Nomi Marks: Hactivist Extraordinaire

[darkestboy]

I'm surprised there wasn't a thread for the character.

 

Having watched most of the first season (still a few more to go), I have to admit that along with Lito, Nomi has been one of my favourite characters and Jamie Clayton has been a revelation in the role.

 

Not to mention how fantastic the show has been with her relationship with Amanita as well.

[myril]

from episode 1.12 thread
 

I was a bit meh about Nomi, especially in  the first episodes. But then I started to like her too. She knows her computers, no doubt. And her scene with Lito, at the museum, was a thing of beauty.

 

Admittedly I'm biased when it comes to Nomi, because she is the character I find most relatable (genderfluid, nonconforming myself, but very different story). I find it interesting though that a lot of people seem to have a problem with her in the first episodes, and wonder why. So I am now asking, is there something more specific you find meh about Nomi in the first episodes? I know first impressions are something we often enough just have and barely think about it to explain. But was it the character, the acting, the story, more a general impression, something specific, a mix of these things? I don't want to judge, just understand better. Welcome others to bring in their thoughts here.

[Helena Dax]

from episode 1.12 thread

 

 

Admittedly I'm biased when it comes to Nomi, because she is the character I find most relatable (genderfluid, nonconforming myself, but very different story). I find it interesting though that a lot of people seem to have a problem with her in the first episodes, and wonder why. So I am now asking, is there something more specific you find meh about Nomi in the first episodes? I know first impressions are something we often enough just have and barely think about it to explain. But was it the character, the acting, the story, more a general impression, something specific, a mix of these things? I don't want to judge, just understand better. Welcome others to bring in their thoughts here.

 

It's difficult to explain, these things are so  subjective! I guess it was for a couple of reasons. In those first episodes she was a complete victim and her plot was a bit like a Very Special Episode. I totally understand  that  trans people suffer a lot of discrimination and media needs to show that, but sometimes it's like being  taught a lesson you already know, which  isn't very compelling unless it's very well done. And everything about her in those first episodes felt a bit over the top. I mean, someone like her would have made sure  that her mother never could  be  in position to make those kind of choices for her. Amanita never went to talk to the media. The LGTB community in San  Francisco wasn't threatening to demolish  the hospital. Even if I can fanwank that the evil organization was manipulating  things, I felt a bit manipulated too. I want to  be manipulated, of course;  I want to cry and laugh with the characters, but I don't want to notice it. 

[jhlipton]

The LGTB community in San  Francisco wasn't threatening to demolish  the hospital. E

 

This was probably the one thing that stood out for me.  SF has a very strong, very active and very accepted LGBT community (the drag queen theaters of Castro Street are civic landmarks).  One word to the community, especially around Pride Week would have brought thousands of protesters to the hospital.

[JillPole]

Her plotline in the first two episodes almost turned me off the show. It was a lecture, and not an entertaining one. Establishing characters through actions and decisions is how you get viewers invested. Capheus was an optimistic guy trying to get customers, Will was a good guy cop who saves kids, Lito was an actor in a terrible movie and obviously the comedy part of the show, Wolfgang was a daddy-issue ridden diamond thief, Sun was stressing about the files and trying to be heard in the company. I got a sense of what made these characters tick, and the scenes set up storylines that we would be watching for the rest of the season. But Nomi's scenes in the first episode were about her identity labels, not about who she was as a person, and certainly not about her storyline going forward. We got a whole thing about AIDS in the 80s for no reason. She and Amanita weren't characters. They were social issue mouthpieces in a poorly executed Very Special Episode. 

 

The second the plot kicked in (when she started chatting with Jonas, and Amanita was vowing to get her out of the creepy hospital), I started liking them. The second she got out and started hacking and being awesome (doing things!), I liked them even more, just as much as anyone else in the cast. The stuff about her identity was handled much more organically later on, and so much more effectively. Kala only got two short introductory scenes in the pilot and that was fine, because her stuff was meant to unfold a bit later. I wish they'd taken that approach with Nomi, and then begun to focus on her in the second episode. 

[myril]

I know, difficult to explain, and of course it is subjective. And interesting to learn more about it, thanks.

 

This was probably the one thing that stood out for me.  SF has a very strong, very active and very accepted LGBT community (the drag queen theaters of Castro Street are civic landmarks).  One word to the community, especially around Pride Week would have brought thousands of protesters to the hospital.

  
Wouldn't this have made it even so much more about Nomi being a transgender woman, and make her and Amanita and their relationship a special thing, not because it's a great relationship, but one between two women? That Nomi is a transgender woman was not the reason she was in the hospital, it was at best complicating things further, probably making it easier for Metzger to get the consent from the family he needed. You're right by the way, Helena Dax, Nomi should have taken precautions and named Amanita has her health care proxy, even more seeing her "nice" family, but how many people have filled an advanced directive? As far as we know the sensates are age end 20s / early 30s - how many people at that age think of that? Have you filled one?
 
I find it a little puzzling, that on one side you have a harder time to warm up with Nomi and her story because of it being perceived as more or less preachy, like being taught a lesson, being too much about her being transgender and lesbian, neglecting to develop the character beyond that, but at the same time you suggest things like the alleged strong LGBTQI community in San Francisco should have been called to the rescue by Amanita, that Amanita should have talked to media, and I guess, to make a big buzz about a transgender woman being mistreated, although what happened to Nomi was not about her being transgender and in a relationship with a woman. As PR person and political activist could say, who cares, make a case, make noise, get attention, force whoever is trying to do whatever out into the light by all means. But would that have helped Nomi in her situation? And was the story with Nomi threatened to be lobotomized about transgender and LGBTQI issues at all? Admittedly the story was clunky at that point with how fast Metzger got consent, depriving Nomi of her right of decision, and the rush for surgery - ignoring likely how much time some procedures actually might take, artistic license plenty of thrillers suffer from.
 
Maybe it was not so clever to make Nomi the character introducing a part of what threats the 8 are facing, because the mistreatment of transgender people and the mistreatment of sensates is too much of a parallel, it was to easy to mistake here one for the other. It seems to me some see too much of transgender issues here although it is about the sensates.
 
Being transgender is a part of Nomi, and IMO we learned a lot about how she ticks with it. It gives her experience in living in a society where still at least some people are rejecting you, questioning you, denying you your identity, forcing you to hide, to lie and pretend, a society trying to cure you, an experience that might be helpful for the cluster to handle what they as sensates are facing now without losing themselves. Questions of identity and integrity are as I see it a general theme in Sense8, questions of gender and sexual identity are maybe an obvious example used to reflect on it.
 
Think Nomi being transgender had to be addressed maybe slightly more, because for a lot of people transgender experience is not something they know much about or have seen much about in movie or TV. That plenty of people know rather little about transgender people is something I see in reactions and questions people do ask online about the character of Nomi or about Jamie Clayton. Right now there seems to be an explosion of visibility for transgender, but that is pretty recent, many people still have little knowledge, many people have a lot of prejudices and only claimed knowledge. As I see it on Sense8 it's though not about showing that transgender people suffer a lot of discrimination, but it was about what makes Nomi the person she is at this moment we meet her, and she happens to be a transgender woman enjoying a stable relationship and life against many odds. As Sun happens to be a woman in a culture conditioned by patriarchal ideals, bottling up her emotions and complying for the sake of her family, as Wolfgang happens to be a man stuck in criminal family tradition and with the ghost of a father who cherished a destructive image of masculinity, or as Capheus is a caring son struggling to make ends meet and get the medication his mother needs by pretty much all means, while he always gets between the frontlines.

 

Maybe it would have been better to put Will into the position of being nearly lobotomized instead of Nomi. Could have worked, he was in therapy as kid because of the Sarah Patrell thing, acted quite crazy, had an accident, and he came close to be kept in hospital. Then Nomi could have been the one to get him out with her hacking skills and some old connections or so.

 

But then we wouldn't have gotten the portrait of the amazing relationship of Amanita and Nomi, the strength a well working relationship can offer (that it's a lesbian one is not important on the show, only in our reception), how Nomi can build on it while doubting herself, how it helps her to cope with the sensations of being a sensate and finding answers, answers helping her and the cluster. Nomi being supported by Amanita while hacking to free Will, Amanita excited to go on some stupid Nancy Drew adventure for Will - don't quite see that having the appeal. As I have doubts that Will's and Riley's relationship would have worked as well as it did in the story as it is.

 

Being someone a bit interested in media studies I find it interesting to see how Nomi and what is told about her is perceived. While I think the transgender aspect of the character is in the story telling of the show just an aspect of the character, not her story and sure not the story of the show, it looks like we as audience struggled at least at the beginning to let go of her being a transgender character, so it interferes with the story told, we see it as a story about transgender issues while it's not. Like a unicorn will always be identified as unicorn and not just as another animal used for riding. It think that goes as much for those craving for more and better transgender representation as for those not concerned with it.
 
 

We got a whole thing about AIDS in the 80s for no reason. 

 

Agreed, it had not so much to do with Nomi, but it was placed quite well IMO and with some thought in the context of Pride celebrations. Capheus' mother though has as far as we know AIDS, so to me this performance reminding of how in the U.S. and other Western countries the reaction to HIV/AIDS were in the 80s was not there with no reason, not some redundant extra social issue message. To some by now it is likely more a history lesson, I was a teenager in the 80s and the panicky reactions and particular the discrimination of gays was one defining moment in building my own (political) views on this world. The situation by now is a different one, as the situation in African nations is a very different one. While in the U.S. or Europe HIV/AIDS has lost most of its menace, in some African nations HIV/AIDS became epidemic and was not a gay issue. The performance was a reminder, how HIV/AIDS had been seen in Western countries, as much as it probably is meant to remind, how we have reacted to what we perceived as epidemic health threats, to give a hunch on how maybe BPO manages to get the funding and support they seem to get.

Additionally, particular in context of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in African nations there is some discussion about business practice of big pharmacy companies, making access for lifesaving drugs a costly thing, rather unavailable in places with high rate of poverty and no health insurance, blocking attempts to produce generic drugs. Some people already speculate about connection with Capheus' mother having AIDS, he getting on the street only drugs with no to little effect, Kala working for a pharmacy company, Sun's family financially involved with one, possible even a connection with the diamonds Wolfgang stole, which came from Mumbai, and maybe even some connection with drug dealer Nyx in London, and then there is BPO being a dubious company studying as they say genetic mutations in humans, possible arguing for medical reasons and better health care, financed by WHO among others, having some influence on U.S. agencies - and the performance about reactions to HIV/AIDS in the 80s can look like an artistic and historical prelude to a bigger story.

And what a contrast, here the artistic memorial to the dead of the past, there the daily struggle to stay alive with AIDS.

 

 

 

 

The second she got out and started hacking and being awesome (doing things!), I liked them even more, just as much as anyone else in the cast. The stuff about her identity was handled much more organically later on, and so much more effectively.

 

Doings things - that seems to be a general thing for a lot of people. You have to kick butts, punch faces, turn cars into scrap, hack computers, shot guns or rockets, build bombs to have a chance to be awesome. Surviving a psychologically toxic and hostile environment, staying rather sane and finding your identity and a great relationship regardless is not enough, neither is to keep on going despite depression and overwhelming feelings of loss pushing or pulling you down. Nor is trying to joggle quite different expectations family, society, work can pose. Not that kick-butt, that stuff is more for chicken and soap drama is it, not so scifi action story worthy. ;-)

Edited August 19, 2015 by myril

[jhlipton]

Wouldn't this have made it even so much more about Nomi being a transgender woman, and make her and Amanita and their relationship a special thing, not because it's a great relationship, but one between two women?

Your whole post is awesome.

I think that getting the LGBQT community would not have worked for plot reasons, but it did stand out due to the the time and place of Nomi's forced hospitalization. We as the audience know she was getting surgery for an sensatectomy, but here mom thought they were going to "cut the gay out".  As far as characterization goes, I thought that we met Nomi as a loving, sexual (and how!) woman -- that she was trans was part of her plot, not necessarily the defining part of her character.

Doings things - that seems to be a general thing for a lot of people. You have to kick butts, punch faces, turn cars into scrap, hack computers, shot guns or rockets, build bombs to have a chance to be awesome.

I think it's the contrast. Lito, Will, Wolfgang, Capheus and Sun are all action-oriented (Sun might have had the Nomi-Riley "problem" if we didn't see the fight sequence). Riley and Nomi (and Sun in business-woman mode) have more emotional and quieter scenes, and less bang-pow-zoom.

Edited August 19, 2015 by jhlipton

[JillPole]

 

Doings things - that seems to be a general thing for a lot of people. You have to kick butts, punch faces, turn cars into scrap, hack computers, shot guns or rockets, build bombs to have a chance to be awesome. Surviving a psychologically toxic and hostile environment, staying rather sane and finding your identity and a great relationship regardless is not enough, neither is to keep on going despite depression and overwhelming feelings of loss pushing or pulling you down.

I wasn't at all saying that quieter, less ass-kicking characters are less interesting. Kala and Lito are among the least overtly 'awesome' characters, but theirs were the stories I was most invested in because of how quietly believable their struggles were. So, no, a lack of butt-kicking is not at all the reason I had a hard time connecting with Nomi in the beginning. It's that Nomi's introductory scenes were simply not entertaining and didn't set up a story for her. When I say "doing things", I mean anything that feels like part of a story, no matter what kind of activity it is. Lito's movie-making scenes in the pilot were hilarious and showed him doing things relevant to his day-to-day life. And the whole bit with the nun actress made me in interested to find out what his deal was--why he was rejecting hot women in the most awkward way. His overarching storyline tackled a lot of social issue themes, but from the get-go it was done in a way that was a story. Staying sane when people are trying to shut out your voice is definitely a compelling theme, but it isn't a story on its own. Nomi's introduction did a lot of theme discussion, but it didn't tell me much about what she or her day-to-day life was like the way I got with everyone else, and it didn't launch a story. I think a lot of the themes that were introduced there with her were super important to the whole show (like the AIDS issues, and big pharma and drugs, and finding support and your place and your voice where you least expect it), and they're really great themes. But the exposition through her wasn't the best at first. Then it got great. And would have been great if done in any organic narrative way, even if she'd ended up being less overtly "I'm a super awesome computer hacker." 

[myril]

Staying sane when people are trying to shut out your voice is definitely a compelling theme, but it isn't a story on its own. Nomi's introduction did a lot of theme discussion, but it didn't tell me much about what she or her day-to-day life was like the way I got with everyone else, and it didn't launch a story.

 

I disagree, to me it is a story on it's own. Questioning your identity and sanity can be a very real struggle, even more so when you see strange things, are told you're hallucinating and that there is something wrong with your brain by a doctor. Believable and relatable for me.

Nomi's life was the first to get pretty much messed up by the rebirth as sensate, so we didn't get to see as much day-to-day of her so far life. They had to start with someone. I hadn't the impression that we learned much about the day-to-day life of the others though either, they are all put into some sort of crisis situation, which are more or less unrelated to the sensate story (in season 1, there could be more to them). Nomi is the first to encounter threats coming with being a sensate, with her and Will the sensate story is moved along.

 

Right, not setting up much of a story for her alone. There is no discovering a security breach in a computer-system of one her clients to put her into a difficult or dangereous situation, there is no relationship crisis with her girlfriend because of family disapproving, or whatever. Nomi is shown having had finally a good life and relationship when the sensate crap hits her, while the others seem to have life dramas happening even without that. Exception maybe Will. 

[Holmbo]

I think sometimes the level of emotional connection one has to a story can affect how original it feels. Like when watching a political speech, people who agree with the values of the politician might feel it was a brilliant speech, very inspiring. While someone else who has different values might just feel like it was a cliché speech they've heard a hundred times before. None of them are right or wrong. It's all about what resonates emotionally I think.

 

I think Nomi's plot was clunky at times but I like both her and Amanita as characters. I also like their roles as the clusters tech support :)

Edited August 21, 2015 by Holmbo

[possibilities]

I love how open she is-- she's just talking about seeing people, being a sensate, there's no big "coming out" drama; and Neets and Neets' mom are totally unphased. It's comfortable, it's "normalized"-- and I really related to that, because I've been in situations where very "strange" things were happening either to me or to someone I was close to, and to us it felt normal, not a big drama, but from an outside view, we knew that our normal was very weird to other people. And how rare is that ever shown in any kind of media? Everything is portrayed as a melodramatic, Big Deal, but in everyday life, there really are people who just deal with whatever it is that's happening, and are not prone to histrionics. I love that about Nomi and Amanita and their family/friends. Even Bug, who I found creepy and off-putting, is not really about drama. He just kind of rolls with whatever, and does what he does, without getting all worked up. And yet, it's not that any of these people lack passion. It's not a choice between apathy/zombie/numbness and freaking out/angsty/melodrama. More than anything else, I love, love, love this about Nomi's characterization. She's not steely, but she's not jello either.

[atlanticslide]

I actually Nomi to be overall the least interesting of the group. I warmed up to her over the course of the season, but I agree with others that she didn't have a whole lot going on in the beginning.  Right off the bat in the first few episodes, every other character has their own storyline going on and we can get a sense of who they are. We're dropped in the middle of things - Kala is about to marry someone she doesn't love, Lito is hiding his homosexuality for his career, Riley is mixed up with some shady drug dealers, Will is trying to be a good cop and juggling his morals with the cops vs. gangs culture of Chicago, Capheus is trying to kickstart his business and care for his ailing mother, Sun is struggling to have her voice in her family's business especially as things go south, Wolfgang is stealing diamonds and is in a conflict with his cousin, Nomi is... chilling with her girlfriend. Everything about her for the first couple of episodes is exposition. And while I have a pretty good sense of the individual personalities for the others, Nomi is just kind of a blank slate - she's nice and she's brave and she's nerdy and that's kind of it.

 

I also just don't care for Nomi/Amanita. I think part of it is that I actually found Jamie Clayton to be the weakest actress of the bunch and didn't think she and Freema Agyeman had much chemistry. There were moments that I loved them - pretty much everything with Amanita breaking Nomi out of the hospital and later on when Nomi escaped the cops at Amanita's mother's house, I could totally see them as a couple fiercely in love and loyal to one another - but most of the rest of the time their relationship felt over the top and inauthentic. Just too perfect, too cutesy - the whole episode in which they decide to break into Metzger's apartment, between "what would Nacy Drew Do" and "we could totally be a crime-fighting duo!" it felt like bad fanfiction to me.

 

Nomi on her own I mostly liked, and I liked her scenes with the other Sense8s, but in general she was the least interesting to me and the Nomi/Amanita relationship kind of dragged her down.

Edited August 30, 2015 by atlanticslide

[ToxicUnicorn]

myril asked:

 

But would that have helped Nomi in her situation? And was the story with Nomi threatened to be lobotomized about transgender and LGBTQI issues at all?

 

and jhlipton said:

 

...Nomi's forced hospitalization. We as the audience know she was getting surgery for an sensatectomy, but here mom thought they were going to "cut the gay out".  As far as characterization goes, I thought that we met Nomi as a loving, sexual (and how!) woman -- that she was trans was part of her plot, not necessarily the defining part of her character.

 

I agree with this interpretation of the story from jhlipton.  I was convinced that the story was about the crazy mom trying to force Nomi to have the surgery against Nomi's will ... "cut the gay out" pretty much describes what I thought the mom's motivation was, and I thought Nomi believed this as well.  The idea was horrifying, but as a plot point, it also defied plausibility.  It wasn't until much later that I understood Nomi's surgery was being planned because there is some evil plot to de-sense8 people.  Honestly, I'm still pretty confused about what the evil side is doing, so it's hard for me to relate to Nomi on that level.  It was just a case of either a) not really believing one possible threat to her, or b) being too confused by the other threat to realize it was an interesting story, and c) not knowing the character well enough to be invested in her fate either way (except at a cerebral level), at the series' beginning.

 

In Season 2, if something were going to happen to Nomi, I'd be upset at an emotional level.  But, yes, at the beginning, I wasn't very emotionally invested in her, except in a socially conscious/responsible kind of way.

[doesntworkonwood]

I just finished watching both seasons of sense8 and I'm going to have to agree with @atlanticslide. Nomi is the least interesting of the bunch, and I find a lot of her scenes nonsensical. She hits those 'Mary Sue' character traits for me. Anyone who doesn't 100% like her is evil, and everyone else, like Amanita and Bugs, drop everything for her, even when she's not telling them the whole truth. She talks a lot in metaphors, so nothing she says feels real, and when she's not doing that she's only taking a few seconds to hack into government organisations and Amanita is suddenly capable of doing that as well? 

[madam magpie]

I'm currently in the middle of season two, and Nomi is solidly my favorite of the core eight. I find her to be admirably open, compassionate, and loving and understandably scared, hesitant, and sometimes detached. She embodies both brains and heart in a lovely way. Basically, someone has been trying to kill her (literally or metaphorically) all her life. I don't find any of her behaviors strange or cliched or unbelievable given that fact. (I do find the dialogue on this show cliched sometimes, but that's the writing, not the character or plot.) Her relationship with Amanita is a great portrayal of something healthy in the face of a lot of very unhealthy things, and I find it super fun and charming to watch. I also really like that both she and Amanita have commented on how smart the other is multiple times, suggesting a cerebral attraction. They're both turned on by intellect, and I always love that.

Edited May 19, 2017 by madam magpie

[Danny Franks]

I think Nomi's dry nature, and quite stoic personality mean that she bounces off some of the other sensates really well. Lito, Capheus, Kala and Will are more expressive and energetic, so it's not surprising that you see Nomi with them more than with, for example, Sun or Wolfgang, whose stillness and quietness don't mesh as well. And of course, Amanita is a bundle of energy all the time.

I agree she's probably not the strongest actor of the bunch but let's face it, these are some strong actors.

I won't beat around the bush with this, I find Jamie Clayton hot. And while that might seem an obvious statement to make, to a lot of people, I've not had much experience seeing trans women in my life (that I know of), but I accepted being attracted to her without even questioning it. This show causes viewers to broaden their horizons and challenge their own preconceptions, just as much as it does the characters.