Books vs. the Show (2015)

[skyways]

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I was less understanding about why the actress came back for Mark.  It seemed she must have seen him as a way out of the road show business, but I didn't get what she was expecting or why she was disappointed when she saw the house he was providing for her.  I never got why she would be expecting more from a working man in a small village, since she should have some idea what life was like in these places.

 

And that is the main crux of the issue and why I felt this episode was disjointed. Mark and Keren weren't properly introduced and yet her commenting on the house was.  In the book she's an aspiring actress with a travelling team with a knack for attracting men, and escaping what she saw was a life of uncertainty. Mark made a play for her and she played hard to get insisting that he build a house for her first before she would agree to marry him. Of course she thought the house would be livable (In the book it really wasn't) so her disappointment in her choice began that first day. Did you notice her flirting with the doctor? This will come into play big time.

 

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Liked the growth in confidence for Demelza and how she was smoothly misdirecting Ross about her and Verity's visit to the shops.  Being all "I couldn't choose between the colors so I'll have to go back. Hey Verity, want to do this again next week?"  Now that Francis is no longer a man of means, can poor Verity go ahead and make her own choice of the captain and get out of Francis' house?  One less mouth to feed, right

 

 This whole incident is very significant. Won't say anymore.

 

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What I noticed in that scene was how comfortable he was in talking with Verity while he was staring at the two women (Demelza and Elizabeth). He forgot he was talking to another woman when she (IMHO jesting) suggested he might like to have them both. Her expression at his response was priceless.  I think now-a-days we'd label that expression TMI!

 

 

That was hilarious. Poor Verity wished she could stop her ears!! But do you know what I liked here? It reminded me of when Ross in the book pondered about Verity - that if it was allowed that he could marry two women, he would have liked to marry Verity just for her kindness and generosity of spirit. I thought that was really nice.

[skyways]

Do folks find it believable that Dwight would go for Keren? In the book , I believed it and I didn't see anything wrong with this adaptation. I also appreciated that they gave me a good reason why Demelza would go on to do what she did next. In the book, her reasons (other than a good heart) didn't come across to me. Bye Mark Daniel - please stay long wherever you are going. I felt his bit went on too long and deterred from the ending I was really looking forward to.

All in all a good episode that stuck close to the book. I loved meeting Captain McNeill - Demelza next admirer.

[Llywela]

Do folks find it believable that Dwight would go for Keren? In the book , I believed it and I didn't see anything wrong with this adaptation. I also appreciated that they gave me a good reason why Demelza would go on to do what she did next. In the book, her reasons (other than a good heart) didn't come across to me. Bye Mark Daniel - please stay long wherever you are going. I felt his bit went on too long and deterred from the ending I was really looking forward to.

All in all a good episode that stuck close to the book. I loved meeting Captain McNeill - Demelza next admirer.

I haven't got to Keren's death in the book, but I remember being really disturbed by Mark killing her in the '75 adaptation and the way everyone villified her afterward while absolving Mark of all responsibility. This version had the killing far more ambiguous - manslaughter rather than outright murder - but I still find it a disturbing storyline all round, especially since Keren has been such a cipher, a walking plot device who was never given a point of view or clear motivation.

 

Also...again, I haven't got this far in the books, but I doubt Captain MacNeill will show up there as another old war buddy of Ross the way he did here!

[skyways]

In the book I thought it was murder. I'll check but I thought he strangled her ( the book made a note of emphasizing his sheer physical strength with huge muscles). As for Keren, I thought it worked well that it was physical attraction on her part. Also, she was drawn to Dwight as a genteel and educated doctor not an unwashed miner, she was drawn as someone who wanted more from her life than staying home in a crumbling house with an illiterate husband. Yes she wasn't given her point of view but their minimalist approach was ok too.

 

 

After edit: (thanks Numbercruncher)  I just checked and he indeed murdered her as opposed to an intentional accident.  Also Llywella, McNeill was indeed an old war mate of Ross. They knew each other before he showed up in their house. Frankly I'm relieved he's a bit a good-looking so I can at least understand why Demelza would even consider him. The 70's version Capt. looked like a grandpa to me.

Edited April 20, 2015 by skyways

[skyways]

I remain in two minds over the whole season. It's been very pretty and the actors have given it their all, but overall I'm more disappointed than delighted with this adaptation. It's been decent, but on the clunky side, lacking nuance and depth - and could have been so, so much better

 

 

I agree with this. Some changes are inexplicable like Elizabeth coming to nurse Demelza when that never happened. I thought the character Elizabeth has suffered most in terms of depth. How will this adaptation explain the later events with Elizabeth/George and Ross?  Will the character she's painted so far be 'in character' when the Warleggan events happen? I don't see it. This friendship with Demelza is completely in the screen writer's head and with this BBC over-heating over a faux love triangle, such was never portrayed on the screen yet at this point in the book, it's alive and well.

[Latverian Diplomat]

This interpretation has a very progressive Ross. In the books I think he is a bit more of a man of his time. 

 

A little of his resentment of the Warleggans in the books is that they are "upstarts". (Plenty of other reasons to dislike them of course). Here of course, he says he doesn't care about that and admires aspiration.

 

And in the books he is not immune to the charms of Elizabeth as the frail aristocratic beauty. To modern sensibilities, even in the book Demelza far more engaging and lovable a person; that Ross in the books can't always see that is something that, IMHO, marks him as still somewhat a man of his time and class. The more progressive Ross of this version, it's practically unimaginable that he is attracted to Elizabeth at all, though of course they do have a history.

 

Over all I've really enjoyed this. Turner and Tomlinson are just a joy to watch.

[skyways]

I wonder if he realizes that she went to Trenwith to care for the little boy, Francis and Elizabeth because she felt so badly and guilty (as her actions led to the loss of Verity from the house.) And wanted to make everything better between the two families.

 

 

Yes in the book he was very bitter about this - how Demelza saved Geoffrey Charles and sacrificed Julia for it. He was embittered by what he perceived as injustice meaning that Demelza should have left all alone.  Let them rot! The screenwriter changed up a few things towards the end such as Elizabeth going to nurse Demelza in return ( She and Francis never even went to funeral) and that proclamation he made to Elizabeth about Demelza - that never happened. The episode didn't sadden me as I was aware of all the events. I watched it rather critically and everything went well, almost according to the book until the end. Again it makes me wonder how the screen writer will maneuver her way out of this corner with these changes come the later episodes in the next series.

 

 But, in answer to your question it was towards the end of the next book that made all of Demelza's efforts worthwhile and really appreciated.

[Llywela]

The screenwriter changed up a few things towards the end such as Elizabeth going to nurse Demelza in return ( She and Francis never even went to funeral) and that proclamation he made to Elizabeth about Demelza - that never happened.

I agree completely about the changes made - deliberately done to try to stoke up a love triangle that isn't, really. But I hasten to add that Elizabeth and Francis not going to the funeral wasn't a deliberate snub - both were far too weak still, their illness carrying a recovery time of weeks rather than days. Some of the changes made from the book left glaring plot holes here - like the fact that in the show, the Paynters haven't been replaced, so Ross and Demelza are short-staffed. Seems insignificant, the couple hired as replacement in the book are only background characters, but by not including them you end up on dodgy ground when you show Demelza heading off to Trenwith, giving Jinny instructions to put Julia to bed if she's not back in time, and then staying away overnight. The problem with that being that Jinny doesn't live in - she has a toddler of her own to go home to at night. So who was looking after Julia all night, if John and Jane Gimlett aren't there in this version? We aren't told!

 

Mark and Keren's story suffered the most in this adaptation, though - I couldn't even comment on episode 7, I was too angry about it - subtle changes that don't impact the plot but are very significant to the characters. And Francis has suffered from certain changes, as well.

 

Two things I really missed from the book in this episode - first of all Julia's funeral. Here we were shown Ross carrying the coffin to church all alone apart from Dwight, a lonely and isolated figure. At the church we saw about a dozen people, most of them gentry - the only ones the camera picked out were Ross's business partners and Francis (who should have been on his sickbed still). In the book, the coffin was carried by the children of some of Ross's tenant families and became a massive procession, with three or four entire villages turning out to follow behind - about 300-400 people, a huge demonstration of community solidarity, the people Ross has cared for and worked for turning out to grieve with him, all of them poor, common folk, which is why he's so worried about not having provided for them in his grief. A subtle change, but significant. Also, in the book when Ross takes out that unsecured loan of £1000, he sets aside a portion of it to loan on to one of the Carnmore shareholders who has gone bankrupt, hoping to keep the man out of debtor's prison. I found that really touching and was sorry not to see it here.

 

ETA - I was very amused by the Warleggans receiving so many of what seemed almost like instant Twitter updates on the progress of the wreck! My, the news was travelling fast considering it must be taken on foot or horseback!

Edited April 29, 2015 by Llywela

[photo fox]

A place to discuss the novels and compare them to the show.

[Llywela]

*I think it's the American in me that reflexively recoils from the idea that making money and improving your lot in life is declasse and that old blood/family makes you intrinsically better.

This adaptation doesn't do a good job at all with the characters, but the reason Ross dislikes the Warleggans so intensely isn't that they've improved their lot in life, it's the way they go about it. Their one goal is to make profit by any means. They will buy up six functional mines and close four of them, so that the remaining two have a monopoly on production and push prices up, increasing profit - and to hell with the entire communities left to starve because their one source of employment has been removed. There are others within the story who also improve their lot in life, without censure; what makes the Warleggans stand out is that they do it at the expense of others and don't care.

[Llywela]

Thanks for this topic! It's hard to know where to begin, there are so many comparisons and contrasts to be drawn.

 

I'll start by saying that my entry into this world came through the 1975 adaptation, which I watched a couple of years ago and absolutely adored. When I heard that a new adaptation had been commissioned, I was both excited and nervous, and awaited it with great interest. When it aired earlier this year, I started watching in confident expectation of being delighted...yet found that my overall reaction was mixed. There was much that I liked about it, but I also found there were many ways in which it failed to live up to my memories of the earlier version - being more focused on telling its story through beautiful visuals, in contrast to the other version's focus on character interaction, it felt increasingly superficial. About halfway through I decided I needed a baseline for comparison and thus entered the world of the books, and was instantly won over. I'm currently halfway through book 7 out of 12 and loving every moment.

 

Overall, now that I'm familiar with the original story as told by Winston Graham, I've decided that neither version really does justice to it. Both make very specific choices which impact on their telling of the story. Both make significant changes to that story. Both have strengths, both have weaknesses.

 

My biggest disappointment with the 2015 adaptation has been its presentation of the supporting characters, which is extremely superficial. It has chosen to tell a very narrowly focused story about Ross Poldark, presenting him as a great romantic hero, with the result that only the characters closest to him receive much in the way of exploration or development, while all others are left on the periphery, and some are actively misrepresented in order to make Ross look better. Francis in particular suffers in this regard, as does Keren Daniel. Book!Francis has so many shades, he's a really mercurial character - high-spirited, intelligent, witty and wry as well as insecure and depressive with self-destructive tendencies. This adaptation shows only his faults and none of his strengths, while also exaggerating his faults. Book!Francis does not lose the mine in a game of cards; although he does lose a lot of money at the card table that might have been better spent on his business and family, nothing could have saved Grambler, which was a very old, rambling mine that was no longer efficient, costing more to run than it did to operate; its closure in the books is a long time coming but ultimately inevitable, especially given its Warleggan debts and their ruthless business practices.

 

One thing that comes across in every version of the story, though, is Ross's self-centredness and sense of entitlement where Elizabeth is concerned. He acts as times as if he feels he owns her because he loved her first - how dare she move on with her life, how dare Francis fall in love with her, it's all me, me, me, never a thought for the feelings of others. It's a very human flaw, and a very consistent facet of Ross's personality, but not his most admirable quality!

 

Dwight is another character I feel got rather short shrift in the new adaptation - I really loved 1975 Dwight (especially the first one), and he's a really important character in the books, but 2015 Dwight has been little more than a cipher so far, and that despite playing a major role in a major sub-plot. It doesn't bode well.

 

On the other hand, as much as I still love Angharad Rees's performance as Demelza in 1975, I do feel that Eleanor Tomlinson's version is much closer to Book!Demelza.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts to share?

[Milz]

 

Also, Demelza's awkward shuffling and staggering around  was supposed to represent characterization or growth or something?  It looked to me like a hilariously literal drama student's interpretation of rode hard and put up wet.

 

I think it's a silly way to portray the "awkward teenaged years".

 

 

This is one of my biggest regrets about this adaptation - it gives such a horrible presentation of Francis, exaggerating all his faults while showing none of his strengths to balance them out. This storyline is a good example, because the Poldarks have really good reason to be afraid for Verity's future with Blamey, yet the story is so rushed there is no opportunity to explore all the nuance, the way all these different personalities and perspectives play off one another to end up in this huge mess.

 

The production is very choppy, even without any cuts - it is beautiful to watch, but relies heavily on visuals to tell the story, with a bare minimum of meaningful character interaction, which makes it very hard to get to know the characters properly. Francis isn't the only one who suffers in that regard, although his is one of the worst cases.

 

This production makes Francis out to be an easily manipulated milksop and a potential cuckold. I agree about the  rushed Verity-Blamey romance: she meets him at the Ball and a couple of days later they want to get married. I wish it was more faithful to the book where Blamey is a guest at Francis' wedding and that's where she and Blamey start their romance. I also wish it was more faithful to the book that Elizabeth didn't rush over to Nampara to beg for Ross' help with the situation and rush to Nampara again to collect the injured Francis and tell Ross, "Oh by the way, I'm pregnant."  And finally I wish it was more faithful to the book where Francis wasn't as gravely injured requiring Ross to perform battle field emergency medicine on him. In the book, after Francis is carried into the house, he regains consciousness and is okay because the wound is minor, just like Blamey's hand wound.

 

I know that they want to viewer to understand from the beginning that George Warleggan is the bad dude. But,  whispering into Francis' ear at every opportunity to convey that to the viewer is really insulting. And the implication that, George is a pimp who has Margaret the whore waiting for Ross to come along. What's next? George is importing opium from China so we know how much of a big time gansta he is?

 

I kind of took Francis' rush to get Verity away from that guy as nothing to do with her, he just realized that if she got married there would be no one to take care of his dad and distract Elizabeth from Ross.

 

If anything else was on I probably would watch it over this. I am having trouble following the story and also, find the entire production choppy. I can't tell if it is because of the cuts or what.

 

Ross definitely should have let his cousin die. That guy looks like he will do nothing but bring grief to everyone around him for the rest of his life.

 

In the books there is a underlying subtext that the reason Charles and Francis didn't want Verity to get married and have her own family is because Elizabeth is too frail and too delicate to run Trenwith by herself. This Elizabeth isn't  that frail and isn't  that delicate if she can walk or horseback ride from Trenwith to Nampara and back again while in her first trimester.

[Llywela]

That seemed pretty clear to me.

Well, I thought it was made reasonably clear, as well, but the comment I was replying to indicated that perhaps it wasn't.

 

I'm not sure it's true that Ross has picked up a trade, so much - not if it's the mine you're referring to, since mining has been in the family for generations. He is, however, a much more natural businessman than his cousin, as well as being far more hands-on by nature. Both Ross and Francis belong to the paternalist tradition of local squires, the old social contract between landowner and tenant, wherein the tenants work for the landowner, who in turn looks after their best interests - an imperfect system but one that has existed for centuries and that most of the community is comfortable with. The Warleggans represent the impending industrial revolution, which is just about to turn that old social order upside down - more welcome to some than others!

I am actually finding the business plotting to be the most interesting part of this whole thing.  Both of the love interest plots are kind of predictable.

That's probably in the main because the original story was never conceived as a love triangle, as such, however much this adaptation tries to play it that way - the story is an ill-fit for the style.

In the books there is a underlying subtext that the reason Charles and Francis didn't want Verity to get married and have her own family is because Elizabeth is too frail and too delicate to run Trenwith by herself. This Elizabeth isn't  that frail and isn't that delicate if she can walk or horseback ride from Trenwith to Nampara and back again while in her first trimester.

Yeah, the apparent fragility of Book!Elizabeth is the major selling point of her character throughout the books - although it is also frequently underlined that she isn't actually as delicate as those around her tend to believe. She even says as much outright in one of the books, when someone is gushing over her all, "oh, Elizabeth, you are so fragile and beautiful, all I want in the world is to look after you as you need and deserve," and Elizabeth's immediate response is, "I am stronger than I look." But it is her primary characteristic: that she is the last scion of an ancient noble house with centuries of good breeding behind her, and looks and behaves exactly as a gentlewoman should. She looks beautiful and vulnerable and fragile, which makes men want to worship at her feet and look after her. None of it has anything to do with who she is as a person or how capable she actually is or isn't. It's all about the appearance of vulnerability, that's what sucks 'em all in.

 

In a sense, I suppose, that takes us back to the precipice of the industrial revolution, in as much as genteel Elizabeth represents the past whereas Demelza represents the new trend toward social mobility.

 

I know that they want to viewer to understand from the beginning that George Warleggan is the bad dude. But,  whispering into Francis' ear at every opportunity to convey that to the viewer is really insulting.

Yeah. The compression of the story in this adaptation really does lead to over-simplification at times, and it's a shame because the source material is so rich. The rivalry between Ross and George is much more of a slow burn in the books. There's a lot this adaptation does right - but there's also a lot it does wrong. One of the problems, I think, is that this version tries to rush through a sub-plot a week, rather than allowing the various sub-plots to interweave slowly, playing out over a period of time, as they should.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

I watched the 70s version in the 80s, the rewatched it in the early 2000s, then read the books shortly thereafter.

 

I've only watched the first 2 episodes of the '15 version, but so far the claim that it's true to the books is the Ross-Demelza story, Charles, Aunt Agatha and maybe Verity. But it misses the boat on Elizabeth,  and Jud and Prudie. In the first episode I think they did a good job with Francis now I'm not too sure.

 

They're also changing the timeline. By this time in the books, we already know the Mellin tenants and the awful Clemmow brothers. Lots of things that happen in Mellin come back to haunt Ross (even if he had no part in it like Benjy's paternity).

[Milz]

 

That being said, even though Ross does care about Verity, I can't say I thought he was totally right in sanctioning the relationship with Blamey.  I'm just really suspicious of a guy who says, "but my wife hit me first!" to explain how said wife ended up dead.

 

This is something they should not have rushed through. In the book, Ross and Verity are very close like brother-sister-BFF. Verity is the only Trenwith Poldark who visits Ross with any regularity. So Ross knows Verity more than Charles or Francis. When Verity tells Ross about Blamey's past, Ross takes her word for it  that Blamey has reformed. He also has the attitude that Verity is so much in love with Blamey that it doesn't matter if he was a drunk and  wife killer.

[Milz]

Actually, I think that all came through in those scenes.  I'm just saying, no matter how much he trusts Verity's judgment, he should be much more skeptical of Blamey.  I don't think that my disagreement with his sanctioning of the relationship has anything to do with the adaptation, but with the decision the character made to support the relationship.  Like I said, I haven't read the books but given Blamey's past, I doubt that any further explanation on either Verity's or Ross's part would make me think it was a good idea.

 

One of the themes of the books is putting the past in the past and getting on in the present and future. Mostly the women do this in the books while the men are stuck in the past, especially Ross and George.

[Milz]

The way that Verity described it to Ross, she said that Blamey said that his wife went to hit him first and he pushed her away (and then I think she fell and hit her head).  I mean, I am perfectly happy to stipulate that we are supposed to believe that Blamey didn't beat his wife to death but that they got into an altercation that accidentally led to her death.  But his explanation sent up a whole host of red flags to my 21st century ears, red flags that likely Graham didn't intend to send when he wrote the books.

 

And similarly, the fact that he paid his debt to society wouldn't mean much to me with regard to whether or not I would want a family member to get involved with him.  A person can live a perfectly productive life after spending time in prison, and that is good - but that still wouldn't mean I would want a cousin to marry that guy.

 

I wish they kept true to the book. Graham's version was

Blamey is a drunk. In a drunken stupor he pushed his wife who fell. The rumor that Charles and Francis heard was that Blamey was drunk and kicked his pregnant wife and killed her. Blamey loses his naval commision, spends a couple of years in jail and swears off the drink. 

  

 

I think Ross' point of view is that Blamey paid for the death with his naval career, his children (in the book he and his wife had two children), and his own incarceration and Blamey has remained sober, so give him a chance.

[Llywela]

They're also changing the timeline. By this time in the books, we already know the Mellin tenants and the awful Clemmow brothers. Lots of things that happen in Mellin come back to haunt Ross (even if he had no part in it like Benjy's paternity).

Both TV adaptations remove Jinny and Jim's entire sub-plot with the stalker, which is a shame - I love the way that plays out in the books, events that resonate for so long afterward. It's a good example of the way events weave together through the books: the courtship played out in a corner of the Martin house because Jinny won't go out for fear of the stalker, Ross driving the stalker away and giving them a cottage to encourage an early marriage, hoping it will help protect Jinny, Reuben Clemmow breaking in and attacking Jinny and the baby while Jim is away - right through to the Clemmow brother later sneaking into the back of the courtroom during Jim's trial and heckling to put Ross off his defence speech, and Benjy's scar that looks so much like Ross's and gives rise to the rumours about his paternity.

 

Both adaptations also give the Carters only one child rather than the three they have in the books, but the '75 version plays their story out over a much longer period of time, showing their courting, their marriage, pregnancy, mention of miscarriages before the baby (Benjy) is eventually born - it is clear that time is passing, although not quite as much as in the books. The story is hugely compressed in the '15 version, by comparison - Jinny already pregnant when they marry and Jim arrested before the baby is even born, so a 3/4 year storyline gets compressed into just a handful of months.

[Milz]

Both TV adaptations remove Jinny and Jim's entire sub-plot with the stalker, which is a shame - I love the way that plays out in the books, events that resonate for so long afterward. It's a good example of the way events weave together through the books: the courtship played out in a corner of the Martin house because Jinny won't go out for fear of the stalker, Ross driving the stalker away and giving them a cottage to encourage an early marriage, hoping it will help protect Jinny, Reuben Clemmow breaking in and attacking Jinny and the baby while Jim is away - right through to the Clemmow brother later sneaking into the back of the courtroom during Jim's trial and heckling to put Ross off his defence speech, and Benjy's scar that looks so much like Ross's and gives rise to the rumours about his paternity.

 

Both adaptations also give the Carters only one child rather than the three they have in the books, but the '75 version plays their story out over a much longer period of time, showing their courting, their marriage, pregnancy, mention of miscarriages before the baby (Benjy) is eventually born - it is clear that time is passing, although not quite as much as in the books. The story is hugely compressed in the '15 version, by comparison - Jinny already pregnant when they marry and Jim arrested before the baby is even born, so a 3/4 year storyline gets compressed into just a handful of months.

 

So I guess they introduce Jinny and Jim in  P15 episode 3 or later?

[Llywela]

So I guess they introduce Jinny and Jim in  P15 episode 3 or later?

Heck, I spoilered you a little there (but this is a spoiler thread, so). Yes, Jim and Jinny are introduced soon in P15. And Dwight, but his introduction is another change - in the books and P75 (I like this shorthand) we see Ross meeting Dwight for the first time and watch the friendship grow from there; in P15 Dwight is introduced as an old friend of Ross from the American wars, and it's a superficial enough change at first glance. It suits the fast pace of this version to skip the getting-to-know-you process...but that getting-to-know-you process is what helps us understand these characters and the relationship they form, the shared ideals that draw them together, and by skipping that we lose out on that - it tells us of the friendship, presenting it as a fait accomplit, rather than showing it as it grows, which helps viewers to bond with the characters and the relationship. Plus, it impacts on our perception of Dwight's background and character if he is introduced as a war veteran rather than the inexperienced recent graduate with a head full of new ideas that he is in the books. It's one of those minor changes where you can see why it was done, but it does have a subtle impact.

 

On the other hand, I'm really happy that Agatha is in this adaptation from the start, as she should be. And I do enjoy Ruby Bentall's Verity.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

I read the books, so there really aren't any spoilers for me. ;-)  The secondary characters have been introduced so quickly or not introduced at all. Clergyman Cousin William Arthur isn't on P15 or P75 as far as I can remember. I'm  not sure if Dr. Choake and his lisping wife Polly have been introduced in P15 either.

 

If P75, P15, PN (Poldark novel) is understandable, let's use it because it's easier to write out that 75 version, Poldark books, 15 verions . :-)

[Llywela]

I read the books, so there really aren't any spoilers for me. ;-)  The secondary characters have been introduced so quickly or not introduced at all. Clergyman Cousin William Arthur isn't on P15 or P75 as far as I can remember. I'm  not sure if Dr. Choake and his lisping wife Polly have been introduced in P15 either.

 

If P75, P15, PN (Poldark novel) is understandable, let's use it because it's easier to write out that 75 version, Poldark books, 15 verions . :-)

Cousin William Arthur definitely isn't on TV in either version, but he never really plays any plot role in the books, he's just around as background colour and then disappears. I'm trying to remember if we've seen Dr Choake yet in the episodes of P15 that you've seen - he's around later, for sure, tending Charles and investing in the mine, etc. Neither adaptation bothers with his wife, though. I suppose she's also background colour rather than playing any plot role.

[Milz]

Cousin WA's most pivotal role is that he was the one who told Charles and Francis Blamey's dark secret. Other than that I'm think he was background only.

[Nidratime]

I had NO idea the galloping was supposed to represent the passage of time.  I'll have to pay more attention to what happens at each end of the gallop.

 

 

Really? Don't you ever wake up in the morning, look out the window, and see a galloping horse go by?

 

 

But Verity retains much of that responsibility because Elizabeth is supposed to be too frail and too delicate to do those things unassisted.

 

 

I'd believe it of the 70's Elizabeth, but this one spends too much time running all over the cliffs of Cornwall.

[Milz]

 

I'd believe it of the 70's Elizabeth, but this one spends too much time running all over the cliffs of Cornwall.

 

 

And rides horses back and forth from Trenwith and Nampara. Seriously though, the lady of the house had lots and lots to do. In the book Verity goes through a list of activities that need her "help" (I take it as what she had to do because Elizabeth was too delicate and fragile to do herself).

[NumberCruncher]

I read the books, so there really aren't any spoilers for me. ;-)  The secondary characters have been introduced so quickly or not introduced at all. Clergyman Cousin William Arthur isn't on P15 or P75 as far as I can remember. I'm  not sure if Dr. Choake and his lisping wife Polly have been introduced in P15 either.

 

 

Cousin William Arthur definitely isn't on TV in either version, but he never really plays any plot role in the books, he's just around as background colour and then disappears. I'm trying to remember if we've seen Dr Choake yet in the episodes of P15 that you've seen - he's around later, for sure, tending Charles and investing in the mine, etc. Neither adaptation bothers with his wife, though. I suppose she's also background colour rather than playing any plot role.

We saw Dr. Choake in the second scene of the new series. He was in the coach when Ross is returning to Cornwall. He is also in the 2nd episode as well as one of the prospective mine investors. In fact, he's given several lines expressing skepticism that the scheme will work.

[Llywela]

 We saw Dr. Choake in the second scene of the new series. He was in the coach when Ross is returning to Cornwall. He is also in the 2nd episode as well as one of the prospective mine investors. In fact, he's given several lines expressing skepticism that the scheme will work.

Thank you! I was fairly certain he was around from early on, but couldn't remember how long it took to identify him, so to speak.

[skyways]

Yes he was introduced in the first episode in the carriage. I like how both versions start with the carriage ride. Also Jim has been introduced. He was the one who told Ross Wheal Wreath has been closed.

Edited June 30, 2015 by skyways

[Milz]

I didn't realize until you said it that P75 and P15 started in the carriage ride.

[Llywela]

Reading some of the comments in the episode two thread really brought home to me how a very slight difference in emphasis, little omissions here and there for the sake of brevity, really can alter viewer perceptions of characters in a big way. There are so many comments in the thread about Charles and Francis not caring about Verity, not wanting her to get married at all, wanting to keep her at home to keep house for them, being more upset by an insult than the thought of her marrying a wife-beater - it's a very different impression of those characters than we get in P75 or the books, and it all stems from a very slight (yet apparently crucial) difference in emphasis, tiny omissions here and there to a storyline that otherwise remains pretty faithful. P75 Charles actively encourages the match in the early days because he wants Verity to get married and have a home and family of her own, rather than end an old maid - it is only when Blamey's past comes out that he opposes the match, and iirc the book is explicit that this is because he can't bear the thought of his sweet, gentle Verity married to a wife killer. He and Francis both believe this would place Verity in danger, that Blamey can't be trusted, that is their objection - and Ross agrees with them at first, until Verity leans on their close friendship to persuade him to trust her judgement and support her. So how did P15 create such a different perception of the family's objections? Mostly, I think, by not showing Charles's initial eagerness for Verity to marry, and by not stressing his fears for her when Blamey's past came out, emphasising instead the pessimistic outlook for Verity as an old maid, making herself useful in her father and brother's home rather than making one of her own. So it's interesting to see how such subtle alterations can have quite an impact on the way characters are perceived, which is mainly what I'm talking about when I say that certain characters don't come off too well in this adaptation.

[Milz]

I'm put off with the P15's "plain girls" angle concerning Verity: ironically, it's a more sexist and paternalistic attitude than the 1945 book and P75. Also, PN makes it clear that Verity is 2 years older than Ross and Francis. If Ross returned home from America at age 22, that would put Verity at age 24, which isn't terribly "old". And while Verity isn't a beauty like Elizabeth, neither are the other marriageable ladies in Sawle or Truro .

[Llywela]

If Ross returned home from America at age 22, that would put Verity at age 24, which isn't terribly "old". And while Verity isn't a beauty like Elizabeth, neither are the other marriageable ladies in Sawle or Truro .

Not terribly old, no, but old enough by the standard of the aristocratic marriage market - which would have been a small enough pool of potential suitors in that part of the world to begin with. Women still found husbands after that age, but the odds were increasingly against them. For a young woman like Verity, gentry but not particularly well off, living out in the sticks and unable to go into society very often, opportunities to meet potential suitors would be few and far between. Hence her eagerness to attend the dance where she met Blamey. But yeah, it wasn't about her being 'plain'.

 

Regarding the age difference between Ross and Verity, there's an amusing little exchange between them in...I think it's book 7, The Angry Tide. Verity is talking to Ross about how she's just turned 40, and he surprises her by asking if she knows when he was born, because although he has a record of his christening, he hasn't been able to find any record of his actual birth and so doesn't know his exact birthdate. Verity doesn't, either, she can only say that she's always thought of herself as 18 months older than him. I guess birthdays weren't celebrated in quite the same way back then to reinforce recollection of the date! Although having said that, old Agatha - several generations older than Ross - knew her birthdate only too well. But then again, the Trenwith Poldarks were scrupulous about recording births in the family Bible. I guess the implication is that the Nampara Poldarks were a bit more slapdash!

Edited July 2, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Not terribly old, no, but old enough by the standard of the aristocratic marriage market - which would have been a small enough pool of potential suitors in that part of the world to begin with. Women still found husbands after that age, but the odds were increasingly against them. For a young woman like Verity, gentry but not particularly well off, living out in the sticks and unable to go into society very often, opportunities to meet potential suitors would be few and far between. Hence her eagerness to attend the dance where she met Blamey. But yeah, it wasn't about her being 'plain'.

 

Regarding the age difference between Ross and Verity, there's an amusing little exchange between them in...I think it's book 7, The Angry Tide. Verity is talking to Ross about how she's just turned 40, and he surprises her by asking if she knows when he was born, because although he has a record of his christening, he hasn't been able to find any record of his actual birth and so doesn't know his exact birthdate. Verity doesn't, either, she can only say that she's always thought of herself as 18 months older than him. I guess birthdays weren't celebrated in quite the same way back then to reinforce recollection of the date! Although having said that, old Agatha - several generations older than Ross - knew her birthdate only too well. But then again, the Trenwith Poldarks were scrupulous about recording births in the family Bible. I guess the implication is that the Nampara Poldarks were a bit more slapdash!

 

I also don't think there were too many eligible men from good families in Verity's age group around either. Thinking about the piece of **** Morwenna was forced to marry, I think staying single would be the lesser of two evils (just my opinion.)

 

I would think Verity's (or anyone else's) eagerness for attending weddings, balls, fairs, etc. wasn't only to meet potential suitors but also because it was entertainment and a break from the daily schedule. These social events were times when you could catch up on gossip, eat food, hang out with your friends, gossip, eat, and dance.

[Llywela]

I also don't think there were too many eligible men from good families in Verity's age group around either. Thinking about the piece of **** Morwenna was forced to marry, I think staying single would be the lesser of two evils (just my opinion.)

 

I would think Verity's (or anyone else's) eagerness for attending weddings, balls, fairs, etc. wasn't only to meet potential suitors but also because it was entertainment and a break from the daily schedule. These social events were times when you could catch up on gossip, eat food, hang out with your friends, gossip, eat, and dance.

Oh yes, very much that too. Some of the later books make a point of observing how lonely and bored Elizabeth was during her marriage to Francis because their forays into society became so few and far between - for Verity, the unmarried sister, there'd be even less opportunity to get out and about.

 

And like I said, the pool of potential suitors would have been very small at the best of times.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Didn't Francis develop a gambling habit and used to got to the Bodrugans alot?

 

BTw, go ahead and spoil me------did they do a decent job with the Bodrugans?

[Llywela]

Didn't Francis develop a gambling habit and used to got to the Bodrugans alot?

 

BTw, go ahead and spoil me------did they do a decent job with the Bodrugans?

I'm going to say no, because they made no impression on me. I know they are there, or Hugh is at least there to flirt with Demelza, but it's all very background. There's very little in-depth exploration of any character beyond Ross's immediate circle (actually, even some of those within that circle aren't fleshed out). This is an adaptation that gives a very broad overview of the story, very pretty to watch, without ever really delving deeply into it.

 

From memory, Francis's gambling was mostly in town or at George's 'gentlemens' parties', but I may be mistaken.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

I'm going to say no, because they made no impression on me. I know they are there, or Hugh is at least there to flirt with Demelza, but it's all very background. There's very little in-depth exploration of any character beyond Ross's immediate circle (actually, even some of those within that circle aren't fleshed out). This is an adaptation that gives a very broad overview of the story, very pretty to watch, without ever really delving deeply into it.

 

From memory, Francis's gambling was mostly in town or at George's 'gentlemens' parties', but I may be mistaken.

Too bad. Sir Hugh and his much younger step mother were comic relief: they were like the gentlefolk's version of the Paynters because both couples are coarse and rather lowbrow.....

 

It makes me uneasy that many of the secondary characters aren't being fully introduced because these characters cumulatively play a large role in the later books. Reuben Clemmow's attack on Jinny and Benjy Ross is a "C" story, until later when Benjy Ross's scar and name is used against Ross.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Milz

[Llywela]

It makes me uneasy that many of the secondary characters aren't being fully introduced because these characters cumulatively play a large role in the later books. Reuben Clemmow's attack on Jinny and Benjy Ross is a "C" story, until later when Benjy Ross's scar and name is used against Ross.

This was the trouble I had watching the series in March. I fully expected to be delighted by it - and was at first - but the narrow focus of the adaptation became increasingly worrisome. Ross is always the central protagonist of the story, Demelza the other primary voice throughout, and both are well handled here...but it isn't their story alone - there are other important voices, other important POVs, and by glossing over them instead of fleshing them out, the story as a whole loses something vital. Or I thought so, at any rate. I won't say more, as I don't want to prejudice you! It is a lovely series to watch, and all literary adaptations have their strengths and weaknesses. But since characters are always of primary importance to me, I am always disappointed when they aren't as well handled as they could be!

 

Neither adaptation deals with Reuben Clemmow and his attack on Jinny and Benjy, and it is a shame as it's a good strong storyline in that first book, and is a good example of the way sub-plots weave together through the narrative as a whole. That's one of the things I love about the books, the way everything overlaps and fits together, and how the series has such a strong sense of its own internal history. Nothing is ever forgotten, and characters can still have a presence even long after they are dead and gone. Francis is always something of a failure in life, but in death he casts a very long shadow, his memory cropping up again and again - and I particularly love how the teenage Geoffrey Charles grows to be his father all over again, bright and mercurial, but with something of Elizabeth's steel thrown in. Agatha manages to leave her mark, which reverberates long after her death. Jim Carter is also never quite forgotten - even years later, when Ross mounts his expedition to spring Dwight from prison in France, he is haunted by the memory of doing likewise for Jim and how he got there too late.

 

I also love the use of POV and unreliable narrators in the novels - we get into the heads of so many characters, and every one of them is the hero of his or her own story, with the reader trusted to read between the lines. Even the central protagonists aren't always right, whether they believe they are or not.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

I always thought the Reuben-Jinny-Jim triangle paralleled the Ross-Elizabeth-Francis one, with the latter being the the more civilized interactions than the former.

[NumberCruncher]

Perspective is an interesting thing because I watched the P15 version before I read the books (I'm currently in the middle of book 2) and honestly, I'm not really all that concerned at the deviations or lack of focus on the minor characters like others seem to be here. In fact, I don't think anything left out of the TV show has detracted from the quality of the storyline in any major way. People in the episode threads are already complaining that the show moves too fast to pick up on everything happening, so I can understand the producers' decision not to place more emphasis on the minor characters. YMMV, of course.

Edited July 2, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[Llywela]

Perspective is an interesting thing because I watched the P15 version before I read the books (I'm currently in the middle of book 2) and honestly, I'm not really all that concerned at the deviations or lack of focus on the minor characters like others seem to be here. In fact, I don't think anything left out of the TV show has detracted from the quality of the storyline in any major way. People in the episode threads are already complaining that the show moves too fast to pick up on everything happening, so I can understand the producers' decision not to place more emphasis on the minor characters. YMMV, of course.

Hehe, I suppose this is where our own individual viewer perspectives come into play! The storylines play out the same either way, all the same plot beats are hit. What most of the changes impact on are viewer perception of characters - as my example above of the Poldark objections to Blamey is a good example. Mileage is always going to vary on these points. For some, it doesn't matter how we react to the characters as long as the story plays out smoothly and makes sense. For others (like myself) the characters are the story, and altering them makes a difference, in some instances more than others. I think this is a very pretty adaptation, I just wish it had a little more depth.

 

I do think, though, that the viewers complaining about the show moving too fast to pick up on everything would actually find it easier if the scenes were a little longer and the supporting characters were fleshed out more, because that time spent getting to know the characters and their situations a bit better makes it easier to follow their storylines and motivations (and the passage of time). It is the rapid cutting from one scenario to another without time to draw breath that can leave folk a bit lost. A more measured pace would be of benefit there. It's very much a stylistic thing, though, and again viewer mileage is always going to vary.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

I think the complaints also stem from assertion that P15 is supposed to be closer to the novels than P75. P75 totally messed up with Ross marrying a pregnant Demelza, but it otherwise kept to the storyline rather well.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Milz

[Nidratime]

What I have to give some thought to is that, even though the 2015 adaptation is covering 2 books in 8 episodes and the 1975 version covered 4 books in 16 episodes -- right?-- I don't get why the '75 version seems richer in character. It seemed to do a better job of fleshing out the community surrounding Poldark without diminishing Ross' storyline. The '75 version did a much better job bringing Prudie, Jud, Zachy Martin, the Daniels, Jim and Jinny as well as the upper class characters, like the Bodruggans, to the screen, let alone the Blamey/Verity storyline. How did they do that with a similar amount of airtime? It felt more like an Upstairs Downstairs/Downton Abbey kind of show wherein, you knew who the main characters were, but you still spent time with many other people so that you felt like you lived in that village and knew everyone. It's a puzzlement.

[Milz]

What I have to give some thought to is that, even though the 2015 adaptation is covering 2 books in 8 episodes and the 1975 version covered 4 books in 16 episodes -- right?-- I don't get why the '75 version seems richer in character. It seemed to do a better job of fleshing out the community surrounding Poldark without diminishing Ross' storyline. The '75 version did a much better job bringing Prudie, Jud, Zachy Martin, the Daniels, Jim and Jinny as well as the upper class characters, like the Bodruggans, to the screen, let alone the Blamey/Verity storyline. How did they do that with a similar amount of airtime? It felt more like an Upstairs Downstairs/Downton Abbey kind of show wherein, you knew who the main characters were, but you still spent time with many other people so that you felt like you lived in that village and knew everyone. It's a puzzlement.

 

I think the major difference between productions before the 1980s and the productions after the 1980s is the amount of effort put into making it look visually pleasing. IIRC on TWoP lots of people joked about the cheesy, cheap sets used in I, Claudius, but there was little joking and mocking the story-telling. Well, P75 was like that, too. To distract from the cheap sets, the story telling---character development, dialogue, direction---had to be very tight and very good. I admit, P15 is very pretty, but from the 2 episodes I've watched, I don't think the story telling is very good.

[Llywela]

What I have to give some thought to is that, even though the 2015 adaptation is covering 2 books in 8 episodes and the 1975 version covered 4 books in 16 episodes -- right?-- I don't get why the '75 version seems richer in character. It seemed to do a better job of fleshing out the community surrounding Poldark without diminishing Ross' storyline. The '75 version did a much better job bringing Prudie, Jud, Zachy Martin, the Daniels, Jim and Jinny as well as the upper class characters, like the Bodruggans, to the screen, let alone the Blamey/Verity storyline. How did they do that with a similar amount of airtime? It felt more like an Upstairs Downstairs/Downton Abbey kind of show wherein, you knew who the main characters were, but you still spent time with many other people so that you felt like you lived in that village and knew everyone. It's a puzzlement.

It's just a different narrative style, different approach to storytelling. P75 told the story via character interaction - it had longer sequences where characters talked to each other, so that information was conveyed and we got to know the personalities involved all at the same time. P15 uses a different approach that is more geared toward the aesthetic and focuses more tightly on the central character of Ross - it cuts very rapidly from one very short sequence to another, and uses a lot of silent montages, which are excellent for conveying atmosphere and mood, but take up screentime that in P75 was spent on character interaction, so that much the same information is conveyed, but without the time spent getting to know and care about the characters beyond that central core. P15 has beautiful visuals and is very atmospheric; P75 had much more vivid characters and sense of community.

 

If only we could combine the two, that would be perfect!

[stinkogingko]

I also think it matters that P75 was designed as a 16 episode series, intended to tell an entire story. P15 started out as 8 eps, presumably hoping for a renewal but with no guarantees. So they focused intensely on just what they thought the most winning and important bits, including Aidan Turner's extreme hotness.

I'm enjoying the gorgeous production values--P75 looks really shabby in comparison--but this version really lacks the depth and vitality of both the books and P75, for all that P75 tawrdied up some of the original material. I love the books and I feel this version has missed the boat on virtually all the characters, including Ross. I see Ross as a more conflicted character, with some liberal ideals but still a man of his time and class, not a romantic hero. He took a long time to appreciate Demelza's depths and later struggled to understand his children as well. But then the series is full of fascinating, deep, and precisely drawn characters. So far I think P75 comes much closer to capturing that.

[Llywela]

I also think it matters that P75 was designed as a 16 episode series, intended to tell an entire story. P15 started out as 8 eps, presumably hoping for a renewal but with no guarantees. So they focused intensely on just what they thought the most winning and important bits, including Aidan Turner's extreme hotness.

I agree, and I can see exactly why they've made the choices they've made, but it is still my biggest regret about this series, because that narrowness of focus just doesn't fit the material - and that becomes more and more evident the deeper into the series we get, as the supporting characters are carrying major plotlines, which have to be included because they impact on Ross, but because the characters involved are kept so much at arm's length those stories lose all their depth and shading, become flat as a pancake. We can't care about these characters if we don't know them. We are asked to care about what's going on because Ross does, but it isn't enough. And it disappoints me because I know that depth and nuance is there in the source material, it just hasn't translated because this version has such a different and much narrower focus.

 

The books are compulsive reading. This adaptation is beautiful to watch, but strangely hollow by comparison.

[stinkogingko]

I'm glad that they've decided to include Aunt Agatha, as she's so important down the line. My guess is they're hoping for several seasons, probably covering the first seven books. P75's second season tracked the books much more closely than did its first, so there's hope that this version may deepen as it proceeds. I do feel the casting has been off in some areas. The actress portraying Elizabeth just doesn't project the fragility and untouchability that were the prime source of the fascination she held for these men. And I'm not sure whether Francis and George are poorly cast or just not written deeply enough.

I heartily agree with the description of the books as compulsively readable!

Edited July 3, 2015 by stinkogingko

[Pyralis]

I can't believe how boring they made the "morning after" scene with Elizabeth.  It's one of the pivotal scenes in the whole saga - and it was like watching robots.  I know that it can be difficult to convey written interior monologue in a visual media, but it was like they didn't even try and these are three of the central characters.

[LittleIggy]

Too bad. Sir Hugh and his much younger step mother were comic relief: they were like the gentlefolk's version of the Paynters because both couples are coarse and rather lowbrow.....

 .

Amen to this! The P75 Sir Hugh was such a hilarious old lecher chasing Demelza. One of my fave episodes was when Demelza had to fend off Sir Hugh and Capt. MacNeil at a house party.

Judd and Prudie in P15 aren't funny at all. The old Judd was so funny although I scarcely could decipher his speech