Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Lady S.]

He must have gone through the tunnel at Castle Black then ran away.

Either that or he went the wildling way through the Gorge or on a raft in the bay, trying to avoid Castle Black altogether. I seem to recall the NW only found out from Ned what happened to Gared. On the show, Will was on foot when he was captured, I don't think we know if Gared was on foot in the book, but I'd think that if he passed through Castle Black he'd have taken a horse.

[Terra Nova]

If I remember correctly, in the books Gared remained with the two garrons and the destrier after Royce and Will went ahead to check the dead wildlings. He could have taken two of them and rode as fast as possible towards Dorne and beyond.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

@ ambi76

See, I get why they changed the Sparrow stuff from being about Marg's virginity, given that she's getting boffed by Tommen regularly. But if Cersei's plan was to still get at Margaery, the homosexual angle is just so freaking convoluted. If the plan was just to hurt Marg by punishing Loras, the plan would (sort of) make sense. But it really looked like, to me at least, that Cersei was attempting to have Marg arrested. In which case, why not just go for an adultery angle? In the show the word of a prostitute (who somehow also managed to serve as Loras' squire) trumps the word of House Tyrell's heir, so why not just have the guy accuse Marg of sleeping with him?

I must admit, I also found it strange that Cersei admitted to committing adultery against Robert in the show (isn't that treason?) given that the paternity of her children was called into question very publicly by Stannis.

I admit, I also just dislike how unambiguously evil religion is in the show. The religions are all corrupt, incompetent or downright evil, which all religions are certainly capable of being (as is any large, powerful organisation) but there is definitely more nuance to them.

[Delta1212]

Didn't she (season 5)

admit to sleeping with Lancel only after Robert was already dead?

[Terra Nova]

No, in the show

Cersei says: 'I was alone and afraid', the Sparrow retorts: 'you had a husband', Cersei counter-retorts with: 'a husband who whored every chance-' then the Sparrow only says: 'his sins do not pardon your own' and then goes on asking if there was someone else, if the children were Jaime's and then he starts talking about the upcoming trial. So yes, in the show Cersei confesses high treason and no one seems to react to that. In the books of course she goes for the safer fornication, confessing she banged Lancel as a widow, since otherwise it would mean death.

[WSmith84]

I seem to remember her

confessing to sleeping with him before Robert died, though perhaps I'm wrong. She definitely references Robert having his whores in her confession as a reason for her own 'sin' but again, I could be wrong. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't look up the scene.

[WSmith84]

Show spoiler

Thanks Terra Nova. The strange thing is, I thought that Cersei only started sleeping with Lancel in the show after Robert had died and Jaime had left. Because it would be really stupid for her to have been bedding Lancel before Jaime was gone, as that's two affairs she has to hide and if either man found out she'd be in serious trouble.

[nksarmi]

Jamie left King's Landing before Robert B. died, didn't he?  If I recall correctly, Jamie injured Ned because Caitlyn arrested Tyrion and then rode off.  I remembered wondering what the heck Robert B. was thinking that he allowed one of his "King's Guard" to injure the Head of a Noble House (even if he wasn't acting as Hand anymore) and then go riding off to go about Lannister business.  That doesn't seem very in keeping with "protecting the crown."

 

I think it was at least heavily implied the Cersei seduced Lancel into poisoning the wine that killed Robert B, but that could have easily begun once Jamie was gone and Ned was hobbling about King's Landing NOT getting his daughter's to safety (I love Ned, but damn it, he was a fool).

[Avaleigh]

I always thought Lancel was 'rewarded' for his loyalty after Robert was killed. Now I'm not sure. 

[Terra Nova]

It was shown that way in Season 1, in fact. It was shown on screen for the first and only time in 1x10. Either they retconned the affair, or had Cersei lie to the Sparrow. Which makes no sense since she's actually making her position far worse ^^'

Edited January 31, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

There wouldnt be a lot of time for a Cersei-Lancel thing while Bob was alive and Jaime was gone. Jaime fled after injuring Ned, and Robert and Lancel left on the fateful hunt when Ned woke up. So there's only a brief window where Cersei could have seduced him.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I read Barristan and Victarion's chapters.  

 

Both took kind of a long time to get to the point of their chapters.  The Brave Beasts think that Hizdahr attempted to have Daenerys poisoned -- Belwas is seemingly dying from the poisoning -- and I actually ended up uncertain as to who actually did try to poison Danaerys.  I enjoyed getting a little bit of a glimpse into Barristan's thought process, but I did appreciate that he hesitated to just fully buy Hizdahr's guilt without an opportunity to question the confectioner for himself.  

 

It just seems sort of unlikely that they'd still kill the confectioners daughter -- thereby making it a given that he'd talk -- so something felt off there.  

 

Volantis sending ships to conquer what remains of Mereen was a fairly alarming detail and I take it Danaerys, the Teflon-coated-Targaryen just proved again that Fire Cannot Harm a Dragon and all that, what with her hair having been afire.  

 

Not a lot of forward motion there but season five

since the show killed Selmy Barristan off, I kept waiting for him to die and am wondering if that's still in the offing, or what.

 

I ended up wondering if this Brave Beast in the Cat's Mask (the Shavepate?) was actually setting Barristan up to die but couldn't think why he'd want to.  

 

Victarion's chapter.  Oh blech and spit.  The Ironborn.  Okay, so the doom of Valyria sounded like a Tsunami in that one.  All the talk about pink palaces and Valyria being under the see -- as well as some mention of Motley -- made me wonder anew where the hell Patchface really is babbling about when he repeated talks about under the sea, etc.  

 

Uh...jebus, poor Kerwin.  Raped and murdered.  I hope he really was poisoning Victarion because it couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.  Although, I personally wouldn't trust that poor slave Euron gave Victarion either whose tongue he cut out.  Man, the Ironborn are difficult to take.  

 

Moqorro popping back up actually surprised me because he seems like Melisandre on Steroids.  In terms of Victarion being all "So what, I'll kill her husband...." ....eh, hard to care, you know?  Chances seem good that even if Hizdahr was not plotting against Danaerys he's still evil and up to no good, but I confess I don't really understand Victarion's point in this story or Moqorro's for that matter either.  

[Haleth]

When it comes to Victarion, I was rooting for the monkeys.

[Alayne Stone]

When it comes to Victarion, I'm mostly just rooting for his ships.

 

Were you surprised when you realized there was a Barristan POV?

[WindyNights]

I think the ironborn but really Euron's plot line is going to be a huge plot line going forward to the point where he's going to be the closest thing to a Dark Lord type that we'll have.

Former Protege of Bloodraven, a greenseer, allied with Pyat Pree and his warlocks, also takes Shade of the Evening which gives him new powers, a dragon horn, King of the ironborn, wants to conquer Westeros, take a dragon and marry Daenerys, his freaking banner is basically the eye of Sauron, manipulative,intelligent, sadistic etc.

Hell Euron even sounds like Sauron.

Also if Daenerys and Euron ever have kids, their children's sigils would be Cthulhu.

[Avaleigh]

Okay, so I read Barristan and Victarion's chapters.  

 

Both took kind of a long time to get to the point of their chapters.  The Brave Beasts think that Hizdahr attempted to have Daenerys poisoned -- Belwas is seemingly dying from the poisoning -- and I actually ended up uncertain as to who actually did try to poison Danaerys.  I enjoyed getting a little bit of a glimpse into Barristan's thought process, but I did appreciate that he hesitated to just fully buy Hizdahr's guilt without an opportunity to question the confectioner for himself.  

 

It just seems sort of unlikely that they'd still kill the confectioners daughter -- thereby making it a given that he'd talk -- so something felt off there.  

 

Volantis sending ships to conquer what remains of Mereen was a fairly alarming detail and I take it Danaerys, the Teflon-coated-Targaryen just proved again that Fire Cannot Harm a Dragon and all that, what with her hair having been afire.  

 

Not a lot of forward motion there but season five

since the show killed Selmy Barristan off, I kept waiting for him to die and am wondering if that's still in the offing, or what.

 

I ended up wondering if this Brave Beast in the Cat's Mask (the Shavepate?) was actually setting Barristan up to die but couldn't think why he'd want to.  

 

Victarion's chapter.  Oh blech and spit.  The Ironborn.  Okay, so the doom of Valyria sounded like a Tsunami in that one.  All the talk about pink palaces and Valyria being under the see -- as well as some mention of Motley -- made me wonder anew where the hell Patchface really is babbling about when he repeated talks about under the sea, etc.  

 

Uh...jebus, poor Kerwin.  Raped and murdered.  I hope he really was poisoning Victarion because it couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.  Although, I personally wouldn't trust that poor slave Euron gave Victarion either whose tongue he cut out.  Man, the Ironborn are difficult to take.  

 

Moqorro popping back up actually surprised me because he seems like Melisandre on Steroids.  In terms of Victarion being all "So what, I'll kill her husband...." ....eh, hard to care, you know?  Chances seem good that even if Hizdahr was not plotting against Danaerys he's still evil and up to no good, but I confess I don't really understand Victarion's point in this story or Moqorro's for that matter either.

I'm 100% convinced that Patchface is talking about Valyria every time he sings his under the sea song. Under the Sea = Valyria and you fill in the blanks from there. Someone over at Reddit, I think, did a really good breakdown of the meaning of the Under the Sea song. In the breakdown you can see that the song references the Doom of Valyria in addition to referencing small connections like with House Celtigar.

[WindyNights]

@Avaleigh I haven't seen that theory. But maaaaybe

It is always summer under the sea. The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know. I know…

Although this seems like a reference to the Purple Wedding. Sansa wore a gown of silver and poisonous amethysts in her hair. Nennymoans are also purple.

Edited February 1, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Were you surprised when you realized there was a Barristan POV?[/quote[

 

Actually I got that it would be Barristan from the title of the title of the chapter.  There just aren't that many options for Queensguard :-)  

[Delta1212]

@Avaleigh I haven't seen that theory. But maaaaybe

Although this seems like a reference to the Purple Wedding. Sansa wore a gown of silver and poisonous amethysts in her hair. Nennymoans are also purple.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of theories about what "under the sea" means, but none of them have been completely consistent across all of his little rhymes.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I've heard a lot of theories about what "under the sea" means, but none of them have been completely consistent across all of his little rhymes.

What parts aren't consistent with the Valyria theory? Curious since this is one of three theories I feel certain about apart from RLJ and AJT where I immediately felt like it makes complete sense especially in terms of where the story is headed.

[Delta1212]

What parts aren't consistent with the Valyria theory? Curious since this is one of three theories I feel certain about apart from RLJ and AJT where I immediately felt like it makes complete sense especially in terms of where the story is headed.

Well, the one in the post I just quoted for one.

[Avaleigh]

Well, the one in the post I just quoted for one.

The one about the silver and amethysts? I feel like those colors are so associated with the Valyrians.

[stillshimpy]

Whatever Patchface is, or isn't, that is one of the questions I hope the books actually answer rather than leaving it open for speculation after the conclusion of the series.  There are plenty of things I'm fine with guessing at perpetually in many fandoms, but Patchface is one I'd like an actual answer on simply because a) clearly there is something incredibly strange going on with that character b) I'd like to find out the purpose of it all because he's far, far too creepy for anyone to actually allow around their child -- even if they were almost completely disinterested in that child c) reanimated dead things are such a theme in this story and it would seem that Patchface is the most overtly "Yes, he was dead and then he wasn't" because even the characters around him know that he was seemingly-dead-until-oh-miracles!alive d) the inclusion of Val referring to Shireen as "that dead girl" gave me the creeps...but it also made me hope that maybe -- and I know this is a tremendous long shot because it's not like nice things ever happen in this story -- he's actually there to help Shireen in some way. 

 

Shireen's character in the books is fairly close to her character on the series and one nice thing about Martin is that usually when he writes an unfairly afflicted child there's some narrative purpose for that child.  So far in the books, poor Shireen has just existed to have everyone else note how unattractive she is and that's a strange reason to create any character.  "Oh, there you are.  Still permanently scarred and ugly, I see, carry on!"  just doesn't actually do anything in the story.   Giving her a super creepy sidekick  has also been -- thus far -- fairly purposeless and it's difficult to believe it's just to add some spooky and unsettling atmosphere because oddly enough, it's sort of subtle....because hardly anyone reacts to him with what would seem the appropriate level of "Ew!! What the fuck?  Why are you letting that eerie thing hang around your daughter?"  

 

It's like she has her very own weird Igor or something and essentially no one ever stops to think about him as anything other than Shireen's odd Fool instead of wondering "What the hell?  Have you considered getting her a Shetland Pony instead?  Or barring that -- because one thing is clear, y'all can't be trusted with any kind of animals on any level -- a doll or a nice Septa or companion of some sort?!?" 

 

ETA:  Oh and  were you asking if I was surprised that Barristan got a POV chapter?  I might have been had it come earlier in the book, but Dance has had a lot of "Oh...okay, so Melisandre gets a POV? Oh...okay....look, Quentyn gets a POV...and so does Griff/Connington...and Asha and..."  

by the time Barristan's POV cropped up it was just sort of a theme in the book that a bunch of characters were seemingly being given POV chapters.  

Melisandre was the one that really caught me off guard and startled me but, and this is true even in the TV series, I was just never all that interested in Barristan Selmy.  Sure, he's a badass and all that, but I'm on record all over the place as saying that I really think vows of celibacy are extremely unhealthy things and I'm always leery of them in books....and then in real life too.  I just think they're actively bad for people as a ritualized thing....which is not the same thing as saying I think celibacy is creepy....have at (or don't)...but some kind of ceremonial "I cut myself off from this, a completely natural urge, in the name of ______" is not something I tend to trust.  

Edited February 1, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Alayne Stone]

Yeah it was definitely more of a "were you surprised he's a POV" than "were you surprised it was him from the title" :)

 

It makes sense given we need a POV in Meereen now that Dany is MIA. I didn't fully come around to appreciating him as a character until we got to get inside his head though.

 

Also, is there a compilation of the "under the sea" bit of Patchface's prophesy being Valyria? I haven't heard that one before. Patchface is one of those characters I actually have no strong grasp on whatsoever. I'm right there with everyone about something being very, very weird about him but that's about it.

[Brn2bwild]

ETA:  Oh and  were you asking if I was surprised that Barristan got a POV chapter?  I might have been had it come earlier in the book, but Dance has had a lot of "Oh...okay, so Melisandre gets a POV? Oh...okay....look, Quentyn gets a POV...and so does Griff/Connington...and Asha and..."  

by the time Barristan's POV cropped up it was just sort of a theme in the book that a bunch of characters were seemingly being given POV chapters.  

 

Makes me think of Oprah.  "And YOU get a POV!  And YOU get a POV!  Everyone gets a POV!"

[WindyNights]

Luckily GRRM's gone on record saying that we won't be getting any new PoVS and that TWOW has only around 13.

[Terra Nova]

Lol, Hizdahr is hopelessly fallen on Shimpy's bad side after learning of his turkeys-based meals! Shimpy is praying for him to be revealed as the Harpy :P

 

 

I didn't fully come around to appreciating him as a character until we got to get inside his head though.

 

For me it's been the opposite way, once I got in his head all I could think was 'a great knight, maybe, but a very small man for sure'. Like, he's not a bad person at all, but in my very personal (and truly irrational, since I realize I react more strongly than I should... he's just an old man, in the end ^^') opinion he's quite a let down: this is a  knight who served crazypants half his life, who didn't say a thing when Ned argued against killing Dany or when Cersei ripped the King's will, a guy who would have served Joffrey without batting an eyelid and only got full 'you're not a worthy King' after he got fired. And after that he was planning to serve effing Viserys, ffs! His biggest complain in life then is to not have served truly worthy rulers... eh, cry me a river Barry.

 

And then he doesn't have qualms when he has to throw people under the bus to save his hide: 'yeah, Viserys was cray-cray, everyone could tell that since he was a child (which is false, btw)... yeah, Robert was unworthy and an Usurper (but I took his pardon in a split second, lololol!). But now I finally found thee, oh Daenerys, so that I can clean my honor and die happy! Here, let me NOT tell you the truth about your father!'

 

One of my favorite daydreams was to have Dany turn out raving mad and Barry forced to kill her to save Westeros from a nuclear holocaust (so he would have stopped preaching against his fellow Kingslayer Jaime). (it's almost as ironic as having Dany, full convinced she's impervious to fire, getting roasted by a dragon)

... I'm a very bad person ^^'

 

 

ETA: Re: Patchface: at the Citadel only two of his 'prophecies' are quoted, the one for the Red Wedding and the one regarding the 'shadows'; I haven't found a complete analysis of his ramblings, but they're quoted on his A Wiki of Ice and Fire's page; one is quite remarkable:

 

 

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs

 

He says this at Castle Black upon his arrival, and the first half seems to me FreyPies! Though I have no idea what to make with the crabs...

Edited February 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

For what it's worth Terra Nova, I never got the Barry love either. His only claims to fame are sneaking (sorry, boldly sneaking) into a tourney when he was ten years old and later killing a severely mentally and physically disabled Blackfyre contender. The rest is very "meh" to "wut?" indeed.

His tragic love for Ashara Dayne doesn't help either. And after all you've mentioned not beating Rhaegar in a tourney is his biggest regret in life? Okay.

 

Renly: More like Barristan the Old, am I right? *trollolol* (still really wanted him in his Rainbow Guard for prestige reasons)

 

Well, Barry shot back and called Renly a prancing jackanapes at one point.

 

They were both totally right.

Edited February 1, 2016 by ambi76

[mrspidey]

 Chances seem good that even if Hizdahr was not plotting against Danaerys he's still evil and up to no good, but I confess I don't really understand Victarion's point in this story or Moqorro's for that matter either.  

In terms of storytelling structure, most think Victarion's main purpose is to ultimately provide Dany with a fleet that she can use to invade Westeros. Whether that will happen with him alive or dead is anyones guess. I'm going with dead. 

The show strengthened that argument when they made it a point to have Daario mention that he secured 93 ships in the port of Meereen after the city had been conquered. 

Remember, Victarion doesn't seem to exist in the show's verse (thank god), so Dany has to get her fleet some other way. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by mrspidey

[Terra Nova]

@ambi76:

 

not for Shimpy

the Ashara Dayne and the tourney thing comes next chapter ;)

 

Yeah, I think Barry embodies what 'chivalry' is in Westeros these days: a gallant but ultimately empty façade which allows people to stand idly while others commit crimes in front of them (if not even being active part in said crimes) and being considered a paragon of virtue (let's be clear, I think the same of the rest of Aerys' Kingsguard, from Whent 'let me help you steal the girl' to Dayne 'I may or may not have conspired with the Prince to depose the King'. I only save poor Prince Martell who had to stay for his niece's safety).

And it irks me to see such lack of self-doubt in an old man, while young bratty Jaime already realized that letting the king rape his wife maybe is not OK. He never seems to realize how conflictual his vows are. He's not a bad person and not a stupid one - that's Victarion 'my cut is not healing! It must be poisoned! Hurr durr!' -, that's why I expected more of him.

 

The other problem is the angle he frames the kings he served: they were bad, a point we can agree to some extent (Robert was ineffectual on his own, but his Council was more than able to manage the realm), but Barry is unsatisfied with them because he thinks they somewhat besmirched his curriculum. That a bad king's fault lies in how it reflects poorly on him and on his honor. He has doubts about Duskendale, I give him credit for that, but he never takes a step further. Not for Shimpy

that thing about not defeating Rhaegar is also problematic, since Barry fails to realize that the true problem of the Rebellion is that the King was an effing lunatic, not his inadequate jousting skills (it's incredibly self-centered, now that I think about it)

 

In the end Barry is a tool: a sharp, skilled sword, but don't ask him to gauge moral dilemmas or to have a more insightful take on what true chivalry is. In these aspects he's incredibly coward, despite all his boldness in battle.

 

ETA: show!Barristan showed more guts when he told Daenerys straight to her face:

"Your Grace, I served in his Kingsguard. I was at his side from the first. Your enemies did not lie. [...] When the people rose in revolt against him, your father set their towns and castles aflame. He murdered sons in front of their fathers. He burned men alive with wildfire and laughed as they screamed. And his efforts to stamp out dissent led to a rebellion that killed every Targaryen, except two. [...] No, your Grace (you're not like your father). Thank the Gods. But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time, it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end."

 

 

ETA2: I posted this several pages ago under spoiler, but now it's safe: The Adventures of the Iron Victory! Starring Victarion 'dumb as a stump' Greyjoy:

 

http://lady-voldything.deviantart.com/art/Adventures-on-the-Iron-Victory-361160408

Edited February 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

The only person in Stannis's retinue who speaks against Patchface is Mel -- if you're creeping out the Red Priestess, something is seriously wrong.  Even Maester Cressen doesn't think anything of him, other than basically pitying him.  Hmm, some sort of magic at work, charming the Dragonstone crew, that only Mel can see through?  Maybe.

 

I confess I don't really understand Victarion's point in this story or Moqorro's for that matter either.

 

Vic provides the fleet, Moqorro provides Dany with information, specifically that she has the support of the followers of the Red God.

 

Back when Tyrion and Jorah were in Volantis, that lady at the docks (I forget her name) indicated that some of the Volantine slaves see Dany as a liberator.  Tyrion also noticed that most of the people at the Red Temple were slaves.  The Volantine fleet that's behind Victarion is carrying a slave army, with probably a large fraction of them being R'hlor worshippers -- I wonder if one of the twists will be that they will turn on their masters once they reach her.

[WSmith84]

@ Terra Nova

 

You know, it's funny, I basically agree with everything (more or less) that you said about Barry, and yet his chapters were the best part of the Meereen plot for me and I loved being inside his head. I'm not sure if shimpy read this part yet

I also get a good chuckle out of his 'fire vs mud' speech. I mean, I think Daario is the personification of an unpleasant STD, but the idea that fire never did anyone any good makes me roll my eyes a bit. Since Maester Aemon said something similar, maybe George really is trying to tell us that fire is destructive, but still. Maybe Dany should have just married Daario and Quentyn both, then changed her words to 'Fire and Mud.'

[Alayne Stone]

He does try to tell Daenerys about her mad father though, she just wasn't ready to hear it and the two were interrupted in the moment it seemed like she would be ready to hear at least some of it.

 

It's really hard for me to defend him when Shimpy has only read one of his POV chapters. I thoroughly enjoyed his insight into the whole fire vs. mud and how young girls will choose fire every time, which, yes, is the kind of insight only an older man would have. I'm sure there was a bit of that fire vs. mud when it came to Ashara, him and Brandon (and maybe Ned). It was just nice to learn that this man who seemed relatively one dimensional up to this point actually did have a crush even when he was in the white cloak. And I'm sorry, but I can certainly appreciate the fact that he held the white cloak in such high esteem and has been disappointed that his whole life has been pretty much wasted on insane tyrants and inept drunkards. But really, the best part is seeing a man who is pretty straight forward with a code and absolutely no experience politicking trying to maneuver in Meereen. It was nice to finally get another perspective on that side of the world. I don't count Quentyn because he's still pretty much an outsider and has little insight to the political upheavel Dany has been dealing with.

 

Terra Nova:

I don't think it's fair to hold what Aerys did to Rhaella against Barriston? We've only had two POV chapters from Barriston and it is not like we learned of Jaime's feelings towards that matter right away. I highly doubt Barriston would have been okay with it either. We simply haven't heard anything on the matter from him. Not yet, anyway. And I do think he is being forced to engage in moral dilemas now where Meereen is concerned. It's uncomfortable for him. He's been a "yes" man his whole life, but he's trying ... as awkward and uncomfortable as it is for him.

 

I can't get over the idea of the "under the sea" that Patchface sings about possibly being Valyria now that it's been brought up. Makes me think the drowned men of the Iron Born might have more in common with the dragon lords of old than we know if that's the case. I wonder if this has ever been discussed on the Heresy threads at Westeros.org ...

 

Oh and yeah, the moment Daario chimed in with his 93 ships (I'll admit I actually got a good little chuckle out of the line "I heard you liked boats" because of the meme), I knew Victarion was pretty much cut.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Terra Nova]

Oh, but I like Barristan's chapter and I like him as a character... just like I find Tyrion a compelling character, but a person I want to have nothing to do with ^^ 

I don't like how Barristan tiptoes around everything he says about the Targs: Aerys... may have... taken.... some... erm, liberties with Joanna... gone a little bit too far... and Rhaegar, he was... fond... of Elia... but she wasn't anything special! Nice, but... yeah...

Jeez, just say it you mighty warrior! "Aerys groped Joanna and proclaimed he could have bedded her if he wanted, and Rhaegar didn't love his wife and ran away with someone of his liking" - something Dany already knows, since she dreams of Daario taking her away at swordpoint like Rhaegar did with his beloved Northern girl (and Dany's views on violence and sex are frankly a tad puzzling to me) -. 

 

And I like how with another POV the Shavepate suddenly becomes much more opaque and menacing: Dany took him for granted, a cruel straightforward and grumpy counselor, but now you see him as the secret master of the pyramid - he comes and goes as he pleases, covered by his private militia - and I certainly like the political situation: Dany as a character may have hade her big moment in the pit (not for Shimpy)

next chapter is just as important and awesome

, but the big show for Meereen has just started now with the power vacuum.

 

@WSmith84 (not for Shimpy)

yep, Fire and Mud is next chapter, and of course Barry is a little butt-hurt because he thinks of flashy Brandon and his young unimpressive self. Surely I consider the dragons as a destructive force, though they may prove to be a necessary evil against the Others - though I always have in the back of my mind that Martin originally intended to have no living dragon in his books -.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

Vic is there to give Daenerys boats,(not for shimpy)

help win the battle of fire, steal a dragon for Euron

, bring Moquorro to Daenerys to probably convert her and there is some foreshadowing that Vic/ Euron will succeed and get hitched to Daenerys.

Edited February 1, 2016 by WindyNights

[WSmith84]

Yeah, I agree Terra Nova. Barry's reluctance to just say what a PoS Aerys was is frustrating as hell. I find his hero worship of Rhaegar a bit nauseating as well, because what we know of him doesn't paint a fantastic picture (in my own view at least). His position that Rhaegar would have been a better King than Jaehaerys, Aerys and Robert annoys me as well. Firstly, Aerys and Robert were both such poor Kings that it's barely an accomplishment. Secondly, Jaehaerys had a good reign; he won the War of the Ninepenny Kings and ended the Blackyre male line, and placated many of the Lords unhappy with his father's reign. What was so special about Rhaegar?

[WindyNights]

I just wanna say that everyone thinks Rhaegar would've made a great king. It's hardly a position unique to Barristan.

Rhaegar was intelligent, a good warrior, well-educated, had a commanding voice according to Jaime and handsome but there's also a lot of nostalgia attached to him as to what could've been.

But Rhaegar had it in him to be the second coming of Baelor Breakspear from what we know.

[Delta1212]

Really popular, charismatic Targaryen prince who was cut down in his prime by a relative that went on to sit the Iron Throne himself with ultimately unfortunate consequences for the realm?

Sounds like he already was Baelor Breakspear, basically.

[WSmith84]

But the political things Rhaegar did do don't exactly fill me with confidence in his ruling abilities. His crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal offended the Baratheons, Martells and Starks, and his disappearing with Lyanna (granted, we don't have the full story there yet), well, it doesn't look good (and it will take some really good reasons as to why it was not a bad idea to convince me). His only military effort ended in a resounding defeat (all his primary commanders were dead or captured, and he himself was slain) and he failed to acknowledge just how batshit insane Aerys was until it was far too late. It's not a great CV, is all I'm saying. Now, he certainly could have been a better King than Robert or Aerys, but I don't see what made him oh so special.

[Terra Nova]

Rhaegar is such a cypher that I don't know what to think of him as a King; because for each one of his pros I can write an equally convincing con: he's a guy obsessed with prophecies to the point of neglecting the realm, an angsty youth who got no interest in ruling, a possible traitor to his own family when it became convenient to depose his father, a guy who shamed and abandoned his wife to have his way with the daughter of a Lord Paramount and gave no thought about his two children left in the cares of his crazy father. 

Someone so sure about his predestination he rode to the Trident dead sure he would have come back and set everything alright. His first battle in a real war turned to be his last one. 

He embodies what a King should look like, but even Daemon the Pretender looked the part, while Gormon Peake moved the strings of such a gallant fool. Daeron the Good on the other hand was despised because he got a round belly and surrounded himself with singers, maesters, and *gasp* women. 

 

ETA: we just don't know much about him. Almost nothing, actually. We see others remember him, and the hopes he would have been a better king, but that's not much. Even Aerys in his youth was amiable and loved; and surely didn't act like the crazypant he ended up being.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[SeanC]

a possible traitor to his own family when it became convenient to depose his father

I wouldn't say "convenient", I'd say "necessary".  His flaw was, if anything, that he was too slow to act on that.

[WSmith84]

Daeron the Good on the other hand was despised because he got a round belly and surrounded himself with singers, maesters, and *gasp* women. 

 

And Dornish, Terra. Don't forget the Dornish.

[WindyNights]

Rhaegar is such a cypher that I don't know what to think of him as a King; because for each one of his pros I can write an equally convincing con: he's a guy obsessed with prophecies to the point of neglecting the realm, an angsty youth who got no interest in ruling, a possible traitor to his own family when it became convenient to depose his father, a guy who shamed and abandoned his wife to have his way with the daughter of a Lord Paramount and gave no thought about his two children left in the cares of his crazy father.

Someone so sure about his predestination he rode to the Trident dead sure he would have come back and set everything alright. His first battle in a real war turned to be his last one.

He embodies what a King should look like, but even Daemon the Pretender looked the part, while Gormon Peake moved the strings of such a gallant fool. Daeron the Good on the other hand was despised because he got a round belly and surrounded himself with singers, maesters, and *gasp* women.

ETA: we just don't know much about him. Almost nothing, actually. We see others remember him, and the hopes he would have been a better king, but that's not much. Even Aerys in his youth was amiable and loved; and surely didn't act like the crazypant he ended up being.

He actually left Elia and his kids on DS. Aerys moved them to KL.

Trying to depose Aerys is now a con?

And there's nothing that says he has no interest in ruling.

Although I just realized that Jon has been getting more and more into prophecy due to Mel's influence. Like father, like son?

But the political things Rhaegar did do don't exactly fill me with confidence in his ruling abilities. His crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal offended the Baratheons, Martells and Starks, and his disappearing with Lyanna (granted, we don't have the full story there yet), well, it doesn't look good (and it will take some really good reasons as to why it was not a bad idea to convince me). His only military effort ended in a resounding defeat (all his primary commanders were dead or captured, and he himself was slain) and he failed to acknowledge just how batshit insane Aerys was until it was far too late. It's not a great CV, is all I'm saying. Now, he certainly could have been a better King than Robert or Aerys, but I don't see what made him oh so special.

If Jon is AA, Rhaegar saved the world.

[WSmith84]

He actually left Elia and his kids on DS. Aerys moved them to KL.

He did leave them in King's Landing after he returned and was heading to the Trident. My first move would be to move them to Dragonstone or Dorne, because daddy turned out to be a psycho who couldn't be trusted to care for a puppy, let alone someone's wife and children (TWOIAF spoiler)

that he had previously displayed a dislike for.

If Jon is AA, Rhaegar saved the world.

Sure, but how much credit he deserves depends on a few factors. One of which would be 'does AA have to be born of Lyanna Stark?' 'Was creating AA even his intention when he banged Lyanna Stark?' 'Was there no possible to alternative to disappearing with Lyanna in order to create AA?' Etc. etc.

Edited February 1, 2016 by WSmith84

[Terra Nova]

@Sean C:

right, I could have probably had a better wording for that, but I'll leave it like that. I meant that he didn't acted upon it as soon or as forcefully as he could have.

 

@WSmith:

actually reading AWoIaF one could argue that

the grudge for the increased influence of Dornish at court had some basis; that someone surrounded by perceived 'weaklings' is in turn weak and un-manly is still absolutely laughable

 

@WindyNights:

Deposing Aerys is only reasonable to me, but we are still talking about a prince who's overthrowing his father. It's justified (in this case), but it's still treasonous. I'm arguing that he's not doing it for the good of the realm, since he could have done it years in advance, but only at a certain moment, probably because of his beliefs regarding the prophecy.

Rhaegar may turn out to save the world, IF Jon is AA. And even if that's the case, it's still at least morally troubling to plunge the realm into war because some dusty scroll says that a savior - whom you assume to be yourself, and then your son (the wrong one) - will come to the rescue. Are we truly supposed as readers to conclude that prophecies are to be believed blindly? Martin stated twice that prophecies are like a mule/whore: they kick you/bite your penis off when you don't expect it. Cersei is the walking cautionary tale against them. Even in the best case scenario we have a Rhaegar who decided to risk everything for an uncertain outcome. This is not greatness to me, it's recklessness.

Besides, what about the theory of Bran time-traveling? I would say he's the one who saved the world, if it turns out to be true. 

 

The theory (while it doesn't contain spoilers, I would advice Shimpy not to read itbefore the end of Dance):

Bloodraven said that despite his efforts, none ever heard him in the trees. We saw instead Theon at first hearing the leaves murmuring, then an angry voice calling his name - Bran seeing him for the first time -, and later again with a softer tone, together with Bran's face in the trunk with the sad, knowing eyes - Bran who's now forgiving or at least understanding Theon -. Theon is saved by this, because the Gods knew him and knew his true name *sniffles*. This means that history has been changed by Bran. Now back to ACoK: Jon dreams of Bran in a tree (while for the rest of the book Bran has been equated to the winged wolf, and the tree symbol appears only from Dance onwards) who tells him not to fear darkness, that it protects you and then proceeds to touch his forehead, awakening his skinchanging abilities. While the darkness and the smell of death are interpreted by the reader the first time as Bran hiding in the crypts among the dead, he himself being thought dead, what if actually this is Bran from the future, his powers in full display, the darkness being under the weirwood grove and the smell of death the bones of greenseers in the caves? In this case Bran has pinpointed the reason why the war for the Dawn is lost in a first timeline - Jon dies at Castle Black, thanks for all the fish Rhaegar - and is now correcting it by giving Jon the means to keep living in Ghost until his resurrection. We are then already in an alternate timeline, where Jon's death won't happen or won't be permanent.

 

ETA: I don't consider Rhaegar the n-th cray cray Targ rapist, to be clear, but he's far from being a hero in my opinion. He's another Targ obsessed with prophecies and chosen ones... only that probably this time the Targ got it right, finally! Even a broken clock displays the right time twice a day.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Maximum Taco]

 

ETA: Re: Patchface: at the Citadel only two of his 'prophecies' are quoted, the one for the Red Wedding and the one regarding the 'shadows'; I haven't found a complete analysis of his ramblings, but they're quoted on his A Wiki of Ice and Fire's page; one is quite remarkable:

 

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs

 

 

He says this at Castle Black upon his arrival, and the first half seems to me FreyPies! Though I have no idea what to make with the crabs...

 

I think this more refers to Davos as the starfish. 

 

When Davos is left on Sweetsister he is brought before Lord Godric Borrell whose sigil is the white spider crab, Lord Borell allows him to continue to White Harbor to see Lord Manderly, the merman.

 

No idea why Davos is referred to as a starfish, maybe something to do with his missing fingers?

Edited February 1, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[WindyNights]

He actually left Elia and his kids on DS. Aerys moved them to KL.

He did leave them in King's Landing after he returned and was heading to the Trident. My first move would be to move them to Dragonstone or Dorne, because daddy turned out to be a psycho who couldn't be trusted to care for a puppy, let alone someone's wife and children (TWOIAF spoiler)

that he had previously displayed a dislike for.

If Jon is AA, Rhaegar saved the world.

Sure, but how much credit he deserves depends on a few factors. One of which would be 'does AA have to be born of Lyanna Stark?' 'Was creating AA even his intention when he banged Lyanna Stark?' 'Was there no possible to alternative to disappearing with Lyanna in order to create AA?' Etc. etc.

I don't have my book on me but (TWOIAF)

I believe TWOIAF says that Rhaegar left Elia and his kids on DS and Aerys moved them to KL because he was afraid that Lewyn Martell betrayed Rhaegar.

And it seems that AA had to be born of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar. And at the very least, Rhaegar believed he needed to create the three heads of the dragons. He knew about TPTWP prophecy but nothing is said on what he knew of AA although I believe AA and TPTWP are the same person.

And yeah, it was completely Rhaegar's intention to use Lyanna to make the third head. His first two kids were named after Rhaenys and Aegon. He likely expected a third child to be a daughter that he'd name Visenya. But Elia couldn't have anymore children according to the maesters so he had to find someone else which is when he stumbled on Lyanna.

So my reading of Rhaegar is that he manipulated a 15 year old girl into falling in love with him because he saw something in her that he felt necessary for the third head. I'm sure we'll discover later on why Rhaegar felt it had to be her though. I really don't buy that Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna at first.

I mean Rhaegar is still a dick no matter how you slice it.

[WindyNights]

Deposing Aerys is only reasonable to me, but we are still talking about a prince who's overthrowing his father. It's justified (in this case), but it's still treasonous. I'm arguing that he's not doing it for the good of the realm, since he could have done it years in advance, but only at a certain moment, probably because of his beliefs regarding the prophecy.

Rhaegar may turn out to save the world, IF Jon is AA. And even if that's the case, it's still at least morally troubling to plunge the realm into war because some dusty scroll says that a savior - whom you assume to be yourself, and then your son (the wrong one) - will come to the rescue. Are we truly supposed as readers to conclude that prophecies are to be believed blindly? Martin stated twice that prophecies are like a mule/whore: they kick you/bite your penis off when you don't expect it. Cersei is the walking cautionary tale against them. Even in the best case scenario we have a Rhaegar who decided to risk everything for an uncertain outcome. This is not greatness to me, it's recklessness.

Besides, what about the theory of Bran time-traveling? I would say he's the one who saved the world, if it turns out to be

He does try to do it in advance at the tourney of Harrenhal but Varys and Aerys pre-empt him.

I don't think I was ever saying we should believe in prophecies blindly. I'm just saying that Rhaegar ended up saving the world because of all the things he did.

@Terra Very unlikely.

It seems it'll be a red priest/LS that'll revive him and greenseer magic has shown no ability to resurrect people.

Edited February 1, 2016 by WindyNights

[WSmith84]

@ Windy Nights

 

TWOIAF

It says that Aerys forced them to remain in KL whilst Viserys and Rhaella fled to DS. And that Aerys 'reminded' the Martells that he held Elia and the kids, so that they would send military support. So yeah, they were almost definitely there when Rhaegar returned to KL.

[Terra Nova]

@Windy:

 

I'm not arguing that

greenseer magic will revive him: but that Bran in that dream awoke Jon's skinchanging abilities (I think this is a clear given) and that those will make him live in Ghost until he's revived by whoever comes by. This way he won't come back as a deranged Lord Stoneheart or some slobbering thrall in a voodoo fashion. He will be Jon again, whole and sound of body and mind. Maybe a tad pissed, but that's understandable