Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

I love the Winterfell storyline too.  It's so claustrophobic with everyone hunkered down in the blizzard, dead Freys popping up randomly to ramp up the feelings of paranoia and terror.  I expect to see Jack Nickolson peek through the door at any time with a "Heeeeere's Stannis!"

 

It really bugs me on the show that there is so little snow.  They should be trudging through waist deep drifts by now.  If winter is coming it must be taking the scenic route just like Dany is.

[mac123x]

I hadn't heard the Theon Durden theory before.  If the hooded man Theon encountered is supposed to be himself, I assume that it wasn't actually a time-traveling apparition or anything, but was just all in his head.  Psychological rather than mystical, if that makes any sense.

 

I really did have to fight down the urge to just go find the next Winterfell chapter, particularly when I scrolled to the next chapter and ...oh goody, Tyrion.

 

Hee, that was my immediate thought too.  "wow, that was really good, things are getting interesting!  I can't wait to read...[record scratch]... oh, another Tyrion chapter".  Book 5 spoiler: 

One of the worst wheel-spinning chapters yet.  I wonder when Shimpy will realize that Tyrion isn't actually going to meet Dany.

[stillshimpy]

Furthermore, Tywin does pull out the "because you're my son" card with Tyrion at the end of AGOT when he gives up Jaime for dead and has no way around it.

 

In the series when this moment played out Charles Dance seemed to invest it with something resembling human warmth and I believed it was a case of "Oh shit, he doesn't think he's getting Jaime back and he actually means this.  It has emotional validity and Tyrion recognizes this."  

 

In the book with all the other surrounding information and the emotional tenor accompanying much of the setup, it felt more like something Tywin said only to get Tyrion to do what he wanted in that moment and that it didn't really carry any "if the shit goes down, you're my heir"  weight to it.  It seemed a statement of expediency vs. something with any true import to it, if that makes sense.   It came off in the book as a more clear-cut manipulation and something said without any true inflection behind it, sort of the "have a nice day" of familial interaction. 

 

I love the Winterfell storyline too.  It's so claustrophobic with everyone hunkered down in the blizzard, dead Freys popping up randomly to ramp up the feelings of paranoia and terror.  I expect to see Jack Nickolson peek through the door at any time with a "Heeeeere's Stannis!"

 

There's something else that really added to the atmosphere and sold the entire thing on such a wonderfully creepy level:  Theon noting that Bolton seemed afraid.  That had a lot of impact for me.  Nothing says the shit is going down like Bolton having a perceivable emotion. 

 

I hadn't heard the Theon Durden theory before.  If the hooded man Theon encountered is supposed to be himself, I assume that it wasn't actually a time-traveling apparition or anything, but was just all in his head.  Psychological rather than mystical, if that makes any sense.

 

Whereas it's an interesting concept, there's just nothing hanging on that scene that would make that make sense to me.  If you encountered a vision of your former self and had an exchange with said vision, wouldn't there be more questioning or noting the differences between then and now?  Or just more self-examination in general?  

 

I don't know who the man in the snow was, but it would never have naturally occurred to me "The Former Theon has made an appearance."  

 

I did notice though that Theon did something really significant in the Hall, he told one of Mance's washerwomen not to touch him.  It was the closet thing to assertive he's been since he was knocked out at Winterfell.   The least cringing and having not being hurt as the main motivating force for thought and action.  He actually asserts something attached to his personhood, his rights as an individual.  So the moment of thinking how he would have formerly made a joke didn't actually carry a lot of weight with me, but twice asserting "Don't touch me." and adding a "don't ever touch me" to it really caught me.  

 

So I was pretty conscious of an echo of who Theon had been being present and it still wouldn't have occurred to me that the Hooded Man could be the Former Theon.  I did, of course, wonder "Who the hell is standing around freezing his bits and parts off when everyone else is yukking it up in the Hall?"  

 

The other thing I appreciated was Theon contemplating suicide and the mention that leaping off of castle walls would lead to broken bones, despite the drifts.  

 

Season five

something that drove me almost fully insane at the end of season five, Theon and Sansa leaping from the walls of Winterfell and people taking that as an escape bid, because leaping into snow is not like leaping into a giant feather bed, and even though it would greatly lessen the height of the fall, broken bones can still result on impact -- hell, people leaping off bridges into water can break bones, for goodness sake, impact is lessened but not negated . Even if they survived without a scratch they are then in the snow, in the woods, right outside the walls with no horses, no food, no supplies, no way to defend themselves.  I get that the show is almost certainly going to play it off like "And at ground level they will magically encounter Brienne, who will yield her righteous sword to great ends and they will survive!!" ....and I will scream and throw things because ....oh for fuck's sake.

Edited January 22, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

So the moment of thinking how he would have formerly made a joke didn't actually carry a lot of weight with me, but twice asserting "Don't touch me." and adding a "don't ever touch me" to it really caught me. 

 

Strangely - but maybe not so much, the text is complex enough to allow different paths to reach the same conclusion - for me it was the other way around: humor is to me something more elevated (and in some way more superfluous) than the basic instinct of avoiding pain and punishment and the urge to slink away like a whipped animal. Whereas the fear of being touched reminded me much more of some little fearful creature. So I felt more poignancy in Theon taking some time for musing about something more 'abstract' and with less immediate effect on him.

 

I think part of my reaction on my first read - it hasn't changed since - was also influenced by searching for clues about Theon's private parts or lack thereof: so him rejecting a contact tinged with sexual undertones resonated strongly with, just in the current chapter for example, him comforting himself when forced to show his hands ('it's not that bad, I'm not naked')... but as a proof that the 'other thing' Ramsay took was indeed his penis. And all Theon's cockiness with it (obviously ^^')

[dragonbone]

  The Weirwood seems to be able to inspire people to their best.  After leaving Harrenhal Jaime slept with his head on a weirwood tree stump and had these strange dreams.  Then when he awoke he went back for Brienne and decided he would try to live by his oaths.  He wasn't fixed immediately, but he was set on a course to healing.  I don't know if Bloodraven or Bran or some older greenseer spoke in Jaime's dream then, but it really marked a turning point for the character's arc.

[Avaleigh]

But with Ned and Jon, the two aspects of the story are in perfect counterpoint -- Jon may in fact have been sired by Rhaegar, but Ned raised him as his own, and thus he became Ned's son regardless of his parentage. If Aerys is Tyrion's father, the storylines don't harmonize in the same way; they step all over each other: "Tywin always acted as if Tyrion wasn't truly his son, but that doesn't change the fact that he was more of Tywin's son than anyone, except that he actually wasn't Tywin's son, which is why he acted as if he wasn't in the first place." That's not at all elegant or interesting; it just adds superfluous plot-related explanations (Tywin hates Tyrion because he suspects he's someone else's son!) for things that already have more interesting psychological explanations (Tywin hates Tyrion because it wounds his pride to imagine he was responsible for siring an embarrassing freak of a child who killed his beloved wife).

 

Which isn't to say I don't think Martin will go there. One of the reasons the last two books have left me so cold is because I see him resorting to this kind of storytelling more and more, where the story emerges from external forces -- all of the eight thousand different characters pinging against each other's plots and counter-plots like billiard balls -- instead of the largely internal pressure of their personal psychologies.

I don't think Tyrion not being Tywin's takes away the psychological factor of their relationship at all. I think it only enhances it. The idea to me is that there's this lingering doubt and that Tyrion's existence plays on all of Tywin's fears and ultimately ends up giving both characters more layers. If the doubt is there, the issue of him being 'cursed' with a dwarf son doesn't go away if Tyrion doesn't turn out to be his biologically. The gods have seen fit to insert Tyrion into Tywin's life and Tywin is forced to deal with it. Tywin says that he can't prove that Tyrion isn't his and Tyrion himself says that Tywin has never been sure. The doubt is there, it always has been, and it's been festering in Tywin's mind all this time.

 

Going with the idea that Tywin has doubts or reason to believe that Tyrion could be Aerys's kid--any time he looks at Tyrion and wants to disapprove there's a part of him that wants to take comfort in the idea that Tyrion isn't his but then all of the implications of that and everything it means are enough to get him to pretend that the opposite is true because ultimately that's what he decided would be least hurtful and embarrassing. When forced to choose, I think Tywin found it easier to deal with letting Tyrion live as opposed to confirming any rumors or acknowledging the fact that his wife was horribly dishonored in the worst possible way while under his protection. I think he'd rather pretend that it never happened. That's the 'the offer was never made' part of his personality. The part of his personality that refuses to see the incest. 

 

The theory is also consistent with a lot of what we know of the character of Aerys from earlier books. It isn't hard for me to imagine that this guy raped Joanna given the way he was with Rhaella and women in general. AWOIAF

Add in Rhaella's miscarriages and they bring to mind Tyrion only Tyrion managed to live. I'm also reminded of that one Targaryen king who fathered nothing but monstrosities. I think Aerys was hugely resentful when he saw Tywin's beautiful twins and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this ended up being another factor.  

 

There are a lot of people who believe that Tyrion is a product of Aerys and Joanna but somehow think the union was consensual and this is the only interpretation that I find impossible to believe at this point based on the core books.

 

The fact that we 'meet' the character of Joanna in AFFC in such a creepy and unsettling way makes me think that we're going to learn more about her. I think it's telling that the Joanna that Jaime sees when he has his head on the weirwood stump makes no mention of Tyrion when she's talking about Tywin's children. She only talks about Jaime and Cersei. Why? Everything about that dream seemed significant to me and I think it's one of the strongest pieces of evidence that Tyrion isn't Tywin's son. 

 

Re: Genna's line--I actually think the line becomes more powerful if it turns out that Tyrion isn't biologically his. I think Genna too is the only character who has confirmed Tywin's deep love for Joanna outside of possible thoughts from the Lannister kids. AWOIAF spoiler

before AWOIAF confirmed that Jaime and Cersei are definitely Tywin's, people who were proponents of the theory that the twins could be Aerys's pointed to Genna's line saying that Tyrion is Tywin's son, not Jaime.

When Genna says that Tyrion, not Jaime, is Tywin's son does anyone really think that Genna is saying that Jaime isn't Tywin's biologically? Of course not, she's just talking about personality. It's the personalities of Tywin, Jaime, and Tyrion that makes Genna's comment true.

 

When people say that Tyrion not being Tywin's son biologically ruins the relationship between the characters, I feel like that's essentially saying that the relationship boils down to blood as opposed to all of the complicated psychological factors. I feel like Tyrion being Tywin's biologically simplifies everything and is easily the least interesting outcome. It doesn't progress the story, it doesn't doesn't reveal anything new about either character that we don't already know, it waters down the connection that Tyrion had with Jon right off the bat season 5 spoiler (

or the relationship that he's begun with Dany on the show.

 

This isn't even getting into the sense it makes as far as the dragon having three heads. It's not three dragons but three heads on the same body. They're all connected IMHO and I think the idea that they're connected by blood makes the most sense in addition to being compelling because it explains so much. 

 

I agree with WIndyNights that the evidence has been laid out since the very first book. I don't think this is something that GRRM came up with after he'd already published material. There are clues in Tyrion's first chapter and the references to Tyrion and dragons in ADWD is extraordinary and I'm guessing there's a reason for it. These aren't simply childish dreams. ADWD spoiler because I'm unsure if this scene has happened yet although I lean towards saying it happened in one of Tyrion's early chapters

Tyrion's dream where he has two heads and is crying--I thought that was a clear nod to Tyrion being half Targaryen, half Lannister.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

[stillshimpy]

Terra Nova, the thing is, that moment doesn't play out with Theon having humor in mind.  He isn't repressing a joke, he's simply remembering that there would have been a time when he would have made one or pulled her down onto his lap and all he thinks is that those days are gone. 

 

There's no joke at hand, or at his lips, there's just a memory of a different time when he wouldn't have acted differently but acknowledging that that time was gone.  I think that's part of the reason people might reach for the concept of the Hooded Man being Theon's former self.  He has just been sort of reviewing what his former self might have done, but it's more like he's viewing home movies of a distant cousin rather than having his humor awaken.  

 

The "Don't touch me" is something actually doing in that moment, rather than thinking of the shade of his former self and what that person would have done rather than asserting "don't touch me, never touch me" in that moment.  There's no humor present.  

 

Then when he awoke he went back for Brienne and decided he would try to live by his oaths.  He wasn't fixed immediately, but he was set on a course to healing.  I don't know if Bloodraven or Bran or some older greenseer spoke in Jaime's dream then, but it really marked a turning point for the character's arc.

 

I liked how it was also implied from the earlier Bran chapters that it really was Bran reaching out to him via the Weirwood.  Just like Ned had seemingly heard something when praying in the godswood.  

Edited January 22, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Trisan]

Can I just say how glad I am you discovered the "Theon in Winterfell" of the books !!! He's so much more fascinating that the "Theon in Winterfell" from the show, although Alfie gave it all and his performance alone saves the arc !

[Haleth]

Alfie would have knocked it out of the park.

[Terra Nova]

Shimpy, 

I get your point, and I think this is a case where language limitations stunt me ^^'

Maybe I am splitting hairs, but I think I favored the 'Theon-remembers-who-he-is' instead of the 'Theon-breaks-his-mental-chains' (not that the two are totally independent from each other, and I appreciated how Theon thinks about escaping - though deeming it too dangerous - instead of how he and Ramsay belong to each other).

 

For me it all goes back to a quote in Bran V, AGoT:

 

 

[Theon] smiled a lot, as if the world were a secret joke that only he was clever enought to understand.

 

Maybe I'm overplaying how much this characterizes Theon as a person, but there is a nice progression from his first chapter when he was refusing to even think about a past before the dungeons, to him fighting to suppress the memories of 'another person' until finally he actively recognizes and accepts 'that person' to be himself, though a past and now lost version of himself. 

But as I said, I fear I can't explain myself as I would ^^'

[Delta1212]

Shimpy,

I get your point, and I think this is a case where language limitations stunt me ^^'

Maybe I am splitting hairs, but I think I favored the 'Theon-remembers-who-he-is' instead of the 'Theon-breaks-his-mental-chains' (not that the two are totally independent from each other, and I appreciated how Theon thinks about escaping - though deeming it too dangerous - instead of how he and Ramsay belong to each other).

For me it all goes back to a quote in Bran V, AGoT:

Maybe I'm overplaying how much this characterizes Theon as a person, but there is a nice progression from his first chapter when he was refusing to even think about a past before the dungeons, to him fighting to suppress the memories of 'another person' until finally he actively recognizes and accepts 'that person' to be himself, though a past and now lost version of himself.

But as I said, I fear I can't explain myself as I would ^^'

Perhaps that he'd gone from hiding from what he was to acknowledging it and mourning what was lost as a first step toward, if not getting back to the way he was, then at least moving on from the broken thing that he had become.

[stillshimpy]

I don't think it's a language barrier necessarily, Terra Nova, I'm not convinced we're talking about the same passage though, because the line I'm talking about is really straight-forward and follows the "Don't touch me, don't ever touch me" and it's this exchange: 

 

 

 

Holly the whore, he thought, but she was pretty enough.  Once might have laughed and puller into his lap, but that day was done.  

 

What line are you talking about? 

 

And by the way, I think you communicate incredibly well in English and never notice any language hiccups.  I just don't think we could possibly be talking about the same passage, because...there's no joke there. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by stillshimpy

[glowbug]

Tyrion as a secret Targaryen doesn't work for me on any level and I really hope it turns out not to be true, although the way the story is going I see it as a likely possibility. From a narrative stand point, having another secret Targaryen is just overkill. One is enough and that one is Jon. Adding (f)Aegon was a little much but if he does turn out to be fake then at least it's the mirror situation to Jon's. A boy raised as a Targaryen who turns out to be a Blackfyre (or whoever) versus the boy raised as a Stark bastard and turns out to be a Targaryen bastard (or a legitimate Targaryen as some have speculated). Tyrion being Aerys' son is just a repeat of Jon being Rhaegar's son. 

 

On a character level, I do think it cheapens the irony of Tyrion being the child most like Tywin despite the physical limitations that Tywin despises him for. Even worse, though, are the implications it would have for Tywin's character. It makes his attitude towards Tyrion understandable and somewhat justified regardless if he knew about it or not. Not that it would be right to punish Tyrion for something he had no control over, but it would be very human to do so. Only a very good person (and Tywin certainly wasn't that) could have anything but negative feelings towards a child who was the result of his wife being raped by someone else. Even if Tywin didn't know, he was only despising the person he had every right to despise but for the wrong reasons.

 

This theory doesn't work at all for me if Tywin knew because there is no way I believe that he would have kept Tyrion around had he not believed Tyrion was his son. It would be completely out of character for him to not only keep him alive, but also give him all the privileges of being a Lannister (education, money, etc.). Additionally, I can't see Tywin continuing to be Hand of the King if he knew that Aerys had raped his wife. Spoilers for AWoIaF:

I don't care if Aerys refused his resignation, there was no way he could have forced Tywin to act as Hand of the King regardless of whether he held the title. And even if Tywin was somehow forced to remain Hand in some way he didn't have to hold a tournament in honor of Viserys' birth or attempt to arrange a marriage between Cersei and Rhaegar. I don't care how politically ambitious Tywin was, if he truly loved Joanna then there is no way he would try to marry his daughter to the son of the man who raped her. His behavior makes absolutely no sense if he knew or suspected Tyrion was Aerys' son.

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by glowbug

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion as a secret Targaryen doesn't work for me on any level and I really hope it turns out not to be true, although the way the story is going I see it as a likely possibility. From a narrative stand point, having another secret Targaryen is just overkill. One is enough and that one is Jon. Adding (f)Aegon was a little much but if he does turn out to be fake then at least it's the mirror situation to Jon's. A boy raised as a Targaryen who turns out to be a Blackfyre (or whoever) versus the boy raised as a Stark bastard and turns out to be a Targaryen bastard (or a legitimate Targaryen as some have speculated). Tyrion being Aerys' son is just a repeat of Jon being Rhaegar's son. 

I see Tyrion and Jon's situations as being the ones that mirror each other. I don't see it with Aegon and Jon. If RL=J is true then Jon is (more than likely) a royal prince who has been living his life as the bastard of a lord. If AJ=T is true then Tyrion is a royal bastard who has been living his life as the legitimate son of a lord. I don't feel like Faegon's situation lines up as well. 

[WindyNights]

There's also the parallel between both Ned and Tywin raising a son of a Targaryen who are more similar to them than their own children.

Also it would mean all 3 Targaryen PoVS killed their mothers in childbirth.

@glowbug That is precisely why I think that Tywin doesn't know that Tyrion might be someone else's. But It's all easy to explain if he did.

Edited January 23, 2016 by WindyNights

[DigitalCount]

Continuing the AJT derail:

 

I don't know. Tywin never made the real concerted effort I'd expect him to make to get Tyrion killed until the opportunity practically did a somersault and landed in his lap. If Tywin suspected Tyrion wasn't his in truth instead of just using that as a mean-spirited jab, Tyrion would have been dead long ago, with some sort of plausible reason for how it happened. Look at Randyll Tarly. Do we really think Tywin wouldn't have gone that far? They didn't expect Tyrion to live anyway; who's going to do the autopsy? Freaking Pycelle? Good luck having any of that sully Tywin's rep.

 

Besides, I assume Tywin knows how to do math. If Tywin was truly so angered regarding Aerys and hated the idea of being laughed at, he'd have done what he could to ensure Tyrion's death. A man vindictive enough for the Rains of Castamere and Tysha's treatment--not to mention that of his own "son"--would have gone harder than Tywin did. And he certainly wouldn't have included the detail of making Tyrion pay extra. No one would have looked askance at Tyrion being forced to pay a silver rather than a gold coin. If Tyrion isn't his son and he knows or suspects it, he included that extra twist for nothing, as a nose-cutting gesture to spite his own face.

 

Furthermore, the events have to make sense sequentially, not just satisfy a certain perspective that I don't really subscribe to regarding Tywin and Tyrion's relationship. The characters and their motivations have to remain sound, and everything has to be plotted out properly. Does this whole fiasco work, as far as Joanna, Tywin, Aerys and any servants of any of these characters are concerned? My feeling is that it does not.

[Terra Nova]

You are right, Shimpy, we were talking about two different lines ^^' for some reason I misremembered and I thought this line:

 

 

Baratheon or Bolton, it made no matter to him. Stannis had made common cause with Jon Snow at the Wall, and Jon would take his head off in a heartbeat. Plucked from the clutches of one bastard to die at the hands of another, what a jape. Theon would have laughed aloud if he'd remembered how.

 

to be said in the hall instead of on the battlements; so when I mentioned 'what Theon said in the hall' you thought about Holly and the 'don't touch me', since it caught your attention. Then I interpreted your answer as a 'yes, the joke, but I think him being assertive is more important', and so on... lol.

[WindyNights]

Continuing the AJT derail:

I don't know. Tywin never made the real concerted effort I'd expect him to make to get Tyrion killed until the opportunity practically did a somersault and landed in his lap. If Tywin suspected Tyrion wasn't his in truth instead of just using that as a mean-spirited jab, Tyrion would have been dead long ago, with some sort of plausible reason for how it happened. Look at Randyll Tarly. Do we really think Tywin wouldn't have gone that far? They didn't expect Tyrion to live anyway; who's going to do the autopsy? Freaking Pycelle? Good luck having any of that sully Tywin's rep.

Besides, I assume Tywin knows how to do math. If Tywin was truly so angered regarding Aerys and hated the idea of being laughed at, he'd have done what he could to ensure Tyrion's death. A man vindictive enough for the Rains of Castamere and Tysha's treatment--not to mention that of his own "son"--would have gone harder than Tywin did. And he certainly wouldn't have included the detail of making Tyrion pay extra. No one would have looked askance at Tyrion being forced to pay a silver rather than a gold coin. If Tyrion isn't his son and he knows or suspects it, he included that extra twist for nothing, as a nose-cutting gesture to spite his own face.

Furthermore, the events have to make sense sequentially, not just satisfy a certain perspective that I don't really subscribe to regarding Tywin and Tyrion's relationship. The characters and their motivations have to remain sound, and everything has to be plotted out properly. Does this whole fiasco work, as far as Joanna, Tywin, Aerys and any servants of any of these characters are concerned? My feeling is that it does not.

Aerys was jealous of Tywin and he wanted to bone Joanna. One day while she's there and Tywin isn't, Aerys has the guards seize her to rape her. Joanna is so ashamed and fears what Tywin might do that he doesn't tell him. She doesn't realize she's pregnant at first but when she starts to show, Tywin notices and Joanna is too scared to tell him the truth so she keeps it rather than abort it which would require an explanation to Tywin as to why she did that.

[dragonbone]

Another aspect of the Tyrion thing are the similarities across Jon, Dany and Tyrion.  They are all POV characters, they have all killed their mother at birth, they all have killed a lover. If the theories are correct, then none of them actually knew their birth father. 

 

Even if the three are not related by blood GRRM is holding them up as distorted mirror images of each other in way that he isn't doing with his other characters.

Edited January 23, 2016 by dragonbone

[Mya Stone]

Alright guys...I think there are other places we can take the Tyrion's possible parentage debate.

Aka you don't have to go home but you can't stay here.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, as I promise Mya, I got through Tyrion's freaking chapter, nearly dead from boredom throughout the entire damned thing.  Whatever.  Meet Yellowbelly.  I like Penny, or at least I've no reason to dislike her, and being kind to her is the only decent thing Tyrion's done in an age and a half.  I was genuinely surprised that both the dog and the pig have survived thus far, and I'm sure Nurse will turn out to be some new variety of monster, yet undiscovered. 

 

And as soon as I saw it was a Jaime chapter, things started to get interesting.  So Jonos Bracken and Lord Blackwood were both very interesting.  I liked Hoster Blackwood right away and he's an interesting character.  I love the attitude of the people of Pennytree, by the way.  "Right. No.  Fuck right on off with your 'we're King's men stuff, one King sucks as much as the next as far as we're concerned."  

 

Right up until the gobsmacker of an end to that chapter I was enjoying the hell out of that chapter and chiefly wondering what Jaime was thinking about by thinking he'd have to tell Myrcella.  I like the newly honorable Jaime and of course, was upset by the Bracken's poisoning a thousand year old Weirwood.  

 

The clarity of history becomes the fog of legend is a great line and I don't think I've ever encountered it before. 

 

But what the fuck is going at the end?  The Hound has...Sansa and will kill her if Jaime doesn't come immediately?  It's really difficult to believe that Brienne would lie to Jaime, but none of that seems likely or even all that possible.  I know The Hound is actually alive and all that and I guess Brienne might lie to Jaime to save Pod, etc. but it...seems so incredibly unlikely and I guess I'm going to see what Jaime Lannister makes of UnCat, Lady Stoneheart?  

 

So it would seem.  As surprising as that was, since the last I saw of Brienne she was poised to die and shouting out one word that was saving the lot of them -- presumably -- and I'm not really sure this whole thing makes a metric ton of sense.  

[WindyNights]

Well I guess I can clarify that. LS told Brienne to make a choice between the sword or the noose before she started hanging her.

The one word she shouted was sword and she only did so because while she was hanging she was thinking of saving Pod's life.

Edited January 24, 2016 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

WindyNights,

shimpy doesn't know that this is the end of this plot thread in this book, which makes what you said sound like a huge spoiler, and the only way to clarify that it isn't is to spoil that this plot is over for the rest of the book...

[stillshimpy]

By the way, for all of you chart the progress of my likely death by apoplexy, I have thwarted the great horned one (Martin) by settling for exactly one, spirited "Oh fuck you, already" on the dog skinny detail. 

 

I'm trying to just view it as a livestock mention.   But then again, I don't eat meat, so there's that.  So I resort to think of a salmon, because those, I will still eat.  

 

But yes, Fuck you, Martin, fuck you to the moon on this stuff. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

I thought those two chapters were interesting character developments for the Lannister brothers. The one self pitying drunkard feels responsible for an innocent girl and the other self pitying arrogant jerk shows himself to be an able diplomat. Tywin would be appalled.

[stillshimpy]

I loved Jaime's chapter.  He is so much more interesting to me now that he does something other than snark endlessly and pine for Cersei. 

 

Also, so that you all know, Mya went ahead and tried to spare my cerebral integrity by warning me that there's going to be something even more god awful than usual in regards to a dog coming up in a Theon chapter.  She did basically outline what it was and she was wise to just rip the band aid off because I'm sure I would have melted into a profane puddle of red hot coals and venom.  

 

Jesus Christ, Martin, that seems wholly unnecessary on a truly revolting level. 

 

ETA:  Although it is at least slightly amusing that my honest reaction to "So I'm worried about how you'll react to something...." was to immediately know, "What does he do to a dog now?" was the issue.  

 

Also, until such time as I'm able to finish up selling two houses  -- one in Denver, one here -- this is what my Saturday Nights will consist of entirely.  Hanging at home, with my dogs.  It's almost a pity I've hit the last 35 % of the books, because it's not like I have jack-all to do at nights for a bit :-) 

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I'm still furious that they cut this bit from the show: 'And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.' All they needed was one scene in front of the Heart Tree with Alfie Allen saying those (slightly altered) words, and people would have loved it. It was one of the scenes I was looking forward to most of that entire season. I cried when I read that line. Like, actually stopped reading and had a little cry. But they cut everything that made the Northern plot great; basically, all that's left of it is 'Ramsey rapes his wife, Theon is there.' No Manderly, no murders, no wildlings, not even much of Theon; just Ramsey rapes his wife. Not to mention that Littlefinger, Roose and Sansa all had to take an IQ drop for that ridiculous scenario to happen.

 

Definitely with you on the dog thing though. Sometimes I want to kick that man's arse.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Ah, the Blackwoods and the Brackens. FYI, the Blackwood woman who Aegon IV left his Bracken mistress for was Bloodraven's mother, and the Bracken woman was Bittersteel's mother. No wonder those two were such enemies.

[Lady S.]

Right up until the gobsmacker of an end to that chapter I was enjoying the hell out of that chapter and chiefly wondering what Jaime was thinking about by thinking he'd have to tell Myrcella.  I like the newly honorable Jaime and of course, was upset by the Bracken's poisoning a thousand year old Weirwood.  

 

The clarity of history becomes the fog of legend is a great line and I don't think I've ever encountered it before. 

 

But what the fuck is going at the end?  The Hound has...Sansa and will kill her if Jaime doesn't come immediately?  It's really difficult to believe that Brienne would lie to Jaime, but none of that seems likely or even all that possible.  I know The Hound is actually alive and all that and I guess Brienne might lie to Jaime to save Pod, etc. but it...seems so incredibly unlikely and I guess I'm going to see what Jaime Lannister makes of UnCat, Lady Stoneheart?  

 

So it would seem.  As surprising as that was, since the last I saw of Brienne she was poised to die and shouting out one word that was saving the lot of them -- presumably -- and I'm not really sure this whole thing makes a metric ton of sense.

I think Jaime just wants to tell Myrcella he's her father, or did you mean what the hell was he thinking believing that secret was no longer dangerous with Robert dead? The latter is what I thought when he wished he knew whether Tommen would rather have a throne or a father, as if that was actually a choice (and as if the wishes of a 9yo should determine a situation which the 9yo can't possibly understand).

I assume the Brotherhood are lurking nearby with Pod still as hostage to make Brienne lure into a trap.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Lady S.

[Terra Nova]

I loved that little meta line in Jaime chapter about wanting to ask Hos the Hostage about the tree in Pennytree, but that would have spoiled the mistery.

The feather cloak is incredibly stylish and I loved how dignified poor Lord Blackwood is (to be honest, it's pretty clear Martin has a soft spot for this family). I like to think that every now and then Bloodraven goes back home in one of the ravens, butbprobably the real Bloodraven would deem it too sugary.

 

And I liked how easily Tyrion sees through the façade of Brown Ben Plumm at the auction, noticing how his smiles never reach the eyes - which is almost word-for-word what Sansa thinks of Creepyfinger - and even wondering if it's a great idea to be bought by such a human specimen. I was also a little bit baffled in the show how once again they went the opposite direction of the books for no apparent reason: here Tyrion is whipped everytime he tries to talk, in the show he beats an overseer and the masters find the unruly violent slave hilarious. Go figure.

 

 

@ WSmith84:

Truth to be told, they put a similar line in S3 when Theon thinks he just escaped from... whomever was keeping him. He says that his real father died in King's Landing and that he chose wrong. Which, while roughly fits the book counterpart - but it seems to me that Theon too never truly warmed to Ned, death risk hanging on his head and such, while he grew fond of Robb and Bran, at least -, it's in the wrong place in Theon's arc: in the books you have betrayal - punishment (misguided and off-page) - regret -> the reader should now feel sympathy for Theon. Even those who don't like him as a character admit he suffered enough.

 

In the show instead Theon voices his regret almost immediately and without having truly earned the moment, and from then onwards it's a torture-porn fest for three seasons and a half, without Theon showing significant changes until the last episode. It just falls flat. The third act is switched with the second one and there is no emotional pay-off.

I've seen show-watchers only truly warming to Theon when he says to Ramsay he was wrong, but later just lamenting how dragged his story arc was, and I can't really object to this.

 

The other main problem is the lack of Northern Lords: in the show there is a single family of them flayed for not bending the knee (Cerwyns? Tallharts? I don't remember), and nothing more: one could even assume that the rest is now loyal or at least grudgingly obedient. So a marriage with Sansa shouldn't be that necessary. But since of course the show tries so hard to sell us the concept that no, Sansa is truly the key of the North and that the marriage is absolutely crucial, then you need the lords in Winterfell to back up the notion. It's not only an adaptational problem - since the series claims to be based on books, ya know -, but an inherent one: the Northern arc in the show Just.Doesn't.Make.Sense.

And I give credit where it's due: the marriage in the godswood had a perfect atmosphere, the gloom, the mist, the half-seen lights along the path, the part of me not lashing out for the imminent rape was looking forward to Theon's scenes that would have surely took place there some episode later. Such a waste. I mean, when Theon-as-Reek-as-Theon retakes Moat Cailin and starts to break in front of the Ironborn captain Alfie Allen even muttered "Reek... Reek... it rhymes with weak".

 

ETA: (not for Shimpy)

and in Daznak's Pit they're selling unborn puppies on a stick! Poor Shimpy ^^'

Edited January 24, 2016 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

But what the fuck is going at the end?  The Hound has...Sansa and will kill her if Jaime doesn't come immediately?  It's really difficult to believe that Brienne would lie to Jaime, but none of that seems likely or even all that possible.  I know The Hound is actually alive and all that and I guess Brienne might lie to Jaime to save Pod, etc. but it...seems so incredibly unlikely and I guess I'm going to see what Jaime Lannister makes of UnCat, Lady Stoneheart?

 

What's with some spoilers for season 6 for the show I have a theory about how that Jaime/Brienne encounter might go on there at least, which would make Brienne "technically" not lying.

The name Sansa is never mentioned. Jaime asks: "The girl, have you found her?" And Brienne says: "Yes, the Hound has her." Brienne might lead him to Arya (who comes back to Westeros) and the Hound (who comes back to help her kill some Freys or so). Arya on the show will likely stand in for Lady Stoneheart here, I think. There is no way it will happen like this in the books though.

 

And yes, Jaime is definitely contemplating telling Myrcella (and Tommen) about being her/their father, that's why he thinks the Dornish will be pissed. Yeah, Jaime baby, that would only be the start of that.

Edited January 24, 2016 by ambi76

[WindyNights]

Yeah I don't get the outrage over the dog thing. Maybe I read it differently but to me it was never something that happened just something that Ramsay planned to happen.

[Haleth]

Yeah, I don't think it happened either.  Only that it was a taunt or a threat to further weaken her.  But yeah, unborn puppies on a stick is going to earn another, "Come on, Martin!"

[stillshimpy]

Well, you direct your outrage where you feel it is appropriate Windy Nights, and I'll direct mine where I feel it is appropriate and I'll get to Scotland before ye...or something.   Clearly joking at least a little bit, but that's always going to be the case when someone doesn't find a theme upsetting and someone else does.  It's just a case of people having different sensitivities and feeling with none being more valid or invalid than another person's feelings on the matter.  If you don't find Martin's thematic and repeated treatment of dogs in the books upsetting, then that's actually a good thing for you.  You likely take fewer Advil than I do. 

 

 

 

I'm still furious that they cut this bit from the show: 'And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.' All they needed was one scene in front of the Heart Tree with Alfie Allen saying those (slightly altered) words, and people would have loved it.

 

There is one thing about the Theon/Reek story that both the show and the books did well.  In the show they went ahead and showed beforehand that much of what Theon does is in a desperate quest simply to be loved, validated and considered part of a family.  They successfully played that note with Theon throughout, including having him emotionally attached to Ros.  When he goes to Pyke Alfie Allen played that all beautifully and they included a nice scene of his writing Robb to warn him and then burning the letter.  

 

So in the show, the only person who doesn't really understand that he loved the Starks is Theon.  He asks Robb is he is brother and saves Bran -- only to get yelled at for doing it in too risky a manner -- whereas the character doesn't have emotional insight into his own actions, the audience can.  Since the show has been very hit-or-miss on adequately developing reliable emotional traits, it's at least noteworthy that they did pull it off with Theon.  

 

Then they sort of ruined it with the Torture Fest that even the guys who wrote the Saw series were probably thinking "Too far, too far.  There's room for nuance!" 

 

The moment in the godswood is so incredibly sad and painful for an added reason:  We know that Bran likely hears him, which make it that much more moving and the stuff of honest-to-goodness sorrow.   It also fits with one of the better themes in the books that has to do with the importance of identity and self-actualization.  Theon just wants to belong to something known.  It's such a known and recognizable trait.  It's very poignant and managed to be so throughout the book, because Martin did make it clear that Theon was engaging in willful denial of his own feelings at Winterfell.  He was baffled and hurt that the people of Winterfell simply despised him rather than loving and respecting him. 

 

I do think he loved and respected Ned Stark in the same way that someone Martin's age probably related to their own fathers.  It's kind of a weird thought considering what open relationships most people have with their kids now, but Martin's from a generation where dads weren't as emotionally accessible.  They often were people who just worked, came home, didn't necessarily interact a ton with their kids...but everyone involved still had the same emotional impulses.  A dad as a distant, seemingly cold figure whose approval was never fully granted was a fairly common thing within living history in our world.  

 

It does become apparent that Theon loved Ned, even if he doesn't understand that he did, simply because Theon wants the same emotional ground that Ned stood on when he seizes Winterfell.  So that part was already spelled out, but he'd never really touched upon his feelings for the Stark kids and it was just tragic that he stood in the godswood and said those words.  Poor Theon had been his own worst enemy throughout, because Robb did love and trust him.  Robb did seemingly relate to him as a brother.  Theon  went chasing after something he already actually had and destroyed it all.  

 

That was a poignant theme.  I think George Martin does some things very well indeed, but enough with the dog stuff, dude.  I mean, really. 

 

 

 

I think Jaime just wants to tell Myrcella he's her father, or did you mean what the hell was he thinking believing that secret was no longer dangerous with Robert dead? The latter is what I thought when he wished he knew whether Tommen would rather have a throne or a father, as if that was actually a choice (and as if the wishes of a 9yo should determine a situation which the 9yo can't possibly understand).

 

He also seemed to think about things like disappointing Trystane, so I thought it was implied that he knew that it would blow the Dornish match, hence my confusion.  "I'm your dad, don't tell anyone" would be one thing.  "I'm your dad, and I understand why this might be awkward, since it will bugger your intended marriage" is another.  The frist has emotional implications, like whoa, the latter also has them, but carries with them world wrecking implications.  

 

I wasn't sure if I was gauging that correctly though because there's no way to fire that shot in just one area of the world.  It would have giant implications and would also seemingly negate pretty much everything Jaime is doing -- taking hostages for the crown, etc.  -- if he's basically planning on dropping the "So the thing is...surprise!  Ned Stark wasn't lying.  Oopsie!! Bygones?" 

 

So that's why I was confused.  It didn't seem like he could really be planning on telling Myrcella and not understanding that it would knock the pins out from underneath the rest of the Westorosi world, again.  Honestly, that land has suffered enough for Jaime's cracked labido and even Ned Stark understood that there are some honorable lies that must be told. 

 

Which of course brings me to Brienne and yeah, I was chatting with Mya about the only way I can see Brienne lying to Jaime is if it is the only way to spare Pod and others.  It would still be a little surprising is all.   However, whereas Martin might be something of a trope breaker (or trope disguiser seems more accurate) , he does seem to follow some structural rules and one of them would seemingly be that before Jaime can continue on any sort of redemptive path he's going to have to face one of the things his affair with Cersei helped bring about:  What remains of Catelyn Stark. 

 

So that's what I assume Brienne is leading him to, the proverbial Chekhov's gun moment, because that crazy, cruel, destroyed and vindictive thing in the woods is Jaime's Mountainstein as much as she is Frey and Bolton's creation.  They acted knowingly, whereas that's just the ripple in the chaos pond from Jaime's world wrecking actions.  

 

People talk about Littlefinger being the agent of Chaos, but Jaime and Cersei's entire relationship has had insane levels of fallout.  

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

So that's what I assume Brienne is leading him to, the proverbial Chekhov's gun moment, because that crazy, cruel, destroyed and vindictive thing in the woods is Jaime's Mountainstein as much as she is Frey and Bolton's creation.  They acted knowingly, whereas that's just the ripple in the chaos pond from Jaime's world wrecking actions.

 

True.  Brienne doesn't know any of this though.  She would have accepted her own death rather than betray Jaime, but the threat to Pod was a deal breaker.  When given Sophie's choice Bri had to choose the one least able to defend himself.  Pod is just a kid who is continually in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Bri probably feels that Jaime at least has a chance of either fighting or talking his way out of hanging.  She knows that it was impossible for him to fulfill his promise to Catelyn to bring the girls to her and maybe he can make Stoneheart understand.  What Bri doesn't know is that Jaime had a hand in the Red Wedding and there is absolutely no mercy in Stoneheart.  Perhaps she is planning on fighting with Jaime.  It would be ironic if Catelyn is killed (again) with what remains of Ned's sword.

[Delta1212]

I don't think Jaime actually did have a hand in the Red Wedding except indirectly as a consequence of the larger blowing up of the realm because of his actions and guilt by association of being a Lannister.

[Mya Stone]

Yeah. I tend to think Jaime absolutely knew shit was about to go down when he had his dinner with Roose, but I don't think he knew the depth of the shit. He probably thought Robb would be captured or killed, that his men would be ransomed, and that Cat would be a hostage. Hence his "Send Robb Stark my regards" message.

But that he had a hand in it? Nope. Not a bit. I don't think even he foresaw the level of betrayal about to happen.

[stillshimpy]

But it doesn't matter if he knew or not.  No one ends up in that room without what Jaime did.  It's not even an indirect consequence, it's a pretty direct one.  Robb never needs to break an Oath with Frey unless he had to make one in the first place.  

 

I get that Jaime is a popular character, but the dude has entire universe's worth of responsibility with which to contend.  Every burned out pile he passes, every raped woman, ever sacked village.  Theon, Robb the Redd Wedding, Karstark being dead:  the shove felt round the world starts with Jaime Lannister and his actions aren't defensible because "He was protecting his children" ...he wasn't.  He didn't give a shit about his children then, he just wanted to keep screwing his twin sister.  

 

And we can piece together all the other moments that led to every other second of misery in this story, but Jaime and Cersei Lannister started it, not in that tower room but because they were screwing and would do anything to protect that sexual access for years beforehand.   Now Littlefinger might have had Jon Arryn murdered anyway, so at least that one is not on him, but Robert having no true heir was a big fucking problem too and that's thanks to the Dynamic Duo of Shit-Starters: Team Twin Lannister. 

 

The Redd Wedding where the guest rights were broken is just another part of the crumbling of the code in that world.  Reading the Dunk and Egg tales, the most significant thing in any of the stories attached to this universe has arguably been Jaime killing Aerys.

 

He's interesting and it was a lift to my reading experience to see his POV at the top of a chapter , but no one ends up at the Redd Wedding if Jaime Lannister didn't try to kill Brandon Stark for what he saw, that Jaime shouldn't have been doing.  

 

ETA:  I have to admit, there's only one reason that the concept of Lyanna Stark going willingly with Rhaegar Targaryen would appeal to me and that's so that Jaime and Cersei's world-wrecking selfishness shares the stage with others.   It would certainly make for a very well-rounded theme if people, just in the course of being people, willfully engaging in terribly selfish activities were really at the root of the utter destruction of a world.  

 

If some silly girl being all of 15 or 16 and thinking that all that mattered was the happiness of her heart and other parts was a huge contributing factor to the seemingly never-ending shit storm to follow, that would at least be fitting and stop pointing a neon sign at the Destructo Twins. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I don't really think the show does a good job of showing the flip side to Theon's situation. The Starks on the show are all good, they're the heroes, and Ned is the nice and honorable foster dad. One of the things that surprised me most during the reread is seeing how Bran feels about Theon from his very first chapters. Bran feels like Theon doesn't belong and seems to have similar feelings about Theon that he has about the two Walders. He also seems to resent Theon's closeness with Robb. This doesn't apply to Jon with Bran but with Theon it does. I really get the vibe that Robb was the only one who actually liked Theon and welcomed him and accepted him with open arms. The others only tolerate him because they're forced to and I find it hard to believe that Theon didn't feel it. 

 

Obviously I don't think any of this excuses what Theon did but I don't think the hostage part of his situation was emphasized enough nor do I think the show does a good job of showing the difference between his experience of growing up at Winterfell with Jon's. Even though Jon's station is lower he had the love and acceptance of everyone in the family save Catelyn and possibly Sansa. Theon seems like he dealt with more chilliness overall.  

 

If the showrunners had known that the show would be such a monster hit, I think they would have considered allowing the story to linger at Winterfell for maybe three episodes as opposed to two to get a better idea of what life was like for the Starks and various characters prior to and directly after Bran's fall. See more interaction between Robb, Jon, and Theon, and Sansa, Arya, and Jeyne. There was a huge missed opportunity on the show to include Ros rather than Jeyne. Jeyne could have fulfilled a similar function and she could have been an interesting foil for Sansa and it would have been interesting to contrast their interactions with Littlefinger. 

 

I disagree that Jaime had a hand in the red wedding. I also disagree that saving lives wasn't a factor for Jaime when he pushed Bran. He wanted to save his sister's life and keep her safe. Yes, he wanted to continue their selfish and destructive affair but saving lives was the primary motive. You can't have sex if you're dead. He was trying to keep everyone alive with that gesture including the children. That he'd get to continue on with the affair is a bonus and one that isn't even guaranteed because as we see they keep their distance after that scare prior to Jaime's capture. 

[WSmith84]

The thing is, every time Jaime and Cersei had sex, they knew that if they were caught that they would probably have to silence whoever caught them. So the excuse of protecting their family falls flat because it wouldn't be an issue if they just stopped fucking.

[Avaleigh]

The thing is, every time Jaime and Cersei had sex, they knew that if they were caught that they would probably have to silence whoever caught them. So the excuse of protecting their family falls flat because it wouldn't be an issue if they just stopped fucking.

This is fair enough. I'm thinking of them recklessly having sex next to a passed out Robert and Jaime thinking that he'd have to kill him if he were to wake up. I think they chose that tower because they were *sure* it had been abandoned and didn't want to be seen, but I agree. They should have just stopped although I can see how it's something that is easier said than done when they'd been able to go without getting caught in fourteen years or however long it had been.

 

ETA:

 

I've always stopped short at laying the entire war at their feet though. That's ignoring so many other factors. I just think it's easy to point to because no one is going to argue that incest is bad. Still, it didn't have to come to war even after Bran's fall. I would also argue that war would have happened without Bran ever having been thrown. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Avaleigh

[stillshimpy]

I disagree that Jaime had a hand in the red wedding.

There is a world difference between saying that something is a consequence of an action and saying that someone had a hand in the planning of something.  At no point have I said, implied, or hinted that Jaime Lannister had a hand in planning the Redd Wedding. 

 

Jaime Lannister's actions put everyone in that position.  That does not mean he had a hand planning it, but it also doesn't mean that absolves him of responsibility for it.  

 

 

 

I also disagree that saving lives wasn't a factor for Jaime when he pushed Bran. He wanted to save his sister's life and keep her safe.

 

This seeks to isolate that one moment and attempts to make it exist in a vacuum.  As WSmith points out it isn't that moment of fucking that fucks the world, it's the fact that they had been fucking for years and then Cersei in all her dimwitted glory, made sure the King didn't have an heir, which is the really brainless part of it all. 

 

But again, we have had this exact exchange before and it always leads to the exact same place: He's never there if he isn't having a treasonous affair over a decade's duration with his twin sister.  The only reason either of their lives are in danger is because they will not keep in her their pants.  That's his sister, already a known "don't hit that" .  His twin sister.  So the ick is compounded and multiplied.  Oh and it's treason so THEY DIE if they're found.  Compounded to the 'nth degree.  

 

And he's taken an Oath of lifelong celibacy as part of the Kingsguard which is the point at which it just becomes laughable levels of fucking up. 

 

But the only life-threatening necessity created there is because of his own choices, his own actions, his willful ignoring of all consequences. 

 

Blame, meet Jaime.  Jamie? Blame.  Consequences for everyone not even having orgasms to cushion the blow rain from the fucking sky and create an ark-building deluge.  It's also Cersei's fault, who is, if anything, even more at fault because she set out to seduce her twin brother and has used her powers of sexual enthrallment over him with abandon.  Unlike Jaime, it's not even really about love for her, because she doesn't seem capable of love.  The only tiny shred of slack I would cut Jaime is that he truly believed himself to be in love with Cersei.  She knew it, exploited it and is so much of a psycho she exploited it. 

 

And moving onwards.  

 

Just finished a Jon chapter in which Alys Karstark is married to the Magnar of Thenn and once again, whereas it's smart on one hand, it also requires Jon to keep acting like he doesn't understand that he also once viewed the Wildlings as dishonest and threatening in all that they did and represented.  

 

It's kind of a perfect balance of immature thinking combined with the ability to see a good end game. 

 

And need it be said that the wreck of the Karstarks?  Also related to "and you know what would have helped the North not lose their fucking collective minds and go to war? If Jaime and Cersei Lannister hadn't been so intent on fucking....up the world." 

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Still, it didn't have to come to war even after Bran's fall. I would also argue that war would have happened without Bran ever having been thrown.

 

Right, but does war still happen if Robert Baratheon has an actual heir? Does Robb Stark end up wounded at the Westerlings and ripe for succumbing to the wiles of whichever Westerling thought it was a good idea to send a virginal teen daughter to nurse him?  I could go on here, but that's the theme of the point. 

 

We can't know that and can only work from the set of circumstances set out in the story and in this story a world of whoop-ass-world-bending shit was opened because of that moment.  They might have happened differently and in a manner does not end with the Revenge Zombie that is Lady Stoneheart stringing people up in her post-death-bid-for-purposefully orchestrating shit, but in this story? 

 

That all happened because Catelyn Stark seized Tyrion Lannister and she seized Tyrion Lannister for reasons directly relating to Lannister Screwing Practices.   Why is Ned Stark murdered, which is what leads to the King in the North?  These are rhetorical questions because we know why.  

 

The structure of the story thus far has Jaime Lannister needing to face the woman whose child he attempted to murder to protect his screwing practices.   He actually does need to know that it was part of creating an actual complete abomination.   Not just because "Revenge! Judgment!" but because a well structured story would include that.  

 

Plus, I am actually interested in knowing what his thought process would be upon having to face that.  Right now Jaime has come to recognize that his entire relationship with Cersei was like a form of mental illness, not because ....it's essentially a form of mental illness....but because Cersei wasn't emotionally faithful to him.

 

"I was wrong, because she didn't feel the same way" is different from "That was wrong and destructive not merely to myself and all that I am, but look what one of the ripples from it was...a demon from the bowels of hell...."  

 

Because Jaime's regret, as it exists now, will it withstand seeing Cersei again for any length time?  Even he seems worried about that as he frets about facing Cersei....like he'll have something for which to apologize.   

 

I'm interested in knowing who and what Jaime becomes in the wake of seeing Fallout: The Extreme Home Edition.  

 

Against all odds, Jaime has actually become an interesting character to me because he's one of the few characters in this story who is trying to become a better version of himself. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

That all happened because Catelyn Stark seized Tyrion Lannister and she seized Tyrion Lannister for reasons directly relating to Lannister Screwing Practices.

 

 

I agree with this in addition to throwing Littlfinger and Lysa onto the war starting pile. I think they're all to blame. When I think of the destruction of the Riverlands specifically I'd say that six main characters in the story are directly to blame. In no particular order, Littlefinger, Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Catelyn, and Lysa. 

 

Ned too also had an opportunity to keep the realm out of war but ultimately thought war was preferable. I think there were multiple points where the war could have been stopped before it started but then of course we wouldn't have a story. 

[stillshimpy]

Right, but only Catelyn and Ned were actually trying to work within the rules of that world as it stood.  Only they were actually trying to adhere to what was right.  

 

One of the things that would have saved that world?  If Robb Stark could have been the kind of guy who said, "Hey sorry about your hymen and all, but drink some Moon Tea and I'll grant your father lands and find you a good husband.  Thanks for the roll in the hay."  

 

But no....because Ned Stark, whether or not he actually did the deed, created his own fallout when he brought home Jon and either rightfully claimed him to be his son, or did so to protect someone else's regrettable screwing practices.  

 

Game of Thrones:  A Tale of What Happens When You Don't Keep it Stowed In Your Pants. 

[Haleth]

Perhaps my comment about Jaime's complicity wrt the Red Wedding should have been stated differently. I meant that Stoneheart feels that Jaime was involved and she will not be open to any denials.

Regarding Theon, growing up was he an obnoxious jerk as an act of rebellion against the chilliness of his "foster family" or were they not warm and cuddly because he was an obnoxious jerk to everyone? The psychology of Theon could fill a book. (Not that I want to give Martin any more distracting ideas.)

Had the twins not been acting inappropriately in the tower or had Bran not caught them, the war would still have occurred. Of course Cat would not have grabbed Tyrion, but Ned was in KL playing super sleuth, figuring out for himself why Arryn was killed and how screwed up the Lannister family was. As soon as he confronted Cersei he was doomed and the war was inevitable.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Haleth

[Terra Nova]

I think at some point the true parentage of Cersei's children would have surfaced anyway: while I suspect all the Small Council knew, we have evidence that Renly did for sure: all his plan to make Bob reject Cersei in favor of Margaery hinges on Cersei being unfaithful; there would be no gain for the Tyrells otherwise, since they would win few years of reing in court with the new queen and any eventual child of hers coming last in the succession, and the, once Joffrey  ascended to the Throne, they would have faced his wroth and vengeance for having despoiled and humiliated his mother.

But every possible future war hinges on the children being illegitimate: even a Targ invasion as planned in original timeline would be crushed in no time by a united kingdom.

 

Why is Ned Stark murdered?

 

Well, that was not the original plan (and war was still avoidable up to that point), though, and to quote Varys:

 

Varys smiled. “[...] Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or… another?”

[...]
Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
“So power is a mummer’s trick?”
“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

Edited January 24, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

I think at some point the true parentage of Cersei's children would have surfaced anyway

 

Again, not treating the tower room moment as existing in a vacuum....that still brings the arrow of "YOU DID THIS" to Jaime and Cerei Lannisters Practice o' the Loose Pants. 

 

If absolutely nothing else?  Try having a couple of kids by your husband, the King  so that no one goes on a "Why don't any of those children look a thing like Robert Baratheon?" fact finding mission.  Littlefinger killing Jon Arryn might even have happened regardless, because he's Littlefinger, he should practically trot across the floor on cloven hooves, accompanied by a whiff of brimstone, but if Jaime Lannister had less dreadful taste in women, that too might have gone differently.  

 

And you know, normally I'd say -- and even the show saw this as a good enough point that they changed the story to reflect it -- that Robert not being a perfect shit of a husband might not have actually hurt the situation any, but that isn't why Cersei set out to seduce Jaime.  

 

If Robert had been the nicest man on....whatever Westeros's planet is called....Cersei was still a psycho.  

 

If someone is really, really inclined to figure out a way for Jaime and Cersei to still get their weird freak on, then perhaps the rule ought to at least be ammended:  If you have to screw a womb-mate, at least make sure they're not an insane psycho and have better life-planning skills than to prevent the King from having any legitimate issue...out of spite.  

Edited January 24, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

Right, but only Catelyn and Ned were actually trying to work within the rules of that world as it stood.

 

 

As I've mentioned, I feel that Catelyn wasn't following the rules of their world when she kidnapped an innocent man and later didn't want him to have a trial. She had other options here but she made a wrong decision and there were huge consequences for that decision. I understand that she wanted justice for her son and that her reasons were honorable but there were other ways in their society that she could have gone about getting it especially since her husband was the second most powerful man in the realm at the time. 

 

Why is Ned Stark murdered?

Well, that was not the original plan (and war was still avoidable up to that point), though, and to quote Varys:

 

 

Yeah, there are at least two points in ACoK where it's confirmed that Cersei really did want Ned to go to the Wall. That was the plan and I suspect that Littlefinger was the one to whisper in Joffrey's ear. 

 

Game of Thrones:  A Tale of What Happens When You Don't Keep it Stowed In Your Pants.

 

 

Seriously, the list on this one is pretty long. Even with minor characters like Arys Oakheart.

[WSmith84]

Jaime: should I put my penis inside this lady?

Jaime's penis: will putting me inside this lady require you to kill anyone who sees it and potentially start a civil war?

Jaime: yes.

Penis: please find a different lady.

Jaime: ...

Penis: ...

Jaime: I really like this lady

* civil war occurs *

Penis: ... Told you so