Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Protar]

Now I want to see if I can come up with the

8 on my own. Heh, I'm suddenly reminded of Robert telling Renly about making the 8.

 

There's probably a few more. I've remembered another couple already. Not for Shimpy's eyes:

 

• Ros
• Talisa
• The Spice King
• Locke
• Olly
• Olyvar
• Myranda
• Karl the Fookin Legend
• Mossadar (the ex-slave Dany executes)
• Karsi

[stillshimpy]

Okay, good to know.  I guess it makes sense that they still haven't confirmed whether or not it was merely an abduction because all the people who'd know are dead.   

 

Here's one thing though:  It's not like I'd blame Lyanna for not being over the moon about the concept of being pledged to Robert, but here's a sticking point in the "She was young, foolish....maybe she was like Sansa..." we already know that isn't the case.  Ned's memories indicate a young woman savvy enough to understand that Robert wouldn't be keeping it at home after being married.  

 

That's more worldly than Ned in that memory.  Ned says, "Oh no, he'll settle down after marriage" (or words to that effect) and Lyanna is the one with enough of an understanding about how the world works to doubt what Ned is saying.  I'm not ever going to buy that woman as being too starry eyed to think about what she was doing.  That's already leaving Sansa in the damned dust when it comes to be pragmatic.  

 

But I hear you on how things change over time.   I swear to you, the first time I ever had any exposure to Henry VIII's relationship with Anne Boleyn , I had some blame in my heart for Catherine of Aragon.  No shit.  Really.  I'm mortified by the concept now, but I was kid, my own parents were divorced and I just didn't get why it was so incredibly horrible that Henry wanted to set her aside for a younger woman, who could deliver a son.  

 

I was rather heartlessly on the side of "Jeez, the religious freak couldn't accept that he needed an heir, he didn't love her any more....why raise such a stink?"  I didn't understand it would make her only surviving child illegitimate and that was a BIG deal.  Or that she'd actually had sons with Henry who (contrary to the cliff notes version of their history) ....at least one was thriving and healthy, kept in a special castle where Henry had the walls washed trying to keep him healthy (since they'd already lost a different son to illness) ...and the poor thing died before he was three.   So not only was Catherine being tossed out like garbage, she thought it would literally damn her to a hell she actually believed in and her child too.  

 

So I feel you on the "Boy, when I was younger, I had different views."  By the time I was formally studying the subject matter, I was old enough to have it start to dawn on me "Holy carp, what he wanted to do was terrible...." and then I got to details like "...and he had her living in drafty, ill-cared for castles after a while....apparently on the not so veiled hope that she'd conveniently catch her actual death and stop being  a bother...." 

 

Views change when we get older, but the story has already decided to establish for me that Lyanna wasn't a Unicorns and Roses girl by having her talk about Robert's bastard in the Vale and how she didn't think that being married would stop him schtupping the willing ladies of the world.   Lyanna in Ned's memory is not overburdened by romantic foolishness associated with youth.  

 

 

 

I'm guessing Xaro Xoan Daxos?

 

Yes, that's Ducksauce :-) 

Edited June 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

There's probably a few more. I've remembered another couple already. Not for Shimpy's eyes:

 

• Ros
• Talisa
• The Spice King
• Locke
• Olly
• Olyvar
• Myranda
• Karl the Fookin Legend
• Mossadar (the ex-slave Dany executes)
• Karsi

I only came up with

6. Talisa, Ros, Olly, Olyvar, Myranda, and Karsi. Was Locke not a blend of characters? I definitely wouldn't have remembered the Spice King.

[Protar]

I only came up with

6. Talisa, Ros, Olly, Olyvar, Myranda, and Karsi. Was Locke not a blend of characters? I definitely wouldn't have remembered the Spice King.

 

What do you mean you don't remember

the Spice King!?

He was the best part of

Qarth

. And 

Locke

was a one-to-one replacement of 

Vargo Hoat, in the same way Talisa was of Jeyne.

But then they got their own completely new story. 

 

And yes I designed my spoiler tags to tease Shimpy :P I'm mean.

[Avaleigh]

What do you mean you don't remember

the Spice King!?

He was the best part of

Qarth

. And 

Locke

was a one-to-one replacement of 

Vargo Hoat, in the same way Talisa was of Jeyne.

But then they got their own completely new story. 

 

And yes I designed my spoiler tags to tease Shimpy :P I'm mean.

It's been awhile since I've seen the first three seasons! Save s1e1,s1e9, s2e9, s3e9, I don't think I've seen most of the other episodes since around the time they aired. (Of course during that week they aired I watched them several times lol. ;-) ) It's crazy how much younger everyone looks in the pilot. It makes me want to go racing to the mirror. 

 

I remember

the Spice King now that I've looked him up I just didn't remember that he was called the Spice King. He was pretty funny.

[ambi76]

You may be right, Protar, but I think that would also depend on something else:  Not being focused on Ned in the story because truly, it's pretty hammer and tongs.

Definitely the reason why I was like "Whut?" when I first heard of R+L=J, after having spoiled myself on almost anything else before. Never much cared for the Starks. Was always a Lannister kind of gal and who the fuck cares about Jon Snow's mother/parents? Yeah.

Edited June 29, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

And yes I designed my spoiler tags to tease Shimpy :P I'm mean.

 

And over-estimating the lure of spoiler tags, there Protar ;-)  I managed to pretty successfully avoid spoilers for five full seasons of TV and only got lax when I stopped caring as much.  You're going to have to hand-dip those spoiler tags in the richest dark chocolate, place it inside a spa where a massage therapist will only agree to give me a massage if I look under the tag and have the therapist holding at least a thousand bucks.   Probably more like ten thousand.  

 

I suppose you could stoop to something like threatening my dogs, but you said you were mean....not a monster :-D 

 

No seriously, have at with the spoiler tags, it doesn't bug me at all and I appreciate your consideration in tagging things.   Thank you for doing that. 

[Haleth]

I think we should really limit what we say about future storylines though, and not get too specific.  Box or no box.  

Edited June 29, 2015 by Haleth

[Protar]

And over-estimating the lure of spoiler tags, there Protar ;-)  I managed to pretty successfully avoid spoilers for five full seasons of TV and only got lax when I stopped caring as much.  You're going to have to hand-dip those spoiler tags in the richest dark chocolate, place it inside a spa where a massage therapist will only agree to give me a massage if I look under the tag and have the therapist holding at least a thousand bucks.   Probably more like ten thousand.  

 

I suppose you could stoop to something like threatening my dogs, but you said you were mean....not a monster :-D 

 

No seriously, have at with the spoiler tags, it doesn't bug me at all and I appreciate your consideration in tagging things.   Thank you for doing that. 

 

I've locked your dogs in my spoiler tags. They're quite safe, I put a lot of biscuits in there. But you need to go in there if you want them back.

[Shanna Marie]

ETA2:  also, hi Shanna Marie :-)

Hi! It's fun running into familiar faces on other threads.

 

I think the R+L=J stuff is a lot more subtle if you're just reading the books without any prior knowledge to be honest. Maybe I'm just defending myself for not picking up at first, but then I know a lot of people who didn't.

I'm ashamed to confess that I didn't pick it up, either, in reading the first book after watching the first season. I have an occasional long-distance e-mail friend who'd read the books and was watching the series, and when I mentioned to him that I was reading the books and he found out where I was, he said, "Oh, then so you've probably figured out R+L=J" and I was like "huh?" He sent me links to fan theory pages, and I realized that somehow, something huge had flown right over my head, making sonic booms, without me noticing it at all. I'm not even sure how I missed it. I do recall figuring out pretty early in the book that the identity of Jon's mother would have to be significant, but mostly because I've read a fantasy novel before, and I don't think that in the entire history of fantasy there's ever been a bastard, farmboy, or apprentice who plays a central role in the story who turns out to really be just a bastard, farmboy, or apprentice. If you introduce a bastard early in a series and he's a viewpoint character, his parentage is probably not what you think it is, or at least will be significant. (Yeah, I'm one of those who doesn't believe GRRM is busting tropes so much as he's not telling the story you think he's telling -- If you're reading the whole series as one book, Ned's death isn't that shocking. He dies at approximately the point where Obi-Wan Kenobi dies -- the young heroes losing their mentor and being left on their own. It's only a shock if you look at that first book as being any kind of self-contained story and thought Ned was the hero. Or have never seen anything with Sean Bean in it.)

 

I think one reason I might have missed the clues is that I'd detached myself from Ned. I already knew his fate from watching the series when I read the book, so I knew there was no point in getting invested in him. I think at that point of the book, being with Ned was very unpleasant and frustrating because I knew where it was going and I could see all the mistakes he was making with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, so I imagine I skimmed his chapters. I also don't think I made any connection between the mystery of Jon's origins and whatever went on at the Tower. I guess I was seeing those as two totally different things, and I wasn't expecting to learn about Jon via Ned in King's Landing. I imagine if I re-read it now I'd be smacking my forehead.

[Protar]

In my defence I was 13 so...a lot went over my head.

[nksarmi]

There's a lot of things I'm looking forward to Shimpy reacting to in CoK. The absence of a certain someone especially. 

Oh my word you guys - I don't even know the books well enough to figure out what you are talking about lol.  Sometimes I feel unsullied!

 

Ok, I love that basically in book one stillshimpy has gotten into the essence of things that are still debated to this day. I can only guess that GRRM has been waiting to tell us more about L&R for when he confirms our suspicions about Jon.

 

Oh and I honestly can't remember if I had seen R+L=J before I read the first book or not, so I can't remember if I saw the clues or if I already knew. I'm not really the type to avoid spoilers - I'm more the type to read ahead or read the last page of the book to see if I will like the ending before I invest in the book lol.  But when I do decide that I'd rather not know, I start avoiding all social media.  Well, before I got into this series, I had a couple of friends who had read the books and I think I might have seen speculation on Jon before I knew to avoid it.  So I have NO idea how obvious the clues were (it's like watching the Sixth Sense after knowing the ending trying to figure out when you would have figured it out if you didn't know).

 

So after watching the season finale and seeing speculation fly regarding what comes next (because we are kind of all unsullied now!) - I'm glad to be reminded that the clue were always there.  It makes me believe that GRRM probably will not reverse course and we will see the payoff from those early clues soon!

Edited June 29, 2015 by nksarmi

[Protar]

Oh my word you guys - I don't even know the books well enough to figure out what you are talking about lol.  Sometimes I feel unsullied!

 

Ok, I love that basically in book one stillshimpy has gotten into the essence of things that are still debated to this day. I can only guess that GRRM has been waiting to tell us more about L&R for when he confirms our suspicions about Jon.

 

I was referring to

Talisa

[nksarmi]

Oh right - got it now.

 

Ack!  My spoiler tags weren't working and I had to edit five times to just remove something!!!!!

Edited June 29, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

What a great thread! 

 

Guys, Protar is totally dog-sitting for me! Score! Plus, the replicants that you left behind in their place are a complete match.  Right down to the bunny-chasing and farting.  I'm impressed with your work.  

 

I don't think that in the entire history of fantasy there's ever been a bastard, farmboy, or apprentice who plays a central role in the story who turns out to really be just a bastard, farmboy, or apprentice. If you introduce a bastard early in a series and he's a viewpoint character, his parentage is probably not what you think it is, or at least will be significant.

 

Right?  "I'm a bastard!  I have no name!  I have suffered greatly from the insignificance of not having any name of note.  Woe, woe, I say.  I beat my breast and decry my insignificant parentage!"  Isn't exactly fresh material, but here's the thing:  Everyone seems to think Jon's coming back, alive and kicking and yeah...I do know that must happen in a book because Mya told me that was where she threw the book across a room.  

 

So maybe that's the trope buster.   But he is taking known and expected plot elements and doing fairly odd things with them.  However, Ned has thought about "He could hear Lyanna's voice, "Promise me, Ned..." about a half a dozen times and I'm halfway through the book.   Like I said, it's not subtle, but is going on with about a jillion other things also and I can see how it might get lost in the shuffle for anyone not saying, "Oh I like him, I'll focus on him."   You know, I kind of breeze through Tyrion's chapters without absorbing some of the details.  When you guys were talking about The Three Stooges and how they appeared in that chapter, to this moment, I don't know who they are.  

 

But I don't think Tyrion is necessarily the character who would have really caused any particular focus for me.  He kind of hasn't onscreen either.  I think Peter Dinklage is doing admirable work, but Tyrion just isn't my favorite character as of yet.  We'll see.   So for all I know there are honking clues to big assed deals in Tyrion's chapters and I'm not picking up on them....because my attention tends to wander more easily in those chapters.   The key to everything could be in Tyrion's chapters, but it's not like I'll know unless I do a reread.   I'm assuming exactly what happened to other people with Ned's "Jesus, there he is thinking about Lyanna again....booorrrriiinggg. Skimming.  Get back to a character I like.  Not Cat."  

[mrspidey]

 

Right?  "I'm a bastard!  I have no name!  I have suffered greatly from the insignificance of not having any name of note.  Woe, woe, I say.  I beat my breast and decry my insignificant parentage!"  Isn't exactly fresh material, but here's the thing:  Everyone seems to think Jon's coming back, alive and kicking and yeah...I do know that must happen in a book because Mya told me that was where she threw the book across a room.  

 

So maybe that's the trope buster.   

That's my biggest fear, basically. That Martin played with this trope for decades, putting hints and teases into every book only to then completely break this trope by killing Jon off for good.

I don't think I'd ever forgive him if he does that. There's a reason tropes exist. They work! You shouldn't break them just for the sake of breaking them.

[Haleth]

When you guys were talking about The Three Stooges and how they appeared in that chapter, to this moment, I don't know who they are.

 

Don't feel bad.  I don't know who the poster was referring to either.

[Avaleigh]

What a great thread! 

 

Guys, Protar is totally dog-sitting for me! Score! Plus, the replicants that you left behind in their place are a complete match.  Right down to the bunny-chasing and farting.  I'm impressed with your work.  

 

 

 

 

Right?  "I'm a bastard!  I have no name!  I have suffered greatly from the insignificance of not having any name of note.  Woe, woe, I say.  I beat my breast and decry my insignificant parentage!"  Isn't exactly fresh material, but here's the thing:  Everyone seems to think Jon's coming back, alive and kicking and yeah...I do know that must happen in a book because Mya told me that was where she threw the book across a room.  

 

So maybe that's the trope buster.   But he is taking known and expected plot elements and doing fairly odd things with them.  However, Ned has thought about "He could hear Lyanna's voice, "Promise me, Ned..." about a half a dozen times and I'm halfway through the book.   Like I said, it's not subtle, but is going on with about a jillion other things also and I can see how it might get lost in the shuffle for anyone not saying, "Oh I like him, I'll focus on him."   You know, I kind of breeze through Tyrion's chapters without absorbing some of the details.  When you guys were talking about The Three Stooges and how they appeared in that chapter, to this moment, I don't know who they are.

 

But I don't think Tyrion is necessarily the character who would have really caused any particular focus for me.  He kind of hasn't onscreen either.  I think Peter Dinklage is doing admirable work, but Tyrion just isn't my favorite character as of yet.  We'll see.   So for all I know there are honking clues to big assed deals in Tyrion's chapters and I'm not picking up on them....because my attention tends to wander more easily in those chapters.   The key to everything could be in Tyrion's chapters, but it's not like I'll know unless I do a reread.   I'm assuming exactly what happened to other people with Ned's "Jesus, there he is thinking about Lyanna again....booorrrriiinggg. Skimming.  Get back to a character I like.  Not Cat."  

I've read who they are before, I can't remember, and I forgot to look for who they might be while I was doing my current (first time) reread. I know I can look up who it is I'm just pointing out that it's easy to miss this sort of thing.  

 

I appreciate the humor that comes in Tyrion's chapters. In this book the moments that stand out to me so far include--

 

Tyrion thinking to himself that he wants to yell "Casterly Rock!" only to hesitate and realize that calling attention to himself like that probably wouldn't be the smartest thing. The "I'm willing if she is" line about Catelyn. The way he "challenges" Thorne to a duel while he's at the Wall and practically has Mormont laughing until he has wine coming out of his nostrils. The way he teases Mariliion. 

[Delta1212]

What a great thread!

Guys, Protar is totally dog-sitting for me! Score! Plus, the replicants that you left behind in their place are a complete match. Right down to the bunny-chasing and farting. I'm impressed with your work.

Right? "I'm a bastard! I have no name! I have suffered greatly from the insignificance of not having any name of note. Woe, woe, I say. I beat my breast and decry my insignificant parentage!" Isn't exactly fresh material, but here's the thing: Everyone seems to think Jon's coming back, alive and kicking and yeah...I do know that must happen in a book because Mya told me that was where she threw the book across a room.

So maybe that's the trope buster. But he is taking known and expected plot elements and doing fairly odd things with them. However, Ned has thought about "He could hear Lyanna's voice, "Promise me, Ned..." about a half a dozen times and I'm halfway through the book. Like I said, it's not subtle, but is going on with about a jillion other things also and I can see how it might get lost in the shuffle for anyone not saying, "Oh I like him, I'll focus on him." You know, I kind of breeze through Tyrion's chapters without absorbing some of the details. When you guys were talking about The Three Stooges and how they appeared in that chapter, to this moment, I don't know who they are.

But I don't think Tyrion is necessarily the character who would have really caused any particular focus for me. He kind of hasn't onscreen either. I think Peter Dinklage is doing admirable work, but Tyrion just isn't my favorite character as of yet. We'll see. So for all I know there are honking clues to big assed deals in Tyrion's chapters and I'm not picking up on them....because my attention tends to wander more easily in those chapters. The key to everything could be in Tyrion's chapters, but it's not like I'll know unless I do a reread. I'm assuming exactly what happened to other people with Ned's "Jesus, there he is thinking about Lyanna again....booorrrriiinggg. Skimming. Get back to a character I like. Not Cat."

A little of that and a little "Huh, there he is talking about his promise to Lyanna again. I wonder when we'll find out what that's about."

Keeping in mind that we (who read the books first, anyway) didn't know Ned was going to get his head lopped off at the end of the first book, and by the time you're three books past the point where Ned was even a character, you forget what his internal monologues were about and aren't waiting for them to pay off anymore because more important stuff is going on.

There's one other big thing that a lot of people missed completely on their first read through because it's all subtle hints rather than being explicitly explained. I found out about it half-way through reading book three and suddenly there were glaring clues everywhere and it seems like relevant characters never showed up on the page without practically shouting it, but I didn't pick up on it before it was pointed out to me, because every time I got to a new reference to it, I'd forgotten about the last one so I wasn't putting the pieces together until the extra knowledge made them stand out as important.

Incidentally, this was something that was never made secret on the show, so you already know the information. I'm still not going to tell you what I'm talking about yet, though.

[Mya Stone]

What a great thread! 

 

Guys, Protar is totally dog-sitting for me! Score! Plus, the replicants that you left behind in their place are a complete match.  Right down to the bunny-chasing and farting.  I'm impressed with your work.  

 

 

Right?  "I'm a bastard!  I have no name!  I have suffered greatly from the insignificance of not having any name of note.  Woe, woe, I say.  I beat my breast and decry my insignificant parentage!"  Isn't exactly fresh material, but here's the thing:  Everyone seems to think Jon's coming back, alive and kicking and yeah...I do know that must happen in a book because Mya told me that was where she threw the book across a room.  

 

So maybe that's the trope buster.   But he is taking known and expected plot elements and doing fairly odd things with them.  However, Ned has thought about "He could hear Lyanna's voice, "Promise me, Ned..." about a half a dozen times and I'm halfway through the book.   Like I said, it's not subtle, but is going on with about a jillion other things also and I can see how it might get lost in the shuffle for anyone not saying, "Oh I like him, I'll focus on him."   You know, I kind of breeze through Tyrion's chapters without absorbing some of the details.  When you guys were talking about The Three Stooges and how they appeared in that chapter, to this moment, I don't know who they are.  

 

But I don't think Tyrion is necessarily the character who would have really caused any particular focus for me.  He kind of hasn't onscreen either.  I think Peter Dinklage is doing admirable work, but Tyrion just isn't my favorite character as of yet.  We'll see.   So for all I know there are honking clues to big assed deals in Tyrion's chapters and I'm not picking up on them....because my attention tends to wander more easily in those chapters.   The key to everything could be in Tyrion's chapters, but it's not like I'll know unless I do a reread.   I'm assuming exactly what happened to other people with Ned's "Jesus, there he is thinking about Lyanna again....booorrrriiinggg. Skimming.  Get back to a character I like.  Not Cat."

I threw my book at the Red Wedding, darling. And called my friend and bitched him out at 1AM. He assured me to keep reading, things would get better. And then I scurried across my bedroom, snatched the book back up, and finished the rest of the book...and had to wait 5 years for the next one. :p

[Haleth]

And have things gotten better? Lol

[Mya Stone]

And have things gotten better? Lol

I have since cut off all contact with this kid, as I value honesty in my friendships. :p

[stillshimpy]

Yikes.  I was about to scroll back through our chat to pull the quote, because I could swear that you said that The Red Wedding was THE FIRST time you threw the book across the room...but then I saw the length of that chat and surrendered.   Holy moly.  I think Mya might occasionally use me as an Ambien in Facebook chat.  "I can't sleep.  Oh good, shimpy's online!  She'll pile words on me until such time as I doze off."  

 

I will totally take your word for it :-D

[Mya Stone]

Yikes.  I was about to scroll back through our chat to pull the quote, because I could swear that you said that The Red Wedding was THE FIRST time you threw the book across the room...but then I saw the length of that chat and surrendered.   Holy moly.  I think Mya might occasionally use me as an Ambien in Facebook chat.  "I can't sleep.  Oh good, shimpy's online!  She'll pile words on me until such time as I doze off."  

 

I will totally take your word for it :-D

Hahahaha...The only reason I know I didn't throw my book for Jon is because I read it on my Kindle. ;)

And no way! I love chatting with you! That reminds me I need to read our last message. Oops!

[magdalene]

When I first read the first book, like what... 10 years ago, I found Ned so boring and I took a dislike to Cat, mainly because she was being mean to Tyrion who I had latched on to because he is a witty, bad ass snarker, a character type I like in my reading. But then when Ned got his head chopped off I felt kind of guilty for having been bored by Ned. But mainly I thought it was cool that GRRM set me up to think of Ned Stark as a big boring hero only to chop-chop. I didn't get truly excited about the books until a certain chapter in book 2 when Martin did something to subvert my expectations again, in a most excellent manner.

[Lady S.]

Don't feel bad.  I don't know who the poster was referring to either.

No one important, but there are three men-at-arms named Lharys, Mohor, and Kurleket. I only know this shit from lurking on w.org, where's a pinned thread keeping track of all of Martin's weird little references.

[Haleth]

I had no idea.  That is hilarious.

[Delta1212]

Lharys is described as having tufts of wild red hair sticking out from under his helmet and Kurleket is bald and pig-faced. I missed if there was a description of Mohor.

[unworried well]

There was something about his cap, I think.

 

ETA: Found it:

"Mohor stood over them, leaning on his spear and wearing a rounded iron cap that made him look as if he had a bowl on his head."

Edited June 30, 2015 by unworried well

[stillshimpy]

That's marvelous, right down to the Larry, Mo and Curly of it all, but I guess I misunderstood something.  I did spot Mohor as being the "Oh, he sounds like one of the three Stooges" and it had been pointed out that they first appear in that chapter.  Mohor got his face caved in though, didn't he? Does that mean that Martin seeds other Three Stooges with different character names?  Because that, would be awesome.  

 

Right in the middle of some dire scene, with tremendous peril and a pitched battle, he could have Onmo , Figlar , and Barcurleigh.   I'm sure he doesn't, but the thought is amusing me to no end.  Right in the middle of this story:  "Loral tried to heft his broadsword, but the weigh of it proved to much for his slight frame, finally Hardee made his way towards him, trying to provide cover with his own, massive frame.  Both died and were skinned, but not in that order, because this story.   

 

Next up Ser Churley Kaplaign attempts to take the Dreadfort in the name of Lil'Trampton  whose house motto is Smile, Even though Your Heart is Breaking.  

Edited June 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

That's marvelous, right down to the Larry, Mo and Curly of it all, but I guess I misunderstood something. I did spot Mohor as being the "Oh, he sounds like one of the three Stooges" and it had been pointed out that they first appear in that chapter. Mohor got his face caved in though, didn't he? Does that mean that Martin seeds other Three Stooges with different character names? Because that, would be awesome.

Right in the middle of some dire scene, with tremendous peril and a pitched battle, he could have Onmo , Figlar , and Barcurleigh. I'm sure he doesn't, but the thought is amusing me to no end. Right in the middle of this story: "Loral tried to heft his broadsword, but the weigh of it proved to much for his slight frame, finally Hardee made his way towards him, trying to provide cover with his own, massive frame. Both died and were skinned, but not in that order, because this story.

Next up Ser Churley Kaplaign attempts to take the Dreadfort in the name of Lil'Trampton whose house motto is Smile, Even though Your Heart is Breaking.

Well, off the top of my head, you know how there have been two named giants on the TV show, Mag the Mighty and Wun Wun?

Wun Wun is the jersey number of former Giants quarterback Phil Simms.

GRRM is a bit of a football nerd and the Giants are his team.

[Shanna Marie]

That's my biggest fear, basically. That Martin played with this trope for decades, putting hints and teases into every book only to then completely break this trope by killing Jon off for good.

I don't think I'd ever forgive him if he does that. There's a reason tropes exist. They work! You shouldn't break them just for the sake of breaking them.

Yeah, to get away with breaking a trope, you pretty much have to come up with something that's even more satisfying than the trope (and if you pull it off, it's likely to become a new trope). The "humble nobody turns out to be the destined, chosen one of magical specialness" trope is very satisfying because it's a "gotcha!" on the characters (and generally the characters you dislike). Who hasn't had the "someday you'll regret this" hope when someone bullies or belittles you? You fantasize about turning out to be Somebody and having them grovel before you (or at least I do). What teenaged fantasy nerd hasn't sat in a boring class and imagined the herald from some distant realm arriving to announce that you're the long-lost prince/princess (just me?)? A possible trope-buster for this might be if Jon's parentage actually has nothing to do with the outcome, that he's the destined, chosen one with magical specialness not because of who his parents were but because he's the guy who looked past all the petty power games in order to save the world from the hordes of ice zombies while everyone else was focused on selfish pursuits and old rivalries, and he gets the power and whatever special magical goodies there are because he passed some cosmic test, with his upbringing as a bastard being part of what molded him into the man he becomes. And then to keep it from looking too much like a bait and switch with all the teasing about his identity, have an epilogue with the one guy still alive who knows the truth looking upon this with satisfaction but realizing that it no longer matters, so he decides not to tell anyone.

 

But building up all the mystery of his identity and going through all the coming of age stuff only to wipe him out about 2/3 (maybe?) through the series is a "gotcha" on the audience, not a trope-buster. Depending on whether the next book or the next season comes first, I imagine it might even impact sales of the book. If the show goes with "goner," will people flip through the book in stores to see what happens before making the decision to buy? Would that be the death that makes readers figure there's not much point in reading the rest? There is a point of diminishing returns in killing characters. The first few put you on notice that no one is safe and make things more tense, but after that you reach the point where you just don't let yourself care anymore.

 

Looking back, I might have guessed Ned's death was coming even if I hadn't seen all the dead Ned memes while I didn't know or care who Ned was because of the bit where he promises to tell Jon about his mother later. I've seen enough war movies to know that basically marked him for death. Any potentially useful bit of information that you decide to tell someone later means you're toast. If Jon's parentage doesn't actually matter because he's dead before it makes a difference, then why the mystery? Why make it a Thing instead of just "I was lonely one night at an inn, then came back nine months later and there you were, and at least something good came out of that ugly war"?

[Lady S.]

^ICAM, Shanna Marie, most of the time Martin is deconstructing tropes, not subverting them, and others he plays totally straight. The real trick of Ned's death was giving him the most chapters and setting him up as the protagonist, but if the other Starks are the ones actually advancing the rest of the plot, then the death of the patriarch makes perfect sense.

[ulkis]

I think the R+L=J stuff is a lot more subtle if you're just reading the books without any prior knowledge to be honest. Maybe I'm just defending myself for not picking up at first, but then I know a lot of people who didn't.

 

I think the Lyanna part is more evident than the Rhaegar part, but maybe I'm biased just because I picked up on Lyanna fairly quickly. :) I forget if I actually put together the Rhaegar part or I read it online. I remember thinking the dad was Robert before I dismissed it fairly quickly. But I think it was the line where Tyrion thinks "whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself inside her son" where I was like well that probably means he actually looks just like the mom. And since the only other girl Stark around to have been Jon's mom was Lyanna, that's when I thought.

 

but I agree it's not THAT obvious, not if you're not looking for it, and I was, since I was like "oh his dad's probably not Ned." If you do go into it thinking his dad is Ned, then some of the clues don't seem like a big deal.

Edited July 2, 2015 by ulkis

[stillshimpy]

Well, Ned's gone and been Ned, so soon he will be dead.  On the one hand, I respect that he wanted to make sure that Robert would not have killed  children -- who no matter how awful Joffrey truly is -- aren't to blame for their parentage.  I mean, it's hard to fault a man for not wanting innocent people to die.   Still, that was as stupid a move in the book as it was in the series.  

 

Since book Ned seems so much brighter than series Ned, it's actually a bit baffling.  That was such simple math to do, it's actually one of the clunkier plot points in the book.  Ned is not so incredibly honorable that he can't conceive of the Lannisters simply killing him.  Is that actually what he hopes will happen?  Cersei admits that Bran saw her with Jaime and he bloody well knows they tried to kill Bran by shoving him out of a window.  Does he subconsciously just want them to get it over with, because he knows how treacherous the Lannisters are.  He knows Tywin had the Targaryen children murdered.  He knows Jaime Lannister killed the king, despite being in the Kingsguard.  

 

He knows most of his best guards are gone.  He even thinks about it before heading to the godswood and making it as private as humanly possible.  

 

I now finally understand why the series made poor Ned seem so much dimmer than he actually was, because that thing was entirely daft.  Even if he felt he had zero choice in the matter because of what honor dictated, he had to know:  All that's going to happen from this is that they will kill me.  Just as they killed Jon Arryn.  So pretty much the only way to make that even close to plausible as a plot point was to make Ned rather stupid in the series, because I have to say, it doesn't even begin to make sense otherwise. 

 

Particularly not sending his children ahead in some clandestine manner.  

 

However, in the "Oh, well that's good, something finally makes some damned sense:  Why the plot to kill Dany involved a wine merchant and why they thought that would work.  The Dothraki don't drink wine.   Don't normally have it in their city either.  FINALLY that makes sense.  

 

I had to laugh a little at how incredibly awful Sansa is in the chapter where her dress is ruined.  Quite a while back I had read an article talking about the mistakes men make when writing women.  Among the authors that were named as being particularly prone to writing cliches and writing women through what is unmistakably a male gaze was George R. R. Martin.  He had a lot of exalted company, by the way.  The article wasn't calling him a talentless hack, just pointing out a variety of things men tend to do when creating female characters that are at least a little bit laughable. 

 

The example use for Martin was a sentence involving Dany walking across a field and how she could feel her small breasts moving beneath her woven grass vest...and the author of the piece went on to say that even when trying to write a strong woman, becoming more empowered, Martin has her thinking about her own breasts and pointing out that that is the perfect example of a man attempting to write a strong woman in the name of feminism, but falling prey to being unable to shake his male gaze. 

 

Guess what, male writers of the world?  Unless we're trying on bras or have a mosquito bite or are nursing, women don't actually spend a whole bunch of time wondering what our breasts are up to, as if they are independent creatures.  Sure, maybe when running and wanting a sports bra with better support, but even then the thoughts tend to run more towards, "Man, I need a new bra..."  or when getting dressed we might think, "Oh shit, that's a lot more low-cut than I thought it was at the store..." or when deciding what bra to wear with what dress, or if you can get away without one....

 

Point being, women spend as much time thinking about what their breasts are up as we do thinking about our heels, eblows, left nostrils (right nostrils) etc. etc. etc.  name any other boring body part you care to name.  We're not as fascinated by "Ohhhhh....boobies."  

 

And I never brought up that article anywhere because it literally only had a few sentences, the only spoiler contained with in is that "Guys!  Dany has small breasts! That move! When she does! Amazebals!"  and it was actually just part of an article about "Guys, if you can't do any better than this, at least talk to a woman occasionally and ask..."  

 

But that so pales in comparison to Sansa's shit-fit over her ruined dress and how she began to sob when she saw the orange had seeped through to her undergarments.  

 

Martin apparently thought:  "What If I tried to make the girliest gir, who ever girled, and made her as unlikable as possible with that girly girling?  I would call that girl Sansa and I absolutely think of all things stereotypically girly are vapid, vain and silly."  

 

I guess I should just be impressed that he didn't have her giving color commentary for her breasts at the time.  Good. Fucking. Lord.  I think I'll just continue to decline the very broad, and rather poorly written, invitation to dislike Sansa based on being the girliest girl to ever girl.  She's not a character at present, she's just a collection of silly things George Martin has decided a real developing young woman might feel and think.  "Clothes! Pretty! Dirt, icky!  Sister, sucky!"  and man, that's all the depth she gets in this book.  

 

She's a minor character in this book and it certainly isn't fatal.  I'm also trying to keep in mind how long ago he likely wrote this stuff, but that shit is bowling-with-cliches level of insulting.  She's not a person.  She's a rejected sticky note from the story board of a Sex and the City episode that never happened in which Carrie meets her It's a Wonderful Life Version of herself at 11 and discovers she's only capable of having three thoughts.   

 

If I sound angry, I'm actually not.  I'm laughing my ass off because it reads like satire.  It's got to be intended to be satire.  I mean, it just has to.  She tries to be brave until she realizes the orange stain has penetrated through to her undergarments?  BWHAHAHAHAHA.  Holy shit.  Yeah, at some point if Sansa ever develops into an actual character, maybe I'll form an opinion on her.  Until then, she's Carrie's Sticky Note.  

 

That actually cheered me up immensely.  

 

Now, back to the "What the fuck is wrong with Ned?"  musings.   What he's doing right now, although it will lead to sad things and certainly move the plot forward feels sort of odd, more than anything.  When I ask myself "How could he not know that.....I mean, he believes they tried to murder a nine-year-old....in the course of the conversation with Cersei she offers to screw him (hey show, thanks for leaving that part out...because that's also 'uhhhh....were you new to writing women....because they sort of lack many layers...' ) ...." 

 

It really isn't so much that I dislike the plot point as most of Ned has made sense thus far.  I'm going to have to put this all down to judgment clouded by drugs to buy it.  

 

Now I'll just be over here howling with laughter for a while longer.  No wonder people hated Sansa.  She's a cartoon.  

Edited July 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

She tries to be brave until she realizes the orange stain has penetrated through to her undergarments? BWHAHAHAHAHA. Holy shit. Yeah, at some point if Sansa ever develops into an actual character, maybe I'll form an opinion on her. Until then, she's Carrie's Sticky Note.

The bit in bold sounds like something straight out of a V.C. Andrews novel.

I agree with your thoughts on Ned's decision.

For me too I've always held the unpopular opinion that Ned wasn't really doing Cersei that much of a favor and that if he really cared about whether or not her children lived that he wouldn't have said anything. Either tell and be loyal to Robert or don't tell and go back to the North or stay and see if he has any chance of being a positive influence on Joffrey. I certainly think that Ned would have tried to work with Joffrey if he'd been a dark haired, green eyed little asshole as opposed to a blonde one.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Haleth]

My daughter was always overly emotional and prone to drama so I could completely see her having a meltdown over juice spilled on a dress. I still think, "oh God, what now?" whenever the phone rings. But I completely agree about Martin's poor writing for women in general, especially regarding how women think about their bodies and sex.

As for Ned, his biggest mistake (aside from not sending the girls away as soon as Cat showed up with the knife) was thinking everyone else had enough honor to take his side when he rejected Joff. He was counting on Renly and the rest of the small council to back him. Little did he know what a nest of vipers they were. It was really shortsighted, to understate it.

I hope it's ok to mention this. In the last Sansa chapter near the end of the book she has some interesting thoughts about Janos Slynt.

[Protar]

I remember that article. I'm not a boob-owner but I do recall a few defences from women who pointed out that often they are conscious of the fact that their boobs move about. Which seems logical to me, so it's not so egregious. Which isn't to say that Martin doesn't occasionally succumb to the male gaze, he does. I mean I never thought I'd be able to tell anyone about the nipple preferences of a 64 year old man, but here we are. But given how the female characters are written otherwise (i.e very well), I can forgive him that. 

 

Sansa in the first book is rather laughable and insufferable. I think she's deliberately designed that way, though it is arguable whether deliberately designing her that way excuses it or makes it worse. But certainly Arya vs. Sansa is very one sided in AGoT. Though in later books Sansa is one of my favourite characters and I like her a lot more than Arya.

[magdalene]

I never disliked Sansa, not even in the first book. I thought she is  just a very immature girl child with shallow concerns and that Martin has an easier time relating to her tomboy sister. And now of course with the benefit of knowing where Martin took the character - he did the thing with her that he does with all his important characters, he put her through hell and humbled her to show us and her what she is made of.  He does this over and over again with his POV characters. And the ones that live through the hell and come out on the other side of it maybe get to be part of the end game. I think Sansa is an end game character. 

[stillshimpy]

My daughter was always overly emotional and prone to drama so I could completely see her having a meltdown over juice spilled on a dress. I still think, "oh God, what now?" whenever the phone rings. But I completely agree about Martin's poor writing for women in general, especially regarding how women think about their bodies and sex.

 

I'm pretty sure that's actually the sort of thing that makes it a cliche and a stereotype though, Haleth.   This is Sansa not just on day when an orange has been pitched at her and she just can't even begin to cope with it.  This is Sansa after the murder of men she's known her whole life, which she even acknowledges in the paragraphs before the Undergarment sobbing. 

 

Also on the "a dude totally wrote that" part of the "Dany could feel her small breasts moving..."  Sorry, folks that don't possess them, but that's not quite how it works.  I'm sure women in comments sections have said, "Oh yeah, sure I was aware that I had breasts at that moment because of gravity, friction, movement.....but you know what women don't note?  Their size.  If they are your very own breasts, a) something needs to be happening with them that is worth commenting upon and b) the size doesn't enter into that.  

Unless you're noting that the slightly bigger one was really bugging the heck out of you, because a lot of women have slightly asymmetrical breasts.  But the point is, unless something unusual is going on with your breasts?  Yeah.  You don't note them moving any more than you note your collar bone moving, or your chin, or your thighs.  Or any of the other parts that don't mean SEX to dudes reading it.   Sure, it's quite possible to have a thought about your breasts, but usually something other than WOO DOGGIES, I HAVE 'EM is the reason.  "Daenarys moved through the tall grass, feeling the sun on her face, the moist eårth beneath her feet...and the mothfucka....a blade poke her in the left breast and she thought of the pain...."  

Otherwise, again, no more likely to be a thought than your shinbone , or big toe.  Unless it is being written by a dude and then it has second billing. Third if they are attempting to be evolved, but are still a dude and think, "The breast action must figure in there somewhere, right?  I mean, those things are fucking fascinating."  

 

It's the same deal with Sansa's boohoo fest over her dress (only that is much worse....she's not cataloging her lady parts for the guys....she just unable to quit thinking about her dress and its relative importance to everything else).   Although, he does try and do marginally better when he has Sansa awake from a dream about Lady.   

 

Women have inner lives that don't involve "I wonder what I'll wear today" and "Yes, it's a lovely day, but what of my breasts?  Let us check in with them, shall we?" 

 

Again though, I'm not slamming Martin there.  He's just showing what he knows and doesn't know. Just as women do when they try to write a man's inner thought process and either just throw in a lot more profanity than would be even close to normal as a means of compensating for "Yeah, I have essentially no clue what men think about...so I present the words fuck, bitch and tits, hoping that I can compensate...also...cars. Maybe guns or punching things."  

 

I'm trying to keep in mind too that these are early days in what will be a successful book series and that there is room for improvement.  Also that it's been kind of a long damned time since I was an eleven year old girl and my attempts might be a little smirk worthy too.  

 

That whole thing with Cersei was just weird though.   Ned touching her face and asking if Robert had ever hit her before.    

You know, even someone with a tremendously honorable spirit might be forgiven for giving that whole thing a goddamn pass.  He thinks -- not inaccurately, mind you -- that she was behind trying to kill his son.  

 

Pulllleeeeaaaazzzzze on the "Ned, he is soooo honorable he cared that her brute of a husband had struck her."  Yes, of course, in theory......and she's still part of the duo who forever crippled his son and he knows it.  There's room between spiking a football in glee and offering to blacken the other eye 'cause she had it coming, and tenderly expressing his concern for her poor, marred lovely face. 

 

I actually like Martin's writing a lot, but these are not some of his stronger passages or evidence of his craft.  

Edited July 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Hecate7]

But that so pales in comparison to Sansa's shit-fit over her ruined dress and how she began to sob when she saw the orange had seeped through to her undergarments.  

 

Martin apparently thought:  "What If I tried to make the girliest gir, who ever girled, and made her as unlikable as possible with that girly girling?  I would call that girl Sansa and I absolutely think of all things stereotypically girly are vapid, vain and silly."  

 

I guess I should just be impressed that he didn't have her giving color commentary for her breasts at the time.  Good. Fucking. Lord.  I think I'll just continue to decline the very broad, and rather poorly written, invitation to dislike Sansa based on being the girliest girl to ever girl.  She's not a character at present, she's just a collection of silly things George Martin has decided a real developing young woman might feel and think.  "Clothes! Pretty! Dirt, icky!  Sister, sucky!"  and man, that's all the depth she gets in this book.

 

I guess if you buy your clothes at the store, and you own a washing machine, and you have plenty of other clothes to put on, and you can just go change, crying about it is silly. Especially if you have stain remover and things.

 

But how about if you made it yourself, as we in fact know Sansa did, without a sewing machine btw, which took you WEEKS. Nobody in the world owns a washing machine. Nobody. The servants make mean faces and sneer at you when you get your clothes dirty because it's a lot of work for them...so there's THAT to look forward to.

 

You get compliments on your sewing, your hair, and.....yeah, that's it, your sewing and your hair. And how pretty you look in a dress. People are going to judge you mainly for how you look in this dress today. You've outgrown most of your others, which is why your Mother let you get the fabric to make this one. You hope you don't outgrow it too soon--you worked hard on it and you love it.

 

Naturally Arya ruins it because she's the kind of kid who deliberately spills ink on other kids' art projects. She does this kind of thing to you every damn day. Every time you think you look nice or someone compliments you, an Arya bomb is on its damn way, and nobody ever says a thing about it because it's so funny. You'd be a bad person if you hit her or retaliated, because you're older than she is, so you have to let her get away with it.

 

Gee, I wonder why Sansa thinks she has to take shit from everyone? It's so mysterious....

 

Good point about the breasts, though. You never have a male pov where he's thinking about any of his parts moving under his clothes. He just goes where he's going, occasionally with blonde hair or strong muscled legs, but he's never thinking about his balls swaying as he walks.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Hecate7

[ebevan91]

I'm pretty sure that's actually the sort of thing that makes it a cliche and a stereotype though, Haleth.   This is Sansa not just on day when an orange has been pitched at her and she just can't even begin to cope with it.  This is Sansa after the murder of men she's known her whole life, which she even acknowledges in the paragraphs before the Undergarment sobbing. 

 

Also on the "a dude totally wrote that" part of the "Dany could feel her small breasts moving..."  Sorry, folks that don't possess them, but that's not quite how it works.  I'm sure women in comments sections have said, "Oh yeah, sure I was aware that I had breasts at that moment because of gravity, friction, movement.....but you know what women don't note?  Their size.  If they are your very own breasts, a) something needs to be happening with them that is worth commenting upon and b) the size doesn't enter into that.  

Unless you're noting that the slightly bigger one was really bugging the heck out of you, because a lot of women have slightly asymmetrical breasts.  But the point is, unless something unusual is going on with your breasts?  Yeah.  You don't note them moving any more than you note your collar bone moving, or your chin, or your thighs.  Or any of the other parts that don't mean SEX to dudes reading it.   Sure, it's quite possible to have a thought about your breasts, but usually something other than WOO DOGGIES, I HAVE 'EM is the reason.  "Daenarys moved through the tall grass, feeling the sun on her face, the moist eårth beneath her feet...and the mothfucka....a blade poke her in the left breast and she thought of the pain...."  

Otherwise, again, no more likely to be a thought than your shinbone , or big toe.  Unless it is being written by a dude and then it has second billing. Third if they are attempting to be evolved, but are still a dude and think, "The breast action must figure in there somewhere, right?  I mean, those things are fucking fascinating."  

 

It's the same deal with Sansa's boohoo fest over her dress (only that is much worse....she's not cataloging her lady parts for the guys....she just unable to quit thinking about her dress and its relative importance to everything else).   Although, he does try and do marginally better when he has Sansa awake from a dream about Lady.   

 

Women have inner lives that don't involve "I wonder what I'll wear today" and "Yes, it's a lovely day, but what of my breasts?  Let us check in with them, shall we?" 

 

Again though, I'm not slamming Martin there.  He's just showing what he knows and doesn't know. Just as women do when they try to write a man's inner thought process and either just throw in a lot more profanity than would be even close to normal as a means of compensating for "Yeah, I have essentially no clue what men think about...so I present the words fuck, bitch and tits, hoping that I can compensate...also...cars. Maybe guns or punching things."  

 

I'm trying to keep in mind too that these are early days in what will be a successful book series and that there is room for improvement.  Also that it's been kind of a long damned time since I was an eleven year old girl and my attempts might be a little smirk worthy too.  

 

That whole thing with Cersei was just weird though.   Ned touching her face and asking if Robert had ever hit her before.    

You know, even someone with a tremendously honorable spirit might be forgiven for giving that whole thing a goddamn pass.  He thinks -- not inaccurately, mind you -- that she was behind trying to kill his son.  

 

Pulllleeeeaaaazzzzze on the "Ned, he is soooo honorable he cared that her brute of a husband had struck her."  Yes, of course, in theory......and she's still part of the duo who forever crippled his son and he knows it.  There's room between spiking a football in glee and offering to blacken the other eye 'cause she had it coming, and tenderly expressing his concern for her poor, marred lovely face. 

 

I actually like Martin's writing a lot, but these are not some of his stronger passages or evidence of his craft.  

He's not really known for his writing style. I never really found anything special about it. It's his characterization, world building, and food porn that people like :D

[Shanna Marie]

Martin apparently thought:  "What If I tried to make the girliest gir, who ever girled, and made her as unlikable as possible with that girly girling?  I would call that girl Sansa and I absolutely think of all things stereotypically girly are vapid, vain and silly."

In fairness to George, unfortunately that approach is endemic to fiction as a whole, including middle-grade and young-adult fiction written by women for an audience of girls. Way too often the girl who at all embodies the stereotypical "girl" stuff, whose skills are sewing, dancing, and getting along with people, is depicted as silly, vapid, vain, and useless. If she's not the villain, she's probably at least an antagonist to the protagonist girl. The "cool" girls are the ones that act more like stereotypical boys, who don't care about clothes or dirt, who hate girl stuff like cooking and sewing, and who are into fighting, swords, weapons, etc. That Sansa vs. Arya divide isn't limited to this series.

 

As I'm fond of saying, yeah, the girl who freaks out because her dress got dirty would be a pain on a quest, but a girl who knows how to cook and sew might come in just as handy as the one who knows how to use a sword, and some tact and diplomacy can save a lot of lives. Now if only more authors would realize that you don't have to be one or the other. You can know how to use both kinds of "needles." Sewing doesn't preclude swordplay. Tact might come in pretty handy for an assassin.

 

You never have a male pov where he's thinking about any of his parts moving under his clothes. He just goes where he's going, occasionally with blonde hair or strong muscled legs, but he's never thinking about his balls swaying as he walks.

Wow, you know, I've read a ton of male-written fiction aimed at male audiences, and I don't think I've ever read this kind of thing from a male viewpoint character, and until now it hadn't occurred to me that it was missing, but I have read a zillion and a half books written by men in which female viewpoint characters think about their breasts (male viewpoint characters also think about female characters' breasts). It's just so pervasive that I never even considered the divide.

[Avaleigh]

I don't even think this is necessarily just a thing with male writers. 

 

Last summer a poster from PTV turned me on to this blog where this woman was doing this hysterical recap that pokes fun at the Flowers in the Attic novels. One of the many running jokes in the blog were about the way Andrews would obsessively write about a woman's breasts in a way that I can see is very similar to GRRM. Andrews would actually take it a step further and a woman's breasts would be an indicator her character type. e.g. a character's breast are described as being small and hard so we know this character is going to be a hard, small minded bitch, that sort of thing. 

 

He's not really known for his writing style. I never really found anything special about it. It's his characterization, world building, and food porn that people like :D

He's hit and miss for me. I cringe during his sex scenes but then reading something like Catelyn making the ascent to the Eyrie I feel like he knows what he's doing. Some of the writing for Jaime I've adored. Davos too. The Blackwater--I thought that was terrific stuff.

 

I agree though that for me it's mainly about the characters that he's created. 

[Lady S.]

I never disliked Sansa, not even in the first book. I thought she is  just a very immature girl child with shallow concerns and that Martin has an easier time relating to her tomboy sister. And now of course with the benefit of knowing where Martin took the character - he did the thing with her that he does with all his important characters, he put her through hell and humbled her to show us and her what she is made of.  He does this over and over again with his POV characters. And the ones that live through the hell and come out on the other side of it maybe get to be part of the end game. I think Sansa is an end game character. 

It's kind of iffy to me that he felt the need to humble her through all that abuse to make her better character. Her siblings all through hell too, but we just feel bad about the shit they go through, we don't think "gee, Arya and Bran are so much cooler as wandering orphans now, these trials and tribulations are horrible but they sure are character building!". I do think her early chapters are satire, because they can't be taken seriously. But that just makes her stick out more from the other original PoVs. 

[Protar]

I like to think that Martin vilifying Sansa in the first book was just his trope busting at it again. In a more typical story Sansa might remain that insufferable, naive little girl until the end, designed purely as a foil to the cooler tomboy Arya. Just as Martin sets up Ned as the main protagonist only to kill him off, so too does he make Sansa this almost satirical ingenue in the beginning only to subvert it later on.

[ambi76]

Well, I had to re-read Sansa when I first became aware of the insane amount of hate for that character in fandom. My not Stark-focused-ness made me really not get that. Didn't really get it after re-read either, because I was like: So what? Sansa is just a silly little girl. Who cares? To the amount of hate-hate-hate, seriously? But then immediately after Ned's death I fell in love with her, so now Sansa hate makes me angry.

 

I also think that GRRM wanted to built Sansa up as this "trope girl" and then deconstruct it like he always does, except he went so over the top with the built up that the deconstruction didn't work anymore for many readers. He has mentioned regrets about some Sansa stuff he wrote (that her haters are absolutely unable to get over) in GOT because of that I think.

 

Cersei is a much more sexually manipulative creature in the books and I don't really have a problem with that, except in the case of trying to bribe Ned with sex that's almost as dumb as Ned not telling Robert.

Edited July 3, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

Well from my experience, if there's any sure fire way to make an audience hate a character, it's to make them stupid (or cowardly, but I don't know how much that applies to Sansa). People can forgive the most heinous of acts in fictional characters if the anti-hero is clever and charismatic. But you make a character kind of dumb, and especially if you make that stupidity harm the other more likeable characters and there'll be hell to pay. And for some strange reason (hmm what could it be?) this seems doubly true for female characters. Sansa wises up a lot in future books, but gods she is not very bright in aGoT. 

[ambi76]

Yup, being below average intelligence is obviously worse than flaying people in fiction. Audiences have issues. I also often have heard, when I defended Sansa's right to be as silly and dumb as she pleases, that sure such characters do exist, but for heavens sake don't make me read their POVs. I want a Mace Tyrell* POV for that reason, just to piss people off.

 

*another not very popular character in ASOIAF that has done absolutely nothing but exist and being "allegedly" dumb.

Edited July 3, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

Well I think what happens is that you know, flaying is horrible stuff, but if a character is flaying people alive you can comfortably see them as a villain. And if they're charismatic and compelling they can be interesting to read about. One can love the character but hate the person. I find both the Bolton's (in the books) very compelling and terrifying villains. You can't do that with Sansa. She's not villainous, but nor is she heroic. She's just a naive eleven year old girl. And people don't know what to do with that, with this seemingly dead weight character. It breaks people's brains. Even when Martin subverts things and develops her they can't forgive.