Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Avaleigh]

Re: Quaithe

 

Spoiler for TWOIAF so probably not for Shimpy--

 

I didn't think that Quaithe was bad at first. It wasn't until reading TWOIAF where it talks about shadowbinders did I consider that she might actually be one of the most dangerous people in the series. I can't find the quote from TWOIAF but if makes shadowbinders seem dangerous and IIRC they're the only people who go into the forbidden areas of Asshai where even people who live there don't go. Something huge is up with this character and I think it's going to be super dark.

 

I actually agree with everything that you're saying about Lady Stoneheart and Catelyn, Shimpy. I have more thoughts and speculation but I think it's probably better for me to spoiler tag them just in case I inadvertently spoil something from ADWD. 

 

I think Lady Stoneheart being alive means that there's still hope. I agree that Catelyn would be appalled but I also think that there's a possibility that Lady Stoneheart can find peace before her second death and I think it could be from finding out that most of her children are in fact alive and are going to continue to fight and survive.

 

 

I'm not sure that I agree that Catelyn was a believer in law, order, and all things decent. I actually think she was pretty cynical myself. Ned on the other hand I definitely think this describes him. 

[Delta1212]

Oh! I literally just figured out the

dark flame

part of Quaithe's warning.

(Just the name out of the list that I'm pretty sure I figured out the identity of, not what that identity is. Doesn't really spoil anything, I suppose, but I still spoilered it out of an abundance of caution. Better to give people the option not to see things if they don't want to.)

[stillshimpy]

I'm not sure that I agree that Catelyn was a believer in law, order, and all things decent. I actually think she was pretty cynical myself. Ned on the other hand I definitely think this describes him.

 

I'm pretty sure she did, Avaleigh, she was often times practical and she was jaded in a couple of instances -- primarily about men being faithful, it seems -- but she had ultimate faith in the freaking rules of that world.  One of the most painful parts of the passages leading into the Red Wedding is Catelyn being so convinced that Robb was safe because of the rules of bread and salt.   She really did seem to believe that there were these unquestionable parts of being a person of honor in that land. Her only area of cynicism seemed to be about what men would get up to with women and how love wasn't going to be a motivating factor in a lot of that.  

 

The whole thing with Mya Stone is case in point on that, but even that cynicism had its limits because when it came to Jeyne Westerling, Catelyn didn't have suspicions  about the motives of her family or the posset of herbs to enhance fertility.  She clearly believed men were dangerous on a lot of levels (she didn't trust Theon fully because she knew too much about Balon's nature, etc. etc.)  ...but then she still believed in the word of these men.    She knows the Red Wedding might be a trap...right up until they have the "no one breaks THIS rule" protection. 

 

So she did, she just was well acquainted with the lesser nature of men.  

 

But the idea that she "gets" to bring down vengeance as if it is a reward of some sort doesn't track with me.  Yes, I think if you'd told Tywin Lannister "Hey, after your dead, would you like to be the scariest scary thing to ever scare the people who have wronged you?  And kill them?"  His reaction would have been, "Sweet! Legend building even after death? I'm in!"  

 

Catelyn Stark wouldn't have wanted to, it was just the thing that animated her when everything else she ever gave a damn about was murdered and gone.  It was the evidence of the ruination of her, not a reward. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Oh hey, by the way?  I have forgotten to mention the thing in Reek's chapter that actually really did get to me:  That it's the two Walders that come to torment Theon in his cell.  Something about that was just profoundly sad to me.  

 

I think because Theon's point of no return in the story involves the two boys he kills to pass off as the Starks and it felt like a very specific punishment that the first two people Theon-as-Reek is around are these two sadistic, horrible Frey boys. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I think Catelyn's surety that they were safe once they'd gone through the steps of the hospitality ritual isn't just increasing the tragedy or showing Catelyn to be naive, but illustrating just how big of a deal it was that Walder Frey broke that particular rule.

I think, sometimes, it's hard, from a modern perspective, to wrap our heads around a society where there isn't really a strong central authority enforcing the rules. We don't have to trust in anyone honor because we know (within some bounds) that if anyone cheats us or does anything really bad to us, they are quite likely to be punished by the ruling authority. And as a consequence, I think we're somewhat conditioned to expect that people are simply going to be more likely to cheat in situations where the rules can't be strictly enforced from the top.

But when the vast majority of your social interactions are conducted without strong oversight or enforcement (as is, comparatively, the case with feudal societies), an assumption that everyone is going to cheat at every opportunity is a good recipe for a chaotic society.

That's why things like honor and chivalry and guest right and even just etiquette become important. They establish the rules of social interaction so that people know what they are supposed to do and are less likely to get into interpersonal conflicts that can easily turn deadly, and the rules are enforced by social taboos rather than a strong central authority.

To use an example that I'm using because I can't think of a more comparable one in modern society and not because of the ironic echo within the story: A person is unlikely, even if they suspect their significant other of being or being willing to be unfaithful, of having an affair with their sibling. And the reason people don't suspect that isn't because they think that they don't have the opportunity or that they'd obviously get caught if they were, but because it's so far outside the bounds of what most of society considers normal behavior, even in the case of a particularly amorous person.

So my sense is that while Catelyn didn't trust Walder Frey, the idea of him breaking guest right in this world would have held a similar 'does not computer' level of disbelief as finding out that your boyfriend was cheating on you with his sister in ours.

[WindyNights]

More like finding out your boyfriend is screwing his sister, mom and grandma. It's that taboo.

 

It's so bad that in AFFC people not even affiliated with the Starks are using Frey as an insult. 

 

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

I was dutifully taking notes about what Qaithe said (TileFace) because it kind of turns out that she's more than a walk-on character in Dany's story, she's sort of a regular "Hi!  I'm astrally projecting! Cool huh? Well, hold onto that 'this is nifty' because apparently beaming directly into your night has used up all my powers of clarity and I will proceed to be cryptic.  Here we go!"

 

One of the only things in that chapter that had me liking Dany was her "oh fuck this, stop with the cryptic comments and talk plainly already" reaction.  Dany was channeling, well, me at that point.  Otherwise, this is where Dany starts sliding into my "unlikeable" zone, especially her pining over Daario.  In the show, she's fond of him and enjoys using him for sex, but she says flat out to Jorah "I could never trust a man like him", so she knows what he is.  In the books, she might as well be writing "Dany + Daario = Troo LUV" in the margins of her algebra book.  The excuse is "well, she IS still just a teenager" but I don't buy it.  After all she's been through since marrying Drogo, getting all hormonal over this fop seems like character regression.

 

That first Reek chapter is pretty hard reading, but as someone stated above, at least the torture occurred off-page.  I think the show-runners' rationale behind showing so much of it in season 3 was that they didn't want Alfie Allen to be off-screen for the bulk of the season (Isaac Hempstead Wright could not be reached for comment).  In the DVD commentaries for one of the torture-porn episodes, the writer (or possibly director, I don't remember which) said she actually asked D&D "could we maybe NOT torture Theon so much?" and they said no. 

[stillshimpy]

I don't know if anyone here will remember a poster from the TWoP boards in that first season named Ulle, but she's from Sweden and one of the messages we exchanged off board was discussing her perception that the Americans she met had an almost touching level of belief in their safety wherever we went.  I ended up explaining the structure of local law enforcement, how we have city, county, state, federal...we have a lot of structures in place that we look to for justice.  Hell, I live about two blocks from a police station.  If I stood in my backyard and really let loose with a scream for help?  There's an actual chance the police would physically hear me.  

 

Now by saying that I've just revealed a ton of things about myself as someone who believes the police are there to help me.  So there are certain things that influence my feelings of safety.  

 

But that's held true throughout history even when those structures weren't in place.  It isn't just the "no one could break this rule, because anarchy would result!" of it all, it's her status within that world also.  A status she's always held that reinforces her belief that you don't fuck with that much potential might brought to bear.  It's something that Frey actually knows, because of the way in which he kills all of Robb's men too.  If you're going to break that rule, you had better go big because the backlash should burn your actual house to the ground.  

 

However, Catelyn's belief in that "these are the rules we do not violate" carrying weight has at least a little bit of "because I tell myself it is true rather than it being strictly true" ....how many "kinslayers" are running around?  How about the Kingslayer?  There's more along that line, but there is an element of faith in other people that is not actually well-founded in that world.  There are actually reasons that Catelyn is simply choosing belief.  

 

And in fact, when he does break it, Frey is rewarded on all sides.  Jeyne Westerling's mother having an "understanding" with Tywin Lannister (whatever it all entailed)...she was keeping her daughter from becoming pregnant, presumably because she knew there was some plan -- even if she didn't know the specifcs -- to kill her daughter's husband and she hoped to benefit from that. 

 

The only way for Catelyn to have a level "this does not compute" belief in that world...this is the woman who sent her husband to King's Landing, willingly...was to ignore what went down there.  Murdered babies?  Rule breaking.  King's killed by their own guard?  Another sacrosanct rule broken. 

 

There's something willful in Catelyn's beliefs and it's trust or it's stubborness...or it's faith...I don't know, but it also bespeaks a woman who hasn't really examined what has gone down in her world and this is after her first intended was "strangled" (as far as she knows) at the order of the king...and her sister-in-law abducted by the Crown Prince (again, as far as she knows) ....

 

Big, big ass rules got broken in that world and the only reason Catelyn doesn't twig to that is not that it's unthinkable, it's that she's refusing to think about it, for whatever reason.  

 

 

 

@shimpy Are you going to read "The Winds of Winter" chapters that have been released after ADWD?

 

I'm so sorry, I keep forgetting to answer this, Windy Nights, because I think you may have asked me before.   You know, I don't yet, is the thing.  I think I likely will though :-)  

 

ETA: Also, I'll trust you guys that the stuff at Winterfell is the stuff that really makes the Theon/Reek story .  It's got to be clear (from space) that I have some resentment over the shows treatment of it.   So thanks for letting me know there is another chapter of "just get through that one and try to reserve judgment until you hit the good stuff" chapter.  

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

in the show, she's fond of him and enjoys using him for sex, but she says flat out to Jorah "I could never trust a man like him", so she knows what he is.  In the books, she might as well be writing "Dany + Daario = Troo LUV" in the margins of her algebra book.

 

You weren't paying attention then because (don't read this shimpy)  

Daenerys in the books thinks the same way about him. Like she literally says that he's a monster and she also knows he only wants to be her with because she's the dragon queen.

Edited December 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

Damn Atlantic Ocean being so wide making me arriving too late! *shakes fist towards west* And giving thumbs-up like a crazed person XD but the last page and a half’s content was really good. Ok, some general comments:

 

 

Soo, yes, the Rise of the Bloodraven, probably the single thing I was most anticipating for Shimpy to discover, yay! And I was so fearing she would have remembered that single line in the show in the worst possible moment (like, two paragraph before the actual reveal, for example).
And now you can see this Odin-esque figure enthroned to the tree of wisdom, having lost one eye and having ravens ‘whispering secrets to his ear’ (Huginn and Muginn much). Think about a Hand who could literally inhabit the beasts in the realm… the Big Bastard Brother is watching you, and Varys’ little birds better hide in shame.
And you also can see now the parallels between him and Jon, both (Targ?) bastards rising to being Lord Commanders and entangled both with the politics and the magics of Westeros. Plus, Brynden’s colors, red and white, are both a mirror to the weirwoods and Ghost (Jon himself was disquieted the first time he noticed in AGoT, and quite happy about that in Storm).

For me, having read the novellas after the books, the reveal came the other way around, but like I was telling Mya a couple of pages ago reading of how Dunk felt both eyes of Brynden look deep inside him, and the way Bloodraven was staring at him, as if he recognized him from one of his dreams, was a really powerful moment.

And after the Mystery Knight was published, a lot of people were already speculating - well, more like they were dead certain - that this Bloodraven would have been the Three Eyed Crow. 

 

 

Re Clodhands: I'll just mention that a quite popular theory states that he could be the Night King, the former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that became the lover of a lady Other, as Bran tells while in the Dreadfort at the end of Storm, and that this is somehow his atonement. Some thin evidence may be him talking to the elk in a foreign language and the Child of the Forest stating that he died 'long ago' (considering that the girl herself is at least 200 yo, 'long ago' may mean 'loooooong ago'). I was really convinced the guy was Benjen during my first read, atm I have no firm idea. I still hope for Uncle Ben to be alive, in a real, warm-blooded way.

 

Yes, Theon/Reek chapters are gruesome and the poor thing’s state of mind is pitiable, but I loved all of them; I totally understand why someone who already knows (or thinks she knows :P ) the broad plot and has been forced to a three-years long drag about torture and Ramsay being super-duper-eeeeevil may find them less than thrilling. But once in Winterfell the whole thing just lifts off, it's my second most anticipated snippet for Shimpy to read.
About lady Hornwood, though, I think she never ate her finger because of hunger: she ate them to stop the pain after being flayed, just like Reek did once. He just doesn’t connect the dots.
Also, Shimpy, the guy in the byrnie is pretty standardless, but remember the other guy’s brooch (the silver sunburst), it will save you some head scratching later ^^

And this is the plot I most sorely miss from the series: I was sincerely shocked that we didn't get a single scene in front of the

weirwood

, especially given how good Alfie Allen is with scenes without dialogue and how profusely the screenwriter praised him in the first seasons. And I think Season 2 did a wonderful job in adapting Theon's arc, so more the pity.

 

In some previous Tyrion’s chapter there was an interesting mention about the shadowbinders of Asshai with their lacquered masks… so you can have some suspect about the kind of magic Quaithe dabs in (it is then expanded in AWoIaF, as noted upthread). I Myself always considered Melisandre's shadowbaby an example of this kind of magic (she likes to talk about light casting shadows, but this has nothing to do with R'hllor, it's much closer to the evocation of some demon to do as you command).

 

 

ETA: While Quaithe's prophecy at the moment is supposed to be cryptic, I'll remind that in the House of the Undying Dany saw a cloth dragon being welcomed by an exulting crowd, and she told Jorah later that it resembled one of those props mummers use in their plays in the Free Cities. The rest is up to Shimpy to play with ;)

Edited December 24, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Terra Nova]

It drives me nuts that no one has told Dany the story about how the war began, how her father's and brother's actions tore the seven kingdoms apart.

Well, when she read in Jorah's books about Baelor imprisoning his three sisters in the Keep so that their look and wanton nature wouldn't tempt his holy body her comment was 'oh, what a droll little tale about princesses in a tower!' 

The Nile is strong with this one...

[vibeology]

In some previous Tyrion’s chapter there was an interesting mention about the shadowbinders of Asshai with their lacquered masks… so you can have some suspect about the kind of magic Quaithe dabs in (it is then expanded in AWoIaF, as noted upthread). I Myself always considered Melisandre's shadowbaby an example of this kind of magic (she likes to talk about light casting shadows, but this has nothing to do with R'hllor, it's much closer to the evocation of some demon to do as you command).

 

 

ETA: While Quaithe's prophecy at the moment is supposed to be cryptic, I'll remind that in the House of the Undying Dany saw a cloth dragon being welcomed by an exulting crowd, and she told Jorah later that it resembled one of those props mummers use in their plays in the Free Cities. The rest is up to Shimpy to play with ;)

So the question I've always had about Quaithe is is that actually a prophecy? Shimpy was able to pick out most of the list because those people are already on their way to Dany. Quaithe could just have a network of spies so good Varys would be sick with envy. The fact that she says stuff that we recognize to be true makes us trust her, but what if that's her plan all along? That's one thing I can say I remember from reading this for the first time; I trust no one because Martin is mean and trope reversing. I don't know if that's how I'm supposed to look at the story but that's been how it has impacted me.

[Terra Nova]

Yes, 'prophecy' would be better. Just like I'm sure Melisandre saw the Usurpers' death in the fires and the leeches thing was more of a show: I mean, all those deaths come from mundane plotting, most of them started well before the ritual anyway, so it's not like Gendry's blood suddenly put a homicidal surge in Olenna's mind or such.

Also, she mentions the candles burning: if she has an obsidian candle network, she needs only to tune in from time to time to get the latest Planetosi news...

 

The other fan theory is that, apart from the first time she met her in Vaes Tolorro, Quaithe is just a figment of Dany's imagination, with some prophetic qualities coming from the same place the Targ dreams come (it's interesting, but I think Quaithe is real). 

Either way, Dany just got offered a healthy load of suspicion and mistrust and she swallowed it hook, line ad sinker: 'Trust me when I say don't trust anyone... ' (it's really Littlefinger-y, now that I wrote it that way)

Edited December 24, 2015 by Terra Nova

[bobbybuilderton]

I am one of those assholes who thinks Daenerys in book 5 is showing signs of having targaryen insanity but I have learned that this is not a popular opinion among those who analyse the books. It'd make sense to me though, as lots of mental health issues start appearing by around daenerys's age.

[stillshimpy]

Well weirdly, one of the first things I thought about when I woke up this morning was about Theon's childhood dream that Ned Stark would declare him his trueborn son and Theon would get to marry Sansa.  So that's highly revealing material there too and although it's really clear that the show just went too far for me.  Just pissed me right on the hell off it did do a couple of things with Theon that were good choices.  One was showing he was always obviously motivated by simply wanting to be loved by a parental figure.  That makes a lot of sense.  

 

The book hinted at Theon's emotional life prior to this, as all was going to hell at Winterfell.  He cared that people hated him, even if his reaction to that was making them hate him even more.  The TV series, which I'm just merciless too about that damned torture arc, actually did some things well with Theon because it makes that part of Theon more accessible.  

 

But I can tell that part of what influences my reaction to Theon's most recent chapters is that it's still a subject that ticks me off.  I just was really trying to figure out what it would have been like to read that stuff -- because I can't even adequately detail my utter delight at the Bloodraven reveal, it was freaking cool and things started clicking into place like crazy -- and it must have been some of the most gripping stuff you guys had ever seen.  No substantial mention of this character for two huge books, years and years if you were reading from jump and it's a tiny bit like the Benjen mystery (although Benjen was never a developed character) ....finally answers.  

 

Holy hellfire balls though, the freaking answers.  The stuff that reads as excess and over-indulgence to me is because at this point, to me? It is excessive.  I've already had a metric fuckton of Theon's torture and you know, there are added details in the chapter that make it "Oh fuck you, enough of this shit."  Detailing parts of him that are gone and where his teeth have been ripped out...and if all of that was just fresh it would be a case of "oh my friggin' gawd, what the hell?!? Poor Theon!!"  

 

So I get why I'm not having the same experience, the Blooraven reveal gives me a hint of how "Wheeeeeee!" some of the reveals were and that Theon reveal -- if you haven't already developed repetitive-motion-induced callouses on your brain from too much of that stuff -- would be a case of a serious "Oh...shit.  Oh god....oh nooooooo!" because one of the things that has in common with the show?  No one could ever, ever deserve to be treated like that.  No one. 

 

What reads to me as yet another truckload of gross-out material would have just been an electrifying shock to your systems.  

 

 

 

Re Clodhands: I'll just mention that a quite popular theory states that he could be the Night King, the former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that became the lover of a lady Other, as Bran tells while in the Dreadfort at the end of Storm, and that this is somehow his atonement. Some thin evidence may be him talking to the elk in a foreign language and the Child of the Forest stating that he died 'long ago' (considering that the girl herself is at least 200 yo, 'long ago' may mean 'loooooong ago'). I was really convinced the guy was Benjen during my first read, atm I have no firm idea. I still hope for Uncle Ben to be alive, in a real, warm-blooded way.

 

Oh that's fun!  The firelight reflecting in his eyes and the color reading as being the same as the Ravens -- which is part of what convinced me that it was a warg/skinchanger and the same entity -- is what caught me initially.  That's a fun theory though, and I know the Night King was allegedly drilled into the Wall, so his body could have been on ice all that time.  

 

I think it's likely Coldhands being controlled by Bloodraven.    Now, that does mean that Benjen's fate is still up in the air and if I have learned one thing from some of the characters who have popped back up, that doesn't necessarily mean anything good. 

 

But yes, the Bloodraven things was just so damned fun.  On the "you will fly" thing, I don't know if Bloodraven/King Root Dude was referring to the ability to be in the ravens or if Bran will end up riding some dragon.  The most intriguing thing in Dany's chapter, for me, is that it at least hints that she'll actually eventually be convinced to consider the Starks as something other than Usurper Houndies. 

 

ETA:

 

I am one of those assholes who thinks Daenerys in book 5 is showing signs of having targaryen insanity but I have learned that this is not a popular opinion among those who analyse the books. It'd make sense to me though, as lots of mental health issues start appearing by around daenerys's age.

 

I personally think the show has hinted at that angle at least once when Viserys is "crowned" and the way actor playing Dany played that scene was not the stuff of sanity.  The line read on "Fire cannot harm a dragon" was completely detached from any human reality of just have watched her brother die horribly.  It's part of why I found the way Lloyd played Viserys super important, because he just sounded so pathetic when he was begging Dany and whereas even very loving people might see the necessity of "Dude, you would not hesitate to have me killed and you will harm.my.child ...as horrible as it is...you have to die."  

 

But there was no regret from Dany in that moment.  She sounded fascinated.  

 

However, I'm not picking that up in Book Dany, although it seems clear that she actually might be fearing that a little herself, even if she doesn't understand that "No really, a lot of your ancestors were entirely insane, inbreeding is bad for a reason"  ...she understands that it's more than a little odd to hallucinate people and covers that up.  

 

But also there was a moment in which she is trying to convince herself that the goatherd/sheepherder might have killed his own daughter for the money and then burned the bones.  That was a little unhinged.  But then Dany is being encouraged by Quaithe to be paranoid and to keep herself distant from those around her.  So that's not the stuff of mental health and I think it's more that she's incredibly isolated and is actually worrying about things like her dragons withering away and dying. 

 

I'm assuming Tyrion's knowledge of dragons is what is going to make her consider his input on any level, because clearly if the Targs had dragons for so long, they had some way of keeping them from killing the general population.   

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Oh also, thank you on the Lady Hornwood theory, Terra Nova! That actually does make sense and part of what has always bothered the hell out of me about that "she tried to eat her own fingers!!" is that it is just a terrible detail and if it is meant to suggest starvation, then Martin didn't actually research starvation and what it would do to a person.  However, you're right that would make more sense. 

[mac123x]

About lady Hornwood, though, I think she never ate her finger because of hunger: she ate them to stop the pain after being flayed, just like Reek did once. He just doesn’t connect the dots.

 

Okay, I feel a little Reekish because I didn't connect the dots either, but that's a good explanation.  I had just assumed that it was a story that got distorted with the retelling, kind of like how Sansa killed Joffrey then turned into a wolf with wings and flew off, or how Brienne fought the bear naked.  Colorful but false details that got added to the story to make it more lurid.

 

Regarding Quaithe's cryptic comments:  I don't think it's a prophecy either.  She says the glass candles are burning, then rattles off a list of people she's seen that are currently on their way to Meereen.  She just dresses it up in flowery language rather than being clear.

 

One part that bugs me is when she says "remember the Undying".  Dany interprets this as "remember what the Undying told you" and associates it with the three betrayals foretelling, but I think she's misconstruing it.  I mean, how would Quaithe know what the Undying told Dany?  I think "Remember the Undying" goes with the preceding "Trust none of them".  Q is actually saying "Trust no one.  Remember how you trusted the Undying?  They promised you answers when really they just wanted to eat you."

[stillshimpy]

By the way, this was a rocking detail: 

 

She says the glass candles are burning

 

And one thing I'll gladly give Martin is he knows how to rock a tie-in.  He doesn't hit it too hard or lingering on it in a "in the center ring" spotlighted fashion.  It actually took me going back to check my highlighted area (I love the hell out of that feature in Kindles) to do a double take and have the penny drop on "oooooh....shit....the candle crew at the Citadel!!"  

 

I can't blame Dany for not picking up on the "Remember (what complete shits) the Undying (were in all of this)" because she has just had sanity breaking stuff rain down upon her throughout and it's actually Jorah's betrayal that was the most emotionally damaging to her, I think.   Plus, the way it was written, "You HAVE to forgive me" was ...yeah....there's a reason that Dany scampers directly to the "who will be the next to betray me?" and can't even trust a little girl to be loyal.  

 

I think the story has earned Dany's immediate leap to "You're right, the Undying warned me! I should remember those warnings!"  vs.  "they were actually just fucking with me on some level" and sadly the reason it makes sense is because of Jorah Mormont's betrayal.  

 

There was an added detail in the book that made me wince:  that Jorah had spied even after the wine poisoning attempt.  It was worse than I knew.  

[bobbybuilderton]

It's actually kind of hard to say if Quaithe tells Daenerys about the Ironborn going towards her before or after the kingsmoot, since the books are split geographically., not chronologically. On one hand, the chapter where Euron reveals he wants to take her dragons and the chapter where Quaithe warns her are around the same length into the books...but on the other hand, we don't know how much time passes between victarion leaving moat cailin and the kingsmoot taking place, and reek/theon getting to moat cailin (which happens in a chapter after quaithe warns Daenerys. I would guess that Theon is arriving to moat cailin around the time they are deciding to go with Euron's plan, which would put quaithe's warning before that was determined. Though if that is the case, it's still possible that she just has really good spies and overheard euron talking to someone.

 

There is slight overlap to the beginning of book 4 and the end of book 3, which means chapter 19 AFfC(kingsmoot) could still be happening close to chapter 11 of ADwD(quaithe warning). Curse you, martin!!!!

[Delta1212]

And the timelines for different characters don't always seem to sync up in strictly chapter order, especially the ones who are most disconnected from the action of everyone else. I know some fan timelines have put Danaerys and Arya especially as often being very out of sync with the chapters around them.

Edit:

And on Theon, I think the problem is that because the show didn't want to drop Alfie Allen for a full season or two at that point, they took the chapter or two that Martin used to really hammer in what has happened to Theon since we last saw him and stretched it over two seasons. So instead of "Bang Bang, that's what happened to Theon, now let's continue with his arc" it was "Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang [oh my god shut UP!] Bang, ok, time for an arc now!"

Edited December 24, 2015 by Delta1212

[Terra Nova]

There are calendars and chronologies compiled by fans (I remember two of them, and so accurate that they differ of few days), and they show how some characters are out of phase with the rest of narration: Sansa is several months behind the main bulk, for example, and Arya several months ahead (this could have been desumed just by how many things and languages she learned each chapter in Feast).
But yeah, I would say Quaithe's chit chat is some Essosi flash news dressed with fancy words.

 

ETA: as for Theon, yes, watching the show first really damages the beginning of his arc in Dance... though I hope it is still salvageable for Shimpy ^^

The other problem for me at least is that the timeline in the series is sketchy at best: while they had Cersei staing in Season 4 that she had been a queen for almost 20 years - so we can assume almost a year per season goes by - it's clearly not the case: Bran took two years to reach King Root? The Wildlings waited for eight months before storming Castle Black in Season 4? Gilly's baby is still an infant and he's born at the beginning of Season 3 (and Gilly herself was REALLY pregnant in season 2)... what is this fuckery?

A-ehm, anyway: my problem was that by showing all Theon's torture there's no room left for imagination (reading this the first time, you're really dreading what the bastard may have done to Theon), and yet it still feels so compressed that buying Theon Reekification somehow is more difficult on show than on page. They felt they really had to show it? Fine, but please, not so much! Especially since we got almost nothing of Theon's arc in Season 5, where the actual payoff should have been: most of the screentime in Winterfell was for Ramsay Sue and his devious wanton sidekick anyway *roll eyes*

Edited December 24, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Avaleigh]

Re: Catelyn and her faith in law, order, justice, etc.

 

I think a big part of me is influenced by her actions in the first book before the most horrible shit has gone down. Everyone's still alive but Bran had his fall so she's hellbent on getting revenge. Understandable, who wouldn't want to get justice for their kid after something like that happens?

 

What does Catelyn do though? She doesn't trust in the fact that her husband is the second most powerful man in Westeros. She doesn't trust what will happen if she doesn't take matters into her own hands so she makes the huge and ultimately wrong decision to kidnap an innocent man. She didn't trust in law, order, and justice to deal with Tyrion. Furthermore when we do get to the Eyrie we see that Catelyn thinks it's a bad idea to allow Tyrion the right to a trial. 

 

With Brienne, I think Catelyn sees that Brienne is a rare one who believes in honor and all the rest of it but that she's basically one in a million.

 

With Frey, I think she was trying to convince herself that he wouldn't turn but that it was always there in the back of her head that it was possible because she's cynical. She doesn't want to believe it so she pushes it to the back of her mind. I also think that even if she had freaked out and insisted that they not go to the wedding that she would have been overruled by the others. At that point she was already on thin ice with Robb's camp so I can see that being another reason for her being less vocal about her suspicions. With Robb, I honestly don't think he considered that it could happen. Allowing Grey Wind to part from him even after Grey Wind's ominous reaction was proof to me that Robb didn't seem to fear being betrayed at least not consciously.  

 

But the idea that she "gets" to bring down vengeance as if it is a reward of some sort doesn't track with me.  Yes, I think if you'd told Tywin Lannister "Hey, after your dead, would you like to be the scariest scary thing to ever scare the people who have wronged you?  And kill them?"  His reaction would have been, "Sweet! Legend building even after death? I'm in!"

Catelyn Stark wouldn't have wanted to, it was just the thing that animated her when everything else she ever gave a damn about was murdered and gone.  It was the evidence of the ruination of her, not a reward.

 

I don't see it as a reward exactly because I agree with your thoughts on Lady Stoneheart. I'm thinking of Tyrion's quote to Jaime about how final death is but with life there are still possibilities. There are still possibilities for Lady Stoneheart but Tywin's story is done and he lost. I certainly don't think that Catelyn would want a Stoneheart version of Tywin out there if say she had the choice to swap places with him so that she could rest in peace. 

 

Re: the idea that Quaithe could be a vision of Dany's--

 

I hadn't considered that. I guess I'm inclined to not go with this idea only because I can't imagine why Dany would envision somebody wearing a mask. For what purpose? The rest is all speculation but I'm spoiler tagging just in case.

Doesn't Dany wonder at one point about Quaithe's appearance and what she's hiding? Why don't we know Quaithe's eye color when we know virtually everybody else's? Why does her identity need to be hidden? What makes shadowbinders so especially dangerous? Is it just about the shadow assassins or is there more to it? What else does she have to tell Dany?

 

Edited to add the word 'second' since obviously Ned wouldn't have been the most powerful man in Westeros. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by Avaleigh

[stillshimpy]

Oh I think she's genuinely seeing Quaithe vs. hallucinating.  I just found it interesting that at least some part of Dany is aware that "okay, so am I talking to anything outside of the confines of my own head?"  when she's interrupted and covers by saying she's praying.  She's the Queen, she doesn't actually need to say anything to that question other than, "nothing" or "it doesn't concern you" or hell "Honestly?  I just saw a spirit.  Weird, right?"  but she has some reason within her to fear that she will be judged badly for that and conceals it.  I found that part interesting. 

 

Avaleigh, those are all good points about Catelyn, and with a lot of merit.  

 

So I'm kind of sure you guys will have figured this out about me, I know poor Mya has on multiple occasions: I am almost completely incapable of backing down on a point when being pushed on it.  I couldn't help but laugh at the "Lady Hornwood probably was trying to stop the pain" thing because it makes perfect sense and poor Mya watched me rant for a good ten minutes last night about how "And furthermore, that's not how starvation works!  There's a reason that people in famine stricken lands still have their fingers, for starters and..." cue the verbosity that is me when I'm worrying a bone.  

 

But almost as soon as I'm done venting I do try to really absorb everyone else's points.  It hasn't escaped me that there a ton of thoughtful and bright people around here and if you guys see merit in the Theon story then despite my show venting, I'm going to try to be open to it, having purged my soul (for the fiftieth time) about just how angry I was with the show for making me sit through that. 

 

It's happened before too.  I came into reading the books just livid with what the show had done with the Direwolves. As the story developed, they are hugely significant parts of revealing the characters of the Stark kids.  It also hasn't really escaped me that Nymeria has gone all Lady Stoneheart in those woods. Cut off from every emotional connection, she just rains down upon anyone or anything that crosses her path like the Last Days of Pompeii with her own pack of subservient outlaws.

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Oh, Shimpy, believe me, all of us got our fair share of blunders and misunderstandings the first time we read the books ^^

I waited until the last moment for something to happen and save poor Ned's head, and I was pretty confident about that, then I reached the part where the crowd starts to go away in silence and I just froze and told myself "... omg, is he dead for real!?"

It totally flew over my head that Jaquen was infiltrating at the Citadel, and Sarellalleras? Pfff, I felt so dumb when lurking forums and seeing it was a given for everyone else.

Varys is Rugen? Ah, really? 

And Sandor? No way he was raiding Saltpans, nope nope... then the Elder Brother got his speech full of tricks and 'he's at peace', and I was completely crushed: noooes, Sandor died like I feared, sad and lonely, and my OTP has just sunken faster than the Lancastria *cue to Sandor lurching in the hall two sentences later, Terra Nova bereft of reason* Then you take a look at some forum and it's all a flying of "I can't wait for Sandor to do this" or "after Sandor does that" and you may experience just a tiny bit of surprise ^^'

I realized only at the end of the fourth book that (under spoiler since it's better)

all the POVs introduced in prologues and epilogues invariantly died at the end of the chapter XD Varamyr still applies!

 

And half of details and foreshadowing are noticed only on re-reads or with some common effort on forums and such... like now, rereading Dance and still seeing clues, that now seem so obvious! (Like Viserion and Drogon fighting 'again': the white dragon is Bloodraven's symbol, the black one is for Blackfyres, and before that comment Dany saw Viserion resting with the head on his tail like an ouroboros)

 

ETA: Also, merry Christmas/Hannukah/insert your holiday here everyone ^^ 

Edited December 24, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

Before Dance was published I read a Reek chapter that Martin released. No way, no how did I want to feel sorry for Theon. Curse you, George! This is a man who murdered two innocent children and betrayed his foster family. He deserved whatever happened, right? Except the torture was unrelenting and was being inflicted by an even bigger monster. (It also helped that Alfie Allen was giving such a splendid performance.) So of course I began rooting for Theon to find his inner Stark and find a way out of his dreadful (ha! pun!) situation. Go figure.

[Triskan]

I really, really, really hope you will enjoy Theon's arc, shimpy ! :)

 

I'm one of those who think it's among the best material GRRM ever wrote ! But, as others said, I think it will get more interesting for you after a couple of his chapters.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Triskan

[bobbybuilderton]

It also hasn't really escaped me that Nymeria has gone all Lady Stoneheart in those woods. Cut off from every emotional connection, she just rains down upon anyone or anything that crosses her path like the Last Days of Pompeii with her own pack of subservient outlaws.

It's funny you mention this, because there was a sizeable part of the fans that were livid at them changing arya's name in braavos from lana of the canals. Coupled with their interpretation of her hiding needle directly opposing textual evidence, it's almost like "um did you not understand the theme of identity running through books four and five or....?" Oh wait right I always forget themes are for 8th grade book reports. Edited December 24, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Delta1212]

I remember reading a bunch of complaints when Arya hid Needle on the show and was extremely confused since that's exactly what happens in the books.

[WSmith84]

I remember reading a bunch of complaints when Arya hid Needle on the show and was extremely confused since that's exactly what happens in the books.

 

The negative reaction there came from comments from the show heads, D&D, about what Needle signified. One of them claimed it was a 'symbol of revenge' or somesuch, which is very much opposite of what it actually signifies (Jon Snow's smile). Most actually praised the scene itself, as it was played in the way it was written. It was those comments that most were annoyed about. And the comment of 'themes are for 8th-grade book reports' really annoyed many.

Edited December 24, 2015 by WSmith84

[stillshimpy]

And the comment of 'themes are for 8th-grade book reports' really annoyed many.

Oooooh, yeah I wondered what the heck that was above, but I take it is a comment from the showrunners?

Edited December 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

It was her inability to throw away her stark identity. Compare/contrast with sansa's rapidly accepting her new identity as alayne, and theon's conflict with his new identity vs old ones, and jon/dany's identities as rulers vs their own desires, and quentyn and his friend's identities, and brienne's identity and idea of a knight, and tyrion's new identity as kinslayer/the monster they all saw him as, and cersei's delusions in conflict with her identity as queen and a woman in their world, and

young griff's questionable identity,

....on and on. It's like it was a conscious choice on the part of the author or something crazy like that.

Weiss: Arya's gotten very good at letting go. She's been forced to let go of everything that means anything to her in this world. And she does a great job of getting rid of that costume, and the coin, but needle is a very special gift. She sees herself as an instrument of revenge in many ways in this world and that sword is the way she's going to exact that revenge on the people who wronged her family-- it's the instrument of that revenge.

Book passage:She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goosefleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don’t tell Sansa! Mikken’s mark was on the blade. It’s just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She’d been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. “It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time…… but it wasn’t.Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. . He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain’s men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this.

They took something that is very positive to her and made it hateful bullshit about revenge. I guess it sure is lucky they're never on the same page as their actors. Otherwise the scene itself would have caused rage as well

[WSmith84]

Oooooh, yeah I wondered what the heck that was above, but I take it is a comment from the showrunners?

 

It is. It was said in an interview with a critic called Andy Greenwald, who's a writer for Grantland. I haven't seen it refuted anywhere, so I assume that it was indeed said. According to him, the comment was a 'sneer.' If it was a serious comment, that's quite an insulting thing to say considering the author whose work they are adapting is layered with themes.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I think D&D should just stop doing these inside the episode features. They catch so much shit for them. Take the description of the scene where Arya hides Needle. Yes, it signified Winterfell and Jon Snow's smile and all that jazz, but is it not something that Arya would view as an instrument for revenge? Does she not train with it throughout the books, fantasizing about using it on those who have wronged her and her family? That is just fans looking to throw a fit, IMO. The scene played out very well, and there is no way D&D didn't inform Maisie about what it signifies and the reaction they wanted her to portray. I don't think the sadness that was shown would come from just her being disappointed about losing a sword she could use to exact revenge. 

 

As for the "themes are for 8th grade book reports', it's very difficult to judge without knowing the context or the way it was said. I believe it was a question asking about the themes of season 6, and it's possible they simply didn't want to reveal anything, so they just gave a sarcastic response. 

[WSmith84]

As for the "themes are for 8th grade book reports', it's very difficult to judge without knowing the context or the way it was said. I believe it was a question asking about the themes of season 6, and it's possible they simply didn't want to reveal anything, so they just gave a sarcastic response. 

 

According to the interviewer, it was a sneer. It was said before season 3, if I remember correctly, in answer to 'is it possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes?'

[Avaleigh]

I hadn't read the 'themes are for eighth grade book reports' comment but I sincerely hope that Benioff was joking. 

 

I've defended D&D a lot but I can see how a comment like that irks beyond belief. Seriously, wth? 

Edited December 24, 2015 by Avaleigh

[bobbybuilderton]

I think D&D should just stop doing these inside the episode features. They catch so much shit for them. Take the description of the scene where Arya hides Needle. Yes, it signified Winterfell and Jon Snow's smile and all that jazz, but is it not something that Arya would view as an instrument for revenge? Does she not train with it throughout the books, fantasizing about using it on those who have wronged her and her family? That is just fans looking to throw a fit, IMO. The scene played out very well, and there is no way D&D didn't inform Maisie about what it signifies and the reaction they wanted her to portray. I don't think the sadness that was shown would come from just her being disappointed about losing a sword she could use to exact revenge. 

 

As for the "themes are for 8th grade book reports', it's very difficult to judge without knowing the context or the way it was said. I believe it was a question asking about the themes of season 6, and it's possible they simply didn't want to reveal anything, so they just gave a sarcastic response. 

Yes let's defend their stupidity when doing so flies in the face of what they've actually said. Let's make excuses for them* and make the baseless claim that it's fans just looking to be upset. The belief that they misinterpret characters is founded on statements and adaptation chocies that they have made. The text itself (which they claim to base their story on, by the way) EXPLICITLY SAYS there are other swords and that she could find another one and that that sword is more of a toy.  Needle does not represent revenge to her. Furthermore, even if you accept that Arya views needle that way, there's still the fact that in that moment that is not why she's having trouble throwing it away. She's having trouble throwing it away because it is a symbol of who she is and her past, not because "oh man, if I toss this dinky little sword I'm letting go of my desire for REVENGE."

 

"Those are just fans looking to throw a fit" is not based on any facts and is an attempt to ignore valid criticism by dismissing the people presenting it as immature or some other negative trait. What you just wrote basically says "ignore that they give tons of evidence of their flawed thought processes while simultaneously accepting the baseless conjecture that people critical of them just WANT to be mad."

 

I'm going to go back to just lurking for a bit because honestly this is the sort of response that's common when some people are presented with criticism of the show and it makes me livid every time. It's maddening trying to point out how little sense something makes in the show and get a response that pretty much says no no it all makes sense if you sort of turn your head and squint, you're just a snobby book reader and don't like change. Or some variant.

 

*shimpy, that's safe to read, just don't poke around on that website. that's for after you're done with the books

Edited December 24, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[ImpinAintEasy]

I'm sorry that it upsets you so much Bobby. I respect your opinion, even if I don't share it. I just felt like in this instance it is a bit of an overreaction. That scene was very well done, and that's all that matters to me. Had I never seen the 'Inside The Episode', I would have interpreted the scene the same as it was described in the book. And as I said, the emotion and sadness that Maisie portrayed had to be coming from a place other than just "I'm throwing away my tool for revenge." That wasn't an accident. IMO.

[Delta1212]

Yeah, I have to say, I'm on the same page as Impin here. I appreciate getting insight into what the production is thinking, but it doesn't overwrite what is actually on the screen for me.

Comments by the producers about how they interpret the scene doesn't ruin it for me any more than their comments improved the Jaime/Cersei Sept scene. The comments have the potential to make the people making them seem out of touch, but they don't really impact how I view what is on the screen, and I think what was on-screen as far as Arya hiding Needle nailed it.

[Autarch]

Regarding the Cat/UnCat divide:

 

" 'Fire consumes,' Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. 'it consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing.' "

 

Beric died -- his first death that is -- with the mission on his mind, and so that's what consumes him in his "afterlife". Cat dies mad, before that hoping to kill Walder Frey; all qualities that have seemingly continued with Uncat. The fire seems to only revive the mental state that was most prominent right before their death, leaving everything else that made them a person behind.

 

Seeing as Stoneheart is that base part of Catelyn that wanted to clutch Theon's flayed skin to her heart, the living Catelyn would of course be appalled by it. She resisted, because those are the things that rational people repress.

 

Catelyn would recognize Stoneheart then, but she actively tries to temper that person with her more ethically minded ideals. Ultimately, Stoneheart is a comment on the failure of Cat to heed that better nature and the consequences of what it brings about.

 

In a way, Stoneheart and her atrocities in the Riverlands is a sort of prelude to the dragons returning to Westeros.

[WindyNights]

Stoneheart hasn't really committed atrocities yet.

 

I mean she's hanging Freys but the ones she's hanged so far she knows to have been involved in the Red Wedding. And she is collecting Riverlander orphans and keeping them safe even though she only started picking them up to look for Arya. 

 

And well, it's hard to hold it against Cat for condemning Brienne. She looks so very guilty. Kind of a dick move with Hyle and Podrick though. 

Edited December 25, 2015 by WindyNights

[magdalene]

One thing Stoneheart has in common with Cat is bad judgment. And I very much hold Stonehearts treatment of  Brienne and her companions against Stoneheart.  To me Stoneheart is in no way a positive force.

Edited December 25, 2015 by magdalene

[WindyNights]

One thing Stoneheart has in common with Cat is bad judgment. And I very much hold Stonehearts treatment of of Brienne and her companions against Stoneheart.  To me Stoneheart is in no way a positive force.

Mixed bag. She had good judgement calls and bad judgement calls. 

 

I mean Brienne looks pretty guilty like screaming Jaime's name, telling LS that he's changed for the better, holding a Lannister Valyrian sword made out of Ice(her husband's Valyrian sword) and holding an official decree from King Tommen giving her his protection as she looks for Sansa and you  do have to take into account that in Cat's last moments Roose pretty much screamed this was partly Jaime's doing.

 

"Jaime Lannister" sends his regards.

 

My theory is (don't read this shimpy)

that she may be looking to crown another Stark king that may or may not turn out to be Jon. I mean she has a red and black Valyrian(Targaryen colors) sword made from Ice the traditional Stark sword, she holds Robb's crown now, she has Ice, she's in cahoots with Howland Reed who knows about Jon's true parentage, she'll probably head north once she finds out Sansa and Rickon are up there, and Jon is in need of a resurrection something Cat is capable of same as Beric. Also take in the magic rules of 3. Beric to Cat to Jon. Yes, yes, I know she hates Jon but only because he's Ned's bastard. If Howland Reed decides to tell her the truth then why would she still hate him. Add in that she also holds Robb's will saying that Jon is his heir and is also about to release the Northern prisoners on their way to King's Landing who also know Jon Snow is the heir to Robb. GRRM also said that Robb's will will show up and be resolved in TWOW.

Edited December 25, 2015 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

Something I wanted to point out though about LS but she did cry when she saw Robb's crown so she's more than just Cat's hate.

 

In [LSH's] hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blade as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood."

[Ashara Payne]

Is it possible that Weiss said more about what Needle meant to Arya but it was edited out? If so, they seriously need to reconsider the editing process. Maybe they don't have time to check thoroughly enough; I think a lot of the problems with the whole adaptation are lack of time IMHO. How much time did they have for Season 1? More than a year? Most special effects-heavy blockbuster movies take far longer and have far more money. Just the writing often takes longer.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Ashara Payne

[ImpinAintEasy]

Is it possible that Weiss said more about what Needle meant to Arya but it was edited out? If so, they seriously need to reconsider the editing process. Maybe they don't have time to check thoroughly enough; I think a lot of the problems with the whole adaptation are lack of time IMHO. How much time did they have for Season 1? More than a year? Most special effects-heavy blockbuster movies take far longer and have far more money. Just the writing often takes longer.

There is no doubt they don't have the ideal amount of time to produce each season. The reason they don't do 12 episodes isn't necessarily because of money, especially not since it has become so popular, but because of time. They can't write,film, and edit 12 episodes in 12 months. Several episodes(Blackwater,The Children, and Hardhome) weren't finished with VFX/editing until a week or two before they aired. I don't know if the writing has suffered because of the filming schedule, but an extra 3-6 months per season surely would have helped. Say what you will about the show, but I don't think it can be argued that the entire production isn't impressive. It's why no matter how questionable the writing can be, I will always watch. (Not for Shimpy)

The only thing that might have made me quit is if Jon was resurrected in the books and he received the Stoneheart treatment and was cut from the show.

Edited December 25, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[Terra Nova]

I was about to post an old link to a topic at westeros.org regarding Cat's perceived-but-not-really-existant bad judgement, but after they moved the forum and stuff... all the old topics are truncated D: it seems the posts are cut after few hundreds words... omg, all those re-reads, lost forever! 

I wanted to leave the link anyway, but the topic is barely readable at all :(

Anyway, I think Cat suffers from the reader having more infos than her, so that all her decisions are easily labelled as 'blunders'; in this the series plays a part, since Ned command to mobilize the Northern armies has been turned into 'careful on the road, and watch your temper!', and after that there's the meeting with Tyrion at the Inn of the Crossroads. I also feel that while most other characters get free passes for some of their mistakes, the amount of hate Cat gets it's staggering: so much that part of it just overspills over Sansa, so that it's pretty easy to find people loathing Cat and => Sansa, especially in how they both were 'horrible' o Tyrion and Jon.

 

 

D&D: time is a severe issue, true, but it's something they brought upon themselves: since the first season they reduced the number of screewriters and increased the number of episodes they are directing, basically further reducing the available time: if they are so hard pressed (see their statements about wanting to wrap in seven seasons because they're fed up), they can easily renounce some of the tasks, stay as executive producers and writers, especially since I don't remember any of them directing anything before GoT. Especially because I think it's undeniable that the overall show has been increasingly sloppy in the past couple of years, particularly in the writing department.

(this just to point out that there is something to be done against the lack of time, if only they wanted to)

Edited December 25, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Which Tyler]

Merry Christmas all on here

[bobbybuilderton]

I'm fairly certain if I ran to a cop they'd try to shoot me and then get away with it because they claim looked like I was attacking them (am black male 18-24 range). But that's a poster for the uk, not Chicago so I'll allow it

Edited December 25, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[stillshimpy]

Whatever you do or don't celebrate, I hope everyone has a joyous day and a wonderful season to follow. Merry Happy to us all :-)

On the "themes are for eighth grade book reports", oh boy, what a regrettable word choice.  I can sort of massage that into a shape that isn't just fully obnoxious, but it was still an ill-considered thing to voice.  Basically that very overt themes, that are too easily sussed out "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." kind of "let me lay it all on the table for you, we're banging it out the cheap seats over here"  are things used for instructional purposes and that most works don't have themes that are that easy to suss out.  

 

Part of the reason I'm bothering to take the time to figure out a nicer meaning for that, is that no one who goes into a profession that involves storytelling as its focus could really have that much disdain for narrative structures, archetypes and journeys (all of which have a close relationship to themes).  There's just no way for someone who has a life built around the telling of stories really thinks themes are childish.  

 

I also think that he may have meant that good storytelling has enough subtlety to make themes blend in and be absorbed easily, rather than being things that really stand out.  

 

Mostly I think he was just trying to be clever and didn't realize "Wow, foot-in-mouth disease, name one thing I really shouldn't have said!" because successful, long-running stories with multiple installments need to have themes, journeys, structures in order to thrive.  Otherwise it's pointless.   So that's why I kind of doubt he really meant that.  We also have a tendency to want people to be so personable in these interviews that they kind of crank up their normal level of animation and a lot of the people who do behind the scenes, production, writing, directing are actually more comfortable in the "don't point that thing at me" behind-the-scenes work.  

 

Just saying it's not exactly surprising that a showrunner  steps in it up to his earlobes when doing press, being the front-and-center of attention is never their forte. 

Edited December 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I hope that's the case shimpy.

 

Merry Christmas to everyone!