Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Alayne Stone]

Has the whole "three and ten" thing only been there from book 4 and onward? I could have sworn it had been there all along, but maybe I'm just used to it by now.

 

Shimpy, I'll be very curious to see what your overall thoughts are on the Cersei/King's Landing plot in the books compared to the show as we continue to press forward. And I can finally get around to why I like Cersei not as a character I personally root for (I don't) but why I just find her to be fascinating in that "can't look away from a car wreck" sort of way. And yes. No one internalizes misogyny like Cersei Lannister. She may be one of the worst offenders in all of Westeros.

 

Glad you were able to stop somewhere over the holiday though I can definitely see why that must have been quite a bizarre place to have to stop lol

[Haleth]

Wow, so that was the first fascinating Cersei chapter ever. Way to consign a holy war there, queen regent. Also, I never would have guessed that the Sparrow plot would be fascinating! Holy...cats. Cersei is clearly spooling up to Anne Boleyn the hell out of Marg, and I have to imagine that the plot will soon swerve, because everyone who has ever studied any English history (thinks they) at least know the basics of that.

What could possibly go wrong with that?

Cersei has zero awareness that she just got played by the High Sparrow, someone far shrewder than she is. A militarized arm of the church? What could possibly go wrong there too?

[ambi76]

Golden Hand the Just, eh?

 

Now isn't that just beautiful. With the show having him and Jon "shake hands" in the second episode it gives me ideas.

Eh, who am I kidding, as if Jaime will make it to the end. If he did I could totally see him become King Jon's Golden "Hand".

Edited November 28, 2015 by ambi76

[Delta1212]

Sinecure is Latin, Braggadocio is styled after Italian words being 'trendy' at court, Avatar is Sanscrit. And all of these stick out like a sore thumb in a Medieval setting (while all the years you listed belong to Modern Era already). Especially after deciding to resume the Germanic way of counting.

Plus, nothing's lost if Cersei said 'the High Septon is considered to be the voice of the Gods on earth/the Gods made flesh' or similar. Same goes for the others. I have a gripe with using borrowed words from languages that do not exist in Westeros (same goes for the bazars in Sunspear), while English synonims are available and understandable. This should have been work for the editors.

If you start going down that route, you have to start throwing out way too many words that there isn't any easy replacement for. Assassin was adopted into English around the same time as the above mentioned words, for instance.

And then French doesn't exist in Westeros, either, so although most of the French vocabulary in English was adopted during the Medieval period, that obviously couldn't have happened in Westeros, so beef and pork and cream are all right out.

And if words of Latin origin are out, that's a huge wealth of basic English vocabulary that has to be dropped.

I do understand that there are some things that are going to pull people out of the story because they obviously wouldn't have existed in that world (French sleeves?) but you also have to accept that the more you know about the etymology of various words and aspects of English, the wider that net is going to be until the language becomes practically unusable.

Westeros isn't Earth. English, in any form, would not have developed there because it lacks the historical context that the language developed in in our history. Given that, there is no "realistic" version of English that could be used for the time period, and most people who are reading this aren't going to notice the etymology of most words used in the text, and it's far more work than it is worth trying to write around the expectations of a handful of people who might toward an ultimate goal of stripping the text of words that meet what is an arbitrary standard of unrealistic use anyway.

Terry Pratchett has a pretty good response to this topic floating around somewhere if I have time to go dig it up later.

Edit: Or, for example, "pink" couldn't be a Bolton color as that word wasn't coined until well after the Medieval period. There's really just no way to be seriously consistent about this in a fictional setting without the writing suffering and those of us who are more aware of word etymologies just kind of need to learn to let it go.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

I can't add spoiler tags. So more on this when I get home, but Euron (actually Victarian) is headed off to fetch Dany? Whoa. I think that might explain something that was baffling last season.

It's so difficult to compare shoe Cersei and book Cersei. They ended up as such different characterizations. More on that post Monday when I can tag season five comparisons.

In fact, I was bored spotless through much of (stillVictaria instead of) Euron's chapter, until the very end. I think the house of the undying just took some revenge on Dany.

Edited November 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Think your confusing Euron with Victarion ! ^^

 

It was a Victarion chapter and it's Victarion that will go and try to fetch Dany ! ;)

 

Well, personally, I enjoyed that chapter for Euron's mad-as-always speeches, I'm repeating myself here, but I love his rock star attitude, for me, the alchemy of the character works (as opposite to Daario where the same kind of alchemy fails... or doesnt work with the same efficiency). 

[magdalene]

I have always felt that if Jaime could manage to live to old age he might make a very wise adviser to somebody powerful, yes. Of course I know this is not likely to happen but still I had these thoughts reading AFFC.

[ElizaD]

Has the whole "three and ten" thing only been there from book 4 and onward? I could have sworn it had been there all along, but maybe I'm just used to it by now.

 

Someone made charts that show how often those words (and some of the unpopular expressions, like "much and more" and "little and less") appear in the books and they do show up pretty much out of nowhere in book 4. They weren't part of GRRM's writing from the beginning and that makes them stand out and feel like a sudden burst of faux-medievality, IMO, like he discovered this new thing that's so cool he just has to use it a ton to make up for time lost.

 

Cersei is hilarious in the book, though not on the show. Her pride in her horrible decisions has this trainwreck quality that I love. A lot of the time ASOIAF feels like you're waiting for something terrible to happen to the POV: you don't yet know what it is this time, but something they've done will end up screwing them over. Cersei's chapters are a strange kind of relief: you can see just how she's screwing things up.

[Terra Nova]

@ Delta1212:

Sure, you have a point, and of course being English completely contaminated by French (damn that William the Conqueror, what a bastard ;) ) it is especially difficult not to use 'foreign' words, but those I listed are, in my opinion, more jarring than others (as you said, the misheard 'fringed sleeves' caused a lot of debate for show fans, so it's not even that unusual for someone to pick up such anachronisms), and show how the editing for Feast was indeed sloppier than in previous books: I can only imagine that after years of waiting and countless rewriting they all wanted to just throw the book on the shelves as soon as possible. Interestingly enough, none of these blunders appear in Dance ^^ Let's see what happens with Winds, since it appears the first complete version of the book was submitted to the editor a couple of weeks ago (since it's clear that Martin wants the book out before April).

 

 

@Alayne Stone:

Just a quick search in the first three books:

In Game of Thrones: 'Dany was thirteen, old enough'. 'Jon looked at her with all his fourteen-years-old wisdom'. 'You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-years-old girl'

Clash: 'My nehpew is thirteen years old today'.'She felt older than her fourteen years'.

Storm: 'Jojen Reed was thirteen, only four years older than Bran'. 'I was oh, fourteen, fifteen, thereabouts'

 

The 'hour of X' was also introduced only in Feast, and until now we only got most of the night hours, daylight hours are still unnamed.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Terra Nova

[John Potts]

Further speculation on who might end up on the throne (well, part 3 of my previous speculations!):

One reason I like the idea of Gendry on the Throne is that it is so full of dramatic irony: in the show, he splits from Arya because he's "too common" to be with Arya, so it would be ironic if he turns out to be "too noble" (as King) to marry a "Nobody" like Arya (even more so if he ends up married to Queen of the North, Sansa). It would also be a subversion of expectations if the "Unknown heir becomes King" trope is fulfilled by Gendry and not Jon Snow.

I admit this is mostly me "tossing ideas in the air and seeing if they fly" rather than anything I think is likely to occur, but the more I think about it, the more I think, "Actually, that could work!" (though YMMV)

[stillshimpy]

Thank you, Triskan! I was confusing the two and have edited accordingly. I appreciate the assist :-)

Well, the change in language usage stood out to me also, however since it first appears in a Brienne chapter I put it down to an affectation of hers (at least initially) . Actually "affectation" is the wrong word, I thought it evidence of how painfully awkward she is around other people. So the overly formalized word usage struck me as being like Pod's stammer.

As the book goes on it becomes clear that Martin undertook a style change. In terms of other language , I feel for you on this, Terra Nova, but I have assumed that much like our world, there is bleed over. In my head I always think of Bravos as either being based on Italy or Greece and assign some of the awkward writing elbows of the story to the same thing that happens here. I use the words genre and cliche quite often, I never think of them as being French (although I have studied both French and Spanish and discovered that mastering other languages was going to elude me entirely ) . We all have our peeves though.

Cersei's chapters are fun and they are often so groan worthy. She just thinks she's so clever and it's obvious (pretty much from space) that the High Sparrow has herded her into the slaughter run with next to no effort.

On that I wanted to ask: he is not the same Septon that Brienne and Pod met, is he? The one that traveled from village to village. That character just existed to illustrate "this world does have itinerate ministers, right?

Clearly Jaime is eventually doomed. He's achieving personal and emotional expansion and progress. In the Game of Thrones world you grow, you go.

[Terra Nova]

Yeah, it's a peeve of mine ^^' It also surprises me how the first time I read the last two books I barely noticed it. But it's a minor flaw, considering the scope of these books and how much work Martin puts into them ^^

 

I think Martin admitted Braavos is based on Venice, and anyway most of the Free Cities seem to have some Maritime Republics quality to them; they also seem well into some Essosi Renaissance, considering the fashion, the habits, the general atmosphere.

 

As for the Septon Brienne met in her first chapter, I don't remember if it's explicitly stated he becomes the High Septon, but I think it's strongly implied.

 

ETA: Also, in the Reaver chapter we hear how the Crow's Eye threw his dragon egg in the sea, during one of his temper tantrums. Many fans speculate that the egg was actually used as payment to the Faceless Men for Balon's life. Also, I love how the Reader, just by asking if Euron really went to Valyria, manages to send him scurrying away XD

Edited November 29, 2015 by Terra Nova

[bobbybuilderton]

What could possibly go wrong with that?

Cersei has zero awareness that she just got played by the High Sparrow, someone far shrewder than she is. A militarized arm of the church? What could possibly go wrong there too?

I've seen this sentiment elsewhere and I need it explained to me. The idea that she got "played." I always read it as she is just an idiot and made a stupid choice and he took advantage of it. To me, that doesn't read as "being played" because she wasn't manipulated at all. There was no subterfuge, no smoke and mirrors, no murky situation to navigate. She had a problem to deal with, she made a choice, that choice was dumb. The idea that the septon is playing anyone seemed strange to me when I first read it. So...yeah. anyone care to explain?

[Delta1212]

I've seen this sentiment elsewhere and I need it explained to me. The idea that she got "played." I always read it as she is just an idiot and made a stupid choice and he took advantage of it. To me, that doesn't read as "being played" because she wasn't manipulated at all. There was no subterfuge, no smoke and mirrors, no murky situation to navigate. She had a problem to deal with, she made a choice, that choice was dumb. The idea that the septon is playing anyone seemed strange to me when I first read it. So...yeah. anyone care to explain?

Well, I guess it depends on whether you consider asking someone for something that you know it would be stupid on their part to give you and them agreeing with no further prodding to be "playing" them or not.

[bobbybuilderton]

Well, I guess it depends on whether you consider asking someone for something that you know it would be stupid on their part to give you and them agreeing with no further prodding to be "playing" them.

That's the thing though, he didn't ask her for it. She brought it up when he was asking the crown to defend them. He didn't get her to do anything, which is why I don't consider her being played. She's just a moron. 

[bobbybuilderton]

To clarify, I'm not saying it's impossible he is manipulating people to get what he wants. I just am not sure what the evidence is for the impression that he is.

[Delta1212]

To clarify, I'm not saying it's impossible he is manipulating people to get what he wants. I just am not sure what the evidence is for the impression that he is.

I mean, I suppose it's a fair point. She does basically set, bait and spring her own trap every step of the way while her adversaries just kind of watch.

[John Potts]

I tend to feel Cersei is out of her depth and tries to respond by "solving" one a problem she can actually fix (without considering what effect that has on anything else). Going "We're in massive debt - if I  could get that down, that'd be something!" and as a result she deals with the church (for a real life analogy, it's like rolling your debts into one - it might actually reduce your payments, but it doesn't actually solve the problem). She would not be the first politician to confront problems by going "We need to do something: this is something: Therefore we should do it!" which is both short-sighted and logically flawed (I could name a few real world politicians here, but I will refrain from doing so!)

[WindyNights]

I can't add spoiler tags. So more on this when I get home, but Euron (actually Victarian) is headed off to fetch Dany? Whoa. I think that might explain something that was baffling last season.

It's so difficult to compare shoe Cersei and book Cersei. They ended up as such different characterizations. More on that post Monday when I can tag season five comparisons.

In fact, I was bored spotless through much of (stillVictaria instead of) Euron's chapter, until the very end. I think the house of the undying just took some revenge on Dany.

My favorite part of that chapter is the parallel between Bran and Euron.

Euron's basically an evil, iron born Bran Stark.

“When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,” he announced. “When I woke, I couldn’t... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?”

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. “What do you mean?”

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. “Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?"

It's also interesting to note that like Bran, he's also associated with crows and ravens. His sigil is two crows surrounding a crow's eye.

Edited November 29, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Well he fairly clearly did lay the trap and wait for her. He was withholding the High Septon's blessing for Tommen's reign. He wasn't praying about it as he referenced other High Septon's doing. He wasn't fasting. Instead he piled parts of rotting corpses outside, put a guard on the door and waited.

Doesn't strike me as an accident. Cersei is there to ask what the hold up is. He refers to rituals around blessing a new King, not single one of which he is engaging in. He's sold the crown her father gave the order and just hanging out with his big pile o' murdered holy people and not blessing Tommen. He essentially doesn't need to do anything other than that to set a trap for her.

It's a pretty good chess move on his part. He knows the king needs his blessing to be excepted by the people.

Edited November 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ImpinAintEasy]

Brienne did meet the eventual High Sparrow in one of her first chapters, as he was with a group traveling to King's Landing while Brienne was just leaving. He is not the wandering Septon that she and Pod met in her last chapter, though. That is Septon Meribald. There is a crackpot theory about the High Sparrow's identity, but I think the show has pretty much shot that down with who they cast to play the character, specifically an actor as old as Jonathon Pryce. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[bobbybuilderton]

Well he fairly clearly did lay the trap and wait for her. He was withholding the High Septon's blessing for Tommen's reign. He wasn't praying about it as he referenced other High Septon's doing. He wasn't fasting. Instead he piled parts of rotting corpses outside, put a guard on the door and waited.

Doesn't strike me as an accident. Cersei is there to ask what the hold up is. He refers to rituals around blessing a new King, not single one of which he is engaging in. He's sold the crown her father gave the order and just hanging out with his big pile o' murdered holy people and not blessing Tommen. He essentially doesn't need to do anything other than that to set a trap for her.

It's a pretty good chess move on his part. He knows the king needs his blessing to be excepted by the people.

It's not clear at all that he laid a trap for her. It's clear that there is an agreement on terms between the crown and the faith and those terms are not being met by the crown. As a result of that, the faith isn't holding up their end and is instead focusing on things that matter to them (I'm guessing blessing the king who isn't protecting them and who has his legitimacy called into question isn't high on that list). There aren't rotting corpses outside, there are bones. Where are you getting the conclusion that he isn't praying or fasting? This is what I mean bynot understanding the assumption that he's even bothering trying to "play" anyone. I don't see textual support for it. It seems to be something people would like to be true, rather than what the story actually indicates. Withholding tommen's blessing and accepting cersei's offer are not evidence enough, as he has plenty reason to not be over eager to bless him--reasons he outlines in the chapter-- and he doesn't even realize immediately that cersei is offering to give them the faith militant. He was going to insist that they had been disbanded.

[stillshimpy]

Because he's scrubbing a floor when she meets with him, mentions both praying and fasting in the "this is what others did for other kings" and makes no mention of doing that himself. Also, crows are mentioned as feeding upon the rotting flesh of the heads outside, which they could not do if they were just bones.

So what is it that you think he was doing? Just chill-axing with his fellow sparrows ....with an armed guard guarding the door for...?

It's cool that you disagree but that seems clear to me and I suspect is why others reference a trap as well as playing her.

Edited November 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

The HS was the first to mention that the law required the Faith to lay down their swords and rely on the crown for protection. He said he'd be unable to anoint Tommen if the young king was unable to protect septs and their servants. The HS dropped the hint and Cersei fell for it. Yes, it's possible to read it as a happy opportunity for the HS, but my thought is that by surrounding herself with incompetents, Cersei has no idea when someone smarter than she is is manipulating her.

And we certainly see in her next chapter that the HS is way ahead of her in intellect.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Haleth

[Drunken Grumkin]

The HS may well have been angling in that direction, by pressing for specifics about how Tommen would defend them -- but the HS mentioning the law was in response to Cersei saying, "Your sparrows have clubs and axes. Let them defend themselves."  How else could he respond?

[stillshimpy]

Didn't the Crown also owe the church (would that be sept?) an assload of gold? So there are other reasons the High Sparrow would be expecting a visit, right? Absence of the tribute would be another reason he'd pretty much know Cersei would show up to negotiate something with him, I mean, unless I am misjudging the situation and the man's intent was pure, but that just reeked of a power play, including not rising from the floor. It's not quite ye olde Art of War, but disconcerting your opponent is a tactic.

Of course, those two things are not mutually exclusive: he could be entirely sincere in his faith and concern for the people....and maneuvering Cersei to get the crown out of power because the Lannisters so obviously cared nothing for the actual people.

But the Sparrows did burst in on the election process and demand Big Bird's elevation... so that also bespeaks an active plan on his part that appealed to his fellows. I'm guessing a bid for a Theocracy. Big Bird must know the fate of his predecessor, the corruption of the Lannisters and nothing says "fuck your hold over the church" like selling gifts from it.

Also, I have pretty much all damned day traveling tomorrow with read time, so I am hoping to find out if I am right that Jaime will eventually face Stonestark (heart?) in some capacity. That's a narrative choice that would make sense , as Freeing Jaime is part of what led to her creation.

Edited November 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

I loved Jaime's recent chapter too. Golden Hand the Just, eh? I never thought I would say this but poor Jamie. Pria's fate was at Utterly disturbing, and so is the Hound at present. I can only hope those rumors are greatly exaggerated. I am assuming at present that they are,and it is just another case of rumor wildly expanding fact. Jaime with cottingham surprised me too , is that the same version of Brienne's memory? It seemed quite different. Was his pride pricked, am I misremembering, or was her memory kinder?

We don't get the full story of Connington and Brienne in her chapters, but her memory is definitely not kinder. It's clear he wronged her in some way, only the details are missing until he tells Jaime. (Jaime using his golden hand to smack asshole(s) is one of my favorite parts of his character development tbh.)

Brienne did meet the eventual High Sparrow in one of her first chapters, as he was with a group traveling to King's Landing while Brienne was just leaving. He is not the wandering Septon that she and Pod met in her last chapter, though. That is Septon Meribald.

Well, it's not confirmed the Sparrow she met at the start of her journey was the High Sparrow, but the physical descriptions are very similar, which is usually a sign in these books. Edited November 30, 2015 by Lady S.

[Lavignac]

Didn't the Crown also owe the church (would that be sept?)

Actually, I believe they would refer to the organization as The Faith. This line of thought makes me intrigued to see whether they'll show the Starry Sept in season 6, and what architectural style they would adopt for all of Oldtown.

[Terra Nova]

I don't think the High Septon approached the meeting with the specific goal of rearming the Faith. Surely, he was withholding Tommen's blessing because he wanted something in return for that. And the display of the 'holy bones' and the ragtag mob encamped outside the Sept was mostly just for forcing the hand of the Throne in doing something, specifically going to him for talking (which in itself is a display of power, btw). But I think he 'only' wanted the Throne to resume its duty, i.e. protecting the Faith. Not even in his wildest dreams could he foresee that the Queen was about to give him permission of reforming an armed branch of the Faith.

 

Apart from the zealotry, this sparrows movement is a response to the horror of war in the Riverlands, born from the smallfolk as some sort of plea for people in power to 'do something', so asking for protection and escorts is still within the original scope of these sparrows. But now they got more power than they could ever imagine (well, this pious Septon anyway), so a shift in priorities is very possible.

 

I think the show did a good job in this regard, since for the sake of compression they couldn'y depict the whole stalled election of the new Septon: by making Cersei appoint the Sparrow (I know, it's not for the Throne to decide, but it's a minor change I don't mind) they also retained her blunder, which leads to an armed Faith. And people can still speculate whether the Sparrow played her from the beginning or if it's more of a case of (un)happy coincidences.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

I don't think the High Septon approached the meeting with the specific goal of rearming the Faith. Surely, he was withholding Tommen's blessing because he wanted something in return for that. And the display of the 'holy bones' and the ragtag mob encamped outside the Sept was mostly just for forcing the hand of the Throne in doing something, specifically going to him for talking (which in itself is a display of power, btw). But I think he 'only' wanted the Throne to resume its duty, i.e. protecting the Faith. Not even in his wildest dream could he foresee that the Queen was about to give him permission of reforming an armed branch of the Faith.

 

I'm inclined to this line of reasoning as well. The High Sparrow clearly wanted something, but never in his wildest dreams could he have been expecting a reinstallment of the Faith Militant.

 

It's actually one of the few times show Cersei is dumber than her book counterpart. Book Cersei at least got a cancelled debt and a blessing for Tommen, whilst show Cersei got nothing in exchange (IIRC). I actually think that show Cersei would be too smart to do that, and that this is an example of a character who is written differently but now needs to do what their book counterpart does, even though it doesn't fit with the new character. I don't mind the show changing characters or events, but I wish that they'd have the guts to stick with their decisions and go with the resulting plot changes.

 

One example of this was the character of Shae. They changed the story to one of genuine love, which is fine, and made Shae very protective of Sansa. That aspect I really liked, because we see so few genuinely nice relationships between women on the show. But in season 4, they needed her to revert to doing her book plot, which rather messed with her characterisation. I never bought that she would believe Tyrion's 'you're a whore speech', I didn't buy her testifying against Tyrion and Sansa, and I definitely didn't buy that she'd sleep with Tywin and try to murder Tyrion. I think instead that they should have had Tyrion's refusal to send Shae away result in her death. I think Shae should have been 'coerced' into testifying against Tyrion and Tyrion should have noticed the evidence of the coersion, becoming outraged and thus demanding a Trial by Combat. Then when Oberyn loses and Jaime comes to rescue Tyrion, Jaime could inform him that Tywin has hanged Shae. This would drive Tyrion into the rage necessary to risk his escape and confront Tywin. And if the show wanted to have Tyrion angry with Jaime, he could have asked Jaime to protect her in the scene they had together after Tyrion demands TbC.

 

Maybe the above isn't as shocking as the book counterpart, but I definitely think it, or something like it, would fit the characterisation of show Tyrion and show Shae better. As I said, I don't mind the show changing characters but they need to deal better with the resulting fallout and stick with their decisions.

[mac123x]

I don't think the High Septon approached the meeting with the specific goal of rearming the Faith. Surely, he was withholding Tommen's blessing because he wanted something in return for that. And the display of the 'holy bones' and the ragtag mob encamped outside the Sept was mostly just for forcing the hand of the Throne in doing something, specifically going to him for talking (which in itself is a display of power, btw). But I think he 'only' wanted the Throne to resume its duty, i.e. protecting the Faith. Not even in his wildest dream could he foresee that the Queen was about to give him permission of reforming an armed branch of the Faith.

 

That's my take as well.  He may not have set the situation up with reforming the Faith Militant as is goal, but when he met Cercei and determined that she could be manipulated, he decided to go for it right then.  Speed chess rather than a long term manipulation.

[stillshimpy]

Those are good points and make a lot of sense. I can agree with the idea that Big Bird was actually manipulating Cersei by withholding the blessing and likely had specific things he would require, including protection of/justice for the faithful dead (you don't stack rotting body parts in places unless attention to something is the goal - that was a naked cry for justice) but that in his wildest dreams he didn't think it would be that successful.

Due in part to how insanely stupid it was. I love how there is now a fucking holy war in the offing, on top of all else. Sucks to be you, 7 kingdoms, yea, verily yea.

The show did make for too many character inconsistencies when they couldn't fully commit to their own decisions. Okay, I figured out how to do tags, but it is sooooo laborious I am only doing it for something I consider a big ass deal

wow, does it ever piss me off that they apparently ditched the entire road trip with Tywin's bones in favor of Bronn and Jamie reenacting a Bob Hope/Bing Crosby movie . Seriously, do they hate the actor or the character? Or is it because they opted out of Stonestark? I am assuming it is the latter.

Shae's arc in the show was such a muddled affair , it was nearly senseless. Why not just have her turn on Tyrion and leave that entire Sansa business alone? A well-placed "I do not know " when it comes to Shae would have helped a lot.

[Terra Nova]

This Septon, to quote

next book

'may seem simple, but he's not without a certain low cunning'. He knew he had power over the Crown and was ready to use it to extort whathever possible advantage for the Faith. The very fact that his pious companions forced him to the Council shows how these Sparrows are not above getting their hands dirty for the perceived greater good.

 

I can imagine that Show!Cersei was already plotting something against Margaery that involved the Faith, but if that's what the writers went for it came out extremely convoluted; what's worse is that they already set the problems with the Iron Bank, and in the fourth season they even invented a scene were it was revealed that Lannisters' mines were basically spent. Such deviation would have provided all the reasons for Cersei to accept such a meager deal with the Sparrow, if that meant to reduce the Crown's debt.

 

@WSmith84:

I totally agree, and even wrote something similar wrt Tyrion, Shae and Jaime several pages ago:

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/27813-climbing-the-spitball-wall-an-unsullieds-take-on-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-now-reading-a-feast-for-crows/?p=1661703

 

@Shimpy:

the problem is that, whatever the reason they decided to just cancel the Riverlands from the show after the Red Wedding, even the Dornish arc they gave Jaime wouldn't have necessary meant that the same book development for Jaime wasn't possible: I remember great scenes in the first season, invented ones even, that truly did wonders for character development; I think about the last conversation between Cersei and Bob, or Viserys in the bathtub with Doreah, or even his two scenes after Dany eats the stallion's heart and when he tries to get away with the eggs. Beautiful stuff that didn't leave me wanting for inner monologues. Last season's Jaime seemed completely out of his depths as a character (I'm not even talking about the Dornish plot per se).

Edited November 30, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

@ Terra Nova

Any of the ideas proposed by you would probably have worked better than the show sticking to the books. I think, sometimes, the showrunners focus more on what is shocking and 'makes good TV' (urgh) than what best suits the characterisations.

 

I think that the writers have never really had a good grasp on Jaime as a character, sadly. The really weird thing in season 2, where he killed his cousin for no reason, is a good indicator of that. I thought that they did a decent job in season 3, but after he got back to King's Landing, his character development just floundered. Like they weren't quite sure what to do with him. I find it impossible to try and predict what show Jaime will do, because he seems to have no constant characterisation.

 

I really miss loving this show. I'm hoping that season 6 can bring me back to really enjoying it again, but I just don't think it can.

[Terra Nova]

I just can't wait for Shimpy to read

last chapter of Jaime, when he burns the letter. Bam! Such a powerful ending to a mostly internal arc *evil laugh of anticipation*

[bobbybuilderton]

I just can't wait for Shimpy to read

last chapter of Jaime, when he burns the letter. Bam! Such a powerful ending to a mostly internal arc *evil laugh of anticipation*

Not to mention the complete opposite of the character in the show

[ImpinAintEasy]

Season 6 spoilers:

I never would have guessed that so much of AFFC(Euron & Kingsmoot/Jaime and the siege of Riverrun/Oldtown/Septon Elder Brother & The Hound),  even if most of it is altered, would be pushed back to season 6, while most of season 5 was inspired by ADWD. It still doesn't make up for the mistakes of season 5, and to an extent season 4(I still really liked that season), but I am hoping they will get Jaime back on track, and finally have him split from Cersei.

 

I guess I'm in the minority in that, outside of Jaime killing his cousin, I thought he was handled very well in the first 3 seasons, and was played by an actor who closely resembled book Jaime in my mind. However, since then he has been one of the most poorly handled characters.

I really do think it boils down to the show cutting Stoneheart. The decision was made, in my opinion, for one sole reason, and that was to make Jon's resurrection the first and only major character resurrection in the show. That's fine and all, but it probably ruined two other characters' stories.

Edited November 30, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[stillshimpy]

Okay it looks like one of my posts didn't take. At the risk of repeating myself, I thought it was about time that Jaime learned that Tyrion was telling the truth about Cersei and Lancel. I wonder if that'll change his mind about Tyrion?

Also it seems all but inevitable that Jaime has to deal with Stonestark and it sounds like it will be gruesome. Lancel's piety makes more sense in the context of being ashamed to have killed the King. Show Lancel's motivation was left very hazy.

So the Hound is truly dead and buried? Interesting. Who is wearing his helmet and committing such atrocities? Also, I am more than a little confused by what Stonestark 's band is doing. Why would they be that brutal to the small folk? They are victims in all of this. I know in war that the real victims tend to be civilians, but this stuff is shocking as can be. Eating people alive? Holy carp and little fishes.

Lara's has just exited stage Dragonstone. Presumably to any of a number of terrible fates. Really different fates from book to series, I don't see any way to marry the two threads. The Shoe and book have really parted company.

Cersei managed to get even creepier in the violation department, and whereas I am glad Bronn lived (eh, sort of... Yet another different character from Book to series) Cersei needs to quit given Qyburn women to do whatever deeply disturbing work he is up to in the dungeons. Of all the things for the show to decide to preserve, Mountainstein would have rated about last on my list of things to hope to see.

Edited November 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Regarding Loras, I'm sure you can see now why bookwalkers were so angered by his show characterization. His sexuality was irrelevant. He was an honorable and highly skilled knight who loved his family and his king. Tommen adored him. Being injured while laying siege to Dragonstone on behalf of the crown was a far more noble fate than being arrested for homosexuality.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

Oh I completely get why you all would have been livid. I also begin to understand Jaime's popularity, that last chapter with his Aunt and cousin was hilarious as well as fascinating. Poor Edmure also, that was all just heartbreaking.

And I have more to say, but I have just reached the Cat chapter and startled my seat,ate with an 'oh shit! Sorry!' I didn't expect a pov chapter for her. I have just enough time in the air left to finish it.

I'm actually scared.U

Eta: oh poo, I forgot that Is actually Arya. Okay.

Edited November 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Alayne Stone]

I love Gemma Lannister. Another minor character I miss from the show, though I'm not the least bit surprised she was cut.

 

Show Loras is just ... ugh. I can't even comment on it. What they did to that character is repulsive to me.

 

I think you're at the part of the book where things start to really pick up, so keep readin' on. :D

 

BTW, folks ... I finally got The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. The Hedge Knight is indeed such a wonderful light read. I can see why everyone loves Ser Duncan the Tall so much now. :)

[Triskan]

Hahaha, I just spent the last 20 minutes reading the summaries of the chapters ahead (and yeah, a wiki being a wiki, I opened quite a dozen tabs, so all in all it was quite the reading), and indeed, things are definitly ramping up from now on.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Triskan

[magdalene]

Gemma Lannister. I love that lady.  She is pretty astute and has everybody's number. Last season grumble: 

I was grinding my teeth through the stupid Jaime in Dorne plot while going "for this dreck you cut the Jaime Riverlands arc..."

 

One reason that whole Jaime cousin killing thing on the show has always bothered me so much is because the books show us Jaime dealing with Lancel - who he has reason to loathe.  Bleh. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by magdalene

[ImpinAintEasy]

So, you think Sandor is dead, Shimpy? Hmm, if you give a quick re-read of that Brienne chapter, paying close attention to the description of every person Brienne meets on the Quiet Isle, and to her last conversation with the Elder Brother, you may come to a different conclusion.

[WSmith84]

I think Jaime was handled OK in season 1 and 2, and pretty well in 3. But after that, they didn't seem to know what to do with him. His Dornish adventure was laughable. I particularly enjoyed his conversation with Bronn where Jaime (and the writers) tried to justify Jaime going, and failed spectacularly.

[Alayne Stone]

I still thought Jaime was handled well in season 3 too. That bathtub scene still gives me chills and is the reason I am convinced Nicolaj actually did read the books at some point. He nailed that scene.

[Avaleigh]

Since Genna Lannister has come up, even though the body isn't right, in my head she'd have been played Lindsay Duncan. I would have loved scenes of her with Charles Dance, Diana Rigg, and NCW.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so after consulting with Mya (and my braindeadedness...that is soooooo a word) ....the gravedigging bro' is Sandor?  That's awesome.  

 

And confusing as fuck, book.  However, it does make sense with Speaker of the Place (Elder Fudd, or whatever, I'm braindead...Southwest nonstop to hell...with Boo Radley hacking up a lung and incidental body parts in the seat ahead of me). 

 

So that's awesome. 

 

Arya blinded for killing Deserter Daeron as is the Stark way is much better than that gore fest the show visited upon my (beleaguered) brain. 

 

I'm still really confused as to how the heck everyone believes the....man....I can't even think of a word bad enough, so I shall just say, that terrible man perpetrating heinous crimes of unfathomable proportions ...is the Hound.  Sure, has his helmet, but ....he's doing all this stuff with a helmet on?  Who is he?  If he wasn't evil incarnate with a weird fetish for ....I lack the language skills for that right now....friend of Craster, shall we say?   

 

Okay, must go collapse in heap for at least 8 hours.  After disinfecting self. 

[Ashara Payne]

I thought NCW was so funny when, asked if he'd read the books, he replied "Like Maisie, my mum read them....". He seems fun.

[Lavignac]

I really liked Brienne's first clue, the incongruous huge warhorse in the "Mont-Saint-Michel"-like monastery... You're now ready for another favourite chapter of fan speculation, Clegane fate to come...

I also much preferred Cat o'the Canals VS Daeron, than the show's cartoon-like gore-fest with Meryn Trant. Poetic justice in the show just hits you in the face, unsubtle; poetic justice in the books is more... Poetic!