Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Terra Nova]

@Shimpy:

 

The World of Ice and Fire, the companion book about the lore and the history of Westeros goes into more details with regard to the relationship between Aerys and his poor sister and... cartloads of yikes. Fan often speculate about this or that Targaryen, if he is truly mad or just a tad eccentric, and sometimes it's really unclear, but Aerys was a lunatic, period.

[Alayne Stone]

They've reduced Kevan to just being a kind of misogynistic a-hole in the show. I like him much more in the books. He's another Lannister who proves they aren't all wholly cray or evil.

 

If I'm not mistaken, that's Lannister outlaws who are running around pretending to be The Hound/Brotherhood Without Banners, right? Tee hee. Little does Shimpy know.

 

And Jaime has been in love with his sister his whole life and under the misconception that she's been just as faithful to him as he has her (remember his dig at Catelyn for being more honorable to Cersei than Ned had been to her before she released him?) That's not something he can just abandon right away, but this is actually where his arc starts to become more interesting to me.

[Mya Stone]

They've reduced Kevan to just being a kind of misogynistic a-hole in the show. I like him much more in the books. He's another Lannister who proves they aren't all wholly cray or evil.

If I'm not mistaken, that's Lannister outlaws who are running around pretending to be The Hound/Brotherhood Without Banners, right? Tee hee. Little does Shimpy know.

And Jaime has been in love with his sister his whole life and under the misconception that she's been just as faithful to him as he has her (remember his dig at Catelyn for being more honorable to Cersei than Ned had been to her before she released him?) That's not something he can just abandon right away, but this is actually where his arc starts to become more interesting to me.

I believe (not for shimpy...yet)

that it's Rorge and Biter, and the disbanded remaining Bloody Mummers involved in the Saltpans mishaps.

[ImpinAintEasy]

The way Kevan refers to Cersei as 'woman' was a pretty misogynistic statement in the books too. But when he isn't featured much on the show, it just stands out more. 

 

Rorge has the Hound's helmet, and he and Biter are the ones terrorizing Saltpans. I'm a bit confused that Shimpy would think the Hound and Beric would be so brutal.

[WindyNights]

Kevan is an asshole still. He still gave orders to ravage the Riverlands and thinks his brother was justified in everything he did and it's

hinted at especially in the epilogue that he was the one that suggested the Walk of Shame to get her out but also to teach her her place for sleeping with Lancel, passing the Wardenship to someone else and for throwing wine at his face.

[stillshimpy]

Oh boy, so another Cersei chapter down. It's absolutely horrifying how bad she is at absolutely every aspect of ruling. There was the passage about Pycelle talking about the silent sisters removing bowels, stuffing with salts etc, etc. Draining Tywin's fluids, etc. and that's still not embalming (although, Jaime talks about his eyes sinking, so clearly they left parts in there that could decay. But mostly, yup, a corpse that isn't embalmed (which involves pumping in a preservative solution) will just decompose and can't be kept hanging around in a damp atmosphere for a week.

So Cersei pretty clearly had the Septon killed. Interesting to see how that works out for her in the book since there are Sparrows aplenty, apparently. The poor dwarf who was kind to Brienne met his sad (if predictable) fate.

Nice that she appointed Boo Radley, the less charismatic version, as Hand. She's just so ill-suited to the entire business, it's actually a little bit difficult to get through her delusional chapters. Purposefully ticking off the Iron Bank? Oh sure. Nothing could go wrong with that *facepalm*.

Hopefully Margaery will have the wits to not be taken in and easily framed for treason. Boo Margaery really is just a name, so I can't say for certain whether or not she'll have the wits to avoid the framing.

Oy. Another Iron Islander chapter to follow this? ETA: and then because I was trying to work up the will to just power through it, I checked what chapter is beyond that. More Iron born. Two chapters in a row of iron born? Oh good god. One aspect of Feast that I am not digging is the back-to-back POVs in the same locations. Jaime and Cersei's chapters are at least interesting, even if Cersei's tend to be like watching a slow motion train wreck.

But great....lots of time with the Ironborn. I think it's time for me to go work out instead.

Edited November 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Kevan is Tywin's nice little lapdog. He's exactly what a second son should be, from an utilitarian point of view: a follower blindly obeying what his big bro says. He can be a decent person, but he still followed Tywin's order without esitation. Also, he's quite misogynistic, since Cersei is the current Lady of the Rock and his liege Lady, and he rudely opposes her in all their interactions thus far. Can you even picture Kevan saying 'no' to Tywin?

 

@ImpinAintEasy

I think it's the long-lasting effect of the show. Tv!Sandor is quite an honorless, hypocritical a**hole, not above stealing from innocent farmers and knocking poor peasants unconscious. Tv!Broderhood is a bunch of honorless thugs. These guys are not above some murpillaping (murder- + pillage- + raping, courtes of Westeros.org)

Edited November 9, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

What Is dead may never die! You can do this, Shimpy. Only one of the chapters is Dumbhair's POV, and it is a pretty eventful one. 

[Haleth]

Yeah, that Cersei chapter is painful. Literally every thought in her head is wrong. Kevan has his faults but he and Jaime should have forced Cersei off the Iron Throne before she could inflict any more harm.

@ shimpy, I'm glad you finally learned about the baby switch since you were worried for Mance's baby a couple pages back. Jon was smart enough to send Baby Rayder away secretly. Mel would have no use for Baby Crastor.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Haleth

[Triskan]

Well, I for one really like the next two Iron Born chapters ! 

 

And that's even after disliking their first two at first read ! But the second one ahead of you especially is for me among the top chapters of Feast ! ;)

Edited November 9, 2015 by Triskan

[stillshimpy]

Good to know, thank you all for the encouragement :-) Okay, to the showers and then the book.

Edited November 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

Terra Nova - how DOES that work with Cersei, Kevan, and Casterly Rock?  Cersei would be behind Jamie and Tyrion but Jamie can't inherit and Tyrion is in no position to claim the Rock (and Tywin would have denied him anyway).

 

I know that women can inherit, but does Cersei come before Kevan?  For some reason, I think he is Lord of Casterly Rock now but I could be wrong. And while she is the Queen Regent temporarily - she is so poorly suited for it, I can't blame anyone for trying to wrestle power away from her.  Kevan might be a sexist big, but he isn't wrong to disrespect Cersei and try to supplant her.

[Delta1212]

Kevin tells her that she's the Lady of Casterly Rock now in one of the previous Cersei chapters.

[WindyNights]

Terra Nova - how DOES that work with Cersei, Kevan, and Casterly Rock? Cersei would be behind Jamie and Tyrion but Jamie can't inherit and Tyrion is in no position to claim the Rock (and Tywin would have denied him anyway).

I know that women can inherit, but does Cersei come before Kevan? For some reason, I think he is Lord of Casterly Rock now but I could be wrong. And while she is the Queen Regent temporarily - she is so poorly suited for it, I can't blame anyone for trying to wrestle power away from her. Kevan might be a sexist big, but he isn't wrong to disrespect Cersei and try to supplant her.

Cersei is the lady of CR. Only the Iron Throne forbids women from inheriting unless all male claimants are dead.

[mrspidey]

Kevin tells her that she's the Lady of Casterly Rock now in one of the previous Cersei chapters.

Yeah but isn't that just so he can be hand? Which would mean that he's the one calling the shots in the family and being the head cheese of Casterly Rock means nothing at all.

Edited November 9, 2015 by mrspidey

[Delta1212]

Yeah but isn't that just so he can be hand? Which would mean that he's the one calling the shots in the family and being the head cheese of Casterly Rock means nothing at all.

He tells her he'll be Hand if she leaves and goes back to Casterly Rock. Either way, she's still the one who inherited it and is nominally the head of the family.

Whether anyone else respects that is an entirely different issue.

[John Potts]

I'm no fan of the Ironborn (and I've defended Tywin!) but I liked the Kingsmoot. Make of that what you will.

 

Delta1212 Whether anyone else respects that is an entirely different issue.

 

Exactly. Theoretically, Joffrey could give orders to Tywin - but I don't think he'd listen to them.

[Alayne Stone]

Yes, that was one of the big differences from book to show. Cersei is absolutely, 100% inept when it comes to ruling in the books and completely delusional to the fact as well. I understand the character is completely different in the show now, but I just found it to be incredibly confusing because (season 5 spoilers)

to this day I really don’t know if we were supposed to be rooting for Cersei or not. She’s not an inept ruler in the show. She has her moments where she is quite savvy (getting rid of Mace by sending him to Braavos to treat with the very real problem of having a debt to the Iron Bank).

 

Not for Shimpy’s eyes:

Rorge and Bitter, that’s it. I can understand why Shimpy is confused that this is The Hound and Beric’s work. That’s what she’s supposed to be thinking right now, as this was what everyone in Westeros is thinking. People are deliberately disparaging their names and using them as scapegoats for their crimes. And I’ll have to pay more attention to the way Kevan speaks with Cersei when I get to Feast again down the road. I mostly remember his comment that she’s a bad parent, which is completely valid in the books.

 

I think there’s a pretty valid reason for there being back to back Ironborn POVs at the moment, Shimpy. If you can power through it, you may have a little less of that to look forward to for the rest of the book.

 

And I agree with the others. I remember enjoying those chapters immensely, even on my first read through when I tended to just skim through the Iron Born chapters.

 

This will be Shimpy's first official introduction to The Crow's Eye, right? And there's still no Victarion POV yet? Not until he officially sets sail for Dany? Oh man, Shimpy's just going to looooove the fact that there is another Iron Born POV to look forward too

[stillshimpy]

I haven't yet seen the evidence that Kevan is a misogynist. He clearly doesn't like Cersei and thinks she's not fit to rule but that is understandable (in the not liking department) and rather obviously true in the "you shouldn't be ruling" department.

Cersei ends up making Swytf part of the Council in order to try and control Kevan, because that's Kevan's father-in-law and Kevan actually loves his wife (despite Cersei's assessments of her relative lack of charms, in Cersei's estimation.

I did enjoy the Kingsmoot, by the way, which surprised me. Dumbhair was his normal drippy, patriarchal self and his hair turns out to be even more impressively drippy than I thought it was. Victarion sort of lost me by having beaten his wife to death, because Euron impregnated her. So whereas the misogyny was thick upon the ground at the Kingsmoot, at least it had interesting chapters. I'm just not sure that the "I cried as I beat my wife to death and then fed her body to the crabs" is even in the same ballpark as "Kevan refers to Cersei as 'woman' ...which is far as I can tell is because he doesn't like Cersei."

I liked the Dragon's horn and that did intrigue me. So what the hell was the Doom of Valyria? (don't answer if it's yet to come)....was it volcanoes erupting a la Pompeii? That's what I assumed.

Random season five spoiler unrelated to the above

So the Mountain's skull is boiled and ready to be boxed? Does that mean no Mountainstein because that would be AWESOME. I HATED Mountainstein. HATED.

Edited November 10, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

There is one

Victarion chapter in Feast : the Shield Islands !

But that's later !

 

Yeah, I really look forward to her reaction to Euron ! He makes quite a big entrance in the books ! A real showman at the Kingsmoot, truly. That's what I truly enjoy about the character, he's what Daario tries to be but fails. He's the ultimate rock-star of Westeros !

 

And he fascinates me : he claims to have sailed quite the whole world ! If he has a journal of his journeys, damn, that some stuff I'd love to read about ! And the Silence must be stuffed with items and wonders from so many places ! ... Oh, and yeah, he's freaking insane, sure, but I think he must be the biggest traveler alive at that point of the story, so I'd love to know more about him !

 

EDIT : well, shimpy beat me there so removing the spoilers ! ^^

Edited November 10, 2015 by Triskan

[Delta1212]

That's what I truly enjoy about the character, he's what Daario tries to be but fails.

Or does he? ;)

(No, I don't take that theory remotely seriously)

[Triskan]

Ha ! Didnt even think for one sec about that theory writing that bit ! ^^

 

I wonder if that rock-star aspect of both character has fueled it (the theory), never seen that mentioned anywhere ! 

[nksarmi]

If they actually revealed what the Doom of Old Valyra was - I missed it because I assumed it was a volcano ala Pompeii as well. 

 

At this point in the story - the horn pissed me off lol.  I kind of felt the same way about the horn that could take down the Wall.  I don't know why because I certainly don't have issues with magical objects, but for some reason those two bloody horns just annoyed the beejabus out of me.

 

Anyway, without telling you who won the Kingsmoot - can't remember if they revealed that yet or not - I will say that GRRM sucked me into a story I don't really like all that much (the Ironborn) by making sure Asha was involved in it.  If it had just been between Balon's brothers - I might have skipped those chapters entirely.

Edited November 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[ImpinAintEasy]

Euron is the only Greyjoy brother I find interesting. He is probably the most mysterious character in the series. He is a sick and twisted bastard, but he does have style. While he's no Tywin or Roose Bolton, I do find him to be a much more enjoyable villain than Ramsey, and he is a thousand times more dangerous.

I'm really happy he is going to be in the show.

[mac123x]

I liked the politics of the Kingsmoot a lot.  Basically three contenders laying out the choices for the Ironborn:

 

1.   Asha wants peace and some land.  She thinks the Northmen will cede them a couple of coastal areas in exchange for peace and an alliance against the Iron Throne.

 

2.  Victarion is basically "stay the course, don't change horse in mid stream, etc." continue Balon's war and conquer all the North

 

3.  Euron is "screw that, let's take the whole continent and I can do it by getting me some dragons!

 

I thought all three positions were untenable.  Vic's plan is out because Roose Bolton is on his way home with the northern army, and Ramsey (according to Cercei) is moving on Moat Cailyn, so the Ironborn still in the North are living on borrowed time. 

 

Euron's plan is just nuts.  Gloriously nuts, but still nuts. Sure, Aegon conquered Westeros with three dragons, but his were adult full grown dragons whereas we the readers know Dany's are still adolescents.

 

Even Asha's plan has holes in it.  Maybe, just maybe the North will agree to her terms, for now.  But the Ironborn aren't used to Northern winters, so come the next spring, after they've been thoroughly devastated by cold and privation, the Northerns would kick them out. 

 

I can see why they voted for Euron, because while everyone is doomed, his plan at least sounds more in keeping with Ironborn culture.  Plus he's got that politician / cult leader personality type that can work a group of followers into a frenzy. 

 

ETA:  Now that Shimpy has met Euron, time for a flashback to the Ghost of High Heart:

 

The old gods stir and will not let me sleep. I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more.

 

Allegedly Euron was still at sea when Balon took a dive.  Some of the characters suspect he had a hand in it, and they didn't even hear this prophecy.  (I definitely buy that theory)

Edited November 10, 2015 by mac123x

[WindyNights]

The thing that most interested about Aeron's Kingsmoot chapter aside from the kingsmoot was the creaky door hinge. Something about that was just creepy and horrifying.

I think I can guess at why Aeron is so scared of Euron and has to keep affirming his masculinity.

@mac Huh, I just realized that the first two prophecies there has to do with two brothers assassinating their younger and older brother respectively.

Edited November 10, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

The thing that most interested about Aeron's Kingsmoot chapter aside from the kingsmoot was the creaky door hinge. Something about that was just creepy and horrifying.

I think I can guess at why Aeron is so scared of Euron and has to keep affirming his masculinity.

Yeah, I've been picking up some vibes this go around that I either missed last time or simply forgot about.

[Mya Stone]

Yeah I don't think it's ever explicitly spelled out but the creaking hinge has the ominous vibe of repression.

And again, I don't know if it was because I just took a psych nursing exam or not, but I'm thinking Euron sexually abused Dumbhair. (I will never call him Damphair again, shimpy.)

[jellyroll2]

Yeah that door hinge definitely gave off repressed memories and I do believe Euron sexually abused Dumbhair (I love this! Lol). Euron is fucking nuts. He is the most interesting of the brothers but the only iron on I can ever get behind is Asha. The rest are just awful, terrible people lol. FFS Victarion beat his wife to death for sleeping with his brother...yet does nothing to said brother? Can't kill him (well he could but you know) but not even a fight? Misogyny breeds well on the Iron Islands. Ugh

So glad someone reposted the GoHH's prophecy again. Now that shimpy has met Euron and knows about UnCat that prophecy will make much more sense to her.

[Terra Nova]

Ok, some (long-ish) thought about Kevan, considering we are not in his head (but Martin is skillful enough to portray coherent characters without the need for them to be POVs, so I think we could and should draw some conclusion about Kevan, at this point in the books). Also, Ironborns are misogynist, yes, that’s plain to see, but this doesn’t excuse Kevan.

 

 

So, who’s Kevan? The second son of House Lannister and the only one surviving apart from Tywin. This would make him a prominent figure in the Westerland, with incomes, lands, titles, a prestigious marriage. What do we have instead? A meager household knight with no prospect of further career, given his age, married to a woman who clearly is not his peer, his oldest child squired for the King but nothing more. All Kevan’s power and prestige came from Tywin, and all through ‘unofficial’ ways: Kevan is Tywin’s appendix, one of his – albeit more refined – tools to be used when needed, a younger brother who lived his life in Tywin’s shadows, shaped by him. Without him, he would be nothing. He’s not without brain, he’s a decent commander and stuff, but he’s a follower, because Tywin, not the gods, made him so. From Kevan we see nothing but praise for his older brother, a blind acceptance of everything he did, to the point he doesn’t even realize how Tywin wronged him. To put it bluntly, Kevan’s attitude towards Tywin is not one of a younger brother, but the one of a son, still idolizing his parent. Which is pretty funny, considered how Tywin’s true sons resented and feared him, all of them.

 

No surprise that Kevan took also Tywin’s mindset. He just doesn’t see Cersei as the Queen and his liege Lady: she’s a woman, and Tywin’s daughter, SO she has to do as the older man says. And Cersei is a terrible ruler, agreed, but Kevan doesn’t show any real concern for the well-being of the realm, otherwise he would have stayed as Hand and tried to work from the inside and knock some sense into her – and anyway, he knows because of his divine brother how far the power and influence of a Hand go, even when the King/Queen is pretty bad at the job-.

No, he tries to put the woman to her place, to relegate her to Casterly Rock (since he can’t disinherit her or force her to another marriage), out of the way, while he would stay and rule  (‘cause that’s a man’s job!). He’s openly disobeying the Queen and his liege Lady, and when she correctly points out that he has no power of his own, his answer borders on treason, since he immediately starts talking about raising men and having money for paying mercenaries (also, look at the way he answers to Jaime: ‘are you threatening me?’). What gives him the right to act like this, in his mind? The fact that Cersei is a woman, and Tywin’s daughter; and women do as daddy, or the closest older male relative, says. The misogynist angle is all in that ‘woman’ he uses as an insult, and a reminder: you’re a woman, obey the man! He has a reasonable grudge with her, but he opposes her from the start, as if he thinks that a display of verbal brute force will be enough to cower her (because, again, that’s what Tywin does!)

 

That’s exactly Tywin’s mindset: sons and daughters are tools to advance your position and make your House more powerful, not real persons with their own minds, and that’s why as soon as Jaime opposes him Tywin answers with ‘you’re not my son anymore!’. Same for Tyrion on the privy: oh look, a talking walking tool with his own free will! And he doesn’t obey me! It’s clearly not functioning properly! Send it back to the manufacturer!

 

Sorry if it looks disjointed and unclear, it's still early morning here and I'm supposed to be working, ops! ^^'

 

 

ETA: about the inheritance thing: a daughter comes before an uncle. And after Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella would inherit Casterly Rock (I'm pretty sure, had Joffrey lived, that Tommen would have been the Lord of the Rock, with Storm's End going to Stannis). She can of course appoint a castellan and such, but Kevan is pretty far down the line, at the moment.

 

ETA 2: probably it would be more correct to talk about patriarchal, than just misogynist mindset, because even with Victarion I wouldn't say he hated his wife, more than he considered her to be his soiled property, and he had to wash away the taint with bloooood! But then again, Martin himself said that Victarion is 'dumb as a stump' ^^

Edited November 10, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

Allegedly Euron was still at sea when Balon took a dive.  Some of the characters suspect he had a hand in it, and they didn't even hear this prophecy.  (I definitely buy that theory)

 

Euron showed up unexpectedly and very conveniently the day after Balon died.  No question in my mind he hired the Faceless Man.

 

The only Ironborn I can stomach is the Reader.  I never liked Asha in the books, but the way she was written for the show (actually having some compassion for Theon) makes her less distasteful.

[John Potts]

I love the Kingsmoot because, despite my contempt for the whole Ironborn way of life (We kill people and steal their stuff!) they're the only folk South of the Wall that actually practice a form of democracy (OK, it's an elected monarchy, more akin to the Holy Roman Empire) and even - Shock! - permit a woman to run for it. Sure, Asha (Yara) doesn't win, but she does put up a decent shot at it. I mean, I'd've voted for her if I'd been there (of course I'd probably have been killed years before, because I'm not much of a fighter or backstabber) because she is the closest to having a realistic grasp of the situation. But the downside of democracy is that folk rarely vote for "We need to tighten our belts and live within our means" when there's a candidate saying "If we cut taxes we'll all get richer forever! Woo hoo!"

 

...or something more "Thrones"-y and less contemporary.

 

Only silly bit: that stupid horn. I can't help reading that "ARROO" (or whatever it was) as "A-Woogah!" the noise that Loony Tunes used whenever a hot woman/cat/bunny walked past and the guy's eyes jump two feet out of his head, jaw slams into the floor and tongue lolls 3 feet out of his mouth. Though actually the Ironborn might have a similar reaction, although they'd follow it up with "... and then sock her in the jaw and rape her before she hits the ground," which I'm pretty sure never happened on Loony Tunes!

Edited November 10, 2015 by John Potts

[mac123x]

No, he tries to put the woman to her place, to relegate her to Casterly Rock (since he can’t disinherit her or force her to another marriage), out of the way, while he would stay and rule  (‘cause that’s a man’s job!). He’s openly disobeying the Queen and his liege Lady, and when she correctly points out that he has no power of his own, his answer borders on treason, since he immediately starts talking about raising men and having money for paying mercenaries (also, look at the way he answers to Jaime: ‘are you threatening me?’). What gives him the right to act like this, in his mind? The fact that Cersei is a woman, and Tywin’s daughter; and women do as daddy, or the closest older male relative, says. The misogynist angle is all in that ‘woman’ he uses as an insult, and a reminder: you’re a woman, obey the man! He has a reasonable grudge with her, but he opposes her from the start, as if he thinks that a display of verbal brute force will be enough to cower her (because, again, that’s what Tywin does!)

 

I understand what you're saying here, but I think it's just as easy to interpret Kevan's statements differently.  I don't think he treated her this way because she's a woman; he treated her this way because she's incompetent.  He wanted her to go back to Casterly Rock and leave the governance of the realm (and the rearing of Tommen) to people who wouldn't screw it up.  Especially concerning Tommen, he had good evidence to call her a bad mother considering the monster Joffrey turned out to be.

 

Regarding the bolded part, Cercei was wrong.  She said that he was just a knight with no power, and he corrected her by pointing out that while he didn't have land of his own, he was a wealthy man with loyal retainers and could hire more if necessary.

 

Cercei asked him to serve as Hand.  He gave her a list of terms.  She rejected them, so he left. 

 

Not for Shimpy's eyes:

The epilogue to ADWD pretty much vindicates Kevan's position.  Varys murders him because he's started to set things right after Cercei made such a mess

[Haleth]

I think another thing is that Kevan finally figured out that Jaime was the children's father and he is disgusted by that.

[Terra Nova]

If Kevan wanted so badly to save the realm and Tommen from the Evil Queen, he should have stayed; he had a grudge with Cersei because of Lancel - understandable! - but I would expect some more effort on the behalf of an old man, instead of throwing a tantrum and leaving. Clearly, his reaction shows that, while having no respect for Cersei as a ruler, he didn't expect her to put up a fight or object to what he said. And the conditions he put for being Hand are quite demanding anyway, he's basically asking to be handed the Realm.

 

The statement about the men he can muster though is in the context of Cersei basically telling him 'you have no power against me', but Kevan's answer is the most undiplomatic he could come out with. Again, this is not how a seasoned ruler should react. And Cersei's abilities or lack thereof are undefensible, she's just baaaaaaad. Only, I would expect something more from allegedly more able and experienced men like her uncle.

 

 

Not for Shimpy

There is no doubt that Kevan is a more capable ruler than Cersei, obviously... my dog could rule better than her! But the epilogue shows that the Walk of Shame was Kevan's idea, a little trick he learnt from Tywin when they paraded their father's mistress in the streets... how is that not misogynistic? Cersei was punished for being a woman, and Kevan thinks her now to be too soiled to rule again. 'Damaged goods', to quote him.

[Delta1212]

I think Kevan has a level of internalized misogyny that most of the characters display as part of the culture of Westeros. As to whether it goes beyond that, I do think it's difficult to judge one way or the other at the point, because Cersei really is incompetent and Kevan really does have legitimate reason to dislike her. We don't know whether he would have behaved differently or much the same if Cersei was a woman other than who Cersei is.

And as for the Walk... I'll have to re-read the epilogue, but I wonder if there is a distinction to be made between punishing Cersei because she is a woman, and punishing Cersei in a way that will be especially effective because she is a woman in this society.

The former case, barring some thoughts from Kevan that I've forgotten about and will have to rediscover upon reread, I, again, don't know that we can know for sure one way or the other because the water is muddied by the fact that Cersei really is bad to have in that position and made a personal enemy of Kevan, giving him potential reasons for opposing her beyond just "she's a woman." (Contrast with Dumbhair who doesn't even pretend he has any reason to oppose Asha's claim other than that she is female).

On the second point, it's obviously unfair that a female ruler has a set of weaknesses that a male ruler doesn't have to deal with in this society because of how people perceive them (See the lengths the Red Widow went to in order to try to compensate for that reality), but I'm not sure whether exploiting that weakness is itself inherently mysoginistic or just more of the brand of ruthless politicking that Tywin used in exploiting any available weakness of his opposition.

[John Potts]

Re. The Doom of Valyria. I think it has been revealed, but in case I'm wrong:

Valyria was an Empire that covered most of Essos. Various bits rebelled and got their independence from it (eg. The Free Cities) one group of whom set up the Iron Bank (the Bravosi). The Valyrians were a leading family (with dragons) who seemed to get wind of a cataclysm coming and so moved into Westeros. Some time thereafter, there was a massive environmental cataclysm that sank various bits of land (like the Smoking Sea) and effectively ended the Valyrian Empire. Given the Targaryens were Valyrians - it's why Danerys can speak their language - she may be the rightful heir to their Empire, too.

[Terra Nova]

Some more details about Valyria are in Dance, though the clear cause of the Doom has not been clearly spelled out, at least to the point Shimpy has reached thus far.

 

No, the Targaryens were a very minor House of Valyria. Plus, many Valyrians survived the Doom because they lived in Volantis or other (later) Free Cities.The Free Cities actually were partially independent but only through a chart given by the Freehold, none of them won their rights through rebellion. Moreover, Valyrian blood is actually pretty common in Essos: Volantene nobles are pureblood Valyrians. Lyseni freemen and slaves alike have the same Valyrian features. Many Targaryens married Essosi nobles because of their pure Valyrian ancestry (like Larra Logare of Lys) or took them as lovers (like Aegon the Unworthy). Even Aerys intended Rhaegar to marry an Essosi noblewoman, in order to keep the blood pure. Even in Westeros itself there's at least a couple of other Valyrian families, like the Velaryons or the Celtigars. And High Valyrian is some sort of 'noble' language akin to Latin in medieval times, since even Arya knows some words of it(it's mentioned in her next chapter), but it doens't require having Valyrian blood to be spoken.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Terra Nova

[John Potts]

Thanks, Terra Nova, I would have checked my facts only I was on a different computer and had to get off it before I could.

For example, the Doom happened 100 before the Targs arrived in Westeros. Weren't the Targs were a parvenu house who had risen to prominence (something like the modern Tyrells) thanks to their dragons (or am I completely making that up)?. Anyway the capital Valyria was destroyed and with it, their Empire..

 

tl,dr version?

It's Atlantis and met the same fate.

Edited November 11, 2015 by John Potts

[Terra Nova]

@John Potts:

 

If I remember correctly, not all the nobles in Valyria were also dragonlords (clearly, those living in the colonies had none, since none survived); Targs had dragons, so they were in the upper half, so to speak, but very far from any prominence; then they moved to Dragonstone, allegedly after one of them, Daena the Dreamer, had a vision of the not so impending Doom. After that, Targs were the only known Valyrians to still have living dragons with them. Anyway, I do remember in the first or the second book a mention to some historical chronicle about the Targs, its title along the lines of 'yadda yadda Targs, from Exile to Apotheosis', so either the Daena thing was a later rumor, to impress the Westerosi - like being immune to sickness and other similar mumbo jumbo - or this is a case where Martin changed his mind along the way.

 

About the tl,dr:

Yes, the Atlantis vibe are all there, especially the parallels with the story told by Plato, where the Atlanteans lost control of the mysterious Orichalcos, from where all their power descended, causing their doom. I subscribe to the school of thought that the Valyrians just used too much magic, to the point of destabilizing the whole Freehold and the volcanoes.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

Um, I think the World of Ice and Fire and Arya's chapters mention it

but the mages that were keeping the Fourteen Flames( a chain of volcanoes that the Valyrians sent their slaves under to mine for valuable stuff) in check were assassinated by the first Faceless men who were former slaves thereby triggering the Doom.

Also the Targs before coming to Dragonstone were just minor nobility in the Valyrian Freehold.

Edited November 11, 2015 by WindyNights

[Callaphera]

We bring you this interruption of spoiler tags to say...

 

Hi! I started reading the books a few weeks back and figured that I could follow along with this topic as I did and maybe learn some things that I may have missed. I don't watch the show, had no idea what an "Unsullied" person was in regards to that, and quickly found out that there was show discussion as well. Unfortunately, to me, those little spoiler tags practically scream at me "Click me! Click meeee! You know you want to!" and I ended up spoiling myself for something that came later in the books - I think it was the Red Wedding. I got out of here right quick like and delved back into the books. I've since finished them and came back here to read through the thread to follow the discussion because even though I had never seen the show up to that point (I've only recently started watching Season One slowly), I didn't really care about spoiling myself for the show. I had never intended to watch it. I assumed this was going to be like my experience with Lord of the Rings: something that everyone begs me to watch and read and when I finally break down, I don't like the movies and I can't get past page 30 of the first book. So clearly wrong.

 

But this discussion! Wow! Granted, I've never gone looking for a book discussion before but you guys have completely opened my eyes to not only things that I missed but things that I must have just massively glossed over: Jon Snow's parentage, prophecies, the possible dragon sighting over Winterfell, Loras and Renly. Seriously, the list can just go on and on. I clearly need to sit down and reread all the books once I devour some more information and discussion on them. How did I miss all of this? So for the past few days, I've gone through this thread from start to finish, merrily clicked on all the spoiler tags ("Click meeee!"), and thoroughly enjoyed every bit of your discussion (and will continue to follow as it continues, because clearly, there's so much more to learn).

 

So this is kinda weird, but thank you stillshimpy for deciding to read the books, because through your reading of them, I discovered a whole wealth of knowledge about a series of books that I decided to start reading because I had nothing better to do and had exhausted what was on my bookcase. And thanks to everyone else here for making me realize that I really should read through them a second time (maybe after I watch some more of the show) to see what I can pick up on that I missed the first time. It's been a lot of fun reading through this.

[Haleth]

Welcome to the conversation, Callaphera!

[stillshimpy]

Welcome aboard, Callaphera :) The more the merrier :-)

The one insight, fan-theory that I absolutely adored was the "maybe there was a dragon beneath Winterfell all this time" very suitably Loch Ness: Northern Style.

[Mya Stone]

Welcome to the party, Callaphera! I'm so glad you've found a place you can read along with. This is the tip of the iceberg! There is a wealth of information online regarding the books and theories. It's a slippery, slippery slope. (Says the girl who's been a part of this fandom for 15+ years!) :)

[Alayne Stone]

Welcome to the forum, Callaphera! :)

 

Any time someone is inspired to read the books is a good thing. :D

 

There were so many things I glossed over on my first read through, so you're definitely not alone there. I'm on my third read through at the moment and there are things I am discovering for the first time still, including things Shimpy has pointed out in her own very insightful reading. I'm very much of the spoiler click bate persuasion as well. Glad I'm not the only one. There are pages and pages and pages of discussion of theories related to the series on the internet, as well as essays written about certain characters and plotlines in relation to both just the books and the books to show. So if you're interested in that, let me know. Also, there are a couple of chapters from the unpublished book 6 are available on line. If you want, I can link you to a page that has them readily available to read if you're interested in that as well. :)

 

Also it might be kind of interesting to get your view on the show now that you are viewing it after having read the books, but with them so fresh in your mind.

[Callaphera]

First off, thanks for the welcomes. I don't know how much I'll be able to add to the conversation, because you all are far more insightful than I was on my initial read. I think the problem was that the books were so good that I just kept devouring them quicker and quicker until I was racing through the last one (and then finding out that there were no more yet...).

 

Welcome aboard, Callaphera :) The more the merrier :-)

The one insight, fan-theory that I absolutely adored was the "maybe there was a dragon beneath Winterfell all this time" very suitably Loch Ness: Northern Style.

 

It was that one and the "Was Tywin Lannister posioned?" theory that really stuck with me. I admit, I missed the dragon-shape in my read and the poisoning never occurred to me until I read the theory but for some reason, I really like that one. Maybe because Tywin was one character that I wish I had been able to get more insight into and the way he went out, while hilarious, meant that I wasn't going to get much more story about him. For some reason he really fascinated me. I always tend to like the "villians" more than the "heroes" anyway.

 

Welcome to the party, Callaphera! I'm so glad you've found a place you can read along with. This is the tip of the iceberg! There is a wealth of information online regarding the books and theories. It's a slippery, slippery slope. (Says the girl who's been a part of this fandom for 15+ years!) :)

 

I'm learning just how vast it is! I've been reading various theories and possible hidden gems all afternoon. I can definitely see why it's so fascinating for people (and now I'm really regretting not reading the books earlier because so much has already passed me by and I want to delve into it so much). It's just such a rich world in so many ways and I really don't know where to start because all of it interests me in different ways. 

 

Welcome to the forum, Callaphera! :)

 

Any time someone is inspired to read the books is a good thing. :D

 

There were so many things I glossed over on my first read through, so you're definitely not alone there. I'm on my third read through at the moment and there are things I am discovering for the first time still, including things Shimpy has pointed out in her own very insightful reading. I'm very much of the spoiler click bate persuasion as well. Glad I'm not the only one. There are pages and pages and pages of discussion of theories related to the series on the internet, as well as essays written about certain characters and plotlines in relation to both just the books and the books to show. So if you're interested in that, let me know. Also, there are a couple of chapters from the unpublished book 6 are available on line. If you want, I can link you to a page that has them readily available to read if you're interested in that as well. :)

 

Also it might be kind of interesting to get your view on the show now that you are viewing it after having read the books, but with them so fresh in your mind.

 

Again, I don't even know where to start with learning more about it. It's all so rich and expansive and interesting (I keep using that word, but I can't think of another way to put it). I'd gladly take any sort of resources, reading material, links, what have you. Some of it still flies over my head and I'm constantly looking up character names to remind myself who's who. Is there a Beginner's Guide anywhere? I feel like I need the "See Spot Run" version to get started.

 

This is stillshimpy's gig so I don't want to take over any discussion of her experience, especially since I'm doing it backwards from her. But I will say that, while the show isn't a disappointment exactly, it's not quite what I had imagined it to be. Gore, boobs, that sort of thing I was expecting (because HBO), and the slurping scene was very... slurpy (and the scene in the brothel with the women and Littlefinger made me tilt my head very dog-like for awhile) but I think in the short time that I took to read the books, I had an image built up in my head of what characters looked like, what places looked like, that I find the show just can't live up to it. And it shouldn't, because it's a show. They have a budget, they have stuff that just can't be realized the same from page to screen, and they only have so many hours a season. I almost wish I had watched the show before the books. I've only seen six episodes so far and for the most part it seems to be a faithful representation, and I know that changes in later seasons.

 

So far my favourite characters book-wise are still some of my favourites show-wise (Sansa, Arya, and Catelyn Stark). Ned's still an idiot, Joffrey is much more fleshed out, as is King Robert (what a treat he turned out to be). The jury is still out on Tywin Lannister but I liked him so far in his brief appearance (I could go on and on about how much more I wanted from his character in the books). Cersei doesn't quite seem as good on the show as she did in the books to me but there's time. She may grow on me yet. I forsee a lot of problems with the show depicting the Daenerys story as it is in the books (if they can/do). And while I loved the story of Jon Snow and the Night's Watch in the books, I'm finding it very flat in the show. Don't even get me started on Sam and his boob obsession. (I did have a good laugh at everyone in the Night's Watch having black fur on their capes, while Jon Snow is the only one with a light coloured fur, which helps the character stand out visually but isn't he potentially special enough already?) 

 

And a random observance: The South Park episodes ruined me for life, I guess, because I sing the "weiner, weiner" bit to the theme song every. damned. time.

 

Unfortunately, Mr. Callaphera has absolutely no interest in the show or the books - and that's fair - so I miss my Partner in Snarking while watching. Snarking for one just isn't the same. But I did get a good laugh when he pointed out that every time he peeked to see what I was watching, all he saw was either boobs or sword play. Pretty good description of it so far! I think my plan is to watch what's available of the show now to the end and then go back to re-read if I'm not already burnt out on the material.

 

(Oh, look, she says she won't say much and then she writes a novel. Sorry about that. I'd say that I was going to check out the show threads for Season One but unfortunately they don't seem to get active until Season Four. Oh well. This is what happens when you come into something late. Snarking, party of one, right here!)

Edited November 12, 2015 by Callaphera

[Terra Nova]

@ Callaphera Welcome! And don't worry for the supposed length of your message, we can always just skip them :P Nah, just look at my rant about Kevan Lannister ^^' I think here we all tend to write a lot when discussing about this or that wrt the books.

 

As for the Season 1 snark, I suggest Turtle-paced on tumblr, she (I think she's a woman) just started a rewatch of the first Season, with small comments and notes, plus some retrospective about characters like Ned and Catelyn (Season 1); I would recommend all of that, with a caveat: the character retrospective are best left at the end of the season, and that the rewatch is tinted with the bitterness of later seasons, so you may find some of her remarks too critical.

 

Here's the link for the fine toothed comb edition of her rewatch:

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/125010846337/got-re-watch-fine-toothed-comb-edition

[John Potts]

Callaphera I feel like I need the "See Spot Run" version to get started.

 

Hello! Don't worry - I don't think anyone who posts in this thread (certainly not me) is immune from the "I'll just post a couple of... thousand words" tendency. But as for the "See Spot Run" version of ASoIaF, how about:

 

"This is Rhaegar. This is Lyanna. This is Rhaegar raping Lyanna. This is Lyanna's brother starting a war and helping kill all Rhaegar's family. Then they all died."

 

...though I don't think anyone will be reading it to their kids any time soon!

[Delta1212]

"I do not know it at the Wall

I do not know a thing at all

I do not know it in a cave

I do not know it in my grave

I do not know it here or there

I do not know it anywhere

I do not know a single thing

I am Jon Snow, I know nothing."