Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Terra Nova]

Also, no way it would have been possible to show Areo's chapter through the eyes of Doran, the internal monologue would have been a neverending wincing and cursing for the pain XD Also

Fire and Blood, so much Fire and Blood, is Quentyn arrived yet? Maybe he's already on his way back with three dragons in tow! Oh sweet sweet justice for my poor murdered sister, yeah I look so meek but I've been plotting for the past fifteen years *gasp* seven hells this gout is killing me. Mmm, maybe I'm giving away too much plot too soon?

. The narrative structure and the choice of the limited third person narrator demand the events being seen through someone phisically present, which is why sometimes we end up with less than charismatic characters as POVs (Areo is the closest we get to a camera floating in the scene).

Edited November 4, 2015 by Terra Nova

[nksarmi]

Terra Nova - your spoiler - lmao!!!!

 

Doran's daughter should have been the main PoV for Dorne.  I can't believe the show cut her.  She's just seems so freaking important - spoiler for book six:

Isn't she a PoV character in Winds? How can she not matter?

 

You know I have to say that the show has dropped some characters and stories along the way - or made major changes - that I've seen really piss people off (UnCat etc....) and I've kind of taken the good with the bad and enjoyed the show all along the way. And I anticipate continuing to do so in season six. 

 

But (season five spoilers ahead):

When I first learned we weren't going to get Doran's daughter in season five - it didn't register to me how much that should upset me.  I liked her character well enough in the books but I thought maybe the Sand Snakes could take over her plot well enough (nope - they failed to do their own plot as is!). But I really forgot how much it mattered to me that Dorne lets women rule, that Doran's daughter is his true heir not Trystane!  And what's really annoying is that I don't think the show runners can go back and fix it without us just ignoring stuff from season five.  Like I don't think they can introduce Doran's daughter now and put everything in the right perspective.  I think I'd accept it if they did because I want her in the show, but it would still feel like a - whoopsie, let's go back and retcon that. I really don't understand why they messed Dorne up so bad. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by nksarmi

[John Potts]

My problem with the Brienne chapters is not so much that she doesn't achieve anything, she isn't even close. If she was attempting to find Sansa but actually ended up tracking Arya, that would be fine.

But she doesn't seem likely to find even the wrong daughter any time soon. At least Show!Brienne succeeded in finding Sansa.

 Structurally it probably doesn't help that we learn what Arya & Sansa do before we hear about Brienne is doing to track them, because then we might see how the rumours Brienne was tracking had started - like how Tolkien showed Strider & co tracking Merry & Pippin before we learn what had actually happened to them in The Two Towers.

 

Terra Nova

Fire and Blood, so much Fire and Blood, is Quentyn arrived yet?

 

 

Talk about a plotline that goes nowhere!

A 100 page (I haven't counted, but it seemed at least that long - don't feel the need to correct me!) detour following a guy who completely fails to achieve anything and then dies. GRRM really needs an editor who is prepared to wield the red pen. Mind you, I did think "Fire and Blood" was a great wham line to end Doran's story on.

[Delta1212]

I know he's not popular, but

I still like Quentyn

[Terra Nova]

@nksarmi:

 

my opinion is that, once they decided to cut Aegon, Arianne was a collateral damage: whatever they're going to do with Dorne, either they'll keep Doran as the meek Prince shown in the past season, with no secret masterplan whatsoever, or they use Trystane as Dorne's claimant. Also, the reaction to Oberyn was overwhelming, so they tried to replicate the same with three chicks - but then introduce also a fourth female, not counting Ellaria? Too much! I would have much preferred having a single Arianne than three offensively cartoonish girls (in the series, I mean) who in the books are tertiary characters at best.

Lady Stoneheart is important, despite being mercilessly cut; Stannis is important, even if he probably won't end up sitting on the Iron Throne, but in the books he seems about to wipe out the Boltons, while in the show they're going to just give his storyline to someone else. Same for many, many other characters cut.

 

@John Potts:

 

I liked his story, it's a minor arc deconstructing some trope - I can understand why a lot of people do not like Quentyn, especially considering his arc in some vacuum, but I think he fits with some of Dance's themes. Also, he frees the dragons and his death will cause Dorne to antagonize Daenerys, in my opinion: there are already talks about the Mad Queen who made her husband kill her own brother so that she could be Queen, and later killed her husband so that she could be Khaleesi. Drinkwater tells Barristan that she laughed in Quentyn's face and mocked him in open court (which is absolutely true, from his point of view: Dany indeed laughed, thinking about the Frog Prince story, and even explained it... but not in the Common Tongue, looking as she was mocking her guests).

Edited November 4, 2015 by Terra Nova

[nksarmi]

Terra Nova: (not for shimpy's eyes) - I agree with all of your spoilers.....

and I think Quentyn is going to matter though I admit my first reaction to his story was annoyance bordering on anger.  I felt like Martin gave me a character to be interested in just to kill him off and I was pissed.  Plus holy shit did his proposal and Dany's rejection make her look bad.  I about did an absolute 180 in that moment to any "Team Dany" feelings I had left after the mess that was Meeren. I pretty much went to go "Team Aegon" and never considered he might be a fake until the show excised him.  I have a feeling that's what Quentyn's story is going to do for all of Dorne - put them firmly in Aegon's camp and hell, the kid might conquer Westerous while Dany's still figuring out who the hell she wants to sleep with.  I have been hopeful for awhile that they were going to turn Trystane into Aegon but that would mean no children for Doran. Still, can't believe Martin gave us everything pertaining to Dorne and the show can skip it and still make the end make sense.

[Terra Nova]

@nksarmi:

 

Totally, actually her sniggering was the most harmless part of the whole Quent revelation, it's her other thoughts that are appalling: "bleah, he's so plain! *Spots Gerris* who's that guy?! Me likey! Too bad HE's not the prince!" (and people say SANSA is the shallow girl) Then she says that she can't break the betrothal with Hizdahr - which is fair, very short-sighted to waste your hand with some non-Westerosi, but at least she's being honourable -, and some chapter later first she says basically "I'm not going to marry you, Quent, but Dornish help when I finally invade Westeros will be useful/expected" - because clearly a major House, higher in station than any other Lord Paramount and in a region with a much larger autonomy should support a rebellion in exchange for... what? I mean, Dany's even convinced she's barren, there's NOTHING she can offer them! - and then brings Quent to the dragons and mocks him ("he doesn't belong, he should have never left his water gardens!") after he cowers in front of two huge feral beasts. The worst part for me: if Quent had held his ground and even looked brave, I have the feeling Daenerys would have been more than happy to toss Hizdahr away... so much for keeping your word!

[Which Tyler]

I'm doing pretty well for book conversions currently; Last Kingdom on the Beeb, Dark materials on the Beeb, Shannara (guilty pleasure - hey, I was a tween; don't judge me!) on MTV, American Gods on Starz... Just need someone to pick up the Warlord Chronicles, the Gentleman Bastards or Fitz and the Fool and I'll be a very happy boy.

Oh, and someone somewhere (not Sky) needs to do Nation properly. That one deserves a respectful adaptation to the big screen.

 

1 down, 2 to go

[Haleth]

Wait, what? Someone did an adaptation of American Gods? I'm going to have to check that out. (The Gentlemen Bastards would be fun on screen.)

Edited November 4, 2015 by Haleth

[magdalene]

I really like Brienne and I enjoy looking at the world through her eyes. Her misfortune is that she is one of the genuinely good people in these books. I don't find her POVS boring at all.

[glowbug]

My problem with Brienne's chapters, as others have mentioned above, is that not only is she no where close to finding Sansa and Arya, we as the readers already know this. If we weren't privy to their locations then Brienne's chapters would have been a lot more interesting because I would have been in suspense about whether or not she might actually find one of them, but because I knew she wasn't most of her chapters were tedious to read. It's a shame because Brienne is one of my favorite characters and I hopelessly ship Jamie and Brienne. (Note: I really tried not to become invested in any romantic relationships in this series because I know the likelihood of a happy ending are slim to none but I couldn't help myself with those two.) Her chapters do get interesting towards the end. Actually, I could say that about most of the characters' chapters.

[WindyNights]

@John That character only had 44 pages not 100 pages. I just counted them myself.

I really disagree that that plot went nowhere. It created a rift between Dany and Dorne and he freed the dragons as well as helped bring the Tattered Prince to Dany's side. Also GRRM used Quentyn to tell us what happened at Astapor. I think all of that was worth 44 pages.

Edited November 4, 2015 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

My problem with Brienne's chapters, as others have mentioned above, is that not only is she no where close to finding Sansa and Arya, we as the readers already know this. If we weren't privy to their locations then Brienne's chapters would have been a lot more interesting because I would have been in suspense about whether or not she might actually find one of them, but because I knew she wasn't most of her chapters were tedious to read. It's a shame because Brienne is one of my favorite characters and I hopelessly ship Jamie and Brienne. (Note: I really tried not to become invested in any romantic relationships in this series because I know the likelihood of a happy ending are slim to none but I couldn't help myself with those two.) Her chapters do get interesting towards the end. Actually, I could say that about most of the characters' chapters.

The thing about this is that you

shouldn't have ever thought the point of it was finding Arya/Sansa but rather see it as an opportunity to explore her character, the crownlands(which we've never done before and the introduction of elements that'll be important later like the Mad Mouse. Also you shouldn't want Brienne to find them yet because it would've cut Arya and Sansa's arcs short before they could get to the next level.

Edited November 4, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

I ended up enjoying Brienne's chapter also. I liked the Hedge Knights she met and for once nothing truly horrifying happened. Illifer the Penniless and Creighton the Bloody Chicken fighter were full of crap, but at least -- and this is at least somewhat remarkable -- no tried to rape Brienne for an entire chapter. How refreshing! An entire chapter with no attempt assault, beatings, rape or -- and this was the one I thought most likely -- Brienne getting robbed of all her goods.

I was also glad the she had the wits to sneak away from them and that she encountered someone else (who I'll bet ends up following her, because that's how Brienne's luck rolls) gave her a heads up about every bounty hunting Knight and vagabond in the country looking for Sansa and Dontos. It will be interesting to see if she changes her approach.

Then Sam gets sent off to Oldtown to become a Maester and OF COURSE it turns out that his father did something absolutely hideous to him when he just wanted to go and learn. I'd always wondered why Sam didn't simply become a Maester, but I take it that his home is reasonably nearby and his father's going to be make Bolton look like Daddy of the Year.

This book has had some humor in it, at least, between bloody chickens and Dolorous Edd only getting the mouse's tail (and that was on special occasions, mind you) . I like Edd, it's like he nipped in from a particularly dour Python skit.

More cool world-building at Braavos, and that's one question answered. Season five spoiler

I'd always wondered if Jaqen was subbed in for another character at the House of Black and White, to try and help with audience confusion. Seems like he was. That makes me hopeful that it is someone other than Jaqen who blinds Arya when she's off mission and killing...whoever she goes bugshit and kills, possibly still Trant, but I'm hoping that it is someone else.

So the pools have the gift of death and the Many Faced God is what awaits people when they die. So....Hades? Super Creepy Visage Priest doesn't seem all that likely to stay all that kindly, for terribly long, because....Arya. She has only slightly better luck than Brienne. But I did enjoy her sea voyage and felt for her when she wanted to stay aboard.

She's still a kid and it's been years since she's known anything resembling home.

By the way, I did like that Jon was actually getting Sam out of harm's way, to the best of his ability. I just felt sorry for Sam that he couldn't see it for that. He's sending Sam somewhere his intellect might be valued, even admired. I'm assuming that, as much as anything having to do with the "Tarly's Don't Serve!" was Randall Tarly wouldn't let Sam go the Citadel.

[Avaleigh]

Windy Nights--

 

I agree with you about Quentyn's story not being pointless. Adding to your points, I also think that Quentyn's failure with the dragons served to do two other things in addition to freeing Rhaegal and Viserion so that they can wreak havoc and eventually gain riders. (Likely Jon and Tyrion with Bran possibly being thrown into the mix.) First, I think that Quentyn's failure makes Dany's taming of Drogon all the more impressive. Second, I think it shows that the blood helps and is necessary (IMO the evidence here that the blood is necessary is overwhelming and yes, I know about Nettles.) However, it's not just about having the blood of the dragon. There are Targs who had the blood but the eggs wouldn't crack for some reason and at least one example of a dragonrider being rejected after trying to ride a different dragon. I think we needed to see an example of dragon taming gone wrong in order to really respect when somebody like Tyrion is able to make it happen. I also think it's better that we were in Quentyn's head for the moment. All that being said, I can see how Quentyn's story could have been told in two chapters as opposed to three.

 

I argued that Quentyn's story could have been told in the show in just three scenes and still feel that it would have been worth it. We wouldn't have needed to see any traveling just his arrival to Meereen, a conversation with Dany.

[Terra Nova]

Randyll Tarly, an abusive piece of $h!t and contender with Tywin Lannister for the title of 'Best Westerosi Dad" - now with 200% more filial humiliation!

[Alayne Stone]

Regarding Brienne’s chapters …

 

I think the problem here is that too many people are focused on Brienne finding the Stark girls. That was the goal she set out on, but that is not the purpose of her POV chapters. The purpose is to show the effect that war has on the smallfolk which is utterly devastating. It’s … not light stuff, but I think things like Septon Maribald’s speech are some of George’s greatest commentary on the horrible effect of war and how the ambitions of a few can affect so many people. Brienne is valid in her own right, she's not just there to help progress the plot of the Stark girls.

 

Is this the first time the story of how Randyl treated Sam has been brought up in the books? I thought it was sooner for whatever reason, probably because it's brought up several times in the show.

 

Shimpy really has no idea how awful Randyl Tarley is. I can't wait for when Brienne crosses paths with him.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Haleth]

No, in the books Sam has told Jon several charming stories about his delightful childhood.

[stillshimpy]

None quite as charming as being chained up while he slept. Just, you know, threatened with murder if he didn't go to The Wall and being cast aside when a younger brother showed up. That and not being allowed to sleep somewhere where girls were (in a seemingly innocent fashion), seemingly because Tarly thought it was making him soft.

Can I just admit that there's one thing that is odd about the "Papa Tarly: He chained Sam up in a dungeon, in the dark" aspect of everything? Sam's size. So his father just beat the living boogers out of him, constantly, told he was a failure, wasn't above imprisoning his own child and terrorizing him....but he was allowed enough access to foods that he became very substantial in size? That seems like the kind of thing Papa Tarly would have thrown him in a dungeon over screaming about bread and water. Or something. Guy suck, my point being, and not above starving his child if he didn't like his girth.

So the Karstarks are with Stannis now. Well, at least someone from the North decided, "Screw Bolton, Screw the Lannisters. Screw the Lot of You. Stannis it is!" Not that I'm some huge Stannis fan, but pretty much no matter what anyone thought of Catelyn letting Jaime go, I can't imagine they were okay with burning Robb's men alive, etc.

By the way, nice of Jon to think of getting Aemon the hell away from Melisandre. Val's locked in a tower and I'm really freaking worried about what will become of Mance Rayder's son.

I loved the description of the Titan in Arya's voyage. Gosh there's something else I meant to mention and it keeps escaping me.

I'm sure it will eventually come to me, but for the moment: One thing I liked about Brienne's chapter -- and god knows, with this story it's not like I expect this to last -- but it was awfully nice that she encountered people who didn't automatically, as a default setting SUCK.

The Knights who thought she was a fellow Hedge Knight were hailing her over to share a meal and it wasn't for any nefarious purposes.

Annnnnndd I just remembered what it was. Sparrows. So, the holy order of Bird Brains, eh? season five spoiler

MOTHERFUCKER....is that High Sparrow, Homophobic bullshit really in these books?!? I realize I have phrased that question in a way that makes it impossible to answer me with an affirmative unless you say, "So...shimpster, maybe take a blood thinner before you look here but..." because more than anything I treasured the hope that was one of the stories that had just been fully made the hell up for the show.

So I was particularly glad of the "they seem decent enough ...haven't stolen Brienne's horse, attempted to rape her or anything truly horrible...and Oh....no....Sparrows?"

[bobbybuilderton]

Without answering the question, I'll just give you my personal favorite non-answer that grrm likes to give occasionally to (imo) avoid badmouthing the show: the show is the show, the books are the books.

I like it because it's so useless you might as well not answer. It's like if someone asked you which you think is better, apples or oranges and you go apples are apples, oranges are oranges. NO SHIT

Edited November 4, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[mac123x]

AFFC spoiler

Awaiting Shimpy's realization that she just met the High Sparrow in Brienne's chapter.  Though it's really a different character than in the show.

[chandraReborn]

Yeah, such as 

not being a homophobe, but a complex character with genuine complaints.

 

Keep an open mind where the High Sparrow is concerned. 

 

Also, 

LOL on the Karstarks!

[Dev F]

Also, no way it would have been possible to show Areo's chapter through the eyes of Doran, the internal monologue would have been a neverending wincing and cursing for the pain XD Also

Fire and Blood, so much Fire and Blood, is Quentyn arrived yet? Maybe he's already on his way back with three dragons in tow! Oh sweet sweet justice for my poor murdered sister, yeah I look so meek but I've been plotting for the past fifteen years *gasp* seven hells this gout is killing me. Mmm, maybe I'm giving away too much plot too soon?

. The narrative structure and the choice of the limited third person narrator demand the events being seen through someone phisically present, which is why sometimes we end up with less than charismatic characters as POVs (Areo is the closest we get to a camera floating in the scene).

 

But that's a challenge more than an explanation, it seems to me. If you're forced to tell part of the story from a less central POV, the idea is to make that POV compelling, not throw up your hands and let it be boring because the interesting characters are off-limits.

 

At his best, that's something Martin is certainly capable of. After all, in the chapter where we're introduced to the Starks, it's not via a character who's central to the events of that chapter. Bran basically just gets taken along with his father and passively witnesses him doing important things, and then watches his older brothers and Theon react to them. But unlike in the introduction of Dorne, these events a) mean something to Bran, so that despite his passivity we're learning about him and his family and bonding emotionally with them, and b) mean something to us, since not only are we witnessing something as inherently dramatic as a high nobleman personally executing someone under his jurisdiction, but we're also watching the execution of a character we've already come to know and care about via the prologue.

 

There's no reason Martin couldn't have done likewise at the beginning of A Feast for Crows. Instead of introducing Doran and the Sand Snakes from the POV of a foreign hired hand whose view of the individuals involved is detached and dispassionate, he could've told it from the point of view of someone who loves Doran and hates the Sand Snakes, or vice versa. Or someone who loves them all and wishes they could get along. Ellaria Sand would've been an interesting choice, I think, but Martin could have invented any character he wanted, given him or her whatever backstory he wanted. It didn't have to be a dreary blank.

 

And instead of centering the chapter around a character who's repeatedly interrupted in his efforts to do something boring, he could've had Doran doing something interesting and important and finding himself constantly thwarted. Like, say, what if he was trying to pay tribute to his brother's memory in his own nonconfrontational way, and the Sand Snakes interrupted to argue that his namby-pamby memorial was an affront to their father's memory? Then the confrontation is not between "Revenge!" and "Shut up, I'm watching children play!" but about how best to respond to Oberyn's passing. Which, in turn, is a consideration we as readers are already primed to consider important, because as with Bran's first chapter, we both understand the fundamental drama of the grieving process and have our own emotional connection to the character being mourned.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Dev F

[WindyNights]

@Dev The watching children's play is extremely important actually. It's thematically singnificant and plays into

what Doran says later on about it's the innocent and the children that suffer.

I wouldn't say Areo doesn't care. He obviously cares about the Martells especially Arianne a lot. It's mentioned in his narrative.

[glowbug]

I still think GRRM could have included all of those world building details while advancing the plot forward. Brienne's chapters don't start advancing the plot until the end. I prefer that an author does both and I think GRRM up until AFFC an ADWD did a good job of it so I know he's capable. It's generally frowned upon to pause the story and explaining stuff, which is essentially what he does with Brienne's chapters. In fantasy and science fiction some amount of explanation is necessary because there's so much you can't take for granted but I think he went overboard in AFFC. I understand that it doesn't bother everyone. It's just something that made AFFC less enjoyable for me.

[jellyroll2]

Shimpy, what did you think of the change with Sam going to Oldtown? Season 5 spoiler:

in the show it was Sam's idea to go while in the book Jon pretty much forces him to go for his own good.

Oh boy, Randyl Tarly. A guy that will make you recall Tywin's style of parenting (and ruling) with fondness.

i do think that the purpose of Brienne's chapters really was to give us a look into the fallout of the war and its effects on the smallfolk. The search for the Stark girls was just the reason given but I don't believe that was its narrative purpose. those interactions with the common folk, her meeting the High Sparrow, the dwarf she meets that later gets killed due to Cersei's edict, Septon Meribald, Pod, Hyle Hunt, the Elder Brother & the Quiet Isle... A shit ton happens in her chapters I think that actually do advance the plot. Not to mention all her development. They're a slow but

Ron and I do think tend to work better on a re-read like much of AFFC

[Reader of Books]

The thing about this is that you

shouldn't have ever thought the point of it was finding Arya/Sansa but rather see it as an opportunity to explore her character, the crownlands(which we've never done before and the introduction of elements that'll be important later like the Mad Mouse. Also you shouldn't want Brienne to find them yet because it would've cut Arya and Sansa's arcs short before they could get to the next level.

 

Shouldn't expect the narrative to be driven along? Why should this story get a pass from that literary need? Loved Brienne. Loved Pod. Loved seeing the story of the smallfolk and devastation be told. Can never love the fact GRRM was forcing me to swing my heels.

[ElizaD]

The Brienne talk reminds me, we're past Arya's last chapter with Sandor and Book Brienne never ran into them together. I can see why that happened on the show (two badasses meet and fight to prove who's better) and it's the kind of mixing/combination of plots that's done very often in TV/movie adaptations so that there aren't too many random characters running around, but it does make the world a little smaller. It's a bit like a Star Wars moment when it feels like everyone in the galaxy is either related to or has met a Skywalker.

 

Though I love parts of AFFC I'm not a big fan of it in general and one of the reasons has already come up in the Dornish discussion: it feels like it moves to a "POV character as camera" vibe. GRRM is no longer as content to leave parts of the story offscreen because a POV isn't present, like Robb's marriage for example: no Catelyn, so that when the revelation did happen it was about the plot point that actually took place in the previous book's timeline and the POV character's emotional response to it. Instead GRRM gives POVs to characters who are around to see something happen (or start moving towards happening... at some point... presumably) without making the character feel important in his/her own right: the purpose of such POVs is the plot point, not the character's personality and development. The result is that if I care it's because of something that happened before (in the case of Dorne, Oberyn's vibrant presence in multiple Tyrion chapters, which built a series of interactions for those two and made me believe in him as a well-rounded character even though I never got an Ellaria POV about their intimate moments and his planned revenge).

[Protar]

Can I just admit that there's one thing that is odd about the "Papa Tarly: He chained Sam up in a dungeon, in the dark" aspect of everything? Sam's size. So his father just beat the living boogers out of him, constantly, told he was a failure, wasn't above imprisoning his own child and terrorizing him....but he was allowed enough access to foods that he became very substantial in size? That seems like the kind of thing Papa Tarly would have thrown him in a dungeon over screaming about bread and water. Or something. Guy suck, my point being, and not above starving his child if he didn't like his girth.

 

IIRC, from Sam's original tale to Jon in AGoT, Randyll basically just gave up on Sam after a point and he was allowed a few years of peace eating and chilling with his sisters before he came of age. 

[Terra Nova]

 @DevF:

 

oh, but I do not think Areo Otah is the best POV Martin created, far from it. As someone said upthread, the focus of such POV is on the plot, not on the character itself. Which of course is a step lower than a compelling character with a compelling plot unfolding in front of him, but I guess this was the best possible outcome - I'm not taking into account a severe rewriting of the plot in order to accomodate POVs and so on. Actually,

even the relative lack of actions on Doran's part is useful: as readers, we are truly to think he's a weak, ineffective ruler, so that we tend to connect with Arianne: SHE's the heart of the Dornish plotline, the character we should resonate with. And what we see, even before we meet her, is a Doran seemingly uninterested in avenging Oberyn, half-secluded in a willing exile spent... watching children splash? And then we learn of his plot to deny Arianne's birthright, in favor of her brother. This is (good, interesting) emotional manipulation at its finest by the narrator, and it works even better on re-reads, or after rethinking the subplot once at the end of the book.

 

Not everything must be spelt out, just like, taking your own example, at the execution of the diserter: we see Theon kicking the severed head and laugh, and Jon muttering that he's an asshole. That's... quite accurate, if taken at face value. A reader can take that Jon is the good guy, Theon not so much. But upon rethinking about Theon's situation, after a couple of books? That's Theon witnessing his possible future, if Balon rises agin in rebellion, and laughing at the shade of his own execution. This too is emotional manipulation, only seen through the eyes of the 'important' POV already.

That said, Feast and Dance suffer sometimes of a not so tight editing, and while I'm happy with the final result, I'm not convinced a better outcome wasn't possible.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

. Instead of introducing Doran and the Sand Snakes from the POV of a foreign hired hand whose view of the individuals involved is detached and dispassionate, he could've told it from the point of view of someone who loves Doran and hates the Sand Snakes, or vice versa. Or someone who loves them all and wishes they could get along. Ellaria Sand would've been an interesting choice, I think, but Martin could have invented any character he wanted, given him or her whatever backstory he wanted. It didn't have to be a dreary blank.

You know, as someone reading this stuff for the first time, I should probably clarify something: I knew going into this that Book 4 and Book 5 are essentially one GIANT book cut into two. That all of four will be missing specific POVS (Mya and I talked about that when I asked her why I would even want to consider reading the story in some Leatherstocking, Boiled Leather or something, order) ...so I went into this knowing that "Okay, I bet I know why this story isn't as popular in some quarters." It must have been frustrating as hell to people who waited years for this book then, joy, had to wait YEARS more to find out about characters of great interest to them. But I also knew that wouldn't be happening for me, so I started reading with an understanding of what wouldn't be present. It had to be incredibly frustrating back in the day. It also had to be sort of frustrating for anyone who didn't have a reader patiently explain things. Mya has been kind enough to be my reader's guide on this (and part of the reason I opted out of reading them in the Unspoiled Reader's guide someone posted to above: I basically have my own guide -- and thank you again, Mya Stone for doing that, I genuinely appreciate it).

Okay, so having said all that? The reason I like that almost detached, agnostic or nearly neutral viewpoint is it specifically lets me make up my own damned mind about what is going on. Viewing everything from that remove really has enhanced the tale. I don't know why Doran has this almost sacred "I'm watching the children play" thing going on. I don't know what he thinks about his brother dying. I'm not being issued an invitation to reception-of-the-narrative bias.

It's part of why it makes perfect sense that it was originally intended to be part of a prologue and epilogue. Those are the only other chapters that take me outside of the filters of the main characters.

Also, what I appreciated about Dorne is it immediately felt dangerous in a way that Kings Landing and the rest Westeros doesn't, because the types of danger -- clear discontent among the people, a long history with the seven kingdoms, plus unlike the overwrought scheming of the other areas of the Kingdom where everyone thinks they are involved in wrestling match for power, Dorne is just openly spoiling for a fight and seizing upon this opportunity to bring it about.

So Doran became instantly interesting to me because he's so damned different from everyone else in this story. Almost everyone else is all "Conflict resolution without a massacre? Bah. Who the hell would want that? Let's disembowel someone, butcher a horse in the process and drop kick a dog while we're at it!" Doran is interesting for being the person with enough wisdom -- at least at first glance -- to want to keep the peace for the sake of his actual subjects.

No one else in this story has really been as interested in "Maybe we'll try for a peaceful solution? People suffer and die in war, a good ruler will actually do their best to avoid it for the sake of the people under their charge."

All other main characters have approached war, violent conflict, seizing by force with a kind of Gamer's attitude towards the bloody losses: Like they aren't attached to people who hurt, and bleed and suffer.

So that's what I liked about Doran and I thought that Hotah's POV really helped underline the "how are two people with enough sense to want to avoid war going to navigate these waters"....and he's the anti-Joffrey. Part of why I always liked the Starks so much is that they seem to actually give a shit about people under their protection, on their lands, in their holdings dying because they are people.

I'm glad somebody else finally showed up who seems to object to wholesale slaughter on the grounds of....wholesale slaughter is actually a really poor tool for ruling.

Tywin Lannister can actually claim something like "Is it better for twelve people to die at dinner..." but he was just lying through his damned teeth there. Flaming tents dropped on soldiers, any man loyal to the Starks killed as horribly as possible. Also, as many insults the remaining people as possible. What happened to Robb and Catelyn's bodies doesn't help diffuse any violence.

So anyway, he was interesting to me as the person in this story whose first approach, his default setting, seems to be in trying to figure out how to keep the peace, rather than scream for blood, when it is people other than his family who will bleed it.

 

Shimpy, what did you think of the change with Sam going to Oldtown? Season 5 spoiler:

Well, first off the season five stuff

whereas the show makes it about Sam choosing to go, it's also not made quite so clear that he's going particularly far away. There's no plan for Gilly's baby in that. It does make Sam seem less reactionary and prone to panic, but then Show Sam really needed that. I'm on record all over the place for just not liking the guy for at least three seasons, because mostly he fell on his face if asked to walk more than three steps. Then he whined endlessly about "you left me there to die!" which...what the fuck were they supposed to do? Show Sam acted for too long like he thought of himself as someone akin to Little Samwell. Like the men of the Watch were there to protect him, rather than being a participant in protecting anyone else, including his fellow Night's Watchmen.

But Book Sam's reasons for being terrified are conveyed in a manner that makes them more understandable. Also, it was important, I thought, to understand something the character wasn't: This is Jon's attempt to save and protect Sam in a way that he isn't affording anyone else. That it's so easy to see from Jon's perspective. Jon thinks he is giving Sam this incredible gift, and Sam -- for reasons he doesn't convey to Jon -- makes Jon treat it like an order to be followed, because Sam is unable to understand that it's better to try and face your bullying abusive father, than to face an army of Dead Things when you can't fight easily, or well. It really does manage to emphasize what a lonely position Sam's efforts have placed Jon in. Nice illustration of "It's lonely at the top" and also knowing that Jon is already resented for rising to that level. That he understands what it is to command (thanks to his own experience, but also Ned's influence in his life) and that Sam, without really understanding it, has made Jon live out his own parting from his last known relative.

When Benjen and Jon part for what appears to be the last time, Jon exhibits absolutely no understanding that his Uncle is doing everything he can to act like someone who really does love and care about Jon in almost paternal fashion, where you don't get to be liked or appreciated for your (ultimately) loving act of making a decision that is best for someone else....even if it will lead to resentment from that person.

So Jon basically gets to stand in Ned's and Benjen's shoes there: To know what it is like to have honest, enduring familial affection for someone, but now being the grownup, leader, father figure that has to be stern about just knowing better. It makes for a different sort of parting. In the book, Jon has to be cold about it to get Sam to receive what is actually an enormous gift: safety in a perilous times.

Season five

when they part on the show, it is with warmth on both sides, and that does color how Sam will end up receiving the news of Jon's murder specifically because Sam chooses to leave Jon. It gives Sam more agency, but it does take away from the sense of Jon being a natural born commander. Basically, it denies viewers a chance to see why Jon was someone Mormont and others singled out as showing promise.

In the books it gives a sense of why Jon is suited to command. He's able to detach himself from the need for peer approval, which is part of what leadership really is. That's not the same thing as saying, "Leaders can't care about being liked" but that they need to be able to put that at the proper level of detachment and to know that, in the end, it has to be something that is set aside completely as a desire when the need arises. That in that instance it is Jon's closest friend and greatest ally just makes it more poignant. They part working within the structure that Sam himself made sure was built: no longer as peers.

Edited November 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

How far are you? I just finished the next Cersei chapter.

[stillshimpy]

I'm just about to start it, Delta :-)

[Delta1212]

Enjoy!

[Delta1212]

And for the record, I agree about Doran and the Dornish POV thus far. It's much more engaging on the second read through than on the first, and frankly I think you're getting the best of both worlds.

Some things so far are different enough from the show to still be intriguing, but you've had enough of a prior introduction to the characters that you don't have to flail around as much about who these people all are and how they are related as first time readers who were also wondering where the hell all the characters they were familiar with were.

It's like you get the benefits of the second read through on your first read.

[nksarmi]

Book spoiler:

I enjoy show Jon but I just fully realized that while they gave him some nice commanding moment - they took away some of his biggest born to rule moments with getting Aemon away from Mel, sending Sam and Gilly to safety and Mance's boy. He made a series of hard choices in these books.  The parallels of Jon and Dany learning to rule must be fascinated on a second read through.

 

[stillshimpy]

Well I've read the most recent Cersei and Jaime chapters. There's not a lot to be said about them, other than Cersei being almost delusional throughout "I am not without friends"? Uh, yeah, about that...

Also, it required a gigantic suspension of disbelief in all things mortal to believe that they'd have a wake that was supposed to run for 7 days and nights, when they aren't doing anything to preserve the corpse. Frankly, Twyin would have looked a lot worse than that and honestly, there's a reason that people were committed to the ground or a funeral pyre quite swiftly: it's unhealthy as hell to hang around rotting corpses. If anything Tywin wasn't putrid enough and he'd bloat before he'd dry.

I do enjoy that Cersei's just bad at all of this, when she thinks she's bloody well brilliant. I can't say I'm giddy at the thought of a full book with Cersei as freaking regent. She's paranoid, completely unskilled at handling people and she doesn't actually seem all that bright. More interested in plotting vengeance against any small slight than in getting anything done.

Then Jaime's chapter bordered on tedium. Twyin rots and rots and rots in the background, everyone talks or thinks about the god awful stench, then Cersei drags an eight-year-old in to pray near a decomposing corpse a chapter after she's been fretting about Tommen's relatively less-than-robust health.

Then it seems like Jaime has talked himself into believing that Tyrion was lying to him about Cersei's activities and it was sort of a giant reset, just drawn out. It wasn't an interesting enough scene to warrant two POVs of the same goings on.

I don't know, there are areas where narrative bloat occurs and that felt like one of them, so to have it all centering around a non-bloated corpse just felt like underlining the "This seems like narrative stalling for the sake of it" .

But it was at least a little amusing that apparently Rhaegar uttered the kiss-of-character-death "We'll speak when I return."

Edited November 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Sam and Jon's farewell was pretty kind heart-breaking:

"So do you, Sam. Have a swift, safe voyage, and take care of her and Aemon and the child." Jon smiled a strange, sad smile. "And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair."

Jon's last image of Robb was the snowflakes melting in his hair.

[Mya Stone]

I think the interesting thing to me about Cersei is that she likely suffered a complete psychotic break after Joffrey's death; it's unfortunate that it's after this that we have insight into her thoughts, but according the others around her - mainly through Sansa and Tyrion, but also Ned at first - she wasn't ALWAYS this broken. She wasn't as smart as she thought she was, but she wasn't a puffed up stuffed lioness, either. I truly believe the paranoia, delusion, and grandiosity is coming from complete and utter psychosis. She views her children as extensions of her (much like she views Jaime) and in her supreme narcissism, it is like a part of her is killed. And it breaks her. She just doesn't realize it. Of course, this may be because I'm studying psychiatric nursing now.

[WindyNights]

Well I've read the most recent Cersei and Jaime chapters. There's not a lot to be said about them, other than Cersei being almost delusional throughout "I am not without friends"? Uh, yeah, about that...

Also, it required a gigantic suspension of disbelief in all things mortal to believe that they'd have a wake that was supposed to run for 7 days and nights, when they aren't doing anything to preserve the corpse. Frankly, Twyin would have looked a lot worse than that and honestly, there's a reason that people were committed to the ground or a funeral pyre quite swiftly: it's unhealthy as hell to hang around rotting corpses. If anything Tywin wasn't putrid enough and he'd bloat before he'd dry.

I do enjoy that Cersei's just bad at all of this, when she thinks she's bloody well brilliant. I can't say I'm giddy at the thought of a full book with Cersei as freaking regent. She's paranoid, completely unskilled at handling people and she doesn't actually seem all that bright. More interested in plotting vengeance against any small slight than in getting anything done.

Then Jaime's chapter bordered on tedium. Twyin rots and rots and rots in the background, everyone talks or thinks about the god awful stench, then Cersei drags an eight-year-old in to pray near a decomposing corpse a chapter after she's been fretting about Tommen's relatively less-than-robust health.

Then it seems like Jaime has talked himself into believing that Tyrion was lying to him about Cersei's activities and it was sort of a giant reset, just drawn out. It wasn't an interesting enough scene to warrant two POVs of the same goings on.

I don't know, there are areas where narrative bloat occurs and that felt like one of them, so to have it all centering around a non-bloated corpse just felt like underlining the "This seems like narrative stalling for the sake of it" .

But it was at least a little amusing that apparently Rhaegar uttered the kiss-of-character-death "We'll speak when I return."

well everything was done that was normally done to make Tywin's corpse not smell. It wouldn't have normally smelled.

There's a theory for this actually but apparently (I'll put this in spoilers just in case because Im not sure whether to reveal it)

Oberyn poisoned Tywin before he died which is why he was willing to go all out against the Mountain knowing that Tywin was going to die. And that he used widow's blood, a poison that shuts down a man's bowel hence why Tyrion found him on the toilet. It's also one of the poisons that I think Pycelle claims was stolen from him by Tyrion during the trial and it's why Tywin's corpse is doing strange things.

Edited November 5, 2015 by WindyNights

[ImpinAintEasy]

Well I've read the most recent Cersei and Jaime chapters. There's not a lot to be said about them, other than Cersei being almost delusional throughout "I am not without friends"? Uh, yeah, about that...

Also, it required a gigantic suspension of disbelief in all things mortal to believe that they'd have a wake that was supposed to run for 7 days and nights, when they aren't doing anything to preserve the corpse. Frankly, Twyin would have looked a lot worse than that and honestly, there's a reason that people were committed to the ground or a funeral pyre quite swiftly: it's unhealthy as hell to hang around rotting corpses. If anything Tywin wasn't putrid enough and he'd bloat before he'd dry.

I do enjoy that Cersei's just bad at all of this, when she thinks she's bloody well brilliant. I can't say I'm giddy at the thought of a full book with Cersei as freaking regent. She's paranoid, completely unskilled at handling people and she doesn't actually seem all that bright. More interested in plotting vengeance against any small slight than in getting anything done.

Then Jaime's chapter bordered on tedium. Twyin rots and rots and rots in the background, everyone talks or thinks about the god awful stench, then Cersei drags an eight-year-old in to pray near a decomposing corpse a chapter after she's been fretting about Tommen's relatively less-than-robust health.

Then it seems like Jaime has talked himself into believing that Tyrion was lying to him about Cersei's activities and it was sort of a giant reset, just drawn out. It wasn't an interesting enough scene to warrant two POVs of the same goings on.

I don't know, there are areas where narrative bloat occurs and that felt like one of them, so to have it all centering around a non-bloated corpse just felt like underlining the "This seems like narrative stalling for the sake of it" .

But it was at least a little amusing that apparently Rhaegar uttered the kiss-of-character-death "We'll speak when I return."

 

 

Heh. That was an interesting piece of info, though. It seems like Rhaegar had planned on removing Aerys from the throne once the war was over, and perhaps planned even more far reaching changes.

In a later chapter, I believe it is a Barristan POV, it is also mentioned that Rhaegar told him about changes that would be made when the war was over. I always wondered if Lyanna and Jon were part of those changes.

 

RE: Tywin's corpse, there are theories that he was being slowly poisoned by Oberyn, and that is why he smells and his mouth is curling unnaturally into a smile. I think GRRM intended for the reader to believe that something odd was going on with his corpse, not just natural decomposition. Though you are correct in being skeptical about standing vigil for 7 days and that being pretty ridiculous. 

[Terra Nova]

@Windynights:

 

(more on his/her spoiler part)

yes, add to that Oberyn sharing a meal with Tywin and after that remarking to Tyrion "your father won't live forever" or something along those lines, plus Tyrion's thought about finding Tywin 'where he knew he would have been'.

That some of Tyrion's thoughts are hidden to the viewer itself is seen also in Dance (not for Shimpy)

when he refers to Young Griff as 'the prince' after beating Haldon and making him confess

[Haleth]

I don't think talking about the poison speculation needs to be tagged, does it? It's just a fan theory at this point. It's not one I subscribe to, it seems an unnecessary complication, but you never know. I think the rapid decomposition is (as my grandma would say) Tywin's badness coming out for all to see. And smell.

[mac123x]

Shimpy is past all the "evidence" for the poison speculation, so I don't think it needs to be spoiler tagged.  It's one of the wilder theories out there. It's basically:

1.  Tywin had breakfast with Oberyn

2.  Tywin was on the privy when Tyrion killed him

3.  Tywin's body decayed in an unexpected fashion.

 

Counter arguments are:

1.  The breakfast occurred before Joffrey's wedding, so the time between alleged poisoning and alleged onset of symptoms is pretty long.

2.  People do that as part of their normal lives.  Tyrion even thinks to himself (after killing Shae) that he knows where his father is, so it could be that Tywin routinely takes a bathroom break before he goes to bed. 

3.  What sort of poison has continuing effects after the victim has died?

 

I suppose "magic" answers those objections, and Qyburn did say that Oberyn might have used a spell to delay the effects of the manticore venom on the Mountain.  Theoretically Oberyn could have used some time-delayed poison, hoping that he'd be well away from Kings Landing by the time Tywin croaked.

 

I just don't buy it.  It's stringing together some unrelated bits of info into a convoluted plot.  As Signmund Freud said, "sometimes a rotting corpse is just a rotting corpse," or words to that effect.

[jellyroll2]

I love that theory about the poisoning. Don't know if I adhere to it and one of those things that people could connect dots with that were never intended to be connected. But I still love it so much. Plus think back to Jaime first arriving in KL and being told that his father was having dinner with Oberyn & Mace and he thought it was strange. That happened after the PW. Then Pycelle mentions that poison going missing. Tyrion has time to have a conversation and then strangle a woman and all that time Tywin is sitting on the privy? Sounds like constipation to me. Not like he's in there reading Automotive Weekly.

I'm not saying it's definite. I'm just saying means, motive and opportunity. *evil grin*

Edited November 5, 2015 by jellyroll2

[stillshimpy]

That's an interesting theory, but for all the reasons stated above, it doesn't seem too terribly likely.

 

I think GRRM intended for the reader to believe that something odd was going on with his corpse, not just natural decomposition. Though you are correct in being skeptical about standing vigil for 7 days and that being pretty ridiculous.

Well he certainly intended something, because boy did he ever linger over the scene for an almost silly level of time. Between that and the "Oh hell to the no, no one would take seven days before sticking a body in the ground, on a pyre or into a crypt!" and that's also underlined by the discussion of Quentin Hightower saving Oldtown from the Grey Scale plague (<--- a thing so oddly handled in the series that they went kind of a long without mentioning it, until they seemingly couldn't stop mentioning it).

I do get that we're supposed to think that Tywin is almost mocking them in their ineptitude following his death. But you can't keep a corpse lying about for a week without nearly everyone hurling when in proximity of it. Every now and then something would get into our garage and leave this cruel life behind while in there and we pretty much always found them, not because the field mouse (so about the size of hefty dried date) would kick up enough of a stink that a three car garage become really unpleasant to be in.

Honestly, I hope there turns out to be some point to that very long lingering over the Once and former Tywin, because I spent most of my time trying to willfully ignore "Holy shit, no one with an iota of sense would do that...." but particularly not in a time when they worried so much about disease. Holy buckets.

Although, I don't even come close to claiming to know much about poisons and corpses are sometimes found in a mummified state, vs. a fully decomposed one, but (spoiler alert) that doesn't happen in cities by the water. Yikes. Plus, for extra "Oh for goodness sake...what???" the story has it bucketing down rain for much of that time.

It was a strange set of back-to-back chapters.

Also, the weird thing about the jailer with the gold stash under his overflowing chamber pot and an old coin with something that marked it as being from High Garden was really interesting to me. But instead of having anyone other than Cersei dwell on that, it was back to the Corpse Report: The Unending Stinking Vigil.

Blech.

ETA:

Tyrion has time to have a conversation and then strangle a woman and all that time Tywin is sitting on the privy?

Heh. Yeah, in the days before copious amounts of clean drinking water, Tywin being in there for a long time would have been perfectly ordinary for a man half his age.

About a half a dozen pages back or so, I mentioned that I know far too many historical details: Like why being the Groom of the Stool was considered a very honored position: You had the King's ear (and hopefully a nosegay on hand) for really long periods of time.

Edited November 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I didn't read the end of Storm. Is shimpy supposed to know who the undergaoler is?

[Haleth]

Eh, I think the gold coin was just another red herring to feed into Cersei's paranoia. I don't think we can even rely on the report that it was found in the gaoler's apartment. Qyburn isn't exactly an ethical source. He already knows how to manipulate her.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Well, Jaime thinks to himself while talking with one of the old gaolers that he knows who the gaoler that went missing and had the coin is. I think it is pretty much accepted that it was

Varys, and he planted the coin to sow more discord between the Lannisters and Tyrells.

Edited November 5, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[WindyNights]

In an interview GRRM has confirmed that the undegaoler was Varys.