Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Triskan]

Okay, okay, sorry for that bit that is totally out of topic but today the BBC announced that they'll make a TV adapation of "His Dark Materials"... I just cant contain my excitement and I want to scream the new around ! Looking forward for the opening of a thread for this here at PreviouslyTV !

 

Back to Asoiaf... I'm really wondering what shimpy's reaction to

Euron and the Kingsmoot

will be ! 

 

I think she'll guess by herself that they'll probably appear next season ! 

[Which Tyler]

Dude, I completely read those both, thank you for the clues, Which Tyler. I also got from the coin symbolism and that it might be Jaqen Hagar , but for the life of me, I didn't connect that description to who Jaqen morphs into, that's why I asked if it was a Faceless Man.

Hey, it's one of the few things I went back and re-read once I joined the online fandom and had these things pointed out to me. I still haven't done a read through in full knowledge of the existence of various theories (or partial knowledge; I doubt anyone anywhere has a full knowledge of most of the theories). I'm looking to do that read-through once we have a date for Winds.

Okay, okay, sorry for that bit that is totally out of topic but today the BBC announced that they'll make a TV adapation of "His Dark Materials"... I just cant contain my excitement and I want to scream the new around ! Looking forward for the opening of a thread for this here at PreviouslyTV !

Oooh, great news - I always felt that the Golden Compass - for all it's flaws, was good enough to get the sequels done; but that USA was the wrong country to do it, and that it suits TV better than film.

I'm doing pretty well for book conversions currently; Last Kingdom on the Beeb, Dark materials on the Beeb, Shannara (guilty pleasure - hey, I was a tween; don't judge me!) on MTV, American Gods on Starz... Just need someone to pick up the Warlord Chronicles, the Gentleman Bastards or Fitz and the Fool and I'll be a very happy boy.

Oh, and someone somewhere (not Sky) needs to do Nation properly. That one deserves a respectful adaptation to the big screen.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Which Tyler

[Haleth]

Yeah, I didn't catch that the Alchemist was Jaqen either, then I reread his description after changing his face.  Yup, that's him alright.  I can't remember what his assignment was though.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Haleth

[Terra Nova]

Actually, it's not a real 'law' that a women cannot inherit the Iron Throne, but it's true than in several occasions Great Councils have repeatedly skipped over women with equal or much better claims than their male relatives. The line of succession can go through a woman, to her sons, but not to her directly. If I remember correctly this happened in Egg's case too.

So the thing with the Targaryen is that a woman comes after all her male relatives, regardless how close they are in the line of succession. If the king's only offspring is a woman, than the Throne passes to his male brothers, or their sons, or his sisters' sons. If none of them is available, then the line traces back to the king's uncles, their sons, his aunts' sons. Or they grandsons. Like Rhaella Targaryen and Bobby Baratheon *cough cough*.

Problems may only arise in case of a very interbred family, with maybe a claimant having a third son as grandfather but a firstborn grandmother and another a second son as grandfather and a grandma that is a second cousin twice removed and shenanigans like these...

[jellyroll2]

They actually didn't create that law when they created the kingdom. Jaeharys I sort of set a precedent when he chose (I think this is the order) his second son as heir over his deceased first son's daughter (his heir's heir) and then the Dance of the Dragons pretty much sealed the deal. Plus it's not actually a law, more like precedent. And a foggy one at that as you start to dig down into it. Are no females to rule ever? If there are no male Targs left, only females but male Targ descendents who aren't Targs by name,  they have precedent over the direct female Targ? Perfect example, under that precedent, does Stannis have claim over Dany?

Edited November 3, 2015 by jellyroll2

[bobbybuilderton]

Plus, here's another area where I just tripped myself up mentally: I figured if it was Jaqen then he'd only be killing Pate if Pate pretty much had it coming for some reason and it would specifically be for justice/vengeance. . .

.

From what I understand, this assumption was made from information on the show and how they handled something arya does. I can't say what I'd like to say since its ahead of where you are, so I'll just say that the show is not exactly helpful for predicting things about the books

[stillshimpy]

Yes, the Targaryen habit was like that of the Egyptians -- marrying brother to sister -- but in their case it was because the pharaohs practiced that. No one is entirely sure why, but it may have been that they put themselves forth as gods made flesh and therefore, no one was worthy of marrying a god, other than another god. Or it might have had something to do with an attempt a matriarchal society (very long, detailed explanation there) but truthfully, even Egyptologists aren't sure why the Kings and Queens married their siblings, or sometimes their children. They just did.

But it also led to things like ....wow....the way King Tut really looked was probably darned near frightening to behold. Poor kid had a cleft palate and a clubfoot.

Moving on from there, in the "Wow, the Targs really were not doing themselves many or any favors and it's good that they did occasionally marry outside of their family, because damn."

Oh good, I'm not the only one who thought "Coin? That's a Faceless Man....? But I don't think that's Jaqen...?" and I guess it totally is.

I have finished the Dornish chapter and poor Doran has his gouty work cut out for him, as the Sand Snakes are far more interesting in this book than they were in their onscreen depictions. Although, Lady Tyene's mother having been a Septa...I guess I don't understand what a Septa is....or do I and that means that Oberyn totally impregnated what amounted to a nun? Yikes.

Also, you should have seen my face over the "Sarella? Who the hell is Sarella and what's her game?" Poor Prince Doran, he's certainly beset on all sides and of course the poor man's crippled by gout (which YOUCH...that is supposed to be insanely painful stuff) ....and is the only person in the mix who seems to think first and risk war only as a last measure. Whereas everyone else in Dorne seems to have been itching for any excuse to pick a fight and Tyrion handing over Myrella to marry the Prince of Dorne really makes for an interesting "Wow, so another player enters the game?"

Okay, I've had my first Cersei POV chapter and that was....different. I'm sure my opinion will change here, but she was so oddly pathetic in it. All puffed up and ordering people around and she's completely treated as an afterthought by all and sundry. Then the super pathetic "After my Lady Mother died...." from Cersei who apparently just gets it on as a power play left, right and center and she's childishly convinced herself that Tywin -- who went to his crappy death trying to tell Tyrion he was no son of his (meaning, he thinks his wife cheated on him) -- hasn't had sex in thirty years? Okey dokey.

I almost wanted to feel sorry for her, but she's impossible to view sympathetically.

So the Dornish chapter was great and really painted Dorne very vividly. The Sand Snakes were actually freaking scary in their individual ways. Lady Nymeria, Lady Tyene and Obarra. Funny how the least frightening out of them is the most openly threatening.

Biggest surprise, there's a Brienne POV? Awesome!! I hope. I just started that chapter.

ETA:

From what I understand, this assumption was made from information on the show and how they handled something arya does. I can't say what I'd like to say since its ahead of where you are, so I'll just say that the show is not exactly helpful for predicting things about the books

Thank you :-) I had already started to get a sense of that from Dorne: Now with five times more plotting, intrigue and danger. I loved how poor freaking Doran immediately had to be examined by a Maester to make sure the child of the Septa, Lady Tyene, had not poisoned him while asking for a blessing.

Cersei, you are so out of your freaking league with this crew.

Edited November 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Reader of Books]

Laws are established through the legitimacy gained by the acceptance of precedence, in the absence of a parliamentary or representative democracy.

 

'Nearest male relative' means 'no female'. This is confirmed through Archmaester Glyndayn's commentaries. The only way to change that is by establishing a new precedent. The only way to do this is through legitimacy earned at a time of crisis or through right of conquest.

[Triskan]

Although, Lady Tyene's mother having been a Septa...I guess I don't understand what a Septa is....or do I and that means that Oberyn totally impregnated what amounted to a nun? Yikes.

 

Yep, that's it ! 

 

My main issue with the Sand Snakes is Tyene : in the books she's that fair blonde blue-eyed innocent looking girl, which contrasts a lot with the darker tones of Dornish people, and I wished they kept her looks, because I adore the (even though cheesy) image of that deadly woman that looks so frail and innocent !

 

Well... when I mean "main issue", I mean "main issue" with the casting... as for the writing choices, I have a lot of other issues, but I trust they can redeem themselves with their portrayal next season.

 

Biggest surprise, there's a Brienne POV? Awesome!! I hope. I just started that chapter.

 

Well, I for one dont share that opinion at all... ^^

 

Everyone's here bashing the Iron-Born PoV, but for me, it's Brienne's chapters that are really a chore to read ! But I hope you'll enjoy them !

Edited November 3, 2015 by Triskan

[Terra Nova]

Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was was discarded twice, Egg's female cousins too, in no small part because their father was mentaly challenged

Rhaegar himself was plotting to overthrow his father through a council that would have declared him mad and unfit to rule

and after the Dance the claim of the only female heir was so shaky she was married to the heir of the losing side. So yeah, a point could be made about Stannis superceding a female of a mad branch of the family, in a council.

But I guess this debate is not really useful in this topic.

@shimpy

Mad, deformed and mentallly disabled Targs are well known in Westerosi history precising because of the inbreeding, stemming from the concept of Valyrians as the superior race. I mean, the Mad King dispatched Lord Baratheon to Essos in the hope of finding a suitable bride with Valyrian blood for Rhaegar before setting on Elia (part Targ herself).

And you also met Doran's daughter the Princess Arianne!

As for Tywin last comment. , a similar rebuttal was told to Jaime when he refused to leave the Kingsguard, so I doubt he really questions Tyrion''s paternity. He would have drowned him as soon as possible, otherwise.

Also yeah, a septa is a nun. Totes.

[Protar]

I didn't like the first few Brienne chapters, but they definitely pick up for me.

[Reader of Books]

But I guess this debate is not really useful in this topic.

The point I was making is that Damphair should not be dismissed based on that point. Does it make him an unsympathetic character? Yes, absolutely. The problem is when people use that determination to inform their response to the story that is being told through his eyes. That should stand on its own merits. While it is far from GRRM's best plotline, there are others that are more problematic and people seem to be prepared to give them a pass because the characters are sympathetic.

[mac123x]

I'm wondering when / if shimpy will make the Sarella = Alleras connection.  I actually figured that one out in the first Dorne chapter, which is probably the first time I noticed something like that before reading it in an on-line theory.  Also, I'm anticipating a bad reaction about Victarion's wife's death.

 

I have finished the Dornish chapter and poor Doran has his gouty work cut out for him, as the Sand Snakes are far more interesting in this book than they were in their onscreen depictions. Although, Lady Tyene's mother having been a Septa...I guess I don't understand what a Septa is....or do I and that means that Oberyn totally impregnated what amounted to a nun? Yikes.

 

It's possible that Tyene's mom didn't become a septa until after her affair with Oberyn, though I'm probably being charitable.

 

When I first saw the "hi, I'm actor so-and-so, and I've been cast as ___ for season 5" video, my reaction to Tyene was "I guess they'll put a wig on her".  Nope!  I should have realized then that they'd be the Sand Snakes In Name Only.

[jellyroll2]

Yeah, the Brienne chapters can be a little weary because you know the answer to her question. But there's so much detail involved, it's interesting to see the fallout from the Wot5K as she travels, plus it's really interesting just being in her head. They were chapters that grew on me.

 

I'm so glad you're getting to see the real Dorne! That version in the show was not Dorne by any stretch of the imagination. I agree about the casting of the Sand Snakes. I do wish they'd kept their variety. They all look different but you can see Oberyn in every single one of them as they all share a common feature. Sarella is the fourth Sand Snake. Won't say anything else about that. And you've met Arianne! Did you already know Doran had a daughter? Her not being cast in the show upset a hell of a lot of people (including me). I think the poor portrayal of all things Dorne in season 5 is my single biggest gripe with the show.

[ambi76]

Pathetic. Now that's interesting. But I guess many people had similar feelings and flipped the fuck out over it because pathetic was not an adjective they would have given to Cersei before being in her head. I usually go with coco-banana-nuts. I always suspected she was a bit off. But wow, totally paranoidly bonkers and I for one like it.

 

About feeling bad that no one respects her authorithian!11! Yeah, she has same valid grievances about her lot in life but since she blows all of them up by 700% and adds some nonsensical ones for good measure, nobody cares.

 

Eh, I was just defending the Brienne chapters in my spoilers above but on re-read, yeah, the first one is really a bit clunky, though I think they get better and better over the book too.

Edited November 3, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

Oh no, I didn't feel bad for Cersei that no one respects her authority, I found her pathetic because the vision she has of herself in that moment -- of being the person naturally thought of as being in charge -- is just in such direct contrast to what is actually going on. But it wasn't a case of feeling sorry for her, as finding her rather...again pathetic. Pitiable in that "oh good grief, I cringe on your behalf." She so puffed up with self-importance and yes, it was startling to find out "Oh....she's crazy? Interesting. Makes sense, but I hadn't fully gotten that yet."

 

The point I was making is that Damphair should not be dismissed based on that point. Does it make him an unsympathetic character? Yes, absolutely. The problem is when people use that determination to inform their response to the story that is being told through his eyes.

Well different people will have reasons for dismissing anyone or anything they like in a work of fiction, as it really is about what an individual finds compelling or interesting. So, I could dismiss him on any number of things. He has a dumb name. Dismissed! Could reasonably be my own reaction, as it is mine and not dictated by anyone but me.

As it happens, I feel perfectly comfortable dismissing him in particular over being so determined to prop up the Patriarchy because he has no right to be doing so. He's literally ready to start a civil war to make sure that the Iron Islanders don't have to follow a woman, Balon (an jackass if ever there was one) had no personal problem with and Exceptionally DumbName is actually terribly het up over the concept of Asha/Yara (It's Asha in the book, Yara in the show, nksarmi ) specifically because of her lady parts.

"Not a ruling Vagina! Never!" Yeah. I totally can dismiss the guy based on that as being repulsive. You, of course, can feel differently, as is your right, but I'll stick to the "DumbHair Zealot with Enhanced Misogyny while supporting the Patriarchy...exceeding that of the woman's own father....die of irony poisoning, when the Pater ditches the need for the Patriarchy, you're just clinging to it 'cause you hate girls. Also, dry your hair."

We'll see how the chapters go, but right now, I can and do currently dismiss him as uninteresting. He's welcome to change that on his own. Perhaps a hair dryer and a women's study course might help him.

 

I'm so glad you're getting to see the real Dorne! That version in the show was not Dorne by any stretch of the imagination.

So am I! The character would mention Dorne and it would sound so interesting. Now, one of my friends actually toured the castle in which the bulk of the Dorne scenes were filmed, and she's a professional photographer. So she shared the album after the episodes aired and I can't fault them on the location they chose in terms of it being beautiful.

I'm just sort of psyched to read about it. Suicidal blood oranges and all.

 

As for Tywin last comment. , a similar rebuttal was told to Jaime when he refused to leave the Kingsguard, so I doubt he really questions Tyrion''s paternity. He would have drowned him as soon as possible, otherwise.

Thanks, Terra Nova, good to know and I guess I was always going with the: The only thing worse than being cheated upon would be the entire countryside knowing about it. So since he couldn't prove it, Tywin kept the shame rather than doubling-down on it.

But you're right, he did essentially disown Jaime, it just wasn't quite the same thing. In that terrible, horrible, made-me-wince and gasp scene from both the show and the books (and the instance in which my heart truly just freaking bled for Tyrion) and the "waddling" comment, I really got the impression that that was the case. That Tywin really was of the "you are not the seed of my loins" mindset.

ETA: By the way, for all my "Oh, hooray! Another woman's POV and it won't be about trying to draw the male gaze on any level!" joy....so far, a bit ...dull.

Edited November 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I am SO happy you have been introduced to the real Dorne.  As a total DS9 fan, I was giddy when I realized Alexander Siddig was going to be playing Doran and then Dorne was just - well whoever said it might be the biggest disappointment of the series might be right.  There are other contenders - but Dorne has to be in the top 5 at least.

 

In one chapter, you've already learned that Doran has a daughter that the show - for some freaking reason that I will never understand - decided to leave out.  And the Sand Snakes of the show are just so wrong.  Their uniformed purpose (avenging their father) but totally different personalities is part of what made them so fun.  And while Oberyn might not be the likable character of the show - I am fascinated by vastly different taste in woman (and the actor was perfect for the book part as far as I'm concerned) and the fact that his bastard daughters are so opening accepted and respected (for their deadliness!) in Dorne.  Also potential spoiler for Oberyn regarding his children:

he only fathers daughters, correct?

. I just find Dorne of the books so interesting in general. 

 

There is so much more to say about Dorne, but I think you have already hit the nail on the head: five times more plotting, intrigue, and danger.  :)  It's almost makes you wonder if the Targs didn't bother to conquer them because they are just so freaking uncontrollable!

[jellyroll2]

For your spoiler, yes, he's only got daughters. 8 of them I believe. That's even said in the show so I don't think that's a spoiler.

 

Dude, Dorne was the one place the Targs couldn't conquer with dragons. With fucking dragons. When they went there the ruler at the time was an 80+ year old, half blind fat old woman who literally told them to GTFO and don't come back. Someone had asked if they've only been under control of the IT for about a century and that's correct. They married into it. That was Egg's grandmother actually. Before that, they couldn't be taken or held. The one time they were conquered by Targs....didn't end well for anyone on the Targ side. Oberyn's scorpion in the bed story anyone? The Dornish don't fuck around.

[stillshimpy]

Actually, the book (the last book) stated at Oberyn's introduction -- via Tyrion's POV -- that he had only had daughters. It was an interesting choice to make considering he's also the first character whose sexual orientation (bisexual) is openly stated and in the same grouping of sentences, it's stated that Oberyn only has daughters by a variety of women.

[Reader of Books]

 Yeah. I totally can dismiss the guy based on that as being repulsive. 

As a character sure, and I agree. But what I did was look at it as an insight into the head of one of the people who throughout history have driven that "Not a ruling vagina, never!" (as definitely suffered by the Empress Matilda and so many others), or "Not a proper 'man'." (as probably suffered by Caesars Elagobalus and Nero among others.)

 

I was just concerned that dismissing the character might lead to dismissing the story. I have always been curious as to why so many have expressed distaste for the Ironborn story and have oft wondered whether this guy's misogyny and religious fanaticism were the causes for that. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Terra Nova]

@Reader of Books:

 

now, I didn't want to sound rude, and I apologize if I came off that way. I was fearing a derail in the endless debate about Daenerys claim for the IT, which usually devolves in 'Stannis is a usurper! Targs too! Well, he's a kinslayer anyway!'

I totally agree with you, my first reply was more a minor nitpick about the rule not being established at the moment of the creation of the IT, but more coming from a series of events over 300 years of rule and successions.

 

These characters are sons and daughters of their time. Tyrion is a classist, Ned, one of the few who actually gives a damn about his smallfolk, still treat them with some sort of paternalism, the whole society is sexist as hell. And religion and superstition are the rule, not the exception.

 

 

@Shimpy:

 

yeah, my opinion is that Tywin wanted Tyrion not to be his, but deep down he knew he really is his son. If he would have been convinced of the contrary, he could have arranged a small 'hunting accident', or forced him to join the maesters at the Citadel or the Night's Watch. I think the only shade of rediming quality in Tywin was is genuine, true love for Johanna. Which I think was totally reciprocated. But of course, in such a bigot society, a dwarf is a monster sent as divine punishment, a freak whose every breath shamed House Lannister (also he was a 'kinslayer' already ^^), so there's just no way Tywin would have ever loved Tyrion, let alone admitting he resembles him in basically everything, while his golden boy Jaime is actually the one less similar to his father.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Terra Nova

[mrspidey]

 I have always been curious as to why so many have expressed distaste for the Ironborn story and have oft wondered whether this guy's misogyny and religious fanaticism were the causes for that. 

For me those certainly are the main reasons for disliking them. The other one is their open refusal to live off of anything but other people's suffering.  And to make matters worse, they're cowards because as soon as someone sends soldiers to defend the villages that they pillage, they cut tail and run. They don't have any redeeming values which makes them completely uninteresting to me. No George, I do not want to get in their heads. There is nothing in there for me. 

[nksarmi]

Regarding Tyrion and Tywin... I actually think Cersei is the one most like her father to be honest.  Regardless of the fact that book Tyrion is a grayer character than the show - I still see him as having potential for good.  On the other hand, I really do view Tywin as straight up evil - amusingly even more so than his golden boy son who actually tossed a boy out a window meaning to kill him but only crippling him instead. 

 

Yes Cersei is batshit crazy, but if she wasn't - she'd be Tywin.  Everything we hear about Tywin - from the destruction of an entire house to what he did to Tysha to what he probably freaking ordered the Mountain to do to the woman Rhaegar dared to choose over Cersei to him winning a war by supporting the most vile of mutineers and traitors points to him being one evil bastard in my mind.  Everyone (fandom and characters) seem to see him as this good ruler when in reality, he really isn't - he's just willing to stoop to the lowest of levels to achieve whatever he wants to achieve.  He comes out on top but he burns everyone in the process, ending up with no one who is truly loyal to him - which is why it isn't surprising at all that a family member killed him.  He was long overdue and Cersei is as well.

Edited November 3, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

As a character sure, and I agree. But what I did was look at it as an insight into the head of one of the people who throughout history have driven that "Not a ruling vagina, never!" (as definitely suffered by the Empress Matilda and so many others), or "Not a proper 'man'." (as probably suffered by Caesars Elagobalus and Nero among others.)

Well, and that's an interesting idea. However, I don't personally credit George R. R. Martin with having any particularly fresh, or illuminating insight into that mindset.

He's a fascinating world-builder, a good writer and an interesting storyteller, but I personally find that he does not seem to have a particularly fresh view into the mind of women. I give him a lot of credit for attempting to introduce a more gender-balanced tale to the fantasy genre than is often told. I think he absolutely has a lot of sympathy for women within an extreme patriarchal structure, and just by creating characters like Dany, the Sand Snakes -- even someone like Cersei -- and I appreciate that about him. I don't credit him with having a particularly emotional astute understanding of women, but I do think the man is far from being a misogynist. Therefore, I don't think he's necessarily going to offer a deep insight into something that he actively attempts to reject.

He's just more likely to explore why it actually sucks as a mindset for both genders, both in theory and in practice.

Similarly, I don't think he's a person who has a particularly deep understanding of the workings of Faith, butI do think he has an interest in the corrupting influences of religion.

He's telling an interesting story, but I'm not personally finding him to be offering anything that I find to suggest he is an extraordinarily emotionally insightful writer.

Also, I was just (broken record time) talking to Mya about the age of the children within the story and that apparently George R. R. Martin has long since copped to the fact that he realized too late that he made them too young. That's not a fatal error, it just does tell me about how much research for accuracy he likely put into his creations.

I could be doing the man a tremendous disservice and it isn't as if I plan on skipping the chapters, but I do feel safe in saying at this particular time, I do not think he is going to be the source to offer particularly accurate or fresh insight into historical mindsets. The dude couldn't even get the "Yeah, George, seven is too young for that level of emotional development..." of it all down. "So, I'm gonna guess you didn't really hang around too many nine-year-olds, because even adjusting for a higher level of autonomy being likely ...brain development really wasn't that much different, just societal expectations were."

Plus, that ship sort of sailed when someone mentioned that he had the notion that there was no concept of adolescence...and you know, I really am enjoying the man's storytelling abilities, but I truly don't have him confused with historian for a great many reasons.

So those are some of my reasons, I can't speak to the reasons of others. Perhaps they just find Damphair to be as interesting and appealing as his name suggests?

Plus, I will be brutally honest: The Iron Born fall into the category for my least favorite trope of both scifi and fantasy: A culture defined by it's ideas about what combat should be. I found the Dothraki similarly "Oh...look...this story's version of Klingons...honor in violence, gotcha" but did think that having them viewed primarily through Dany's POV was interesting.

I will credit George Martin with something that can be difficult for writer's to fully bring across: He has a deep understanding, in my opinion, of the things that motivate people to want to belong and then to eventual reject that very same thing as being without a great deal of longterm merit. So I take it back, I do think he has an emotional astute insight to offer, I just don't think understanding the mind's with a patriarchal structure is necessarily his forte.

Edited November 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Hecate7]

Yes Cersei is batshit crazy, but if she wasn't - she'd be Tywin.  Everything we hear about Tywin - from the destruction of an entire house to what he did to Tysha to what he probably freaking ordered the Mountain to do to the woman Rhaegar dared to choose over Cersei to him winning a war by supporting the most vile of mutineers and traitors points to him being one evil bastard in my mind.  Everyone (fandom and characters) seem to see him as this good ruler when in reality, he really isn't - he's just willing to stoop to the lowest of levels to achieve whatever he wants to achieve.  He comes out on top but he burns everyone in the process, ending up with no one who is truly loyal to him - which is why it isn't surprising at all that a family member killed him.  He was long overdue and Cersei is as well.

 

 

I agree so much with this! It has always seemed to me that Tywin and Cersei both go through life causing as much damage as possible, even when it's completely unnecessary. They both justify it by saying that "everyone not us is an enemy," or that they have to inspire fear to rule, but really it just seems that they can't even puzzle out a way to deal with other people that doesn't involve killing, torturing, maiming, or starving them.

[Protar]

Well if any book in the series is going to convince you of ASOIAF's value as a feminist piece I think it is definitely AFFC. When you're finished the series there's a lot of tumblr essays I'd love you to read :P

[Reader of Books]

 

I was fearing a derail in the endless debate about Daenerys claim for the IT, which usually devolves in 'Stannis is a usurper! Targs too! Well, he's a kinslayer anyway!'

 

 

That's fine - I know of the parochial polarised arguments of which you speak. Far too much yelling and far too little discussion for my liking. Dany can force change, when she has a force that results in acceptance of legitimacy. 

 

For me those certainly are the main reasons for disliking them. The other one is their open refusal to live off of anything but other people's suffering.  And to make matters worse, they're cowards because as soon as someone sends soldiers to defend the villages that they pillage, they cut tail and run. They don't have any redeeming values which makes them completely uninteresting to me. No George, I do not want to get in their heads. There is nothing in there for me. 

 

Disliking them sure, its the dismissing of the story I am speaking on. Jaime and Cersei are no less interesting to me because I have a distaste for tossing small humans from high places or the slaughter of Robbert's bastards.

 

Well, and that's an interesting idea. However, I don't personally credit George R. R. Martin with having any particularly fresh, or illuminating insight into that mindset.

 

Yeah, I think it is what he tried to do. I don't think it worked very well. It was a great opportunity to look into someone who was trying to enforce gender supremacy in a realm that valued might above all - as evidenced by Balon's support for Asha, and her crew's support for her as well. He missed the mark a bit.

 

Much is spoken about with regards to the practices of inheritance in Dorne, but far more interesting to me is the story of the women of Bear Island and their struggles against the Iron Born raiders. Further to that is Lady Maege's refusal to even tell who her children's father was, and despite that, her bastard children are accepted as legitimate even by Catelyn. Not delving into that is a real lost opportunity.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Reader of Books

[stillshimpy]

Well if any book in the series is going to convince you of ASOIAF's value as a feminist piece I think it is definitely AFFC. When you're finished the series there's a lot of tumblr essays I'd love you to read :P

Awesome. I would absolutely be interested in them and yes, that's part of the reason I was glad to see Brienne's POV and Cersei's POV -- so much of Catelyn's POV involved a lot of "it's all my fault" type of regrets and her entire own identity is defined by her relationship to everyone else. Other than that there's Dany, who is a developing person, Sansa who has more agency but is not one of the stronger POV chapters, at least thus far. Arya who becomes the BAMF role-breaker, but who actually I think has some of the best emotional development in terms of realistic emotional progression. Dany who is also a person who is developing person.

So even though Cersei is showing BIG SIGNS of being guano levels of insane, I'm interested to see what he does with the "established person, with identity not centered around wife and mother" adult women POVs.

[Triskan]

Well, even though these characters have a less significant role, there are two other women PoV that you'll encounter this book ! ;)

 

I hope you'll find them interesting ! 

 

For those wondering who I'm taking about (or shimpy if you want to discover some PoV ahead) :

Arianne and Asha

.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Triskan

[WindyNights]

Well, and that's an interesting idea. However, I don't personally credit George R. R. Martin with having any particularly fresh, or illuminating insight into that mindset.

He's a fascinating world-builder, a good writer and an interesting storyteller, but I personally find that he does not seem to have a particularly fresh view into the mind of women. I give him a lot of credit for attempting to introduce a more gender-balanced tale to the fantasy genre than is often told. I think he absolutely has a lot of sympathy for women within an extreme patriarchal structure, and just by creating characters like Dany, the Sand Snakes -- even someone like Cersei -- and I appreciate that about him. I don't credit him with having a particularly emotional astute understanding of women, but I do think the man is far from being a misogynist. Therefore, I don't think he's necessarily going to offer a deep insight into something that he actively attempts to reject.

He's just more likely to explore why it actually sucks as a mindset for both genders, both in theory and in practice.

Similarly, I don't think he's a person who has a particularly deep understanding of the workings of Faith, butI do think he has an interest in the corrupting influences of religion.

He's telling an interesting story, but I'm not personally finding him to be offering anything that I find to suggest he is an extraordinarily emotionally insightful writer.

Also, I was just (broken record time) talking to Mya about the age of the children within the story and that apparently George R. R. Martin has long since copped to the fact that he realized too late that he made them too young. That's not a fatal error, it just does tell me about how much research for accuracy he likely put into his creations.

I could be doing the man a tremendous disservice and it isn't as if I plan on skipping the chapters, but I do feel safe in saying at this particular time, I do not think he is going to be the source to offer particularly accurate or fresh insight into historical mindsets. The dude couldn't even get the "Yeah, George, seven is too young for that level of emotional development..." of it all down. "So, I'm gonna guess you didn't really hang around too many nine-year-olds, because even adjusting for a higher level of autonomy being likely ...brain development really wasn't that much different, just societal expectations were."

Plus, that ship sort of sailed when someone mentioned that he had the notion that there was no concept of adolescence...and you know, I really am enjoying the man's storytelling abilities, but I truly don't have him confused with historian for a great many reasons.

So those are some of my reasons, I can't speak to the reasons of others. Perhaps they just find Damphair to be as interesting and appealing as his name suggests?

Plus, I will be brutally honest: The Iron Born fall into the category for my least favorite trope of both scifi and fantasy: A culture defined by it's ideas about what combat should be. I found the Dothraki similarly "Oh...look...this story's version of Klingons...honor in violence, gotcha" but did think that having them viewed primarily through Dany's POV was interesting.

I will credit George Martin with something that can be difficult for writer's to fully bring across: He has a deep understanding, in my opinion, of the things that motivate people to want to belong and then to eventual reject that very same thing as being without a great deal of longterm merit. So I take it back, I do think he has an emotional astute insight to offer, I just don't think understanding the mind's with a patriarchal structure is necessarily his forte.

Interesting, but I will say that GRRM originally thought his story would have time fly by. His original plan was to show all the Starks growing from kids to adulthood but then he realized that he had to keep following up each event and couldn't time-skip as far as he wanted so in an attempt to remedy this he planned a time-skip between ASOS and AFFC. Then he realized he couldn't make it work as hard as he tried. And that lead to AFFC getting delayed so much until he decided to get rid of the time skip altogether and power through it.

[Protar]

I'm pretty sure that by number of Chapters, Feast has more female POVs than male.

[SeanC]

I'm pretty sure that by number of Chapters, Feast has more female POVs than male.

I added this up once, and it does.  By a pretty decent margin.  It's the only book in the series where female POVs predominate.  

ADWD is, conversely, the most lopsidedly male.

[chandraReborn]

Cersei becomes more interesting if you read her as someone struggling with gender dysphoria in a society where an extreme gender binary exists. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by chandraReborn

[John Potts]

Loved the fact that Cersei is shown as every bit as dumb as Tyrion (and for that matter Tywin) said she was. Or rather, she believes she is smarter than everyone else and doesn't consider that things might not go the way she wants them to, which causes all her problems. For example:

Unleashing the Church Militant to undermine Margery? What could possibly go wrong with unleashing a bunch of religious fanatics and making accusations of adultery?

 

Protar, When I advised Shimpy to not get her hopes up about future chapters, I wasn't referring to Damphair specifically but the Ironborn in general, because I was pretty sure she'd hate the lot of them (and from her comments so far, I judged correctly).

[bobbybuilderton]

Loved the fact that Cersei is shown as every bit as dumb as Tyrion (and for that matter Tywin) said she was. Or rather, she believes she is smarter than everyone else and doesn't consider that things might not go the way she wants them to, which causes all her problems. For example:

Unleashing the Church Militant to undermine Margery? What could possibly go wrong with unleashing a bunch of religious fanatics and making accusations of adultery?

 

Protar, When I advised Shimpy to not get her hopes up about future chapters, I wasn't referring to Damphair specifically but the Ironborn in general, because I was pretty sure she'd hate the lot of them (and from her comments so far, I judged correctly).

Not sure if that was meant to be a season 5 spoiler, cuz she does that for different reasons in the book. Book 4 spoiler

Cersei just lets them have the military again so that they'll remove a fraction of the crown's debt and acknowledge Tommen as legitimate. Faith Militant really had nothing to do with Margaery.

[Delta1212]

Not sure if that was meant to be a season 5 spoiler, cuz she does that for different reasons in the book. Book 4 spoiler

Cersei just lets them have the military again so that they'll remove a fraction of the crown's debt and acknowledge Tommen as legitimate. Faith Militant really had nothing to do with Margaery.

Well,

she does later compound that initial blunder by trying to use the newly armed Faith against Margaery, but yeah, they were already re-armed for quite possibly an even dumber reason on her part.

That's pretty much the gold standard of dumb Cersei moves, not just because of what a bad idea rearming the Faith is, but because of how pleased with herself she is for striking such a brilliant bargain after she does it

[bobbybuilderton]

Well,

she does later compound that initial blunder by trying to use the newly armed Faith against Margaery, but yeah, they were already re-armed for quite possibly an even dumber reason on her part.

That's pretty much the gold standard of dumb Cersei moves, not just because of what a bad idea rearming the Faith is, but because of how pleased with herself she is for striking such a brilliant bargain after she does it

Yeah I should have been clearer,

they were re-armed for things that had nothing to do with Margaery. I remember reading that exchange and being baffled at how stupid it was. And she even thinks how dumb Maegor was to disarm the Faith (rather than use them for his own ends), instead of considering that maybe he had a good reason for doing it.  The saddest part about it is that it only removed less than a million gold dragons of their debt, when the crown is stated to be 6 million dragons in debt in GoT.

[WindyNights]

1/6 is actually quite a lot.

Imagine if the U.S. could remove one sixth of their debt

I don't think book Tywin ever actually calls out Cersei on being dumber than she actually thinks she is

Anyways Cersei isn't actually dumb so much as

she's rash with awful judgement like Jaime thinks

Edited November 4, 2015 by WindyNights

[bobbybuilderton]

1/6 is actually quite a lot.

Imagine if the U.S. could remove one sixth of their debt

Imagine if the US could remove one sixth of their debt while simultaneously giving fundamentalists of a religion nearly unlimited power. 1/6th is not that much when you consider what it could cost them lol

[Alayne Stone]

Funny story, Shimpy.

 

I had never really connected who The Alchemist was either despite having read the theories and basically just accepted it for being that. But after you typed the description of him as he appeared in Feast, I was like “YUP. OMG YUP. That’s him!”

 

Because the very last chapter I read for Arya in Clash happened to be the chapter Jaquen changed faces in, and it was only on this third read through that I paid any attention to the description of what he looked like.

 

That Areo chapter you read describing Dorne is the chapter I spoiler tagged a page or two ago on being one of the most beautifully written and vivid chapters in the series. And yes, now you have met both the real Sand Snakes (very, very different not only from their show counterparts, but also one another, which I find fascinating) … but also the true heir to Dorne, Arienne Martell! Tyene is probably my favorite Sand Snake. You have no idea how excited I was to find out three would be casted and then when I saw the show incarnation it was just … majorly disappointing.

 

I will wait to comment on the Ironborn chapters until you read more of them.

 

And I’m also not of the camp that does not enjoy Brienne’s chapters. I enjoy them immensely as they provide a wonderful view into the world you don’t get to see very often. But more on that later.

 

Were you completely shocked to see that you’d be reading Cersei and Brienne POV chapters? I was waiting for you to get to that and be like “WHOA” like you were with Jaime.

 

Also Shimpy, I think I will come back after you finish AFFC and have you revisit your opinion on whether or not GRRM has a good insight into the mind of women after you finish this book for the reasons that were already mentioned above … Feast has more female than male POVs. I am very much looking forward to you reading more of the book and I will also probably point you to some interesting Tumblr essays when you have completely your full read through. :)

[mac123x]

Yeah, the Brienne chapters can be a little weary because you know the answer to her question.

 

I disliked the Brienne chapters for a really petty reason:  "I'm looking for a girl of three and ten..." was when I first really noticed the "x and y" affectation, and I couldn't stop noticing it after that.  Upon rereads, GRRM did use that counting structure in the earlier books, but he also used standard numbering (e.g., Tyrion counted the rungs on the ladder the standard "fifty-six, fifty-seven" etc.).  AFFC was where he started using it almost exclusively, and in turn it made me start noticing some of his other irritating idioms.  "Much and more" grates on my nerves, and "words are wind" makes me want to throw things.

Edited November 4, 2015 by mac123x

[Delta1212]

1/6 is actually quite a lot.

Imagine if the U.S. could remove one sixth of their debt

I don't think book Tywin ever actually calls out Cersei on being dumber than she actually thinks she is

Anyways Cersei isn't actually dumb so much as

she's rash with awful judgement like Jaime thinks

I don't know, I feel like someone

who makes poor decisions by being rash and using poor judgement will come to realize that it was a poor decision upon reflection, where Cersei lacks any self awareness really at all and continues to believe herself a master of political manipulation right up to the moment that all of her plots blow up in her face.

I don't know that's necessarily stupidity, but at the very least, Cersei is like a novice chess player of average ability playing against grandmasters and refusing to even consider the possibility that she is not the greatest player of the age who had simply never been given a chance to play properly before until she walks herself right into checkmate.

[WindyNights]

I don't know, I feel like someone

who makes poor decisions by being rash and using poor judgement will come to realize that it was a poor decision upon reflection, where Cersei lacks any self awareness really at all and continues to believe herself a master of political manipulation right up to the moment that all of her plots blow up in her face.

I don't know that's necessarily stupidity, but at the very least, Cersei is like a novice chess player of average ability playing against grandmasters and refusing to even consider the possibility that she is not the greatest player of the age who had simply never been given a chance to play properly before until she walks herself right into checkmate.

She's not so much stupid as her personality is so flawed that it impairs her.

[Dev F]

So the Dornish chapter was great and really painted Dorne very vividly. The Sand Snakes were actually freaking scary in their individual ways. Lady Nymeria, Lady Tyene and Obarra. Funny how the least frightening out of them is the most openly threatening.

 

So . . . this is a good sign for you enjoying the rest of the book more than some folks do. The Dorne storyline in AFFC is, shall we say, not universally beloved, but the fact that you enjoyed the first chapter is a pretty good indication that you will not be one of those who intensely dislike it.

 

Or should I say, one of us who intensely dislike it. :p

 

Don't get me wrong. There's a lot I do like, even in the first Dorne chapter. I like Dorne as a place, as a setting. I find a lot of the characters interesting, the political machinations typically meaty and intriguing. But, well . . . if you asked me to assemble those promising elements in the least dramatic way possible, I would be hard pressed to come closer than what Martin actually wrote in "The Captain of Guards."

 

In other threads I've linked to one of my favorite essays on ASOIAF, which lays out better than I ever could exactly why this chapter drives me so crazy. (The essay is not shimpy safe, but I'll link it again here for anyone else who's curious.) It does so by discussing the difference between how Martin introduces the Starks at the beginning of A Game of Thrones and how he introduces the Martells at the beginning of A Feast for Crows. The Starks are introduced in a chapter told from the perspective of a seven-year-old boy who's going to his first beheading, and every other character is presented through the eyes of the boy who's going through that inherently important and fascinating experience. The Martells, on the other hand, are introduced in a chapter told from the point of view of . . . a guy watching another guy trying to chillax, but other people keep bothering him.

 

So unlike Bran's first chapter, which provides a masterful framework for introducing a slew of characters in a way that immediately underscores why they're important and what they mean to each other, Areo Hotah's first chapter is structured in a way that does precisely the opposite: it specifically chooses for its POV the character who is least connected to what's going on around him, so that when it immediately bombards the reader with six million people and place and events to remember, there's no framework for understanding how or why any of them are important, or why we should care about them. To quote a spoiler-free excerpt from the essay:

 

We find out, at length, that 1) Obara is not just being Obara, she's actually pissed 2) the reason she's pissed is that her father, the Red Viper, is dead 3) the prince was notified of Obara's father's desk in a letter sent by raven, which he was exceedingly reluctant to open 4) the people of Dorne are as pissed about Obara's father's death as Obara is 5) Obara wants the prince, her father's brother, to do something about it, but Hotah isn't letting her talk to the prince because 6) this is the prince's watch-the-kids-splash-in-the-pool-time and nobody interrupts that. Also, 7) the prince has severe gout. It takes quite a while for Martin to get all of this out. Meanwhile, lots of names are spilling. The prince has a daughter named Arianne, with whom Hotah has some kind of connection. Obara wants an army for herself, and one for someone named Nym, and one for someone named Lord Yronwood. There's a place called Sunspear and a guy named Ricasso and a building called the Tower of the Sun, and the prince needs to go there to keep Obara from raising an army but that's where Princess Myrcella of Westeros is, with her Ser Arys Oakheart, whom Hotah figures he'll fight to the death someday, so word will leak back to the Iron Throne that the prince is infirm, and then the prince goes into his lineage and starts talking about his brothers Mors and Olyvar, who died in infancy, and his late sister Elia, whom the Red Viper wanted to avenge, and the Red Viper himself and some dude named Lord Gargalen, and Hotah thinks about the three bells of his hometown, which also have names, and all of these things are coming fast and thick, and it is intensely boring because 1) Martin has not sold us on who any of these characters are 2) there are too fucking many of them to remember and 3) nothing has happened yet, but hey, they're going off to Sunspear and maybe something will happen along the way.

 

It's at this point that Martin spends a good few words on how everybody gets dressed for the trip and what the prince has for breakfast and which kids he says good-bye to.

 

Coincidentally, it's at this point that I began to believe that A FEAST FOR CROWS should have been heavily edited. With a chainsaw.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Dev F

[mac123x]

I agree somewhat with that part you quoted from that essay, but I approached the chapter as occurring in medias res, which I usually like.  I'm asking "who the hell is this and what are they talking about?" but it got me intrigued instead of annoyed.  YMMV.

 

It's at this point that Martin spends a good few words on how everybody gets dressed for the trip and what the prince has for breakfast and which kids he says good-bye to.

 

Coincidentally, it's at this point that I began to believe that A FEAST FOR CROWS should have been heavily edited. With a chainsaw.

Completely agree with that.

[DigitalCount]

I'm so glad shimpy is on Feast now, because I'm very very very interested to see

who she considers to be the valonqar

. I know it tends to be something that's not particularly questioned, but I'm really wondering if she will, or if she'll go in a different direction entirely. IIRC 

she'll have seen the term but not the context for why it's used or what it means just yet

.

 

SUPER excited.

 

shimpy, you're nearing something that I'm kinda passionate about, so forgive my standing just outside of frame grinning like a madman. After all, there's a guy getting skinned on my flag.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Reader of Books]

Aye, a new POV needs a "hook" to get you invested in the story. A slightly different case was 

Brienne because we already had investment in the character.

[Mya Stone]

But if you view the Dornish and Ironborn (POV spoiler for AFFC)

barring Asha, really, who we have met previously

as the giant prologue GRRM wrote them as that grew too big and got dispersed throughout the book, and not as "main" characters, then it does make a lot more sense.

[Haleth]

Is that what happened?  The Dornish and Ironborn chapters were supposed to be prologues?  There is a definite change in AFFC with GRRM writing POV chapters through apparently random characters rather than those whom we've grown to know as "main characters."  Of course there's no way to know this early in the book who the important characters in Dorne and the Iron Islands will be and none of our "main characters" are there to act as our eyes, but a POV from Areo Hotah and Damphair?  Wouldn't we expect to see those lands through the eyes of someone at the center of the action rather than the periphery?  

 

Between the Oldtown prologue and the Dorne and Iron Islands chapters there are a heck of a lot of new characters thrown at us with little context.  This is where the appendices really came in handy.

 

I like the Dornish intrigues and all the strong female characters.  The show disappointed by making the Sand Snakes uniformly cartoonish.  I guess the show writers neglected to read that they were all different.  Also disappointing was that in the show Trystane was Doran's only child.

 

I doubt we'll see it but wouldn't you love to read about a Mel/Damphair zealot face-off?

Edited November 4, 2015 by Haleth

[SeanC]

I think GRRM's goal with the multiple POVs for the new plot lines was to provide a wider sense of the two societies in short order.