Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Protar]

I already talked about Jaime and Cersei's scene in the sept, Haleth.  At some length.  Is there another sept scene? 

 

On the warging, skinwalking, skinchanging, doo-da-doo-da of it all I have this to add:  Okay.  

 

I hope you're not expecting me to remember and use that correctly though.  I'm just proud of myself for not making up a completely ridiculous name for it that involves musical instruments and circus peanuts, because that's usually what we did. 

 

Of course not. It's of little consequence. :P And the fans never use the word skinchanging anyway. Just warging.

[nksarmi]

So Lancel or Loras would have made good "age" matches for Sansa - too bad one is gay and the other was baffing Cersei.

 

You know something just occurred to me in regards to Show Loras - they really did make a mistake by making him the "heir to Highgarden." I know they want to limit their actors, but making him the heir makes all of his actions complete nonsense.  For a third son, his actions don't seem so bad including him thinking he could be in Renly's "king's guard."  For an heir, he would be expected to marry and produce children.  Olenna would have never allowed him to believe he could go about his merry way without "doing his duty."

 

So in the show, forget Cersei, Loras should be well married off - or at least betrothed - and would have likely been able to cover better for the story they give him in season five.  Plus Olenna would have been very reasonable in turning down Tywin's proposed engagement of Loras and Cesei given that she appeared to be past child bearing age (not based on years but that her youngest son in relatively old in the series - Cate's youngest Rickon is much younger than Tommen on the show).

 

So despite all the changes they made to Loras to make him less interesting - they don't really make sense on top of that. Even a non-reader should wonder why the heir to Highgarden doesn't appear to be expected to have children of his own.

 

ETA: to fix the Loras/Lance typeos - ack ambi76 - I got it right like 50% of the post!

Edited October 26, 2015 by nksarmi

[ambi76]

Psst, nksarmi, Loras =/ Lancel. Sorry, pet peeve. ;-)

 

But, yeah, while I understand that D&D didn't want to hire actors for two parts that have like five lines combined in the books up to and including ADWD, Loras the heir makes no sense whatsoever. IIRC their excuse for him being Lord Commander of Renly's Kingsguard was that Renly's KG probably had laxer rules or something.  That Loras the heir should at least be betrothed to someone else, yeah, he should. But Willas at his advanced age is still single in the books, which is a bit strange there too, cripple or not.

 

The main problem is that they combined two characters that have absolutely nothing in common. Crippled, bookish, pious, heir =/ warlike, arrogant, gay, spare. Strange that they couldn't see that this retcon would end up clumsy at best, or they saw it and didn't care.

Hell show!Loras is now resembling the book's Elinor Tyrell more than anything, with his flirtyness and indiscretions that lead to trouble with the Faith.

 

Can't wait for shimpy to read Jaime's next chapter, which is the one where we get the most lines from and characterization of book!Loras ever. <3

Edited October 25, 2015 by ambi76

[Haleth]

They could very well have mentioned Willas as the Tyrell heir, but due to his injury he was unable to travel to KL so we don't see him.  Solves the problem of the heir.  I'd forgotten that Tywin once thought about either a Willas/Cersei match or Oberyn/Cercei.  Even getting his head squished was a better fate.

 

Regarding ages, I believe Ned and Robert were mid 30s, Cat maybe a couple years younger (but older than Petyr).  Cersei and Jaime are late 20s and Tyrion is about 25.  As with the kids, everyone was aged up a lot.

[Reader of Books]

Regarding ages, I believe Ned and Robert were mid 30s, Cat maybe a couple years younger (but older than Petyr).  Cersei and Jaime are late 20s and Tyrion is about 25.  As with the kids, everyone was aged up a lot.

 

How old was Jaime when he slew the King? 16? That puts them about the same age as Ned, maybe just a year or two less at the most.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Haleth]

Yeah, you are right, now that I think of it.  They certainly weren't toddlers when Tyrion was born.  And Cersei was 16? 17? when she married Robert.

[bobbybuilderton]

Psst, nksarmi, Loras =/ Lancel. Sorry, pet peeve. ;-)

But, yeah, while I understand that D&D didn't want to hire actors for two parts that have like five lines combined in the books up to and including ADWD, Loras the heir makes no sense whatsoever. IIRC their excuse for him being Lord Commander of Renly's Kingsguard was that Renly's KG probably had laxer rules or something. That Loras the heir should at least be betrothed to someone else, yeah, he should. But Willas at his advanced age is still single in the books, which is a bit strange there too, cripple or not.

The main problem is that they combined two characters that have absolutely nothing in common. Crippled, bookish, pious, heir =/ warlike, arrogant, gay, spare. Strange that they couldn't see that this retcon would end up clumsy at best, or they saw it and didn't care.

Hell show!Loras is now resembling the book's Elinor Tyrell more than anything, with his flirtyness and indiscretions that lead to trouble with the Faith.

Can't wait for shimpy to read Jaime's next chapter, which is the one where we get the most lines from and characterization of book!Loras ever. <3

That is a great chapter. The podcast Game of Owns just recently covered it.

I remember reading Jamie's realization that loras is him at that age and laughing really hard for some reason. Should be the final nail in the "wow the show really fucked loras up" coffin

[ambi76]

At the end of 299AL Jaime/Cersei are 33. They will turn 34 in 300AL. They were 7 years old when Tyrion was born in the books. Oberyn says they were around 8/9 then at one point but he doesn't remember exactly/correctly.

Edited October 25, 2015 by ambi76

[Lavignac]

I agree with Shimpy that Arya's dysfunctional upbringing is much better paced in books than on TV. It's not that surprising. From the top of my head, the characters who were the most short-changed in their characterization/evolution in this whole adaptation are: Arya, Jamie, Sandor, Stannis,

Jon

.

Then there are also the cases where reduced screen time wasn't an issue, but they elected to transform the characters' personalities significantly... Cersei, Robb, Loras,

Tyrion, Ellaria

.

 

Both of those lists make for some character decisions that are essentially the same in the show as in the books, but that seem less earned, justified, poignant and believable. Unfortunately the trend has increased in later seasons.

Dont't mistake me for a show-hater... I'm not endlessly discussing everything that went RIGHT in the adaptation, though there is a lot of that as well.

[Hecate7]

Tyrion is extremely sensitive about his physical appearance and any possible humiliation. Being stripped naked and made fun of by everyone at the wedding would be a nightmare to him. So, yes, they'd be "all over" Sansa, but they'd be laughing at him.

 

I didn't catch that about Tyrion. I mean, he knows he's "ugly." But they laugh at him already with his clothes on. In fact, with them off, they might laugh at him LESS. Remember how he pretended at the wedding dinner to have a tiny cock and envy Joffrey's probably kingly one? When in fact most dwarves have normal-sized genitalia and his in all likelihood would draw attention away, momentarily, from his deformities and shut people up for a minute.

 

People have ALWAYS laughed at Tyrion, and he knows it. I don't think nakedness in any way trumps noseless, a dwarf, and having to stand on a stool or climb a person to get a cloak put onto Sansa. He was quick enough to disrobe in front of Sansa, and didn't fear her laughter, probably because he considers his genitalia something of a trump card no matter who's looking.

How old was Jaime when he slew the King? 16? That puts them about the same age as Ned, maybe just a year or two less at the most.

 

 

In the books, the twins were 9 years old when Tyrion was born.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

He was quick enough to disrobe in front of Sansa, and didn't fear her laughter

Because Sansa isn't in a position to laugh at him, which he knows.  He's the one in control in that situation.

[Hecate7]

Because Sansa isn't in a position to laugh at him, which he knows.  He's the one in control in that situation.

 

Yes, she is. Why wouldn't she be? It's not like she's his hooker.

 

Let's face it, the one people are going to be looking at at the bedding isn't Tyrion. They stare at him when he's dressed, mostly if they haven't seen him before. Him being naked adds no interest whatsoever for anybody at court. They would not have been looking at Tyrion. Everyone would be looking at the six foot tall naked drop dead gorgeous redhead. Ask any cameraman. The naked female form draws the eye. Beauty draws the eye. In fact, probably nobody would have stripped Tyrion at all. He'd have probably gone to his bed still dressed--I can't imagine anyone in that room actually wanting to peel off his clothes on purpose. But Sansa...has anyone ever looked at her, who didn't want to strip her, since the purge at King's Landing?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

LOL I suppose.  I guess since I wanted him dead so badly, it's hard to imagine anyone else didn't.  But now that I see people make connections between the Tyrells and Tyrion - I suppose the purpose could have been to widow Sansa.  I mean yes, they wanted Marg wed to the crown and their family wed to the North through Sansa, but honestly - we can't really have it all can we?  And frankly, they did such a fine job of getting Marg wedded to Tommen, it's hard to believe that wasn't the plan all along (trade the crazy older brother out for the more docile, innocent one).

 

I mean heck, I don't believe Tywin had anything to do with Joffrey's death, but frankly, he wasn't all that upset by it.  And if things had gone on and he continued to have trouble controlling Joff, I think he might have taken a cue from his daughter and arranged for another boar accident to occur.

 

At any rate, unless Marg put Joffrey up to being his cup bearer, I don't see how Tyrion could be the intended victim.  And I don't really think any plan to widow Sansa and get her married back into House Tyrell would have gone that well.  I think it makes a lot more sense that Olenna wasn't going to allow her granddaughter to suffer at the hands of Joffrey so she orchestrated things to arrange for a different king to marry Marg off to.

 

I agree. I think it makes a lot more sense that they grilled Sansa about Joffrey in order to decide whether or not they had to kill him, decided that he had to die, and went from there. They may have wanted to kill Tyrion as well, but it was less urgent. Far more important was saving Margaery from Joffrey at that point. Letting her bed him would have been far too dangerous.

[Dev F]

Intrigue.  Excitement.  Anticipation.  Building Frustration.  Drawing things out doesn't then lead to "I MUST KNOW!" but is far closer to "Is this all of you've got?  I mean,  this really is an odd central mystery to build such a giant story around."  You get to the point that there isn't any satisfying answer because of screwing with the supporting structure for too long.  

 

Ayep. I complain about the pacing of the show a lot, but Martin runs up against exactly the same issues in the books. I don't know if you know this, shimpy, but Martin originally conceived the book series as a trilogy. He found himself expanding the story as he wrote it, so that three books became four, and then four books became six, and now he's shooting for seven. And one of the biggest problems with doing something like that on the fly is, certain storylines are less elastic than others.

 

There's plenty of room for Martin to venture into more and more areas of the world that he might not originally have expected to visit, or to delve deeper into side characters and alliances and conspiracies he may have originally only planned to hint at, but a relatively straightforward plot question like "Who is Jon's mother?" doesn't stretch that much further. So all Martin can do is ignore it for long stretches or repeat the same beats over and over until we really, really get the point.

 

I figure this is why fans circulate so many crazy conspiracy theories on the subject -- because given how insanely elaborate some other elements of the story have become, readers find it hard to believe that the solution to the central mystery is probably just "Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna." But that would be a perfectly fine solution to a mystery that stretches over a trilogy that took maybe a decade to finish rather than a heptalogy that we may not see the end of within a quarter century.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Dev F

[WindyNights]

Yes, she is. Why wouldn't she be? It's not like she's his hooker.

Let's face it, the one people are going to be looking at at the bedding isn't Tyrion. They stare at him when he's dressed, mostly if they haven't seen him before. Him being naked adds no interest whatsoever for anybody at court. They would not have been looking at Tyrion. Everyone would be looking at the six foot tall naked drop dead gorgeous redhead. Ask any cameraman. The naked female form draws the eye. Beauty draws the eye. In fact, probably nobody would have stripped Tyrion at all. He'd have probably gone to his bed still dressed--I can't imagine anyone in that room actually wanting to peel off his clothes on purpose. But Sansa...has anyone ever looked at her, who didn't want to strip her, since the purge at King's Landing?

Eerrrrr.....book Sansa isn't 6 feet tall. She looks like a 12 year old. Even Tyrion admits that she looks like a 12 year old.

[Reader of Books]

I think with the Sansa/Tyrion bedding its a little from column A and a little from column B. 

 

Certainly, in his own interest he had suffered a massive loss of face and respect. He had served as acting Hand of the King, hadn't done an awful job and hadn't done an awful job of defending the city from Stannis. And yet he had been subjected to humiliation since. Sure there was going to be a considerable amount of ogling of Sansa, but there absolutely was going to be mirth and disgust at the freak that was stripped naked before them. To me his deciding to take a stand against that was a reaction to the recent indignities and to take a stand as a 'man' who was now married and demand some agency in his destiny.

 

It wasn't entirely about self interest, but it also was absolutely a huge factor.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Reader of Books

[ambi76]

In the books, the twins were 9 years old when Tyrion was born.

 

This was considered canon for a while, since the only time someone talks about Cersei/Jaime and Tyrion's respective ages is when Oberyn tells his tale about Casterly Rock, but proven to be false by (us) timeline-nerds and additional historical canon. Oberyn only does an estimate anyways: "I think the twins were 8 or 9 at the time". He thought wrong. So says AWOIAF and IIRC

in the TWOW sample chapter of Tyrion he thinks about his upcoming 27th nameday or something like that.

 

Come to think of it Oberyn wasn't so far off, since the twins are born first half of 266AL and Tyrion probably rather late in 273AL.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ambi76

[John Potts]

Dev F readers find it hard to believe that the solution to the central mystery is probably just "Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna".

 

Yeah, that's why I came up with the "Jon Is the son of Lyanna and Eddard" or "Lyanna and Brandon" theories - I'm pretty sure neither is correct, but they both help explain why Lyanna might have run to Rhaegar (clearly her family couldn't protect her virtue) and maternal instinct might explain why she didn't speak up when her "affair" caused thousands of deaths and it wold DEFINITELY explain why Ned reacted so strongly to questions about Jon's parentage*. I don't think either theory is true (though B+L=J is more plausible than E+L=J) but how else are we going to pass the time until Winds comes out?

 

* Actually, are children of incest automatically killed (South of the Wall)? Cersei's children would only be killed primarily because their existence is a threat to the Succession, not because Jamie is Cersei's sister

[stillshimpy]

I think with the Sansa/Tyrion bedding its a little from column A and a little from column B.

 

Clearly.  As Tyrion sits in a cell thinking about trial by combat, he thought about what a ludicrous sight it would be for him to fight the Mountain.  He didn't want to die with the sound of laughter ringing in his ears.  He did spare Sansa something truly terrible, because gods alone know what Joffrey would have said, or done or claimed the right to do.  But he also spared himself and Tyrion also spared himself the burden of having to answer for any terrible slights to Sansa's honor.  

 

But it was also a kindness to Sansa.  Again, Tyrion doesn't win any hero points for deciding not to rape a clearly terrified girl, but it also keeps him out of the monster category.  Although, Tyrion in the carriage on the way to the wedding and again in the night before it when he trysts with Shae ....I don't know how much longer he was going to keep his word on that.  He was thinking that he could command Sansa to give it up for good that night and she would.  

 

Doesn't mean he was going to, just means that his resolve wasn't exactly made of the strongest stuff.  Sansa wasn't ever going to say "Now's the time!" and the entire castle was mocking him for not consummating his marriage.   Tyrion is very sensitive to being mocked, so that "no bedding" thing was going to be about him too and just like Oberyn wanted to get a gander at him, I'm sure the people of the bedding ceremony would have stripped him naked too.  It's just a fully awful custom to have as part of the books.  It is borrowed from history, but again, it was never the opposite sex doing that and mainly it was reserved for royal marriages....and again, rarely followed....because terrified virgins have a few performance issues as it is. 

 

Anyway, I've been through three chapters:  Tyrion in the dungeon, Jaime regarding the Big White Book of How Little He Did (it was interesting that Semly was judging him by not recording things he actually did do)  and then Sansa being taken to Petyr's sheepshitpile of a homestead and being proclaimed his bastard daughter.   

 

Tryion and Sansa's chapters are kind of best considered together.   I don't know if any of the other Tyrells were in on killing Joffrey.   So my notes from the Tyrion chapter are hilarious (to me) because of course my Kindle rejects all book spellings so I have to abbreviate  Tywin to Win to get it to the name and the Lannisters become the laminates.  In the "evidence" against Tyrion someone named Lady Merryweather swears up and down, etc.  

 

So it's clear that Cersei is bribing people to testify against Tyrion, but that she also really believes that he did it.  I don't know if Tywin truly believes or not, but it was interesting to learn that Kevan both loves and trusts Tywin -- which makes sense for a brother -- and that Tywin's father was kind and generous....and cheated everywhere he went.  Leaving Tywin to restore the family "honor" by being ruthless.  Interesting view into the Lannisters.  

 

It's sad that Tyrion thinks so bitterly about Sansa and honoring that "cloak of protection" to her by not just throwing her under the carriage wheels, but that he kind of resents needing to do that.  Little knowing that about the only person who actually feels for Tyrion and doesn't want him to be blamed is Sansa, who had no idea that her escape would be framing Tyrion for murder.  That she was able to recognize that Tyrion not forcing her to have sex had to do with something resembling kindness and decency.  It just does seem to indicate that had they been given time, if he had gotten her out of Kingslanding and taken her to Casterly Rock ....eventually she might have thought of him as a friend and then....yeah, the whole "Well, it wouldn't ever be a romantic love, but she probably would have eventually consented".  

 

But the most interesting stuff came up up when Oberyn shows up at Tyrion's cell and it turns out that the Tyrell's used to rule the Martels, until a canopy of scorpions took care of that problem (and I love that Oberyn said he'd take the scorpions over Cersei...doomed man that he is, that made me like him....finally someone with enough sense to know death by poison would be preferable).   

 

So Oberyn believes that the Tyrell's were trying to frame him for Joffrey's murder -- although that seems unlikely because they entire plan to get Sansa the hell out of King's Landing would have pointed to her -- but at least Oberyn has a lot of reasons to think that the Tyrells would, because Dornish law allows for a woman to inherit before her male relatives are entirely exhausted.   The plot in the books is much more detailed and interesting.  

 

In Jaime's chapter there's this quote "The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel.  Or was it only he had been fifteen?"  It is interesting the Jaime once had the same sort of beliefs in goodness and decency that Sansa did.  "That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead"  ....so he goes from Sansa'esque mindset to Cersei's perversion of all things, including love.  

 

So there were times when the Kingsguard was divided (the Dance with Dragons) when Targs fought each other for the Throne.  

 

The stuff with Loras was fascinating though.  "You all forget, my sister was drinking from that chalice as well.  Sansa Stark was the only person in the hall who had reason to want Margaery dead, as well as the King."   At first I was truly surprised by that, but I don't know how much any of the Tyrells knew about Olenna's plan with Littlefinger.  Probably Loras wasn't included.  It's actually sort of sad that he'd think Sansa, who's pretty much harmless, would try to kill Margaery. 

 

But the stuff with Brienne was fascinating.  it really startled me that Loras tried to believe that Brienne had truly killed Renly, but then finding out that it is partially because he had killed two of the Rainbow Guard (and that is the last time I'm ever using that term) and therefore would have to try and deal with the concept that he had murdered people who were supposed to be brothers of the Kingsguard with him.  

 

That's a fascinating passage and a nice look into who Loras is as a person.   Good on Garlan for being Renly's ghost, by the way and I did love that it was Littlefinger's idea.  Littlefinger is absolutely a villain, but unlike so many of the villains in this book, he's interesting and at least a little fun.   So I'm also assuming that Loras really does think Sansa killed Joffrey, because he wouldn't lie to Jaime about who was in Renly's armor (I didn't catch that it wasn't Loras until that moment and had wondered why they were taking the one-size-fits-all approach to armor....apparently Martin wasn't).  

 

I did like that Loras did understand, at least easily enough, that there was simply no way that Brienne had killed Renly, because they had the same feelings for him.  

 

Jaime being forced into introspection because he can no longer just impulsively act is clearly going to be the thing that saves the character from himself eventually.  He has to confront things like "Why don't I feel any urge to kill the Kingsguard who failed not just the King, but my son?"  type of stuff.  

 

Although "Other Debts to Pay" at the end of that chapter worried me more than a little bit.  

 

Sansa's chapter is just a big old mess of scary on so many levels.  It was genuinely freaking sad that although she's horrified at being declared anyone's bastard child....she at least thinks wearily that it will finally mean people will quit trying to marry her for Winterfell.....and then she damn near gets raped right away since she no longer has the protection of being from a legitimate house and accorded the honor of a woman of some status.   That sucks out loud, basically, and I did appreciate that it was the Kettleback's father who protected her there.  

 

I'm assuming Petyr really does have to push Crazpants Lyssa out of a moon door to keep her from hurling Sansa to her death.  Petyr's designs on Sansa really are some of the creepier things in the books and I appreciate again how it has been played in the show.   It was so clearly an active choice on the part of the show and the actor to just not play Petyr as actually being interested in sex.  Just power.  

 

Weirdly, that exposition scene was reasonably well done, but I can see why they ditched it almost entirely from the Show.  Petyr halving the fruit and offering it to Sansa was....that was hilariously "Well how much Victorian symbolism is Petyr going to employ with Sansa?   Because we've already got the hairnet (anything with hair in Victorian novels was just considered code for sex)....I damn near laughed my ass off at how very Wuthering Heights Petyr's ancestral home is....complete with a form of Cathy for Petyr to go all Healthcliff shouting across the moors for....and marrying some other woman and driving her mad for the fun of it.  

 

But between the pomegranate (which is what the serpent was supposed to have tempted Even into eating in some versions of the Garden of Eden) and then the blood orange, I kept having inappropriate fits of giggles.  Poor freaking Sansa.  As soon as I was glad that Petyr had sent Kettleback to protect her virtue that night, it immediately occurred to me why he wants to make sure she stays a virgin.  

 

Also, just insane dark comedy of telling Sansa that he fucked her mother (which he didn't) also nearly had me rolling.  I don't think I was supposed to find all of that quite as funny as I did, but good gravy, it was killing me.   Get thee a chastity belt, Sansa, you need to lock that thing up but good because the Lord of Sheepshit Rock has designs upon it. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[SeanC]

Yes, she is. Why wouldn't she be? It's not like she's his hooker.

No, she's his hostage bride who has to do whatever he says or else she faces punishment.  The hooker can at least theoretically refuse to do business.

[ambi76]

The stuff with Loras was fascinating though.  "You all forget, my sister was drinking from that chalice as well.  Sansa Stark was the only person in the hall who had reason to want Margaery dead, as well as the King."   At first I was truly surprised by that, but I don't know how much any of the Tyrells knew about Olenna's plan with Littlefinger.  Probably Loras wasn't included.  It's actually sort of sad that he'd think Sansa, who's pretty much harmless, would try to kill Margaery.

 

Well, there are two possibilities. Loras is totally in on the murder plot of his family and was pointing the finger very forcefully in some other direction. Or and probably more likely his train of thought went: Why, if I were Sansa, I would totally kill Joff and that nasty bitch who stole him from me too, because ... um ... I'm a bit of a dumbass?

 

But the stuff with Brienne was fascinating.  it really startled me that Loras tried to believe that Brienne had truly killed Renly, but then finding out that it is partially because he had killed two of the Rainbow Guard (and that is the last time I'm ever using that term) and therefore would have to try and deal with the concept that he had murdered people who were supposed to be brothers of the Kingsguard with him.

 

Yeah, killing two people, friends even, in a fit of rage and then finding out they were innocent of what you thought they did, is kinda tough on our Knight of Flowers. Nice of Jaime trying to comfort him. That Jaime sees his own young self reflected in Loras is interesting too. I actually think he is projecting a bit too much on Loras, because while there are great similarities, there are also some great differences between those two.

 

That's a fascinating passage and a nice look into who Loras is as a person.   Good on Garlan for being Renly's ghost, by the way and I did love that it was Littlefinger's idea.  Littlefinger is absolutely a villain, but unlike so many of the villains in this book, he's interesting and at least a little fun.   So I'm also assuming that Loras really does think Sansa killed Joffrey, because he wouldn't lie to Jaime about who was in Renly's armor (I didn't catch that it wasn't Loras until that moment and had wondered why they were taking the one-size-fits-all approach to armor....apparently Martin wasn't).

 

I was very impressed when you immediately pointed out that Loras wouldn't fit in Renly's armor. That would have never occured to me at first reading. And yeah Martin also went for not suspending disbelieve and let the bigger bro take over here. Loras should not pout so much about it, because with Garlan as Renly's Ghost and him at his side the illusion was even more perfect.

 

About Loras telling the truth, well, Jaime thinks: "He is young and reckless and full of piss but he is not false. Not yet." Maybe we'll get to know at one point if he was right in that assessment.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ambi76

[Alayne Stone]

Oh man, the symbolism with Littlefinger and Sansa is crazy. The pomegranate also has shades of Hades and Persephone painted all over it, which many of the fanbase have run miles with. But we’re finally getting to my favorite part for Sansa in the books. I’m sure by now you’ve figured out where my screen name comes from. ;)

 

Everyone was waiting for you to get to that Jaime chapter.

 

I always loved that Jaime thought he was seeing his younger reflection in Loras as well. I think now you can understand why so many book readers are frustrated by the show’s treatment of Loras because even with how little we get in the book, there’s still this very interesting and layered character in the story. I for one don’t think he was in on the murder plot. Loras is too headstrong and reactive to be trusted with that kind of information. So yeah, I do believe that he genuinely believes that Sansa was involved in the plot, which also serves her storyline and the deconstruction of the damsel in distress relying on the honorable knight to save her.

 

I can’t read that chapter without feeling bad for Jaime. Good insight on Jaime having been the male version of Sansa when he was younger with all his romanticized view of what it means to have honor and be a true knight. You see her romanticized views being compared with another character,

Brienne

but not necessarily with Jaime, though it makes perfect sense.

 

I really hope he gets to fill up his page with more honorable deeds and feel he has actually earned his place there when all is said and done.

[Reader of Books]

 

That Jaime sees his own young self reflected in Loras is interesting too. I actually think he is projecting a bit too much on Loras, because while there are great similarities, there are also some great differences between those two.

 

I think that is in large part because Jaime hasn't really assessed who he himself really is. He is so focused on 'being a knight' it is an all-consuming identity and it is on that focus point that he projects upon Loras. Its effectively the only thing he sees valuable in himself and the attributes he sees as valuable in Loras.

[nksarmi]

This is going to be a fun week for this thread because shimpy has some really good chapters coming up.  This read through has reminded me just how MUCH happens in this book! It's just SO intense.

[Reader of Books]

This is going to be a fun week for this thread because shimpy has some really good chapters coming up.  This read through has reminded me just how MUCH happens in this book! It's just SO intense.

 

The last few chapters alone have been incredibly juicy as far as the characters are concerned. A lot of this part of the story I find to be the most  memorable of the whole story.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Hecate7]

No, she's his hostage bride who has to do whatever he says or else she faces punishment.  The hooker can at least theoretically refuse to do business.

 

Sansa does "refuse to do business," in a sense. He notices her reluctance and promises not to touch her until she wants him to, and when she hints that she'll never want him to, he promises to stick to his whores, and he puts his clothes back on.

 

So none of that's valid. She knows perfectly well she faces no "punishment" from Tyrion, the guy who stopped the beating, forbade the bedding, and stopped the second she didn't even ask him to stop. She's just scared because he's ugly, like any girl who wasn't a trained hooker or already completely in love with him for other reasons, would be. She knows he's not going to "punish" her for not putting out. And in fact he does not. So that's a silly argument.

 

Once she's married to Tyrion that whole hostage business sort of goes out the window anyway. He allows her to escape, and in fact during the marriage negotiations he suggested returning her to the Starks as a way of ending the war, not realizing what Tywin's real plans were for Robb Stark. He's not interested in forcing her consent, her affection, or her obedience. He's not interested in her except that he feels sorry for her and guilty about her. He has a few weak moments of wishing he could look like Lancel, Loras, or Joffrey, because it is true that she'd adjust if he were. That's what women always did in those days, unless they killed themselves to avoid losing their honor or being prizes for the conquering family. If Sansa were that extremely conservative she'd have thrown herself from a tower when she heard Robb was dead.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, Jaime is not exactly what you would call self-actualized at this point in his life.  His sense of self is very wrapped up in labels and who he is to others, rather than knowing who he is to himself.  Developing self-esteem is like a mirror you hold out towards the world and you see what it reflects back at you and the opinion of others forms your opinion of yourself. 

 

Then you get older, understand everyone for their own flaws, hopefully own up to yours, try to be better, try to act ethically and basically by the time most people are fully self-actualized their like four minutes from death brought on by old age, because maturation and actualization are a long, long process.  Jaime's got almost impossibly muddled because his father is a distant, chilly man who apparently only ever really showed any love towards his wife (and considering how often and freely he questions Tyrion's parentage to his face....there's some doubt as to how loving he really was towards her) .  His mother dies and since Cersei is a true narcissist, she makes it all revolve around her and Jaime only sees himself in relationship to the primary, defining emotional relationship of his life:  to Cersei.  

 

The best thing that ever happened to him was Robb Stark locking him up and away from Cersei for a time, then Catelyn Stark setting him free in a lot more ways than one, eventually.   I doubt he'll ever get to think precisely that, but it would be a nice note in the story if Jaime finally regrets and feels contrite about pushing Brandon Stark from a window because Catelyn really did start the process of setting him free.  

 

I know Catelyn was not a popular character and my GAWD could that woman fuck up the world with a bad impulse acted upon, but for as much as she cost the North and her son, she certainly paid dearly for it and people like Brienne and Jaime did actually benefit from her trying to stick to the rules as she understood them.  She paid for it like crazy and so did other who shouldn't have had to (Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and ....by a lot .....Jon) but it is interesting that Cat was such a Catalyst  in so many plots. 

 

Oh man, the symbolism with Littlefinger and Sansa is crazy. The pomegranate also has shades of Hades and Persephone painted all over it, which many of the fanbase have run miles with. But we’re finally getting to my favorite part for Sansa in the books. I’m sure by now you’ve figured out where my screen name comes from. ;)

 

Right?  "Don't eat the fruit from the Underworld, Sansa!!!"  and then she eats half the blood orange man, her fate is sealed in so, so many ways.   But it truly was a "Never eat the food of the Fae!"  "You cannot eat a pomegranate from the underworld without being lost to the land of .....oh wait, too late for that, hairnet girl.  Might as well have some pomegranate."  

 

I was very impressed when you immediately pointed out that Loras wouldn't fit in Renly's armor. That would have never occured to me at first reading.

 

Well thank you, but as per usual, you can actually put that down to having studied the period of history Martin likes to draw from  so I knew he'd have to know it also.  In a lot of cases a King's suit of armor, back in the days when Kings always rode into battle, was the most accurate historical measure of his height because it would have been made to actually fit him.  So that's how it is known that Kind Edward IV was 6'4" and Henry VIII 6'2" while Richard III was relatively diminutive.  

 

I know way too much about why people actually wanted to be the Groom of the Stool and other such "Oh my god, help my brain, please" type of details too, but I usually don't whip those out at dinner parties or anything ;-) 

[ambi76]

I think that is in large part because Jaime hasn't really assessed who he himself really is.

 

Oh yes, that's a work in progress all right. But how beautiful to witness.

 

I still have to grin when I think of how Leigh Butler in her read flipped out after (this) chapter: "I HATE YOU ALL, YOU WERE RIGHT! NOW I LIKE JAIME!" after having been such a staunch "This is never going to happen. No way will I ever do anything but despise that fucker! You Jaime fans are nutters." gal up to that point.

Edited October 27, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I haven't experienced any great "Now I like Jaime!" conversion, so much as I now understand why he has fans.  I no longer violently dislike him (which is a BIG step for me) and I like that he's a far more complex character than he looked to be at first.  

 

However, Jaime pushing Bran out of that window could be argued to be "Well, he did it because he felt he had to...." 

 

Jaime walking away from Ned with a casual "Kill his men..." is just.....yeah, I don't think I ever really will like Jaime.   

[Reader of Books]

Oh yes, that's a work in progress all right. But how beautiful to witness.

 

I still have to grin when I think of how Leigh Butler in her read flipped out after this chapter: "I HATE YOU ALL, YOU WERE RIGHT! NOW I LIKE JAIME!" after having been such a staunch "This is never going to happen. No way will I ever do anything but despise that fucker! You Jaime fans are nutters." gal up to that point.

 

Yeah the way GRRM guides the reader through the tale with point of view shifts gets my applause. Without a Jaime PoV he would always be 'the guy who threw Bran out the window'. Although to me he is the really-deep-and-compelling guy who threw Bran out the window. (I don't understand those who are his firm fans and give an 'I just don't even care about Bran' response on that point)

Edited October 26, 2015 by Reader of Books

[ambi76]

I don't care about Bran (much), but that doesn't change Jaime trying to kill him, so yeah, that's a weird response. And I looked it up and I was wrong, this one wasn't the flipping chapter for Leigh, could have sworn it was, but she held out for a bit longer it seems.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ambi76

[WindyNights]

@shimpy I just wanna say that I think that Oberyn's probaly right and the Tyrells did want to frame him. I think getting Sansa out of KL was an independent plot by LF and that he tried to change the plan from framing Oberyn to framing Tyrion using the dwarves.

[Mya Stone]

I get that Sansa and her arc are...polarizing...to say the least, but at this point, I don't think anything anyone says is going to change anyone's mind, so let's agree to disagree and move on.

[Haleth]

I do feel sorry for Jaime in that he was just so darned naive when he was a kid.  He totally bought into the whole knight in shining armor/honor of the Kingsguard thing just as Loras still does.  Until the kingslaying he had no idea he was being manipulated by more devious minds and when he finally realized it he began to hide behind cynicism and arrogance.  Yes, he sees more than a bit of himself in Loras, but it's also why he has a soft spot for Brienne.  (She actually believes in a code of honor, bless her heart.)  Still, it's hard to have much sympathy for a man who would toss a child out a window.

 

If it weren't so squicky, the relationship between Sansa and Littlefinger would be fascinating.  She was never required to do any critical thinking before so watching her work out solutions to problems shows that her character is evolving.

[WindyNights]

I do feel sorry for Jaime in that he was just so darned naive when he was a kid. He totally bought into the whole knight in shining armor/honor of the Kingsguard thing just as Loras still does. Until the kingslaying he had no idea he was being manipulated by more devious minds and when he finally realized it he began to hide behind cynicism and arrogance. Yes, he sees more than a bit of himself in Loras, but it's also why he has a soft spot for Brienne. (She actually believes in a code of honor, bless her heart.) Still, it's hard to have much sympathy for a man who would toss a child out a window.

If it weren't so squicky, the relationship between Sansa and Littlefinger would be fascinating. She was never required to do any critical thinking before so watching her work out solutions to problems shows that her character is evolving.

Quick correction but Jaime realized it pre-kingslaying.

I like the parallel there between Jaime and Jon. Interestingly enough, if you look hard enough, Jon, Jaime and Theon( who is another parallel to Jon)have an interconnecting dream. No need for spoilers here, shimpy, you've already read them.

Edited October 26, 2015 by WindyNights

[Holmbo]

I wonder, would Sansa's and Tyrion's interactions would have been different if Sansa did not have the escape plan to hold on to. She didn't expect to stay. Though quite possibly the only difference would be that she'd be even more miserable.

The show suffered from removing Dontos in the butterfly effect that Sansa's situation becomes quite different. She's doesn't have any hope of escaping so the show had to have her dealing with that. Which they fortunately didn't have to do for that many episodes, since they weren't doing it well IMO.

With the Jaime chapter I'm reminded of a book and show podcast I listened to where the hosts were saying, only half jokingly, that clearly Jaime is a bad person because he didn't hate himself when he was fifteen.

I agree with the Jaime and Sansa parallels. Those two have a lot in common.

[magdalene]

 

I agree with the Jaime and Sansa parallels. Those two have a lot in common.

I never understood why folks ship Jaime/Sansa and write/read fan fic about them. Maybe this is why. I learn so much reading this thread.

 

I am just so tickled that shimpy no longer despises Jaime. What a gulf to cross. 

[WindyNights]

Eh? Sansa has a lot of parallels from Jeyne Poole to Jon to Theon to Brienne. Many of the characters do.

Edited October 27, 2015 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

Yes, many characters share several parallels with other characters in the series. It's just always nice when someone points out a new parallel you had never considered before. It only serves to enhance the reading. :)

[stillshimpy]

Oh boy, those were a couple of ruthless, mirthless chapters all-in-all. 

 

So Oberyn was kind of a braying jackass all of his life and Tywin was partially taking revenge upon Elia for marrying Rhaegar, when Tywin wanted Cersei to marry him.  Oh brother, that's hideous.  Only slightly more hideous than Oberyn bringing the whole thing about in the first damned place by making fun of every suitor and condemning half the damned Kingdom over a fit flatulence.  Great job, Oberyn. 

 

So in his own way Oberyn participated in putting Elia into the "A Lannister Always Pays His Debts" revenge column and her children too.  I suppose it is ultimately fitting that not being able to keep his damned mouth shut and just get it done without a bunch of theatrical crowing cost him his life.  It's also somewhat depressing that he really was mostly interested in defending Tyrion so that Myrcella could be used as a pawn in the whole struggle for power.  

 

Then it was absolutely impossible not to feel sorrier than hell for Tyrion when Shae testified.  It was far more heart-wrenching in the book, because she doesn't do it because her heart is broken.  She's not a woman scorned.  She was just doing business and kept doing it.  One boss as good as the next.  

 

Poor Tyrion.  I hardly ever say that sort of thing, but honestly, just he was so darned screwed.  

 

Then I wanted heavy things to fall from the sky and crush Slynt and Thorne.  Slowly and repeatedly until every last ounce of idiocy and evil had been smashed out of their cells.  It would have taken a hailstorm of anvils to really get the job done, but again, boy would they ever have it coming.  

[mac123x]

One of the differences between Show and Book pops up here.  In the book, Tyrion knew that Oberyn would be his champion before he called for a trial by combat.  I liked that part of his motive was to tear Tywin's grand alliance to shreds.  Either Oberyn wins and the Tyrell's get pissed or Oberyn loses and the Martell's get pissed. 

 

In the Show, Tyrion was really rolling the dice and throwing caution to the wind (and other metaphors).  It made for a good cliff-hanger, and set up that really nice scene in his cell where Oberyn tells the story of how they first met.  I liked how D&D repurposed that snarky story into something nice and hopeful.  Momentarily hopeful at least.

 

Definitely different, and I liked both versions.

[nksarmi]

I love the books version, but I must admit that Peter D killed that scene when Tyrion loses his shit, tells off the entire room, and calls for trial by combat.  I mean, holy crap, was that a fine performance.  But anything else I have to say will wait till shimpy gets through all of this book because oh boy are things going to get fun then! :)

[Triskan]

Yeah, Slynt is a total jackass ! 

 

I still regret not getting the Ice Cells in the show but I can understand why that bit was omitted.

 

Speaking of regrets (and to stay in the Wall storyline), I'm still not over a particular character being cut, but that's mostly because I have huge childish crush on her.

 

You've met her already, and she's a very minor character, but I wont openly say her name here. Readers will know who I'm talking about ! ^^

Edited October 27, 2015 by Triskan

[jellyroll2]

Triskan, I'm the same way! So annoyed she's not in the show as I absolutely adore her!

[WindyNights]

Um giving a guess here but

Val?

[Haleth]

^ Me too.

 

So Oberyn was kind of a braying jackass all of his life and Tywin was partially taking revenge upon Elia for marrying Rhaegar, when Tywin wanted Cersei to marry him.  Oh brother, that's hideous.  Only slightly more hideous than Oberyn bringing the whole thing about in the first damned place by making fun of every suitor and condemning half the damned Kingdom over a fit flatulence.  Great job, Oberyn.

 

I can't hate Oberyn for making fun of Elia's suitors.  Teenage big bro laughing at the dorks flirting with his little sis?  That's normal.  I thought the big revelation here was that Tywin was determined to make his daughter queen.  Being rebuffed by Aerys must have infuriated him.  Add to that Aerys commanding the Lannister heir to join the Kingsguard added fuel.  It's no wonder Tywin not only did not come to Aerys's aid in the war, but actively sought to wipe out the whole Targ family.  Paying his debts as it were.  And then he offered Cersei to Robert.

[stillshimpy]

He made fun of the one she actually liked, Haleth and would have chosen if he could have turned his act off for long enough to actually find someone she liked to marry.  Also, so much has been made out of Elia's poor health at this point -- she was seldom allowed to travel, apparently the girl escaped from a Bronte novel -- and it's fucking Oberyn who is telling that story, apparently unaware to that day that he might have saved her life if he'd held his tongue. 

 

I can't hate Oberyn for teasing his sister, but I can dislike him for being so thoroughly lacking in self-awareness as a grown ass man that he told that entire story, complete with "and offered her....you" .  Tyrion's been a much longer victim of his family and is still one and Oberyn tells this story, apparently never having given a thought to "I teased her about someone she actually had a crush on, man if I hadn't opened my fool mouth, things could have been different, am I right?  Coulda, woulda, shoulda though, so I'm here to try and set things right."  

Nope he's there bent on avenging his murdered and raped sister (which for goodness sake, who can't understand that as an impulse?) .....but displays the very thing that will cost him his life:  An inability to quit trying to make it into personal theater, not familial love.  

 

That's what made me end up not liking Oberyn, as he says all this and volunteers to fight The Mountain, he also reveals that mostly?  It's a scheme to get the Iron Throne too.   Welcome to "You are the thing you claim to hate: Westerosi Edition". 

 

ETA:  There's a female character at the Wall, is that who you guys are talking about?  I can't remember her name right now, but yes, I did notice her. 

 

Also, I wasn't too surprised that Tywin intended to marry his daughter to the crown prince all along, Jaime had said as much when he talked about Tywin taking Cersei to King's Landing hoping she would catch Rhaegar's eye since Elia seemed likely to die in childbirth.  

 

Yes, you can spot the : That's part of why Rhaegar Targaryen felt so free to make off with Lyanna Stark of it all from miles away.  They married him to a cute, female version of Boo Radley so the scramble was on for who would be the next queen anyway.  

 

Renly kept Brienne beside him because she was the only one amongst the guard who wanted nothing for herself, she just truly wanted to serve. 

 

Lyanna Stark, because of who her father was, was never going to be used as a pawn in the game of "When Elia kicks it, which everyone agrees is pretty bloody likely, he'll marry MY daughter next..."  .  Part of Lyanna's allure was that she wasn't part of a scheme built on the back of his ailing wife's expected death.  

 

ETA2:  You know, I also just wanted to add that I didn't end up violently disliking Oberyn, but it is fair to say that I ended up disliking him.  That's something I wouldn't have guessed from the show.  When he tells Tyrion that he'd be welcome with Sansa, in Dorne, he's trying to lock down the entire kingdom.  

Also in season five

When Elia spends pretty much all her time trying to kill Myrcella, I kept saying that Oberyn would have been incredibly grossed out by that, considering that the reason he died was he was trying to avenge his sister and her murdered children and it turns out, he likely would have been down with the scheme.

.   I pretty much stand corrected by the books on that one. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Um giving a guess here but

Val?

 

Of course ! ^^

 

I didnt want to openly say her name because even though shimpy's already met her, she probably doesnt remember her and I dont want to influence her reading. But yeah, I'm still sad she didnt make the cut. 

 

ETA:  There's a female character at the Wall, is that who you guys are talking about?  I can't remember her name right now, but yes, I did notice her.

 

Not necessarly at the Wall, but linked to that arc storyline. A gorgeous blonde woman you saw only once so far at the beginning of the book and whose lover fell to his death at some point. It starts by a V and she has a pregnant sister ! ;)

Cant say more ! ^^

Edited October 27, 2015 by Triskan

[Reader of Books]

Has a decision been made on when the Tales of Dunk and Egg will be read?

 

My personal suggestion is that it waits until after the fifth book. 

 

My reason is there is a certain question I had in my mind from the AGoT that kind of niggled away until the events of ADwD. I read the 5 books as a block then only went back to read ToDaE after I'd seen a few seasons of the show. There is one plot device in there I found to be all but a confirmation of my suspicions due to GRRM's writing pattern. 

 

I am fine with whatever is decided, but as shimpy hasn't yet voiced the question that I have seen, I am interested to see how things roll out.

 

The issue: 

Is Varys a Blackfyre?. It would explain his head-shaving. The 'power in a king's blood' explains the sorcery story. It potentially explains his rise and placement in the Small Council from being a slave boy.

[Haleth]

Also in season five  

When Elia spends pretty much all her time trying to kill Myrcella, I kept saying that Oberyn would have been incredibly grossed out by that, considering that the reason he died was he was trying to avenge his sister and her murdered children and it turns out, he likely would have been down with the scheme.. 

  I pretty much stand corrected by the books on that one.

 

It's funny (?).  If the Tyrells didn't kill Joff, the Martells might have thought about it to put Marcella on the Iron Throne.  The boy didn't stand a chance.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Haleth