Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[nksarmi]

There are theories about people being secret mermaids. I think Joff not being the intended victim is relatively tame as far as crackpot theories go.

LOL I suppose.  I guess since I wanted him dead so badly, it's hard to imagine anyone else didn't.  But now that I see people make connections between the Tyrells and Tyrion - I suppose the purpose could have been to widow Sansa.  I mean yes, they wanted Marg wed to the crown and their family wed to the North through Sansa, but honestly - we can't really have it all can we?  And frankly, they did such a fine job of getting Marg wedded to Tommen, it's hard to believe that wasn't the plan all along (trade the crazy older brother out for the more docile, innocent one).

 

I mean heck, I don't believe Tywin had anything to do with Joffrey's death, but frankly, he wasn't all that upset by it.  And if things had gone on and he continued to have trouble controlling Joff, I think he might have taken a cue from his daughter and arranged for another boar accident to occur.

 

At any rate, unless Marg put Joffrey up to being his cup bearer, I don't see how Tyrion could be the intended victim.  And I don't really think any plan to widow Sansa and get her married back into House Tyrell would have gone that well.  I think it makes a lot more sense that Olenna wasn't going to allow her granddaughter to suffer at the hands of Joffrey so she orchestrated things to arrange for a different king to marry Marg off to.

[stillshimpy]

Not sure if I understand you right but I don't think season 5 of the show is off limits here, Tyler, as shimpy saw it. Maybe one should be cautious about reading spoiler tags if it is a bother.

 

Guys, I actually spoiler tag anything from Season 5 specifically because I know there are readers here who did not watch Season Five.  

 

 

 

Could I just you guys that there are people here who haven't seen season 5 for fear of book spoilers.

 

Yes, that's actually what we agreed to do a while back, I think it just got lost in the shuffle there for a bit.  

 

So....if we're referencing stuff from season 5 .....even I spoiler tag it with an explanation that it is from Season 5.   Which Tyler is one of the people who stayed up all kinds of weird hours from across a sea to try and help keep the Unsullied Threads safe for Unsullied Silliness, so I'm completely down with spoiler tagging stuff I saw in season five and ask everyone to join me in the good ship "Spoiler Tag Season 5: And say that's what you're doing, right before the tag" ......

 

Our banner is....still being created, it's quite the creative challenge really,  but that's the deal :-)  More in a few as I get caught up here. 

 

Okay, so what did I think about Brienne being at the wedding as a change from book to show:  For whatever reason, the show has primarily chosen to play Brienne and her sense of honor off as a a source or comedy for a lot of things.  In the Show it was a source of some frustration that Brienne had sworn up and down to deliver Jaime to King's Landing and get Sansa back to her family.  But basically the whole time she was in King's Landing, she did next to nothing about that, except to sort of nag Jaime about it occasionally.   I'm spoiler tagging something from season five here

but it also wouldn't preclude Brienne recognizing Sansa in an Inn because she was with Pod at the time, who would really know what Sansa looked like

 

I'm up for crackpot theories about how Joffrey wasn't even the intended victim.  That sounds awesome!

 

 

 

I mean heck, I don't believe Tywin had anything to do with Joffrey's death, but frankly, he wasn't all that upset by it.

 

In the series he was so thoroughly unconcerned with finding out who had actually killed Joffrey....because he'd have to know that Tryion would not be that stupid and I doubt he thought Sansa could be that cunning on her own....that I assumed that Tywin was actually in on murdering Joffery, because he was too difficult to control.   

 

Okay, well, it's not like I relish the thought of this subject either, but on the inclusion of the infamous scene in the Sept with Jaime and Cersei.  In the show, it's rape....doesn't matter if the producers/director/actor intended it that way.....just like Robert Frost wrote a poem about Death, even if he went to his actual grave saying it was about stopping by woods, etc.  ....if it is a perfectly reasonable and likely conclusion "Hey, that's a poem about death" ....then similarly a scene of a woman saying "No" repeated and forced to the floor, to have sex by her son's dead body is going to be interpreted as rape for some really good reasons.   Intent is trumped by the most likely interpretation by the greatest number of people.   

 

Clearly, book Jaime doesn't rape Cersei.  However, the whole scene does exist to show how sick and twisted their entire relationship actually is.  They practically have sex on the altar where Joffrey's body is lying in state....Jaime seems to have no true feelings about Joff (who as unlovable as he was....that's supposed to their child together)....the decided to have Cersei Menstruating for reasons to just sort of up the "Wow, so.... you really couldn't be disrespecting your son lying in state any more than possible....you're getting blood on that altar...?"  

 

Then Jaime is so not focused on "Oh, someone murdered our son" he just wants to marry Cersei and Cersei is all about the "But Tommen claims the Throne through Robert's blood line...." 

 

So...it's not rape in the book.  What is is a full examination of why they have, perhaps the slight exception of Caligula and his sisters, the least healthy family relationship ever, and the most destructive to all things good in Jaime's nature relationship that they could possibly have.   It's not rape, but it is clear that is a sexual obsession that borders on a mental illness anyway.  

 

A lot of attention gets paid to how incredibly screwed up Tryion is because from the moment he was born, he was unloved by all and also mistreated.   Jaime and Cersei were also emotionally abandoned on every known level at a very young age and that scene seems to be all about some psycho-sexual obsessiveness as it is.  

 

So I guess I don't really see it as mattering that "In the show, they made that a rape!"  because it is every kind of emotional violation of what constitutes healthy, enriching and good relationships.  The whole scene is about "Whoa, these are some obsessed and sexually twisted people who are addicted to one another more than anything else." 

 

In the Show, Cersei is far more Jaime's victim, in the books....Cersei is also asking Jaime to kill Tyrion for her, basically in the same "Woo, let's get it on here, in the least appropriate place ever....unless we could somehow manage to have innocents being slaughtered in the background while the embodiment of Love Made Flesh and Healthy drank actual poison in a corner at the same time."  

Edited October 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy has the right of it. I know Which Tyler isn't alone in his boycott of season 5 - there are many readers who stopped watching so the show wouldn't spoil plots from the books for them.

I try to explain why I spoiler tag something so that people don't inadvertently click things. This is a special thread, in that someone who has seen all the seasons of the show and been unspoiled throughout is making her way through the books and dissecting the depth that's in the novels, and not so much the show. Please use respect and common sense in using spoiler tags.

I don't believe fan theories are considered spoilers UNLESS they are derived due to things revealed in later books or past where Shimpy is in her read. Thanks!

[Avaleigh]

During the purple wedding I actually did think that Joffrey was accidentally poisoned at first. 

 

Before understanding about the stones from Asshai and Sansa's hairnet, I actually thought it was the pie that was poisoned. Or more specifically, there was a sauce that was put onto Tyrion's piece of pie and I figured that sauce was tampered with and that maybe even Cersei had done it to rid herself of Tyrion once and for all. I thought Joffrey being rude and helping himself to Tyrion's plate was what ended up sealing his fate. It wasn't until later that I realized it was indeed the wine. 

[ambi76]

My tinfoil hat stays firmly in place, because the only "reveal" of the plot comes from Petyr fucking Baelish who can't even open his mouth without a lie coming out. How do we know they wanted Joffrey dead, nksarmi? 

We don't. There is no fucking Tyrell POV. We know absolutely nothing about their motives as much as it pains me. Word of mouth (especially that one), doesn't count.

 

Tywin having something to do with Joff's demise doesn't work for me. Seems totally out of character for that man.

Edited October 23, 2015 by ambi76

[nksarmi]

Guys, I actually spoiler tag anything from Season 5 specifically because I know there are readers here who did not watch Season Five.  

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's actually what we agreed to do a while back, I think it just got lost in the shuffle there for a bit.  

 

So....if we're referencing stuff from season 5 .....even I spoiler tag it with an explanation that it is from Season 5.   Which Tyler is one of the people who stayed up all kinds of weird hours from across a sea to try and help keep the Unsullied Threads safe for Unsullied Silliness, so I'm completely down with spoiler tagging stuff I saw in season five and ask everyone to join me in the good ship "Spoiler Tag Season 5: And say that's what you're doing, right before the tag" ......

 

Our banner is....still being created, it's quite the creative challenge really,  but that's the deal :-)  More in a few as I get caught up here. 

 

Okay, so what did I think about Brienne being at the wedding as a change from book to show:  For whatever reason, the show has primarily chosen to play Brienne and her sense of honor off as a a source or comedy for a lot of things.  In the Show it was a source of some frustration that Brienne had sworn up and down to deliver Jaime to King's Landing and get Sansa back to her family.  But basically the whole time she was in King's Landing, she did next to nothing about that, except to sort of nag Jaime about it occasionally.   I'm spoiler tagging something from season five here

but it also wouldn't preclude Brienne recognizing Sansa in an Inn because she was with Pod at the time, who would really know what Sansa looked like

 

I'm up for crackpot theories about how Joffrey wasn't even the intended victim.  That sounds awesome!

 

 

 

 

In the series he was so thoroughly unconcerned with finding out who had actually killed Joffrey....because he'd have to know that Tryion would not be that stupid and I doubt he thought Sansa could be that cunning on her own....that I assumed that Tywin was actually in on murdering Joffery, because he was too difficult to control.   

 

Okay, well, it's not like I relish the thought of this subject either, but on the inclusion of the infamous scene in the Sept with Jaime and Cersei.  In the show, it's rape....doesn't matter if the producers/director/actor intended it that way.....just like Robert Frost wrote a poem about Death, even if he went to his actual grave saying it was about stopping by woods, etc.  ....if it is a perfectly reasonable and likely conclusion "Hey, that's a poem about death" ....then similarly a scene of a woman saying "No" repeated and forced to the floor, to have sex by her son's dead body is going to be interpreted as rape for some really good reasons.   Intent is trumped by the most likely interpretation by the greatest number of people.   

 

Clearly, book Jaime doesn't rape Cersei.  However, the whole scene does exist to show how sick and twisted their entire relationship actually is.  They practically have sex on the altar where Joffrey's body is lying in state....Jaime seems to have no true feelings about Joff (who as unlovable as he was....that's supposed to their child together)....the decided to have Cersei Menstruating for reasons to just sort of up the "Wow, so.... you really couldn't be disrespecting your son lying in state any more than possible....you're getting blood on that altar...?"  

 

Then Jaime is so not focused on "Oh, someone murdered our son" he just wants to marry Cersei and Cersei is all about the "But Tommen claims the Throne through Robert's blood line...." 

 

So...it's not rape in the book.  What is is a full examination of why they have, perhaps the slight exception of Caligula and his sisters, the least healthy family relationship ever, and the most destructive to all things good in Jaime's nature relationship that they could possibly have.   It's not rape, but it is clear that is a sexual obsession that borders on a mental illness anyway.  

 

A lot of attention gets paid to how incredibly screwed up Tryion is because from the moment he was born, he was unloved by all and also mistreated.   Jaime and Cersei were also emotionally abandoned on every known level at a very young age and that scene seems to be all about some psycho-sexual obsessiveness as it is.  

 

So I guess I don't really see it as mattering that "In the show, they made that a rape!"  because it is every kind of emotional violation of what constitutes healthy, enriching and good relationships.  The whole scene is about "Whoa, these are some obsessed and sexually twisted people who are addicted to one another more than anything else." 

 

In the Show, Cersei is far more Jaime's victim, in the books....Cersei is also asking Jaime to kill Tyrion for her, basically in the same "Woo, let's get it on here, in the least appropriate place ever....unless we could somehow manage to have innocents being slaughtered in the background while the embodiment of Love Made Flesh and Healthy drank actual poison in a corner at the same time."  

Yes, yes, and so much yes.  Forget that the show made the scene rape - it was supposed to be so sick and twisted on both of them - like this event is supposed to tell you everything that is wrong with both of these characters and why it would be best if they never saw each other again like ever.  I definitely think the show missed that - especially with the season five:

stuff in Dorne with the idea of Jamie and Cersei being together is treated like "the heart wants what the heart wants" and addressed as if its actually LOVE and not a completely unhealthy obsession.

[Dev F]

I never did hear an explanation of why the show went with a necklace rather than the hairnet.  Just because careful viewers could spot a missing (big, honkin') piece of a necklace but not a delicate jewel from the snood?

 

I figure there were several reasons. The first is probably simple logistics, in that a hairnet would be an absolute nightmare to depict on screen. When you're not wearing it, it just looks like a tangle of string and gemstones, so it would take some doing just to explain what it is. And it takes some effort just to put it on, so you'd have to explain that it's a thing Sansa's supposed to wear in her hair without her even trying it on to illustrate. It would just be a talky, confusing mess. Whereas anyone can look at a necklace and immediately understand what it is and what Sansa's supposed to do with it.

 

And then from a story standpoint, because it's a such a fussy prop, it wouldn't make sense for Sansa to wear it around all the time, so the show's simplified "Wear this in honor of my family" explanation wouldn't work either. They'd have to go back to the "You need to wear this special thing at Joffrey's wedding" explanation from the book, which would require more significant adjustments in the storyline -- adjustments it was probably too late to make by the time they decided to reintroduce Ser Dontos, since there wasn't time for him to really gain Sansa's trust and convince her that he was going to help her escape.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Dev F

[nksarmi]

My tinfoil hat stays firmly in place, because the only "reveal" of the plot comes from Petyr fucking Baelish who can't even open his mouth without a lie coming out. How do we know they wanted Joffrey dead, nksarmi? 

We don't. There is no fucking Tyrell POV. We know absolutely nothing about their motives as much as it pains me. Word of mouth (especially that one), doesn't count.

 

Tywin having something to do with Joff's demise doesn't work for me. Seems totally out of character for that man.

Like I said, I am biased because I wanted him dead so bad.....but I guess it's backward reasoning that makes me think it was Joffrey all along - it just works out so well for them.  I mean, Joffrey was obviously uncontrollable but there was good reason to believe that whoever controlled/influenced Tommen, could rule the 7 kingdoms.  Tywin clearly believes this and it wouldn't seem unfathomable to me that the Tyrells had figured this out as well.  So if this whole thing is about more than "Marg wants to be a queen" and it's actually about being the most powerful family in the 7 kingdoms (and they are already the second richest) then it really does make sense to kill Joffrey and position Marg to be married to Tommen instead.

 

I just don't see what they gain by killing Tyrion and widowing Sansa.  There is just no guarantee that they would have been able to regain Sansa as a wife for the oldest son and get the North with her.  I mean, I'm almost certain Tywin would have married her off to a lesser Lannister the moment Tyrion was in the ground.

[Alayne Stone]

Tywin having been involved in Joffrey's murder is precisely the fan theory I spoiler tagged one page ago, Shimpy. So you are definitely not alone in that speculation. I don't fully subscribe to it myself, but I don't agree that it would be out of character for Tywin. Joffrey has the trappings of being a second Mad King in addition to being very unpredictable. Tommen is much better as a puppet king for the likes of Tywin Lannister.

 

I think the show intended to have the sept scene play out as the book did, but the problem was there was just ... no communication on it. It seems like the actors and directors of the scene involved all had different ideas of motivation for that scene. No one was on the same page, precisely because it seems like no serious discussion was given to the scene before hand with all parties involved on a creative level. And rather than just acknowledge it wasn't executed very well, they've just chosen to ignore any dialog on that scene. You'll find this has been the crux of much of the criticism the show has gotten over the last couple of seasons.

 

As for the book, I would wager that Cersei went to Jaime in an attempt to seduce him precisely because she intended to solicit him to murder Tyrion ... which just adds yet another level of depravity to the scene.

[jellyroll2]

Wait?  That's a theory?  I thought it was very clear they wanted Joffrey dead.

Yes.

There's speculation that the poison was actually meant for Tyrion, not Joffrey. Or at least not just Joffrey. No one could have planned those things to work out like they did. They couldn't have poised the big cup as both Joffrey and Margery drank from it. Many believe the poison got into the wine from Garlan, who was sitting right next to Tyrion. With Tyrion dead, it frees up Sansa for Willas. I think it was supposed to be chalked up to a mere accidental choking. This way Sansa is free, they marry her to Willas, and they get the IT and the North.

[Alayne Stone]

Regarding who the other possible intended victim could have been at the Purple Wedding (and I actually don't think this is much of a spoiler, because it's merely speculation and a little far fetched at that) ... and it's certainly nowhere near confirmed in the books ...

 

Only problem with that theory was that they clearly intended to use Sansa as their scapegoat with the hairnet. That's kind of counterproductive to what they were aiming to do with killing Joffrey, and I do think Joffrey was the intended target as they have a lot more to gain by killing Joffrey with gaining the seven kingdoms as opposed to just killing Tyrion/marrying Sansa to Willas and gaining the North.

 

It's an interesting theory though.

[WindyNights]

Actually I thought that

they were trying to pin the blame on Oberyn. Oberyn even mentions it himself with Sansa as a secondary scapegoat. It was LF using the dwarves to give Tyrion a motive that derailed the Tyrell's plans

Also no way they were trying to killing Tyrion. It's just fans trying to create more twists. I mean Tywin would've just married Sansa to Marytn or Lancel if Tyrion died.

Edited October 23, 2015 by WindyNights

[John Potts]

I always had problems with the Tyrells killing Joffrey (which admittedly, we only have Littlefinger's word for) because it undermines the basis of their own power. So long as Margery is married to Joffrey, they have access to royal power and if Joffrey becomes a problem... well, once Margery has a kid  (or at a push, once she's pregnant) they control the next monarch. Sure, Joffrey is a psychopath, but Margery seems to keep him under control (and it wouldn't necessarily need to be for that long).

 

Setting up Tyrion seems more in their interests, since removing the most competent Lannister (other than Tywin) is in their interests when it comes to taking over. Also, killing Tyrion frees Sansa to marry Loras (or Garlan) and so extends their control into the North.

Edited October 23, 2015 by John Potts

[SeanC]

Sure, Joffrey is a psychopath, but Margery seems to keep him under control

Based on what?  The show portrayed her doing that, but in the books we never see anything suggesting she has him under control.  She's attracted to her, but he was attracted to Sansa, too.

[John Potts]

SeanC The show portrayed her doing that, but in the books we never see anything suggesting she has him under control

 

Fair point. But Olenna had no reason to believe that if Joffrey died, they could arrange a marriage to Tommen (and it's not like she could approach Tywin and go, "So, if Joffrey died, what would you think about marrying the poor widow to his younger brother? Purely theoretically, you understand. Long live the King!"). Olenna should have relied on Margery working her charms on Joffrey and/or her ability to deflect his sadistic urges onto somebody else (with the understanding that once she had a child, Joffrey would be... dealt with).

[Haleth]

The Tyrells had money, food, and soldiers. Tywin needed them so they could be pretty sure he would go along with the marriage to Tommen. Marg was a hot commodity. And as for working her charms, who is more easily manipulated.. a known psychopath or a timid 9yo?

Edited October 23, 2015 by Haleth

[Delta1212]

Fair point. But Olenna had no reason to believe that if Joffrey died, they could arrange a marriage to Tommen (and it's not like she could approach Tywin and go, "So, if Joffrey died, what would you think about marrying the poor widow to his younger brother? Purely theoretically, you understand. Long live the King!"). Olenna should have relied on Margery working her charms on Joffrey and/or her ability to deflect his sadistic urges onto somebody else (with the understanding that once she had a child, Joffrey would be... dealt with).

Olenna had every reason to believe they could arrange a marriage to Tommen. Joffrey and Margaery weren't getting married because Joffrey took a liking to her. They were getting married because the Lannisters needed the Tyrells as allies to cement control over the realm. That doesn't stop being the case just because Joff is dead.

If anything, they need to ensure their ties with the Tyrells remain strong now as much as ever. With Joffrey dead, the king is a young child whose only possible heirs are an uncle in open rebellion against the Lannisters and a sister who is effectively a hostage in Dorne.

The Starks' removal from the playing field sets the Lannisters up to move into a strong position, but if they piss off the Tyrells, they are asking for a lot of trouble. What other friends do they have? Walder Frey and Roose Bolton? They've just proven they aren't exactly people you can count on for their loyalty, and even then, they're really relying on the Lannisters to prop them up at this point. That should ensure they don't turn on them for the moment, but it also means they don't have the resources of a true Great House that they could bring to bear in support of the Lannisters if needed either.

Lysafinger? The Lannisters might count them as slightly more reliable than it turns out they actually are, but that still isn't a group I'd trust my life with even without knowing more about Littlefinger's scheming, and even if that wasn't an issue, the Vale's strongpoint is really defense. That's great if you're there and less so if you aren't.

The Martells are more likely to stick a knife in the Lannisters than actively help them.

Balon's Greyjoy is dead, but that doesn't bring the Ironborn to heel.

And Stannis is still actively working against them.

The Tyrells are the only family left with any power that isn't already hostile to the Lannisters or in their orbit, and they're one of the most powerful families left, period.

There isn't a better match that could currently be made for Tommen and the sleight that dismissing their marriage alliance would constitute would push the Lannister position from strong to precarious with no real benefit.

As long as someone like Tywin is in charge, the only real risk in killing Joffrey is getting caught, not that the alliance would be broken simply because he died.

[WindyNights]

there's also the risk that if

Joffrey mistreats Marge that Loras will kill him so yeah

Also Olenna might not care if Marge becomes queen. She seems to not be happy at the idea. Book Marge isn't really interested in it unlike her show counterpart.

Edited October 23, 2015 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

We simply do not know enough about the Tyrells to suggest that they have any other motive beyond wanting to get a psychopathic, out of control Joffrey out of the way to make way for a more pliable Tommen. We have no POV chapters from any of them. I think in this instance, it's fairly straight forward, and I don't anticipate any grand conspiracies being revealed in the future because I think the Tyrells, like the Lannisters, are on borrowed time at this point. Once Aegon marches on King's Landing, all bets are off with that alliance. Unless of course the Tyrells jump ship and aligns with Aegon/The Martells but ... we just don't know right now. And we won't know until book 6 where the Tyrells will stand.

 

We don't get enough interaction between Margaery and Joffrey in the books to suggest she has any control over him, but someone above me already pointed out the reasons for that. Book Margaery and show Margaery are two completely different characters.

 

And yes, the Lannisters very much need the Tyrells. I'm currently on my re-read of Clash of Kings right now and literally just read the chapter where Littlefinger was dispensed to forge the marriage alliance between Margaery and Joffrey. They need them for food, resources, military strength and money. Without a marriage to Tommen, the Tyrells have no reason to stick around and could have just left at any point.

 

And yes, Loras would have absolutely pulled a Jaime Lannister if his sister had come to any harm.

[nksarmi]

For the reasons others have said, I think it just makes so much more sense that the plot was to kill Joffrey.  The Tyrells have every reason to believe Tywin will agree for Tommen to marry Marg and I believe she is young enough in the books to think that she won't be too old to have his children once he comes of age.

 

While you could say that the Tyrells would gain the North is they could recapture the flag (Sansa) with Tyrion's death - I think it's pretty darn clear that Tywin would have NEVER allowed that.  I mean besides, since the only way the Tyrells could marry Sansa off to one of their sons would implicate them in the death of Tyrion (because while certain people hate him, none of them have anything to gain by his death) - they really don't gain anything out of such a crime.  They either look guilty of killing Tywin's son (and no matter how much he hates the imp himself, he wouldn't bare that insult well) and gain Sansa (but leave Marg open to pay for their crimes at court) OR they kill Tyrion but gain nothing from it.

 

On the other hand, killing Joffrey opens them up to negotiate the marriage proposal with Tommen because of the alliance Tywin still very much needs and with Sansa's implication in the scheme, they are free to plead innocence. That's all gain, no loss.  It seems far more likely that was their plan (though perhaps they might have been happy if Tyrion had died as well - not to gain Sansa, but just to get a capable Lannister out of the way).

[Holmbo]

I think we can also see a bit more of the Tyrell motives in how they did the deed. If they simply wanted Joffrey (or whoever people believe was the intended victim) out of the way they could have made sure to slip some slow working poison into his food any random day before the wedding. They clearly choose to kill him in the most public way possible. So at least part of the motive must be to make the Lannisters look weak and possibly forcing them to ruin some alliance because they needed to find someone to punish for this crime (for example Oberyn).

[John Potts]

While I accept that it's a risk for Margery to marry a psycho like Joffrey, so is hanging around for Tommen to come of age. With his upbringing, why assume he wouldn't turn out to be just like his brother? And even if he isn't (and evidence so far suggests he won't be) he's (I think) six years old. Tyrell rule won't be secure until Margery's child son the throne - and with Tommen that can't be for at least five years (or more). In that time, all sorts of things might happen - Tywin might find alternative sources of food (from Essos, I guess) and so no longer need the Tyrells, Tommen might die (from either assassination or perfectly mundane causes) or even Margery might die. To say nothing of the possibility that somebody (say,

the Ironborn

) might come in and undermine the factor that meant Tywin needed them in the first place: their lands are so far untouched by the war. When you have power within your grasp, no power player would go: "You know what? We don't need to secure our new power base." And even if Margery isn't up to manipulating Joffrey and does die at his hand, that enable them to make common cause with the Martells as "Women killed by the Lannisters" and form their own formidable alliance (click for books 4 and 5 spoilers)

(presumably behind either FAegon or Danerys)

- I'm sure Olenna cares about her family to hope that isn't the outcome but she's probably thought about the possibility.

 

(Edited for potential spoilers)

Edited October 24, 2015 by Mya Stone

[SeanC]

The Tyrells hate the Martells; they wouldn't have any interest in allying with them like that.  And sure, things could happen while waiting for the marriage with Tommen to be consummated, but those things are really no more or less probable than any number of unfortunate things that could happen while Margaery and Joffrey are married.  And as for the Lannisters being able to replace them, the Tyrells are the foremost military and agricultural power on the continent; I don't think that's a concern. 

[John Potts]

Churchill hated Stalin (and Roosevelt wasn't much keener on him): that didn't men they didn't they didn't make common cause against Hitler. War makes strange bedfellows (after all, Robert Baratheon had no love for the Lannisters: that didn't mean he didn't marry Cersei to secure his throne). Sure, the Tyrells and Martells might be suspicious of each other (probably rightly) - but IIRC, they've never fought each other (they were both on Aerys' side in the Usurper's war, for a start).

[Haleth]

I believe Tommen was 8 or 9.  The Tyrells  (well, Marg anyway) had been around him enough to know he wasn't a sadistic madman like his older brother.  She could wait till he came of age.

 

The Tyrells were on top of the world.  The smallfolk of KL loved them.  Tywin needed them.  Eventually they would rule the kingdom through Margaery.  (There must have been some discussion of how to get rid of Cersei.)  What could possibly go wrong?  (

Heheh... Ironborn in Highgarden.

)

 

I wonder

if we'll ever see Edric Storm again.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Haleth

[Reader of Books]

(Edited for potential spoilers)

 

You should spoiler tag the Faegon reference too.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Reader of Books

[WindyNights]

While I accept that it's a risk for Margery to marry a psycho like Joffrey, so is hanging around for Tommen to come of age. With his upbringing, why assume he wouldn't turn out to be just like his brother? And even if he isn't (and evidence so far suggests he won't be) he's (I think) six years old. Tyrell rule won't be secure until Margery's child son the throne - and with Tommen that can't be for at least five years (or more). In that time, all sorts of things might happen - Tywin might find alternative sources of food (from Essos, I guess) and so no longer need the Tyrells, Tommen might die (from either assassination or perfectly mundane causes) or even Margery might die. To say nothing of the possibility that somebody (say,

the Ironborn

) might come in and undermine the factor that meant Tywin needed them in the first place: their lands are so far untouched by the war. When you have power within your grasp, no power player would go: "You know what? We don't need to secure our new power base." And even if Margery isn't up to manipulating Joffrey and does die at his hand, that enable them to make common cause with the Martells as "Women killed by the Lannisters" and form their own formidable alliance

(presumably behind either FAegon or Danerys)

- I'm sure Olenna cares about her family to hope that isn't the outcome but she's probably thought about the possibility.

(Edited for potential spoilers)

Mace seems to be the only one that wanted Marge to be queen. I don't think he wAs in the know about the assassination plot.

Olenna and Marge don't really seem to have much interest in her being Queen so.....

[Mya Stone]

You should spoiler tag the Faegon reference too.

 

I did. :) Sorry for the public edit, John!

[John Potts]

No problem, Mya (though I did wonder when I'd done that!).

[nksarmi]

Yea show Marg really wants to be queen and doesn't seem to care if she has to marry a monster to do it.  There are times when I wonder if SHE was in on the plot because - well at least the show version - seems not upset that he died, but upset of when he died.  Like she can't see as far as Olenna has planned (to web her to Tommen instead).

 

If I recall what I looked up on the ages Tommen is 9 or 10 and Marg is 16 or 17.  With the way things go in GRRM's world, I think we are suppose to assume that Tommen will be fathering children by the time he's 12 so it's really not that long to wait.  And it gives Marg time to win his loyalty out from his mother's hand.  Of course:

since the show aged him up - they have taken that out of the equation. I wonder if Marg will end up pregnant or if they just wanted to eliminate the "she's being put on trial for her virginity" plot from the books.

Edited October 24, 2015 by nksarmi

[John Potts]

nksarmi Like she can't see as far as Olenna has planned (to web her to Tommen instead).

 

 

Shouldn't that be wed (though I guess web works as well)?

 

I really should have remembered the timeline of the Martell plot to restore a Targaryen to the throne, because my favourite line in Feast for Crows was the last line: "Blood and Fire"

Edited October 24, 2015 by John Potts

[stillshimpy]

Well, I think for the moment I'm just going to continue to assume that Tywin wasn't in on it, but could figure it out pretty easily and since it was to his own benefit, decided to roll with it.  Olenna decided that Tommen was just the more easily moved pawn.  In the show, Tywin has zero interest in figuring out who really killed Joffrey and can't really believe that Tyrion would do so in such an imbecilic fashion.  

 

However, in the Book, it seems like Tywin will willingly believe that Sansa killed Joffrey and took off leaving Tyrion to take the blame....and that her accomplice was just some northerner, looking to take wedding revenge.  Mostly because he doesn't really care that Joffrey is dead and Joffrey being dead before there was even the tiniest chance that Margaery could produce an heir that would threaten Lannister power is also going to benefit Tywin.  Joffrey was going to be a pain in the ass and very shortly.  He already had been on at least one occasion and Book Joffrey doesn't share the trait that Show Joffrey did:  Book Joffrey was not demonstrably afraid of Tywin.  The problem with Joffrey for Tywin is the same in the books and the Show.  In the Show as soon as Joffrey figured out that he could order someone to kill his grandfather if he felt like it, he would.   He likely would have realized that soon after marrying. 

 

That's the problem with sociopathic monsters as kings and that was always going to be a problem with Joffrey and anyone seeking to control him.  So there are at least some reasons that Tywin might choose to turn a blind eye to trying to figure out who really killed Joffrey and instead would move on to engaging Tommen to Margaery pretty seamlessly.   For one thing, it would mean he wouldn't have to return Margaery's dowry. 

 

Book Marg has zero personality as of yet and is just used as a willing pawn, but pretty clearly does want to be Queen.  There's more from English history, but there'd actually be some wisdom on the part of the Tyrells in getting rid of the guy who would clearly mistreat her, knowing that Tywin and the crown would be too broke to return the dowry and whereas being married to the King is really about producing an heir, there's actually risk in childbirth.   The Tyrells wouldn't actually be all that nuts to be perfectly happy with a union that kept them in power, kept the possibility of Margaery inconveniently dying in childbirth at bay for a few years(or being proved barren ) and also got the uncontrollable child-monster-king out of the picture and the sweet, docile fond-of-snacks and games Tommen in his place. 

 

So I've read Davos chapter where he has Edric Storm spirited away by Saal (who is a much better character in the books and even passes for a good person, which is damned rare in these books) ....and I liked that he did it with the help of others, who also knew they were risking death.  In the Show, I don't think that they had Melisandre ever talk about needing to kill a child with king's blood to wake a dragon from stone.  It's sort of left as "In order for you to win the Throne and be the Warrior of Light, beat back the darkness, or whatever...." and the part about "It will call forth a dragon from Dragonstone is sort of left the hell out of it entirely. 

 

So at least it makes sense now that Melisandre's leeches were being used to prove something to a specific end.  'Okay, if the usurpers croak from this, then you'll know you have to kill this kid to wake a dragon" and that's what changes Stannis's mind.  I do think it's a bunch of shit that Stannis has talked himself into believing, that it is his duty that he did not ask for or want, etc. etc.  

 

He talks about how they'll have to send for him now, now that Joffrey is dead and has to be reminded that there is still Tommen.  

 

The battle at the Wall played out much as it did in the show (except, no Stannis as of yet), but on a much bigger scale.  I, of freaking course, hated the whole "let's set a whole bunch of animals on fire!" aspect of it, but it isn't as if I'm unaware that people have sucked like that throughout real history.   War.  It sucks, it's terrible, it brings out the absolute worst in humanity, but it is fucking hell on animals on some seriously screwed up levels.    

 

Arya's chapter with The Hound was much sadder than I thought it was going to be, by the way.   He doesn't really save her just try and figure out who else to ransom her to and she doesn't just become InstaPsycho and start killing people in a psychotic break.  Instead, she's just this incredibly sad little girl who is almost dead inside...that's pretty clearly Nymeria somewhere near her in the woods and it was incredibly sad Arya, essentially as skin-changer (it's so difficult to think of this as Warging, because Arya just seems along for the ride....an observer, vs. someone directing this wolf) pulled her mother's body from the river where it will be eaten by all manner of creatures.  Or found by whichever soldiers those were.  I guess if there's a chance they were Northmen of the not "Now in Completely Evil" cahoots, they might at least bury the poor woman, but it's not like they're going to know who she is either so overall that was just incredibly sad.   I guess Arya wasn't going to be able to believe her mother was dead unless she saw her, but still, sad as hell. 

 

It was also incredibly sad that they found the soldier who was dying and told the story of the Bolton man who toasted with him....and then killed him.  

 

I actually am surprised that I like The Hound story in the book so much better than I did in the Show.  I liked the actor who played the Hound a lot, but he really did seem to simply be dragging her ass all over the place trying to sell her to someone for a good sum.  Whereas in the book, it's actually feels a little more obvious that he actually feels responsible for her and can't just bring himself to leave her to fend for herself.  Although I do like the touch that it's made clear he's sort of hoping she'll just run the hell away and solve the problem for him.  "Here, have your own horse.  Here, have your own blade.  Here, I'll stop tying you up at night." 

 

He doesn't really have any hope of getting much of a ransom for her, he's just sort of stuck as to what to do with her.   It's like some sort of kidnapper's honor or something.  "Shit, I kidnapped you to ransom you....and now your entire family is dead and we both sort of know it....and I suppose I could just kill you, but I generally don't actually relish killing children....and bloody hell, you won't run away."  

 

So thus far it is coming off a bit differently than it did in the show.  In the Book, whatever the deal with Sansa was, there was the creepy, leering edge to it all with The Hound.  There pretty much is no way to read these books comfortably without just tossing aside all "this is how old this person is supposed to be, by the number we are given" and instead, deciding to view their age as being appropriate to how they are treated.  So Sansa, who Tryion wanted to have fall in love with him is somewhere around eighteen in my head so that I don't go nuts and feel insanely grossed out through all of her chapters because she just got tossed to the next guy who is going have a creepy and pervy interest in her that is not in the least fitting to her age: Petyr.  

 

But the way The Hound interacts with Arya does have this weird edge of ...he feels responsible for her in that "someone has to keep this really strange, dead-inside kid alive until I can get the shriveled husk of her childhood soul into the hands of someone who won't sell her for body parts and it's my damned responsibility because I took her....damn it all to hell." 

 

That couldn't have been made clearer than having a child about Arya's age following her around at first....with a doll that she pretended protected her.  That really was an "Oooooppphhhh."  every time I make myself forget how old Sansa is supposed to be in this story, every now and then the story will go out of its way to remind me that Arya is a little girl.  

 

On the subject of Jon's dream....oh my god, cut the shit already, Martin and commit.  "You're not a Stark!"   "You're a not a Stark!"  and then apparently finding poor Summer or Grey Wind in there with him.   Clearly Jon is some kind of Stark if he's also got the weird wolf affinity, but George R. R. Martin got too cute by half with that passage.   

 

After a certain point, you have to quit being coy on purpose and just for the sake of it.  I get that Martin can't write a passage where Jon dreams of Ned down there and they chat.   I know there are two more books and that's only out of the ones that are completed...but he's officially into "Okay dude, you're just overplaying your hand at this point....quit flipping off reasonable narrative structure, quit pretending that suspense can be sustained indefinitely, because it can't....and just answer the bloody question." 

 

Intrigue.  Excitement.  Anticipation.  Building Frustration.  Drawing things out doesn't then lead to "I MUST KNOW!" but is far closer to "Is this all of you've got?  I mean,  this really is an odd central mystery to build such a giant story around."  You get to the point that there isn't any satisfying answer because of screwing with the supporting structure for too long. 

 

That dream was the point in the Books that got me to where I've been in the Show for a couple of seasons:  Wow, I don't care.  Jon's actually an interesting character with an interesting story of his own.....why do you keep dragging his character into the abyss of dull that is his parentage question?  

 

It's sort of a disservice to his own story and I wish he'd cut the shit there.   

 

Throughout the series I've wondered:  Okay, for real...if you've got a former brother of the Night's Watch that is so thoroughly in the know, in the form of Mance Rayder ....who would presumably still be known to people like Mormont, before he died....why in the world would you just go there under a peace banner, asking for truce to have a meeting and tell him the score?  "Hey, I know you hate me for breaking my vows and think I'm a traitor, but leaving that aside for a moment ....boy are there ever big problems brewing out in the true North.  BIG PROBLEMS.    You know about Craster and his ....deal with his sons....so....this is not going to be as giant a shock to you as it might otherwise be, but former Brother, the dead have risen and the shit is going down.  Let's make a deal about how to fight them where we don't kill each other off in huge numbers first."  

 

So that always bothered me in the show and still bothers me a bit in the books.  Back when the shit started going down, there were still men of reason to whom they could appeal.  Now, I grant you, all those men are dead.   Ned might have been prevailed upon by his brother Benjen, Ned could have prevailed upon Robert to listen....the world didn't need to be turned into ashes, bloody stumps and burning mammoths. 

 

But now it has to be.  The thing is I can't care about or like the Free Folk.  They are freely just a pain in the ass, as far as I'm concerned.  They're no better or worse than the people of the Kingdoms, at least not as they stand now.  

 

And just because every now and then it really strikes me, and I'm sure it's going to end up being an issue again soon:  Good God, Ciarian Hinds was a woefully miscast man in this gig.   He's a great actor and he's usually not without charisma, but there should be some important stuff coming up that ...it would have helped to have someone with roguish charm and nerves of steel.  

Edited October 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[John Potts]

Well if the books have taught us anything, it's that people never calmly think about what's going on and address the real problems the Realm faces. And that's not entirely without precedent IRL either.

 

I like the Hound's somewhat wonky sense of honour, too (I guess that's what happens when your "noble" brother burns your face as a kid).

 

stillshimpy Okay dude, you're just overplaying your hand at this point....quit flipping off reasonable narrative structure, quit pretending that suspense can be sustained indefinitely, because it can't....and just answer the bloody question

 

Wish I could say that that feeling will go away... but that would be a spoiler!

It won't

 

ETA: I was going to add that Tyrion is marginally more age appropriate than Littlefinger before I realised that I actually had no idea if that was true (I guess I was just underestimating Peter Dinklage's age due to his height). As it happens, both Aiden Gillen and Littlefinger are a couple of years older than Peter Dinklage and Tyrion, but there's very little in it.

Edited October 24, 2015 by John Potts

[Reader of Books]

shimpy enjoying seeing your take on Arya. 

 

On the skinchanging vs warging thing: skinchanging means actually taking on a new form while staying in the same place. Warging means the consciousness enters the other body. This can be a passive or active process - either as a spectator or in control. The control part takes practice. As with so much of the magic in this story, magic has a cost. "Only life can pay for life". It would be so easy to slip into the dream and never come out, so much easier than the hard work it is to force yourself to come back or to do the hard work to learn to take control.

 

That particular dream I thought would have been the scene used at the final moment of season 4... but, not to be.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Protar]

shimpy enjoying seeing your take on Arya. 

 

On the skinchanging vs warging thing: skinchanging means actually taking on a new form while staying in the same place. Warging means the consciousness enters the other body. 

 

This is kind of incorrect. Skinchanging refers to the inhabiting and controlling of the minds of beasts, a Warg is a specific term for a Skinchanger who controls the mind of a wolf. Westerosi myths and legends changed the mind control into actually transforming into animals but so far no one can actually do that. Also a fun fact, the verb Warging is never used in the books. It's a fan term which was then adopted by the show.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Protar

[Delta1212]

I really think the production's first choice of Dominic West would have been a perfect Mance.

McNulty is pretty much exactly who you want in that role.

[mac123x]

The Hound's plan of ransoming Arya to Lysa didn't make a lot of sense to me, book or show-wise.  The whole reason they skipped going to Riverrun was that the Blackfish wouldn't recognize her since they'd never met, so would be unlikely to pay the ransom.  Lysa at most knew Arya as a toddler (it'd been 5 years since Lysa and Catelyn had seen each other), so how likely is she to pay the ransom?

 

guess if there's a chance they were Northmen of the not "Now in Completely Evil" cahoots, they might at least bury the poor woman, but it's not like they're going to know who she is either so overall that was just incredibly sad.  That comment will come back...

Edited October 24, 2015 by mac123x

[Triskan]

Just noticed you didnt notice (or didnt comment) on some info you get in Jaime's chapter return to KL. I wont tell you what I'm referring to though ! ^^

 

I'm talking about Jeyne / fArya sent to the Boltons !

[Delta1212]

This is kind of incorrect. Skinchanging refers to the inhabiting and controlling of the minds of beasts, a Warg is a specific term for a Skinchanger who controls the mind of a wolf. Westerosi myths and legends changed the mind control into actually transforming into animals but so far no one can actually do that. Also a fun fact, the verb Warging is never used in the books. It's a fan term which was then adopted by the show.

Speaking of warging, this is a little silly but I love it more than is probably reasonable:

Edited October 24, 2015 by Delta1212

[Haleth]

Are we avoiding any discussion of the sept scene?

[stillshimpy]

I already talked about Jaime and Cersei's scene in the sept, Haleth.  At some length.  Is there another sept scene? 

 

On the warging, skinwalking, skinchanging, doo-da-doo-da of it all I have this to add:  Okay.  

 

I hope you're not expecting me to remember and use that correctly though.  I'm just proud of myself for not making up a completely ridiculous name for it that involves musical instruments and circus peanuts, because that's usually what we did. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Sorry. I don't know how I missed that. Never mind.

Carry on.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Haleth

[Silje]

Just noticed you didnt notice (or didnt comment) on some info you get in Jaime's chapter return to KL. I wont tell you what I'm referring to though ! ^^

 

I'm talking about Jeyne / fArya sent to the Boltons !

 

You're mixing up the chapters.

That happens in Jaime's last chapter in ASoS. I'm really looking forward to shimpy's 'Wait, WHAT?!' reaction to it. 

                 

[nksarmi]

Well if the books have taught us anything, it's that people never calmly think about what's going on and address the real problems the Realm faces. And that's not entirely without precedent IRL either.

 

I like the Hound's somewhat wonky sense of honour, too (I guess that's what happens when your "noble" brother burns your face as a kid).

 

 

Wish I could say that that feeling will go away... but that would be a spoiler!

It won't

 

ETA: I was going to add that Tyrion is marginally more age appropriate than Littlefinger before I realised that I actually had no idea if that was true (I guess I was just underestimating Peter Dinklage's age due to his height). As it happens, both Aiden Gillen and Littlefinger are a couple of years older than Peter Dinklage and Tyrion, but there's very little in it.

 

It feels as if Cat, Cersei, Ned, Robert, Jamie, and even Littlefinger are all kind of contemporaries.  Since we know Tyrion is younger than Cersei and Jamie - he feels slightly more age appropriate for Sansa, though Lancel likely was closer to her in age right?

[nksarmi]

I just checked a couple of chapter summaries and boy are there still some good things to cover in this book.  I can't wait for your future comments. :)

[jellyroll2]

Tyrian is supposed to be about 25 I think at this point in the book. Lancel is probably around 18 so still not great but def more age appropriate for Sansa.

I just checked a couple of chapter summaries and boy are there still some good things to cover in this book.  I can't wait for your future comments. :)

I'm expecting a ton of "wait, what?!" comments coming as she finishes the book.

[Holmbo]

Tyrian is supposed to be about 25 I think at this point in the book. Lancel is probably around 18 so still not great but def more age appropriate for Sansa.

I think that's true. The hound is also quite young in the books right?

[ambi76]

Sansa 13 (I know, I know) and her wonderful lot of (proposed) creeps and pervs:

 

Sweetrobin 7

 

Joffrey 13/14

 

Loras 17

 

Lancel 17

 

Harrold 18

 

Marillion 19/20

 

Willas (could be anything between 23 to 29)

 

Tyrion 26

 

Sandor 28/29

 

Petyr 31

 

So, yay, Petyr wins.

 

ETA: Except we count Dontos (between 36 and 38)

Edited October 26, 2015 by ambi76

[Holmbo]

How do we know how old Dontos is?

I often forget how young the older generation is in these books. Most of them are in their 30's but they seem so much older.

[ambi76]

How do we know how old Dontos is?

 

Because he was a baby/toddler when the "Defiance of Duskendale" happened. Um, wait, that doesn't work out at all, as that was 277AL. Strange. Usually the Wiki is very accurate with the ages, must look where the mistake is.

 

Okay, the Wiki says he was a "child" at that point. I could have sworn it was always told as very little child i.e. infant. He would have been around 16 given the birth years by the Wiki though, which is not a child by Westerosi standards at all. Weird.

 

Ah, the problem is that Dontos is called a knight of approx 40 around 299AL. So this kinda contradicts the "young boy" historical mentions of him. Well, GRRM didn't quite know how old Olenna was either (claimed she was born in the 30ies but has to be born in 228AL for her TWOIAF stuff to work out) , so it happens.

Edited October 25, 2015 by ambi76