Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Mya Stone]

I am on my way out, and this doesn't pertain to everyone, but I ask you ALL to please reread the pinned post. ANYTHING PAST WHERE SHIMPY IS IN THE BOOK IS A SPOILER.

I don't care if it's covered in the show. I don't care if it's not. PUT IT UNDER SPOILER TAGS. Period.

[nksarmi]

shimpy - your last post was so great!  You have reached the point that made me say Jamie is the character who surprised me the most in the books.  His show counterpart gets hints of his book layers, but for reasons I will never understand they have spent more time on layers Cersei never even had and ignored the wonderland that is Jamie's character development.  Sometimes I wonder if the show characters are of the same mindset as my viewing partner - in that Jamie can never be redeemed because he threw Bran out that window.  I don't know that I think Jamie can be redeemed for that, but his book arc is amazing writing by GRRM in my opinion (in fact, I dare say that to me - Jamie and Tryion - are GRRM's best character writings of the entire series).

 

Anyway, it did stand out to me that Jeyne wanted to go to the wedding pretty bad (and I do love that Robb understand why she couldn't go unlike his dumbass show counterpart) which is why I genuinely believe that no matter who of the Westerlings knew what - Jeyne was innocent.

 

I know you are dreading the Red Wedding in a way, but I think it's important in it's own right and it's a great piece of writing by GRRM.  I don't always think he hits out of the ballpark, but book three really is fantastic in my opinion (almost every bit of it).

[Delta1212]

By the time I got to this Catelyn chapter, I had heard of the Red Wedding. I didn't know what it was exactly, but I'd heard the phrase and knew it was something big and probably bloody. With two weddings coming up, the one at the Twins and Joffrey's, I wasn't sure which it would be, but starting from the point that Robb and Cat set off for the wedding, I had mounting anxiety about it as I began to suspect more and more that this was the one.

[Mya Stone]

By the time I got to this Catelyn chapter, I had heard of the Red Wedding. I didn't know what it was exactly, but I'd heard the phrase and knew it was something big and probably bloody. With two weddings coming up, the one at the Twins and Joffrey's, I wasn't sure which it would be, but starting from the point that Robb and Cat set off for the wedding, I had mounting anxiety about it as I began to suspect more and more that this was the one.

And then there was me, who, in the face of insurmountable foreshadowing and evidence that this wedding would not end well for anyone who's nickname rhymes with Sting of the Fourth, flew through this book with such a hunger that it completely blindsided me.

As the ever quotable Dubya said, "Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, you see, you already fooled me, you can't fool me again."

Except this did. So much.

[Haleth]

Mya, did you just break your own rule? ;)

[Mya Stone]

Mya, did you just break your own rule? ;)

Crap. I kind of did. And since I make the rules, I should really abide by them.

So I'll be explicit for the second time today:

The entire discussion about Balon took it too far. Dial it back. If you can't help but delve into the butterfly effect of all the changes the show makes vs the books...spoiler tag it.

[stillshimpy]

Oh wow, so that was heartbreaking and it wasn't even the wedding.  It was just poor Catelyn going over the sad memories in her mind.  Watching Robb stand on the ruins of a forgotten  Kingdom  of King killed by his own men in rebellion.  Turn back now, Robb, there's a curse on the pace apparently.  Ow.  I don't know what it would be like to read this without knowing: Oh man, he is headed to his doom, but Martin really goes for the heartbreak gusto when he has Robb finally figure out a way to possibly win because Balon Greyjoy's death. 

 

Now I see why you all were tripping out so much over "How did you react to Balon being dead?"  It provides that extra twist of the dagger that is the Red Wedding.  Robb knows he's a dead man, and there's no way to win the war, poring over his maps.  He frets that he hasn't left Jeyne knocked up and who will be his heir?  

 

I see that Martin couldn't quite resist fanning the flames of the Cat hatred for fandom a little, by having her be a jackass about Robb wanting to legitimize Jon Snow, should he die.  That was Cat at her worst and most damnable.  She's a complex characterization at least.  To have her melancholic memories of Ned and how she grew to love him so much, and still just hate the boogers out of an entirely blameless party, no matter whose child he is: Jon.  

 

You know, I was chatting with Mya a bit ago and telling her how sad it all was, and how in the show they concentrated on what a horror show it was, but this is going to be heartbreaking.  Mya and I were talking about the fact that Ned, who is clearly one of my favorite characters, has been dead in fandom for 19 years.   But aside from her treatment of Jon, and then fighting Robb about making him legitimate, I was hoping she'd finally find a way to hope that Ned had known some happiness when he was in a positions similar to Robb's, almost entirely bereft of family, with a chilly stranger for a wife.  

 

So much for that.  Going the grave with a grudge otherwise completely unworthy of her.  

 

It's the scramble to claim the seat on the Iron Islands that makes it at all possible for Robb to have a hope, I see.   So I likely would have had a different reaction to the "wondering what you felt about Balon Grejoy dying?" thing had I read up to this point when you all asked.  It made me want to day drink, it's so damned sad. 

 

Finally some hope for Robb and instead he's just heading right to his death.  

 

So when Stannis offers to legitimize Jon and give him the North, I take it the show was just doubling back on what Robb decided and what was in that letter (that of course, the Show couldn't have Robb be concerned about sending....because Show Robb was too busy making goo-goo eyes at Talisa as they discussed their anticipated bundle of joy. 

 

You know, I really didn't get the outrage over Talisa as an addition, and still don't in terms of the actual character.  But good grief, they certainly torched the shit out of Robb Stark's character for no discernible reason.  

Edited October 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

I think some of the hate about Talisa comes from her hurting Robb Stark's character, taking lines from Cat and thereby reducing Cat's role in the show drastically.

Also it broke some people's suspension of disbelief that the plucky nurse could talk back to the king and start a romance based off that.

But anyways I agree Show Robb got fucked over bad in the character department. At least he a great actor.

Edited October 17, 2015 by WindyNights

[nksarmi]

To me it's not Talisa as a character but what they did to Robb whom I love in the books.  He seems to take the best of both his parents and that still doesn't save him.

[Lady S.]

Uh oh...it's coming.

(Sorry, I'm a believer in the laugh to keep from crying remedy.)

 

shimpy, Jeyne wanting to go to the wedding and one of her brothers actually going as Robb's standard bearer is the main reason I think Lady Westerling pimped out her daughter on her own initiative. Tywin obviously didn't warn her to keep her kids away from this wedding, which imo is a shitty way for a Lannister to pay a debt. Tywin a cold-hearted bastard but he's supposed to be a good master to his own loyal underlings dutifully following his orders. But if Sybell initiated a deal with after the fact to curry favor and escape wrath then I can understand his not feeling a real obligation to her. 

[Alayne Stone]

I am so happy you have finally met the real Jaime Lannister. He is probably in my top five characters that I enjoy reading.

 

And isn’t reading Catelyn Stark so heart wrenching? And yes, you absolutely go from one moment completely empathizing with her and then the next you are reminded of how utterly callous she was toward an innocent child. But that’s just a mark of Martin’s amazing writing and characterizations. I think most people would agree that Catelyn is a “good” character and yet she has this very ugly side to her. And then you have Jaime Lannister, who people would have unequivocally viewed as being a “bad” character in book one, and then suddenly you see these other shades of him. And then you realize that things are never black and white in this universe, as they rarely ever are in life.

 

I came into the books after having already met Talissa, so she didn’t bother me nearly as much as other people. But I can definitely see how that relationship on the show changed Robb’s character. And it took away from Catelyn, which I know a lot of people were upset about. I was never very attached to show Catelyn. In hindsight however, I see what all the fuss was about, especially now that I’ve become such a big fan of book Catelyn.

 

I feel so bad for you, Shimpy! Maybe you should have something like The Princess Bride on standby for when you inevitably get to the end of the road you know you are traveling.

 

Oh, and as always … your comments are as insightful as always. I never even considered the idea that Lyanna’s “Promise me” might have had anything to do with Ned not revealing that she had gone willingly with Rhaegar.

[bobbybuilderton]

I was pretty disappointed with the Red Wedding in the show, mainly because the way it's written is so great that I had such a strong image in my head that I don't think they really needed to add their own (what I'm sure they believe to be) improvements to it. I look forward to shimpy's thoughts on the differences...

[stillshimpy]

Well right now I'm too busy freaking out over the damned Wight that just helped Sam and Gilly mount a bloody Elk.  

 

What the fuck is going on now?  Good freaking lord, who is it?  Is it Benjen? Is it possible for a Zomboni to retain a personality??? 

 

Do not answer any of these questions, please, but do know this is the only time in reading these books that I have been even mildly tempted to just skip forward to the next Samwell chapter to find out what the hell is going on.  

Omg.  I have to go keep cooking too.  My poor guests tonight.  It's fully Vegan meal, so it really is not going to be fitting to suddenly ask, "So....any thoughts on Zombies?  Can they be good?  Trained?"  

 

They're fucking sentient, so you'd think that maybe the show could have included that.  ARGH! 

 

ETA:  So all the Stark kids are Wargs to one extent or another....which presumably has to be a genetic thing and the Ravens all just banded together to help rescue Sam and Gilly, unless that thing on the Elk is like "Here, meals on Hooves, at your service "nomnomnom" so who the hell would that be?  It's a Zomboni that has his vocal shit together.   

 

That's fucking Benjen.  If Elk Taxi isn't Benjen Stark, he better be someone equally amazing because clearly, he isn't about to kill Sam and Gilly and baby no-name.  

Edited October 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

Ahhh that reminds me of all those who refused to give up hope that elk man would be in the show. 

 

He's too interesting and fantasy for them to include. Everything must be bleak and gritty/realistic/shocking. For a show based on a series of fantasy books they are annoyingly hesitant to include fantasy aspects of the story

[Delta1212]

Ah yes, I forgot this was coming up.

[Shanna Marie]

I think my main problem with Robb and Talisa was that she and their relationship were straight out of Hollywood in a way that was totally out of place in this series and in that world. There was the plucky gal with very modern sensibilities arguing with the king on the battlefield and him finding her intriguing. There was him suddenly ditching treaties and very real, practical considerations in the middle of a war because he wanted to marry the person he wanted to marry. It was as though someone had excised this plot line from the books and stuck in pages from a bad historical romance novel.

 

What's funny is that the actor who played Robb was the prince in the recent live-action remake of Cinderella, and there was a scene where he said, "But I want to marry for love," in almost exactly the same tone he used when justifying Robb's marriage to Talisa, and I had an epic giggle fit in the theater and couldn't resist muttering, "Yeah, that's gonna work out real well." The friend I was with has read the books but hasn't seen the TV series, and I realized just how far the two had diverged on this plot when even explaining that this actor was Robb Stark didn't explain it because, in the books, Robb didn't marry for love or even seem to feel like that was an option.

[Haleth]

I think my main problem with Robb and Talisa was that she and their relationship were straight out of Hollywood in a way that was totally out of place in this series and in that world. There was the plucky gal with very modern sensibilities arguing with the king on the battlefield and him finding her intriguing. There was him suddenly ditching treaties and very real, practical considerations in the middle of a war because he wanted to marry the person he wanted to marry. It was as though someone had excised this plot line from the books and stuck in pages from a bad historical romance novel.

Yup.  It was so cliche it made my teeth hurt.  For goodness sake, if Brienne can't keep herself from being thrown into a bear pit, what chance would this foreign, gently born girl all by herself have on a bloody battlefield?  Except in a poorly written romance novel.  

[Eegah]

There's also the way they had the chutzpah to put all the fans' problems with her in the mouth of Walder Frey, thus giving us the message that they equated anyone who didn't like her with him. The manner of her death also really struck me as emotional blackmail, to make it harder to talk about not liking her without looking like an asshole.

[Delta1212]

I've been meaning to block out a video project for a while that would splice together footage from Game of Thrones and Cinderella with a promo for the Bachelor.

I can just hear Chris Harrison talking about "the most dramatic hometown ever" over a clip of Walder Frey giving his sly nod.

[bobbybuilderton]

There's also the way they had the chutzpah to put all the fans' problems with her in the mouth of Walder Frey, thus giving us the message that they equated anyone who didn't like her with him. The manner of her death also really struck me as emotional blackmail, to make it harder to talk about not liking her without looking like an asshole.

Trust me they aren't that smart. It was just to make it more shocking because they can't tell a decent story otherwise. Honestly that was around when my interest started waning. Everything about the way they did the wedding had the stink of (poorly done) emotional manipulation and I was disgusted by it. Which makes this part of shimpy's post deciding to read the books stick out to me:

 

 

Tell a story with a lot of emotional impact and I react?  Fair play to you, Show.  Tell a story designed to gut me and then try to play off as if it was for funsies?  No.  That is not fair play.

Edited October 17, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[WindyNights]

Ahhh that reminds me of all those who refused to give up hope that elk man would be in the show.

He's too interesting and fantasy for them to include. Everything must be bleak and gritty/realistic/shocking. For a show based on a series of fantasy books they are annoyingly hesitant to include fantasy aspects of the story

Which is kinda funny once you

realize that they had the COTF chug a magic grenade at a zomboni and making some of the wights just pure skeletons which gave them look a cartoony flavor

[Lavignac]

Ah, the Elk rider... In the chapter Shimpy read, did they refer to him by a name/title/descriptor yet?

I assume the showrunners went "no-way" on the elk- riding for CGI budget and "cartoon" expectations like book-Daario, but couldn't he have appeared on foot? His absence on the show made several fans puzzled about what this means for his importance, like any cut character...

Robb's supposed Jon-legitimizing letter has also fuelled lots of fan hopes and discussions, it was a fist-pumping moment for me!

Edit:

Since Shimpy did notice the strangely insistent murder of crows, allow me to point out their appearance on the show, reshuffled to the scene where Sam became the Slayer...

Edited October 18, 2015 by Lavignac

[nksarmi]

Well right now I'm too busy freaking out over the damned Wight that just helped Sam and Gilly mount a bloody Elk.  

 

What the fuck is going on now?  Good freaking lord, who is it?  Is it Benjen? Is it possible for a Zomboni to retain a personality??? 

 

Do not answer any of these questions, please, but do know this is the only time in reading these books that I have been even mildly tempted to just skip forward to the next Samwell chapter to find out what the hell is going on.  

Omg.  I have to go keep cooking too.  My poor guests tonight.  It's fully Vegan meal, so it really is not going to be fitting to suddenly ask, "So....any thoughts on Zombies?  Can they be good?  Trained?"  

 

They're fucking sentient, so you'd think that maybe the show could have included that.  ARGH! 

 

ETA:  So all the Stark kids are Wargs to one extent or another....which presumably has to be a genetic thing and the Ravens all just banded together to help rescue Sam and Gilly, unless that thing on the Elk is like "Here, meals on Hooves, at your service "nomnomnom" so who the hell would that be?  It's a Zomboni that has his vocal shit together.   

 

That's fucking Benjen.  If Elk Taxi isn't Benjen Stark, he better be someone equally amazing because clearly, he isn't about to kill Sam and Gilly and baby no-name.  

Oh my gosh, what would you ever say to an unsullied now that you have met this guy and learned that all the Starks are wargs?  :)

[Hecate7]

Yup.  It was so cliche it made my teeth hurt.  For goodness sake, if Brienne can't keep herself from being thrown into a bear pit, what chance would this foreign, gently born girl all by herself have on a bloody battlefield?  Except in a poorly written romance novel.  

 

 

Thank you! This!

[jellyroll2]

Ahh, she's finally met "Elk Rider". (I believe his name Isn't revealed until we see Sam again). So for now let's keep Elk Rider. Just the first of a slew of characters you've yet to meet Shimpy where you'll go "wait, what? Who's this now?!"

And Mya I was just like you. I was so engrossed in the story, so absorbed in wanting to know what happened next, that the RW came out of left field for me. Did not see it coming AT ALL. Especially after him coming up with the plan to re-take the North, deciding on his heir should he die childless, etc. I was pumped. Knew this was gonna be a turning point but not in the way it was. Like I said before, still remember where I was and what time it was I read that chapter. Along with the nauseous hollow feeling I had during and after that chapter.

I don't think they did a terrible job with the RW on the show (other than Robb's character being a dumbass and Talisa being a joke at that point). No, it did not live up to the written version but it wasn't bad. What I do think they blew was the aftermath.

The RW was such a destabilizing event and they just did not follow through on the effect it had on the people in the Riverlands, the North and the smallfolk in general in Westeros. They haven't shown the Freys or Riverlands in 2 years. Where are the northern lords? Didn't reflect how the RW contributed to the rise of the Faith Militant. Just completely went for the shock and no follow through whatsoever.

[Protar]

Yup.  It was so cliche it made my teeth hurt.  For goodness sake, if Brienne can't keep herself from being thrown into a bear pit, what chance would this foreign, gently born girl all by herself have on a bloody battlefield?  Except in a poorly written romance novel.  

 

And this is another problem with Talisa. She hurts the consistency of the setting and reveals the writers for the hypocrites that they are. They will happily hide behind the "historical accuracy" defence any time there's some controversy over how the show treats women. But they'll just as happily ditch said historical accuracy when they want to have a cliche romance, or prostitutes working for free, or all the female characters having full brazilians. It reveals their true intent - they don't truly have anything to say about how the female characters are treated in the story, how the patriarchy affects their thoughts (something I would argue Martin definitely is doing). They're just using it for cheap shocks. And Talisa is the prime example of this inconsistency.

[nksarmi]

jellyroll2 - 100% agree with your spoiler tag - that might be the biggest disappointment of the series

and when you factor in the failure that is Dorne thus far that is saying something.

[magdalene]

The main thing that felt different to me about the RW in the books vrs the show is that in the book in feels like a horrific event that is earned through the narrative.. While in the show it's a cheap and lurid thing, what with the stabbing in the pregnant belly of their stupidly invented character. And 

the consequences don't have the same effect because the show cut the Riverlands and LSH and replaced it with that dumb Dorne plot.

 

Jaime. Yes, from this point on, his dream about Brienne and the bear pit I have all this affection for him. I realize that his impulses as a swordsman - a swordsman has to act and react lightning fast - can lead to deeds one will hate him or laud him for. I like that he is not a plotter or a schemer and I also like that he is trying to be less impulsive and think more before he acts.  I like the way he thinks and looks at the world. I like the snark he armors himself with. I like his sense of people.  He is pretty smart about people for the most part in ASOS. Of course he is not smart about Cersei. Wake up, Jaime! Cersei may be your twin but she is nothing like you, she has no empathy and she doesn't love you the way you love her, she loves you only as an extension of herself. Wake up and smell the narcissist.

[Holmbo]

If this is gonna keep being a thread about how terrible the show adaptation is/was I will have to show myself out. I did not like the recent season but apart from that I think the show has done a mostly superb job of adapting the novels to a mainstream tv show with all the limitations that entails. I think the RW was very good on screen.

Anyways I shouldn't even mention the show at all since that will probably just bring up discussions if the show is terrible or not which I don't really want to have. I'd rather discuss the books but my hands are a bit tied by me not wanting to draw from content in the later books. For example I wanted to ask if anyone find Cersei and Tywin the most similar of the Lanisters. But I don't know how much one can say about Cersei at this point. What is your impression of her in the books so far Shimpy?

[ambi76]

I think Cersei and Tyrion are the most similar of the Lannisters.

Seriously, some of their thought processes (especially when ticked off) in AFFC/ADWD sound exactly the same.

 

Did you mean Tyrion, Holmbo? I don't think we know enough about Tywin to tell.

Edited October 19, 2015 by ambi76

[Holmbo]

No I meant Tywin. Sure we don't know for sure what's going on inside his head so it might just be my interpretation.

[nksarmi]

I think this particular read through is going to naturally lend itself to a critique of the show and shimpy and other posters have talked about things the show has done well. I'm positive that all readers have something from the books that they really wanted in the show and some of them seem like simple things to bring in. One such thing for me was establishing that all Stark children are wargs.  I think this will matter in the books.  And it made me so sad when I first read shimpy say that she hated the use of the wolves in the show (as cheap emotional tricks when one is killed off) because it was a sign to me of how poorly the show has conveyed the importance of the wolves to the Stark children.

 

But that isn't the point.  The point is reading an unsullied's take not only on the books but also on the show's adaptation on the books.  So yea, there is going to be a lot of "the show screwed this up" stuff, but I for one am loving it.  Not because it's bashing on the show, but because I am fascinated by all the impressions the show incorrectly gave viewers and watching this stuff get cleared up for shimpy has made for some serious laugh out loud moments for me. 

 

And its such a great way to spend time waiting for the new territory of season six or book six - whichever comes first. :)

[Delta1212]

I think this particular read through is going to naturally lend itself to a critique of the show and shimpy and other posters have talked about things the show has done well. I'm positive that all readers have something from the books that they really wanted in the show and some of them seem like simple things to bring in. One such thing for me was establishing that all Stark children are wargs. I think this will matter in the books. And it made me so sad when I first read shimpy say that she hated the use of the wolves in the show (as cheap emotional tricks when one is killed off) because it was a sign to me of how poorly the show has conveyed the importance of the wolves to the Stark children.

But that isn't the point. The point is reading an unsullied's take not only on the books but also on the show's adaptation on the books. So yea, there is going to be a lot of "the show screwed this up" stuff, but I for one am loving it. Not because it's bashing on the show, but because I am fascinated by all the impressions the show incorrectly gave viewers and watching this stuff get cleared up for shimpy has made for some serious laugh out loud moments for me.

And its such a great way to spend time waiting for the new territory of season six or book six - whichever comes first. :)

I agree with you, but I also agree that there as been an awful lot of "the writers are terrible people who destroyed this story out of stupidity and greed" side comments the last couple of pages that may have gone a little bit over the line from just being critique, and I can see how that might make some people who enjoy the show uncomfortable.

Maybe going forward we can focus a bit more on the contrast between the two and a little less on the moral failings of the writers/producers?

[nksarmi]

I agree with you, but I also agree that there as been an awful lot of "the writers are terrible people who destroyed this story out of stupidity and greed" side comments the last couple of pages that may have gone a little bit over the line from just being critique, and I can see how that might make some people who enjoy the show uncomfortable.

Maybe going forward we can focus a bit more on the contrast between the two and a little less on the moral failings of the writers/producers?

 

Hmmm, yea well I hope so.  Of course we all know that the rants by readers get more severe as the seasons go on, but I'm more interested in shimpy's take on the little nuisances that seem to change the trajectory of a character (like her take on the Reeds and Osha) than the big things readers have been ranting on for awhile.

[Haleth]

Sorry, Delta and Holbo. I'll dial back my rants.

[glowbug]

I think that discussions regarding Robb and Jamie are nearly always going to inspire some outrage from book readers because for many of us these two characters were among the most poorly rendered characters on the show. Shimpy is at a Robb and Jamie centric part of the series so the criticism of the show is high. While the show in general does not compare favorably to the books as is often the case with movie/television adaptations, I think the more extreme negativity will die down a bit once we get to parts of the books with less focus on those two characters.

That is until we get to Dorne.

Edited October 19, 2015 by glowbug

[nksarmi]

And Sansa/the North Remembers story. But we have two books for that. :)

I think that discussions regarding Robb and Jamie are nearly always going to inspire some outrage from book readers because for many of us these two characters were among the most poorly rendered characters on the show. Shimpy is at a Robb and Jamie centric part of the series so the criticism of the show is high. While the show in general does not compare favorably to the books as is often the case with movie/television adaptations, I think the more extreme negativity will die down a bit once we get to parts of the books with less focus on those two characters.

That is until we get to Dorne.

[Holmbo]

The outrage gets boring though because it's been said so many times before already. I understand that people want to share their thoughts with Shimpy who hasn't participate in the discussion before. But for everyone else it's likely to be things that's been said countless of times already. Perhaps I'm just overly sensitive to it though. I generally prefer not to focus on the things I dislike. I could easily rant about lots of things from both the show and the books.

[WindyNights]

I would say that if you combine Tyrion and Cersei together that you get Tywin

Edited October 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

I don't know, I think Tyrion really is very much like Tywin all on his own. We get inside Tyrion's head more, but just in terms of actions, Tyrion is very good at organizing and manipulation, political strategy and we've seen him be plenty ruthless as far as people who get in his way go.

I think the real differences come from the fact that because of his physical condition and generally being discounted by those around him, Tyrion is a bit more willing than Tywin to be open about his vices and with his compassion/pity.

And I don't think that it's so much that Tywin doesn't have those same qualities himself, so much as that

he's reacting against what he sees as having been dangerous weaknesses in father and so restrains himself from displaying those qualities, especially in public where others might see them as weaknesses in himself

.

Cersei, I think, just utterly lacks empathy and and is a much less cunning version of her father and younger brother.

I think that all four of the Lannisters in this nuclear family share a powerful ambitious streak and a desire to be respected, and I think the children especially (though I suspect it a bit of Tywin as well) all share a fear that their self-perceived skills and abilities will be/are being unjustly overlooked (because of dwarfism/being a woman/being the Kingslayer) and are somewhat prone to self-pity about their lot in the world.

I think this is both a commentary on Tywin as a father, and also potentially a way of revealing some of Tywin's own psyche indirectly. Because if all three of his children have the same neuroses, they had to have gotten it from somewhere, and that's liable to be both a bit of nurture and nature at play there. I think Tywin's just a bit better at holding up the mask than any of his children are.

[magdalene]

 

I think that all four of the Lannisters in this nuclear family share a powerful ambitious streak and a desire to be respected, and I think the children especially (though I suspect it a bit of Tywin as well) all share a fear that their self-perceived skills and abilities will be/are being unjustly overlooked (because of dwarfism/being a woman/being the Kingslayer) and are somewhat prone to self-pity about their lot in the world.

I don't see a powerful ambitious streak in Jaime.  He has no political ambitions, he has no ambition to get power, he has no desire to inherit Casterly Rock. Yes, he wants to be respected and not despised - but who doesn't wish that.

[nodorothyparker]

Jaime enjoys the trappings of being a Lannister and wants what he wants.  But he has little interest in the game playing and scheming required to grab a bigger piece of the pie.  Cersei and Tyrion both want power and to be taken seriously and equate playing the game with earning those things.  All three of them use defensive snark to mask a powerful hunger for approval, which isn't really surprising considering they have Tywin as a father.

[Delta1212]

I don't see a powerful ambitious streak in Jaime. He has no political ambitions, he has no ambition to get power, he has no desire to inherit Casterly Rock. Yes, he wants to be respected and not despised - but who doesn't wish that.

It's less obvious because the other three are all playing the same game while Jaime's ambition has a different outlet. He doesn't want to be the king, he wants to be champion knight famed for his skill and heroism. You don't get as good at anything as Jaime is supposed to be with a sword without at least a slight obsession with being the best, natural talent or no.

And he effectively admits

that he wanted to be Arthur Dayne. And unlike most children with a childhood hero, he follows through on the work required to make that happen, even if circumstances and his own personality derail things for him a bit.

He doesn't just want love and respect. He wants to be admired for being the best. That is a form of ambition.

[mac123x]

I see that Martin couldn't quite resist fanning the flames of the Cat hatred for fandom a little, by having her be a jackass about Robb wanting to legitimize Jon Snow, should he die.  That was Cat at her worst and most damnable.  She's a complex characterization at least.  To have her melancholic memories of Ned and how she grew to love him so much, and still just hate the boogers out of an entirely blameless party, no matter whose child he is: Jon.

 

That was one of the few times when I didn't despise Catelyn, since she had a legitimate (npi) point.  "You trust Jon, but can you trust his sons?".  Westeros had suffered through 4 generations of rebellions because Aegon IV legitimized his bastards.  So her concern was valid.  Maybe if she hadn't been so nasty to Jon all his life, Robb might have listened to her.  As it was, I could easily see him dismissing her argument because he could attribute it to "she always hated Jon".

 

Maybe going forward we can focus a bit more on the contrast between the two and a little less on the moral failings of the writers/producers?

 

Agreed, and I'd like to point out one spot where I thought the show actually improved on the written word:  Jaime and Brienne in the bathtub.  The chapter was from his POV; he noted to himself that he must be feeling feverish otherwise he wouldn't tell the story, but most of his dialog came across as flippant.  The show was from 3rd person POV, so the audience could genuinely see the physical and mental distress Jaime was in.  It was much easier to see why he'd be babbling about a secret that he's kept for years.

 

Also, the show wisely cut out Jaime getting an erection when he sees Brienne naked.  NCW even noted on the DVD commentary track that he thought it was a good move

[bobbybuilderton]

Nit picking, but I don't think he got an erection. Just a lil twitch that he was confused by :P

[WindyNights]

@Delta Well Tyrion

considers himself Tywin writ small and Genna said Tyrion was Tywin's real son not Jaime. I'm not saying they're twins but Tyrion's empathy has been smaller every book.

[Hecate7]

It's less obvious because the other three are all playing the same game while Jaime's ambition has a different outlet. He doesn't want to be the king, he wants to be champion knight famed for his skill and heroism. You don't get as good at anything as Jaime is supposed to be with a sword without at least a slight obsession with being the best, natural talent or no.

And he effectively admits

that he wanted to be Arthur Dayne. And unlike most children with a childhood hero, he follows through on the work required to make that happen, even if circumstances and his own personality derail things for him a bit.

He doesn't just want love and respect. He wants to be admired for being the best. That is a form of ambition.

 

 

That is a good point, and it's probably at least half of why I've begun to sympathize with him.

[stillshimpy]

The outrage gets boring though because it's been said so many times before already.

 

I can appreciate your position on that Holmbo, particularly because it would be old to you.  

 

It is, however, completely new to me so I actually appreciate finally being able to have a conversation with people that contrasts feelings from long time readers with the show, even when those feelings get heated or reflect disappointment.  The way I ended up in here at all was that I was just done, that's how ticked off at the show I was.  It felt like they were emotionally screwing with me on purpose and with no dramatic point at all.  

 

I've mentioned before I have a lot friends who read the books, my son ended up reading the books, my BIL has read the read the books.  I really wanted to find out "Good God, what worth is there in these tales?  Animals exist to emotionally manipulate an audience.  Nothing good or heartening,   of fun ever happens to anyone."  but I knew that there had to be some fun in them because people I like, respect and find to be completely charming as human being saw a lot of worth in them. 

 

I get how the outrage is old to you, it isn't to me. I'm just glad to find out that there are areas where I can read something and say "Why in the world would they leave out the guy who is pretty clearly Dead Benjen....who HELPS SAM???"  Why make it more dire and depressing?  

 

So anyway, I am honestly sorry it's bothering you.  I kind of doubt it's going to stop being a factor for me personally though and this is my first time expressing frustration with it.  I've never suggested that the showrunners are bad people and I'm not about to start.  I'm also extremely unlikely to stop having negative reactions to some of the changes.  I hope you stay.  If you don't will understand why. 

 

I'm all the way through to the chapter that ends with Ygritte dying and ....wow....that was heartbreaking and moving as a series of chapters.  I felt freaking sorry for the Thenns, the disciplined Thenns, as close to the people of the South -- who are easier for me to understand as I have always lived in a world with structures -- as they all burned to death.  Ygritte's death in the book moved me, although I completely understand why she annoyed people.  

 

I like that she gave Jon a way to Understand Ned -- who it doesn't matter if Ned is his father or isn't, Jon thinks he is -- to not judge him or even his won existence so harshly:  Wrong to stay and wrong to leave.  It's like Jaime's choice of killing Aerys:  It wasn't like there was a good option when it came to honor and sometimes necessity has to rule the day, even among those who simply wish to do right and may actually even love one another. 

 

I mean, that's some emotional momentum the show lost.  Ygritte in the Show is shown to be very personally about "I GET TO KILL JON" in a kind of stereotypical fashion of the woman scorned.  But she's not bent on the "You left me! I am furious!" of it all.  She just had to choose her own form of doing right and being honorable.  If it had included killing Jon, she would have done it.  But they did love each other and ultimately it wasn't what either would have personally chosen.  But circumstances choose. 

 

Yeah, I know, I've yet to talk about The Red Wedding.  Oh lord guys.  Okay, I am about to try.   This is probably going to be disjointed, because none of it was easy to read and it was all almost crushingly sad. I actually just started crying at "the red will run" from Walder Frey.  He's just so damned evil and poor, foolish Catelyn, so desperately trying to invoke the rules of the sheltered guest -- reminding Robb to do it immediately, because she just doesn't get it:  Her world is gone.  

 

Every damned Frey at the wedding knew what was going to happen.  I see that the legend of what they did to Robb's body is still passed around regardless and just don't get lower than desecrating corpses.  I doubt I'll ever see it, but Walder Frey deserves ever terrible thing that can happen to him.  That bedding ceremony is just as hideous and horrible as it was described as being and I hated every single person at the Freys....who clearly knew....including poor Roslin.  Catelyn feeling sorry for Roslin made me almost physically ill.  

 

So the Starks are almost entirely dead in the story.  It was a horrible chapter to read.  I can't say that I think it was truly a worthwhile one.  The only thing I learned was that it was pretty much as horrible, cowardly and evil as it was on the show....just a little bit less Nightmare on Elm Street.  

 

Tywin justifying his evil, honor-breaking bullshit with "Is it really better too..." oh what a crock.  Tywin Lannister never cares who suffers as long as he wins.  

 

Again, in no particular order, I thought it interesting that Mance really was looking for the Horn of Winter.  Maybe the key to winning any of this stuff lies in believing in that which is supposed to be impossible. 

 

"For joy," Roslin said,  "I weep for joy, my lord."   Oh man.  I don't want to dislike the poor thing, it's not like she had any choice and she could save them at that point anyway.  They have just done terrible things to her as it was anyway.  Still, in that moment, I really disliked her.  At least have the decency not to cover for this heinous shit, kid.  Just cry and say, "It's nothing." or say nothing at all.  But covering for the reason was just?  Yeah, I didn't like her even a little bit.  

 

Also, in a weirdly uneven moment, I got to like Robert for a moment there.  I don't think children should be hit, by the way, but that Robert hit Joffrey for (pretty clearly) torturing a cat caused me to make this note in my Kindle, "yay Robert" 

 

Also, Salla knows Stannis had Renly killed, so I'm assuming somewhere in there Stannis does not know it too.  "He will not do it," said Davos. "He could not harm his own blood."  "Lord Renly will be glad to hear this."   Poor Davos, clinging to his own denial there too.   

 

I got to the point where Patchface was just annyone me again, "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos.  He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang, "I know, I know, oh oh oh."   What the hell is the real deal with Patchface?  

 

Another quote: "had more of their look than Stannis had ever shared; the coal-black hair, the deep blue eyes"  about Edric, Renly and Robert.  So apparently even in the book Stannis the Baratheon who didn't look much like a Baratheon.  

 

Another quote: "....did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went yp war against each other/ And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him?"  

 

That's essentially the same story from where Robb stood, by the nearly faceless King, on the forgotten Kingdom, on the way to The Twins.  The world makes the same mistakes over and over, and I wondered if it is part of the cycle of waking the Whitewalkers, and bringing back magic?  Do they break their societal structures, the rules that keep everything in place....the rules of man.....and when they do that and the chaos ensues, that's when magic reawakens and all the forces from both sides to try and start restoring order to that world.  I also wondered if it is why they never get a chance to progress.  Whenever they do, they just tear each other to shreds and it all starts over. 

 

And finally, my last note has to do with Satin and Jon (Satin looks like Kit Harrington in that description) ....I liked that they got a last meal that was really, all things considered, rather good....and that Jon had the sense to eat his, and urged Satin too also.  

 

And speaking of the "Oh fuck off show" I am glad that Ollie was a show construct.  I sort of ended up hating that guy. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Stannis does look like a Baratheon. He just doesn't look like robert and Renly who were both handsome and near-identical

Stannis also has deep set blue eyes and coal black hair although Stannis is bald on top. It's he has mistrustful eyes whereas Renly and Robert's were more friendly.

Stannis also has deep set blue eyes and coal black hair althoufh Stannis is bald on top. It's he has mistrustful eyes whereas Renly and Robert's were more friendly.

Edited October 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[Protar]

I think one of the aspects of the Red Wedding that I missed from the show was the northerners actually putting up a fight. Smalljon Umber knocking people out with legs of ham, Dacey trying to take everyone on. I think that that's really the main message of the books - horrible stuff happens but that doesn't mean we can't be defiant until the end. It's about the perseverance of the human spirit in the face of adversity, whether that ends up working or not. This just flies right over the show's end and instead they just wallow in the misery of it. Right up to rigging a pregnancy just so they can have a bit more horror.