Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Dev F]

Dorne?

 

That's the one!

[Skywarpgold]

Ah, but which grandfather got the first letter? Just curious, is it pronounceable (for example, AL) or do you have to pronounce each letter (for example JR)? Just wondering.

 

It's like JR, both consonants, so they just put them alphabetically :-)

[stillshimpy]

Clearly you must name your child nothing but vowels, Skywarpgold, although you wife might reasonably object and ultimately win.  Cancel that plan, on second thought.  Although little Aeiouy Gold would have been the delight of substitute teachers everyone :-D  By the way, you just know some parent decided to name their poor child Qwerty and thought themselves very clever indeed, never dreaming that thirty years hence, people will look at them blankly and say, "What's a...key...board?"  

 

Okay, so I've met Daario and good lord.  So that has to be the character everyone sees as cartoon.  He's just one small step away from Duck Tales rendering of Christopher Columbus:  "I Claim this India in the name of Spain" while rolling up on the moon.   

 

I wish I didn't know it was Barristan telling all the tales of Rhaegar , who just sort of annoys me as another stereotype.   Skilled in battle.  Sad souled poet, singer of songs.  What went on the day he was born?  Did his twin croak or something?   Also, I love how everyone is all "Eh...Elia was bound to die soon anyway, consumption....Seven Kingdoms style, or something equally lingering, pale and tragic..."  

 

And then I read Arya's chapter and nearly fell off my darned chair.  So.  Okay, where to start there? 

 

As soon as the hairnet was introduced it was obvious that the show swapped in a snood for a necklace, possibly because they worried that handing a bunch of people dialogue that featured "snood" a lot would cause hilarity aplenty both on set and in the living rooms of the world.  So Sansa's the maid with purple snakes (amethysts) dripping poison.  I'm at least a little bit glad the murder weapon was not quite as ridiculous in the book as on the show, although everyone must have known as soon as Dontos handed over an accessory that it should have come with instruction: "Don't bit the gems to check for authenticity, whatever you do!" 

 

So slays a Savage Giant in a castle made of Snow?  That out to be interesting?  Hoat is the goat? Maybe?  Arya's practically the Angel of Death and makes the crone cry  (not since the freaking hybrid as the jump drive in battlestars has their been so much silly talk assigned a character as the Crone...and I'm wondering if RDM actually read the GoT books, because when the Hybrid tells Kara she is the Harbinger of Death, I started to wonder about uh....an homage, shall we say?  in BSG) 

 

But of course, the big gobsmacker (aside from all the terribly depressing shit about how The Red Wedding is totally going down, fade to black....and apparently Brynden stayed at Riverrun?  So...the Blackfish didn't escape the Red Wedding, he just dies under siege at Riverrun?  I guess I will find out)  ...is Wylla was Edric Dayne's wet nurse and Jon's "Milk Brother" ....but clearly, Wylla was just Jon's wet nurse too, even if no one knows that.  

 

So at least they've introduced the whole "Ned and Ashara" complete with people flinging themselves from towers ....which would actually explain why Ned never thought about her....if bearing his child shamed her so much she fucking killed herself.  Yeah, that's not a love affair you'd want to revisit in your mind and would help explain why he'd take the poor thing back to Winterfell, but it's just as likely that Ned stopped by the Dayne's on his way home to Winterfell....and had Wylla with him as Jon's wetnurse....except I can't quite figure out why the hell she'd be there....? 

 

Oh screw it, this "Who's Jon's mom?" game gets too silly sometimes, because if Jon is Lyanna's son, then there had to be a wet nurse at the ready, or else he'd have simply died.  It's really not all that exceptionally complicated.  Newborns need to eat, pretty much immediately and kind of continuously.   There had to be a food source wherever Jon's little infant self was, otherwise, Jon dies.  

 

However, I haven't seen Martin demonstrate such a keen understanding of they way much of this stuff works to think he'd necessarily know that....except for how he just introduced a darned wet nurse into the equation.  

 

Must run. 

[Delta1212]

Yes, it was Daario I was talking about when I said I can't help but picture him as a cartoon.

[ambi76]

Sad souled poet, singer of songs.  What went on the day he was born?  Did his twin croak or something?

 

Oh yeah, Prince Rhaegar the melancholical (chronically depressed) "rapist", is such a dreamboat it's almost funny.

 

As for who died when he was born if you want the known historical facts so far, which are a bit nebulous because GRRM wants to keep the big reveal for Dunk and Egg Part 13 (published in 2053 or so):

His great grand father Aegon V his oldest great uncle (that had abdicated the throne for love and in favor of Rhaegar's grandfather) and probably many other Targs of those generations died in a fire at Summerhall that was presumably meant to wake some dragons from stone eggs.

Edited October 15, 2015 by ambi76

[Dev F]

Okay, so I've met Daario and good lord.  So that has to be the character everyone sees as cartoon.  He's just one small step away from Duck Tales rendering of Christopher Columbus:  "I Claim this India in the name of Spain" while rolling up on the moon. 

 

Yeah, he's pretty ludicrous. I actually think the original show!Daario did a better job of toning down the silliness while retaining the essence of the character, even though show!Daario 2.0 is clearly a stronger actor. The idea of the character in the book is that he's the sort of ridiculous scoundrel that a teenage girl might foolishly think is very dashing and sexy, and Ed Skrein has the sort of boy-band douchiness that a modern teen might embarrassingly swoon over. Michiel Huisman, on the other hand, comes acress as actually charming, which takes the character in quite a different direction.

 

Oh screw it, this "Who's Jon's mom?" game gets too silly sometimes, because if Jon is Lyanna's son, then there had to be a wet nurse at the ready, or else he'd have simply died.

 

I assume Wylla was there when Jon was born. As one of the Kingsguard charged with protecting Lyanna, Arthur Dayne could've summoned her from Starfall to the Tower of Joy oversee the birth.

 

And now I'm imagining an extremely silly ruse, by which Ned would've had to sneak Wylla back into Starfall and then have her meet him as he came in with the news that she'd just had his baby. I'm guessing Ashara was involved in the deception ("Oh, yeah, Wylla's been with me the whole time, didn't you see her?"), which is probably part of the reason why she killed herself.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Dev F

[nksarmi]

Oh cool, I'm glad you meet Daario so I can openly say that I was disappointed in the recast.  To me, the first actor perfectly embodied Daario of the book.  The new guys seems relatively normal - almost Bron or Jamie like. 

 

Anyway...I am so unsure of the timeline of all of this.  It seems that people think Ashara and Ned fell in love at Harranhal - so ok, but if Ned knocked her up then, could that have fit in with the timeline of Jon's age and the rebellion?  And if Ned knew he had gotten her pregnant, wouldn't he have insisted on marrying her?  At the time, Catelyn is engaged to Brandon so why wouldn't Ned have pursued Ashara openly? I mean, she is noble and I don't think his father would have denied him, right?

 

And honestly, if Ned got Ashara pregnant at any point after Brandon's death but before his marriage to Catelyn and knew about it, wouldn't he have just told Tully no and married Ashara? I mean he doesn't seem like the type who would have married Catelyn if it meant dishonoring another noble woman (cue Robb's choice in the books).  Plus of course, all of this would have meant that Jon was older than Robb and that isn't supposed to be the case.

 

So if Ned has to have gotten Ashara pregnant after Catelyn was pregnant with Robb, when the heck did he have time in the middle of the rebellion? And honestly, I can't see it happening afterwards.  I mean, I just can't imagine she was in the mood to knock boots with him when he was returning the sword of her brother after killing him in battle.  And what, did he stick around for nine months waiting for the baby to be born before he returned to Catelyn? 

 

None of the Ashara is Jon's mother theories make sense to me, but maybe I am missing some facts from the timeline. 

 

Oh and I'm glad you've read the stuff about Sansa because I totally missed the implication that she will slay a Titan at a Castle made of Snow the first time around and have been pleasantly surprised with what people on this site thinks that means.

Edited October 15, 2015 by nksarmi

[ElizaD]

Yeah, he's pretty ludicrous. I actually think the original show!Daario did a better job of toning down the silliness while retaining the essence of the character, even though show!Daario 2.0 is clearly a stronger actor. The idea of the character in the book is that he's the sort of ridiculous scoundrel that a teenage girl might foolishly think is very dashing and sexy, and Ed Skrein has the sort of boy-band douchiness that a modern teen might embarrassing swoon over. Michiel Huisman, on the other hand, comes acress as actually charming, which takes the character in quite a different direction.

 

This is why I preferred the first Show Daario, he had such an instantly sleazy look that he seemed to inspire the authentic "what the hell, Dany?!" reaction despite having been toned down for TV. IMO, the recast ultimately led to Daario being a pretty dull character (he's more attractive, but in a forgettable way); in the books, there's at least some kind of trainwreck amusement to be found in going Dany, nooo, how can you be into this guy?

 

Even if there had been no rebellion, Ned/Ashara might not have worked out. They were from the opposite ends of Westeros, he was a second son who didn't offer a big boost of useful prestige/power to a Dornish family, and Ashara would have had to leave her very different southern life to go north, knowing that she would likely never meet her family again.

[nksarmi]

This is why I preferred the first Show Daario, he had such an instantly sleazy look that he seemed to inspire the authentic "what the hell, Dany?!" reaction despite having been toned down for TV. IMO, the recast ultimately led to Daario being a pretty dull character (he's more attractive, but in a forgettable way); in the books, there's at least some kind of trainwreck amusement to be found in going Dany, nooo, how can you be into this guy?

 

Even if there had been no rebellion, Ned/Ashara might not have worked out. They were from the opposite ends of Westeros, he was a second son who didn't offer a big boost of useful prestige/power to a Dornish family, and Ashara would have had to leave her very different southern life to go north, knowing that she would likely never meet her family again.

 

Oh if the story went that Ned pursued her hand in marriage but her father denied it and she killed herself because of it ala Romeo and Juliet, I might have believed it.  But while I am perfectly willing to believe that Ned loved her and wanted her over Catelyn - I can't believe he got her pregnant and dishonored her.

[WindyNights]

@nksarmi People can change though. Jaime wasn't always a bastard for instance.

 

Also if Jon is Lyanna's kid then he would be older than Robb regardless of whether he's Lyanna's or Ashara's. Ned lied to Cat and everyone else about his age. Jon's most likely months older than he thinks he is.

 

Which is actually kinda sad. Jon was so deceived about his life that he doesn't even know when his actual birthday is.

 

@Eliza Eh, he was the second son to the Lord Paramount of the North. That's pretty big. But a northern alliance probably wasn't really useful for a Dornish lord so....

 

Book Daario is awesome. He's so ridiculously ludricous that he's become painfully entertaining to me. He has a PURPLE/BLUE BEARD, GOLDEN MUSTACHIOS, BLUE NAIL POLISH and naked lady pommels for his swords rofl

Edited October 15, 2015 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

I’m so glad Shimpy has read the second encounter with the creepy woman on High Heart hill.

 

"The king is dead, is that sour enough for you?"
Arya's heart caught in her throat.
"Which bloody king is dead, crone?" Lem demanded.
"The wet one. The kraken king, m'lords.I dreamt him dead and he died, and the iron squids now turn on one another. Oh, and Lord Hoster Tully's died too, but you know that, don't you? In the hall of kings, the goat sits alone and fevered as the great dog descends on him."

 

I think quite a few people (based on some of the previous comments people had spoiler tagged) were wondering what your reaction was to the bolded part, considering he’s still alive in the Show continuity.

[jellyroll2]

Yeah, he's pretty ludicrous. I actually think the original show!Daario did a better job of toning down the silliness while retaining the essence of the character, even though show!Daario 2.0 is clearly a stronger actor. The idea of the character in the book is that he's the sort of ridiculous scoundrel that a teenage girl might foolishly think is very dashing and sexy, and Ed Skrein has the sort of boy-band douchiness that a modern teen might embarrassingly swoon over. Michiel Huisman, on the other hand, comes acress as actually charming, which takes the character in quite a different direction.

See, this is what I was saying! While Huisman does a good job, he's not book!Daario by any means while Skrein got the whole essence of "shady character that Dany needs to stay far away from" down pat. Daario is supposed to be someone you side eye Dany about.

 

One of the Ashara theories is that it wasn't Ned who knocked her up, it was Brandon.

 

And I do believe Wylla was at the TOJ during the birth and is one of the people wandering around Westeros who knows the true story. I also think Ashara knew the deal and was probably the one who told Ned where Lyanna was. Jon likely is older than Robb. But considering Ned's argument was going to be Jon was his son, you think Cat had it out for Jon already? Imagine that same situation with Jon as the oldest son now?

Edited October 15, 2015 by jellyroll2

[Protar]

You know, I think they could have pulled off blue haired Daario on the show. Muted the colours a little bit, like they did with Jaqen's hair colour. 

[Lady S.]

I’m so glad Shimpy has read the second encounter with the creepy woman on High Heart hill.

 

 

 

 

I think quite a few people (based on some of the previous comments people had spoiler tagged) were wondering what your reaction was to the bolded part, considering he’s still alive in the Show continuity.

Yes, let's please talk about that instead of who Ned did or didn't knock up.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so here's the thing with Book Daario and Show Daario 1.0 -- they cast a really good looking guy to play Jorah Mormont.   He's too old for her, but Iaian Glen is kind of a bit closer to swoon worthy than Daario 1.0 -- who had that sort of bigger than life acting style (fitting for book Daario) and less acting talent all around.  So not only is it a case of "What could you possibly be thinking?"  it's a case of "Uh....I realize he's too old, but if all you're looking for is a good time guy....?  At least you'd be less likely to catch a disease, good lord."  

 

So that's part of the reason I like the recast so much and still prefer it.   I guess I will see, but already Dany just looks like such a silly young thing for being all into him.  It's still clear that Daario is bad news in the show, but a person Dany's age would more believably decide to hit that.  

 

Sorry for the eight million typos in my post above, I literally had to leave the second I hit post, which was part of the reason I didn't talk about Balon Greyjoy being dead.  It explains why he's been so entirely useless in the show, but I was also kind of distracted by the "wait, so....the Blackfish is going to die? He didn't go to the wedding?"  but Thoros sees him under siege by the Lannisters at Riverrun and losing.  

 

I guess it actually didn't particularly attract my attention much, because Balon Greyjoy has done so little in the show and not been mentioned in so long, it wasn't particularly surprising.  Presumably he's already been around to receive the bits of Theon Ramsay saw fit to send to him, indicate he didn't care, and then shuffle off the mortal coil....because that's the last we saw of him in the show.  "Don't care that my son has been whittled"  *exit stage permanently to date*

 

It does mean that all the leeches worked though, I suppose.  

 

As for when Ned would have time to knock up Ashara....I assumed that might have happened after he was married to Catelyn....I also don't know where they heck he was when he heard that Brandon and Rickard was dead and Lyanna kidnapped.  So I wondered if Martin wasn't using an echo with Rob and Jayne -- Ned turned to her in his grief, etc.  on the way to wherever, to fight whomever, after having been married off to Catelyn.  If he'd made her any promises, I can see Ned making a trip to see to tell her and apologize for breaking whatever secret arrangement they'd made before Rickard was cooked and Brandon strangled in the most hideous manner possible.  One of those "when my father returns from the capital, I will ask him...." or something.  

 

Rickard and Brandon die.  Ned marries Catelyn and sets off with Robert to war, and they stop at wherever Ashara is ....because there has to be a point where Ned was at the place Wylla was in order to have had time to be rumored to have knocked her up anyway. Edric Dayne believed Wylla to be Jon's mother, but he learned that from people there.   People know that it takes some sort of reasonable proximity to knock someone up....so if they believed that Ned had fathered a child with Wylla, stands to reason that the people in the castle believe that was possible.   

 

I don't know how the timeline would work, but presumably there was some way for them to make it work, in order for it to believe by anyone that Ned had gotten anyone pregnant.  Edric Dayne grew up believing that Wylla was Jon's mother....he got that notion from the people he grew up with, who would have had to believe it was possibly true.   Furthermore, Catelyn believed it was possible, so he was somewhere near enough to Ashara Dayne at some point in his travels to make his own wife believe it was possible. 

 

At least that introduces another character who might know the truth of who the hell is Jon's mother.   Unless Wylla has conveniently kicked it too.  

 

ETA:

 

I think quite a few people (based on some of the previous comments people had spoiler tagged) were wondering what your reaction was to the bolded part, considering he’s still alive in the Show continuity.

 

Heh, whereas my entire reaction was "Oh.  Well being dead would explain why he hasn't done anything in forever."  I think it might have made a big impression on me if the Show had him doing anything, but the dude has been offscreen years and hasn't been mentioned either.  Neither has Yara.  They just sort of evaporated as characters two years ago. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Dev F]

I don't know how the timeline would work, but presumably there was some way for them to make it work, in order for it to believe by anyone that Ned had gotten anyone pregnant.  Edric Dayne grew up believing that Wylla was Jon's mother....he got that notion from the people he grew up with, who would have had to believe it was possibly true. 

 

I assume that will ultimately be the point of the Ashara Dayne stuff -- that Ned was known to have made time with her at some point, so it was logical enough for the "Wylla is Jon's mom" conspirators to claim that he was actually making time with a servant in her household instead.

[Haleth]

I can't tell you how disappointed I was that Daario doesn't have purple hair. If we meet any other Tyroshi I guess they won't have extravagant hair colors either.

Shimpy, now that you know Balon is dead, go back and read the comments of the old crone the first time Arya meets her. There are interesting clues about what happened to him. It's p 249 in the hardcover.

I will never believe (until GRRM says so) that Ned broke his vows to Cat, despite not really knowing her and then running into his old flame. It would be so out of character for him, even though he allowed the assumption that he did persist. I think Wylla was just a servant at the Tower of Joy who fortunately could fill in as wet nurse. I also think Ashara killed herself because Ned married Cat. No baby involved.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

There's almost no way at all for me to do that, Haleth.  I'd need to know what chapter it was, by number, not name :-(   So, "Go look in chapter 12" I can do....but that page number has nothing to do with Arya and neither do any of the surrounding pages, or chapters.  None of the chapters bear names, they are just listed as numbers. 

 

 

 

I will never believe (until GRRM says so) that Ned broke his vows to Cat, despite not really knowing her and then running into his old flame.

 

Dude, he has Ned's son break an Oath and it wasn't even for love, and even put it down to being sick with grief.   They had Jeyne apparently nursing Robb, but if Ned had actually been in love with someone so his heart was also broken, and he was grief-stricken? Yeah, I think he'd break his vows to Catelyn.  He let her believe for the entirety of their marriage that he had....which is essentially the same thing as breaking them. 

 

I admit, I doubt he did, but Martin's kind of structured in an echo of the story as it is, with Ned's own son, if that's the direction he wants to take it. I admit, I like that he finally got around to make it even close to believable that Ned might have screwed around.  Random camp follower number 482?  No way.  Woman he had actually loved, who he had to break his own promise to because of family duty?  Far more feasible.

 

Again, I doubt that's the case, but at least Martin finally put in enough of a backstory to make it closer to plausible.    

Edited October 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

There's almost no way at all for me to do that, Haleth.  I'd need to know what chapter it was, by number, not name :-(   So, "Go look in chapter 12" I can do....but that page number has nothing to do with Arya and neither do any of the surrounding pages, or chapters.  None of the chapters bear names, they are just listed as numbers. 

It's this quote, "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings". But I doubt that really holds any more meaning for you yet.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings"

 

Thank you, Lady S, I appreciate that.  I actually figured that was Balon when I first read it, because Theon stood on that bridge. He remembered running across it fearlessly as a child and  being terrified as a grown man.  So I thought it was either Balon or Theon, actually. 

 

Does Balon fall to his death when he gets the news about Theon or something?  I mean, it would be hard to believe that would rattle him enough to make him fall from that bridge, because he so roundly and completely didn't care about Theon being alive, but if Yara/Asha dies and he gets news of it "Dark wings, Dark Words"  , he might bestir himself to give enough of a crap to stumble on that bridge, I suppose. 

 

ETA:  This is funny, because seriously guys, from the perspective of someone whose just reading the books now, it isn't something that struck me as being particularly "Oh wow, Balon is dead!" because....dude he's done even less in the books than he did in the series.  

 

In the series he was shitty to Theon when Theon went to the Iron Islands.  Then he was equally crappy to Yara when Ramsay sent him the world's worst package'o'package ....and that's it in the show.    In the books?  He's only done that first part.  Theon showed up.  Balon was impossible to like or care about, or admire or understand even as a human being.  Now he is dead.  

 

There's got to be some amazing ass story coming up about Balon, because he's even less of a presence in the books than he was on the Show and on the Show he long ago faded into 'Oh yeah, that guy.  From the Islands where Color (and Interest) Went to Die."  

Edited October 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

It's the "man without a face" part that I found interesting.

[stillshimpy]

It's the "man without a face" part that I found interesting.

 

Oh shit.  Ramsay kills him?!? Jojen saw Ramsay skinning the faces from the Stark boys in his "Green Dream".   

Edited October 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[jellyroll2]

No, it's not Ramsey. You'll figure it out the more you read. Think about the person hearing these visions and then the type of people she ends up hanging around. Plus it involves characters you haven't met yet. Balon being dead becomes important later. Ties into "wow, we're just diverging from the story left and right" when it comes to seasons 4 & 5.

Edited October 15, 2015 by jellyroll2

[jellyroll2]

It's so hard to discuss the timeline because I can't remember why we know certain things - whether GRRM said or because it's in the book. And if it's in the book, where is it in the book? Like I know that Jon being 8-9 months older than Dany is from GRRM. And we have some rough sense of the timeline but I just can't remember if it's spelled out clearly in the books or not.

Lyanna disappears, Brandon goes to KL to confront Rhaegar, he's arrested,  Rickard goes to get him, they're both executed, Aerys demands that Jon Arryn give him the heads of Ned & Robert who are in the Vale, he refuses and calls his banners and that's the start of the war. Ned left the Vale and returned to Winterfell to call his banners but I think that all comes up in ADWD. So Brandon is already dead well before Ned & Cat are married.

[stillshimpy]

The Faceless Men Ja'quen, et al?  If Arya kils Balon that would be....? I mean, I got that the Crone was all "YIKES!  She Who Brings Death! Stay Away from Me!  You drip pain everywhere you go."  It's the same sort of thing Melisandre says, when she looks into Arya's eyes and says what she sees there is how many eyes Arya will close.  

 

There are a zillion people I can see Arya wanting to kill and sure, she's going to particularly have it in for all things Greyjoy when she finds out who killed (as far as she's ever likely to know) Bran and Rickon. I know from season five ...and again I'm going to spoiler tag here, because there are people who haven't watched season five in the thread

Arya kills ...the guy whose name is completely escaping me...I always called him Trout, so I think it was Trant.  Ser Meryn Trant and is blinded as a punishment for doing so.  That frankly never made even an iota of sense that Arya went so batshit crazy about having to murder Trant, because for one darned thing, his name was a weird add-on in season five.  Arya just started adding him to her list out of seemingly nowhere....and whereas god knows he had it coming for a myriad of reasons....being that driven about Trant would not make sense.  If it's Balon instead?  And Arya ends up blinded because she broke her vows to the faceless god to kill Balon?  Yeah, that comes a lot closer to making sense.

 

From what I currently know, it wouldn't actually make sense for Dany to be nine months younger than Jon.  Dany was born as the rebellion ended and King's Landing had fallen.  Aerys sent her mother to Dragonstone at the very last moment, this per Jaime. ....and ye olde Tower of Joy ought to be about the same time.  Robert and Ned fight over the dead Targaryen children and are only reunited again in grief over Lyanna, right? 

 

By then, Dany has been born, King's Landing has been taken and the rebellion is almost over, right?  If Jon was born after the fall of King's Landing....there's no way that he's 8 to 9 months older than Dany, unless it took a really, really long time for Dragonstone to be taken after King's Landing...and Aerys impregnated Dany's mother on the last day of his life.

Edited October 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I know the stuff that everyone is hinting at is fan speculation dealing with Balon's death rather than a big reveal that's coming up of anything, but I still think we're jumping the gun a bit on when that speculation is appropriate to bring up, even if a lot of it rests on the previously quoted bit.

As has been mentioned, there are some players yet to be introduced.

Anyway, the bit of fan speculation that I kind of like regarding Ashara but that I don't know whether the timeline supports is that she's the one that told Ned where to find his sister and then killed herself because she couldn't bear the guilt when that ended up getting her brother killed.

The spec that I like even more just on general kookiness grounds is

that she's Septa Lemore and that Young Griff is actually her son

[Delta1212]

The Faceless Men Ja'quen, et al? If Arya kils Balon that would be....? I mean, I got that the Crone was all "YIKES! She Who Brings Death! Stay Away from Me! You drip pain everywhere you go." It's the same sort of thing Melisandre says, when she looks into Arya's eyes and says what she sees there is how many eyes Arya will close.

There are a zillion people I can see Arya wanting to kill and sure, she's going to particularly have it in for all things Greyjoy when she finds out who killed (as far as she's ever likely to know) Bran and Rickon. I know from season five ...and again I'm going to spoiler tag here, because there are people who haven't watched season five in the thread

Arya kills ...the guy whose name is completely escaping me...I always called him Trout, so I think it was Trant. Ser Meryn Trant and is blinded as a punishment for doing so. That frankly never made even an iota of sense that Arya went so batshit crazy about having to murder Trant, because for one darned thing, his name was a weird add-on in season five. Arya just started adding him to her list out of seemingly nowhere....and whereas god knows he had it coming for a myriad of reasons....being that driven about Trant would not make sense. If it's Balon instead? And Arya ends up blinded because she broke her vows to the faceless god to kill Balon? Yeah, that comes a lot closer to making sense.

From what I currently know, it wouldn't actually make sense for Dany to be nine months younger than Jon. Dany was born as the rebellion ended and King's Landing had fallen. Aerys sent her mother to Dragonstone at the very last moment, this per Jaime. ....and ye olde Tower of Joy ought to be about the same time. Robert and Ned fight over the dead Targaryen children and are only reunited again in grief over Lyanna, right?

By then, Dany has been born, King's Landing has been taken and the rebellion is almost over, right? If Jon was born after the fall of King's Landing....there's no way that he's 8 to 9 months older than Dany, unless it took a really, really long time for Dragonstone to be taken after King's Landing...and Aerys impregnated Dany's mother on the last day of his life.

He's not actually a late add-on in Season 5. He'd been on it for a few seasons already, it's just that in season 5, they trimmed her list way down except for a few critical people and randomly him, so it seemed more out of place and noticeable.

[Lady S.]

He's not actually a late add-on in Season 5. He'd been on it for a few seasons already, it's just that in season 5, they trimmed her list way down except for a few critical people and randomly him, so it seemed more out of place and noticeable.

And she had a personal reason to kill him, to avenge Syrio. All of the people on Arya's list are people she's met before or were involved in things she personally witnessed, there's a strong element of survivor's guilt involved. For example, she couldn't let Mycah's murder go not because they were especially close friends, but because he was killed due to his friendship with her.

[WindyNights]

I think people need to stop trying to imply things to shimpy. You're just going to confuse her more.

@shimpy Actually Dany was born in Dragonstone 9 months after KL went down.

[stillshimpy]

@shimpy Actually Dany was born in Dragonstone 9 months after KL went down.

 

So Aerys impregnated his wife during the last fortnight of his life?  He didn't know she was pregnant when he sent her away with Viserys?  Oh God, the absolute worst thing just occurred to me.  

 

Aerys is actually Dany's father....? I hope. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

He might have known. I'm not sure but she was definitely not far along in her pregnancy before she was sent off to Dragonstone.

I think hoping someone is the child of Aerys is like the worst thing you can wish upon a child lol

"Aerys is actually Dany's father....? I hope. "

This just in, the only Targaryen heir is actually not even a Targaryen. She's a secret Stark.

Edited October 16, 2015 by WindyNights

[Lady S.]

So Aerys impregnated his wife during the last fortnight of his life?  He didn't know she was pregnant when he sent her away with Viserys?  Oh God, the absolute worst thing just occurred to me.  

 

Aerys is actually Dany's father....? I hope. 

Was the worst thing Viserys raping his mother? He was only 8 at the time. 

[jellyroll2]

I think this is discussed by Jamie later so I won't say now. But Jamie will basically say when Rhaella got pregnant with Dany. But she was conceived around the Sack and Jon was born not long after the Sack.

[John Potts]

Daario always struck me as a total sleezeball - but they get the chicks all the time! And Dany (believes she) is sterile, so she isn't worried about getting pregnant by him, so if she fools around with him... well, she's Queen and screw around like Robert did (though the way MMD's prophecy was worded inclines me to believe she will get pregnant at some point).

 

All this talk of Jon's parentage made me think of a squicky theory: what if Jon really IS Ned's son... by Lyanna. I don't think the timings work out, but Ned would certainly have reason to keep THAT quiet. We do know Lyanna was "wilful" (I'm assuming she seduced him... for some reason, maybe because SHE believed he would be the Prince that was Promised) and her "Promise me!" was to not kill a child of incest. She might even have run off with Rhaegar BECAUSE she was pregnant with Ned's child (it would actually work out almost as well if Brandon was the father, although that makes Jon considerably older, and he's meant to be younger than Robb).

 

Please somebody assure me that this is impossible!

[Holmbo]

So Aerys impregnated his wife during the last fortnight of his life? He didn't know she was pregnant when he sent her away with Viserys? Oh God, the absolute worst thing just occurred to me.

Aerys is actually Dany's father....? I hope.

Ooo! A someone-is-secretly-NOT-a-targaryan-theory, very refreshing.

I guess she'd be on her mother's side, but still.

[Reader of Books]

What am I missing here? I thought there was always no doubt who Dany's father was?

[ambi76]

It's just some fanwanking Reader of Books. Like jellyroll2 said Jaime recalls when Dany was (very likely) fathered by Aerys later in the books.

 

Not surpised that shimpy is baffled by our "but omg Balon is dead!11!" insistence. It's just a gigantic fandom joke now shimpy that on the show: "Balon (as the last man standing) 'won' the war of the five kings. WTF?11!" Since in the books he is the second of the five to die after Renly.

Edited October 16, 2015 by ambi76

[Reader of Books]

Thanks ambi76.

 

On Balon's death - it is important because it informs Stannis's actions. He is lead to believe the leeches actually had power.

 

In the show Balon remaining alive makes the whole thing less coherent and arguably pointless. If they had taken it out, they wouldn't have had to do the whole magical teleportation of Mel to Beric's secret lair, and wouldn't have had to put up with the years of 'has Gendry stopped rowing yet?" questions.

[Haleth]

There can't be any question about Dany's Targness because... dragons.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Haleth

[Avaleigh]

Thanks ambi76.

 

On Balon's death - it is important because it informs Stannis's actions. He is lead to believe the leeches actually had power.

 

In the show Balon remaining alive makes the whole thing less coherent and arguably pointless. If they had taken it out, they wouldn't have had to do the whole magical teleportation of Mel to Beric's secret lair, and wouldn't have had to put up with the years of 'has Gendry stopped rowing yet?" questions.

Balon's death not happening on the show yet irritates me because of the whole Shireen thing. Here's proof that Mel's magic doesn't even totally work but it's never addressed and Stannis just sort of ignores this for whatever reason. If nothing else, Davos should have brought up the fact that Balon is still alive.  

[Delta1212]

There can't be any question about Dany's Targness because... dragons.

Not that I don't think Aerys is her father, because he obviously is, but her mother is also a Targaryen. Dany would have Targ blood no matter who her dad was.

[Triskan]

I think people need to stop trying to imply things to shimpy. You're just going to confuse her more.

 

Yeah, as much as I'd want to discuss Balon's death, we should wait for shimpy to get that one information she'll receive very (very !) soon... 

 

Euron is first mentioned in the Catelyn chapter that is two chapters ahead of her, after  ! :)

Edited October 16, 2015 by Triskan

[jellyroll2]

Ooo! A someone-is-secretly-NOT-a-targaryan-theory, very refreshing.

I guess she'd be on her mother's side, but still.

Funnily, I'm seeing stirrings about something like this. No one truly believing she's not a Targ but a growing crackpot that something is up because of the whole "lemon tree at the house with the red door" memory she keeps having. We know from Arya's time in Braavos there are no lemon trees there yet Dany's memories are of a lemon tree in that house she lived in. So something just seems off there. Most likely pointing to her memories not being quite reliable.

[WindyNights]

@jelly A fan asked GRRM about this once and I think he said "how very astute of you" in response and maybe to keep reading

I think one theory is

that Dany is Jon's twin sister and was split from him and raised in Dorne at one point in time under maybe a Dayne

Edited October 16, 2015 by WindyNights

[glowbug]

@jelly A fan asked GRRM about this once and I think he said "how very astute of you" in response and maybe to keep reading

I think one theory is

that Dany is Jon's twin sister and was split from him and raised in Dorne at one point in time under maybe a Dayne

 

I really hope not. We don't need another character whose parentage is a lie. Jon is enough, and it's likely that Aegon is not really the son of Rhaegar and Elia. There's also the potential for Tyrion to be Joanna's son with Aerys. I'd rather the lemon tree memory mean something else.

[WindyNights]

I prefer to think that

Tyrion had a Targaryen twin that he killed and absorbed in the womb hence the dream of him with two heads, his two diffrent colored eyes, his black and blonde hair and his obsession with dragons along with him having a shadow as tall as a king

And yes

twins can have two different fathers although it rarely happens but this process happened with Heracles

[Alayne Stone]

I never took any Ashara mentions as legitimately suggesting that she might be Jon's mother. The latest mention is just there to remind us that the adults of ASOIAF had their own lives and love interests pre-rebellion. Catelyn and Brandon Stark. Ned's crush on Ashara Dayne. Etc. Ashara's suicide is still kind of a mystery, right? It could have been that Ned knocked her up, it could have just been the grief of Ned returning her brother's sword home after Arthur was killed at the Tower of Joy.

 

There's no reason for Shimpy to speculate at this time that it was actually Brandon Stark who dishonored Ashara, right? I can't remember exactly how this comes to be, but doesn't Lady Barbery reveal that Brandon took Ashara's maidenhead at the Tourney of Harenhaal during ADwD? I'm always hesitant to touch on some of these little details because they are so small and I simply can't remember which books they occurred in.

 

As far as Balon goes, Shimpy, I think the only thing you are supposed to take from it at this point is that Balon is about to die sometime in the future. That a faceless man might have anything to do with it is not even something you would know without having hindsight from your viewing of the show. The reason it is such a big deal to book readers is the fact that Balon has, indeed, lived as long as he has on the show ... unintentionally and kind of hilariously, winning the "war of the 5 kings" due to pure negligence on the show's part. ;)

 

And as far as Rhaegar goes, I think this is just the part in the books where you begin to get conflicting accounts of the long dead prince. Robert had us believe he was a violent rapist in book one. Jorah is the first person to conflict this with his whole "Rhaegar fought bravely, Rhaegar fought valiantly, and Rhaegar died" quote ... and then "Arstan" with his account of Rhaegar being melancholy and playing the lute. At this point as a book reader you should just be starting to reminded that a.) history is told from the point of the victor and b.) past events/descriptions of people are not always as they appear and frankly, we just don't have a full picture of it all just yet. We already saw this with Jaime and the sack of King's Landing (killing the King actually being his most heroic act that no one even knew about) ... and we're starting to get that about Rhaegar, and even Ashara Dayne and who even knows with everyone else concerned.

 

There's a reason book fans have always pushed for a show revolving exclusively around "Robert's Rebellion." A lot of interesting things went down then. The adults in this series had different ideas for how their lives were supposed to end up. It's kind of like how fans of Harry Potter have always been interested in the Marauders as well. :)

 

It's just one of many interesting layers that add to the world building of this series that is kind of lost in the show.

 

Anyway, it's the weekend so I know your reading slows down because you focus on house work. My boyfriend and I just got a house recently so that's what my weekends consist of as well, but I'm still encouraging you to keep reading as everyone else has. I think the last 1/3 of ACoK is probably my favorite chunk out of the entire series myself.

[WindyNights]

1) Rhaegar didn't play the lute. He played the harp.

2) It's never said

that Brandon knocked up Ashara. Barristan merely wishes she had turned to him and not Stark which could mean Brandon or Ned. Also Lady Dustin said that Brandon never wanted to mary Cat and that he wanted to be with herself( Lady Dustin) Also Brandon took Barbrey's maidenhead

Edited October 17, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Anyway, I will wait and see why Balon dying is such a big deal, but guys, please stop telling me what is going to happen.  When it differs from the show -- and clearly this is an area where it does -- then all it does is spoil me to things I don't know from the show.  I'd really appreciate it if you could keep that in mind, and I do know it is a difficult line to straddle.  Some things I will know from the show and I run around referencing them, but if something differs from the show then those are the reasons I'm actually reading the books, to find out where the differences lie, you know? 

 

 

 

Was the worst thing Viserys raping his mother? He was only 8 at the time.

 

Actually, no thank goodness.  I was thinking, "Oh ew, please tell me Rhaegar was nowhere around the joint, because it's hard to imagine Aerys taking time out from his pants-pooping-levels-of-crazy to beget another child in the waning days of the war." 

 

So, I actually stopped reading when I realized what chapter I have to be in:  Catelyn on the way to the wedding can only mean really dreadful things to come, so I should record some thoughts on the whopper of a Jaime character:  Jaime Lannister has his Jacob Marley, meets Scrooge and the ghosts of Oaths Broken Past, Present and Not Made But About to Be Honored dream. 

 

The reason I'm pausing before going on is that it's clear that there's going to be a lot of distracting stuff about to go down and all that stuff with Jaime is clearly so key to how he became a character people liked.  He has an epiphany, the last fires of his soul are basically going out and he has to confront the thing he's hidden from even in his own mind all this time:  The murder of the Targaryen children is also something for which he is arguably as responsible as his father.  

 

I like that having had the one thing he defined himself by , his ability to fight and make life solely about that very literal kind of battle, everything tactile, everything immediate rather than introspective.   As long as he was a man of action, he was able to escape the need for thought and examining those actions, their repercussions. 

 

It's pretty much impossible to judge Jaime's killing Aery's as the wrong thing if they didn't live in a world where Oaths, Laws, Structure are the only things keeping them from becoming the Mummers of Anarchy as a world.  There has to be structure or else the worst people will rise to the top, which is what's happening now.  Bolton is a horror and was kept in check by having someone like Ned around, who was all about the rules.  Even then,  clearly Bolton still got away with a lot on his own lands, but for the most part, the countryside was safe from Bolton rolling forth and peeling everyone like a bunch of oranges. 

 

That in the absence of a Lawful Good structure, another type of structure will form and it is worse for everyone. 

 

So Jaime being confronted by the ghosts of the Kingsguard, in that very Dickensian manner and going back for Brienne to guard her the only way he can, as a human shield.  It's the most honorable thing the guy has ever done.   I do get that Jaime had that terribly disillusioning thing happen:  realizing that Aerys chose him for the Kingsguard to spite Tywin.   I had always believed that the Kingsguard had to volunteer (which was not a bad supposition, because....dude....not a good thing to try and force someone into "Guard my life with your own....never marry, don't have sex.  I command it" is a spectacularly bad way to get bodyguards worth a damn). 

 

It was interesting to finally meet the Jaime readers cared about.  They really never have successfully brought that across on the Show. He's going to be more interesting from this point forward.  Good on Brienne for biting off Hoat's ear -- and I am now fully convinced that RDM has read this series, by the way -- although I did have to pretend that I would buy that would end with anything other than truly terrible things happening to Brienne, from many, many people, rather than her being used as bear bait, while still in possession of all hands and feet. 

 

So onward to the point I stopped.  Jeyne remains at Riverrun?  Thoros dreamt that Riverrun was under attack by the Lannisters and having so few Westerling's with them as they head towards the Red Wedding makes me wonder how much they actually knew afresh.   It actually weirded me out that Jeyne rode out to try and join Robb for a third time....that's just....I guess it wouldn't strike me as being so very odd if it wasn't for the fact that I know what's awaiting poor Robb and poor Catelyn.   If there were Robb fans in fandom, I get why they were just so appalled by Talisa though.  The Robb Stark of the books understood that he couldn't take the woman he had married instead of the Frey he'd agreed to marry, to The Twins.  He's a teenager, but he had that much common sense, whereas Robb Stark in the show dies moments after he practically starts making out with Talisa. 

 

I know Catelyn really just broke the world in Westeros in so many ways, but I can't help feeling a lot of compassion for her.  She's so aware of it.  She knows the war is lost, she knows that Robb won't "bend the knee" and ask for peace (and you know, Tywin would just have him killed anyway....pretty much as soon as that war started and the Lannisters were in power....Robb Stark was a goner unless he could win that war and we already know that Tywin would just order all of Robb's relatives murdered too).  

 

Jeez, Catelyn's recollection of marrying Ned is just the saddest thing ever.  She remembered being disappointed.  She had never met him before the day they married and thought he'd just be a younger version of Brandon (who apparently was sort of a volatile guy) and she keeps noting -- even after all these years -- that she was struck by how somber he was.  

 

Even if Ned didn't know the horrible specifics of how his poor father and brother died (and I bet he did know) ....half his family has just been murdered, another member is captive and dishonored (which was a big damned deal for a family) ....and he's got to try and make an heir tout de suite because the only other Stark hanging around the Kingdom is his brother, who is pledged to that horrid Wall (such a bad plan....let teens take lifelong Oaths of celibacy as a matter of honor....what could go wrong there? Oy)....to try and carry on the Stark name, before heading off to risk death.   If he wasn't somber, he'd be Joffrey.   Add to that the gleeful, boundless joy of knowing that your intended has looked upon you with disappointment because you're not your dead brother and...

 

Yeah.  I think Lyanna had a kid in that tower, but the poor thing might have died ....and what the whole "Promise me...." Ned was about was that he wouldn't ever tell anyone that she went with Rhaegar willingly.   For a long time, it's bugged me that "Well Jesus, he remembers this over and over.....it's got to be something huge...."  and if Lyanna Stark died knowing that she'd gotten her father cooked alive and her brother died because he could not stop trying to spare his father.  

 

Yeah, that's the promise me, swear you'll never tell a soul kind of thing.   It also might materially change how you felt about any kid you'd just had, by the way.   No starry eyed love survives knowing that you got your father cooked the hell alive.   

 

I never thought I would say this, but if that's the deal?  Poor Lyanna.  Most of us have pretty tragic taste in partners when we're still developing people, but it usually just ends in breakup drama (driving to the Portland airport I witnessed a teen drama worthy of the stage...enacted outside the gates of a cemetery, no less....arms being flung all over the place as these two kids were clearly breaking up with enough of a scene to wake the dead and make sitting at a red light REALLY awkward).  Usually that's what having bad taste in love leads to as a teenager though and poor freaking Lyanna if she wasn't kidnapped, because...man, alive....you'd just die so that you wouldn't have to live with the guilt of it all). 

 

Also, before I head back to this flipping wedding, which will be so cheerful, I'm just sure (and we're having friends over for dinner tonight, so ....whee, just the thing to put me in the hostess mood) ....I just wanted to note one thing:  I bloody well hope that Ned did pass by Ashara Dayne's place on his way to doing every form of duty imaginable, thinking he was off to die anyway, allowed himself to ditch honor and have a whole bunch of sex for at least a twelve hour period.  Not duty sex either.  The "everyone in the keep feign deafness while we get our freak on, we who are about to die (as far as we know)  will not go gently into that good night....keep at it until it's light."  

 

I felt so sorry for Catelyn reading that, about her dour "that was the night we made Robb" .....oh ....joy.  And remembers that Ned seemed to be doing it for duty (well, good lord, he had a lot on his mind) ....she remembers thinking she'd just be marrying Brandon 2.0 and she still will presumably go to her grave never thinking how all that shit must have felt to Second Choice Ned.  

 

Poor Catelyn.  All that introspection and so little empathy for Ned's wandering bones.  A detail that was truly sad.  No one even knows where his body ended up.   

 

Maybe where Jaime was sleeping the night he dreamed of Brienne and all forms of honor calling out loud enough for him to hear.  

 

Poor Jaime.  He was sixteen at the time.  What an impossible choice to make and his resentment of the term Kingslayer is because he does get that he saved a city's worth of people, and little kids got their brains bashed in under his watch. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Reader of Books]

  If there were Robb fans in fandom, I get why they were just so appalled by Talisa though.  The Robb Stark of the books understood that he couldn't take the woman he had married instead of the Frey he'd agreed to marry, to The Twins.  He's a teenager, but he had that much common sense, whereas Robb Stark in the show dies moments after he practically starts making out with Talisa. 

 

Rest assured that millions of words have been written about that....