Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[jellyroll2]

I'm interested in Shimpy's thoughts on Tywin/Pycelle endorsing Slynt for Lord Commander as well. I'm so looking forward to a discussion about the NW and politics once we get to ADWD.

[Avaleigh]

This is the point when I started to like Jaime as a human being. In his first POV chapter I was glad that he got a POV because I had found him intriguing in the dungeon with Cat but I didn't exactly think, "oh Jaime, what a card, secretly filled with the milk of human kindness". I thought him an interesting asshole and I already liked him better as a character than I ever liked Ned or Robb. But after the hand gets chopped off Jaime's mask of snark and swagger is disabled and we start seeing what's inside the king slayer and the sister fucker. This is a man who is at the low point of his life, he lost his precious sword hand, he is humiliated, feverish and in pain. A lot of people would not be at their best under those circumstances. Or spare concern for anybody else. But Jaime tries to help his fellow captive, saving her from rape and death with his quick thinking. This woman who he was at odds with before they were captured, who was his enemy,  this woman who is not a family member, not of his house and he is a man who clearly only has cared for his own, for people named Lannister before this. So Jaime expanding his circle of caring to include Brienne of Tarth is a big deal. And I realized reading this that Martin was giving me a classic heel turn - and I love a well written heel turn.

 

About Vargo Hoat - I think he is a much better, more colorful villain that what we are given on the show. He is an example of what I like to call pathetic evil. I also like the irony of this pathetic creature taking the sword hand of Jaime Lannister.  And I like that Vargo Hoat shows us Jaime's humanity 

even with his brutal end - Jaime being horrified about the way Tywan has his mutilator Vargo Hoat killed.

A great, loud YES to all of this.

I was already intrigued by Jaime from the Catelyn chapter and because Tyrion clearly loves him but I didn't totally get it until we begin to see him with Brienne.

Of all of the characters it's Jaime I want to see redeem himself the most. I think the levels of grey here are fascinating and it's incredible to me that I feel inclined to defend him over the incest and even Bran to a point. (Obviously he shouldn't have done it and obviously he was 100% wrong but I get that he saw himself saving five lives with that move.)

One of many things that I find fascinating about Jaime is his sexual loyalty. Only Ned is as loyal as he is to the woman he loves. In this story I can't help but feel like that's huge. Even Davos and Stannis have fucked around.

Garlan Tyrell

is a minor character who seems like a good guy in all respects. Not many others I can think of.

[nksarmi]

Well, in his short life/marriage, I think Robb was loyal and likely would have been like his father.  And while Jon broke his oath to the NW with Ygritte, I do believe he would never be disloyal to a woman if he had married.  Of course, both of those men were heavily influenced by Ned....

 

ETA: I do wonder if Tyrion would be loyal if he thought his wife loved him or if his low self-esteem would never allow him to believe a woman capable of truly loving him and he would seek the company of whores still.  It really is a shame that Tyrion's mother died in child birth.  If he could have had just a few years of her love, I think he would have been an amazing man.  I think being a dwarf would have still caused issues with him and Tywin and he still would have had a level of empathy that most highborns lack.  But at least knowing that his mother loved him and not carrying the burden of his birth having caused her death might have eliminated some of the less desirable traits he has brewing underneath.  He'd be less complex, but I almost think he'd be more interesting (as much as I like Tyrion, I really don't find self-pity interesting even though I understand it in him).

Edited October 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[Avaleigh]

Well, in his short life/marriage, I think Robb was loyal and likely would have been like his father. And while Jon broke his oath to the NW with Ygritte, I do believe he would never be disloyal to a woman if he had married. Of course, both of those men were heavily influenced by Ned....

ETA: I do wonder if Tyrion would be loyal if he thought his wife loved him or if his low self-esteem would never allow him to believe a woman capable of truly loving him and he would seek the company of whores still. It really is a shame that Tyrion's mother died in child birth. If he could have had just a few years of her love, I think he would have been an amazing man. I think being a dwarf would have still caused issues with him and Tywin and he still would have had a level of empathy that most highborns lack. But at least knowing that his mother loved him and not carrying the burden of his birth having caused her death might have eliminated some of the less desirable traits he has brewing underneath. He'd be less complex, but I almost think he'd be more interesting (as much as I like Tyrion, I really don't find self-pity interesting even though I understand it in him).

I agree that Tyrion would have been a very different man if Joanna had lived. I think her death had a huge impact on the four main people she left behind. Tywin and Cersei both seem like they never really got over it. Jaime never blamed Tyrion but Cersei seems to have followed Tywin's attitude. I don't think she would have hated Tyrion so much had it not been for Tywin's hateful attitude from day one.

That and the prophecy.

[stillshimpy]

So I think I have told all of you what my brother-in-law told me about Tyrion, years ago at this point.  I told him about the whole Unsullied thing and he was telling me he really hoped I'd read the books.  By the way, this was before the Red Wedding and to this day, I'm so impressed that he didn't give even the tiniest hint of that.  My BIL is a HUGE man, he's 6'6" but exceptionally mild-tempered.  So he just sort of looked off into the distance for a second and said, "It's really a much better story in the books.  For instance, when they marry Sansa off to Tyrion, his nose is missing, it really is like they've married her to a monster from her perspective" and that's when I started freaking out about the "No!!! I'm seriously not kidding, don't tell me anything from them!"  

 

And you know, he never did again until this fall when we were all whale watching together.   But if you ever really want to get the chills, try to imagine my giant of a brother-in-law (my husband is between 6'3 and 6'4" ....tall dudes in that family) , who is almost always stoned beyond the telling it, looking like he had just had a very disquieting thought before saying, "Man, I really hope you read the books someday." again.   

 

Scared the bejesus out of me.  

 

But I think his point about how the marriage must seem to Sansa is a fair one.  Tyrion isn't just a dwarf at that point, he's fairly horribly scarred.  It would take almost anyone a bit to get past just his facial disfigurement to get to know, like and eventually love that person.   So it's hard to say if Sansa could have ever gotten there, because not everyone is capable of seeing past what amounts to deformity (I'm not talking about him being a dwarf, I mean, I've personally only ever dated people with the usual allotment of facial features and whereas I'd like to think that I am evolved enough to  be able to see past that....and I truly think that I am....I fully admit, it would take me a bit ) .   Add to that that Sansa has every reason in the world to simply associate him with the family that has held her prisoner and murdered her father, whose nephew had her beaten.....and Sansa still does actually remember that as she considers Tyrion's offer right before they are married ....but the Red Wedding sealed the "Nope, they'd have never been a pair" deal. 

 

 

 

Looking at the awoiaf chapter summary, the other thing going on in that Tyrion chapter was them finding out Lord Mormont is MIA and presumed dead. Any thought on Tywin/Pycelle's endorsement of Janos Slynt as his successor?

 

This bothered me soooooooo much.  Tywin isn't meant to be tactically impaired in such a manner.  Regardless of whether or not he believes that the dead will walk, blah blah,  blah blah he has to understand there are other reasons that the Wall needs to actually be protected.  Not just Mance Rayder, but there are ports there also and Stannis could (and in the Series at least, eventually does) sail THERE when he has marshaled more forces. 

 

So it bothered the hell out of me in that it was stupid, short-sighted and for the love of all things EVERYTHING ....Balon Grejoy also poses the biggest threat from the seas, Robb Stark is still around even if he's got horrible plans brewing for him.   So it actually didn't make sense to me that Tywin was that tunnel-visioned.  Not that I expected him to be all "Whatever they need.  Send them as many men as we can find.  Plenty of provisions too.  Arm them to the teeth!"  ....but that he'd put someone known to be pretty much incompetent in charge bothered me on the "Okay, that was out-of-character, or it should be for the guy with the cold-blooded, tactical mind that can help plan Robb Stark's bloody demise."  

 

As for the changes to Jaime in the series vs. the book.  I really couldn't agree more.  It's so poorly handled that when Jaime jumps into the pit to save Brienne from the bear....it came out of fucking nowhere.  Seriously, it wasn't an earned moment, whereas if the same deal goes down in the books, after Bolton learns there won't be any ransom (or whatever) ....it will absolutely feel like, "Yes, this character would do that.  He does bizarre things, but he has his own code of honor to which he adheres, he's not afraid of pain or pretty much anything....and whereas he thinks that Brienne is ugly as sin, he admires her in all the other ways that matter at all to Jaime....that she is more like him in terms of courage, than his overly-beloved twin."  

 

Hey, on that note, because I am on record as being just incredibly grossed out by his entire relationship with Cersei...and I remain so....Martin -- every now and then -- manages to nail something with exactly the right emotional note, that when removed from the grotesque context of their sexual relationship, manages to make it emotionally poignant and understandable as the defining emotional animating force in Jaime's life:  when he thinks that they will leave the world as they came into it: together.   

That weirdly made it make sense to me:  "Oh jebus, he actually truly believes that she is his soulmate because they have always been together, since the inception of their souls.  Icky....but makes perfect sense for a person who also has the whole 'dyslexia, I see things, but my brain mixes them up in ways that others don't'.   

 

I've finished Sam's chapter and you know, I'm just so pissed at the Show right at this moment.  They went for the gratuitous, Camp Craster's Endless Incest and Inbreeding: Now with more Rape than Ever!  thing for the rebellion that kills Mormont.  They played up the "Mormont dies, because the remaining Night's Watch men want to rape the hell out of Craster's wives and live it up like King's and act like Lord of the Flies: Arctic Division."  

 

Instead they are half crazed with starvation, have no reason whatsoever to believe that they are going to live to get back to the damned Wall anyway.  Poor Sam's own insecurities really seemed to make him take that new nickname as negatively as he could.  I get that most of the nicknames are meant to be ironic, but it is SUCH a step up from Piggy (Lord of the Flies came easily as a comparison for a bunch of reasons, eh?) that I couldn't quite view it as negatively as poor Sam. 

 

Also, it rocked hardcore that the second Craster is dead, his ....wives....take charge of their own situation, save Gilly, prod Sam to get moving and take her baby with them ....and I happily imagined how much they were then going to get to kill the remaining men of the Night's watch.   (more on that in a second) ....and openly referred to the damned White Walkers as Craster's sons.  

 

And I got why my BIL Kevin had the unnerved look on his face in a way I never had before.  

 

* There's a movie (and book, although I have not read the book) called How I Live Now that really is one of the better "we're obsessed with dystopian teen fiction" stories.  In it, at one point, the main character is hiding in the woods from what amounts to a gang of rapists, who have taken all the women they can find captive and assaulting them.   One breaks free as she's being dragged off to be gang-raped, god help her, and encounters the main character....crouched in the dark woods, but with no way to actually save this poor girl from her terrible fate....the main character looks at her pleadingly, the poor young woman who is about to horribly assaulted for the god-knows-how-many-times.  

It was one of the scariest moments in any film that I have ever seen, because for just a second it looks like the poor girl who has broken briefly free will give away the hidden girl's position, just to try and save herself from that night's torture fest.  Instead, she looks at her desperately, understands that this hidden fifteen-year-old girl can't save her....but that she can save the hidden girl....and that's what she does.   She gets up and starts running in a different direction from where she's found the hidden girl, to save her from the same fate.  

 

It's this beautiful and humanizing moment, for as horrible as it is.   That's how that moment when Craster's wives immediately rise up and take care of one another, and even Sam, the second their biggest tormenter has been removed from the equation.  Some of them will almost certainly face horrific treatment, others might die, but they are willing to face that to save Gilly and her baby.  

Edited October 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I agree that Tyrion would have been a very different man if Joanna had lived. I think her death had a huge impact on the four main people she left behind. Tywin and Cersei both seem like they never really got over it. Jaime never blamed Tyrion but Cersei seems to have followed Tywin's attitude. I don't think she would have hated Tyrion so much had it not been for Tywin's hateful attitude from day one.

That and the prophecy.

Yes but it does make you wonder if she would have interpreted the prophecy differently if she hadn't been predisposed to hate Tyrion. If her mother had taught her to love and care for her younger brother, would she have wondered about Jamie? Or would she consider the prophesy referring to a second son the way so many here do?

[nksarmi]

shimpy - I think we need to keep a running total of how many times you type "I'm just so pissed at the show right now." :)

[Dev F]

About Vargo Hoat - I think he is a much better, more colorful villain that what we are given on the show. He is an example of what I like to call pathetic evil. I also like the irony of this pathetic creature taking the sword hand of Jaime Lannister.

 

Interestingly, I believe that when the casting call went out for the character of Locke, he was Vargo Hoat, the same way that Oona Chaplin was originally cast as Jeyne. I assume that, as with Jeyne/Talisa, they were planning to hew closer to the original character but ultimately realized that their adaptation choices didn't support it.

 

And while I take issue with the decisions that turned Jeyne into Talisa (e.g., reimagining her as a battlefield nurse in an unnecessary attempt to justify a hurt/comfort storyline that was eventually deleted), I think they made the right choice with Hoat/Locke. Without the rest of the Brave Companions and their Clash of Kings storyline, Vargo would be a pretty inexplicable character.

 

After all, the whole reason that the Companions are written as foreign mercenaries is to justify their actions in Clash of Kings. Because they have no loyalty to any particular side in Westeros's war, it makes sense for Hoat to betray the Lannisters to House Bolton simply because of a personal grievance. But with that storyline excised, the character doesn't actually betray anyone before or during his role in Jaime's capture. Indeed, his role in those events now depends on him being a particularly trusted retainer of House Bolton. So it would be weird and random for him to be not a spooky Northman in the Bolton vein but a flamboyant foreigner. This slobbering Essosi weirdo we've never met before is the guy Roose trusts with recovering Jaime Lannister?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Dev F

[Triskan]

Regarding the Mutiny at Craster's Keep, there is a detail I'm glad the show skipped... and that is definitly not a shared opinion. In the books, before dying Mormont has time to tell Sam his wishes for Jorah to take the black.

 

I have no idea if that will ever be relevant, but it always seemed to me that it was unrealistic for Sam to go listen to these last words in the middle of the chaos, and I think it's a good thing the show went more direct and brutal.

 

I remember one of my first reaction, both in book and show, after that event was : "Oh, so no more Dolorous Edd for I dont know how many chapters / episodes !" ^^

[stillshimpy]

I think they made the right choice with Hoat/Locke. Without the rest of the Brave Companions and their Clash of Kings storyline, Vargo would be a pretty inexplicable character.

 

In general I agree that the villains of the show are just poorly rendered from the source material.  They are almost cartoonish in their over-the-top reveling in their own freaking evil.  Their characterizations pretty much amount to "Enter stage right, being over-the-top 'his own men would kill that fucker dead within a fortnight' levels of evil, linger at center stage really chewing it while mwahahaha'ing to drive home the point, then exit stage left, inexplicably alive and being just stupid levels of evil."  In the books the villains are just more intriguing. 

 

For instance, Bolton started out as a vaguely interesting character, but they achieved little if any depth with him before having him descend into "Yeah, here's the problem with that.....you really only get to be Caligula levels of evil (whose name was actually Gaius and whose famed Incredible Levels of Evil are almost certainly largely fiction) for so long before the Praetorian Guard kills your ass dead" characterization.  

 

The Show did a reasonably good job with Tywin, I thought.  But for the most part?  Oh my God, the villains are not just disgusting, they are boring, because there is nothing else to them.  "Wow, what a rich characterization.  Ew.  And Snore. Ew-snore.  Ew-snore.  Please die before you either make me throw up or bore into wanting to throw up anyway." 

 

And here's the thing for me:  Vargo Hoat on the page is that almost comic rendering of evil.  "Uh....okay, first of all, what the fuck is supposed to be wrong with him that he lisps like a character rejected from a Python Skit for going too broad?"  The books have him practically mustache twirl, while lisping for no explicable reason, other than I think Martin thought the contrast would be amusing....this insanely evil guy, who is a mercenary and so blood thirsty that he's managed to escape death by his own legion.....for no real reason that I can see....the problem with cartoon levels of evil is that EVERYONE sleeps some time or other" and then there's the whole "Rides a Zorse" and it is sort of broadly implied is a person of color and.....

 

Yeah, not sad that they ditched the guy whose name was probably actually Darko Goat for all we know, because what the fuck is with that lisping and slobbering? 

Edited October 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Hehehe, looking forward to your meeting with book!

Daario

... :D

Edited October 7, 2015 by Triskan

[Delta1212]

Hehehe, looking forward to your meeting with book!

Daario

... :D

My mental image of that character in the book is literally a cartoon. Like when I imagine scenes while reading, it is a 2D animated character interacting with everyone. It's not on purpose, I just can't help it.

[Mya Stone]

I'm mobile so I can't hide things but stop talking about things that take place in later books. I know you guys know what I'm talking about.

[Delta1212]

Just FYI, you can actually hide things on mobile by just typing out the spoiler tags yourself.

It's (spoiler)(/spoiler) but in square brackets.

[Mya Stone]

Just FYI, you can actually hide things on mobile by just typing out the spoiler tags yourself.

It's (spoiler)(/spoiler) but in square brackets.

Oh, I know, but I was in clinical and was reading on a break. ;) It was a time thing.

[jellyroll2]

Hehehe, looking forward to your meeting with book!

Daario

... :D

LOL OMG that will be epic.

 

The same reason a lot of people were happy about the Daario recast is why I didn't like the recast at all. So many were like "ugh the first one was so skeevy and shady and gross. Dany would have never fallen for someone like that" is exactly why they should have kept him. Because that's the reaction we all have to book!Daario. It's supposed to be a 'WTF Dany' pairing. But they turned him into just another Westerosi type fighter. Blah.

[nksarmi]

Mya - sorry - I forgot that wasn't part of show canon!

 

jellyroll2 - I completely agree!

Edited October 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[magdalene]

I think of Vargo Hoat as this over the top court jester type, but instead of making you groan and roll your eyes over his bad jokes he is a greedy and blood thirsty man who gets his kicks from chopping your hand off. He did scare me in the books, in the way clowns and mimes and puppets scare me in horror movies.

[Haleth]

Heheh. I was just reading that chapter today.

[chandraReborn]

Yeah, Hoat may not be the most realistic villain, but he's certainly scary. Reminds me a little of a Batman villain. Locke was less theatrical about his villainy, but I didn't find him terribly realistic. At least Hoat is seen to have a thing for chopping off limbs--he's deranged, and that's why he does it. Locke's motives for The Chop seemed to be out of a twisted version of an Occupy Wall Street protest. But Locke is a yeoman--as we see in his S4 meetings with the Boltons, he's trusted by his lord and good friends with the lord's bastard son, who has status and authority and a good chance of receiving lands, property, and a potential knighthood for his kids, if not himself. So Locke is well on his way to joining the Westerosi 1% and securing a good future for himself/family. What does he have to gain from maiming Jaime? After all, if the war goes badly and the North loses, Tywin will probably call for his head, and Roose Bolton will have to deliver. Locke has a valuable highborn prisoner--he'd gain status in Roose's eyes for delivering Jaime, perhaps even enough to earn property of his own. Cutting off Jaime's hand means risking Jaime's life--he could easily die of infection, robbing Locke of any reward he'd get for delivering him. And if Locke is deranged enough to want to cut off Jaime's hand with impunity, why not just kill him afterwards? 

 

So yeah, Vargo is crazy and weird and foreign, but I think he has to be, if we're to find an outlaw to de-hand Jaime. Someone integrated in the economic system of Westeros would never maim Tywin Lannister's son and leave him alive afterwards. 

[magdalene]

 

The no progress I'm less weirded out about. As I understand it, most civilazations throughout history have thought very little of progress. Most assumed things would go on about the same it always had or that it was f getting worse. Possibly, if people were doing very well, it would go back to the earlier golden age.

This and stillshimpys link about the burning of the library of Alexandria made me think of a book I recently read, The Beacon at Alexandria by Gillian Bradshaw.  It's about a woman doctor during the twilight years of the Roman Empire. This doctor can do procedures like perform c-sections her patients live through.  It made me wistful to think about the science and medicinal knowledge the Greeks and the Romans had, all lost after the Roman Empire petered out and Europe sunk into a very long Dark Age.

[Lady S.]

This bothered me soooooooo much.  Tywin isn't meant to be tactically impaired in such a manner.  Regardless of whether or not he believes that the dead will walk, blah blah,  blah blah he has to understand there are other reasons that the Wall needs to actually be protected.  Not just Mance Rayder, but there are ports there also and Stannis could (and in the Series at least, eventually does) sail THERE when he has marshaled more forces.

But would Stannis have ever gone if he hadn't been made to believe that the dead were rising in the North? The Night's Watch has been ignored for so many years that I don't find it weird that Tywin wouldn't expect anyone else in power to care about it either. To most people it's basically just a penal colony on the edge of civilization, not a strategic military outpost. And I don't think Tywin knows Slynt is incompetent, his only problem with the man was that he was too lowborn to be Lord of Harrenhal.

[John Potts]

I'm not so sure the show did do a bad interpretation of Tywin in terms of the Wall. OK, if he thought the dead were rising, then allowing the Nights Watch to fall into irrelevance is a mistake, but clearly he (along with 99% of Wetseros) thinks that's all just a myth. As he puts it (when responding to Balon's overtures) "Why give him help to do what he's doing anyway?" ie. provide another threat to Robb's forces. Yes, ultimately he'll need to deal with a Wilding Invasion but Stannis and Robb are the more immediate threats. Letting Robb, the Wildings and the Greyjoys fight each other weakens all of them and makes them ultimately easier to deal with. (Of course, in the long run, allowing a White Walker invasion would be pretty disastrous).

 

And IRL, modern historians reckon that the Dark Ages weren't nearly as regressive as previously thought: it was mainly the fact that the Chronicles we have were written by monks and what was "dark" about them was that they caused the retreat of Christianity - the Vikings were quite progressive in other ways (that's how they made it to America... probably).

[stillshimpy]

Wow. So, as luck would have it, today is the day my internet modem decided to join the choir invisible. That means I am on my phone and all the limitations that implies.

It also inspires me to apologize to anyone who has to exclusively read this thread on their phones. My apologies for making you scroll like it's a compulsive disorder. Anyway, I have read Arya's most recent chapter....which must have been fucking mind-blowing for anyone who didn't realize Beric would pop back up.

Keep that list going....because I am now so pissed at the show over the portrayal of Brotherhood.

I read the Catelyn chapter and felt like crying by the end of it already.

Then I got to the Davos chapter that almost turned even me into a Stannis fan (he is bewitched, isn't he? How the hell can he not know Mel has been using him to kill Cortnay and Renly?)....and then the end of the chapter is chilling knowing what will happen to Robb.....but I understood why Stanbis has fans now...he wouldn't let Mel kill Edric (yet, I suspect)

[Triskan]

Aaaah, that duel chapter ! 

 

Even though the Beric / Sandor duel was pretty intense in the show, I was left a bit disapointed. The way GRRM wrote that scene is really breath-taking. Very visual, and claustrophobic (all with the intense heat, the sweat, the dancing light of the flames in that immense cave...)

But yeah, the book version of it is bigger than nature and would have cost a hell lot to render in the show (and would have felt a bit too much mayhaps).

 

If I recall correctly, the Blackfish was much more "gentle" to Edmure in the books after his fail attempts at the funeral. The (failed, imo) combinaison of the Blackfish and the Greatjon in the show didnt work for me and I dont like the show! Blackfish as much as I wished I could.

 

I know I often say that, but you have an amazing chapter ahead ! (that Jaime !!!) :)

Edited October 8, 2015 by Triskan

[WindyNights]

"I am no fit man to be a King's Hand."

 

"There is no man fitter." Stannis sheathed Lightbringer, gave Davos his hand, and pulled him to his feet.

 

"I am lowborn," Davos reminded him. "An upjumped smuggler. Your lords will never obey me."

 

"Then we will make new lords."

 

Such a great moment for Stannis and Davos. 

 

Also that speech that the Hound gives is so good. I suspect that his knight speech is GRRM's view on it too.

Edited October 8, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

If I recall correctly, the Blackfish was much more "gentle" to Edmure in the books after his fail attempts at the funeral. The (failed, imo) combinaison of the Blackfish and the Greatjon in the show didnt work for me and I dont like the show! Blackfish as much as I wished I could.

 

He was and honestly, I'd have much rather kept the book version of Brynden and lost the bluster and blow of Greatjon and his tough meat.  

 

Blackfish just looked like a jerk, mocking Edmure (who is far more foolish in the show than in the books too) for not being able to deftly set his father's floating corpse ablaze.   I mean, it's not like you really get to practice that move all that often and weirdly enough, some people are upset when their parents (or brothers, for that matter) die.   

 

I think I probably would have found Edmure's reluctance to marry whatever terrible creature Walder Frey wished to inflict upon him, rather than the Frey of his choice a little more irritating if it wasn't for the fact that....Oh my God, poor freaking Edmure survives that horrific wedding in the series.  He's practically Lady Hornwood part deux in terms of the joyous union he can look forward to.  "Nice reception.  Pity about the slaughter of absolutely anyone and everyone I ever cared about.  Once I finish eternally puking, I'll do my duty or pluck out my own eyeballs or something..." 

 

ETA:  Recorded for posterity:  Score one for Charter.  They have already fixed our internet problem, in the same day it went wrong.  

 

Stars are aligning, people.  Moons are likely odd colors.  A fair wind blows across the sands of fate.  Quick, buy a powerball ticket, it is after all, apparently a day for miracles. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Please send your good luck my way. I've had an incredibly frustrating day that is likely to continue into the evening. I mean the best we have is a 40yo QB with the flu? Not going to be pretty.

Anyway, Beric Dondarrion, Bryndan Tully, Davos Seaworth. Shows that there are still honorable men in Westeros and all were given short shrift by the writers. Not to mention those who were excised from the story all together.

I don't know if any of you all watch Outlander but Tobias Menzies (Edmure) plays the bad guy and he is incredibly menacing in that. He's a wonderful actor that you can love or hate with a passion.

[netlyon2]

If I recall correctly, the Blackfish was much more "gentle" to Edmure in the books after his fail attempts at the funeral. The (failed, imo) combinaison of the Blackfish and the Greatjon in the show didnt work for me and I dont like the show! Blackfish as much as I wished I could.

Ugh, the Thugfish! (TM somebody brilliant here or at TWOP)  I remember watching that scene and asking who that guy was and what the hell they did with Bryndan Tully.  The Blackfish is everything; the Thugfish, not so much.

 

deftly set his father's floating corpse ablaze

Best ever description of Tully funeral customs!

[stillshimpy]

He was great as Brutus in Rome, Haleth, he really is a fantastic actor.    

 

Oh that's right, they play Football on Thursdays now too, don't they?  I wish your team well and you Quarterback....youth and health? Properly inflated equipment?  

 

I don't actually follow football much.  Or at all.  We have a team here, I feel certain of it.   It's either the Ravens or the Rams.  Might be the Raiders?  It's definitely an R. So clearly, I'm practically a good luck charm for the game.  I hope your day improves regardless of my vague waving of the most common consonants on wheel of fortune.  That ought to do it.  

 

 

 

Anyway, Beric Dondarrion, Bryndan Tully, Davos Seaworth. Shows that there are still honorable men in Westeros and all were given short shrift by the writers. Not to mention those who were excised from the story all together.

 

Seriously, every time I get through a passage where I wonder "Why, why, WHY would they change that?"  I can't help but imagine how it must have felt to you guys.  "Oh good, ANOTHER brothel scene instead of character development.   What a splendid narrative choice.  Thanks, Show."   

Because sometimes it wasn't just "we must make sure that we have plenty of screentime for breasts!! That's why people pay for HBO....is our theory! Despite hardcore porn being available all over the bloody place" of it all, it's stuff like having Jaime save Brienne from being raped AFTER he's maimed that just ...why did they have to diminish characterization?   

Or having the Brotherhood bloody well SELL Gendry which made me loath them and it isn't that I'm some giant Gendry fan, it's that that is reprehensible to do and they even framed it to make it more so "You're own of us, you have found your fam.....Oh, yes, absolutely, he's available for sale for the very obvious purposes of slaughter, Mellie.  Could you flash your boobs while you're here?"

 

Rather than having them actually give damn about anyone or anything.

 

And then in the show, they absolutely had Stannis yelling, "I killed my brother for this!"  whereas in the book, when he's so obviously broken and haunted...wasting away, seemingly under some kind of thrall and he STILL won't let Melisandre kill Robert's son, because he is Robert's son?  

 

I mean, I know this is not tale of heroes and saints, but man, they slimed-up a bunch of characters unnecessarily.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

Yea, it's kind of the fact that they aren't all heroes and saints, but they are collectively a hell of a lot more complex than the show gives us.  But yea, once you finish the books if you ever venture into book talk world, there are many, many, many complaints about how darn near every character has been handled lol.

 

I was wondering when you would get to the fact that the Gendry/Brotherhood story was different in the books - I haven't been checking chapter summaries.

[magdalene]

 

I don't know if any of you all watch Outlander but Tobias Menzies (Edmure) plays the bad guy and he is incredibly menacing in that. He's a wonderful actor that you can love or hate with a passion

I watched the first season of Rapelander as I like to call it (the name is not my invention) and barely made it through it. Never read the books and certainly do not want to after suffering through the TV adaptation. Worse rape porn than what they have ever shown on Game Of Thrones. Lurid as all hell.  Can't stand the sight of Tobias Menzies now after his role there.

[Dev F]

Blackfish just looked like a jerk, mocking Edmure (who is far more foolish in the show than in the books too) for not being able to deftly set his father's floating corpse ablaze.   I mean, it's not like you really get to practice that move all that often and weirdly enough, some people are upset when their parents (or brothers, for that matter) die. 

 

Well, in the show the Blackfish was actually already pissed off at Edmure for screwing up Robb's plan to defeat the Mountain, as we learn in their next scene. It would've been weird and confusing for Brynden to go from being very patient and loving with Edmure in his very first scene to being really angry and disappointed with him in his next. That adjustment seems like a pretty necessary result of compressing the Tullys' storyline in the first place.

[stillshimpy]

Except it wasn't necessary to include that scene at all.   In the show they weren't hanging around Riverun for ages, waiting for Hoster to die.  Catelyn gets word that he's ill and he's dead before we ever meet him.  There was no reason, pretty much at all, in the series for Catelyn's father to be included.  Have Catelyn get word that her father has died and skip the Viking send off.  

 

I think they just thought it would be funny, more than anything. They were clearly incredibly enamored of the whole Greatjon personality -- who I really haven't noticed being that big a deal in the books, by the way, so I'm not entirely sure why they so grieved for the loss of the availability of that character that they had to usurp another characterization entirely.  To be completely honest about it, we had a hell of a time telling Greatjon apart from Karstark as it was.   So I don't think he was quite the towering screen presence in terms of a much needed characterization that they believed him to be.  I may think that because Brynden Tully not being a blowhard bully is standing out to me in the books a lot more than the "Boy, I loved that Greatjon personality."  

 

I particularly appreciate the nickname Thugifsh, by the way, but I think they just thought it would be a moment of dark comedy in the show to have him bullying Edmure (who is used mostly for comedic ends and to be a figure of ridicule in the show) about being a poor archer.  

 

It just didn't need to be there otherwise.  The audience had zippo attachment to the guy we only meet when he's off to the hinterlands or the seven playgrounds or Valhalla or wherever it is that they believe awaits him.  They excised any hints about Lysa Tully's relationship with Petyr so....Papa Tully being off to the Land Invisible was not a meaningful moment to people who hadn't read the books....whereas "Why is he being so mean to that guy for not being able to set his dad on fire....?" was oddly striking, 

Edited October 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Holmbo]

I think they wanted to establish the characters as quickly as possible. So they made them extreme versions of the book characters and used the boat scene as their introduction.

They needed to do something with them. Overall the show seem to try to tell a lot of the characters through their introduction. Like with Tywin skinning that stag.

[Delta1212]

I think the show suffers a lot from the writers making logistical choices for the sake of the format without putting terribly much consideration into the long term effects on narrative and characterization. And I think they, like a lot of the book reader fans, suffer a bit from "Oh, I didn't take the scene that way at all because I'm familiar enough with the characters that that interpretation wouldn't even occur to me."

For instance on the logistical point, and going back to your comment about the order of Jaime's actions during the hand chop scene, sparing concern for Brienne right after getting his hand cut off is a good character moment for Jaime, whereas sticking up for her during a relatively low stakes moment for himself and then being punished for it has a somewhat different affect on the development of the character.

But the hand chop makes for a good "cut to credits" moment and splitting the scene up between two episodes to maintain the chronology would have made a mess of the dramatic impact of both scenes.

Ultimately, they went with the punchier episode ender over concern for the characterization.

Similarly, it does make plenty of sense to use Gendey over introducing a new character in Edric Storm for a whole host of reasons, but once they made the decision to substitute him, they went for the straightest path possible to get Gendry into that position, and blew up a whole bunch of character and narrative arcs to do it.

I give the writers a lot of credit for juggling an absolute monster of a television production, but there are clearly times that a proposed solution introduced a litany of new problems that went unaddressed either because they didn't notice them or because they didn't become clear until it was already too late to go back and block out a new arc for the season.

[Haleth]

And (it can never be said enough) they had to save time for the weekly allotment of boobage.

[glowbug]

I think the show suffers a lot from the writers making logistical choices for the sake of the format without putting terribly much consideration into the long term effects on narrative and characterization. And I think they, like a lot of the book reader fans, suffer a bit from "Oh, I didn't take the scene that way at all because I'm familiar enough with the characters that that interpretation wouldn't even occur to me."

 

I think this also applies to the introduction of the Reed children. If you've read the books it wouldn't even occur to you to question their motives or identities, but without that background knowledge it's perfectly reasonable to be suspicious of them. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by glowbug

[stillshimpy]

Well, back when we started the entire Unspoiled Speculation thing, White Stumbler and I were PMing about the whole gig and basically agreed to do the Unsullied deal to see if it was possible to take such a giant source material and convey it solely on a screen.  That's why we never did character guides, or the maps on HBO or anything the HBO background information, DVD extras or any of that.   We were trying to see: Given only this format: Can they get the actual job done? 

 

And I do know for sure now that the answer to that is no.  It was not and is not possible to try and convey the story without the benefit of more materials, like the HBO guides, etc.  The story is just rendered less interesting.  First season?  Very close to it, but they started to veer away from that more and more.  You know, one of the bigger changes that I notice is that Joffrey is MORE of a character on the show than he is in the books.  There's just more to him. 

 

The villains have lost a LOT.   I did just read Jaime's chapter, where he covered basically the same material he did in the series, but with the added information about the pyromancer and killing all the pyromancers over the course of days (and I couldn't tell if that was before or after Ned found him in the Throne room, but I didn't get the sense that the King had been dead for days by the time Ned made it there....I could be wrong though).  

 

What the show had Brienne reply was not "If this is true, how is it that no one knows this?"  but rather, "Why didn't you tell Ned Stark?"  and at the time I argued that it wouldn't have changed Ned's mind about him, but I actually think it might have.  What the show has is Jaime telling Ned that when he killed the King it felt like Justice and talked about a Throne Room's worth of people watching in utter silence as Ned's father and brother burned alive.   So it frames the only time that Jaime talks to Ned about that as Jaime trying to claim it was justice for Ned's father.  

 

But weirdly enough, I think if Ned had found him sitting anywhere other than on the throne, at the foot of the stairs, wherever and he'd said, "He ordered me to kill my father and he was going to burn the entire city alive."  You know....I think even though Old Rule Book Ned was all about the rules, he's probably the one guy who actually would have understood why the rules get changed for your family.  

 

So it really was a combination of pride and arrogance, I think.  If he'd told Ned the truth, at the time.  If he been anything other than an arrogant jerk about it, it would have changed Ned's mind at least.  I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.  No matter who Jon's mother is or isn't (and really quite glad that they finally got around to hinting that there might actually have been a chance Ned had been in love with someone else) ....he constantly thought about Lyanna saying, "Promise me..."  I think Ned would have understood if he'd been able to associate it with familial love.  

 

Besides, apparently Ned only ever wanted him thrown out of the Kingsguard (fair) and sent to the Wall, not killed.  So I think that likely would have at least changed the 'sent to the Wall" part of Ned's judgment.  

 

It's an incredibly sad chapter, in that I know what's coming up at that damned wedding and in the show, Brienne was always "I don't serve the Starks" whereas here she was all "King Robb this..." and "King Robb that..." and I will be very interested to see what becomes of Vargo Hoat, but Jeez, Bolton's quite the vampire.  

 

I could have sworn that Bolton had been married to Walda Frey for some time though.  Or married to someone, because there is some reference to his true born sons.  I suppose that could have been "at some point" but still.   Strangely amusing that Bolton is obsessed with being leeched and with bowel movements.   A scatologically obsessed vampire, cannibal.  Well....go big or go home, I guess.  

Edited October 10, 2015 by stillshimpy

[magdalene]

Roose Bolton is so creepy and he really scared me in this chapter. I remember thinking upon first reading that Jaime is clearly at least very wary of Bolton and if Jaime is scared by someone....

 

The events leading up to the mad king's killing are so horrific. What has stuck with me are also the smaller touches, like Jaime remembering the kings poor wife. And how young Jaime was when all this went down.

 

Ah, and this is where I first took notice of sweet Pia, one of my favorite minor characters in the books.

Edited October 10, 2015 by magdalene

[John Potts]

stillshimpy Bolton's quite the vampire. 

I could have sworn that Bolton had been married to Walda Frey for some time though.  Or married to someone, because there is some reference to his true born sons.

 

Roose Bolton had a previous wife (Bethany Bolton) who gave him a son (Domeric), who met with Ramsay and died.* According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, this was actually Roose's second wife (he had no children by his first wife) and Walda Frey is his third.

 

And I don't know if you've read it online, but "Roose Bolton is secretly a vampire" (or an "Other". Or a Vampire Other. Or... well, you get the idea) is one of the wilder theories out there (but looking for that sort of thing is a guarantee of getting spoiled).

 

* There is no connection between these events. None at all!

 

ETA: Sorry, I thought that had already been revealed

Edited October 10, 2015 by John Potts

[Holmbo]

I love Roose is a vampire/son of a white walker. That crack pot theory really draws from every part of the world building to make it's case. I like all kinds of theories that tries to connect the different kinds of magic.

[feverfew]

Well, back when we started the entire Unspoiled Speculation thing, White Stumbler and I were PMing about the whole gig and basically agreed to do the Unsullied deal to see if it was possible to take such a giant source material and convey it solely on a screen.  That's why we never did character guides, or the maps on HBO or anything the HBO background information, DVD extras or any of that.   We were trying to see: Given only this format: Can they get the actual job done? 

 

And I do know for sure now that the answer to that is no.  It was not and is not possible to try and convey the story without the benefit of more materials, like the HBO guides, etc.  The story is just rendered less interesting.  First season?  Very close to it, but they started to veer away from that more and more. 

That is very interesting to me; because I - despite the fact that I in general love the books - haven't thought of it that way. The main storyline is told, and told rather well in my opinion; it's the side stories that suffers in comparison. For all ASOIAF is said to be breaking the fantasy mold, it isn't, really. Distilled, it's a story about an exiled princess and a prince-who-doesn't-know-he's-a-prince, and a world that faces an otherwordly threat that only the chosen few can bannish. Doesn't mean it isn't told well, but it's not exactly new, either. The main protagonists as per the original outline (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya) is all some form of stereotypes, so it's up to the side characters to flesh out the world. And you made me think of how the world diminishes, when these stories are underplayed / characterizations changed in the show.

 

Does that mean I don't enjoy the show? That I'm not celebrating everything they get right? No, and I still think they manages to get most of it right. My favourite character is Sansa (yes, still) and I have great hopes for her future on the show. I'm not fond of every change, but I don't think the show fails to tell the (main) story.

 

There is also the fact that I was sorely disappointed by the later books, and therefore don't understand the reverence by which some people hold the book series as a whole. In fact, I think especially Dance coloured my perception of the books to a degree where I actively look forward to the changes in the show.

[Protar]

That is very interesting to me; because I - despite the fact that I in general love the books - haven't thought of it that way. The main storyline is told, and told rather well in my opinion; it's the side stories that suffers in comparison. For all ASOIAF is said to be breaking the fantasy mold, it isn't, really. Distilled, it's a story about an exiled princess and a prince-who-doesn't-know-he's-a-prince, and a world that faces an otherwordly threat that only the chosen few can bannish. Doesn't mean it isn't told well, but it's not exactly new, either. The main protagonists as per the original outline (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya) is all some form of stereotypes, so it's up to the side characters to flesh out the world. And you made me think of how the world diminishes, when these stories are underplayed / characterizations changed in the show.

 

I think this is rather the point though. If those standard tropes and cliches weren't there in some form, Martin couldn't subvert them. He doesn't just avoid tropes, he examines them. Because "tropes" do actually happen in real life, just with consequences not often explored in fiction. Arya for example - typical tomboy princess it would seem. But then she has to travel across a war torn country, becomes increasingly numb and desensitised to violence etc. That's just one of many examples. 

[Delta1212]

Roose Bolton had a previous wife (Bethany Bolton) who gave him a son (Domeric), who met with Ramsay and died.* According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, this was actually Roose's second wife (he had no children by his first wife) and Walda Frey is his third

And I don't know if you've read it online, but "Roose Bolton is secretly a vampire" (or an "Other". Or a Vampire Other. Or... well, you get the idea) is one of the wilder theories out there (but looking for that sort of thing is a guarantee of getting spoiled).

* There is no connection between these events. None at all!

This is all stuff that gets talked about in the books that I'm pretty sure hasn't come up yet. Maybe we can leave stuff for shimpy to read herself instead of drawing explanations from the Wiki?

I've been skipping around a bit in my re-read as I follow along since I don't have time right now to read every chapter in full, but I'm pretty sure I remember the specific chapter some of this is discussed in and that it definitely hasn't arrived yet.

[stillshimpy]

Does that mean I don't enjoy the show? That I'm not celebrating everything they get right? No, and I still think they manages to get most of it right. My favourite character is Sansa (yes, still) and I have great hopes for her future on the show. I'm not fond of every change, but I don't think the show fails to tell the (main) story.

 

But I think it is fair to say that whereas someone could still love the story just as much, they'd be loving a different animal entirely.  As I said earlier, Osha was one of my favorite characters specifically because I have protective streak in my nature, so I'm going to like characters that just try to do the right thing.  In the series it would be almost impossible to view Jaime Lannister as one of the people who spends most of his time trying to do the right thing -- and the Bran tossing will always put that into question anyway -- but in the books, as they are developing him, it turns out that mostly he's someone who has been embittered by a series of events, an emotionally bereft childhood that left him with a damaged understanding of what love actually is and someone who is actually quite concerned with trying to abide by some code of honor. 

 

You really can't get that from most of screen Jaime.  Sure, he jumps into a pit to save Brienne from a bear and he stops her initial rape.  Then Jaime is pretty much out on actions that might be seen to be motivated by doing the right thing, in the series (this last season notwithstanding because it's my understanding on any character and I'm not mentioning anything from it because I do know some readers skipped this season).  

 

I think that screen Tyrion would easily be thought of as the guy who tries to do the right thing most of the time and actually cares deeply, even if he is embittered by an emotionally bereft.....you get the point. Book Tyrion?  Yeah, he is a much darker figure than the series would have a person understand and is so unconcerned with keeping his word, or adhering to some form of honor he seems to entirely forget that he promised to release the Stark girls in exchange for his brother.  This is a point visited over and over again by the Lawful Good (if judged as naive) characters like Brienne "but he made a solemn oath, in front of gods..." etc.  

 

I have been a defender of Sansa from day one and will likely be one until the end of the story days, but the character in the books is not the same character I've defended so many times.  I defended Sansa because she was under attack so much and she's a young girl, etc.  Anyone who read the Unspoiled thread, or the Unsullied Habitat threads has seen me defend Sansa a bunch. 

 

Funnily enough, I'd have defended her from a much stronger position if I'd known the book character first.  For instance, I get that a lot of book readers hate Sansa because a) they think she's prissy but mostly b) she went to Cersei and Cersei asserts that is the reason she was able to stop Ned Stark's plans.   There are so many ways to take that one down its practically Lion-on-the-Serengeti-vs.-antelope levels of easy.   However, there's one point that I would never be able to make without the book that is, perhaps, far more important:  

 

Arya could just as easily be blamed in exactly the same manner, but for an earlier action.  When Sansa goes to the queen it's because she is being denied what she personally wants and she defies her father to get what she wants.   But things start to go spectacularly to shit for the Starks when Arya won't do as she's told.  Won't ride with the Queen and Sansa, wear a dress, do as she's told by her father and instead runs off to play with Micah.  

 

Now I'm not even going to continue that line of thinking because it's pretty much absurd to blame a nine-year-old girl for running off to play rather than being stuffed into a dress she hates and being made miserable all day.   Or for in anyway being responsible for the resulting actions of a bunch of psychopaths, because she isn't one, it's not as she could have guessed how wrong disobeying the authority figures in her life could possibly go.  However, Sansa gets the same pass on that one in many ways.  That she doesn't get that Joffrey is a psycho and so is Cersei after that entire debacle is something I can understand people saying, "OH COME ON, HOW COULD SHE NOT...." because she'd have no reason to understand that the world contained that level of horror or people could be that murderously duplicitous.  Her exposure to the world has been through the lens of Winterfell, what her parents told her was true of the world and a bunch of fairytales about brave knights and beautiful ladies.  That she doesn't like her little sister very much is kind of typical and a feeling shared by Arya towards Sansa.  

 

She's got a kid's judgment.  So does Arya.  

Plus, Sansa is a much different creature in the series than in the books.   Series Sansa gets batted around like a chess pawn and never seems to learn.  Book Sansa is trying to learn and one of the saddest parts about being married off to Tyrion like a goat being sold in a bartering session is that she doesn't expect anything different from the wished for marriage to Willas, she just hopes that he might come to love her in addition to the acquisitions she represents.  

 

So I take your point, truly.  It isn't that the series has done a terrible job of creating an interesting story or characters, but past the first season they don't actually bear a lot resemblance to their book counterparts.  Robb Stark almost criminally so, because when he finally digs in his heels and acts like a stubborn Stark kid, it isn't because he's going to marry for love....dammit.  It's because he won't ask for peace, or swear loyalty to the family that murdered his father.  

 

Meanwhile, the villains, while rendered with fewer layers, remain much the same creatures.    

 

Then apparently they just gave Lena Headey some kind of power in deciding on Cersei's characterization, but when you first told me that some readers call her Carol, I thought it a little odd.  Series Cersei is actually a very interesting character with quite a few layers.  

 

And then the Men of the Night's Watch... eh....bigger problems still there.  

 

So it isn't that the series tells a bad story.  It just primarily stopped telling this one.  

[Lady S.]

 

I could have sworn that Bolton had been married to Walda Frey for some time though.  Or married to someone, because there is some reference to his true born sons.  I suppose that could have been "at some point" but still.   Strangely amusing that Bolton is obsessed with being leeched and with bowel movements.   A scatologically obsessed vampire, cannibal.  Well....go big or go home, I guess.  

I think this might be what you're thinking of "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay’s nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived.” (in reference to Ramsay's faked death when Rodrik killed the first Reek) Promised me as in not yet delivered, and it's when Cat returns to Riverrun from Renly's camp that she learns from Edmure that Roose has married a Frey, as that is one of Edmure's justifications for removing the northerners left to guard the Twins. 

[chandraReborn]

The whole 'Carol' thing isn't because Show Cersei is a badly-written character--she's just extremely different from book Cersei in all ways, so much that it's easier to think of her as a different person. 

[Protar]

The whole 'Carol' thing isn't because Show Cersei is a badly-written character--she's just extremely different from book Cersei in all ways, so much that it's easier to think of her as a different person. 

 

Indeed the rationale for the nickname was that unlike so many characters on the show now, Carol is actually a consistent and pretty well written character. One of the only ones left on the show as of season 5 imo. But she's pretty much the exact opposite of what she is in the books. 

 

Personally I can't really say that the show is telling a good story any longer but that's a whole other thread.

[stillshimpy]

The whole 'Carol' thing isn't because Show Cersei is a badly-written character--she's just extremely different from book Cersei in all ways, so much that it's easier to think of her as a different person.

 

I am not actually saying she's badly written on the show, just that she's not the same character as in the books.  Show Cersei plays to the (pretty much undeniable, I believe) substantial acting skills of Lena Headey.  Book Cersie is -- thus far --  a standard issue Beautiful Evil Queen with a few strange sexual preferences. 

 

This is what I actually said about Show Cersei:  Series Cersei is actually a very interesting character with quite a few layers.  Series means Show, not book series. Sorry if I'm being confusing in that.  

Edited October 10, 2015 by stillshimpy