Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Hecate7]

I'm not going to judge people by Westerosi standards. I'm going to judge them by my standards and ultimately Tyrion did molest Sansa and had intent to rape her.

 

If you're going to do that, then pretty much every married man in Westeros is a rapist. And unlike Tyrion, who stopped at a slight touch before thinking to himself that it was wrong, every other man actually DID it. Khal Drogo, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark....you'll have a very hard time finding an instance of a Westerosi bridegroom who isn't a rapist by OUR standards, either because of the bride's age, or because of her complete lack of interest or consent. MOST Westerosi grooms proceed pretty much like Ramsey only a tad nicer, or like Khal Drogo. What else would they do? What else do they know? At least Tyrion STOPPED. And he stopped without even having to hear the word no. He could feel it hanging in the air and he honored it, even while Sansa consented.

[Hecate7]

Wow on the Ned front.

 

And I still don't know why we talk about the ages of these people at all - it's just unrealistic to believe Sansa is 12 the way she is described in the books, or that Dany mastered Drogo through sex at 13, etc....

 

Wait, so we're white-washing Ned to bring him up to Tyrion's level? LOL! I love it.

[SeanC]

If you're going to do that, then pretty much every married man in Westeros is a rapist. And unlike Tyrion, who stopped at a slight touch before thinking to himself that it was wrong, every other man actually DID it. Khal Drogo, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark....you'll have a very hard time finding an instance of a Westerosi bridegroom who isn't a rapist by OUR standards, either because of the bride's age, or because of her complete lack of interest or consent.

No, they're not.  There is a damn huge difference between ordinary arranged marriages where the bride may not be in love with the new hubby and a marriage where the husband's family murdered the bride's father, took her hostage, beat and abused her, and then threatened her with more physical abuse unless she went through with the ceremony.  There is no sense in which you could say Ned Stark would be considered a rapist.  Drogo and Robert are, because they forced themselves on their wives.

 

MOST Westerosi grooms proceed pretty much like Ramsey only a tad nicer, or like Khal Drogo.

 

Why do you think that?  I imagine most Westerosi grooms and brides are businesslike about the whole matter (though nervous, particularly in the bride's case).

 

He could feel it hanging in the air and he honored it, even while Sansa consented.

 

Sansa didn't consent.

Edited October 5, 2015 by SeanC

[WindyNights]

@hecate Off the top of my head, I believe it's in the first Bran chapter of AGOT when he says "Let's see what my sons are doing" in reference to Jon and Robb when they find the direwolves. It's not in reference to Bran and Robb because Bran is right next to him

A 12 year old can't consent.

Edited October 5, 2015 by WindyNights

[Hecate7]

No, they're not.  There is a damn huge difference between ordinary arranged marriages where the bride may not be in love with the new hubby and a marriage where the husband's family murdered the bride's father, took her hostage, beat and abused her, and then threatened her with more physical abuse unless she went through with the ceremony.  There is no sense in which you could say Ned Stark would be considered a rapist.  Drogo and Robert are, because they forced themselves on their wives.

 

Why do you think that?  I imagine most Westerosi grooms and brides are businesslike about the whole matter (though nervous, particularly in the bride's case).

 

Sansa didn't consent.

 

Sansa said yes, lay down, and took off her clothes. To MOST people that would look like consent. Tyrion happened to notice that it wasn't. A 12 year old in 21st century America can't consent, but Sansa in Westeros is of age and married. BTW, in Kansas you can get married at 13 if your parents give their permission. In Westeros, as in Medieval Europe, a girl comes of age when she menstruates, and she marries soon afterwards.

 

There is a damn huge difference between ordinary arranged marriages where the bride may not be in love with the new hubby and a marriage where the husband's family murdered the bride's father, took her hostage, beat and abused her, and then threatened her with more physical abuse unless she went through with the ceremony. 

 

 

Not really. The bride faces physical violence or social and economic ostracism and privation in both cases, so it's not that different. I don't see that it makes any difference whether your rapist is selected by your family, or by your family's enemies.

 

Tyrion didn't kill Robb. He didn't plan the Red Wedding. He didn't execute Ned Stark, and Joffrey did that without the consent of anyone in the family. He was not involved in ANY of the mistreatment of Sansa's family. It is as ridiculous to lay all that at his feet, as it is to lay the loss of Jaime's hand and Tyrion's nose at Sansa's. In fact, it would be as appropriate to lay every horrible thing Joffrey and Cersei did up until Blackwater, at Sansa's feet, since, after all, she was engaged to Joffrey.

 

Nobody calls Romeo a rapist because he killed Tybalt and Juliet's not 14 yet and his family have been killing Capulets for generations and vice versa. It's ridiculous to keep laying the charge to Tyrion.

 

Sansa is of age in that culture. She is described as having a "tall, womanly figure" and every man who sees her desires her. So we're going to condemn Tyrion for merely desiring her? She had agreed to marry Wyllas, and nobody seemed to think that was bad. If she'd had a wedding night with Wyllas, would we be calling it rape? The Tyrells fought on the Lannister side against Robb. Margaery was marrying Joffrey, who killed Ned, which would make it Wyllas's family, too, that killed Sansa's. But nobody lays that at Wyllas' feet. Fans were rooting for her to run off with the Hound and probably become his mistress. Where was this "12 can't consent" then? Sansa is only a little older than she was after her wedding to Tyrion, but she's ready for Harry the Heir, or Peter Baelish, or Ramsey Bolton, or anyone really except Tyrion. Baelish was MUCH more instrumental in her family's deaths, than was Tyrion, but no one minds that he lusts after Sansa. He's even older than Tyrion and he maneuvered Ned and Joffrey, and I'm sure we'll find out he advised Joffrey to give Ned a quick death. He was standing next to Joffrey and was the only one who didn't look surprised when sentence was given. But if she someday consents to Baelish, as I'm pretty sure she will, will people be calling it rape? 

[SeanC]

Not really. The bride faces physical violence or social and economic ostracism and privation in both cases, so it's not that different. I don't see that it makes any difference whether your rapist is selected by your family, or by your family's enemies.

It's very different.  I don't see how you can possibly read the books and think GRRM means for you to think that Sansa's marriage is no different from any other.  Sansa is like Lady Hornwood.

 

Tyrion didn't kill Robb. He didn't plan the Red Wedding. He didn't execute Ned Stark, and Joffrey did that without the consent of anyone in the family. He was not involved in ANY of the mistreatment of Sansa's family. It is as ridiculous to lay all that at his feet, as it is to lay the loss of Jaime's hand and Tyrion's nose at Sansa's. In fact, it would be as appropriate to lay every horrible thing Joffrey and Cersei did up until Blackwater, at Sansa's feet, since, after all, she was engaged to Joffrey.

Oh please.  Tyrion is a willing member of the Lannister regime, and in marrying Sansa he is carrying out the wishes of the regime.  If he doesn't want to be associated with their crimes against Sansa, he needs to stop associating with them.  Sansa is a hostage.

 

Nobody calls Romeo a rapist because he killed Tybalt and Juliet's not 14 yet and his family have been killing Capulets for generations and vice versa. It's ridiculous to keep laying the charge to Tyrion.

Nobody calls Romeo a rapist because Juliet wanted to marry him.

 

Where was this "12 can't consent" then?

Ages are different in Westeros (though it's noted that Sansa is unusually young even by those standards).  The far more relevant factor is that Sansa is a hostage.  She cannot consent to marry Tyrion for that reason.  Of course, part of her enthusiasm for the Tyrell marriage is the prospect of escaping KL, so in a sense there's also pressure there, but the fact remains that she wants that marriage, and doesn't want Tyrion (or any Lannister).

 

Sansa is only a little older than she was after her wedding to Tyrion, but she's ready for Harry the Heir, or Peter Baelish, or Ramsey Bolton, or anyone really except Tyrion.

Again, who is saying this?

 

Baelish was MUCH more instrumental in her family's deaths, than was Tyrion, but no one minds that he lusts after Sansa.

Um, seriously?  Baelish is roundly and rightly condemned for his behaviour toward Sansa.

 

But if she someday consents to Baelish, as I'm pretty sure she will, will people be calling it rape?

Yes, for the same reason as Tyrion:  Baelish is holding her hostage.

Edited October 5, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Guys, we are tipping ever so slightly into territory where shimpy hasn't gotten to yet.  I thought about making an entire post under spoiler tags, but I think we should just wait and let her join in the fun. :)

[SeanC]

True enough.

[stillshimpy]

If you're going to do that, then pretty much every married man in Westeros is a rapist. And unlike Tyrion, who stopped at a slight touch before thinking to himself that it was wrong, every other man actually DID it. Khal Drogo, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark....you'll have a very hard time finding an instance of a Westerosi bridegroom who isn't a rapist by OUR standards, either because of the bride's age, or because of her complete lack of interest or consent. MOST Westerosi grooms proceed pretty much like Ramsey only a tad nicer, or like Khal Drogo. What else would they do? What else do they know? At least Tyrion STOPPED. And he stopped without even having to hear the word no. He could feel it hanging in the air and he honored it, even while Sansa consented.

That's actually not true.

The only thing that I will give George Martin in all of this, is that he has made it clear that it isn't just women who are unaware that such a thing as consent can and should exist.

Robert gets hammered drunk to "do his duty" ...god alone knows what Ned did -- probably thought of something entirely honorable and likely pretty boring, but the man's family had just been HIDEOUSLY killed. Robert's intended had been abducted and was dead, he allegedly loved her. Jon Arryn didn't wish to marry Lysa Tully either. They are all doing the deed because they were told to believe it was their duty to do so.

In the case of Drogo, the way it is written, he actually takes the time to try and turn Dany on....even if he and all the Dothraki are practically famed in song and story for raping as a way of life. <--- one of the few times I will credit Martin with an interesting inclusion although I'm glad they changed it for the story, he had the guy who headed up the Rapists R Us culture demonstrate an awareness of feeling that consent was important.

Jon's lack of mental consent is covered. He still does it.

Just because a man consummates his marriage, doesn't then mean he gave sexual consent. Being able to get it up is not the same as consent.

I highly doubt Ned Stark was jumping through mental hoops of joy at the thought of having to fuck his dead brother's intended. He just was told it was his duty. Similarly, Jon Arryn was apparently grossed out at having to take the "spoiled" Lysa.

The problem the story has is not that all men the men in it are rapists, it is that they all come from a culture where they are told they have to screw whatever person they are married to as an act of duty. Consummation under these circumstances does not equal consent.

The reason I said that Tyrion refusing to rape Sansa doesn't win him any hero points from me is because of this: First he has her undress -- AFTER REMARKING THAT "You're a child" and then admits to wanting her anyway. He doesn't go through with it because she's clearly terrified and only doing what she has been told (by him, no fucking less, as he instructs her to get on the bed and leave herself uncovered "let's do our duty" ) is her duty.

That he realizes it is wrong to sexually force himself on a terrified twelve-year-old doesn't make him a hero....because he's the only person in the room, in the marriage, in the situation that has any consent....and then he grants Sansa the right to not consent for as long as she likes (which I admit, is a good moment for Tyrion).

But it does not then follow that every man who ever consummated a marriage for the sake of duty is a rapist. In a lot of ways, he's just as raped if it is something he doesn't wish to actually do, but feels he must.

You are confusing the ability to become sexually aroused with equaling consent. It isn't the same thing. In Ned's marriage, he's married off like a goat too....and to someone he knows must be thinking of his brother. Robert loved Lyanna and got so drunk he apparently pretended Cersei was Lyanna, in order to go through with the deed. Doesn't make poor Cersei any less violated by the whole deal, but it's also fair to say that the entire arranged marriage "You have to have sex now, even if the person makes you want to hurl" is a violation for both parties. Martin even makes this that much clearer because The Bedding features not just the women being stripped naked by a group of men....the bridegroom is also, by a bunch of women, pawing at him, leering at him.

I'll give Martin this much: He made that sucker an equal opportunity gross violation of a person's right to control of and agency over ones own body.

I can't address every darned marriage in Westeros but I can about the specific ones you mentioned. I can and do, strenuously and emphatically object to the concept that the ability to become aroused is interchangeable with consent in men.

ETA: That is one thing that I have ended up being impressed with in Martin's stories and understand why they would have such difficulty figuring out how to make that translate onscreen. True consent is often denied both partners and part of the reason Tyrion stops is because Sansa shudders at his touch.

When Bronn is sent to fetch Shae, one of the things he makes sure to have Bronn tell her is that he is a dwarf. That he was not willing to deal with a paid-companion reacting to his body negatively. He's had too much of that in his life and -- really very understandably -- really simply won't have it from someone he is paying for sex.

Sansa showed that revulsion. Since it was stated as one of Tyrion's fears, sensitivities beforehand ,it as likely had as much to do with that as as anything else and he even tells her....they can wait until she desires him. When she asks what if she never does he says, "that is why there are prostitutes for men like me."

I don't know that it really is so much that Tyrion recognizes, "This is just wrong and horrible and I will not do this" although that may have been part of it -- it seemed to be about Sansa's reaction colliding with his own personal fears of rejection impacting his own emotional issues.

Edited October 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

I do give Tyrion some credit. Deciding to face the wrath of Tywin had to be daunting. I can see how he'd let the consummation progress, albeit reluctantly, until he finally found the strength to say nope, not gonna happen.

[nksarmi]

shimpy - I strongly suspect that Tyrion stopping the bedding process is in fact MORE about him than Sansa - lord only knows which one of them would have been more humiliated by the process. And it may very well be that Tyrion deciding to wait until Sansa desires him really is about him not wanting to be with someone who can't at least pretend to enjoy him.  Unfortunately, Tyrion and Sansa weren't together long enough to discover if he would have been progressive enough to allow her to take a lover if she never wanted him and been willing to claim any child she conceived as his own.  I honestly have no idea what either one of them would have done if they had stayed together long enough in a polite but unconsummated marriage once Sansa reached the point of wanting children.

 

I guess I "give him points" because I think in the end, he did well by her and that's more than I can say for just about anyone else poor Sansa interacts with.  Book vs. show point of clarification: 

Does Sansa know who killed Joffrey in the books? I can't remember if she knows Tyrion is innocent and being wrongly accused.

 

But yes, in general sex is Westerous is about the unsexiest thing ever.  Jon's lack of consent aside, his enjoyment of his time with Ygritte is one of the few times sex is presented in a positive light (well that and when Dany conquers Drogo by becoming a good lover which is still unbelievable to me at the age GRRM says she is).  I mean sex ranges from being a thing of duty with someone you come to love (Ned/Catelyn or Dany/Drogo), a thing of duty with someone you are never able to stand (Robert/Cersei), something unhonorable or forbidden (like Jon/Ygritte or even LF/Lysa), something really messed up (Jamie/Cersei or Craster and his wives/daughters), or something you have to pay for to enjoy (Tyrion or even Viserys).  I mean really how many couples in this series choose each other with equal abilities to consent, feel some amount of affection toward one another, and genuinely seem to enjoy each other with their relationship breaking no vows - the only two I can think of at present is when Dany first takes Daario as a lover and Oberyn and his lover (whose name for some reason I can't recall at the moment).

Edited October 6, 2015 by nksarmi

[WindyNights]

@nksaemi To answer your question, yes, she does know.

And you're thinking of Ellaria.

[Hecate7]

It's very different.  I don't see how you can possibly read the books and think GRRM means for you to think that Sansa's marriage is no different from any other.  Sansa is like Lady Hornwood.

 

Oh please.  Tyrion is a willing member of the Lannister regime, and in marrying Sansa he is carrying out the wishes of the regime.  If he doesn't want to be associated with their crimes against Sansa, he needs to stop associating with them.  Sansa is a hostage.

 

Sansa is NOT like Lady Hornwood. Sansa is alive. She has not been raped, and she never starved. Tyrion is not the one holding her hostage. He never hurt her, in fact, he married her partly to save her from whatever was about to happen to her if she stopped being useful to his family. Lady Hornwood was literally married at swordpoint to the man who killed her. There is no comparison. Ramsey starved her in a tower while he spent her money. Tyrion did not confine Sansa, in fact, she could have escaped from him at any time, and eventually she did. Tyrion didn't starve her--on the contrary, he'd have given her whatever she asked--money, books, houses, jewels, clothes--she understandably didn't ask, but that's not his fault. He was going to take her to Casterly Rock to get her far away from Joffrey, but that turned out not to be necessary.

 

Sansa with Tyrion was a hostage in the same way Theon Greyjoy was a hostage to Robb Stark.

 

And if you want Tyrion to "stop associating" with the Lannisters,

I'd say that putting a crossbow bolt through Tywin and vowing to kill Jaime and Cersei, then leaving the country and being sold into slavery definitely ends the association

. He was already distancing from everyone but Jaime anyway.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Sansa is NOT like Lady Hornwood. 

Yes, she is, on the point that she was abducted and married at swordpoint.

 

Tyrion is not the one holding her hostage.

Yes, he is.  He is part of the regime.  He's one of her nicer jailers, but he's still one of them.

 

He never hurt her, in fact, he married her partly to save her from whatever was about to happen to her if she stopped being useful to his family.

No, that was not his motivation.  Never once does he think that.

 

Tyrion did not confine Sansa, in fact, she could have escaped from him at any time, and eventually she did.

Um, Sansa was most definitely under guard.  She just found a way out regardless.

 

Sansa with Tyrion was a hostage in the same way Theon Greyjoy was a hostage to Robb Stark.

Theon Greyjoy was a hostage to Robb Stark.

Edited October 6, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

I can't address every darned marriage in Westeros but I can about the specific ones you mentioned. I can and do, strenuously and emphatically object to the concept that the ability to become aroused is interchangeable with consent in men

 

Then Tyrion's as raped as Sansa. He calls it "our duty." He does actually have the thought that it would be wrong to take Sansa. I don't think it's just a matter of feeling rejected, although I think that most men in his culture would not have hesitated for a second. Brandon, Edmure, Theon, Robb, and most happy young men would have had the bedding and deflowered their brides despite of any tears being shed. Ned, Bran, Baelish, Tyrion, and Jaime are exceptions, possibly because they are capable of imagining that the woman might not want them.

 

I don't buy that in the dutiful rape of a wife, a man is raped just as much. The person being penetrated is being raped a lot more, and if everyone is happy but the bride (and Arryn could have said no, so I don't buy that he was overcome with disgust by his nonvirgin 15-year-old bride who at that time was considered more beautiful than her sister), then only the bride is getting raped. Lack of enthusiasm isn't quite the same as lack of consent.

 

I've seen a few arranged marriages where the bride is terrified and looking for a way out, but her parents will punish her if she refuses, and she will be disowned and cast out, so she goes ahead with it. The groom, on the other hand, is able to reject the bride if he isn't impressed with her, and he isn't disowned or punished. They just look for another bride he'll like better.

[SeanC]

Brandon, Edmure, Theon, Robb, and most happy young men would have had the bedding and deflowered their brides despite of any tears being shed. Ned, Bran, Baelish, Tyrion, and Jaime are exceptions, possibly because they are capable of imagining that the woman might not want them.

Baelish is an exception?  Whut?  And on what basis do you think Robb would have raped his bride?

[Hecate7]

Yes, she is, on the point that she was abducted and married at swordpoint.

 

Yes, he is.  He is part of the regime.  He's one of her nicer jailers, but he's still one of them.

 

No, that was not his motivation.  Never once does he think that.

 

Um, Sansa was most definitely under guard.  She just found a way out regardless.

 

Theon Greyjoy was a hostage to Robb Stark.

 

Theon Greyjoy was a hostage to Ned Stark. Robb made him his sworn brother. He probably shouldn't have. So far, the moral of this story seems to be "kill the hostages."

Baelish is an exception?  Whut?  And on what basis do you think Robb would have raped his bride?

 

On the basis that he wouldn't think twice about doing the expected thing. He is a nice normal popular guy, the kind who wouldn't know he was raping unless the girl screamed and tried to hit him with something heavy. Meanwhile Tyrion gets it because she doesn't look happy. Baelish is an exception in the sense that he could read the body language and know consent wasn't in the air, but unlike Tyrion he would not necessarily care.

[SeanC]

Theon Greyjoy was a hostage to Ned Stark. Robb made him his sworn brother. He probably shouldn't have. So far, the moral of this story seems to be "kill the hostages."

Theon was forbidden to leave Robb's camp until Robb let him go.  He remained a hostage, albeit one whose status was more complicated.

[Hecate7]

Theon was forbidden to leave Robb's camp until Robb let him go.  He remained a hostage, albeit one whose status was more complicated.

 

Theon and Sansa are in very similar positions. They are hand-me-down hostages handed down from their original captors to someone who actually cares about them and wants to be a friend. Everyone finds Theon's treatment of the Starks shocking and horrible. Sansa assisting in framing Tyrion for murder isn't quite as bad as what Theon did to the Starks, but it's a kind of parallel arc. It's just longer, slower, and has weird sexual tension, and so I expect by the end she will cost Tyrion the same way Theon cost Robb.

[WindyNights]

 

 

On the basis that he(Robb) wouldn't think twice about doing the expected thing. He is a nice normal popular guy, the kind who wouldn't know he was raping unless the girl screamed and tried to hit him with something heavy. Meanwhile Tyrion gets it because she doesn't look happy. Baelish is an exception in the sense that he could read the body language and know consent wasn't in the air, but unlike Tyrion he would not necessarily care.

 

Lol. You're basing this on very little. 

 

I'm with shimpy on this that Tyrion's reaction had less to do with this being wrong and more to do with her reaction to him.

 

The core of Tyrion's character is that he wants to be loved and honestly the way it read to me, him acting the nice guy was a play at getting her to like him more.

 

There is also a very specific callback to Tywin when Sansa uses the word "Never" to Tyrion. 

[Lady S.]

Oh joy, another thread with a whole page of the are all Westerosi men rapists discussion, a subject that just never gets old.

[Hecate7]

I'm with shimpy on this that Tyrion's reaction had less to do with this being wrong and more to do with her reaction to him.

 

The core of Tyrion's character is that he wants to be loved and honestly the way it read to me, him acting the nice guy was a play at getting her to like him more.

If that were true, then after she said "never" he'd have gone for it, instead of climbing off the bed and promising to satisfy himself with whores instead of ever pressing Sansa to consummate the marriage. Yes, like anyone else in the world he wants to be loved, and unlike the other characters, he never will be. But he knows after that conversation that there's no hope of making her even like him. From that point, it's more a case of self respect. He's not going to rape her. No one else would blame him, no one would consider it rape, no one, not even Sansa, would know the nature of his crime. But HE would know, and so he doesn't do it--not that night, and not at any of the many numerous opportunities he has afterwards. He uses his time with Sansa to try to figure out what she wants, but is unsuccessful. He wants to be good to her, not so that she will like him, but so that he will like himself. That is the same motive Ned has for never killing a child, and for warning Cersei. It's the motive Robb has for marrying. It's the motive that Jon Snow has, for almost everything he does.

 

Lol. You're basing this on very little.

 

I'm basing it on four things. First, current research on self esteem and bullying, which shows that kids who bully actually have quite high self esteem. Second, news items, which tend to show that even nowadays celebrities, football players, and frat boys seem to do the most raping, probably because they cannot conceive of the girl being unwilling, regardless of what's going on. Third, social customs and mores in highly patriarchal countries where arranged marriages are still practiced, and the tendency to consider female consent irrelevant in pretty much every context. The same cultural norms operate in Westeros. Fourth, some life experience, which I know is cheating but it's inevitable.

 

Tyrion is able to know better than his own culture. Nice normal happy guys who benefit from the social norms don't usually see that those norms are wrong, or if they do see it, they still think it's unrealistic and silly to question or struggle against those norms. It takes a Tyrion or a Jon Snow to do that.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Hecate7

[ambi76]

Hecate7, you have a very specific positive opinion of Tyrion that not everyone will share, I think it's time to agree to disagree.

 

Tyrion is able to know better than his own culture.

 

And all some of us are saying to this is "Well, congratulations" and not "Woohoo, my hero".

 

I mean Tyrion is one of my favs too, but at the very least ADWD proved

that this might be rather undeserved ("Butbutbut 'rock bottom'" doesn't cut it for that stuff, I'm sorry.)

 

Sansa assisting in framing Tyrion for murder [...]

 

What the hell? In what meaningful way was she "assisting" in that?

As long as not told otherwise by GURM* I'm still claiming that deed for my beloved House Tyrell only (with a side dish of Baelish). * Well, he has claimed so far the Tyrells wanted to frame Sansa alone, but I'm not sure I'm buying that.

Edited October 6, 2015 by ambi76

[SeanC]

Theon and Sansa are in very similar positions. They are hand-me-down hostages handed down from their original captors to someone who actually cares about them and wants to be a friend. Everyone finds Theon's treatment of the Starks shocking and horrible. Sansa assisting in framing Tyrion for murder isn't quite as bad as what Theon did to the Starks, but it's a kind of parallel arc. It's just longer, slower, and has weird sexual tension, and so I expect by the end she will cost Tyrion the same way Theon cost Robb.

Theon was perfectly within his rights to go against the Starks; he didn't owe them anything.  Theon's crimes are those things that would be crimes even if he'd never met them, e.g., killing civilians, sexual violence in wartime, etc.  And Sansa never left her "original captors"; Tyrion merely joined up, and while he was kinder than the others (which is to say, not deliberately sadistic), their interests were never remotely aligned.  Tyrion wanted the Lannisters to win; had he learned at any point that Sansa was trying to escape, he would have stopped it.

[stillshimpy]

Then Tyrion's as raped as Sansa. He calls it "our duty."

Yes. That is actually what proves the point I just made, but prior to that he at least had a form of choice in being asked if he would marry her or should she be married off to a different Lannister. However, he actually stated that he wanted her also...but seeing as consent is something that can be withdrawn...yup. It's a violation of his rights as a person also, just far, far less so....seeing as he didn't have to have the Kingsguard threaten to drag him there in the first place.

Tyrion then details the "show" that everyone in the room puts on about making it seem he has a choice.

My first point was that I did not give Tyion hero points for refusing to rape Sansa and then my second was that books make it clear that in most of these matches, there is no true consent on the part of either party.

Out of all of the people thus far, the person to assert the right to make a choice have been Drogo (again....mind boggles, but it was an interesting inclusion) and ...Tyrion. But it does matter that he's the only person in that room who has the ability to make that choice.

Also, Sansa tries to flee and one of the Kingsguard basically tells her to be brave, because it's happening whether they carry her there kicking and screaming, or whether she walks in like a lady.

In that, she is like Lady Hornwood, because she already knows, of all the people alleged to want to marry her it is for her lands and her property, not her person. She is under no illusions about that.

 

Hecate7, you have a very specific positive opinion of Tyrion that not everyone will share, I think it's time to agree to disagree.

Boy am I ever with you on this one, ambi.

 

Oh joy, another thread with a whole page of the are all Westerosi men rapists discussion, a subject that just never gets old.

Dude, save some for me. I'm from the Unsullied threads and man alive, the equine is deceased, had time to reincarnate, DIE AGAIN of old age, natural causes and come back as the famed Zomponi.

Edited October 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

Dude, save some for me. I'm from the Unsullied threads and man alive, the equine is deceased, had time to reincarnate, DIE AGAIN of old age, natural causes and come back as the famed Zomponi.

Now, that's an appropriate image, I was only thinking a dusty skeleton horse was being beaten here.

[Mya Stone]

It's very much time to drop this subject. I've let it go on for too long. Enough.

[Delta1212]

So, on a less controversial note, is Westeros's current bout of climate change natural or man made?

Seriously, though, Westerosi winters seem fairly magical, and while the general changing of seasons seems to be a global phenomenon as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem like the rest of the world gets it remotely as bad. Obviously the northernmost plot locations in Westeros are more north than most of the stuff that we see happening in Essos, but I don't think that latitude explains the all the difference. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the White Walkers seem specifically native to Westeros in particular.

It makes me wonder whether the seasons have always been this way, or whether it was something that was done by someone, human or White Walker or both if the White Walkers have a human origin, which the thing with Craster's sons implies is at least within the realm of possibility.

Yes, that scene was "show only" but it was based at least on some hints in that direction from the book and possibly more depending on what D&D know that we don't

I keep having to remind myself that the Doom is comparatively very recent history against the cycle of the White Walkers and Winter because I keep wanting to relate the two even though the timelines don't really match.

Oh, shimpy, speaking of, a point I don't remember, did you guys ever work out what the first relief image in the opening credit sequence is?

[Triskan]

Yeah, agree, let the poor skeleton have some rest !

 

As for the climate change, to be honest, it's not one of those subjects I give a lot of second thought too. In the sense that I accept it as a magical event that will never truly be explained.

I know there are a lot of theories out there, either regarding the axe of rotation of the planet, the distance from the sun, or whatelse... but in the end, I dont think it will matter.

I dont even really think there will be a real technical magical explanation either. I just accept that winter and the walkers come along. But I'd love to be proven wrong and find that, actually there is a grand plan we are totally not aware of yet !

Edited October 6, 2015 by Triskan

[jellyroll2]

I can't recall if George said (or if it's implied in the books) that the seasons weren't always like that and became that way after the Long Night. I'm sure there could be some scientific explanation for it (consider what we've just learned about Mars and the weather there) but these seasons, and winter in particular, definitely seem magical in origin (the length, the severity, effect on geographic regions, etc).

 

Have you guys ever heard the theory that

the ghost grass the Dothraki speak of is actually snow? Or snow covered grass at least?

Under a spoiler as I can't recall if that is mentioned in the first book though I think it is.

[Delta1212]

It's actually mentioned in season 1 of the show and I don't think the books elaborate much beyond what was said there.

It's been mentioned already in the books as well, though, so either way, you're safe to talk about it.

[John Potts]

No it's clearly a lack of global warming in Westeros. What they need is a bout of industrialisation to raise the Carbon Dioxide levels and raise global temperatures - that's sure to deal with those pesky White Walkers!

[jellyroll2]

OK.

 

Yes I know they didn't do more than just sort of mention "oh yeah, winter comes and the Dothraki sea is covered in ghost grass" or something like that and then they moved on. That theory that ghost grass = snow is definitely a fan theory. But I found it intriguing. You never hear about winter being nearly as terrible in Essos as it is in Westeros. Even with them being on a similar latitude as southern Westeros for the most part, winters seem way worse in the west that it is in what we've seen of the East. And no one really mentions snow. The lands around Valyria are the "Lands of Always Summer'. So the idea that ghost grass is snow or ice is interesting.

[jellyroll2]

No it's clearly a lack of global warming in Westeros. What they need is a bout of industrialisation to raise the Carbon Dioxide levels and raise global temperatures - that's sure to deal with those pesky White Walkers!

LOL! This is also something worth talking about on a serious note. This is a planet with several millennia worth of history (or so they believe) but their lack of technology is astounding. The major road in Westeros is still a dirt trail. No one has invented gunpowder? A printing press? No one has explored and mapped the southern part of the planet? Gone past Asshai? I also love said theory that they actually were advanced (or advancing) as a civilization and then whatever cataclysm caused these crazy seasons also set them back to the stone age so to speak.

 

There's also the fact that magic existed in the world which could very well put a damper on advancing technology. Magic has really only been gone from the world for a short time (relative to the length of time of their history as they know it) and is now returning. But that can lead into a topic that won't be touched on until later so I won't go further with this part.

[Triskan]

Aaaah, how I'd love to know more about Sothoryos and the southern part of the known world and what lies beyond the Sunset Sea... 

[Holmbo]

In order to make the story work for me I sort of have to asume people are greatly exaggerating when talking about things which happened a thousand years ago. Because no way they could keep track that long.

In the reread thread for book one I complained about this and got the suggestion that perhaps it's not meant to be taken literary but more as a figure of speech meaning a long time ago.

The no progress I'm less weirded out about. As I understand it, most civilazations throughout history have thought very little of progress. Most assumed things would go on about the same it always had or that it was f getting worse. Possibly, if people were doing very well, it would go back to the earlier golden age.

I would love it if the story ended with some huge shift in the world with a change towards a new way if thinking and everything getting out of the beaten track. But I think GRRM love the world too much to do that.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Holmbo

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so of the most recent chapters I just read here's where I am: Arya has had to suffer yet another bathing and being dressed in lace, and I'm not entirely sure who the mad Hunstman is, but I'm going to take a wild guess that I'm not going to like him very much.  Although, I'm assuming that is The Hound in a cage.  Sigh.  I had really sort of hoped that The Hound and Arya didn't have a long road trip together.  

In a complete aside: I do wish that George Martin didn't have the habit of having bodies heaved into wells, dogs, people, various and sundry war victims. It's reminding me of a particularly ghoulish story I read about one of the Opium Wars where soldiers made a point of putting a decapitated head in all the wells of the villages in order to spoil them.

Ugh. Six dogs? What the fuck, story? I feel like Buffy talking to the First, "I get it. You're Evil."

The scaling of the wall has happened and Ygritte -- who is bothering me far less in the books than she did onscreen, but it is still oddly irksome -- cries because they couldn't find the horn to blow, to bring down the Wall. Oddly touching moment for Ygritte and I like the role of myth and faith in these stories.

I love that Jaime decided to try and live because Brienne told him it was craven to simply allow himself to die. There was something darkly amusing in that. That and the Qyburn (how the heck is that spelled) is skilled at stitching up stumps. Whereas I'm glad Vargo Hoat (evil, lisping, Jar-Jar ) was not rendered onscreen , that was at least a slightly amusing detail. "Yeah, work for Hoat, become a master of skin flaps. Woo."

I do think that the book does a much better job with the entire "in order to save Brienne from fighting until she's dead" he screams "Saphires!!!" after he's lost his hand. In the series he saves Brienne from assault and loses his hand, seemingly having offended Locke by insinuating that he's bribable.

I just like that it's a ploy that works because Hoat is easily lured in by the promise of a ransom and Jaime does this AFTER being mutilated. Still not quite seeing the Jaime appeal, folks, but he's becoming a character.

I wanted to feel sorry for the musician Tyrion had killed, but the guy so thoroughly brought it on himself, it was impossible to do so. Quit while you're about to make stunning levels of bank, you nitwit.

Still more covering of the "Tyrion gets that Sansa is a child" everyone is creepy levels of invested in him boinking her. I have recently become alarmed when Tywin told Tyrion to hire his wife's bedmaids because....oh....shit. Shae really is going to be Sansa's maid?

A much, much better story in the books: Shae is, in fact, a prostitute and completely unbothered by the fact that Tyrion has been married off to Sansa Stark. Shae's characterization in the Series became a bit annoying. "Oh my God, what in the world did you expect?" ...and that Tyrion is slightly stung that she cares so little.

Also, that's a fairly nice passage about how Tyrion does wish Sansa would love him....and it is mostly because he's this incredibly loved starved creature. Not that I blame her even one iota. But the chapter does detail that Tyrion is bothered by the way Sansa reacts to his body, to the extent that he no longer sleeps naked. It's just such a freaking miserable union all around.

I also like that in the books, Mace Tyrell isn't quite the buffoon he is on the Show.
 

The no progress I'm less weirded out about. As I understand it, most civilazations throughout history have thought very little of progress. Most assumed things would go on about the same it always had or that it was f getting worse. Possibly, if people were doing very well, it would go back to the earlier golden age.

Oh man, I'm about to out paramitch and myself as being perhaps the biggest geeks to ever geek, but we hung out and discussed things like how the burning of the Library at Alexandria (which I'm just going to cheat and give the wiki link to, because it gives a broad explanation that helps convey the point I'm about to make) and that there are multiple theories and views about how much that set humanity back in terms of the progress that might have been made, had it survived (even though there were almost certainly multiple fires at different times). 

That part of what impeded progress, likely in our world, and in the world that it seems Martin draws from (loosely) has been the destruction of collected knowledge multiple times.  The library at Winterfell is the thing the assassin sets afire.  Every time a place is sacked (Harrenhall, etc.)  progress is halted and reset.  

 

In the show the figure that stands in front of Bravos in the credits seems to have been based on Colossus of Rhodes and about half the places Dany visit seem to have a basis in the ancient worlds.  So I don't know that it is that these timespans aren't meant to be taken literally, but that they keep losing and having to recreate their source material.  So that someone like Bran the Builder is credit with....blah blah blah, etc. etc.   but when something is its fourth of fifth recreation, key details as to HOW get lost and progress isn't made. 

 

Plus, the book and the show make something of a point of Qyburn (???) being stripped of his chains for trying to make medical advances.   I'm sure somewhere in there Martin will eventually have some poor mathematician locked up in a tower and threatened with death unless he admits "We al live in the eyeball of a giant" or some other such:  Loosely drawn from the shit we have done over and over in the real world and that we have just created more sophisticated means of losing the ever living hell out of much of the progress we've made, here in the digital "someday, archeologists will discover the iPad that Knows Everything but even if they figure out how to power the damn thing up, some fool will click "upgrade now" and *poof* ....back to ground zero in terms of knowledge."  (I need a "clearly I am using hyperbole to make a point, but am still at least 1/8th serious).  

 

And yes -- someone with the patience of a saint and the ability to screen capture (and a penchant for doing so...) did capture the beginning image on the sphere, which I believe was a dragon...and was said to be the doom of Valyeria? 

 

Also, Tywin had Tyrion have just referred to someone setting off on some fools quest to Valeryia and something about the Doom....and someone else three hundred years later going off to try and fetch back a sword lost then (and I'm figuring that was some key detail that will will be all "Oooooooh, pull that sword from the stone...Tyrion, or Arya or....whomever....maybe Jaime's disembodied hand!"  

Edited October 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Well, your next chapter (Sam if I'm correct) is really great ! Looking forward to you reading it ! :)

 

True Mace is a little bit more of a credible character in the books, but actually, I dont mind show!Mace bringing his goofy attitude around ! ^^

[Delta1212]

Mace is seen as somewhat buffoonish by a lot of people and the show really amped that perspective of the character up to 11.

[chandraReborn]

Yeah, book Mace is kind of vain and easily flattered, but he's still averagely competent. 

[ambi76]

Ah the dogs thing. GRRM is as big a dog lover as you shimpy, hence he likes to use the hurting dogs as ultimate evil thing so much.

 

Funny you find book!Ygritte slightly less annoying. I think for many sullied it was the other way round (but yeah both somewhat irksome).

 

Still not quite seeing the Jaime appeal, folks, but he's becoming a character.

 

Oh, we are getting there, shimpy, we are getting there. Slowly.

 

Yeah, they married life of Tyrion Lannister is less then bliss. A bit.

 

Mace is a braggart, a stage Dad, and vain, but he is not a total idiot. And while his antics may be "funny" on the show, they are kinda dragging House Tyrell down to joke level as a whole at this point, yes, even the "formidable women". Why would someone like Olenna even put up with that shit?

Edited October 6, 2015 by ambi76

[jellyroll2]

Yeah, Mace isn't as moronic in the books. He is somewhat capable. They gave his generally grasping qualities to his mother and just made her even more so than she is in the books. LOL

 

Shimpy, you were not a fan of Arya & the Hound on a road trip? Did you think that was show only? Or do you just hope it's shorter than it was in the show?

 

Ygritte, while I love her for what she meant to Jon, irked me in both book and show. I think she may have irked me just slightly more in the show despite how much I loved Rose Leslie's portrayal.

 

Jaime's characterization is definitely something builds over time. Talk about your character development. It'll take further reading to see how he climbed to the top of a lot of peoples' favorite character list. See, when we talk about changes in the show from the book that seem unnecessary? The same way Brienne got Jaime to sort of snap out of it, deciding not to die because it was a coward's way out? That was terrific in the book. Why in the show they felt the need to have her say he was "as weak as a woman" I will never know. Book!Brienne would never say something like that. She is very well aware that she is a woman despite bearing weapons like a man, a thing I don't think they display often enough in the show.  

 

And you spelled Qyburn right. LOL

 

And see I truly do think they've progressed and just lost a lot of the information to destruction, wars and just general stupidity of humans. I think shimpy is spot on with the "collection of knowledge being destroyed multiple times" thing. Look at how no one can recreate Valyrian steel or know how the Valyrians built their roads once Valyria was destroyed. There was probably a shit ton of stuff about the White Walkers and the Long Night in the library at Winterfell but after the sacking? Lost to history.

 

Some of what she just mentioned we can't really touch on because it's from things like the world book, not the novels. But yes, places that Dany's been or places that are mentioned in the books still seem more advanced than Westeros but there is just no knowing what's happening there because no one brings this information back to anyone else. Or by the time they do, it's irrelevant and no longer the case. Or they've had their own war or event that ruined everything and they're back at the reset factory settings themselves. (I love that iPad metaphor btw).

 

Did the Unsullied not know what was being shown in the orbiting sun during the credits?

Edited October 6, 2015 by jellyroll2

[Haleth]

Speaking for myself, I'm not a Jaime fan but Nick Coster Waldau is dreamy.

[nksarmi]

I clearly need to analyze the credits more lol.

 

And Jamie is by far NOT my favorite character, but I do think he is the character who has grown the most over the course of the books.  Now grant it, that is likely because he's pretty far down at the bottom of the barrel when we meet him, but still - loads of growth going on with him.

[Hecate7]

What the hell? In what meaningful way was she "assisting" in that?

As long as not told otherwise by GURM* I'm still claiming that deed for my beloved House Tyrell only (with a side dish of Baelish). * Well, he has claimed so far the Tyrells wanted to frame Sansa alone, but I'm not sure I'm buying that.

 

 

 

I hate

Tyrion in ADWD,

too. On the show, Sansa assisted in framing Tyrion by wearing the necklace and fleeing when she was supposed to, and not giving another thought to the whole business after talking to Baelish. True there's not a lot she could do...oh, wait, yes there is.

She could send a raven from the Vale telling Pycelle or Varys what she knows, because at this point she knows that Baelish and the Tyrells killed Joffrey and that Baelish and Lysa killed Jon Arryn. She knows that the Lannisters are innocent of that murder even if they are guilty of everything else. She won't, though, because 1) she hates the Lannisters, and 2) she is busy hiding. 3) She feels an obligation of gratitude to Baelish. But she wouldn't have to come out of hiding to do it. In fact she could write it as if it were Lysa Arryn's confession.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Hecate7

[WindyNights]

LOL! This is also something worth talking about on a serious note. This is a planet with several millennia worth of history (or so they believe) but their lack of technology is astounding. The major road in Westeros is still a dirt trail. No one has invented gunpowder? A printing press? No one has explored and mapped the southern part of the planet? Gone past Asshai? I also love said theory that they actually were advanced (or advancing) as a civilization and then whatever cataclysm caused these crazy seasons also set them back to the stone age so to speak.

There's also the fact that magic existed in the world which could very well put a damper on advancing technology. Magic has really only been gone from the world for a short time (relative to the length of time of their history as they know it) and is now returning. But that can lead into a topic that won't be touched on until later so I won't go further with this part.

I think I remember GRRM saying that they lack some of the ingredients for gunpowder or something.

[SeanC]

The show's take on Mace just bugs me.  He's not funny, and he's so cartoonish that he undermines the whole Tyrell faction.

Edited October 7, 2015 by SeanC

[magdalene]

This is the point when I started to like Jaime as a human being. In his first POV chapter I was glad that he got a POV because I had found him intriguing in the dungeon with Cat but I didn't exactly think, "oh Jaime, what a card, secretly filled with the milk of human kindness". I thought him an interesting asshole and I already liked him better as a character than I ever liked Ned or Robb. But after the hand gets chopped off Jaime's mask of snark and swagger is disabled and we start seeing what's inside the king slayer and the sister fucker. This is a man who is at the low point of his life, he lost his precious sword hand, he is humiliated, feverish and in pain. A lot of people would not be at their best under those circumstances. Or spare concern for anybody else. But Jaime tries to help his fellow captive, saving her from rape and death with his quick thinking. This woman who he was at odds with before they were captured, who was his enemy,  this woman who is not a family member, not of his house and he is a man who clearly only has cared for his own, for people named Lannister before this. So Jaime expanding his circle of caring to include Brienne of Tarth is a big deal. And I realized reading this that Martin was giving me a classic heel turn - and I love a well written heel turn.

 

About Vargo Hoat - I think he is a much better, more colorful villain that what we are given on the show. He is an example of what I like to call pathetic evil. I also like the irony of this pathetic creature taking the sword hand of Jaime Lannister.  And I like that Vargo Hoat shows us Jaime's humanity 

even with his brutal end - Jaime being horrified about the way Tywan has his mutilator Vargo Hoat killed.

[Lady S.]

Also, Tywin had Tyrion have just referred to someone setting off on some fools quest to Valeryia and something about the Doom....and someone else three hundred years later going off to try and fetch back a sword lost then (and I'm figuring that was some key detail that will will be all "Oooooooh, pull that sword from the stone...Tyrion, or Arya or....whomever....maybe Jaime's disembodied hand!"

Looking at the awoiaf chapter summary, the other thing going on in that Tyrion chapter was them finding out Lord Mormont is MIA and presumed dead. Any thought on Tywin/Pycelle's endorsement of Janos Slynt as his successor?

Jaime's characterization is definitely something builds over time. Talk about your character development. It'll take further reading to see how he climbed to the top of a lot of peoples' favorite character list. See, when we talk about changes in the show from the book that seem unnecessary? The same way Brienne got Jaime to sort of snap out of it, deciding not to die because it was a coward's way out? That was terrific in the book. Why in the show they felt the need to have her say he was "as weak as a woman" I will never know. Book!Brienne would never say something like that. She is very well aware that she is a woman despite bearing weapons like a man, a thing I don't think they display often enough in the show.

What makes it really annoying is that tv Bri does call him a coward, he just doesn't respond. And he says he doesn't care about revenge. Book Jaime reminds himself to live for Cersei, for Tyrion, and for vengeance, while tv Jaime just doesn't want to "sound like a bloody woman". Edited October 7, 2015 by Lady S.

[mac123x]

Funny you find book!Ygritte slightly less annoying. I think for many sullied it was the other way round (but yeah both somewhat irksome).

 

That's how I felt.  Rose Leslie gave her warmth that was lacking in the written word.  She seemed to genuinely care for Jon, so the continual "YKNJS" seemed like friendly teasing instead of degrading mockery.  Season 3 at least.  Show!Ygrtte became such a stereotypical Woman Scorned in season 4 that I was glad when she died.

 

I'm looking forward to shimpy's comparison of Book vs Show for the bathtub scene.