Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Triskan]

Mel saying it was a great moment for me ! 

 

Laughed so hard... as much as I was freaked out ! ^^ 

Glad they kept it in the show. 

[magdalene]

I always liked the "You know nothing, Jon Snow" remarks.  Because I like to imagine Martin giggling when he writes this and having fun with Jon's ignorance about his "destiny" , and having kind of a wink, wink  moment with his readership at the same time.

[nksarmi]

Mel saying it was a great moment for me ! 

 

Laughed so hard... as much as I was freaked out ! ^^ 

Glad they kept it in the show. 

 

The delivery on the show SO freaked me out.  I think it has something to do with the actress looking at Jon Snow like she wants to devour him.  If I didn't really, truly believe he's the Prince that was Promised - I'd seriously worry she's going to pull a praying mantis on him.

Edited September 18, 2015 by nksarmi

[John Potts]

What gets me is how upper class Rose Leslie is!

 

Also, on the whole Robb/Edward IV parallels, it could be said his marriage did wreck the Yorkist cause - just not right away. By marrying Elizabeth Woodville he created a divide in the Yorkist camp that led to Richard III usurping his nephew Edward V, which in turn led to his defeat by Henry VII at Bosworth. Robb's marriage just led more immediately (and more directly) to his doom

 

chandraReborn Basically, I think Tywin takes credit for a lot more than he actually does

 

Not to sound like a total Tywin apologist (again!), but I think you sell him short by saying he "Got lucky". He put Littlefinger & Varys in power (well, left Varys in power in his case) so he should get the credit, just as he gets the credit (or blame) for the Mountain killing off the Royal family (or most of them, anyway)

[WindyNights]

He didn't put LF in power. He told Tyrion to chop off the heads of whoever was playing them for fools and then "Tyrion" left him in power. But that also proves as a mistake later on considering the fact that he stole Sansa and helped kill Joff off which led to Tyrion turning against them.

LF ran circles around Tywin.

Stannis had the right idea. The best thing to do was scourge that court clean.

Edited September 19, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Okay, ambi, I actually went back and checked the Loras passage in the Tyrion chapter to see if I'd missed anything.  There's a couple of things: One is that I walked into this with the knowledge that Loras loved Renly dearly (also, thanks for the deleted clip, it was fun to see what the show did with the "antlered helm"...which is one of Martin's more amusing mistakes, having people with things stick a full foot off of the top of their helmets, the costumers managed to downgrade the silliness a bit).   So that's part of the reason the passage didn't stand out to me. 

 

Although making Loras some composite catch-all character for all thiings Tyrell really ended up insulting his relationship with Renly (show Loras is one of the bigger horndogs around) , before they did that, they made it clear:  Renly was the love of Loras life.  

 

I will say that I'm genuinely surprised that there's a book reader around that didn't catch on that they were a couple.  Loras as much as says his heart is broken forever and his love is dead.  He fought in Renly's armor.  It's not subtle stuff.  

 

Two more things before I get to the Jon chapter:  Haleth, honestly, I'm not actually searching for historical match-ups, I just know enough about history to know why "so and so was based and this and this" is not particularly appropriate when it's being brought up by someone else.  Whereas Robert Baratheon is so much of a match for Edward IV, it's an easy one to spot, and people like Margaery Tyrell have easily spotted "what would happen if you just made one character out of the various queens in (primarily) Tudor times?  You'd get Margaery and her grandmother to boot!"  but nothing is so direct as to be "Ha, she could pass for...."  It's interesting to read a fan theory about "it was probably at least partially drawn from this...."  and sometimes it's easy to see the fit at other times it's really only fits in the "Well, in that everyone involved had the same number of limbs between the lot of them....sure."

 

Onward:  Show Shae vs. Book Shae:   Well, I can understand why they wanted to make her an actual character, if not the hooker with a heart of gold, then at least the hooker with a heart that could be broken.  Reducing any woman to a bunch of willing and manipulative parts isn't going to work or play well onscreen.  Not that they've overly concerned themselves with that in other depictions, I think they just didn't want to take up so much of Peter Dinklage's time onscreen being led around by his nether regions when it came to this person.   But book Tyrion isn't just in lust, he does seem to love Shae, even if he keeps a much clearer head about what her feelings for him likely are.   Show Shae became the world's most annoying character when she kept bellowing, in anger no less, that she was only Tyrion's paid companion....because dude?  He hired her.  She was there for it.  It was initially a business arrangement and then Show Shae spent her time being furious that that was the case.   It was odd. 

 

However, if the book storyline plays out the same with Tywin's eventual end (not asking to be told either way) then I can understand why the show felt the need to have it be "....and then they fell in love" when/if Tyrion kills her for being in Tywin's employ next.  Otherwise it really would come off as being misogynistic "How dare you ....continue to work as a prostitute when I fired you and told you to get lost....die!"  whereas in the show, if it is a deep emotional betrayal, Tyrion's heartbreak over it all makes more sense. 

 

So I've read the Jon chapter and again, what strikes me over and over is how much more there is to the Wildlings.  Hundreds of giants.  Thorumund's stories are hilariously disturbing, but also meant to be spotted as big, blowing tales.  Everyone singing and the sense of community was touching also.  I get, as always, "hey, there was no way that anything other than a feature film with millions upon millions could render this properly" budget rules the day, but the Wildlings in the show and the book have barely met in terms of similarities.  In the show they are unbathed bumpkins who it makes no sense that they think they can take on an Army of armed men. 

 

In the book, Mance isn't stupidly trusting of Jon and Ygritte isn't coming off as being fully annoying.  There's more to her and as for her dogged pursuit of Jon's virginity, it makes at least a little sense.  He's sort of exotic to her.  He did spare her life.  She doesn't seem to just be fooling herself about him for reasons that have only to do with wanting to screw him.  That said: 

 

 

 

t was quite grating. When Jon showed some ignorance about Wildling culture, she'd make fun of him.  When she showed ignorance about the Seven Kingdoms and he corrected her, she'd still make fun of him for it.  She came across as a self-absorbed, rigid jingoist:  the Wildling way is the only way and everything else is crap.

It was a little better in the show, since Rose Leslie gave it a "good-natured teasing" lilt to it.  And she didn't say it nearly as often.

 

It's interesting because Book Ygritte isn't anywhere near as annoying thus far.  Although it's still a little startling that she is just pursuing him, it actually makes some sense in that she comes from a people who apparently have sex by force/rape as a way of life.   Finding a guy who has to be coaxed into doing the deed must have been like the Holy Grail of Booty Calls for her.  

 

So I take it the Thenns are not the cannibals in the show?  People of the ice rivers are?  Also, are shadowcats presumed to be Siberian Tigers, essentially?  They spoke of their striped skins.  Varamyr Sixskins is a character it is a pity they lost (although riding a bear is yet another "good luck, production!" issue) in favor of the spiteful human version of Orell, but I can also understand why it would have been nigh on impossible to have that Eagle be a character.  

 

I'm sure by now you can all guess what I want to have happen to the woman with the dog murder fetish.  

Edited September 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Book Ygritte is still annoying but not quite as much as when I first read it, since I can hear Rose Leslie's voice now.  (But I'm still not unhappy that she dies.)

[stillshimpy]

By the way, that Sansa chapter was just plain old painful to read, knowing that they are setting her up to marry Tyrion.  

[ambi76]

By the way, that Sansa chapter was just plain old painful to read, knowing that they are setting her up to marry Tyrion.

 

Gah. She's just so damn happy about that new dress.

 

About Tyrion/Shae:

 

Yeah, in the books it's Tyrion that is kinda sad this doesn't turn into Pretty Woman and on the show for some reason they made Shae outraged that this doesn't turn into Pretty Woman.

 

When you're done maybe we can go through the list of Renly/Loras hints and I can tell you the ususal excuses people have why they didn't catch that one or why this one doesn't even count.

Edited September 19, 2015 by ambi76

[Triskan]

Glad you appreciated the book-Free Folk, shimpy ! They are really a colorful, both intimidating and hilarous bunch !

 

Also, are shadowcats presumed to be Siberian Tigers, essentially?

 

 

I've read the first books in French and they were translated as "lynxes" in it, so that's what they are for me ! ^^

Edited September 19, 2015 by Triskan

[stillshimpy]

When you're done maybe we can go through the list of Renly/Loras hints and I can tell you the ususal excuses people have why they didn't catch that one or why this one doesn't even count.

 

It seems such an odd thing for people to want to disprove, but okay.  I mean, presumably George Martin has confirmed, "Yeah, they were a couple.  Did you not get that?"   In the first book, I can see not getting it.  By the second book, there's just no damn way to decide it isn't there, even if someone was bafflingly wedded to the notion that they weren't a couple: Stannis states that Margaery is not likely to get knocked up in his bed and even in the first book, Renly takes off with Loras when they leave Kings Landing.  

 

But if for some reason someone was just bound and determined to believe that Renly wasn't gay -- because since he's dead and the references, while pointed, were only two or three things -- I guess someone might be able to claim "it's closer to subtext with Renly, with one instance of outright "Nope, that's now textual."  Although, I really call bull on the "Marin says he didn't think about Renly being gay when he had the Rainbow Guard" presumably someone pointed it out to him between books two and three, since Jaime calls Brienne's attention to the whole "Seroiusly?  The Rainbow Guard?  Did you guys have Pride Parades, because that's an overt statement if ever there was one."  

 

By the time Sansa is walking with Loras and he shuts down like a bank vault and is colder than hell to her after she brings up Renly....and then outright tells Tyrion that he doesn't care about not being able to get married because the sun has already set on that....how does anyone discount those two?  I'm not foolish, I get that there are people who are still going to have very unpleasant reasons for refusing to believe it, but if the evidence had already mounted there has to be this:  This show was made with George R. R. Martin consulting, contributing and even writing for it so it's not even a matter of debate as to "Why did the show make Renly and Loras gay?" if someone was still of a mind to pretend they weren't, there went the last way possible:  The freaking creator of the story was part of making the series and the characters are gay and together. 

 

What a weird thing to continue to debate or deny after that.  

[Delta1212]

Yeah, it's a shame they left out Varamyr for a lot of reasons, but I can understand how bear cavalry might not have been in the budget.

[Lady S.]

 

What a weird thing to continue to debate or deny after that.  

I mean, not to knock all fantasy/sci-fi geeks (I grew up with one for a father), but it is traditionally considered a (straight) male domain, and I think it's a more recent phenomenon to have an inclusive cast of characters. The fact that Renly and Loras aren't reduced to gay stereotypes in the books must have only confused the homophobes more. A tough guy knight who just happens to have sex with another man is somehow less easy to understand for some people than Loras and Renly just having a very close hetero bromance. The Stannis remark is what stands out to me, since Stannis is too humorless and bent on logic to tease his little brother about not being into chicks if he didn't know for a fact that that was true, but I don't remember even taking note of that on my first read, there's so many better lines in that scene. Of course, after Renly's dead, the truth really starts piling on, and that's where the serious denial must kick in. 

 

As for shadowcats, turns out they're just a fictional creature. Here's an illustration.

[Kadomony]

Onward: Show Shae vs. Book Shae: Well, I can understand why they wanted to make her an actual character, if not the hooker with a heart of gold, then at least the hooker with a heart that could be broken. Reducing any woman to a bunch of willing and manipulative parts isn't going to work or play well onscreen. Not that they've overly concerned themselves with that in other depictions, I think they just didn't want to take up so much of Peter Dinklage's time onscreen being led around by his nether regions when it came to this person. But book Tyrion isn't just in lust, he does seem to love Shae, even if he keeps a much clearer head about what her feelings for him likely are. Show Shae became the world's most annoying character when she kept bellowing, in anger no less, that she was only Tyrion's paid companion....because dude? He hired her. She was there for it. It was initially a business arrangement and then Show Shae spent her time being furious that that was the case. It was odd.

However, if the book storyline plays out the same with Tywin's eventual end (not asking to be told either way) then I can understand why the show felt the need to have it be "....and then they fell in love" when/if Tyrion kills her for being in Tywin's employ next. Otherwise it really would come off as being misogynistic "How dare you ....continue to work as a prostitute when I fired you and told you to get lost....die!" whereas in the show, if it is a deep emotional betrayal, Tyrion's heartbreak over it all makes more sense.

Keep in mind that Tyrion is absolutely a misogynist in the books. The whitewashing of his misogyny is one of the big complaints book readers have of the character adaptation. And when we see Shae through Tyrion's eyes, we see her as filtered through his misogyny.

[Protar]

Keep in mind that Tyrion is absolutely a misogynist in the books. The whitewashing of his misogyny is one of the big complaints book readers have of the character adaptation. And when we see Shae through Tyrion's eyes, we see her as filtered through his misogyny.

 

Indeed. There's a big difference between a sexist character and a sexist narrative. I would say that whitewashing Tyrion ends up in a much more sexist narrative because in the show Shae is not just a prostitute doing her job - she genuinely grows to have feelings for Tyrion. That makes her betrayal very much a cliche woman scorned kind of thing as opposed to Tyrion just being messed up.

[Delta1212]

Also, re: Stannis's comment to Renly about Margaery remaining a virgin in his bed, when I first read it, I didn't take it as a comment about him being gay (truthful or just as an insult) but rather as a swipe at Renly's sexual prowess ("You wouldn't know what to do in bed"). That seems like a common enough thing for an older brother who had reason to be particularly pissed to say, so I didn't think much of it.

And a lot of the hints are like that. They are statements that seem to have valid alternate interpretations or just odd unexplained non sequiturs. Taken all together, it's quite obvious what is going on, but on an individual basis, most of them, especially early on in the series, aren't enough to necessarily clue anyone in, and if you've forgotten all about the last hint because it didn't seem all that important by the time you get to the next one, it gets a lot harder to put two and two together.

There is a lot of that "just subtle enough that it doesn't scream at you if you aren't thinking about it too hard and just far enough apart that you've forgotten the last one by the time you get to the next one" type of clue in the series, which is why once you're clued in to what they mean, it's kind of bewildering that anyone could miss it.

In truth, most people just weren't paying that close of attention because they didn't know it was important or meaningful.

Of course, continuing to deny it once you've been clued in is a whole 'nother thing.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Delta1212

[ambi76]

What a weird thing to continue to debate or deny after that.

 

What Lady S. said plus people also get very defensive when proven wrong/clueless. So suddenly all the hints are lies, jokes, don't make any sense or something like that. The worst offenders then say D&D forced GRRM to claim Loras and Renly as gay retroactively for the show because Hollywood's liberal agenda or something.

 

So, yeah, 

I get that there are people who are still going to have very unpleasant reasons for refusing to believe it

that too.

Edited September 19, 2015 by ambi76

[John Potts]

WindyNights He didn't put LF in power. He told Tyrion to chop off the heads of whoever was playing them for fools and then "Tyrion" left him in power

 

If Littlefinger's treachery is Tywin's fault, surely he also deserves the credit for his successes (eg. bringing in the Tyrells, which he surely had a hand in given he turned up with their army) and if Tyrion's rule in King's Landing was a success, surely Tywin deserves some credit for appointing him in the first place? OK, you can say he should only get the credit for the actions he directly, but in that case he bears no responsibility for the Red Wedding (since no Lannisters were involved) or the Battle of the Whispering Wood (since he was commanding the other army). But I'd say that the guy at the top is responsible for the successes and failiures of their faction (OK, technically the ruler of the Lannisters would be King Joffrey, but only a fool would say Tywin takes orders from him).

 

Incidentally (and I don't know if this was intentional on GRRM's part), I realised that one clue to the Bolton's treachery is that Bolton is in Lancashire so he was always on the "wrong" side in fighting for the Starks (in fact, there was a Baron Scrope of Bolton in the Wars of the Roses, and he did switch sides).

[chandraReborn]

Yeah. For someone who professes to care about "cripples, bastards, and broken things," Tyrion has very little empathy for any women who might fall into these catagories. Lollys is a big example of this. We rarely see her outside his POV, but in Clash, Sansa encounters her on the bridge to the Keep, and is very kind and sympathetic to her. 

I actually think the big importance of Penny in Book Five is to force Tyrion to confront this flaw of his.

[SeanC]

If Littlefinger's treachery is Tywin's fault, surely he also deserves the credit for his successes (eg. bringing in the Tyrells, which he surely had a hand in given he turned up with their army) and if Tyrion's rule in King's Landing was a success, surely Tywin deserves some credit for appointing him in the first place? OK, you can say he should only get the credit for the actions he directly, but in that case he bears no responsibility for the Red Wedding (since no Lannisters were involved) or the Battle of the Whispering Wood (since he was commanding the other army). But I'd say that the guy at the top is responsible for the successes and failiures of their faction (OK, technically the ruler of the Lannisters would be King Joffrey, but only a fool would say Tywin takes orders from him).

Tywin directly planned the Red Wedding, though.  He had no involvement in Littlefinger's various activities on the Crown's behalf, beyond not ordering him removed, and Littlefinger played him expertly once he actually got to King's Landing, getting everything he wanted out of Tywin.

 

Gah. She's just so damn happy about that new dress.

One of the things that most infuriated me about how the show handled Sansa's story in season 3 was how, for the most part, the enagement to Loras was treated as something the audience should laugh at her for.  The second Sansa chapter in ASOS shows her in a bit of a happy cloud, since after being abused for so long she thinks she's finally found friends and will be getting out, but there's a pervasive sadness to the whole thing -- like her dreams of having children that all look like her believed-dead siblings; or when, on it being suggested that the Tyrells are mainly interested in her claim, she hopes that even if that is the case she can make Willas love her anyway -- that is almost entirely absent from the show.  The show is mostly interested in "tee hee, Sansa likes Loras and doesn't realize that he's flamingly gay", and that also played into a lot of viewers thinking that Tyrion was a better option for her since he was actually into women.

 

And it's not like a Sansa/Loras engagement couldn't have worked as a dramatic choice, in my opinion.  For instance, have Loras be honest with Sansa about his preferences, but that they can get married anyway for mutual self-interest -- Sansa can mourn the loss of a romantic dream, but be practical and accept that it's still way better than where she is, and talk about her dream of children; this could even be a vehicle for Loras to talk about the loss of Renly.  That could have been a strong scene for both characters.

Edited September 19, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Well in Tyrion's defense, his mother is dead and his sister is Cersei.  His view of women is going to be f-ed up from the word go.  My problem is that I watched a couple of seasons, took a long break and read all the books, and then watched seasons three through five.  So Peter D is my first impression of Tyrion and I came at the character wanting to overlook his less pleasant moments.  I think the show has done a great job of boosting him up to take on a more "good guy" role - which I think was needed when they dropped or changed so many of the other characters.  I mean just look at what they did to Loras.  In absence of the book version of Loras and many other characters, they needed to whitewash Tyrion to give people someone other than Jon and Dany to cheer for.

[John Potts]

The "Loras is Gay?" is weird (admittedly, I think I saw him onscreen before reading about him, which may well have moulded my opinion of him) but the portrayal of him as being all "Boobs? Ewww!" is completely unbelievable. Even the gayest of English Kings (Edward II and James I) managed to choke down their personal preferences to produce an heir, even if they did prefer the company of men (in fact, each produced more surviving offspring than the decidedly virile Henry VIII did in 6 marriages!)

Edited September 19, 2015 by John Potts

[chandraReborn]

I disagree that Tyrion "needed" whitewashing for the show to get views. How many popular TV shows have had male antiheroes? No one watched Breaking Bad because Walter White was such a stand-up guy. Every choice made with his character just baffles me. 

[stillshimpy]

The "Loras is Gay?" is weird (admittedly, I think I saw him onscreen before reading about him, which may well have moulded my opinion of him) but the portrayal of him as being all "Boobs? Ewww!" is completely unbelievable.

 

Agreed.  It went beyond the "what a borderline-offensive treatment of sexual orientation, what the hell?"  because there was no "borderline" to that....but I am starting to understand why the Show handled it in such a manner, since there has been debate in fandom. 

 

Apparently the Show (I'm only capitalizing to mark the difference between book and show, by the way...it helps keep it straight in my own head) wanted to leave no doubt behind:  This man, is GAY.   No wiggle room on the interpretation, deal with it.   Unfortunately they went so far into the land of "What the....?  Newsflash, plenty of gay men have been able to do the deed for duty and the future of a country and hardly any of them nearly pass out or puke at the sight of breasts, they just aren't persuaded to lust by breasts."  

 

I guess I might more easily buy the "some folks argue that Stannis was trash talking his bro...." if Stannis had been shown to be humanly capable of ever joking around about pretty much anything.  He's on the verge of murdering his brother for a claim to the throne, I really don't think it's reasonable to argue, "Yeah, well I thought it was just siblings being siblings.   You know, 'you smell funny' 'yeah well, you wouldn't know what to do with a naked girl if she tripped and fell on top of you' just wasn't going to be coming from Stannis in that situation.  From Renly?  Sure.  Absolutely, hence the peach stuff.  

 

But out of the two one of them knows, "I'm going to stoop to black arts and witchcraft and cold blooded murder your ass over this and you'll have no way of defending yourself, at all."  If Stannis were to have ever engaged in some sibling trash talk, that would not have been the moment.  

 

Thanks for the shadowcat illustration, Lady S.  At first I was thinking Puma/Mountain Lion, but in the last chapter stripes were mentioned so I started to wonder if I was thinking way too small and Martin was talking about Siberian Tigers (Westerosi Editions)

Edited September 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

He's on the verge of murdering his brother for a claim to the throne, I really don't think it's reasonable to argue, "Yeah, well I thought it was just siblings being siblings. You know, 'you smell funny' 'yeah well, you wouldn't know what to do with a naked girl if she tripped and fell on top of you' just wasn't going to be coming from Stannis in that situation. From Renly? Sure. Absolutely, hence the peach stuff.

Which would be absolutely true, had I known Stannis was about to murder his brother when I first read that line. As it was, I didn't know exactly where things were headed and I'd only had two chapters, including the prologue, with Stannis. His personality was certainly present, but it's not like I'd spent much time analyzing it to determine what was and wasn't out of character. I'd only "met" him a day or two earlier (I read Clash pretty quickly), so for all I knew that's just how he related to his brother.

[WindyNights]

Agreed. It went beyond the "what a borderline-offensive treatment of sexual orientation, what the hell?" because there was no "borderline" to that....but I am starting to understand why the Show handled it in such a manner, since there has been debate in fandom.

Apparently the Show (I'm only capitalizing to mark the difference between book and show, by the way...it helps keep it straight in my own head) wanted to leave no doubt behind: This man, is GAY. No wiggle room on the interpretation, deal with it. Unfortunately they went so far into the land of "What the....? Newsflash, plenty of gay men have been able to do the deed for duty and the future of a country and hardly any of them nearly pass out or puke at the sight of breasts, they just aren't persuaded to lust by breasts."

I guess I might more easily buy the "some folks argue that Stannis was trash talking his bro...." if Stannis had been shown to be humanly capable of ever joking around about pretty much anything. He's on the verge of murdering his brother for a claim to the throne, I really don't think it's reasonable to argue, "Yeah, well I thought it was just siblings being siblings. You know, 'you smell funny' 'yeah well, you wouldn't know what to do with a naked girl if she tripped and fell on top of you' just wasn't going to be coming from Stannis in that situation. From Renly? Sure. Absolutely, hence the peach stuff.

But out of the two one of them knows, "I'm going to stoop to black arts and witchcraft and cold blooded murder your ass over this and you'll have no way of defending yourself, at all." If Stannis were to have ever engaged in some sibling trash talk, that would not have been the moment.

Thanks for the shadowcat illustration, Lady S. At first I was thinking Puma/Mountain Lion, but in the last chapter stripes were mentioned so I started to wonder if I was thinking way too small and Martin was talking about Siberian Tigers (Westerosi Editions)

There's actually quite a bit of evidence that Stannis didn't consciously choose to murder Renly. He certainly doesn't know about the shadowbaby.

Also, help, guys but how do I put thing in spoilers?

Edited September 20, 2015 by WindyNights

[nksarmi]

I disagree that Tyrion "needed" whitewashing for the show to get views. How many popular TV shows have had male antiheroes? No one watched Breaking Bad because Walter White was such a stand-up guy. Every choice made with his character just baffles me. 

I disagree, but most of my reasons why Tyrion probably benefited from D&D's choices - shimpy hasn't gotten to yet, so let's table that for later.

[Which Tyler]

Shimpy - I think you're still having difficulty in realising how much prior knowledge, and analysing you are doing compared to most people who are just reading a book.

 

You've taken 16(?) weeks to get this far, with knowledge of who the characters all are, what they're like, and are spending time dissecting the book section by section, with people who are already familiar with all the theories.

 

Imagine just how much you might miss if you had none of that prior knowledge that makes that small clue leap off the page, and that large clue utterly irrelevant as it goes nowhere; had read the same 3,000 pages in 3 weeks instead; had no-one to analyse with (including yourself); still struggled to remember the name of such-and-such, let alone details of his character that we haven't necessarily been exposed to yet.

 

 

For most of us, we simply didn't pick up that Renly&Loras were gay, or that there were questions about Jon's parentage or... We would then reread taking our time, or join fan communities and see the theories and evidence, and have it make sense. Of course there are those who will deny the evidence even once presented, but then, there are people that deny climate change, evolution or the shape of this planet.

[Delta1212]

That's actually another good point. You wind up with a lot more mental energy to focus on background details and hints when you already know who everyone is and what they are doing. A first-time, blind read-through soaks up a ton of attention just trying to keep all of the characters straight and focusing on the things that seem important to the plot.

Like I said, it wasn't until Theon got his own chapters in Clash that I even realized that Theon Greyjoy and the Greatjon were separate characters. Knowing who most people are and roughly what is going on (and I'm finding this as I re-read passages as well) makes it monumentally easier to pay attention to side details.

That said, rereading stuff now means I totally get the impulse to question "How the heck did anyone miss that?" because a lot of things seem so much clearer this go-around. I really think a lot of it is down to having to keep track of so much more unfamiliar information, and especially when you don't know what is or isn't important, it's easy to lose track of details that are, in fact, important because you were putting more emphasis on other things at the time.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Delta1212

[vibeology]

Its very true. There are so many names and so many people that keeping everyone straight was so hard my first read through. I only put together that Lord Mormont and Jorah were father and son when Lord Mormont gave Jon Longclaw even though the have the same family name. I struggled with who's who in the Kingsguard the whole first book, all of the Northern Lords who weren't The Greatjon and Roose Bolton totally blended into a mass and getting a handle on the Targareyn family history took getting through all the books that were out at the time (the first three) and a re-read. 

 

I knew Jon's parentage was something of an issue because of the line in the first book where Ned feels shame about Jon and the bed of blood thing, but it took a reread to connect that with Rhaegar and the Queen of Love and Beauty. I read these when I was in high school so some time around 2001-2002 and I didn't know anyone else reading them at the time. I'm sure if I'd gone looking I would have found people online talking about them, but I didn't use the internet the same way I do now. I missed things I would have figured out if I'd been talking to people and I developed theories and ways of remembering characters that have been disproven by the later books. 

 

There is so much information coming at you the first time you read these books and so many mysteries that you tend to fixate on some things and miss others until you have a chance to go back and look over things again. With TV its a little easier because you get visuals that you don't get in the book, plus the economy of TV means fewer characters, plots that are somewhat scaled back and someone overseeing the story always thinking about how to catch new viewers up even if they start watching partway in.

[Haleth]

Ugh, I've said it before that it's really offensive the way Loras is treated in the show.  In the book his sexuality is part of his character but doesn't define him.  His more important qualities are his skill, his loyalty to loved ones, his bravery.  The fact that he is gay is not important and having Sansa fall for him isn't treated as a joke.

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy - I think you're still having difficulty in realising how much prior knowledge, and analysing you are doing compared to most people who are just reading a book.

 

Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that Which Tyler, but I thought you guys were saying that there are people in a fandom organized around these books that still debate "Renly was not gay and neither was Loras".   On a first read through, my god, there'd be no way to keep all this stuff straight, but fandoms are generally formed around people discussing tiny details over and over again.  I've been part of them, you've been part of ones too.  

 

I'm not saying, "Pffft.  How did anyone miss that?"  because GOOD GAWD....there'd be no way to keep most of this stuff straight.  By the time someone has completed multiple re-reads?  Yeah, that's what I'm talking about in the "How in the world does anyone still argue that?"  

 

So I'm absolutely not saying that people should have picked up on it, just that there's no way to keep arguing it after evidence starts to mount and y'all talked about it, presumably for years before the books ever hit the screens.  I'm saying, "Seriously?  You guys had a decade to parse this out, didn't you?  Anyone still arguing that is entrenched in some big denial of actual text ....that they've likely read a dozen times if it means enough to them to argue against it." 

 

I have a giant advantage in all of this even beyond the "you've seen the series already" of it all.  Almost every shocking-as-hell twist that had to really send people reeling and into "What the hell just happened?  I feel like I have a closed head injury.  What the fuckity fuck?"  is stuff I already know.  So not only do I go into this with foreknowledge, I got into it with Anti-Reeling-From-Shocking-Developments insulation. 

 

 

There's actually quite a bit of evidence that Stannis didn't consciously choose to murder Renly. He certainly doesn't know about the shadowbaby.

 

First off here's how you do spoiler tags if you just want to do it by hand.  I'll remove a space between the bracket and the word  spoiler [ spoiler]  whatever text you want to spoiler tag [ / spoiler]  <--- remove all added spaces and type.  

 

Secondly, Stannis asked Davos to row Melisandre to the shores to kill off Penrose and seemed to be pretty aware that something of a "this will disturb the shit out of you, my long time, short-fingered friend....but I am counting upon your loyalty to me to get the dastardly deed done."  

 

ETA:

 

The fact that he is gay is not important and having Sansa fall for him isn't treated as a joke.

 

Yeah, I can understand the urge to "Okay, let's get this cleared up once and for all, shall we?" in season one with the Blowjob that Broke The Foley Artists Sound Generator, since apparently there was still debate despite the material having been around for close ....kind of a long time beforehand.   

 

But then they veered into "What in the hell are you doing, Show?" territory when -- among other things -- they had Loras talking about having dreamed of his wedding in the manner that made Sansa look foolish and openly invited the audience to laugh at her.  

 

In the book, one of the saddest things to know, reading that chapter about the dresses is Sansa telling herself that hopefully Willas will love her even if the match is just for lands and that it didn't matter that he was lame.   That's one of the few times that foreknowledge has made it actually sting more.   

 

On a first time read through that must have almost felt like a nice chapter.  "Aw, that's sweet, and more mature...." and guys I know I've told you that my BIL filled me on Tyrion's nose.  It was the one thing I was walking around knowing that I just shouldn't have, but I hadn't explained how that happened.  In the show Sansa and Tyrion were already married and my BIL was saying that I really needed to read the books to get a grasp on how awful so much of this all was.  "Tyrion's missing  half his nose, they really practically marry her off to someone who practically has to look like a monster to her."  

 

So I read that chapter and felt so incredibly sorry for her.   Not because looks are all that screamingly important, but because the poor kid had experienced enough growth to realize that on some level and the story was still getting set to kick her in the stomach with more "Have some more shattered dreams."  

Edited September 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Sansa is one character where it really feels like all of her character development keeps getting punished.

I mean, everyone keeps going through terrible stuff, but with Sansa it feels somehow more directly correlated with her growth as a character. Like every time it seems like this time she's finally started to get a handle on her situation, accept things for they are and consider ways to go about changing the things she can, she gets the rug pulled out from under her and falls into a deeper level of misery and despair.

Like "You thought you'd learned to cope, but you forgot that things can still get worse!"

[Which Tyler]

OK, I think something has been lost in translation. The sexuality of Loras and Renly isn't really up for debate in the fandom. Most "deniers" are new to the fandom, and simply missed it, see the evidence and go away again. There are obviously still a few who see all the evidence but still deny, but that generally says more about the person than the books - much like climate change, or evolution deniers.

[stillshimpy]

OK, I think something has been lost in translation. The sexuality of Loras and Renly isn't really up for debate in the fandom. Most "deniers" are new to the fandom,

 

Ooooh.  Okay, that makes much more sense to me.  Someone here said that when the series came out there were book readers who were upset "Why did they make Renly and Loras gay?"  suggesting that they'd read the books and didn't know "Uh....because they are?" in the first book, I could see missing it.  The second book....starting to be more overt.  Third book, pretty clear, but again, could be missed if you just weren't thinking much about it.  

 

And actually ambi had suggested that there are still people who still negate or explain away every example of "But what about this...and this...this too..."   so I'm actually responding to a statement that was made that surprised me. 

 

So guys, Jesus Holy Fireballs, Samwell's first chapter is a freaking doozy and a half.  His inner-monologue is exceptionally painful to read, by the way.  Just knowing that his self-talk is that harsh.  That he really has the inner monologue of someone who was emotionally abused for his entire life, while it makes sense, was just freaking heartbreaking to read.  Plus, poor Small Paul was at least given absolute and complete redemption for carrying him as long as he could.  That's the first time a man of the Night's Watch died and I really wished he could have lived.  

 

Plus, holy shit, Giants and Bears are Zombonis?  That was all terrifying and you know, I don't really understand why the show made the choice to have Sam accusing his friends "You left me to die!" when they most certainly did not and Grenn nearly got his ass turned into a Zomboni to try and save him.   It is also so much more meaningful that Sam kills a Wight, not in some defense of his crush and her baby, but in his desperate attempt to die having simply tried to do something to prevent it.  

 

I had all these thoughts about poor Arya and how that was an instance where knowing what was going to happen just made me feel sorrier than hell for her, because every time she tells Gendry that they are heading in the wrong direction, I already knew:  "Oh shit, they are taking her to the Brotherhood without Bankroll, to be ransomed off to her own family, aren't they?"  ....which I knew would be the case from the moment Harwin (who....hey, good job, you big shit, you were even worse than I thought you would be) recognized her.  

 

So I was mulling over how the two sisters are just in such horrific situations, but Arya really is just surrounded by things that are soul-destroying, vs. fantasy shattering.  How suffering is never a contest, etc.  

 

Then we hit Samwell's chapter and it scared the bejeebers out of me.  

 

I have a question though:  How did you guys feel about the casting on Lord Commander Mormont?  Because weirdly, I think Charles Dance would have been AMAZING as Lord Mormont (he's great as Tywin, but he also looks like he could be Jorah's father, is part of it).  

 

And just randomly, in the show Locke is one of Bolton's men, there to try and track down and kill Bran and Rickon.   In this I take it Locke is simply a man of the Night's Watch? 

 

ETA:  Also that was the first instance where I was very aware that my Show-Born expectation was just wrong.  When I saw Samwell's name at the top of a chapter, my reaction was absolutely not "Oh good, Sam gets a POV too! Whee!" instead it was more "Oh that's just freaking great.  Of all the people I want a POV on Samwell ranks only slightly above Frey.".....and boy was I wrong.  That was one of the better chapters in the series thus far. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

"Locke" is actually a northern House sworn to the Boltons. On the show they just used the name to refer to one guy, but it's a family name that more than one person can carry.

That's as much as I think I'll say about that for now.

[Protar]

I think that James Cosmo (Jeor Mormont) was one of the shows best casting. I can't really imagine anyone else in the role he just does it so well, and he's one of the characters whose personality is pretty much unchanged from books to show. Charles Dance would have been an interesting choice for the role. Jeor is obviously not a warm guy, but he has a fatherliness too him which I don't really associate with Dance. But then Dance did display some of that in the Arya/Tywin scenes.

 

Glad you enjoyed Sam's POV Shimpy. I didn't know you disliked him in the show?

[stillshimpy]

Glad you enjoyed Sam's POV Shimpy. I didn't know you disliked him in the show?

 

Eh.  I wouldn't say I dislike him, Protar, I'm neutral with frequently negative leanings when it comes to Sam, but that's because -- in my opinion -- they did a really poor job of translating Sam to the screen.  First season Sam has a good moment or two, but for whatever reason, rather than have Show Sam concentrate on his own perceived cowardliness, they chose to make him the most obviously horny of the young men joining the Night's Watch.   

 

I have no idea why they did that, as Book Sam is mostly very convinced of his own cowardliness and very prone to dissolving into tears.  

 

Show Sam wants to talk about breasts a lot.  Appears to be one of three entire people in the Kingdoms who bother to consult a library or scroll (they handed him the "I read it in an old forgotten, dusty tome" duty for most of the first three seasons) and then to sort of offset that, he mostly wants to talk about girls.....and I kid you not, it was three seasons before the poor guy was allowed to walk fifteen entire feet without falling the seven hells down.  It was maddening as hell.  

 

For one thing, show Sam, while a person of some size, is no way as large as his book equivalent.  In the book Sam struggles mightily to do anything, but struggle on he does and manages not to face-plant every four feet.  It's explained by his size in the book.  Show Sam's constant "Look out ground, here I come, face first!" is not attributable to his size.  

 

Show Sam?  Falls down.  A lot.  I felt for the poor actor, because he had to get every script and wonder "How long before I fall down this week and will I be tripping over seemingly nothing whatsoever again?"  

 

They did eventually improve him, but for the first few seasons, the guy existed to be (probably appropriately for a teen boy) pervy, bookish (although we hardly ever saw him reading) and to do nearly constant, "I can report that gravity is still working, Ser!" checks.    

Edited September 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

Fair enough. I have seen that complaint before and I can't say I disagree with it. I think that they feared that if Sam was quite as cowardly as he is in the books it would be grating on audiences, so they decided to make him "cooler" and a little more confident. At least around his friends. More of a dorky but wise cracking nerd than the abuse victim he is in the books. It takes away a lot from his character arc I think. 

[ambi76]

Yeah, the Renly/Loras relationship isn't some mega debate in ASOIAF fandom, Which Tyler, but I have to disagree that the denials only come from new people who get over it after they read ASOS. There was/is a substantial amount of fans that read all the books up to ADWD didn't get it and are not particular kneen on getting it either.

 

About Samwell's downplayed cowardice on the show, I can't say that the heavier play of it in the books bothered me all that much but show!Sam still seems a bit easier to emphatise with for some reason for me.

Edited September 20, 2015 by ambi76

[chandraReborn]

Eh, I don't feel too bad about the whole 'ransoming Arya' plot. It was pretty standard in the Middle Ages to do so with the family of important people, and was a very important social structure that protected innocent young girls like Arya. And it's not like the Brotherhood sought her out for ransom cash. 

[Triskan]

So guys, Jesus Holy Fireballs, Samwell's first chapter is a freaking doozy and a half.

 

Oooh, I was so waiting for you to get to that one ! 

 

Now I can go back and read your take on it ! ^^

 

Sam kills a Wight

 

Technically, it was a Walker, or an Other... the "master" etheral species... wights are their zombonies ! ;)

 

not in some defense of his crush and her baby, but in his desperate attempt to die having simply tried to do something to prevent it.

 

Glad to see someone else think so ! I too found the moment more powerful in the books. There's no one else but him to protect. It's him and himself only and his wish to die was truly agonizing ! 

I agree the "protect your loved one" is a strong image as well, but there was something more terrorizing and breath-taking to see Sam alone there !

 

How did you guys feel about the casting on Lord Commander Mormont?

 

Charles Dance would have nailed the role indeed, but James Cosmo was exactly what I pictured Mormont to be, so it's one of those perfect Nina Gold casting for me ! Like almost all of her choices and discoveries !

 

but show!Sam still seems a bit easier to emphatise with for some reason for me.

 

 

John Bradley, man, John Bradley... I blame him ! 

I always loved him as Sam !

Edited September 20, 2015 by Triskan

[nksarmi]

Some of Sam's story is more interesting in the books and the show did seem to lose the fact that there was loyalty, brotherhood, and honor in the Night's Watch.  Yes, some of them were scum and some of them did mutiny against Mormont.  But the books balance that out and show you that there is a reason why Jon would have been raised to think it an honor to join.  If I remember correctly, it was a tradition for Northern houses to send at least one non-heir son to the watch.  And I always got the feeling that "go to jail or go the wall" was GRRM's nod to when they used to let young men join the army (or the marines more specifically) rather than go to jail with the whole idea that it would "straighten them out."  The show made the NW seem just awful - to the point where you are kind of cheering for the wildlings no matter how dull and boring they might be.

[Eegah]

And let's not forget that Book Sam didn't idiotically leave his dragonglass dagger behind for no reason after killing the White Walker. Though that's one area where I'm comfortable placing blame on the director rather than the writing.

[Haleth]

I thought Arya was extremely lucky to fall into the clutches of Robin Hood's, err, Beric Dondarrion's men. They were probably the only faction that really intended to get her to her family, for a price of course. Dondarrion came from the Stark School for Well Intended But Blundering Knights.

Book Sam makes me tear my hair out. Poor self esteem is one thing but Book Sam takes it to extremes. For everything he gets right, his timidity makes him get ten things wrong. It gets tedious. Plus after all the walking and meager rations he should certainly not be as fat as Martin describes.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, that has absolutely occurred to me, Haleth when it comes to Sam and I've said as much here. 

 

He'd simply be in slightly better shape and nowhere near as large after a good long time in the Night's Watch, but there are things about Martin's stories (far beyond "there be dragons" ) in which he is choosing to suspend some reality.  

 

The show made the NW seem just awful - to the point where you are kind of cheering for the wildlings no matter how dull and boring they might be.

 

The show version of the Night's Watch is awful.  The only decent human beings are Sam, Jon, Jon's friends (all soon to die) and Mormont.  Other than that, poor Jon looks like a fool for being so desperate to consider these lawless, raping, nasty pieces of work his "brothers'.  Argh. 

 

But when it comes to "this version of Sam drove me crazy" Haleth, I swear if you meet Show Sam first, he's just really a bit annoying in his own right.  "Why the hell are you taking a vow of lifelong celibacy when all you want to do is get laid and eat??? Go be a Maester, what the hell?"  Sam's story of how his father tells him he can either join the Night's Watch or die in a hunting accident just makes so little sense....since the Septons and the Maesters in King's Landing get busy with whomever they wish too.  Go be a learned man rather than join up with the people the show pretty much insists on referring to as "rapers" and it made me wonder why the hell Benjen Stark didn't tell Jon "Nooooooooooo! Anything but join the watch, Nephew, anything."  

[jellyroll2]

Well about Sam and his weight

I do think there's quite a bit of evidence that he's lost weight as the story goes along. He keeps talking about how his belt and pants keep falling. He was huge so I'm sure he's still a large guy but I think he's surely not as large as he was when we first meet him. You rarely notice weight loss in yourself - you notice clothes fitting differently, etc. It's others who notice weight loss. And really by the time he's noticing the loose belts and what not, the only one around who remotely knows him is Gilly. So no one else would know he's lost weight.

 

Shimpy, has Sam mentioned about the maesters and such yet? About his feelings about the Citadel? I thought that was part of his initial story to Jon but I can't recall. I don't want to talk about it if he hasn't yet. As far as maesters and septons enjoying the company of women, it's very much the Church in the middle ages. They're not supposed to have any such dealings as mistresses, paramours, etc but most do and it's just overlooked. So no matter where Sam went the idea would have been the same - celibacy.

[stillshimpy]

So no matter where Sam went the idea would have been the same - celibacy.

 

I got that, it's just one would involve study and reading....presumably food and wine aplenty too.  No need to fight, or face danger.    It's just if you're going to be stuck in the "forced into a life where I gave up my birthright" it seems like there were ways to better appeal to his strengths and inclinations.  

 

I don't recalll what Sam has, or hasn't said about the Citadel though, but he must have already said it.  

Edited September 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Seerow]

I got that, it's just one would involve study and reading....presumably food and wine aplenty too.  No need to fight, or face danger.    It's just if you're going to be stuck in the "forced into a life where I gave up my birthright" it seems like there were ways to better appeal to his strengths and inclinations.  

 

I don't recalll what Sam has, or hasn't said about the Citadel though, but he must have already said it.  

 

It's possible the conversation being referred to comes later (in fact I think it is in AFFC), rather than during the initial story Sam tells Jon. Probably best to avoid commenting on it until someone makes sure or we get there.

[jellyroll2]

Yeah, maybe that's where he talks about it. Because he definitely mentions it. But I'm glad I didn't elaborate further. LOL