Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, that was actually my main impression when Jon meets Mance:  Why in the world did they cast someone with the gravitas of Ciaran Hinds to play this particular character?  Hinds abilities were almost entirely wasted in the show, for one thing, and no real reason other than "I want to live free" was ever given for Mance's defection.  

 

 

I know a lot of people, myself included, were pretty disappointed that Mance's story about the cloak was left out of the show.

 

I loved the story of the cape, and I don't understand, even a little why that wasn't included in Mance's introduction, except for the "Hinds is not a merry sort of fellow" stuff.  Plus, everything with the Wildlings has the Grim Factor turned up to "Just slightly above The Road in terms of how visually appealing it all is" ....I get why they did it.  Money, money, money.  Instead of showing whole families and a giant camp, they made it seem like a tiny posse of poorly dressed, never bathed bumpkins.  Most of whom came off more like "I want to conquer the South" than "Let's get the hell away from the bad shit that is coming for everyone" which is yet another "Why, why did you rob the people of the North of anything resembling interesting characteristics?"  

 

Mance says it to Jon once, but the rest of the time it just seems like they have a beastly grudge against The Crows and all people of the South and it's more "We're going to kill your people and take your lands" than "We have to get the hell South, and woe betide any who stand in our way."  

 

Now, here's one thing that I think the show actually improves upon:  The gave Jon a much better reason for defecting than "I have a grudge against my family of origin."  

 

Sometimes cutesy stuff works better than others, in my opinion, and Mance's story of "to take his measure" was too cutesy by more than half for my tastes. 

Edited September 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I agree with you on the reason for defecting. I thought it came across as pretty believable on the show, whereas in the book I was a little incredulous that anyone bought that he was really defecting.

[John Potts]

stillshimpy Also, Patches sings about the Red Wedding?  Fool's Blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom , aye aye aye.

 

 

While it's mostly about the Red Wedding (erm, spoiler?), I'm pretty sure "blood on the maiden's thigh" refers to something else:

Brienne & Jamie's fight on the bridge, since Jamie cutting Brienne's thigh is explicitly mentioned.

. Though come to think of it, that event may have already happened.

 

(Glad you liked my post about Jamie & Cersei, even if it contains a triple negative, so is dubious English...)

 

I don't really have a problem with Mance at Winterfell - it's not like there are any security cameras around (or even any Wanted posters, apparently). At any big shindig there are going to be hundreds of new people milling around, so slipping in as  a bard would be perfectly plausible. And it does establish him as a fearless leader for sneaking in to see the enemy King, which might help inspire his followers.

[mac123x]

A nice touch in the story, that the series didn't really touch upon, was that because Loras fought in Renly's armor (which is a cute touch to help indicate their relationship, but unless they were the same height -- and they weren't -- it wouldn't happen armor was not one-size-fits-all) Renly's former bannermen returned to him during the Blackwater.

 

The show didn't do much with the legend of Renly's Ghost, which I thought was a nice touch showing how actual events develop into fairy-tale stories through word of mouth and embellishment by singers.  Probably something that works better on paper than TV

 

IT was actually Garlan Tyrell in Renly's armor in the books, because the armor was too big for Loras.

 

 

 

Also, Patches sings about the Red Wedding?  Fool's Blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom , aye aye aye.

On my first re-read that gave me chills.  And it made me go back a reread everything else Patchface sang just to see if I could like it up with other events.

Edited September 15, 2015 by mac123x

[Delta1212]

While it's mostly about the Red Wedding (erm, spoiler?), I'm pretty sure "blood on the maiden's thigh" refers to something else:

Brienne & Jamie's fight on the bridge, since Jamie cutting Brienne's thigh is explicitly mentioned.

. Though come to think of it, that event may have already happened.

(Glad you liked my post about Jamie & Cersei, even if it contains a triple negative, so is dubious English...)

I don't really have a problem with Mance at Winterfell - it's not like there are any security cameras around (or even any Wanted posters, apparently). At any big shindig there are going to be hundreds of new people milling around, so slipping in as a bard would be perfectly plausible. And it does establish him as a fearless leader for sneaking in to see the enemy King, which might help inspire his followers.

I think given the context, that 'blood on the maiden's thigh' clearly is supposed to refer to the bedding rather than something outside the context of the wedding.

And yeah, pretty much every line of dialogue Patchface has gets analysed to death trying to figure out might be prophecy/foreshadowing and what is just random mumbling.

There are a lot of (sometimes very crazy) theories about him.

[Protar]

I agree with you on the reason for defecting. I thought it came across as pretty believable on the show, whereas in the book I was a little incredulous that anyone bought that he was really defecting.

 

I liked Jon's excuse for defecting in the books. Not that it wasn't believable in the show, but it was rather generic "I want to kill zombies." In the books, Jon's explanation for joining the wildlings actually comes from a very personal place in his heart. Not that Jon doesn't care about fighting the Others, but that's a very broad, lofty goal. His story about being a bastard is more personal. 

[stillshimpy]

(Glad you liked my post about Jamie & Cersei, even if it contains a triple negative, so is dubious English...)

 

I specialize in Dubious English, being from Clan Run, Sentence, Run! and our tartan is a field of misused commas on a field of split infinitives.  We're closing related to to Gang Dangling Participle, of the Fuck Rules Mainly Used to Gauge Socioeconomic Class in Times of Yore lands :-D  

 

Seriously though, I do like language, I just don't sweat that stuff much (clearly).  

 

don't really have a problem with Mance at Winterfell - it's not like there are any security cameras around (or even any Wanted posters, apparently).

 

I do, considering that Benjen Stark was at that wedding and "to take his measure" is just goofy.  "To kill that bastard dead and bring about a rebellion that would lead to the freedom for all" ?  Yeah, I'd accept risking his life for that.   But "to take his measure"?  Oh for goodness sake.  The North, true North seems very wedded to the legends of what Bards and Warriors alike have done.  Presumably the tale of Robert's Hammer had long since reached Mance's ear.  

 

It was really one of the dafter things I've seen in this particular story, but Martin wanted to set it up that Mance already knew of Jon Snow, so he could give a rather goofy reason for defecting.  So he did. 

[nksarmi]

I liked Jon's excuse for defecting in the books. Not that it wasn't believable in the show, but it was rather generic "I want to kill zombies." In the books, Jon's explanation for joining the wildlings actually comes from a very personal place in his heart. Not that Jon doesn't care about fighting the Others, but that's a very broad, lofty goal. His story about being a bastard is more personal. 

I like Jon's reason in the books.  Plus at that exact moment when he is facing his death, he gives Mance a reason that he can connect to and totally believe.  Jon's reason plays on emotions he on some level probably felt given how Catelyn treated him, but more than that - it played on what everyone else thought of bastards so it worked.  Given that one line, it was probably easy for Mance to infer that Jon never wanted to join the NW and was shipped off there because that's what noble houses do with bastards.  It really made a lot of sense.

[Protar]

I also don't have a problem with Mance infiltrating Winterfell because again - Martin's world is actually quite larger than life, and the wildlings especially seem to have a certain reverence for guile heroes. The idea of their king sneaking into Winterfell right under the noses of the kneeler king and his lords, not to cause any trouble but literally just for shits and giggles probably seems pretty awesome and hilarious to most wildlings. 

 

And of course he infiltrates Winterfell again in ADWD, so it has some nice thematic resonance.

[ambi76]

A nice touch in the story, that the series didn't really touch upon, was that because Loras fought in Renly's armor (which is a cute touch to help indicate their relationship, but unless they were the same height -- and they weren't -- it wouldn't happen armor was not one-size-fits-all) Renly's former bannermen returned to him during the Blackwater.

 

Well, even some readers (never mind Stannis's men) were utterly confused about what the fuck was going on with the "Renly's Ghost" thing, because GRRM drops this for like seventy chapters or so, before it is actually explained (will be near the end of ASOS shimpy). Something he does quite a bit with his built in little mysteries i.e. the reveal finally comes just when the reader is about to forget about it and is not even sure they still care.

 

With Garlan as Renly and Loras by his side the illusion is even more perfect, so Loras ought not to be pouting so much about not fitting in the armor.

Edited September 15, 2015 by ambi76

[Avaleigh]

I think given the context, that 'blood on the maiden's thigh' clearly is supposed to refer to the bedding rather than something outside the context of the wedding.

And yeah, pretty much every line of dialogue Patchface has gets analysed to death trying to figure out might be prophecy/foreshadowing and what is just random mumbling.

There are a lot of (sometimes very crazy) theories about him.

I personally love the one that says every time Patchface is talking about 'Under the Sea' that he's referring to Valyria. That gave me chills when I first read it because I think it makes so much sense. 

[Triskan]

The idea of their king sneaking into Winterfell right under the noses of the kneeler king and his lords, not to cause any trouble but literally just for shits and giggles probably seems pretty awesome and hilarious to most wildlings.

 

 

Exactly my thoughts ! It sounds very Free Folk - like to do such a thing, imo ! 

[jellyroll2]

I also didn't have an issue with Mance being in Winterfell. Yes, he did it partly for kicks and to see if he could I'm sure. But "to take his measure" wasn't so out there. Mance has been gathering the wildlings together for years. Once Jon meets them, that large gathering was not something that had come together on spur of the moment or recently. The plan to move south was likely already being formed if not in place. Robert's visit by the time Jon meets Mance had only likely been a year or so before. Mance and his people are about to head south. All 100,000 of them. It's probably a good idea to get some sense of the guy wearing the crown on the other side of the Wall. The guy who's land you're about to invade, along with the Stark in Winterfell who would be in charge of fighting you.

 

The legend of Robert killing Rhaegar and essentially toppling a dynasty must be known by the wildlings and Mance. It had been more than a decade previously - probably smart to see if he's still as strong a warrior as he was then when you're bringing an army (with giants and mammoths) plus a bunch of defenseless women, children and animals into said guy's realm.

 

I also had no issues with either book!Jon's excuse or show!Jon's. Both excuses worked for the particular Jon in that medium.

 

Patchface freaks me the hell out just because you never know if's foretelling some horrific shit that's going to happen or just mumbling nonsense.

 

Something I'm looking forward to Shimpy reading?

How Tyrion & Jaime truly left things at the end of SoS.

Well, even some readers (never mind Stannis's men) were utterly confused about what the fuck was going on with the "Renly's Ghost" thing, because GRRM drops this for like seventy chapters or so, before it is actually explained (will be near the end of ASOS shimpy). Something he does quite a bit with his built in little mysteries i.e. the reveal finally comes just when the reader is about to forget about it and is not even sure they still care.

 

With Garlan as Renly and Loras by his side the illusion is even more perfect, so Loras ought not to be pouting so much about not fitting in the armor.

This is so fitting for the

who tried to kill Bran plotline

 The answer was given in such an off-hand, off the cuff way that you're just left like, 'oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that and at this point it doesn't even fucking matter"

[Eegah]

Actually, Loras was wearing Renly's armor at the Blackwater in the show. It's just that the circumstances really didn't allow for them to pay much attention to it so it's more of an Easter egg if you recognize the antlers.

[Lady S.]

The thing I found annoying in the show's Mance/Jon meeting was that they cut the two times Mance went to Winterfell but still included him recognizing Jon as Ned Stark's bastard

[Dev F]

The thing I found annoying in the show's Mance/Jon meeting was that they cut the two times Mance went to Winterfell but still included him recognizing Jon as Ned Stark's bastard

 

Well, he recognizes him by name, not by sight, which doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to me.

 

I've mentioned this in a couple of the bookwalker threads, but I'm starting to suspect that the reason the show's producers deemphasized Mance and the wildlings in general is because they're planning to take a big chunk of their role in subsequent books and give it to

Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale

.

[Lavignac]

I'm sorry it looks as if the wolves are my only active topic, but others summed up my thoughts well on other stuff.

 

Re: "Nymeria's pack" : actually, we can't know given the current info whether it is Nymeria. It is a common fan assumption, since it would be cool, and feels likely: how many huge female wolves with a grudge against the Lannisters are prowling across the Riverlands at this point in time? 

Then if you feel like her behaviour is incoherent with past relationships with Arya, that is a valid criticism against that being Nymeria.

 

That being said, GRRM did hint at some point in an interview that

the Riverlands pack of wolves is a Chekhov's gun that we can expect to be fired in the future.

[ambi76]

Actually, Loras was wearing Renly's armor at the Blackwater in the show. It's just that the circumstances really didn't allow for them to pay much attention to it so it's more of an Easter egg if you recognize the antlers.

 

Which was possible because Finn and Gethin are pretty much the same height (Finn is actually an inch or so taller then Geth). But there was never any focus on Renly's armor on the show except in this scene (Loras fiddeling with the armor and mourning Renly) that got deleted in the end, so not many people got it. Hell, quite a bunch didn't even recognize Loras and thought that was Lancel in the throne room or Tywin on the white horse.

[jellyroll2]

Well, he recognizes him by name, not by sight, which doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to me.

 

I've mentioned this in a couple of the bookwalker threads, but I'm starting to suspect that the reason the show's producers deemphasized Mance and the wildlings in general is because they're planning to take a big chunk of their role in subsequent books and give it to

Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale

.

Ugh I would hate that.

[John Potts]

stillshimpy I do, considering that Benjen Stark was at that wedding and "to take his measure" is just goofy.

 

 

OK, I'd forgotten that Benjen was at Winterfell too and they'd presumably know each other by sight (depending when Mance switched sides/Benjen took the black) and presumably Mance would be aware of that possibility of running into him. But even scouting the likely enemy commanders provides valuable info for an army. I guess it's a case of how valuable that mission would be v the risks of getting caught (and executed). Though I wouldn't discount the propaganda value of scouting the enemy camp both as a recruiting tool ("Our guy has no fear - he walked into the enemy camp and got out without the enemy noticing!") and to prove to them that they aren't so tough if your leader can march into the heart of the enemy. In the Bible, David cuts Saul's cloak when he comes upon him sleeping and it was seen as a great propaganda coup for his side (I could look up Chapter & Verse, but I can't be bothered!), even if he could have won the war by killing Saul at that point. Likewise, a leader who can say, "Well, I'm so badass I could have killed their King but I'm too honourable to do so (plus I'd never survive doing so, but I don't need to mention that)".

 

Delta1212 on the subject of Patchface, you may well be right (although the point at which the maiden has blood on her thigh she's pretty much guaranteed not to qualify as a maiden anymore if it's at her wedding/bedding, although if there happens to be a massacre at the time*, I guess there might be). Though analysing prophecies is pretty much the definition of fanwanking, unless you actually are GRRM!

 

As for Dev F's spoiler comment: I would hate that too!

 

* Purely hypothetically speaking, you understand!

Edited September 15, 2015 by John Potts

[Delta1212]

Mance managed to unite all the various Wildlings tribes, something that no one has supposedly been able to do before.

I wouldn't be surprised if a willingness to emulate the great feats and derring-do of Wildling folk heroes like Bael the Bard, sneaking into Winterfell disguised as a musician, wasn't a part of building up the persona that allowed him to do that. He went from being a Crow to being more of a Wildling than any of the Wildlings. A larger than life figure straight out of one of the songs.

[Shanna Marie]

I wouldn't be surprised if a willingness to emulate the great feats and derring-do of Wildling folk heroes like Bael the Bard, sneaking into Winterfell disguised as a musician, wasn't a part of building up the persona that allowed him to do that. He went from being a Crow to being more of a Wildling than any of the Wildlings. A larger than life figure straight out of one of the songs.

That was the way I saw that. I rather loved the audacity of it, as well as the side of his character who could be a bard and pull off the deception. Would Benjen have even been looking for him there? Who actually pays that much attention to the guy sitting in the corner and playing the background music? I was a bit disappointed that they didn't include this in the show, but I guess it's one of those things that only works in print, where you can show it through the perspective of someone who'd have no idea who it was if he even noticed him. On the show, where we have an objective point of view, it's less effective. Viewers would have been all "Hey, there's Ciaran Hinds! Why doesn't he have any lines?" Then there's budget/casting concerns. Would they cast a name actor to sit in the background of a scene in the pilot and not show up again for another two seasons?

 

I do agree the role was miscast, as much as I love this actor. I saw the character as close to being a Robin Hood type (the version in legends and old movies, not the impostor currently on Once Upon a Time). He's the kind of guy who would show up in disguise to compete in an archery tournament in spite of being a wanted man. Getting himself hired as a musician for a banquet in Winterfell is that kind of stunt.

[Dev F]

I do agree the role was miscast, as much as I love this actor. I saw the character as close to being a Robin Hood type (the version in legends and old movies, not the impostor currently on Once Upon a Time). He's the kind of guy who would show up in disguise to compete in an archery tournament in spite of being a wanted man. Getting himself hired as a musician for a banquet in Winterfell is that kind of stunt.

 

But there's nothing in the show that ever really makes use of the fact that the wildlings follow this Robin Hood figure, is there? Like shimpy suggested, the Free Folk are just grim and savage and proud, not merry tricksters. Whereas in the books,

there seems to be a whole storyline upcoming about how Mance infiltrates Winterfell again and turns his enemies against one another in diabolical fashion (i.e., via the Pink Letter).

I can see the logic behind excising that aspect of the wildling character if the related story points have also been excised.

 

That's also the source of the speculation in my last post.

I think this is going to be a pretty straightforward adaptation choice to avoid duplication: Littlefinger has already been established as the trickster character of the tale, so he'll be the one who infiltrates Winterfell to manipulate the various forces of the North to his own ends. Just as Barristan died so that Tyrion could take over his role, I think Mance died for realsies so that Littlefinger could take over his.

 

Edited to add: Big spoilers in the above spoiler boxes.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Dev F

[Eegah]

Is it weird that for a while I was kind of hoping they'd get Patrick Stewart?

[nksarmi]

So can't wait for shimpy to get to Catelyn II so we can discuss that lol. 

[Lady S.]

That was the way I saw that. I rather loved the audacity of it, as well as the side of his character who could be a bard and pull off the deception. Would Benjen have even been looking for him there? Who actually pays that much attention to the guy sitting in the corner and playing the background music? 

I had the impression that Mance and Benjen didn't really know each other, since book Mance served in the Shadow Tower, not Castle Black. Looking it up.... 

Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before.I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well.

 

In a time and place with no wanted posters, isn't it possible no one at that feast knew Mance by sight? After he deserted I don't think many crows got close to him and lived to tell about it. Ben could have heard what he looked like from brothers like Qhorin who did know him, but Jon's PoV makes him out to be quite an ordinary looking man, with no distinctive physical characteristics, so a general height, hair color, etc description probably wouldn't be enough to pick him out of a crowd. I could easily buy that a simple disguise and the anonymity of a crowd would be enough to keep him safe from people who weren't even looking for him.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

Oh lord.  So Talisa was actually invented for the show and the real wife of Robb Stark is named Jeyne Westerling....and worse fucking still....it was clearly a fucking trap laid by Tywin Lannister to use the Stark honor against him. 

 

Fuckity fuck fuck, fuck.  Well shit, I don't know if that makes poor doomed Robb more or less of an idiot, but I'm inclined to say more.   At least when he chose to marry Talisa it was a choice and they loved one another...and Catelyn had lost the damned war by releasing Jaime Lannister anyway, so it had to feel like "oh screw it, I'm so going to die anyway, I might as well have some happiness while I live" ....this way, poor freaking Robb is seduced while grieving and hurt, by the daughter of a family known to be loyal to the Lannisters.  

 

Argh.  It kind of makes me want to day drink, I'm telling you.  It does help explain some of the weirder reactions we had to Talisa where people were "guessing" that she was a spy back in the day and constantly talking about how they didn't trust her.  

 

I'm exceptionally torn here.  On the one hand, at least Robb is shown to have more agency....even if it is foolhardy agency....in the show's version with Talisa.  But in the book's version, good GOD he'd have to be a complete ninny not to realize that Jeyne was sent to seduce him....and heaven help him, not just that, that the reason Tywin would know to do it is because of friggin' Edmure Tully wanting to cover himself in vain glory. 

 

I had other notes before I got to that, like Bolton being called Lord Leech tickled me.   It turned out Jaime also killed The Hand when he killed Aerys (and the show actually improved slightly on what went down, making it sound a lot less thought out on Jaime's part and more a reaction to being told to kill his father) and the continued suck that is Arya's life.  I can't imagine anything good will come out of Harwin recognizing her.   

 

The brotherhood is going to try and ransom her, aren't they?  

 

But mostly finding out that Talisa is actually Jeyne and she practically came with a note attached to her heel saying, "Tywin Lannister sent me as a trap!" is just depressing as all hell.  Particularly that Grey Wind didn't like her or her family, and Robb ceased to care because he thought the wolves had failed his brothers?  That sucks out loud, man. 

 

So now I know why Mya told me that the Red Wedding isn't going to feature a woman being stabbed to death in the baby.  She's part of the trap, so she's safe as houses.  God damn, story, that's cold. 

[Dev F]

Interestingly, it sounds like the show actually morphed Jeyne into Talisa a bit at a time. They first decided to make her a battlefield nurse so as to set up the fact that she would nurse Robb back to health, then decided to change her backstory so she was a noblewoman from Volantis (presumably because a Western noblewoman wouldn't be ministering to Robb's troops), then changed her name to "Talisa Maegyr" when GRRM pointed out that "Jeyne Westerling" is not a Volantene name. By the time they got to the end of her story they'd excised the "nursed him back to health" part of the story, thus negating the point of making her a nurse in the first place!

 

Weirdly, there's still a scene in the show where Talisa is taken aback by the fact that Robb wants to take her with him to the Crag (seat of House Westerling), which made some viewers think that she was ultimately going to be revealed as Jeyne Westerling in disguise. I think the point of that scene is supposed to be that Talisa is weirded out by Robb essentially asking her out on a date, but the fact that it involves the Crag at all does make me wonder if they originally had other plans for the character.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Dev F

[Protar]

I've got to say - I despise Talisa. She's just a terribly written character, because she represents the spunky peasant girl trope which Martin has expressly said he disliked. There's no way that a young women could walk around battlefields without a chaperone back talking nobles in Westeros. And all in all she just strikes me as an attempt to make Jeyne "cooler" and more "exotic." 

[Avaleigh]

Shimpy, I am now free to tell you that I hated the character of Talisa and wish they'd kept it being Jeyne Westerling. I feel like Robb going for Jeyne really drives home the point that Tywin was able to beat Robb in battle in a different sense. 

 

I also found the scenes between Talisa and Robb to be boring in general. They tried so hard to make her so damned perfect and noble that it irritated me. Meanwhile the actress wasn't even that capable IMHO.

 

This doesn't mean that I wasn't moved by what happened to her character during the Red Wedding. 

 

ETA:

 

I agree with your entire post, Protar.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Protar]

Oh and also yeah, they just made the relationship so much more stereotypical. In the books, Robb marries for honour. That's a little bit more unique than the standard breaking an arranged marriage for love thing. 

[Lady S.]

Ah, yes, this is the chapter we've all been waiting for. I've always thought tv Robb came off as dumber since he very clearly did not believe he was living on borrowed time and needed to get in as much joy as he could, he was still trying to win the war. (And even so, that's an excuse to get laid, not an excuse to get married.) And marrying for twu wuv was more selfish to boot since any lord's marriage is going to be political, a king's even more so, it didn't make much sense that tv Robb would ever expect otherwise. He responded to his mother making a personal decision that insulted his banermen by making another decision for personal reasons that insulted his bannermen, by not only breaking a pact but doing so for a bride who brought no soldiers whatsoever to his cause. I don't have much sympathy for the YOLO approach when he had a whole kingdom and thousands of soldiers at stake, not just his own life. Robb and Catelyn making separate decisions fueled by grief with Robb having some idea after the fact of what a mess he'd made is more tragic and sympathetic to me than Catelyn's bad decision somehow being used to excuse Robb of any wrongdoing.

 

 

I'm exceptionally torn here.  On the one hand, at least Robb is shown to have more agency....even if it is foolhardy agency....in the show's version with Talisa.  But in the book's version, good GOD he'd have to be a complete ninny not to realize that Jeyne was sent to seduce him....and heaven help him, not just that, that the reason Tywin would know to do it is because of friggin' Edmure Tully wanting to cover himself in vain glory. 

 

Edmure? Do you mean Tywin issued the order from King's Landing? I don't think the timing works out for that. Robb took the Crag before Blackwater and if he was injured in that assault Jeyne would have nursing him back to health pretty soon after. In Arya's last Clash chapter, Roose and the Freys are just reacting to the news of Blackwater and then they get another raven and learn of their king's "betrayal". Also, we know Tyrion got the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" before Blackwater, so I doubt there was a delay with Robb learning after Blackwater. 

[WindyNights]

Oh lord. So Talisa was actually invented for the show and the real wife of Robb Stark is named Jeyne Westerling....and worse fucking still....it was clearly a fucking trap laid by Tywin Lannister to use the Stark honor against him.

Fuckity fuck fuck, fuck. Well shit, I don't know if that makes poor doomed Robb more or less of an idiot, but I'm inclined to say more. At least when he chose to marry Talisa it was a choice and they loved one another...and Catelyn had lost the damned war by releasing Jaime Lannister anyway, so it had to feel like "oh screw it, I'm so going to die anyway, I might as well have some happiness while I live" ....this way, poor freaking Robb is seduced while grieving and hurt, by the daughter of a family known to be loyal to the Lannisters.

Argh. It kind of makes me want to day drink, I'm telling you. It does help explain some of the weirder reactions we had to Talisa where people were "guessing" that she was a spy back in the day and constantly talking about how they didn't trust her.

I'm exceptionally torn here. On the one hand, at least Robb is shown to have more agency....even if it is foolhardy agency....in the show's version with Talisa. But in the book's version, good GOD he'd have to be a complete ninny not to realize that Jeyne was sent to seduce him....and heaven help him, not just that, that the reason Tywin would know to do it is because of friggin' Edmure Tully wanting to cover himself in vain glory.

I had other notes before I got to that, like Bolton being called Lord Leech tickled me. It turned out Jaime also killed The Hand when he killed Aerys (and the show actually improved slightly on what went down, making it sound a lot less thought out on Jaime's part and more a reaction to being told to kill his father) and the continued suck that is Arya's life. I can't imagine anything good will come out of Harwin recognizing her.

The brotherhood is going to try and ransom her, aren't they?

But mostly finding out that Talisa is actually Jeyne and she practically came with a note attached to her heel saying, "Tywin Lannister sent me as a trap!" is just depressing as all hell. Particularly that Grey Wind didn't like her or her family, and Robb ceased to care because he thought the wolves had failed his brothers? That sucks out loud, man.

So now I know why Mya told me that the Red Wedding isn't going to feature a woman being stabbed to death in the baby. She's part of the trap, so she's safe as houses. God damn, story, that's cold.

You might be getting g a little ahead of yourself.

Just a minor correction but Grey Wind doesn't dislike Jeyne. They seem to get along.

Anyways I hated Talisa too. The culmination of their plotline made TV Robb look selfish and much less sympathetic.

It didn't help that Talisa was written terribly in general.

Edited September 16, 2015 by WindyNights

[Lady S.]

You might be getting g a little ahead of yourself.

 

Yeah, it's a lot easier to pick up on things when the show's given you 20/20 hindsight. Were any book-first fans here expecting Robb's death after Jaime's release and his marriage to Jeyne? From what I've seen, it was quite a shocker even with the foreshadowing of Dany's HotU vision and Theon's dream.

[stillshimpy]

Were any book-first fans here expecting Robb's death after Jaime's release and his marriage to Jeyne?

 

 

I would assume they were, because of what Dany saw in the House of Dust, or Palace of Dust.  That really wasn't that subtle.   

 

A dead King with a wolf's head at a wedding feast?  I get that the Redd Wedding would have still floored people because it's so incredibly awful, but people had to know that Robb was one doomed fucking Stark from that point on, didn't they? 

 

On how well Talisa was, or wasn't written...eh, she wasn't the strongest characterization, but she's no more or less a type than Arya or Sansa.  The actress who played her is one of Charlie Chaplin's granddaughters, isn't she? Oona Chaplin, right?  So I assume she was cast because of that, vs. any real ability.  Mostly she drove me insane because she was supposed to be a freaking battlefield nurse and her hair was never, ever up.  It was INSANELY distracting.  

 

But I can also see why they changed it, because Jon's main story was his time with the Wildlings and faux-love-affair with Ygritte that's really just done to maintain a cover.  I'm assuming the show made the call to have at least one relationship be a real one, vs. Shae and Tyrion (purchased) , Ygritte and Jon (part of a cover, even if there were real feelings) and then to have Robb Mata Hari'd or otherwise entrapped.   

 

 

 

Edmure? Do you mean Tywin issued the order from King's Landing?

 

No, I meant that Edmure keeping Tywin's forces from pursuing Robb gave Twyin time to find out that Robb was waiting for him elsewhere (and that's actually what the chapter I just read states) ....and apparently to figure out a plan to entrap Robb via the bullheaded Stark form of honor.  

 

By the time Robb marries Talisa in the show, Stannis has lost at the Blackwater.  The Tyrell's have joined the Lannisters, Robb's got problems with disloyalty in the ranks as it is and his mother has bloody well let Jaime Lannister go, so I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that Robb wouldn't have at least some reason to believe "Oh fuck it, there's almost no chance we can actually win now ..." but even if that wasn't the case, as stupid a decision as it was (because it absolutely was) at least it wasn't one made while grieving and seduced.  

 

In the book the decision Robb makes is that of a very young man, easily deceived.  At least that's how it just read to me.  

 

In the show, all complaints about the characterization and acting aside (because...yeah, it wasn't great in any of that) at least it is his active choice vs. a vaguely pathetic "Oh you poor freaking fool you, how did you fall for that one?" 

 

In Jaime's chapter they had him joining the Kingsguard after Cersei essentially seduces him ....but they've been together all their lives.  Tywin's a real freaking treat of a human beign, so the love Jaime felt for Cersei was likely the only love he'd ever had in his life and Cersei purposefully uses that.   It works because he loves her anyway and she purposefully perverts and uses that.  

 

Robb's hurt, grieving and really freaking vulnerable and I take it he marries her because he feels that it's the honorable thing to do.  From Catelyn's reaction, she seems to sort of spot all the "That seems AWFULLY CONVENIENT" in all of it.   So Robb feels like he spoiled her honor, but even if she wasn't actively in on it, they were both pretty clearly set the hell up to have precisely that happen.  

He's left alone with an enemy nobleman's daughter?  Yeah, that can't have been an accident.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

shimpy, have you ever seen The Sixth Sense or Fight Club?

[stillshimpy]

Yes.  

 

If you're going to ask, "If you didn't know there was a twist, would you have guessed?"  

 

In Fight Club it is damned near impossible to guess, because they used two actors.   In the Sixth Sense -- weird story, I actually saw the damned thing the weekend it came out and no, I didn't spot that there was going to be a twist (because there had been no buzz)....but dude, that's because I was bored out of my damned mind and checking my watch.  

 

So it's not really a comparable thing.  People had -- presumably years -- in between the 2nd and 3rd books to try and figure out the meaning of what Dany sees in that Palace of Dust/House of the Undying visions might mean and honestly, a King with a dead King with a Wolf's head, when they run around calling Robb "The Young Wolf" over and over....it doesn't take a scrying glass to sort out "Who's the Dead Dude in that one?"  

 

But in terms of the Sixth Sense, I am here to tell you....that movie is Ass Boring when you don't know there's some kind of twist.  It's not a fresh plot.   God I wanted that damned thing to wrap the hell up....and then it finally did something interesting and indeed it was a case of "Oh holy shit, well done! That was surprising!"  

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

I've got to say - I despise Talisa. She's just a terribly written character, because she represents the spunky peasant girl trope which Martin has expressly said he disliked. There's no way that a young women could walk around battlefields without a chaperone back talking nobles in Westeros. And all in all she just strikes me as an attempt to make Jeyne "cooler" and more "exotic." 

 

Me too.  her character was immersion breaking.  We've been led to believe, over and over, that Westeros is a male-dominated midieval society, and that women alone are very vulnerable especially in times of war.  For example, the three women Brienne finds hanging in a tree, or Cercei's comments to Sansa about the fates of the women in KL if the city is sacked.

 

The idea that Dr. Talisa Medicine Woman would be able to ply her craft and not get kidnapped / raped / killed was so at odds with this setting that I didn't buy it for a second.  They should have at least made her attached to one of the Riverlords' households.  But then she wouldn't have been able to be so smug about her enlightened "I treat anyone who is injured, no matter what side they were fighting on" philosophy.

 

Next big event I'm looking forward to:  Shimpy's interpretation of

The Knight of the Laughing Tree

. 

[Delta1212]

I ask because those two are famous for having surprise twist endings that most of the audience didn't see coming. It's basically their thing.

And yet if you watch either of them knowing the twist, it is painfully obvious, to the point that you wonder how people don't understand exactly what's going on after two scenes.

(Full disclosure, I got spoiler on 6th Sense about a week before I first saw it and actually did figure out Fight Club about halfway through).

Still, a lot of people didn't figure these movies out until the reveal despite ample clues as to what was going on, because people are very good at missing the obvious when they aren't looking for it.

That happens a lot in this series. GRRM makes it really blatantly obvious what's coming pretty much every step of the way, but most people only pick up on a handful of the stuff that isn't outright stated unless they've been clued into it.

It's like when you're looking at a picture and can't figure out what the heck it is and then something clicks and it becomes next to impossible to figure out how you didn't recognize what it was immediately.

[nksarmi]

I like the book version so much more because it makes Robb seem so much less selfish.  I can see a wounded, grieving Robb fall into the arms of the woman who has been caring for him and not put much blame on him.  I can also see him marrying her because she is noble and he just made marrying her off impossible and he is freaking Ned Stark's son.  It all just made sense - even if it was a trap. And more to the point, he KNOWS he has screwed up with the Freys and desires to find a way to fix it.

 

On the show, Robb is insanely selfish and not even the slightest bit noble.  He is the commander of an Army, Lord/King of the North, and basically sacrifices ANY chance he has at victory to marry for love.  And if I recall correctly, he seems rather cavalier about pissing off Frey and doesn't really seem to understand how much he lost in that moment.

 

To me, in the books - at this point - Robb might have lost the war, but he hasn't lost the North.  He could still turn his forces around, retake WF, and hold the North as King with the understanding that there is no way Tywin could invade and take it from him.  He just needs to make peace with Frey.  I can't remember if the show has the feel of - well I can still hold the North or not.

[Haleth]

Add me to the I Hated Talisa Club. I can't tell you how much I shook my fist at the tv whenever she and her too modern notions invaded my living room. Just one of the bad decisions the show writers made.

Anyway... surprise! We've all been waiting for this!

As for the Westerlings, I thought they were opportunists, jumping on whichever ol' bandwagon happened to be winning the war. Robb? Let's toss Jeyne into his bed. Robb loses his head? It was all a plot, Tywin. Yeah, that's the ticket. We were spying for you.

[Protar]

Me too.  her character was immersion breaking.  We've been led to believe, over and over, that Westeros is a male-dominated midieval society, and that women alone are very vulnerable especially in times of war.  For example, the three women Brienne finds hanging in a tree, or Cercei's comments to Sansa about the fates of the women in KL if the city is sacked.

 

The idea that Dr. Talisa Medicine Woman would be able to ply her craft and not get kidnapped / raped / killed was so at odds with this setting that I didn't buy it for a second.  They should have at least made her attached to one of the Riverlords' households.  But then she wouldn't have been able to be so smug about her enlightened "I treat anyone who is injured, no matter what side they were fighting on" philosophy.

 

Next big event I'm looking forward to:  Shimpy's interpretation of

The Knight of the Laughing Tree

. 

 

See this is one of my big issues with the show's treatment of Westeros' patriarchy. They will happily claim "historical accuracy" in order to justify the sensationalisation (totally a word spell checker!) of assault and sexual abuse but the moment they have a cool idea they'll throw it out the window. They needed Robb and Talisa to have a meet/cute and for her to look smart so there she is. They're not consistent in their depiction so they're clearly being hypocritical and the show then cannot properly explore the issues that it could have been. 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Protar

[nksarmi]

Delta 1212 - great analogy.  I too was spoiled for Sixth Sense before I saw it and I spent the entire movie wondering when I would have figured it out because it really IS there all along. I still remember the hospital scene going "come on - everyone HAD to have known then, right?"

 

I think in the books, the doom isn't as easy to see coming because Robb really does seem to recognize the slight he has paid Frey and seems to want to make amends.  I think he believed Edmure (heir of the Riverlands) would be enough.  I remember at one point thinking, oh hell, just take two wives and get the Frey one pregnant first - that might placate the old man!

[stillshimpy]

I ask because those two are famous for having surprise twist endings that most of the audience didn't see coming. It's basically their thing.

 

Yes, I guessed that was why and had already answered.  In Fight Club, unless you've read the book, you can't guess.  If you're one of the handful of people who saw the 6th Sense before everyone in the world knew there was a twist....which I weirdly was....Dude, it's a REALLY BORING MOVIE.  

 

For real.  I heard an ad on the radio, so all of the advertising is "I see dead people."  You go into knowing, "I see dead people."   I'm not positive, but it may have been on the damned movie poster, but it sure as hell was in the radio commercial and that twist actually worked primarily because it's a painfully boring movie without that twist....and it's not comparable to this because a full book previously there's a dead king, with the head of a Wolf in Dany's vision and people run all over the place calling Robb "The Young Wolf".  

 

So it would be more like watching the Sixth Sense, having missed the advertisement movie posters and being surprised that "Oh holy buckets, that kid can see dead people? Shocker!"  Rather than "Wow, Bruce Willis was dead all along!"  

 

That Robb was doomed was pretty broadly hinted at, but I can see why the Red Wedding would just floor people regardless, because guessing he was doomed in that manner would be damned hard.  The doomed part?  Not as difficult.  

 

Guessing that Jeyne was a set up?  That seems a given.  Her father was sworn to the Lannisters.  They left their daughter alone with Robb?  Right, oh sure.  

It's funny that people really objected to Talisa because "No way would a woman be unchaperoned on the battlefield"  ....but left alone in a bedroom with a sixteen year old seemed more plausible?   I really do understand the objections to Oona Chaplin, among other things the actors had very little chemistry together, but the implausibility that she would be unchaperoned on the battlefield doesn't strike me as any more outrageous than "They left their maiden daughter.  Alone with a sixteen year old?  Uh....whoa.  And that didn't seem like a setup to absolutely everyone?"  

 

ETA:  

I think in the books, the doom isn't as easy to see coming because Robb really does seem to recognize the slight he has paid Frey and seems to want to make amends.

 

Oh, I already agree with that.  Although, again, Wolf's Head King was dead at a wedding feast.  So I don't think the whole "married Jeyne" would have hinted at the "this will be the thing that will get Robb killed"....but rather I think it's sort of clear that Robb is going to die.  It's also sort of clear that Jeyne has to have been a setup.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[jellyroll2]

I have never seen or met a book first fan who saw the Red Wedding coming. It floored everyone who hadn't been spoiled for it. I still remember where I was, where I was even sitting and what time it was when I read it. It just left this numb, hollow sick feeling inside. So no, despite the foreshadowing, I've never heard of anyone who prophesied it happening just from the HoTU or any other vision. It only makes sense after the fact. I think the Sixth Sense and Fight Club comparisons are apt. Because I think for a lot of people they didn't see the plot twist coming until it came. And then you were like, "I should have seen that coming" when you go back and look at everything.

 

I didn't HATE Talisa but she was definitely not my favorite. I do know that they basically changed so much about her GRRM pretty much told them to change the name because who they were writing was not Jeyne Westerling. I didn't like that they had Robb marry for love in the show, despite his agency in doing so. The "I chose her honor over my own" is so much grayer even though much more foolish.

[WindyNights]

@shimpy The reason most people didn't spot the RW or Robb's demise coming was because even if it was telegraphed to us, the books overwhelm us, especially in the HOTU chapter, with so much information that you end up not digging to deeply into it or eventually forget about it.

Also I think you're giving Tywin more credit that he deserves. I can't say why yet but just wait and see is all I can say.

[Delta1212]

Yes, I guessed that was why and had already answered. In Fight Club, unless you've read the book, you can't guess. If you're one of the handful of people who saw the 6th Sense before everyone in the world knew there was a twist....which I weirdly was....Dude, it's a REALLY BORING MOVIE.

For real. I heard an ad on the radio, so all of the advertising is "I see dead people." You go into knowing, "I see dead people." I'm not positive, but it may have been on the damned movie poster, but it sure as hell was in the radio commercial and that twist actually worked primarily because it's a painfully boring movie without that twist....and it's not comparable to this because a full book previously there's a dead king, with the head of a Wolf in Dany's vision and people run all over the place calling Robb "The Young Wolf".

So it would be more like watching the Sixth Sense, having missed the advertisement movie posters and being surprised that "Oh holy buckets, that kid can see dead people? Shocker!" Rather than "Wow, Bruce Willis was dead all along!"

That Robb was doomed was pretty broadly hinted at, but I can see why the Red Wedding would just floor people regardless, because guessing he was doomed in that manner would be damned hard. The doomed part? Not as difficult.

Re Fight Club and how obvious it is:

If you rewarch it, it's actually really, really obvious. I didn't figure it out the first time until right after he sleeps with Helena Bonham Carter the first time and Brad Pitt left the room and said not to mention him right before she walked in. At that point, it was a case of "Ok, he's totally all in this guy's head" at least for me.

Upon rewatch, though, it's painfully obvious. I watched it with my parents after I saw it the first time because I wanted to see if my mom would figure it out, and I was stunned at how blatant it was. Brad Pitt is flickering in and out of existence in the background during the first scene or so. The narrator gets cut off at a scene break right before giving his name. He's constantly making little references like how beating himself up strangely reminded him of his first fight with Tyler for some reason.

It's really very blatant.

[Protar]

I do think that you're definitely benefiting from hindsight Shimpy. Though the Wolf head vision does seem very obvious, I think many readers are just overwhelmed by the visions and don't really dwell on them too much. You're quite a rare reader in that a.) you know the broad plot and b.) you're analysing quite a lot as you go. Most readers miss things and don't dwell on them. I mean case in point - Unless I'm much mistaken you didn't notice the dragon flying over Winterfell in Clash of Kings ;)

[nksarmi]

Crap, there was a dragon in Winterfell in Clash of Kings!?!?!  The things you people make me Google!

[stillshimpy]

You are mistaken, Protar, I just don't mention everything I notice, because there's a lot but the wolves saw it, right? 

 

Are you guys actually reading the specifics of what I'm saying, by the way? I'm not trying to be unkind, but  I keep saying, "Yeah, I can totally still believe that the Redd Wedding would have shocked the shit out of everyone, because it is so horrible."  and you all keep replying, "No, no one saw the Red Wedding coming and you're benefiting from hindsight." in reply. 

 

But I am assuming that people had to know, "Wow, Robb's going to die somehow."  and that the thing with Jeyne seems really, really like a setup....not for the Red Wedding....just "wow, that's a setup."  

 

The Red Wedding still shocking the hell out of everyone and understandably so is not something I'm disputing. 

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy