Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Trisan]

I've hit the Dolorous Edd portions of the proceedings, if that's not obvious.

 

 

Triskan here (I've lost the password on that account, but somehow managed to remember my old account's one - this one...)

 

Glad you met the funniest character of the story ! (Perhaps now that you've met the book counterpart you remember the show one... because even if he's cruelly underused on screen, Ben Crompton - playing him - is perfect in the role !)

Edited August 3, 2015 by Arkash

[Haleth]

I adore Dolorous Edd, the love child of Rodney Dangerfield and Eeyore.  His bon mots provide some much needed humor.

 

Dany's very warped view of her family history is frustrating but understandable.  With Visarys as her only source of information she wasn't likely to hear any opposing opinions.

[Eegah]

Sometime in Season 4 it hit me that Edd has actually made hardly any wisecracks on the show. After his introductory line "I was born in a place like this, later I fell on hard times," his "wit" was mostly translated to being an asshole to Sam for the rest of season 2 and a bit of 3, and ever since he's just been a random Watch member with lines. At least he got to drop the Scythe.

 

One thing that really struck me on rereading Dany's story from Clash: the description of Xaro is pretty much the show's Spice King. So they basically split the role in two so he could kill off a character we were familiar with during his takeover.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Eegah

[Triskan]

Well, at least Edd "had the Wall", besides droping the scythe ! 

 

But he's still alive in the show, so I hope he'll get more lines next season ! I've always felt like he should be the last character standing on page, so glad he's still around on screen ! 

 

(Yeah, I found back my password).

Edited August 3, 2015 by Triskan

[Eegah]

I'm hoping his end will be something like in the awesome fanfic The North Remembers, where he first apologizes to everyone as there's no way the White Walkers would be attacking if he wasn't there, and then his very final words after his heroic sacrifice: "Oh, it figures."

[stillshimpy]

Oh boy, okay, so still more "Tryion's really good at playing this game...and loves Shae..."  also, Martin probably really shouldn't write detailed sex scenes.  The less I hear about what Tryion and Theon do with their bits and parts, the better and I guess sooner or later I'll get my wish on that.  Poor Tyrion.  It's actually making the outcome to Shae's story retroactively more poignant.  

 

So I'm beginning to understand why everyone is so "So what do you think about the Direwolves?" and the extreme disappointment the fans must have felt in the show's depiction of them.  I'm really still pissed as hell about that stuff, so I'll try not to go on about my anger issues with depicting animal abuse, but the wolves are actually the Stark children's spirit animals.  They all dream of them and are connected to them.  Interesting that Jon has his own also.  

 

So Jojen's dream about the Freys eating decayed meat does mean they are the boys Theon kills.  At least they aren't charming or anything, but poor Bran.  So afraid of remembering what got him pushed out that window.  

 

Ramsay married Lady Hornwood by force and Manderly seized her lands?  So Robb would have known there was trouble with the Boltons and in his ranks before that wedding.  

 

(I've been noting down things here and there to remember to talk about them, because there is a metric ton of stuff going on here that wasn't covered in the series at all) 

 

I feel like I ought to have been able to tell who the hostages were at Harrenhall  -- the guy with the fat mustache and the one with the white suns on black velvet -- but like Arya, I wasn't paying as much attention to all of that as Sansa had.  I can see how that probably kept fans of the books busy for eons though.  Memorizing all the various house banners and sigils.   

 

Okay, so the Bloody Mummers/Brave Companions and Voat Hargo (didn't not down his name and you just wouldn't even believe the fumes in my house today, counters being glued at the seams) all had my attention.  I take it they must ride Zorses?  

 

Poor freaking Arya's story is so much sadder on the page and again, the story gives reasons that the series would have done well to add to everything.  Since the series went out of its way to include Ned's "If you sentence a man to death, you owe it to him to wield the blade yourself" stuff has it make sense as to WHY ARYA USED UP HER DEATH WISHES SO LAMELY AT FIRST.   

 

Yet another, okay, that was flippin' maddening in the TV series and in the book, not only is it clear why, it is concisely conveyed.  But I wanted her to name The Mountain (knowing full well she would not) for that ghastly freaking tale of gang rape on that poor girl. 

 

That's the first time the book just made me cry.  The description Martin used got to me.  Yesterday afternoon as I was taking the dogs out -- well there's an insanely long story about a litter of rabbit kits that has not fared well since we moved in with our two dogs, both of whom have hunting dog lineage (although neither has ever been used for those purposes)  and we've primarily been successful.   I'll spare you the lengthy description of the lengths I had to go to to save last night's rabbit, but to sum up?  It was not an easy task.  I felt like somewhere a rabbit warren likely just lit their version of a candle for the acrobatics and heretofore unexplored track and field star moves I pulled.   So describing her as flopping around like a rabbit made me burst into tears.  

 

The show has made such horrible use of rape and so often it is about everyone other than the rape victim, but that was the most horrible passage of them all.  I understand that it is supposed to be.  That out of all the people who richly deserve a good and righteous "you need to be put down and out" , that being the only person to feel anything for that Arya being the only person to listen to the story and feel anything for the girl  is what motivates Arya to name this guy, who really is no more or less awful than so many of them, but he laughs at that girl and her father's pain.  Tells it like it's hilarious.  That's what makes Arya decide that if she can do one thing, at least she can remove that from the world.  Also because, I would assume,  something hideous happens to the Inn-Keeper's daughter specifically because her father tries to do what is right and trust in honor in that brutal world and his daughter pays for it, I see the echo of Arya's own fate in all of that too.  

 

Still, damn, what a rough passage.  

[Delta1212]

I remember prior to season 4 a casting call went out for "Innkeeper's Daughter" and a lot of people thought they were going to film this scene to reintroduce the Mountain before his big fight later in the season.

Turns out it was just for a minor role in the tavern brawl with Arya and the Hound where she got Needle back.

Thankfully.

[Eegah]

Certain people (let's go ahead and call them dipshits) insisted that there was nothing wrong with Sansa's storyline in Season 5, because rape is a regular thing in the books too. Which rather ignores the fact that the execution of those scenes absolutely matters, and what we saw with Sansa was absolutely the wrong way to do it (and it really didn't help that it largely came off like one of those horrible misogynist fanfics where a female character the writer doesn't like is raped just for the hell of it).

 

I suspect that they had intended to include Lady Hornwood's story at first, since they went to the trouble of throwing in a reference to them in Season 1 (Bran derails Luwin's lesson on the Houses' mottos by bringing up the Martells' "Unbowed, unbent, unbroken" and then the Hornwoods' "Righteous in wrath").

[Protar]

Well let's talk about the Sansa stuff when we get to it. There's many rants about that bottled up inside me, but we're nowhere near that point. 

[stillshimpy]

Agreed, I'm sure we will want to practically join hands and let the Wonder Twin Powers of Rage Activate, or something when it comes to the Sansa stuff. 

 

For the moment, I stopped mid-chapter to say: Hey, I found the peach scene!!  And wow, is it ever nothing, at all, like the Stonewall Jackson "eats a peach and observes what a glorious day it is while looking at his own, slaughtered men.  Like a complete sociopath...who liked peaches and cared nothing for  human suffering or life."  

 

But that was like something out of Monty Python.   I'd say it was like something out of Cutthroat Island ("Give me the map!" "Give me...a kiss first!") but I think this predates that.  

 

Also, there is one of the vague allusions to Renly's relationship with Loras, at long last.  Book Renly is so fun. I'm sure his fans nearly had a seizure over his treatment int he series.  

 

But I stopped mid-chapter because I was having such a good time, "This is hilarious..." and then I remembered "...oh, except for what's about to happen to Renly.  Jeez, story."  

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy, now you totally get why I love Renly so, eh? *sniffle*

[glowbug]

The casting for Renly was so bad. I don't know what they were thinking. He looked nothing like his book counterpart and I never believed the character on the show could be a serious contender for the throne. The book Renly was so much better.

[nksarmi]

Certain people (let's go ahead and call them dipshits) insisted that there was nothing wrong with Sansa's storyline in Season 5, because rape is a regular thing in the books too. Which rather ignores the fact that the execution of those scenes absolutely matters, and what we saw with Sansa was absolutely the wrong way to do it (and it really didn't help that it largely came off like one of those horrible misogynist fanfics where a female character the writer doesn't like is raped just for the hell of it).

 

I suspect that they had intended to include Lady Hornwood's story at first, since they went to the trouble of throwing in a reference to them in Season 1 (Bran derails Luwin's lesson on the Houses' mottos by bringing up the Martells' "Unbowed, unbent, unbroken" and then the Hornwoods' "Righteous in wrath").

Yea there is so much we can't say about this until shimpy gets to it, but when she does - all I can say is I can't wait to see what she says about it.

[Eegah]

And now the poor guy's stuck as a way too good looking Charles Manson on Aquarius. What the hell is his agent doing?

[Lavignac]

 

So I did read about Dorreah and was momentarily puzzled by her death, as a loyal friend to Dany, and still valued as such.  I guess it was a characterization decision for Dany?  To explain why she was so untrusting of everyone and grew more and more removed?  It's not like she needed more reason, but as for why they would do that to the actress, that's actually doing her a giant favor.  Being at the heart of a meaty betrayal plot, rather than the faithful handmaiden who turns up her toes and dies of desert consumption at the first stiff wind, makes for a better acting resume.  Using an actor for more and varied work usually means that they liked them quite a bit, if they are given a far more interesting death.   Dying like Boo Radley, the weenie version, without any heroics just doesn't make for a good audition reel, I guess. many things are possible, but what a shame. 

Roxanne McKee, the actress playing Doreah, is actually now the lead female role in the TV series Dominion, a kinda post-apocalyptic fantasy series with religious themes. They're in their second season.

[ambi76]

Also, there is one of the vague allusions to Renly's relationship with Loras, at long last. Book Renly is so fun. I'm sure his fans nearly had a seizure over his treatment int he series.

 

Ah, yes, Stannis's "In your bed she's going to die that way." remark. If Stannis fucking Baratheon knows about your bed time habbits your "closet"-situation is dire indeed. ;o)

 

A problem with the vague allusions to Renly/Loras in the books is, that everytime it comes up someone is usually pissed about Renly or Loras or about something related to them, so the "OMG that gay stuff is a total show invention1!1!" folks always use the "but those people were just talking trash, there is no way they're serious" denial. *sigh*

 

There is already an even more vague allusion in the Catelyn chapter before this one (where we meet Brienne). Where Cat without knowing observes that Renly's affections for Margaery seem superficial, while his affection for Loras seems more serious.

 

As for Renly fans having seizures about show!Renly. Yeah, probably all three of them. Because of what is about to happen to the poor lad and the insane amount of Stannis love in fandom he is not a very popular character from what I've gathered.

Edited August 4, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

He's just easily forgotten I think. Doesn't get much page time, dies early into the second book and his claim is most tenuous. Joffrey believes he's Robert's legitimate heir, no matter how horrible he is. Stannis actually is Robert's legitimate heir, Robb and Balon both just want kingship over their own domains that their ancestors where kings of (well, Balon wants to do a bit of plundering also). Renly's claim to the throne is completely unveiled ambition. It doesn't endear him to a lot of people.

 

I rather he like him though. His point about the ridiculousness of inherited rule is perfectly true and I think he would have been a pretty good king. While I'm definitely a Stannis fan, Stannis is more of a war time king only to me. Renly I think would be an amazing peace time king and well...we don't know how good he is at war. He can garner enough favour to bring together an enormous army, but we don't see how good a tactician he is. 

 

If Renly and Stannis could have put aside their differences and formed a coalition, Renly ruling in peace and Stannis in war I think that would have been the best outcome for the realm. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Protar

[stillshimpy]

A problem with the vague allusions to Renly/Loras in the books is, that everytime it comes up someone is usually pissed about Renly or Loras or about something related to them, so the "OMG that gay stuff is a total show invention1!1!" folks always use the "but those people were just talking trash, there is no way they're serious" denial. *sigh*

 

Huh?  There are people who don't realize Renly is gay?  I'm assuming that Loras actually does stick around and that his orientation is reasonably well known, but Renly has a freaking Rainbow Guard.   Only if Martin had gone that extra "The Friends of Dorothy....the Usurper" mile could he have gotten much clearer on it.  

 

Now, I will fully admit that the Show decided to ditch all characteristics of Renly -- having a good sense of humor, being pretty keenly attuned to his brother's failings without plotting to take his Throne before he died, clearly being genuinely fond of Brienne and having the good sense to show outward affection towards Margaery -- they ditched all of that in favor of basically making Renly's sexual orientation his only defining characteristic.   They whittled him down to his sexuality and then turned that all up to Cliches Aplenty on the meter.  

 

But in addition to that -- I almost said "worse than that" but it isn't actually worse than that, because the manner in which the show used Renly being gay is beyond borderline offensive and into "if that's not actively homophobic, it is only barely removed from homophobia" because show Renly is a pawn of his lover.  He's afraid of blood (that one just made me furious....because in that world it's the same as declaring someone weak) .  He's a tool of the Margarey and Loras and he has almost no detectable will of his own.   Plus, again, writing a scene in which the poor man nearly swoons at the thought of having to do the deed with Margaery to beget an heir ....and then having her offer to go and get her brother....while it makes Margaery look really practical and kind of cool in her own right...it makes Renly seem foolish and witless....and again, a complete pawn.  

 

Anyway, it's been delightful to discover that he had a personality that didn't include having him leap atop chairs to escape breasts, or blood, or mice or whatever other stereotypical "unmanly" thing the show could conjure (still pissed off, HBO) ....and that Martin still made it pretty clear that Renly is gay without having to invite us into anyone's shaving chambers.  

 

Stannis has fans?  Well, that's alarming to me.  A lot of the stuff at Dragonstone was interesting and I guess I'll have to wait and see if Stannis develops a personality, but he still just MURDERED HIS BROTHER with black magic rather than fight him.  

 

Stannis was all "Blah blah blah, duty...blah blah...honor....blah....right" but it was Renly who wouldn't launch an attack in the night because it wasn't honorable and Stannis who was sending out Shadow Assassins.  

 

So far, he's pretty much the same guy from the book....only whinier.  "I should have been Robert's Hand, wah!"  What a charmer.  

 

Although, once I again, I enjoyed the "History is in the eye of the beholder and memory a slippery thing..." visit with Renly well remembering the look on a man's face before Stannis catapulted him from the walls....and someone else countering with "Huh? No.  Stannis thought we might have to eat our dead, so we didn't throw anyone over any walls."  

 

Because you just know which one was true and which wasn't.  

 

Stupid detail that it would have been fun to see on the show, but once again goes to "Stuff costs money and crowns aren't actually practical things to run around in when you get right down to it" are the various crowns of the various kings.  Rob's very simple one, Stannis's surprisingly flashy one,  Renly's "No really, they made it pretty freaking obvious the man is gay in a lot of the choice" circle of flowers.  

 

But there is one thing that Martin keeps doing that cracks me up:  He has people affixing things to their helmets that are just gigantic.  A foot and a half of antlers?  

 

Yeah, there's a reason you couldn't wear that sucker into battle, Martin.    Torque in battle is kind of tough thing to handle when people are swinging stuff around.  Having giant protrusions from ones helmet would defeat the bloody purpose of wearing one.  "Aim your hammer at those antlers.  Hell, aim a solid stick.  Whack your way into the succession, just trust me on this....Swing Away!"  

Edited August 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Eegah]

It did give us Tyrion head-stabbing a horse, at least. I imagine they decided not to even try to adapt that pretty early on.

 

Before Stephen Dillane was cast, my preferred choice for Stannis was Christopher Eccleston. Though given his famed distaste for being stuck in one role for long, I wasn’t too disappointed it didn’t happen.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Eegah

[Haleth]

For all your criticism of how Renly is portrayed, the way Loras is written for the show is 10x worse.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Haleth

[Protar]

Of course Stannis has fans! 

 

I mean don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like to go get drinks with the guy. But I admire is iron will and tenacity. I really think of the selection of candidates we have he would make for the best king. Which is probably more of an indictment of the selection we have but nonetheless, he wins that contest. And (as I believe you were spoiled on before starting this thread Shimpy?) some of the stuff that happen in the show makes him far more obviously villainous than in the books. 

 

All that said, a lukewarm reception to Stannis in Clash of Kings is to be expected. And maybe you'll never convert. A lot of people don't like Stannis. 

 

By the way, I was unsure from your post - did you get to Renly's death?

[chandraReborn]

On the whole Doreah thing--I think it made book readers upset because it tore apart a really positive relationship between women. A lot of times, friendships between women that exist in the books are either cut or turned into rivalries on the show. While these rivalries serve as a source of tension, they also play into the idea that all women are always in competition with other women, most often for the attention of a man. An example of this from the first book: Sansa respects Septa Mordane as her teacher. In the show, she makes catty remarks like "Oh, wait, I just realized I don't care." So even though Doreah's death is anticlimactic, it shows us the costs of crossing the Red Wastes and shows us Dany's caring and tender side, which I don't think the show is very interested in portraying. 

[Protar]

On the whole Doreah thing--I think it made book readers upset because it tore apart a really positive relationship between women. A lot of times, friendships between women that exist in the books are either cut or turned into rivalries on the show. While these rivalries serve as a source of tension, they also play into the idea that all women are always in competition with other women, most often for the attention of a man. An example of this from the first book: Sansa respects Septa Mordane as her teacher. In the show, she makes catty remarks like "Oh, wait, I just realized I don't care." So even though Doreah's death is anticlimactic, it shows us the costs of crossing the Red Wastes and shows us Dany's caring and tender side, which I don't think the show is very interested in portraying. 

 

This is a very good point. 

 

It was also just incredibly cheesy and done without any rhyme or reason. We don't see Doreah's justification for betraying Dany, so it came across as a rather stereotypical evil woman with her evil sex appeal. Especially so had they included the deleted scene of her killing Irri while talking about erotic asphyxiation. 

[Dev F]

It was also just incredibly cheesy and done without any rhyme or reason. We don't see Doreah's justification for betraying Dany, so it came across as a rather stereotypical evil woman with her evil sex appeal. 

 

As with a number of things in season 2, I feel like they were initially trying for a more nuanced story but then just never followed through. They seemed to be setting Doreah up for some sort of crisis of faith, when she asks Dany what her brother told her about dragons and she replies, "My brother didn't know anything about dragons. He didn't know anything about anything," and Doreah seems rather taken aback. Of course, the one thing Doreah seemed to admire about Viserys was that he did know about dragons, so perhaps the original idea was that Doreah was going to turn away from Dany after deciding that she was betraying her heritage or her brother's memory or something like that.

 

And actually, that conversation is connected to one of the other dropped plot threads of early season 2 -- they're talking about the fact that Dany can't figure out why her dragons refuse to eat, a problem that is never mentioned again. I always figured that originally there was a scene in the next episode where Dany burns Rakharo's head to comfort a grieving Irri ("We will build him a funeral pyre. And I promise you, Rakharo will ride with his ancestors tonight"), and realizes from the dragons' reaction to the smell that they only eat cooked meat. If that's the case, perhaps there was more tension between Doreah and Dany that got cut along with it.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Dev F

[ambi76]

For all your criticism of how Renly is portrayed, the way Loras is written for the show is 10x worse.

 

As Loras fangirl I mostly agree but what pisses me of on top of that is, that when D&D decided to retcon him into his older brother in season 3 they even didn't really do anything with that either. If he is supposed to be more Willas than Loras on the show now, fine, grumble, then they can do whatever the fuck they want but do something. And no having him nabbed by" brother" Lancel of all people doesn't count.

 

... but Renly has a freaking Rainbow Guard.

 

And GRRM swears up and down this has nothing to do with him being gay (he claims he had no idea that the rainbow is a queer icon when he wrote that) but the rainbow was just ment as symbol of the faith of "the Seven". Not sure if I buy it but then straight old white men can really be that oblivious at times.

Edited August 4, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

For all your criticism of how Renly is portrayed, the way Loras is written for the show is 10x worse.

 

In truth,  I've complained, at length about the way Loras is portrayed, earlier in this thread and then AT LENGTH elsewhere, but part of the reason I didn't mention him in relationship to anything here is that I have nothing to contrast his actual characterization to yet.  

 

In the books Loras is currently just a name and some hair, so it isn't that I think "but they did a dandy job with Loras"  I'm just waiting to see if I really still want tie someone over at HBO up with a bunch of tulle-and-or-taffeta over that bloody "I dreamed of my wedding and pretty and swishy it would be" shit with Sansa that, I pretty much guarantee when it aired, you actually physically heard me screaming about that one.  You probably just didn't realize the faint whisper of far away rage wafting towards you was related to my freaking the every living fuck out over that one. 

 

And although I can say with some certainty, given the relatively diplomatic way Martin has dealt with Renly's sexuality, that Loras in the book does not sit there chewing mopely on a hangnail, until Sansa starts talking about her girlish wedding dreams and Loras proceeds to morph into a copy of Modern Bride in Westerosi, practically dreaming of his dress and talking about his special day.  

 

Not, mind you, that there would be a damned thing wrong with a man having thought, with an eye toward detail and elegance, about details of his wedding and had it existed as a part of a larger part of a full characterization, okay, fine.  He has fashion sense.  

 

But that's not what went down in that scene. 

 

Trust me on this: the How Loras is Depicted Lambasting has only been left out of this discussion because at present, in the books?  He's had fewer lines than Brienne.  

 

chandraReborn, those are actually good and valid points, but in fairness to the story surrounding Dany it takes a gender neutral position on people screwing her over/using her/lying to her/deceiving her or at least has men and women doing that on a regular basis.  It's a screwy form of equality, I suppose, but it exists. 

 

However, it's a particularly good point about Dorreah because whereas I can't honestly say that this show depicts many/any good friendships ...they've gone out of their way to give Jon his own little Band of Brothers, some of whom are duplicitous as hell, but for the most part, loyal and true.  

 

So I can't even say "Yeah, it's one of those shows where everyone kind of sucks and there are no friendships" because there are.  

 

They did seem to rectify that later with Missendai (no clue how to spell that)....and you know what's freaky?  I've watching Dominion and can't place the actress who plays Dorreah.    I'll have to go look at IMDB.  

Edited August 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

Shimpy doesn't know that about Loras yet!

[ambi76]

I thought she mentioned already that the "third son" thing was news to her and it was said that that was a retcon even in the confines of the show? (GRRM calls Loras explicitly a younger son of House Tyrell in some season one promotional material). But yeah Loras characterization in the books only happens in ASOS and AFFC so that's far off.

 

"I dreamed of my wedding and pretty and swishy it would be" shit with Sansa that, I pretty much guarantee when it aired, you actually physically heard me screaming about that one.

 

Prepare to scream even louder. But not yet. Now is shadow baby time. :-(

Edited August 4, 2015 by ambi76

[John Potts]

OK, this is going to be going back a bit, because I only just read through this thread:

 

Shanna Marie So Cersei seems to have pretty much decided that being a woman is the sole reason she didn't get everything she wants in life. She's not entirely wrong.

 

 

I always liked Tywin's (in show) line, which I don't remember from the books but I think is pretty true to his character: "I don't disdain you for being a woman: I disdain you because you're not half as clever as you think you are." Cersei really does come across as somebody who's all "I'm just so brilliant! Did you see that brilliant thing I did?" while the real players are all, "You've never heard of the concept of playing it close to your chest, have you?"

 

Haleth As for the wedding, it's my opinion you can skip those pages if you wish

 

 

 

I've watched "What the Flick's" reviews (they're on YouTube and can be quite interesting) of Game of Thrones and they make an interesting observation: the advantage of reading the book is that you can put it down if it "gets too much" or plough through it quickly until it gets better* whereas on the screen you have to watch it unfold as it was filmed (well, you can pause the DVD or turn it off, I suppose)

* The end of Book 7, perhaps!

 

stillshimpy So I never paid a lot of attention to Davos and the strange "You have my loyalty for cutting off my fingers, you chilly jerk"  plot point.

 

I always loved pirate dude's take on it - "The man cuts off your fingers and you fall in love with him!" Though to be fair to Stannis (the Mannis - and yes, I am a Stan fan), I'm guessing that the penalty for smuggling was death, so he really was being unusually merciful.

 

stillshimpy finding out if Brienne is anywhere near as luckless and useless as she tends to be in the series

 

 

Don't get your hopes up

 

nksarmi  Olenna - who would have helped Sansa if she could have - was pretty much powerless to do so against Tywin.

 

That's one take on it - I'd say Olenna was more of a "Don't want to kill Sansa, but she's expendable if necessary"

 

I tend to add a couple of years to the children's ages. Also it was a little distracting that people were so solicitous of whether Sansa had "flowered" yet because I can't help thinking "Bitch, please - once she's hit six foot, it's a safe bet she's through puberty!" (OK, Sophie Turner is 5'9", she's not up to Gwendoline Christie's 6'3").

 

And on the Rainbow Guard thing: I can imagine that GRRM wrote it without considering "Rainbow = Gay" but to say he'd never heard of the concept requires a degree of disconnect from popular culture that seems unlikely, to say the least.

Edited August 4, 2015 by John Potts

[ambi76]

Well, John Potts, when we get to Olenna and Oberyn in ASOS there will be a schism. Mostly between me and almost all of the rest of fandom it seems, but yeah.

I'm more in line with your thinking re Olenna and not a fan of that particular Dornish man either. Shimpy will also be dissapointed to find out that Renly did not indeed care much for Brienne, except in the political sense.

Edited August 4, 2015 by ambi76

[John Potts]

Oh, and on the subject of victim blaming, I find it annoying when people go "I blame Ned/Catelyn/Sansa for all the bad things that happen!" because it always makes me think "You know who I blame? Cersei, Jamie* and Littlefinger." Sure, the good guys had their idiot moments but I blame the people pushing children out of windows, screwing their brothers or selling girls into sex slavery rather than the people who failed to take the most sensible course.

 

* Jamie seems to get a pass from a lot of people because he was led on by Cersei, but as the possessor of a dick I reckon he's responsible for where (and in whom) his ends up.

[Hecate7]

I don't care who people are screwing. That's their business. It's the throwing people out of windows etc...that I judge, and although Jaime is Cersei's right hand, he's always acting on HER behalf when he does something awful, which is why I blame her more.

[Autarch]

Shimpy

 

With regards to how Loras/Renly and Rhaegar/Lyanna=Jon Snow still come across as obvious in the books, I'd be interested to see your thoughts on the prequel novellas, particularly the third one; that is when you finish these books and if you are interested, of course. I won't say there's a lot there to miss, but there's a few obscure things that I missed until my second read through of the prequels, ones that made me question my original assumption that I still would've recognized certain subtleties (in the main books) if the show hadn't highlighted them.

[Lavignac]

They did seem to rectify that later with Missendai (no clue how to spell that)....and you know what's freaky?  I've watching Dominion and can't place the actress who plays Dorreah.    I'll have to go look at IMDB.

She's hard to miss when you're equipped with a Y chromosome ;-) Roxanne McKee plays Lady Claire Riesen, the general's daughter.

BTW it's spelled Missandei.

As for Renly and Loras, I liked how in the books they were both described as at least liking combat and jousting, which as equivalent to sports in the modern-day real world goes against "girly-gay" stereotypes. GRRM did state that the Rainbow Guard was supposed to evoke the 7 rainbow colours as equivalent to the 7 aspects of God, just like the septons' crystals split sunlight in the same spectre of colours.

[John Potts]

Hecate7 I don't care who people are screwing. That's their business.

 

Oh, I don't either - but if by screwing around you are committing an act of treason (since it throws suspicion on who's child the heir really is - rightly in this case) then perhaps you should consider if it's such a good idea? Yes, that's totally sexist (because here's no requirement for Robert to be faithful) but boo hoo, Cersei, you've got it better than 99% of women in the Kingdom, whose husbands also might be shtupping other women and don't have the consolation of getting drunk all day and terrorising their servants.

 

Also, I get the impression that most people aren't that bothered by Renly being gay (though they might snigger about it) so long as he was actually an effective King. Providing the guy could maintain law and order within the Kingdoms and produce a (preferably male) heir, most folks probably weren't bothered by who he was sleeping with. To use a historical example, it didn't bother folks that James I (of England) was a bit too fond of his male favourites so long as he maintained his (expanded) Kingdom. Edward II was deposed probably not so much because he was gay but because he lost control of Scotland, to the extent that the Scots were running wild in Northern England (the sack of York - as portrayed in Braveheart - did happen, but it was by Robert the Bruce after Bannockburn and not William Wallace years before).

Edited August 5, 2015 by John Potts

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I really only care who people are getting it on with when it comes to things like issues of consent and whether or not you have to murder MULTIPLE PEOPLE in order to keep the relationship going. 

 

Also, I blame Jaime MORE than I blame Cersei.  Acting on Cersei's behest?  I don't care.  soundly, roundly and completely actually makes it so much worse.  Now if I were to say to you, "Hey, here's a thought, tell me to do something morally reprehensible, outright wrong and violent, trust me, my reaction will set new standards in the 'if you aren't jesting, you better lawyer up, because...no' cateogry."  That wouldn't even come close to counting unless the person asking me was the great love of my life.  

 

In fact, I find it bizarre and completely disingenuous (and some sort of amusing meta-justification) when both Catelyn and Ned have a moment of "For my own children, would I not do the same?"   Well let's see:  Could I kill someone to protect my son's life?  Of course, but it would actually have to be "It's that person or my son and sorry That Person, even if I have to make inventive use of a cheese-grater, you are going down" but it is only if it is the only choice available that makes that even close to the thing I would do.  We're talking, "Axe-wielding maniac is blocking the door, heading for my son" type of "he will imminently die if I do not commit homocide" type of "your back is to the wall, choose!" for it to be justifiable in the "I did it to protect my own" category. 

 

However....it was NEVER that choice for Cersei and Jaime.  Not even limiting oneself to the very obvious:  "Gee, to keep this relationship going, we'll have to commit treason ....is it worth it?"  and the answer would be -- for anyone in possession of sense and reason -- probably not.  The answer for most would be "We should break up.  It's a big country, you go to the other end of it, it's not like there's skype, avoiding each other isn't the biggest challenge ever"  they are only in the same place because they choose to be.   

 

I do not believe in any of that "You cannot choose who you love!" stuff.  Sure.  Okay, but you know what you can choose?  What you do about it.  So break up.  But if you can't possibly see your way clear to do that, take a mountain of daddy's gold and head to the free cities where you can bone to your hearts' content.  Say things went way too far, you thought you could get away with it and before you knew it: Children whose lives are in peril should you be discovered ( aka: break the fuck up clue number 98421045)...but okay, let's say you're just THAT in love.  

 

Take that fucking mountain of gold that you doubtless can get your paws on, grab said spawn and head for the free cities.  Or other points.  Dye your hair.   Whatever.  You are rich, able bodied and the choices are plentiful.   

 

So when Ned and Catelyn, in one of the clunkier writing devices of this story, both consider the point of view of Jaime and Cersei protecting their children's lives and consider:  "But for my own child, would I truly do any different? Alas, alack, I cannot claim that I would....my empathy, I extend it."  it's a big enough load of bullshit to fertilize every garden, in every holdfast, in this fictional universe and every single other one, because it willfully pretends that there weren't a series of events ...a huge, huge, huge menu of "Make a different choice, you lust addled nitwits.  You want to get your freak on?  Go to funky town until you can't walk properly, I do not care. " 

 

But they weren't murdering people and attempting to murder children to protect any innocent babes, and Catelyn and Ned bloody well would know that.   When they started murdering people in order to keep doing their too-closely-related-do  they weren't doing it for love, they were doing it because they were okay with murdering people in any variety of circumstances.  

 

If it had just been about saving their children's lives, they could have done that in a huge slew of ways and lived more pleasant lives, in which they were always together.  If it was to keep a crown, then dude, that has NOTHING to do with having "I want to save the life of my child, first and foremost"  because the answer was, and always will be:  You guys can be together, but you can't have absolutely everything and you must thrive on this misery because you're very actively and purposefully choosing it every.single.day. 

 

And finally -- for the moment -- if they really did feel like, "But we simply can't give up power and our birthright and our souls and the fruit of our loins and weirdness...."  then all they needed to do was off Robert when they had an heir and spare.   A man they both actively despised, and not without some reason. 

 

I blame Cersei, but Jaime is actually MORE to blame, because he apparently isn't supposed to be a homicidal sociopath with shit for morals, brains and ethics.  

 

Good heavens.  I love my husband tremendously.   The day he says to me, "That kid has to DIE for us to stay together"  my response would be, "Wow, I love you so much....and it turns out that's an entirely fictional construct, because who the hell are you and....NO! Bye!" 

 

One of the more frustrating things about fiction is that it treats love as if it is a body snatcher.  The shit you would do in the name of love, is just the shit a person would do anyway, because love is not so transformative an experience that it robs you of autonomy, agency, individuality, choice or (and this key) responsibility for every choice one personally makes in the name (or by the excuse) of it. 

 

I don't care who people screw, that is their business.  What they do because of it and try to hide behind love to justify?  That's a different kettle of fertilizer.

Edited August 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I don't know how much of my opinion is formed from book vs show, but my general impression of Cersei and Jamie is that they are both really "off."  Like something in their childhood - perhaps being raised / not raised mostly by Tywin - sent them down a path of moral screwiness. 

 

I mean how often do you have to tell children that brothers and sisters don't have sex with one another in today's world?  You might - might - have to explain that we don't find it acceptable for people who are closely related (uncles/nieces, cousins, etc...) to have sex if they see some weird news story on TV, but somehow without explicitly stating the fact, children manage to pick up on the fact that sex among brothers and sisters is not acceptable.  And by the way, this is in a world where if you look real closely at old Bible stories, there were some sibling (or at least half-sibling) pairings going on for sure.

 

So it seems a little odd that by the time Cersei and Jamie were old enough to have sex that they a) didn't know what sex was (per Cersei's line about doing what the animals do) b) didn't realize you weren't supposed to do that with your sibling and c) lived such isolated lives that they couldn't experiment with others if they wanted to know about sex (I still find it odd that Cersei is the only woman Jamie has ever been with from youth to middle age adulthood).  For Cersei and Jamie to fall into the kind of sexual relationship described in the books, it seems like they must have been highly isolated and uneducated.  Yet we know they were being prepared for be a lord (Jamie) and a queen (Cersei) and they were exposed to many other people. 

 

The only other thing I can think of that would result in Cersei and Jamie ending up in the relationship they are in is abuse (probably sexual) visited on Cersei where she turned to Jamie for comfort in a sick and weird way and since she is clearly the dominant twin - the weirdness grew from there.  But we will probably never be treated to that as an explanation or anything else for that matter. 

 

All we can see in the books is that (to me) it seems that Cersei is the dominant one and no matter how good Jamie is at anything, combat, being a King's Guard, etc... his identity is wrapped up in her and she is his world.  The reverse does not seem to be true for Cersei at all.

 

Though I do agree that the whole "would I not do the same thing for my own children?" for Ned and Cat rings so untrue.  But to me, no one in the show or books, seems to have the reaction to Cersei and Jamie that they should, which is "what the heck went wrong in Casterly Rock that this happened to begin with?"

[Protar]

Well it's not like incest doesn't happen from time to time in the real world. I guess sometimes the gene which sparks the westermarck effect (the instinct that keeps us from finding those who we are raised with attractive) just fizzles and then...well then Jaime and Cersei happens. 

[Haleth]

Never mind. Problem resolved

Edited August 5, 2015 by Haleth

[Mya Stone]

Hey guys, let's keep casting talk (and future show speculation) out of this thread, k? Thanks!

[stillshimpy]

I think those are all fair points, nksarmi, and yes, incest still happens even in surroundings where it isn't quite as taboo.  In the construct of the show, there's the whole "The Targaryens married brother to sister for hundreds of years" (which explains kind of lot in and of itself) to preserve a bloodline.  Something that was actually practiced in Ancient Egypt and abandoned for the very obvious reasons that it -- let us understate this -- leads to significant problems over the course generations.  Although it's sort of fallacy that the genetic problems manifest almost instantly, they do actually appear and are part of the reason I laughed like a full-blown lunatic when I got a gander the young man they cast to play King Tut in some highly amusing miniseries due out later this summer.   

 

The Egyptians tried to keep that up to preserve a bloodline they claimed actually had to do with being a god-made-flesh.  Sort of hard to keep that up when things like cleft palates and club feet work their way into the lineage and stick like epoxy.   European royalty rather famously intermarried because of the same kind of "Royals are actually designated to rule by a Higher Power"  thing and then the daughters of one Queen (Victoria) managed to cut a bloody swath through the royal houses of most countries because of pesky hemophilia gene.  

 

But back to the fictional world: In this one incest doesn't seem to carry quite the same stigma, even if it is a case of "Are you kidding me?  Among many other things, it's a bad idea genetically" and marrying ones siblings is frowned upon, the thing that sort of tripped me out is that hardly anyone has the "Holy crap, really?!?" reaction, not just because of the "incest?  Bad idea" thing, but they're TWINS.   Just to up the "well, that's a new level of demented".  

 

Also, I still don't have a POV from Jaime or Cersei, so I have no idea what they are meant to be thinking other than the occasional "Cersei enters to her own foreboding soundtrack and is predictably evil."   I only have it from the show thus far that Jaime's only ever ....yeah....but here's the thing:  Cersei, the one who is clearly meant to be the more evil of the two and with fewer conflicts about....apparently much of anything...hasn't remained true to him, even outside of the "sold off to Robert Baretheon" part of it all.  

 

So yes, I think you likely have something that "even in a world where it doesn't carry quite the same stigma, something is off about Jaime" and oddly enough, it seems to be -- as presented by the show -- that he thinks of fidelity as being part of honor.  Yet breaks his Kingsguard Oath, etc. etc.  If the books have it that Jaime is also dyslexic, so is his honor code, because a little mixed up doesn't even begin to cover that.  

 

But I guess I will end up seeing what the book has to say. I'm assuming.  I am assuming that sooner or later one of the Lannister Twins gets a window into their mind from the reader's standpoint and if not?  Well...okay.  Interesting choice.   

[Triskan]

Well, you've reached one of the two points I was most eager for you to read in book 2 : the earlier than in the show introduction of the Reeds... damn, how frustrating it was to read you guys mistrust them when their arrival and oath in the books is so genuine and sincere ! 

 

The other point I was looking forward for you to reach... well, you've somehow reached it, but I'm not sure exactly where you are in the Winterfell / Theon PoV exactly, so I wont delve too much into it until I know exactly at what point you are ! (Edited because the initial post gave too much away).

Edited August 5, 2015 by Triskan

[Haleth]

The Lannisters kids certainly grew up entitled, thinking rules for civilized behavior don't apply to lions, not unlike many celebrity children in RL.

[Delta1212]

not for shimpy

Triskan, that's an incredibly leading question and I wouldn't be at all surprised if shimpy figured out what was going on solely from reading that, assuming she doesn't on her own.

[Triskan]

Delta : you're right ! I'm gonna rephrase that ! ;)

[Avaleigh]

I have some sympathy for the relationship between Jaime and Cersei. I also think it's bullshit that infidelity is a beheading offense for Cersei while Robert gets to freely fuck around and have as many bastards as he likes.

When I think about the society where Jaime and Cersei are growing up where Dany's parents, the ruling king and queen, are brother and sister and there are popular love songs like Prince Aemon's love for his sister Naerys (these are book 1 references btw no spoilers) I can see how it would make incest seem socially acceptable on some level.

Then you have the fact that Tywin did a real number on both of them to the point where they see all the other Houses save the Targaryens as somehow being less than, so Jaime or Cersei marrying a non Lannister or Targaryen was bound to feel like a step down. Then there's the whole everyone who isn't us is an enemy mentality that has been inflicted on them.

Then we have the twin bond that can't be played up in the show but is hugely significant for both characters.

There's more I want to say but I have to hold off. As far as the situation with Bran, I blame Jaime more but I understand why he thought he was saving five lives with that action.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Avaleigh

[ambi76]

I think it's actually kinda weird that sibling incest is still seen as such a taboo in Westeros in the general population after 300 years of great Targaryen influence. Personally I also don't give a fuck about consensual adult incest, but yeah, with Jaime & Cersei the political ramifications on top of the incest taboo is what makes their relationship so idiotic and dangerous. Especially since the dumb farks (well, mostly Jaime really

fucking Cersei besides Robert's passed out drunken ass, wth?

) lately insist on fucking in semi public places. Get a fucking room (strange towers and churches don't count)!

Edited August 5, 2015 by ambi76

[Delta1212]

I think I kind of see Jaime as a self-loathing drunk driver. A bit like he's an alcoholic and Cersei is his drink of choice.

What I mean by that is that, from the perspective of "Bran sees them in the tower together" once that happens, Bran might as well be an axe-wielding maniac coming after his children as far as outcomes are concerned, so I can see how he thought it would have been necessary to silence him at that point whether he wanted to or not.

But it was Jaime and Cersei's own actions that endangered him. They put themselves in a position where someone else's well-being was endangered because they were behaving irresponsibly and weren't concerned with who could get hurt in the process. It's there own fault that Bran found himself in a situation where Jaime had to push him out of the window.

I actually really like the alcoholic metaphor (it just occurred to me) for Jaime's behavior and personality, and can think of a few ways to extend the metaphor, but as always, I'll wait until we get a little further in the story.

[ambi76]

Kinda addicted to Cersei the "poor chap", isn't he?

The withdrawal is a thing of beauty though.

[nksarmi]

Well it's not like incest doesn't happen from time to time in the real world. I guess sometimes the gene which sparks the westermarck effect (the instinct that keeps us from finding those who we are raised with attractive) just fizzles and then...well then Jaime and Cersei happens. 

There is in fact a gene for that?  Cool.

 

Oh on this whole why doesn't anyone in Westerous freak out MORE over Jamie and Cersei thing...

 

(I mean really, I don't remember the books well enough but I can't think of a single example in the show where someone looked sick to their stomach when they found out or anything like that - honestly, they made WAY more of a big deal about Loras' gayness so far so I will just leave that little this show might be homophobic after all tidbit alone)

 

.....those who have just read/reread book one - did it seem like Dany and her brother had a sexualized relationship?  I mean, I think Dany's internal monologue demonstrates that she expected to marry her brother and on the show, he certainly doesn't demonstrate the normal protocols a brother would toward a sister, but I can't remember if the book hinted at him looking at her in a sexual way.  It seems like he just saw her a means to his throne - I didn't get the sense of any true attraction from him to her.

 

I have a feeling if things had gone differently, Viserys would have married Dany to produce a pure Targ child but he wouldn't have been her lover any more than necessary.  So I find them an interesting parallel to Jamie and Cersei for some reason.

Edited August 5, 2015 by nksarmi