Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WSmith84]

I think they were so enamoured with the idea of filming the stuff in the Frostfangs on location in Iceland, that they didn't consider whether it would (overall) have a negative effect on the whole thing. I really appreciate the effort that they put into it, because I know how much of a pain in the backside filming on location can be. But it did seem to affect the actors' performances, and the writing wasn't great either.

 

One thing from the show that bleeds into my head when reading the books is the idea that beyond the Wall is always covered in snow. In the show, it's always snowing. In the books that's not the case, but because I saw the show first I have to keep reminding myself of this fact.

[mac123x]

i.e. the endless verbal abuse on Ygritte's part

 

I honestly forgot that part, mainly because whenever I watch those episodes I fast forward through any scene with Rose Lesie in it.  Her affected accent goes through my head like a nail.

[GertrudeDR]

In the moment, I agree, Jon's reason for joining Mance was better in the show. However, it ignores something important. Jon witnesses an Other take a child and Mormont's response is, yeah, we know. What? You know about the White Walkers? So this has been happening for a while, huh? And if Mormont knew about it, Benjen should have at the very least and then so should Ned and him calling the NW deserter a mad man makes no sense.

 

Let's assume Mormont knew that Craster was leaving his sons to die in the woods, but not why. Jon tells him he saw a thing take it. Mormont doesn't seem surprised, so it's not that clear if he already knew that the Others were around and taking the babies, or if he just put two and two together when Jon told him that and the recent run-in with the wight. I wish the writers had taken a few moments to make that clearer because I had a problem with it when it aired. It absolutely looks as if Mormont had known all along. If I'm being generous and assume he didn't, then he takes the news like a champ and doesn't even break stride. So one of those two is a bad writing moment.

 

bleah - In my recent posts I fear I am coming off as a book purist and show hater. That's not the case. I just don't like sloppy writing. (It's why I became disillusioned with Lost). I don't mind when the show veers away from the books, and understand most of their choices, but when they do that, they really have to work at making their story clear and consistent. The story is complex and when you pull at a thread, you have to take extra care to not unravel the tapestry or fray the edges. And even if there were little things like my example here and there, it would probably not bother me. I think it happens too often, though, and I kind of hit critical mass where every little example now annoys me. I still like the show, I just wish I could love it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by GertrudeDR

[stillshimpy]

I think Jon's reason is better in the show, but that overall his faked defection to the Wildlings is so poorly done that it doesn't matter that that one area was better.  The Halfhand's characterization was a walk-on and I was convinced Ygritte had to be sort of in on the whole thing for more than a little bit, because she saw the look on Jon's face after Jon killed Quorin. 

 

But the reason in the book was tailor designed to appeal to Mance, his sense of justice, his own reasons for leaving the Night's Watch and turning away from the rules of that world.  So I think the books stuff has merit also, it's just the Show had to go with a different story: Mance doesn't tell the story of sneaking into the Feast. 

 

I really appreciate the effort that they put into it, because I know how much of a pain in the backside filming on location can be. But it did seem to affect the actors' performances, and the writing wasn't great either.

 

Also, the Scale of the Wildlng Army always made me think of summer camp, when I was a counselor and we'd conducted raids on other cabins (long story, but it was an expected part of the job)....and it would be this group kids, led by the slightly older kid who was designated counselor, just play-acting the living shit out of being sneaky and surreptitious with (fittingly enough) camp broadness to it all.  Only cold.  

 

The Wildlings running around in their Stay Pufft Marshmallow Threat gear was just funny when seen from a distance.  Oh feel the peril!  The Puffy Xander Peril! 

 

The Army of a Dozen or so well-padded, clearly cold people just was not worth that location cost.  

 

Then there was the writing and poor, cold Rose Leslie over-compensating for her naturally posh accent and playing it for the cheap seats and...eh. 

 

You know, NCW is a good actor.  Although I'm on record as just thinking he made a disastrous choice in that line-read, most of the problem with Jaime is that they've written him very inconsistently and won't fully commit to a change in the character.  Show Jaime never comes to the realization that his relationship with Cersei is ...at best....really bad for them both....and at worst....constructed of every lesser, slime-covered impulse either possesses. 

 

They've been very uneven with Jaime.  

 

Also, I read that whole "they wanted to keep the actor busy, couldn't have him unemployed for a season"  ....uh...yeah, they could.  If he signed a contract, they get to use him as much or as little as they like.  Only big names tend to have much power in that and whereas Alfie Allen did a good job with everything he was ever given, the only thing a reduced schedule does for an actor is free them up to pursue other projects.  NCW was not exactly onscreen a bunch in much of season two.   They just chose to highlight that, I"m assuming more because they were just in love with idea of introducing Ramsay in some "gotcha!" capacity, vs. telling Theon's story that fully.  

 

Plus, they really did drive pretty close to the "this is actually a horror movie" line in season three.   Truthfully though, they had to show some of it, because the way it was presented in the books simply wouldn't work.  

[Shanna Marie]

Also, I think Shanna Marie (I am sorry if I misunderstood ^^) was complaining about the changes in the mission to the Frostfangs, i.e. the endless verbal abuse on Ygritte's part, something that surely sold us the idea she's totes ready to be in love with Jon, the idiotic circumstances that led to them being separated from the main group and, in my opinion, the abysmal treatment of Qhorin and the whole skinchanger affair.

Yes, that's my complaint. The events that led up to the meeting with Mance were what bothered me, because it, like the stuff with Robb, cast Jon as a whiny, disobedient kid who got into a difficult situation because he screwed up and let his emotions and his interest in a woman get in the way. In the book, it seemed to be a much more deliberate ploy to get Jon into the middle of the wildlings. In the show, it was more like Qhorin was making the best of a bad situation created by Jon's ineptitude. In the book, when he returned and the others were treating him like a possible traitor, it seemed terribly unfair because we knew he was following orders and carrying out his mission. In the show, yeah, he did screw up, and that led to him getting the mission.

[Terra Nova]

In the book, when he returned and the others were treating him like a possible traitor, it seemed terribly unfair because we knew he was following orders and carrying out his mission.

 

Yeah, when Qhorin started to explain how Jon should have pretended to defect to the Widlings, Jon even asked him "but you will tell Lord Mormont that it's all a ploy, and that I never broke my oath, right?" (and sneaky sneaky Qhorin told him 'I will telll him, next time I see him', already knowing he needed to die to sell Jon's betrayal) *^* poor sweet boy!

 

@Gertrude

I think 'minor' deviations tend to be even more annoying than big ones, since most of the time they are not really needed, nor they improve significantly the plot. I guess on a first watch people tend to give the benefit of the doubt - I tried not to mind Talisa too much, since I told myself that even such a deviation would have ended up being irrelevant after the Red Wedding anyway -, but in hindsight you start and see the pattern, or how a small change in S1 or 2 led to an enormous deviation later on (like, for me it was clear they didn't like Stannis, but I kept telling myself that it didn't matter, once at the Wall they would have been forced to do him justice, or at least let his actions speak for him, and... yeah...)

Edited April 8, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Shanna Marie]

It's amazing how quickly you can get through episodes if you fast forward through all the pointless cruelty/torture porn, the gratuitous violence that lingers longer than necessary, and the gratuitous nudity/sex/sexposition. Or, in the case of Joffrey's nameday present, all of the above. And yet it doesn't seem to affect the ability to follow the plot.

 

I think the best part of season 2 for me is Tyrion's political maneuvering, like his scheme to figure out who was passing info to Cersei. I don't recall enjoying that part all that much in the book, and I normally don't like political plots. In the other seasons, I could generally fast forward through almost anything happening in King's Landing because I cared for very little, but these scenes in season two are a highlight. I think maybe it's because Tyrion's glee at doing all this is so palpable in the show. He's in the zone and enjoying it. This is his happy place.

 

I saw Talisa's first appearance last night, and yeah, that's a big nope. She's lucky Robb was the king she pulled that stunt with. Can you imagine what would have happened if she'd talked to Stannis that way on a battlefield, lecturing him about the evils of war? Or Joffrey? (though that would have required Joffrey to untie the apron strings for long enough to be on a battlefield)

[stillshimpy]

It's amazing how quickly you can get through episodes if you fast forward through all the pointless cruelty/torture porn, the gratuitous violence that lingers longer than necessary, and the gratuitous nudity/sex/sexposition. Or, in the case of Joffrey's nameday present, all of the above. And yet it doesn't seem to affect the ability to follow the plot.

 

Right?  I've currently got two houses under-contract as a seller, so to say that my stress-level is high would be way understating the matter at hand, but it's almost been cracking me up how little time the entire season took.   

 

By the way, all of the seasons and all of the episodes are available on HBO GO, on the HBO site, so if you have HBO and can stream on your computer, the whole series is available outside of OnDemand.  

 

There are absolutely things I've enjoyed, but overall season two just rings a little hollow for me and I am mostly through season three also.  By the time we hit the Rains of Castamere, I just feel fatigued by the show.  If you aren't a big fan of the Lannisters -- and in the show's case only very particular Lannisters -- it's a bit of a grim slog.   Shae's characterizations is really odd and uneven.  She's a much bigger problem for me than Talisa is.   

 

Talisa is just a weird inclusion that I think was put into place to make Robb less of a pure martyr.  Book Robb is just so good and true blue.  The only real mistake he makes is being too freaking honorable.   After he had sex with Jeyne he should have just granted her father lands, or given him money or arranged a good marriage for Jeyne and kept his alliance, but he chose the more honorable thing from the rules as he understood them. 

 

Series Robb is more of a participant in all that goes wrong, but man alive, that wedding stuff just makes me furious to this day.  Talisa being stabbed to death in the baby was horrific.  The stuff with Grey Wind makes me want to punch several people involved right in the freaking nose.   The stuff with Loras is just ....GAH.   

 

Onwards to season four.   

 

I don't know, the series doesn't rewatch well for me, even in doing the "compare this to the books now" capacity.  I don't understand the reasoning behind the majority of the choices made.  I don't mind Talisa or Roz, which I know a lot of readers do.  Talisa makes almost no sense as a character, but you know what also just drove me up a tree?  Catelyn's repeated "is it because she's not beautiful?" about the Frey girl.   What a weird note  for the show to make up and honestly, the show truly seems to be suggesting "Yes, it's because the Frey to be Named Later was said to be plain" which....my goodness, there was room between "Book Robb:  Goodhearted Martyr, made the wrong call on what form of honor to...honor... " and Show Robb:  Kind of bratty.  Way too hard on his mother and disrespectful to boot.  Does seem to really be bothered by the thought that a marriage pact made for an alliance won't deliver him a Westerosi Covergirl.  Everyone treats the fact that the girl Edmure is married off to is gorgeous as a winky-wink-wink....but most particularly Robb who has an "Hey....no fair! I wouldn't have married this fetching anachronism if I'd known you had a looker in your stable!"  .... and then to the slaughter they go. 

 

So in the rare instances the show injects some fun, it actually tends to make me nervous, wondering what hideous thing is about to happen.  

[WSmith84]

Shae is a really weird one. I get that they had to make her different from book Shae but the end result is such a weird character that it ends up worse than its book counterpart. She's a worldly whore who knows the score, until Tyrion takes her to King's Landing and then she starts complaining about being treated like a whore. She has a protective streak over Sansa... and then throws her under a bus. She jumps into bed with Tywin? She believes Tyrion's 'you're a whore' speech. Watching the episodes in quick succession like this makes it really obvious how poorly written certain characters are; they have no consistency. Weirdly, GRRM has said that show Shae is a better character than book Shae. I suspect that has more to do with him becoming good friends with the actress than the actual writing, but still.

 

Watching season 4 now and, boy oh boy, does the stuff at the Wall suuuuuuuuuuck.

[Terra Nova]

I mantain that Shae should have been the show equivalent of Tysha, but they dropped her like a hot potato and shoe-horned her in the same position of her book counterpart.

It's baffling since during that sort of party before the Battle of the Green Fork in S1 they even had Tyrion failing to read her and guess where she came from, as to suggest that mentally Shae is his equal, at least. Then as soon as she reached King's Landing she reverted to some annoying and incredibly dumb woman.

They could have used her as an echo chamber for some of Sansa's thoughts - since bla bla bla inner mologue bla bla difficult to transpose and so on - or to show how harsh the life of smallfolk can be, and there where brief hints of both, but everything just went out of the window in Season 4. And then of course she attacks Tyrion with a tiny knife when found in Tywin's bed.

[stillshimpy]

Watching season 4 now and, boy oh boy, does the stuff at the Wall suuuuuuuuuuck.

 

Okay, so this brings up something I was anticipating that never saw fruition:  After liking and often admiring the men of The Wall in the books, I thought that I would pick up things I'd missed in the TV series that actually are related to the characters at the Wall in the book. 

 

Not so!! Holy shit, it's so bad in the show, it didn't get better -- and as a reminder, I have always both ranted and raved about how freaking boring and terrible the stories at The Wall were -- and it's actually wose than I remembered it being.  The endless circling of Crasters and seemingly glorying in the disgusting antics of the men of the Wall there.  The fact that Mormont would have to be a pure fool to not pick up on how close to mutiny everyone is.  The idiocy of taking that lot with you anywhere in the first place, let alone on a challenging mission. 

 

Sam. GAH and ARGH....how is it even humanly possible that his stuff comes off even worse after reading his book counterpart? It defies all reason and logic.  

 

I just...I'm very frustrated by all of that.  

[WSmith84]

Yeah. 'Let's take Gilly, a woman who has never been outside the area surrounding her home, and drop her off at a brothel that even Tim Burton would think is too dark and depressing. Even though we know Wildlings are attacking villages and towns south of the Wall and will eventually hit Mole's Town, let's leave her and her new baby there all alone. Makes sense.'

 

The majority of the stuff at the Wall in season 4 is just filler. And crap filler at that. I actually thought the show was going to do something interesting with the character Locke. I thought that, during the expedition North, Jon and Locke would have seen a White Walker or a wight, and Locke would have realised what danger they were in and decide to join the NW in truth. Not out of selflessness or anything, but simply because he saw the big picture; the White Walkers and the dead were coming and nowhere would be safe. The only option was to fight them. Of course, that didn't happen, and we instead got Locke's ridiculous plan to somehow drag Bran back to the Wall and somehow get him to the other side and then presumably take him to Roose. Why didn't he just kill Bran, Meera, Hodor and Jojen whilst they were tied up, rejoin the battle and then act all sad for Jon when they discover the bodies afterwards? And why did the NW waste their element of surprise by charging at the keep, screaming at the top of their lungs, rather than attempting stealth and potentially getting a couple of easy kills.

 

The more I think about it, the worse it gets.

[Alayne Stone]

You know, I vaguely remember being able to watch season one and two (unlike some of you) and to a slightly lesser degree, season 3, repeatedly. Season 4 I have only been able to rewatch once despite generally liking it up until maybe episode 9. And there's certainly some gems in season 4 like the way Littlefinger/Sansa played out and Oberyn Martell's general presence, Tyrion's trial, etc. But I could only ever watch it once.

 

While some of season 2 is painful to watch I really enjoyed Brienne's introduction and everything in King's Landing.

 

And I agree, Shimpy. I wasn't nearly as bothered by Talissa as a lot of other book readers were. She's very anachronistic, yes, but it did not grate my nerves nearly as much as the portrayal of Shae did.

 

And I also think you're right about the wall stuff. It falls very short and I remember once Team Dragonstone arrived at the end of season 4 and we got that beautiful shot of Melisandre watching Jon through the fire (totally harking back to the book counterpart of "I asking for visions of Azor Ahai and R'hllor shows me only Snow) I was very, very excited for the wall in season 5 because I figured that finally, finally it would be that storyline's moment to shine. And then we all know what happened there ...

 

Second GOT trailer has dropped, by the way. Lots of new footage in it as well. I think this one was much better done than the first one.

[WindyNights]

Here's the new trailer:

[GertrudeDR]

I can't be bothered to get worked up about all the things I think the show dropped the ball on, but Shae is one of those issues that still upsets me. As Shimpy said, she's terribly uneven. I can't believe they had a vision for her at all and just wrote whatever came into their heads at the moment, only knowing that eventually, she had to end up on the stand and in Tywin's bed. Screw whatever happens between her introduction and that.

[Avaleigh]

Shae is his equal, at least. Then as soon as she reached King's Landing she reverted to some annoying and incredibly dumb woman.

I thought Shae seemed uneven and dumb at times in the books too. There are times when she was telling Tyrion that she could be the mother to his kids and be a lady at court and it's like in what universe? She's worldly one second and says dumb stuff like that. When Tyrion tells her that she'll be safer living in the castle, she's more concerned with bringing her jewels than her personal safety and thinks that Tyrion should just be able to supply her with more guards so that she doesn't have to give up her lifestyle during the war. It was amazing to me that this woman was supposedly a camp follower. How does she have no idea what war means when she's seen it for herself? 

 

She's also the same woman who didn't see what the big deal was that Lollys was raped in King's Landing and had zero sympathy for her. 

 

I didn't like Shae's death but I wasn't bothered by her throwing Sansa under the bus because she came across as somebody who was an insincere opportunist. 

[WindyNights]

I thought Shae seemed uneven and dumb at times in the books too. There are times when she was telling Tyrion that she could be the mother to his kids and be a lady at court and it's like in what universe? She's worldly one second and says dumb stuff like that. When Tyrion tells her that she'll be safer living in the castle, she's more concerned with bringing her jewels than her personal safety and thinks that Tyrion should just be able to supply her with more guards so that she doesn't have to give up her lifestyle during the war. It was amazing to me that this woman was supposedly a camp follower. How does she have no idea what war means when she's seen it for herself?

She's also the same woman who didn't see what the big deal was that Lollys was raped in King's Landing and had zero sympathy for her.

I didn't like Shae's death but I wasn't bothered by her throwing Sansa under the bus because she came across as somebody who was an insincere opportunist.

That's because Shae was acting for Tyrion. He only wanted him for money. He paid her to act like he wasn't a freak and pretend to love her. It's kind of on him if he fell for his own lie.

[GertrudeDR]

Absolutely. Shae was a straight up mercenary in the books. That was pretty clear. She hit the jack-pot with Tyrion and I'm not surprised that she let her new-found wealth and security cloud her judgement in regards to her personal safety. The house and jewels and silks were right here, right now - the dangers of war were ... maybe out there somewhere in the future. Also remember that Tyrion is a very generous patron - she's gonna tell him whatever he wants to hear and rake in the bonus for being enthusiastic about her role as 'lover'.

 

I think Book Shae is a very damaged person. When she makes that comment about Lollys, it's very disturbing. I can't even call her a horrible person because I just think she's had a shitty life and honestly doesn't know any better, doesn't actually know how to love or have a bit of empathy. Obviously I don't think she's a good person, but I don't think she had any positive examples to show her how to be. (just me projecting my thoughts onto her)

 

In the show, they didn't go that route with Shae, and that's why when she throws Sansa under the bus it falls so very flat. Show Shae and Book Shae have the same name, but that's about it. Show Shae turns down a fortune in diamonds from Varys because she loves Tyrion and wants to be with him, the very opposite of an insincere opportunist.

Edited April 12, 2016 by GertrudeDR

[WindyNights]

Absolutely. Shae was a straight up mercenary in the books. That was pretty clear. She hit the jack-pot with Tyrion and I'm not surprised that she let her new-found wealth and security cloud her judgement in regards to her personal safety. The house and jewels and silks were right here, right now - the dangers of war were ... maybe out there somewhere in the future. Also remember that Tyrion is a very generous patron - she's gonna tell him whatever he wants to hear and rake in the bonus for being enthusiastic about her role as 'lover'.

I think Book Shae is a very damaged person. When she makes that comment about Lollys, it's very disturbing. I can't even call her a horrible person because I just think she's had a shitty life and honestly doesn't know any better, doesn't actually know how to love or have a bit of empathy. Obviously I don't think she's a good person, but I don't think she had any positive examples to show her how to be. (just me projecting my thoughts onto her)

In the show, they didn't go that route with Shae, and that's why when she throws Sansa under the bus it falls so very flat. Show Shae and Book Shae have the same name, but that's about it. Show Shae turns down a fortune in diamonds from Varys because she loves Tyrion and wants to be with him, the very opposite of an insincere opportunist.

From what I remember book Shae ran away from home because his dad was forcing himself on her as well as making her a scullion which is why Shae reacts so negatively when Tyrion tries to do the same

And I believe the one time Shae tried to get him to stand up to his dad, Tyrion felt that he was being mocked and he slapped her for it

Tyrion's sensitive to mockery

[Terra Nova]

Also, in the books Shae is around eighteen, ten years younger than Tyrion. The imbalance in age, social class and wealth is enormous (something the show took great care to mitigate as much as possible).

And Shae through the silks and the jewels Tyrion promised her (and then took away) could have hoarded enough for retiring and live the rest of her life as a free woman. So of course she tries to get as much as possible out of the deal.

Re: Sansa, in the show they even had her saying 'I would kill for that girl!' only for two scenes (ok, maybe three, but I swear it's not more than that) later testify and sentencing her to death (btw, I liked the acting in that scene, in a vacuum: she starts esitantly, clearly reciting what Cersei/Tywin told her, and then almost cries when she says 'I am a whore, remember?' After that she is all flared up and contemptuous, but she seems puzzled when Tyrion asks for the combat - I took that as an evidence she was told he would have been exiled and so she was trying to save his life... yeah, sweet dreams are made of this...).

[Avaleigh]

Absolutely. Shae was a straight up mercenary in the books. That was pretty clear. She hit the jack-pot with Tyrion and I'm not surprised that she let her new-found wealth and security cloud her judgement in regards to her personal safety. The house and jewels and silks were right here, right now - the dangers of war were ... maybe out there somewhere in the future. Also remember that Tyrion is a very generous patron - she's gonna tell him whatever he wants to hear and rake in the bonus for being enthusiastic about her role as 'lover'.

 

I think Book Shae is a very damaged person. When she makes that comment about Lollys, it's very disturbing. I can't even call her a horrible person because I just think she's had a shitty life and honestly doesn't know any better, doesn't actually know how to love or have a bit of empathy. Obviously I don't think she's a good person, but I don't think she had any positive examples to show her how to be. (just me projecting my thoughts onto her)

 

In the show, they didn't go that route with Shae, and that's why when she throws Sansa under the bus it falls so very flat. Show Shae and Book Shae have the same name, but that's about it. Show Shae turns down a fortune in diamonds from Varys because she loves Tyrion and wants to be with him, the very opposite of an insincere opportunist.

I agree that Shae is damaged and it's exactly because she's had a hard life that I'd think she'd have maybe a shred of sympathy for a woman who'd been gang raped. 

 

Regarding playing the role for Tyrion, I thought her saying that she wanted to be his lady at court was exactly what Tyrion didn't want to hear and only made him uncomfortable and even slightly guilty because he knew it was impossible which Shae would well know so it didn't come across to me like she was telling him what he wanted to hear. He wants things to continue to be easy. 

 

From what I remember book Shae ran away from home because his dad was forcing himself on her as well as making her a scullion which is why Shae reacts so negatively when Tyrion tries to do the same

 

I thought Shae might have been lying about her father because her story kept changing and there were times when she felt like she couldn't remember what story she told Tyrion. 

 

The house and jewels and silks were right here, right now - the dangers of war were ... maybe out there somewhere in the future.

 

He explains very clearly that war is coming any day now and explains the danger of why they can't be publicly found out and still seems like she doesn't get it that this is for her own safety. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Avaleigh

[GertrudeDR]

I think it's beyond Shae having a hard life. Some people can overcome adversity, but Shae doesn't even have a framework to imagine that rape is traumatic. She has probably lived with rape in one form or another for most of her life, so why can't Lollys get over it? To Shae it must seem like Shae is made of stronger stuff and Lollys is just weak. That's why I see her as almost irreparably damaged. Anyone with a remotely positive influence or framework for human relationships would feel sorry for Lollys on at least some level.

 

As to the dangers of war - Shae really hasn't seen war first hand. The land has been at peace since the rebellion when she was only a toddler. She may have seen some fighting, but nothing serious. She meets Tyrion right as the fighting starts and it hasn't touched anyone but the soldiers so far. I don't find it hard to believe she might underestimate the dangers, or believe that she might be able to survive somehow because that's what she's been doing her whole life. She wants her new toys because they are nice - and if she's thinking long term, they are her security for the future. I tend to think she wasn't thinking particularly long-term, however. Those lottery winners you hear about who wind up in debt because they can't manage money? That's how I envision her.

 

But this is all getting a little off-track. My main point was that Book and Show Shae only have a passing acquaintance with one another. It did surprise me that Show Shae threw Sansa under the bus because in the show, Shae was not the opportunist she was in the books. In some cases I can impose Book motives on Show characters, but not in this case at all.

Edited April 12, 2016 by GertrudeDR

[mac123x]

Season 4 I have only been able to rewatch once despite generally liking it up until maybe episode 9. And there's certainly some gems in season 4 like the way Littlefinger/Sansa played out and Oberyn Martell's general presence, Tyrion's trial, etc. But I could only ever watch it once.

 

I agree for the most part, but I could watch Joffrey choke to death on a continuous loop. 

 

Apparently they had to do multiple takes of Marge saying, "Oh look, the pie!" because everyone kept corpsing.

[Haleth]

I wonder if the Unsullied Habitat will continue to have episode threads since no one knows what will happen. Of course there is still a need for book reader vs non book reader threads for each episode. Makes me kind of sad if the Unsullied Habitat fades away.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Haleth

[Lady S.]

Yeah. 'Let's take Gilly, a woman who has never been outside the area surrounding her home, and drop her off at a brothel that even Tim Burton would think is too dark and depressing. Even though we know Wildlings are attacking villages and towns south of the Wall and will eventually hit Mole's Town, let's leave her and her new baby there all alone. Makes sense.'

 

The majority of the stuff at the Wall in season 4 is just filler. And crap filler at that. I actually thought the show was going to do something interesting with the character Locke. I thought that, during the expedition North, Jon and Locke would have seen a White Walker or a wight, and Locke would have realised what danger they were in and decide to join the NW in truth. Not out of selflessness or anything, but simply because he saw the big picture; the White Walkers and the dead were coming and nowhere would be safe. The only option was to fight them. Of course, that didn't happen, and we instead got Locke's ridiculous plan to somehow drag Bran back to the Wall and somehow get him to the other side and then presumably take him to Roose. Why didn't he just kill Bran, Meera, Hodor and Jojen whilst they were tied up, rejoin the battle and then act all sad for Jon when they discover the bodies afterwards? And why did the NW waste their element of surprise by charging at the keep, screaming at the top of their lungs, rather than attempting stealth and potentially getting a couple of easy kills.

 

The more I think about it, the worse it gets.

The most illogical part of the Craster's detour was Karl the Fooking Legend himself. Why was he keeping Grenn and Edd chained up until they escaped? Why did they capture Ghost and keep him caged instead of killing him? Why did he think capturing three highborn kids was such a jackpot? Who was he going to get a ransom from and how would he even send a ransom request? Did this psycho have a compulsive need to hold people and direwolves in captivity?

[GertrudeDR]

It's almost like they made this stuff up because they needed something to happen at the Wall because they screwed up the pacing. Nah, the story is tight and thought is given to each part and how it interconnects with other arcs and itself, right?

[Shanna Marie]

The thing with the return to Craster that bugs me is that it messed up the urgency of Jon's desperate return to Castle Black. Now, it's been several years since I read the book, so I may be confused, but as I recall, when Jon returned after escaping the Wildlings to warn the Watch about the attack, they didn't have a lot of time to prepare to defend themselves. Jon got up out of his sickbed, still barely on his feet, to fight. That lent a lot of urgency to the whole thing because you wondered if he'd make it in time, if the warning would be soon enough.

 

In the show, he had time to recover enough to then have time to take a jaunt north and then return and still have time to prepare for the battle -- and somehow didn't encounter the entire Wildling army that was going to attack from north of the Wall while the raiding party attacked from the south. They seemed to be stalling for time because they wanted to spread events apart rather than have too many climactic things happen all at once. Plus, I guess they needed a way to cram in more bare breasts and rape scenes. Those would have been hard to fit in with desperate battle preparations at the Wall. They apparently have a quota to fill.

[Terra Nova]

The Craster detour also created an(other) ENORMOUS plot hole: Jon knows Bran is alive, somehow divines where he could go but doesn't find him, and then... he never mentions Bran again! When he renounces Winterfell he should mention that it belongs to his very alive brother, but that is the least: he doesn't worry the Wildling army may catch him or, you know, one season later, when he sees the army of the dead that is roaming the land

, that Bran may be a zombonie. I would be have the living daylight scared of me thinking my very young and crippled brother to be out there alone.

This could have been solved by having Sam promise Bran not to tell a soul about him, since Jon uses the pretext of Karl fooking Tanner giving away the NW's number as the reason to attact him a anyway (another plot hole, since Mance grew in the NW and surely he knows they have only three castles scantily manned).

[WSmith84]

All good points about the North and the Wall. One positive aspect of it is, in my opinion, the casting. Whilst Kit is a woeful miscast in the early seasons due to his obvious age, he's actually fantastic when he's playing mature Jon Snow, particularly Lord Commander Snow. Jeor Mormont had one of my favourite casting choices ever, and I think it's a real shame that they didn't do more with him. I like Ser Alliser, Maester Aemon, Sam, Edd etc. It's not the casting that lets these characters down; it's usually the writing.

 

Charles Dance is so freaking good in this show. I have a feeling that the writers might not have been nearly so enamoured with Tywin if they hadn't cast Dance. I don't think anyone who has read the books or even just read the script would classify Tywin as 'neutral lawful' (as the showrunners did) so I assume it's because Dance is so charming and charismatic that people want to see Tywin in a better light.

[mac123x]

I wonder if the Unsullied Habitat will continue to have episode threads since no one knows what will happen. Of course there is still a need for book reader vs non book reader threads for each episode. Makes me kind of sad if the Unsullied Habitat fades away.

 

I think it can still continue, since the Unsullied rules (like not watching previews) still apply.

 

The thing with the return to Craster that bugs me is that it messed up the urgency of Jon's desperate return to Castle Black. Now, it's been several years since I read the book, so I may be confused, but as I recall, when Jon returned after escaping the Wildlings to warn the Watch about the attack, they didn't have a lot of time to prepare to defend themselves. Jon got up out of his sickbed, still barely on his feet, to fight. That lent a lot of urgency to the whole thing because you wondered if he'd make it in time, if the warning would be soon enough.

 

In the book, the attacks from the south and the north were separate events.  Either due to budgetary reasons or because they wanted one big battle scene, the show combined them.  I can understand why they did it, since Mance's attack is more of a siege, which isn't as visually exciting.  Really messed with the season's pacing though, both the North and Dragonstone.

[WSmith84]

In the book, the attacks from the south and the north were separate events.  Either due to budgetary reasons or because they wanted one big battle scene, the show combined them.  I can understand why they did it, since Mance's attack is more of a siege, which isn't as visually exciting.  Really messed with the season's pacing though, both the North and Dragonstone.

To be fair, they could have just put the big battle episode towards the beginning of the season. That way we could have avoided all of the filler for both Jon and Stannis.

[Terra Nova]

^ This

 

The culmination of Jon's arc could have been his election as Lord Commander, and leaving the 9th episode free of the big battle would have let the ending of each other arc breathe a little better, since S4 finale was choked full of 'bombastic, shocking moments!': 'Stannis charges! The Wall is safe! The Children of the Forest! Not!Brynden! the dragons locked! Brienne vs the Hound! Tyrion! Shae! Happy Father's Day, Tywin!

From that point of view, that episode was really unbalanced, the tension was ramped up for its entire length, and it ended up jumping from one character to the other in order to close all the storylines (not Margaery's, since as said upthread they just drop her around the sixth episode of each season, lol).

[WSmith84]

I also think, as much as I love most of the scenes between Arya and the Hound in season 4, that the show might have been better off ending that earlier in the season and having Arya head off to Braavos. Most of the Arya-Hound scenes were nice, but I feel like only a few of them served the characters' development.

[Hecate7]

I agree that Shae is damaged and it's exactly because she's had a hard life that I'd think she'd have maybe a shred of sympathy for a woman who'd been gang raped. 

 

Regarding playing the role for Tyrion, I thought her saying that she wanted to be his lady at court was exactly what Tyrion didn't want to hear and only made him uncomfortable and even slightly guilty because he knew it was impossible which Shae would well know so it didn't come across to me like she was telling him what he wanted to hear. He wants things to continue to be easy. 

 

 

I thought Shae might have been lying about her father because her story kept changing and there were times when she felt like she couldn't remember what story she told Tyrion. 

 

 

He explains very clearly that war is coming any day now and explains the danger of why they can't be publicly found out and still seems like she doesn't get it that this is for her own safety. 

 

 

That's because she's not in any danger. She's doing the job TYWIN gave her, of keeping an eye on Tyrion for him. She's spying on Tyrion from the very start, which is why she's never worried about Tywin finding out about her. Tywin did say to Tyrion that he'd hang the next whore he found in Tyrion's bed, but I don't think he actually expected the threat to work on his desperately lonely, horny son. I think he was hoping Tyrion would be more discreet, and the threat served that purpose. Shae's not stupid and it isn't that she "doesn't get it." She just knows it doesn't really make any difference.

 

I think Shae may also have had an agenda we didn't know about, to push Tyrion, ask him certain questions, offer him certain temptations, such as running away to Pentos or making her his public lady, so that Tywin could see exactly much control he really still had over his son.

[OhOkayWhat]

Charles Dance is so freaking good in this show. I have a feeling that the writers might not have been nearly so enamoured with Tywin if they hadn't cast Dance. I don't think anyone who has read the books or even just read the script would classify Tywin as 'neutral lawful' (as the showrunners did) so I assume it's because Dance is so charming and charismatic that people want to see Tywin in a better light.

 

If I remember the interview correctly, they talk about Tywin "villainy" and the way the character is analyzed is VERY problematic, I disagree with the showrunners a lot about the way they think when they are talking about Tywin and also disagree about other things they say in that interview.

 

 

 

......and leaving the 9th episode free of the big battle would have let the ending of each other arc breathe a little better, since S4 finale was choked full of 'bombastic, shocking moments!'......

 

As I said before, to analyze the showrunners decisions about the last episodes of season 4 we should include the possibility that maybe the "big battle" or any "big scene" is part of the business model of the show.

 

 

 

I also think, as much as I love most of the scenes between Arya and the Hound in season 4, that the show might have been better off ending that earlier in the season and having Arya head off to Braavos. Most of the Arya-Hound scenes were nice, but I feel like only a few of them served the characters' development.

 

I disagree, that true bonding moment between Sandor and Arya in Episode 7 of season 4 needs the previous scenes (or at least a lot of the elements of those scenes) to explain the transformation of both characters. And their next scene together (Episode 8) also inform us about what is happening inside Arya mind and the way the darkness is growing inside her. And it is obvious that their scenes in the last episode of the season are important too.

Edited April 15, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[stillshimpy]

I think it can still continue, since the Unsullied rules (like not watching previews) still apply.

 

Plus, what actually makes for the fun of that group is that they (since it's no longer a "we" for me) are trying to guess what will happen based solely on what is on the screen, and whether or not it makes logical sense from the narrative on the screen.   So it's kind of a good gauge for the story being received in a vacuum, because most of those folks are not kidding around about avoiding all press, down to things that couldn't possibly be taken as spoilers (reports of Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie dating, as a for instance) and most will go to kind of extreme lengths to avoid previews, etc. 

 

I think the whole "Oh hell no, I will not go gently into that spoiler good night, shields set to "deny huge chunks of actual reality, to preserve the bio-dome approach to viewing the show" and trying to put the unsullied in with the unspoiled just doesn't work.  We had so many people at TWoP and even here (although they got weeded out and busted pretty handily) who wanted to have some fun, so they thought "hey, it will be fine if I just never reveal what I've read/seen/heard, I'm not out to hurt anyone.  It will be fine" and even with the kindest intent, every bit of speculation was influenced by the stuff they couldn't unknow.  

 

If you dump the Unsullied back in with the Unspoiled, that's what happens.  Sure, every one is on the same current page for how much we know, but they are going to know a host of things that that group doesn't.  

 

It might naturally end as fewer and fewer people sustain that, but I hope it's not taken away from them because it is like their game night.  

 

So in watching the show, and maybe it is because the books are a relatively fresh experience for me, I keep bumping into a problem:  As the books went on, I tended to like the story more and more -- with a few noticeable "oh my farging god, stop it with the dogs already!" exceptions --  and conversely it's made me really dislike the later seasons in a way that I might not if I had more distance.  Just saying, I think my frustration with "But why would you ditch the development of Quorin Halfhand and Jon being ordered to do whatever it took in favor of the Renaissance Hostel Horror Show at Craster's?  That makes zero fucking sense to simply that part of the tale in favor of shit an unimaginative horror film would do!" 

 

Why not use that budget for some extra Wildlings, so they didn't look like a dozen Old Timey Hobos and were impossible to take seriously as a threat?  

 

You guys have had a lot more time to process all the "they swerved here" and "they feinted there" and "they just made up this outrageously stupid and brutal shit for grins" type of decision-making.  I find myself glowering through every episode and stuff I originally thought "Pretty good, that was interesting" I just want to throw boiled cabbage at, at present.  

[Terra Nova]

 I find myself glowering through every episode and stuff I originally thought "Pretty good, that was interesting" I just want to throw boiled cabbage at, at present.  

 

Oh, that's really interesting, could you make some specific example? And, also, your change of mind is due to the comparison with the source or to have had some time to mull over some things?

 

 

On another topic, it seems the showrunners want S7 and S8 to be only 13 episodes in total:

 

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-end-date-season-8-1201752746/

[WindyNights]

Man, they really want this show to be done already.

7 episodes to take the throne and 6 episodes to defeat the Others?

[Triskan]

If you dump the Unsullied back in with the Unspoiled, that's what happens.  Sure, every one is on the same current page for how much we know, but they are going to know a host of things that that group doesn't.  

 

Yeah, I really hope we can preserve the Unsullied habitat, but sadly I fear it will be quite deserted this year... I really hope most of them will come back but somehow, I dont think it will be very active...

 

That being said, even if just two / three of them came back, it would be enough to, once again, be privvy to their amazing speculations and reflexions ! So let's hope they'll gather once again for season 6 ! 

[Avaleigh]

Man, they really want this show to be done already.

7 episodes to take the throne and 6 episodes to defeat the Others?

My hope is that we'll get two supersized episodes for the final two seasons so that it's closer to fourteen plus hours. 

 

I can see it only taking a handful of episodes to defeat the Others. Not so sure about the IT stuff. The reason I don't see the stuff with the Others taking as long is they don't really get dialogue or long scenes, so I don't see us spending that much time getting their perspective whereas with the IT stuff we pretty much get to see all sides. Once they full on attack I feel like there's only so much they can do with that before we get into the Walking Dead territory and IMO that isn't primarily what GoT is about. 

 

I absolutely love that there's a larger conflict and enjoy the supernatural elements of the story but my favorite part of this story is the race for the Iron Throne. Take out the magical elements and I still think that the story is very strong. Take away the politics and the race for the Iron Throne and the story doesn't work quite as well to me. 

[GertrudeDR]

See and I think that who takes the thrones eventually, or if it evens exists is less interesting than how all these players come together and wipe out the threat. I think the threat in the North will be dealt with before the throne, actually. I'm maybe thinking that Aegon takes it, Dany wants it, but she realizes that the Others are what is actually important and leaves that to be dealt with later. Or maybe it's all destroyed by the time Dany gets there (her House of the Undying vision in the show) After the realms of men are safe again, I think the throne is more or less settled by the power players who saw what happened and judged their leadership against the Others. I don't have solid theories as to what happens, but I see the actual throne as anti-climactic. It's all about the magic and myth for me. The power-struggle is very good and exciting and I like it too, but it's the obstacle that was created to make the real threat more intense.

Edited April 15, 2016 by GertrudeDR

[Avaleigh]

I feel like we already have a basic idea of how the battle with the Others will go down. I know there are some people who think that the Others will win but I can't see that happening. I think that the dragons are going to be instrumental to the fight and that people with Valyrian steel are going to be the backbone fighters. I don't know who will live and who will die but as far as how they'll all come together to fight the greater enemy, it just seems like a given that the humans will side together over the nonhumans. I don't think they're going to need convincing if something catastrophic happens like the Wall falling down. 

 

As for the Iron Throne, I fully acknowledge that there might not even be an Iron Throne when all is said and done. Or maybe Westeros will go back to being seven separate kingdoms. I feel like there are so many different ways it can shake out and so many different outcomes. With the Others vs. Westeros/the rest of the world, I feel like there are three outcomes. The Others win. The living win and the Others are forever vanquished. The living win but the Others are just driven back and held in check by another Wall or some form of magic. 

[WindyNights]

6 more days until season 6 starts, guys.

Get disappointed I mean hyped.....for disappointment .....probably

[Chris24601]

Regarding the "Only 13 more episodes" thing... one thing to remember is that those numbers are being floated really early and as part of negotiations. It's probably a slight low-ball so that when its announced that s7 and s8 will actually be a total of 15 or 16 episodes (8+7 or 8+8) it will feel more like a win for the audiences instead of "that's 5 fewer episodes than we were expecting".

 

On the topic of the show in general, my friends and I our in the process of finishing up our marathon re-watch and I have to say that, when watched 2-3 episodes at a time over the course of a few days, season five holds together a LOT better than it did with single episodes over a ten week span and seems far less depressing as well. Season Five Show stuff under the tags...

For example, I think half the awful of Winterfell came from the audience having to wait a week to get the next awful thing so we had time to wallow in it, but when you go from the rape at the end of episode 6, to Sansa begging Theon for help (only to be betrayed) and then pocketing the pick she'll eventually use to escape and that Jon is now Lord Commander about half an hour later and then shortly after that getting Theon to spill the beans that Bran and Rickon are still alive about an hour after that (with other stuff in between the scenes) then it feels much less like the show is wallowing in the misery of it all and more like the plot is actually going somewhere. She's then absent for about an hour and a half, but then the very next time we see Sansa she's using the pick to escape her room, Myranda is killed and Sansa and Theon jump from the Battlements into the snow in hopes of escape).

The difference between the roughly 20 minutes of screen time from the start of the rape to Sansa's escape appearing over about three and a half hours of viewing vs. the MONTH between them when watching live is amazing and it becomes far more apparent as well that each scene after the rape is Sansa making some effort to free herself and/or getting critical information she'll need later (trying to convince Theon to help her, palming a tool to pick the lock to her door and learning Jon is now Lord Commander, confronting Theon about his betrayal and learning Bran and Rickon are still alive, then her actual escape) which is easy to overlook when you've got a week between each scene.

[GertrudeDR]

I still maintain that we didn't really see Sansa do much to help herself until it was apparent that she was in waaaaay over her head. I would have loved to see her try and help herself before the actual wedding. A few nameless lords would have been a good addition so we could see Sansa trying to feel them out - something - other than her being petulant towards Ramsey.  Even if she would have begun the conversation with the servant rather than having the old woman drop that on her unprompted would have been an improvement. So while I see where you are coming from, I still disagree. I think I wouldn't feel so strongly about this if they hadn't made a point of bringing out Darth Sansa at the end of season 4.

[WSmith84]

Completed my season 4 rewatch. Wouldn't you know, Lysa makes it pretty clear that Sansa can't marry again until Tyrion is dead. That obviously was completely ignored for the 'thrilling' plot with Ramsey in season 5.

 

Season 4 left me slightly tired, to be honest. I didn't find it all that enjoyable, although it had some decent scenes and episodes. I find that the series really likes to dwell on the negatives and misery. Brienne is simultaneously the luckiest and unluckiest person in Westeros; she manages to find pretty much everyone, but no one wants to go with her. She also comes across as quite a bully, honestly, given how she treats Pod.

 

I don't know if I have the energy to watch season 5. It was just so bad in so many areas and has the terrible Winterfell and Dorne plots. Poor Jaime. They screwed him so badly in season 4 and season 5 was just worse.

[mac123x]

On another topic, it seems the showrunners want S7 and S8 to be only 13 episodes in total:

 

feel like we already have a basic idea of how the battle with the Others will go down. I know there are some people who think that the Others will win but I can't see that happening. I think that the dragons are going to be instrumental to the fight and that people with Valyrian steel are going to be the backbone fighters.

 

I'm seeing one big battle, Jon eventually winds up one-on-one with the Night King dude, kills him and every other Other disintegrates and all the wights collapse.  That's a trope that's never been done before.

[Avaleigh]

I'm seeing one big battle, Jon eventually winds up one-on-one with the Night King dude, kills him and every other Other disintegrates and all the wights collapse.  That's a trope that's never been done before.

Is it possible that there a top dog beyond the Night's King? I'm thinking of the Great Other whose name we've yet to learn. 

[WindyNights]

So something I was thinking about but it still doesn't make sense that it was Brandon that slept with Ashara not Eddard.

It's just that Edric Dayne thinks it was Ned who was Ashara's lover not Brandon so I'm not sure why they would lie about it unless they were in on Jon Snow's secret parentage which I find unlikely.

[Hecate7]

So something I was thinking about but it still doesn't make sense that it was Brandon that slept with Ashara not Eddard.

It's just that Edric Dayne thinks it was Ned who was Ashara's lover not Brandon so I'm not sure why they would lie about it unless they were in on Jon Snow's secret parentage which I find unlikely.

 

 

How would Edric Dayne actually know who slept with who? He wasn't even born yet.