Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WSmith84]

As for my favourite POVs:

 

AGOT

 

Ned without a doubt. Such a good man deserved a better fate than what he got (now isn't that a recurring theme?) and it was fascinating learning about the past from him. Poor bastard gave up everything for his siblings as well. Bet you that Benjen was his favourite simply because he didn't require some enormous sacrifice from Ned.

 

Arya. She breaks my heart when she talks about Mycah and how she feels responsible for his death. I hope Martin doesn't have a tragic end in mind for her. And I hope she gets a reunion with Jon at some point.

 

Tyrion. I enjoy his travels throughout Westeros, even if on rereads he's much more obviously a complete shit from day one. That's when George knew how to keep travelogues short and sweet.

 

ACOK

 

Tyrion is at his best in this. Apart from the Shae stuff, it's great to read.

 

Davos. I don't think this character has a chapter that I don't like. And it's refreshing to have a decent man amidst all the backstabbers and such in the story.

 

Arya or Jon. Arya with Roose is great, but Jon and the band of NW men fleeing the wildlings is some of my favourite stuff from this book.

 

ASOS

 

Jaime. Man might be an attempted-child-murderer, but man is he fun to read about.

 

Catelyn. I really enjoy her chapters, even if they're generally so miserable that I felt less depressed after watching Schindler's List than after reading one of her chapters.

 

Sansa. Lot's of interesting stuff goes on in KL around her, and I enjoy her growth as a character.

 

AFFC

 

Jaime. Great character development, and his post-KL chapters have some great side characters: Daven, Genna, Tytos Blackwood (I know he's in Dance but it's the same arc).

 

Arianne. I think she's very realistically written (barring the odd male-gazey thing George slips in) and it's interesting to see a woman with natural political power in the series.

 

Cersei. I enjoy watching the trainwreck of her rule, and her 'everything would be different if I had a penis!' stuff is hilarious.

 

ADWD

 

Jon. It's all wonderfully built-up to the climax, with great characters and character interactions, and it's one of the few cliffhanger death moments that feels totally justified to me.

 

Theon. I think his arc in Winterfell is beautiful, even if the horror elements are a bit overdone at times.

 

Davos. That Manderly chapter is one of the best moments in the series. And I just love Davos, he's such a good man.

 

Least favourites:

 

Dany, without a doubt. I dislike the character and I have very little interest in the things that go on around her. Most of the characters around her are paper-thin too.

 

Sam. Mostly because of Feast, but I wasn't a big fan of his Storm chapters either.

 

Brienne. I love Brienne, but my God do I find her chapters dull. If there's a Sam/Brienne pair of chapters, I put the book down for the night.

 

Damphair. Religious zealotry is boring. Also, Damphair? Really George?

 

Hotah the walking camera.

[WindyNights]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Areo Hotah's chapters. They're legitimately interesting and pretty good. It's just that he's always the least interesting thing about them.

Doran: Until the mountain crushed my brother’s skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings. Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?

Areo Hotah: I dunno the author forgot to give me a personality

As for my favourite POVs:

AGOT

Ned without a doubt. Such a good man deserved a better fate than what he got (now isn't that a recurring theme?) and it was fascinating learning about the past from him. Poor bastard gave up everything for his siblings as well. Bet you that Benjen was his favourite simply because he didn't require some enormous sacrifice from Ned.

Arya. She breaks my heart when she talks about Mycah and how she feels responsible for his death. I hope Martin doesn't have a tragic end in mind for her. And I hope she gets a reunion with Jon at some point.

Tyrion. I enjoy his travels throughout Westeros, even if on rereads he's much more obviously a complete shit from day one. That's when George knew how to keep travelogues short and sweet.

ACOK

Tyrion is at his best in this. Apart from the Shae stuff, it's great to read.

Davos. I don't think this character has a chapter that I don't like. And it's refreshing to have a decent man amidst all the backstabbers and such in the story.

Arya or Jon. Arya with Roose is great, but Jon and the band of NW men fleeing the wildlings is some of my favourite stuff from this book.

ASOS

Jaime. Man might be an attempted-child-murderer, but man is he fun to read about.

Catelyn. I really enjoy her chapters, even if they're generally so miserable that I felt less depressed after watching Schindler's List than after reading one of her chapters.

Sansa. Lot's of interesting stuff goes on in KL around her, and I enjoy her growth as a character.

AFFC

Jaime. Great character development, and his post-KL chapters have some great side characters: Daven, Genna, Tytos Blackwood (I know he's in Dance but it's the same arc).

Arianne. I think she's very realistically written (barring the odd male-gazey thing George slips in) and it's interesting to see a woman with natural political power in the series.

Cersei. I enjoy watching the trainwreck of her rule, and her 'everything would be different if I had a penis!' stuff is hilarious.

ADWD

Jon. It's all wonderfully built-up to the climax, with great characters and character interactions, and it's one of the few cliffhanger death moments that feels totally justified to me.

Theon. I think his arc in Winterfell is beautiful, even if the horror elements are a bit overdone at times.

Davos. That Manderly chapter is one of the best moments in the series. And I just love Davos, he's such a good man.

Least favourites:

Dany, without a doubt. I dislike the character and I have very little interest in the things that go on around her. Most of the characters around her are paper-thin too.

Sam. Mostly because of Feast, but I wasn't a big fan of his Storm chapters either.

Brienne. I love Brienne, but my God do I find her chapters dull. If there's a Sam/Brienne pair of chapters, I put the book down for the night.

Damphair. Religious zealotry is boring. Also, Damphair? Really George?

Hotah the walking camera.

Aeron is an entertainingly huge HAAAAAM!!!

NO GODLESS MAN MAY SIT THE SEASTONE CHAIR!!!!

Also it's fun Euron smugly trolling everyone because he knows he has 40 IQ points on everyone in the Iron Islands besides Rodrik the Reader and Asha. But I suppose we see Euron trolling in other PoVS as well.

Edited March 6, 2016 by WindyNights

[glowbug]

I'll do my favorite POVs by book. It makes more sense to do it that way because of the inconsistency in my enjoyment of their POVs across the series.

AGoT:

Ned

Jon

Tyrion

Dany

ACoK:

Arya

Tyrion

ASoS:

Jamie

Arya

Tyrion

Davos

AFfC:

Jamie

-if only judging the last 25%

Jamie

Brienne

Arianne

ADwD:

Jon

Theon

Davos

[stillshimpy]

There are a couple of characterizations that sort of miss the mark, and in some places pretty widely.  I don't mind Areo Hotah's chapters, but he is an empty characterization.  He is a narrator vs. a characterization.  I do think Martin framed that character in such a way that it comes close to making sense:  A man defined almost entirely by his role in the world, not questioning it.  

 

It's just has no inner-world that relates to himself and that's not realistic to a human being.  Sure, there would be people who grew up in service, or as slaves who define their existence through vicarious living, but with Hotah it is taken to a degree that doesn't feel real.  Contrast that with the prologue in which the Maseter at Dragonstone observes everyone around him and thinks about Stannis as a boy.  Thinks about why he loves the King of Middle-Child-Syndrome and not only fleshes out the character of Stannis, he also feels like he has a pulse.  

 

Hotah is basically a robot.  He's the GoPro for Dorne.  I enjoyed Dorne, I enjoyed the cast of characters there,  but presume that Hotah shut down with a whirring sound every time his chapters ended, waiting to be activated for the next report.  

 

I did not personally find Sam's POV chapters successful.  I get what Martin was shooting for and tried to make Sam a result of an abusive childhood.   Unlike someone like Arya or Bran, or even Jon, Sam feels way too young for his age.  He also lacks definition beyond that one animating force.  If Hotah is overly defined by "I live to serve.  I think only of service"  then Sam's nearly every waking moment being spent thinking about what a fat, cowardly disappointment he is to his father also feels too focused on a single aspect.   Sam ends up feeling like the index card Martin wrote out for his character, vs.  an actual character.  He feels like a bunch of perambulating bullet points.  

Sam:  Overweight, drastically so, it's source of shame

Bookish, in a world that does not value academia, it's a source of shame

Cowardly, in a world that prizes valor, it's a source of shame

Has a relationship with Gilly, it's a source of shame!

 

Awesome.  A character who is Shame with (chubby) feet.  In a world where sister-schtupping Jaime is ticked that he can't proclaim his closely-related love for all to see and wonder at, is a golden god of a man, cares hardly at all for his father's opinion etc. etc "Hi, meet the exact opposite of Sam!"  Martin manages to make Jaime seem like a full person.  

 

Sam is perambulating psychological wound due to trauma.  So Sam just doesn't work for me as a character.  He doesn't have enough shading to feel real to me.  He's an idea with a central defining aspect.  

 

That's ultimately where I land with Dany though too.  Interesting idea.  Exploration gets too repetitive.  Dance's fixation on Daario is just embarrassing and feels too much like a dude trying to write a young woman, than reading the thoughts of a young, infatuated woman.   I do appreciate trying to create this character, he just got too bogged down in her defining aspects. ,overly explored them and at too much length. 

 

Weirdly Brienne doesn't feel like the same kind of failure to add layers to a character.  She is overly-mannered and awkward.  Again, the repetition on how ugly she is starts to feel reductive in and of itself, but she does feel like a character who has a full interior life.  Old wounds combine with new experiences.  She's trying her best to be what she admires, in a world that will not thank her for it.  She's good with a capital G in a way that feels close to real than Sam, who is wounded, with a capital W.  

 

There's also a weird note that makes Sam's characterization feel like a failure to me:  for someone obsessed with what a failure he is in the eyes of the world, who cares so much about the opinions of others he really doesn't seem to take in other people as full people.  He feels super young and very self-centered that doesn't really fit with the "I was an abused child" of it all.   I don't think Martin really researched what that kind of abuse does to a person or how a complete lack of self-esteem would manifest in someone.  He's very self-involved in a way that felt false to me.  

 

Sure, Euron is a tedious characterization.  Dumbhair plays on the "religious zealotry!" aspect to the point that he also feels a little too one note, but I think Sam is the biggest failed characterization for me, because he is so fully explored, but in a way that just rang false to me.  Everything that Martin outlines ought to make Sam a person desperate to please, but instead he's very prone to navel gazing in a way that does not fit his background. 

Edited March 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

@Shimpy That's rather interesting about what you said about Sam. GRRM has mentioned that out of all the characters in ASOIAF that he is the most like Samwell Tarly. (Which is kinda sad)

Edited March 6, 2016 by WindyNights

[Triskan]

Shimpy, I'm curious... I know you disliked almost anything Iron Island related, but I do wonder what you think of Euron. Were you sensible to his charismatic madness ? I know, for me, he was a delight to read about. Sure, he's a rotten egg, perhaps one of the most rotten of them all, but damn, that man has that bloody rock-star vibe (I know I'm repeating myself here). He's what Daario lamentably fails to be. And I'm amazed at how much Martin was able to concieve such a character. He's coherent in the end, in his twisted way and in that dark world. 

But he's not just the rock-star, he's more than that, he's also the mad scientist, the crazy traveller, he sailed the world more than probably every other man alive, he has gathered idols and tales from civilizations that have never heard of each other, he has discovered treasures and land unknown to any (probably)... man, if there was one "Planetos" character I'd like to read the mémoires or travel journals, it's Euron Bloody-Crows-Eye Greyjoy ! And written in his mad twisted way, it could be one hell of a reading ! ^^

Anyway, I know I'm extrapolating a lot on what few we know of the character, but I really found him fascinating to read about and was a big part of what I enjoyed, in the end, not on first reading, the Iron Islands chapters.

[stillshimpy]

He maybe a character who improves upon a re-read, Triskan, but he didn't make nearly as big an impression on me as he did for you and that's cool. 

 

One thing I'm kind of anticipating is that some of these characters I found so snoring-boring-or-unpleasant may actually improve when I have more patience with the narrative.  When I'm not reading to find out what happens next, you know?  These are just my "Well, I finished it and here's what I thought without going back for a second read" thoughts.  

 

All of the Iron Islanders are just so disgusting when it comes to their relationship to gender that I just can't stand any of them.  I like Asha when she's captured more than I like her at any point other than that.  Removed from the company of the other Iron Islanders, Asha became interesting in and of herself.

 

The Iron Islanders/Vikings, whomever they might be based upon, just aren't interesting to me because they just mistreat the shit out of women as a way of life, not as one of the terrible "we formed a marauding party and these men, these fathers, husbands and brothers, became animals because such is the nature of war.   They will return home, having done unspeakable things, if they return at all and these are the people who raise the next generation of fathers, husbands and brothers presumably hoping there will be no war to show them the dark corners of their souls." 

 

The Iron Islanders live in dark corners of their souls as a way of life.  I find almost no value in that as a reading experience.  Euron did have a Charles Manson like charisma, I suppose, but I just wanted to squish his head.

 

 

 

That's rather about what you said about Sam. GRRM has mentioned that out of all the characters in ASOIAF that he is the most like Samwell Tarly. (Which is kinda sad)

 

Well hopefully he's referring to the less horrifying aspects of Sam:  Martin is a guy who likely isn't a terror with a sword (I doubt I could even lift a proper battle sword to do more than drop on someone's foot and hope I could run away while they howled, so I feel him on that), likes to read as a form of escapism (no one who creates entire worlds in their heads is as navel-gazing, hobbled as Sam though) and who isn't much good in a land where getting very specific, arduous tasks done is the only really marked form of success. 

 

Honestly, unless there's a martial artist or fencing master in among us, Sam is the character who most resembles most of us.  We like to read, sure I take some kickboxing for fitness and can do something called Oz jump squats (sounds cute, really not though) ...but in a fight the most use I'd be to most of you would be if the bad guys tripped over my dead body and were slowed down long enough for you to get away.  That's gonna be the gig for the vast majority of people reading the books though.  

 

Since all of us are reading the books?  Right off the bat, he's the first character I have anything in common with myself.  So hopefully that's what Martin means.  If he was magically transported into his own world, of course I can see why he's got the most in common with Sam.  There might be a couple of people in among us who are great fishermen or hunters, in which case Wooo Hooo.  Reeds.  

 

I will say that my view of Sam is almost certainly formed by how irritating he was in the first seasons.  He'd walk three steps and fall down, and I'm barely overstating that.  If he tried to run, he'd fall down.  It was about all he did for three seasons.  

Edited March 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I've always found it kind of fascinating that the unwashed, illiterate Ironborn are the only people in Westeros have a system where they basically elect the guy that they think is best for the job. The Ironborn chapters aren't my favorite but I think the Kingsmoot stands out as being a great chapter. Asha makes great points and there are men who see the sense in what she's saying. They aren't the majority but it was enough to make me think 'Okay maybe there are a few people in there who are worth saving and could be more if they could just get out of this environment or have a different leader.' (A leader like Asha.) 

 

After reading TWOIAF I basically feeling the culture of the people in the North is about three steps up from the Ironborn. The right of the first night shit is the worst and it wasn't just the Boltons and Umbers who were are into it.

Then we have the melees destroying small villages for shits and giggles and I just can't with these people.

 

 

Also it's fun Euron smugly trolling everyone because he knows he has 40 IQ points on everyone in the Iron Islands besides Rodrik the Reader and Asha. But I suppose we see Euron trolling in other PoVS as well.

 

 

The Ironborn are such dumbasses in general, I can hardly stand it. One of the things that makes me roll my eyes about Euron is his crew on the Silence. Their tongues are cut out because Euron doesn't want any of them talking about what he gets up to and supposedly none of them read or write. He honestly thinks that this means that a man from his crew couldn't communicate something if he really wanted to? What if someone starts asking the men yes or no questions? 'Hey guys, did you ever sail to Valyria with Euron?' No? You don't say. 'Did you pick that horn up in Essos?'

 

All it took for Euron to get pissed was when the Reader questioned him and asked him if he really went there. Euron tries to play cool and he's anything but.  

[WindyNights]

Tbf, Euron's crew is most likely terrified about him.

Anyways there's a pretty good post out there that said something like if you gave Euron purple hair and silver-gold hair that you'd have a collective portrait of the Valyrian dragonlords.

https://madeinmyr.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/a-black-eye-shining-with-malice-thoughts-concerning-eurons-black-magic-and-potential-dark-powers/

Anyways I suggest everyone read this. It's a great analysis on Euron's character as well as a great analysis on magic in the series.

This stood out to me:

Returning to the original question, what does Euron want, assuming the Euron we have imagined is correct? The Euron outlined above is a man who actively elevates himself above humanity by imposing suffering on others. There’s more to this then just base enjoyment and ambition, as with the other villains of Ice and Fire. Euron in contrast is a man pursuing a spiritual quest into the utterly inhuman. He is attempting to become part of a supernatural order that literally feeds on people.

There is something or many a thing at work in the world of Ice and Fire that gives rewards for destroying what dearly belongs to another. There is magic in the screams of a burning sacrifice, the drugged pain of a castrated boy, the wasting of a shadowbinder’s lover, and the horrific agony of a vivisected woman. This is otherworldly power that can be gained from inflicting suffering that is above and beyond the power derived from merely material exploitation. It’s only a short leap from figuring this out about the world to deciding that this is all there is to the world; that instead of gods there are just hungry monsters and instead of questions of good and evil there is only the question of feasting with the monsters or being feasted on by them. Long ago the Undying of Qarth made such a leap and so did the Dragon Lords.

Fire and blood were the foundations of Valyria. At its heart the Empire was nothing more than a gigantic carnal house and torture chamber through which millions of slaves passed so that a few thousand warrior-sorcerers could work their will on the world. How did the Valyrians build their wonders: the Dragon Roads, the Long Bridge, the Black Wall, Dragonstone, and the far greater structures consumed in the Doom? How did they forge Valyrian steel or create glass candles? Death and pain were harvested and exchanged for everything the histories say “they made”. Whatever limits there were weren’t human ones. The tattooing of slaves in Volantis, the manufacture of Unsullied in Astapor, the thousands of rapes that occur daily in the pillow houses of Lys, the flesh powered forges in Qohor, the pit fighters training in Meereen, all these are nothing more than quaint remnants created by provincials aping or catering to the tastes of the mighty capital. All the black sorceries practiced in the shadows of Essos are either an inheritance from Valyaria or the legacy of similar societies that were just smaller in scale. If you think Euron is over the top, give him silver-blonde hair and purple eyes and you’ll have a collective portrait of the class that ruled the world for thousands of years. It was a civilization not unlike the Punic civilization imagined in A.K. Chesterton’s apologia The Everlasting Man:

The civilization that centered in Tyre and Sidon was above all things practical. It has left little in the way of art and nothing in the way of poetry. But it prided itself upon being very efficient; and it followed in its philosophy and religion that strange and sometimes secret train of thought which we have already noted in those who look for immediate effects. There is always in such a mentality an idea that there is a short cut to the secret of all success; something that would shock the world by this sort of shameless thoroughness. They believed, in the appropriate modern phrase, in people who delivered the goods. (PART 1 Chapter 6)

…

There was a tendency in those hungry for practical results, apart from poetical results, to call upon spirits of terror and compulsion; to move Acheron in despair of bending the gods. There is always a sort of dim idea that these darker powers will really do things, with no nonsense about it. In the interior psychology of the Punic peoples this strange sort of pessimistic practicality had grown to great proportions. In the New Town which the Romans called Carthage, as in the parent cities of Phoenicia, the god who got things done bore the name Moloch, who was perhaps identical with the other deity whom we know as Baal, the Lord. The Romans did not at first quite know what to call him or what to make of him; they had to go back to the grossest myth of Greek or Roman Origins and compare him to Saturn devouring his children. But the worshippers of Moloch were not gross or primitive. They were members of a mature and polished civilization abounding in refinements and luxuries; they were probably far more civilized than the Romans. And Moloch was not a myth; or at any rate his meal was not a myth. These highly civilized people really met together to invoke the blessing of heaven on their empire by throwing hundreds of their infants into a large furnace. We can only realize the combination by imagining a number of Manchester merchants with chimneypot hats and mutton-chop whiskers, going to church every Sunday at eleven o’clock to see a baby roasted alive. (Part 1 Chapter 7)

[WSmith84]

Some info on Balon's father if anyone is interested, from TWOIAF.

 

 

It seems that Quellon Greyjoy was quite the reformer and seemed determined to integrate the Iron Islands with the rest of Westeros. He freed thralls, discouraged salt wives, encouraged marriages with the mainland, forbade most reaving and encouraged bringing maesters to the Iron Islands. He also fought for Robert after the Battle of the Trident, where he died in battle. Amazing that such a man managed to produce the sons that he did.

 

 

I think Rodrik the Reader is a pretty great Ironborn character. Hopefully by the end, either Asha or him will be ruling the Iron Islands.

 

You hit the nail on the head pretty well in regards to Sam, shimpy. I feel like most of his chapters can be summed up by 'I'm so fat, I'm such a coward, small bit of plot, I'm a fat coward.'

 

Btw, are you planning on reading the sample chapters from TWOW shimpy? You might have already said, but I missed it.

[Haleth]

I used to get extremely frustrated with Sam and impatient with his constant self flagellation until the chapter where he engineered Jon's rise to LC. I thought, yes! Finally Sam is going to have some agency! But then he started with the sniveling again when commanded to go to the Citadel. (Oh, no, blood! Oh, no, my father!) I'm sure Martin has a plan for him, but I can't imagine what the catalyst will be to snap him out of his whining. Probably some threat to Gilly.

[Avaleigh]

Some info on Balon's father if anyone is interested, from TWOIAF.

 

It seems that Quellon Greyjoy was quite the reformer and seemed determined to integrate the Iron Islands with the rest of Westeros. He freed thralls, discouraged salt wives, encouraged marriages with the mainland, forbade most reaving and encouraged bringing maesters to the Iron Islands. He also fought for Robert after the Battle of the Trident, where he died in battle. Amazing that such a man managed to produce the sons that he did.

 

I think Rodrik the Reader is a pretty great Ironborn character. Hopefully by the end, either Asha or him will be ruling the Iron Islands.

My guess is that

Quellon's kids were given a lot of shit for their father being so progressive and that they responded by going in the other direction.

Balon, Euron, and Aeron are all hung up on going back to the Old Way albeit for different reasons.

 

My hope is that Asha eventually gets to run things on the Iron Islands and that she's able to bring about some reform.  

[WindyNights]

My guess is that

Quellon's kids were given a lot of shit for their father being so progressive and that they responded by going in the other direction.

Balon, Euron, and Aeron are all hung up on going back to the Old Way albeit for different reasons.

My hope is that Asha eventually gets to run things on the Iron Islands and that she's able to bring about some reform.

I don't think Euron cares about the Old Way. He seems to have contempt for his culture who only think of short term rewards which makes sense for someone who wants to conquer the world.

Like he practices it but only because he enjoys it rather than having cultural reverence for it like Balon, Vic and Aeron.

[Andeleisha]

Hi shimpy, I know we've still got the Winds sample chapters for you to read, but I was wondering if you wanted to do a re-watch of the television show now that you've read the books? This is the time of year when I usually do a rewatch in preparation for the new season, so if you were interested, maybe we could extend the fun of this thread and all rewatch together?

Season six airs on April 24h, so we've got plenty of time. I thought I'd bring it up early because I know not everyone enjoys/has the time to binge watch!

[stillshimpy]

Hi shimpy, I know we've still got the Winds sample chapters for you to read, but I was wondering if you wanted to do a re-watch of the television show now that you've read the books? This is the time of year when I usually do a rewatch in preparation for the new season, so if you were interested, maybe we could extend the fun of this thread and all rewatch together?

 

That would be fun :-)  HBO Go has all the seasons available and I think I might be less like to have an apoplectic fit now that I've read the story. 

 

Although, I do admit that the reason I'm likely to watch season six is a grim fascination with the concept of whether or not they can, or will even attempt to, fix some of the stuff they did.  

 

Almost immediately the first thing that came to mind are the scenes I'd have to fast-forward through and that's absolutely going to be the stuff between Renly and Loras in that shaving scene.   That was the start of some of most insulting material in the show and I'll never quite understand the choices made.  They made Renly afraid of blood.  What the fuck was that?  Perhaps people wouldn't understand he was gay, so they had to turn the cliches up to Eleventy billion.  Loras can't stand body hair, Renly's afraid of blood (<---- so  that one upsets me beyond the telling of it,   they made Renly into a Victorian Lady with a case of the Vapors, because....?  In the book he's an experienced warrior ....so they did it solely to emphasize something about his sexuality and it makes me want to heave chairs through windows). 

 

But other than "Oh that would be fun, except for my rage triggers" and there's no way I'm watching that Theon's Tortureland Tour ever again stuff.  

 

One more thing about the character POVs, the one I sort of consistently don't say much about is Cersei.  There's no real reason for that other than she's such a different character in the books and whereas her chapters never dragged, she's delusional in a strangely amusing way (as she does heinous things all over the place) ....a while back I'd tried to figure who, if anyone was exhibiting the seven deadly sins, which are often popular characterization tools for writers and that's pretty apparent in Cersei.  She is Pride/Vainglory.  

 

It's weird, because all of the things that make Sam feel a little empty for me -- a tad two dimensional -- should be present in Cersei also, because she similarly has pretty much one defining aspect ...Vanity (with a dash of jealousy added to leaven the mix) .   Still, something about her makes her a more successful character for me and I can't put my finger on precisely what that is.  

 

My best guess is that if a character is going to have a main characteristic the defines their relationship to self and interaction with others, I think it's easier to maintain realistically if that characteristic is based in any kind of arrogance, puffery, or self-aggrandizement.  Cersei being an almost textbook Narcissist rings truer than someone with no self-esteem whatsoever because having that as an animating force for a character would still allow them to get shit done in the story, I suppose.  

 

Sam's crippling self-doubt and constant berating of self as well as weirdly telling just about everyone who will listen that he's a coward,  just feels like the story should have chewed him up as grist for the death mill by now, I suppose.   Plus, it's that last: He frequently tells people, Jon in particular "I'm a coward.  Can't help it.  I'm coward.  Don't make me go! I'm a coward! Blood, sets off my cowardice!"  ....and there's kind of a contradiction implicit in that.  This assertion of something about himself as justifying reason for why he needs special treatment is a contradiction, I think.  A lot of the time Sam is asserting that he is incapable of doing something, ought to be excused from doing something, because of his laundry list of perceived weaknesses.  But being that assertive about it actually doesn't fit with the trait he keeps telling people he has, you know?  

 

I also get that it's partially because Sam isn't as much of  a coward as he claims to be and that he has found the mettle within to do things on multiple occasions.  That maybe that contradiction is purposeful on Martin's part.  It's just in thinking about how many pages have been written about these characters, it seems to me that it would be, not merely acceptable but preferable, to have a character achieve and sustain growth.  The circling back to the first known traits in almost every POV for Sam also makes it a case of "Oh for goodness sake, just grow already and please stay grown for a bit."  

Hi shimpy, I know we've still got the Winds sample chapters for you to read, but I was wondering if you wanted to do a re-watch of the television show now that you've read the books? This is the time of year when I usually do a rewatch in preparation for the new season, so if you were interested, maybe we could extend the fun of this thread and all rewatch together?

 

That would be fun :-)  HBO Go has all the seasons available and I think I might be less like to have an apoplectic fit now that I've read the story. 

 

Although, I do admit that the reason I'm likely to watch season six is a grim fascination with the concept of whether or not they can, or will even attempt to, fix some of the stuff they did.  

 

Almost immediately the first thing that came to mind are the scenes I'd have to fast-forward through and that's absolutely going to be the stuff between Renly and Loras in that shaving scene.   That was the start of some of most insulting material in the show and I'll never quite understand the choices made.  They made Renly afraid of blood.  What the fuck was that?  Perhaps people wouldn't understand he was gay, so they had to turn the cliches up to Eleventy billion.  Loras can't stand body hair, Renly's afraid of blood (<---- so  that one upsets me beyond the telling of it,   they made Renly into a Victorian Lady with a case of the Vapors, because....?  In the book he's an experienced warrior ....so they did it solely to emphasize something about his sexuality and it makes me want to heave chairs through windows). 

 

But other than "Oh that would be fun, except for my rage triggers" and there's no way I'm watching that Theon's Tortureland Tour ever again stuff.  

 

One more thing about the character POVs, the one I sort of consistently don't say much about is Cersei.  There's no real reason for that other than she's such a different character in the books and whereas her chapters never dragged, she's delusional in a strangely amusing way (as she does heinous things all over the place) ....a while back I'd tried to figure who, if anyone was exhibiting the seven deadly sins, which are often popular characterization tools for writers and that's pretty apparent in Cersei.  She is Pride/Vainglory.  

 

It's weird, because all of the things that make Sam feel a little empty for me -- a tad two dimensional -- should be present in Cersei also, because she similarly has pretty much one defining aspect ...Vanity (with a dash of jealousy added to leaven the mix) .   Still, something about her makes her a more successful character for me and I can't put my finger on precisely what that is.  

 

My best guess is that if a character is going to have a main characteristic the defines their relationship to self and interaction with others, I think it's easier to maintain realistically if that characteristic is based in any kind of arrogance, puffery, or self-aggrandizement.  Cersei being an almost textbook Narcissist rings truer than someone with no self-esteem whatsoever because having that as an animating force for a character would still allow them to get shit done in the story, I suppose.  

 

Sam's crippling self-doubt and constant berating of self as well as weirdly telling just about everyone who will listen that he's a coward,  just feels like the story should have chewed him up as grist for the death mill by now, I suppose.   Plus, it's that last: He frequently tells people, Jon in particular "I'm a coward.  Can't help it.  I'm coward.  Don't make me go! I'm a coward! Blood, sets off my cowardice!"  ....and there's kind of a contradiction implicit in that.  This assertion of something about himself as justifying reason for why he needs special treatment is a contradiction, I think.  A lot of the time Sam is asserting that he is incapable of doing something, ought to be excused from doing something, because of his laundry list of perceived weaknesses.  But being that assertive about it actually doesn't fit with the trait he keeps telling people he has, you know?  

 

I also get that it's partially because Sam isn't as much of  a coward as he claims to be and that he has found the mettle within to do things on multiple occasions.  That maybe that contradiction is purposeful on Martin's part.  It's just in thinking about how many pages have been written about these characters, it seems to me that it would be, not merely acceptable but preferable, to have a character achieve and sustain growth.  The circling back to the first known traits in almost every POV for Sam also makes it a case of "Oh for goodness sake, just grow already and please stay grown for a bit."  

[WSmith84]

Rewatching the earlier seasons might be fun, though with my new outlook on the show I'll probably find myself being incredibly harsh on every flaw. The portrayal of Loras and Renly is probaby the first season's greatest flaw. What I can't understand is the actor for Loras, Finn Jones. He was very outspoken in his criticism of Loras' portrayal, but has since done a complete 180 and now (along with Maisie Williams, sadly) slams book fans who criticise the show.

[stillshimpy]

You know, I can completely understand why the actors need to be supportive of their workplace, their careers and the stuff that puts the positive numbers in the bank account.  It's a very, very rare actor who can speak out against their employers on any level.  I can completely understand why he'd change his tune on that, he probably got scolded for it by his agent or the show.  Or both and he was smart to listen to that.   

 

You have to be far, far more famous than he is to get away with saying derogatory things about a production you're in and it's not wise to do so.  Acting is one of the most competitive industries anywhere.  Being an employed actor is a tremendous privilege and sometimes it's best to simply say very little.  

 

People have lost careers over saying things that were ill-advised in the press.  Whereas it's obvious the show did a shit job with the depiction of gay characters, if he wants to remain employable in that industry, it is not wise to say anything other than "It's an honor and a privilege to work with this talented group of writers and actors.  There will always be differences between a book and a production and there's room to love both, sometimes for separate reasons" because among other things, not only will that keep you employed, it's almost universally true. 

 

Discretion isn't just the better part of valor; it's the stuff that will keep your rent from being overdue too. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I suppose that's true shimpy. What irks me more is the new criticising of book fans who have problems with the show. Not every criticism (or even the majority of them) is down to the fact that it's different from the source material.

 

Anyways. Speaking of Sam has reminded me of something: what the hell was George thinking with the Feast prologue? I don't think it's a bad chapter in and of itself (which I could say about a fair few chapters in Feast and Dance) but it makes no sense to be in Feast. It's the start of a plot that doesn't even happen in the book it's featured in! It contributes practically nothing to the entire book (or Dance) and really just acts as a sort of cameo at the end of the book. And it's doubly disappointing because the Citadel plot actually looks mighty interesting (and hopefully Sam will grow up a bit).

[OhOkayWhat]

WSmith84, I think in the interview you are talking about (maybe it is another interview), Finn Jones criticizes the attitude of a group of people that complains only for the sake of complaining and he is not talking about all the book readers or even about all the criticism. About Maisie, I think she also criticizes only some people, and she gives her reasons, an example (if I remember correctly) is when she criticizes some bookreaders who like to troll show watchers telling them spoilers of the book.

 

I will not defend all the things an actor/actress says, but I need someone pointing me a particular interview to analyze how much of a 180 degree change they had and if they had a reason to do such change of opinion.

 

(And I really need to start using the quote box thingie in the forums)

[OhOkayWhat]

Shimpy, please read my previous comment. I think sometimes people suppose without proof that the actors/actresses of the show get "scolded" if they say anything wrong about the show. I think they have the right to change their opinions without people thinking they are told for their bosses or agents to do that.

Edited March 7, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[stillshimpy]

I suppose that's true shimpy. What irks me more is the new criticising of book fans who have problems with the show. Not every criticism (or even the majority of them) is down to the fact that it's different from the source material.

 

That's also entirely a valid point, WSmith but I don't know that it is actually going to go any better for him for saying, "My employers are creating almost slanderously insulting depictions of gay men, but it's an honor and a privilege to be paid to act, regardless!"  

 

And I think what also gets lost a lot of the time, is that when actors encounter fans, or read what they've written, it is the most unhinged people who stand out the most.  So the carefully considered opinions, the rational "Listen, LGBT community has fought long and hard simply to be viewed as full human beings with their sexuality as part of their entire personhood, please stop creating negative stereotypes that reduce people to mannerisms and the worst cliches, it's reductive and insulting"  ....which is measured and sane.  

 

Nope, instead they'll remember the person with a complete inability to spell that talks about wanting real live people to combust and perish.  Another thing is that people and actors really don't understand the language of the internet.  There is no tonal inflection, so hyperbole is the only thing that can infuse the written word with it.  It stands in for strength of feeling and adamancy.   I've yet to read an interview with an actor, or showrunner who seems grasp that.  That's not entirely true, Ronald D. Moore did seem to get that.  

 

But anyway, it does make sense that a group ends up being defined by the worst among them.  If you go to a convention as an actor and 99.999% of the people you've encountered are lovely and respectful, never would think of interrupting your meal or private conversation, or in any other way demonstrate a poor grasp of boundaries, really the thing will stand out are the two socially crippled people who followed you into a bathroom and tried to have a conversation with you while you're urinating.  

 

I feel for everybody involved in those circumstances, because if you're not the scary assed internet fan it's hard to understand how one might end up tarred with that brush.  Until you encounter that behavior. you know?  

 

I don't actually eat meat, although I do eat some fish there are people who have known me for years who have never seen me eat fish.  It always takes a bit for me to convince people, "Eat whatever you want, not only will I not care if you eat an entire cow in front of me, I will ask if you need a sharper knife and pass you the steak sauce so you can better enjoy it."  That's solely down to the person every single person meets, the person I've met:  The jackass Vegan, who takes every opportunity to shame, scold and call other people names about their dietary choices.  The person who mainly wants to feel superior and shame the shit out of other people for no decent reason.  

 

So the rest of us get stuck making up for that guy (or girl) in almost all of our encounters, because people anticipate the worst behaviors they have encountered from any group.  Also, in that example, it also has to do with people not understanding degrees of something and tend to conflate Vegans with Vegetarians, Pescetarians, etc. etc. but that's kind of neither here nor there.   

Except for how it actually isn't, because I'm sure after a while the second an actor, director, writer encounters anything that seems to be in the same vein, they start shutting down thinking "Ah shit, I know where this is going and I'm out of Advil as it is....no way....no how."  

 

And I am willing to bet a substantial sum that the actor who plays Loras has had some absolutely snatch-him-baldheaded type of fan encounters.

 

ETA:  

 

please read my previous comment.

 

We were cross-posting, as it happens :-)  But absolutely, I will.  

 

 

Anyways. Speaking of Sam has reminded me of something: what the hell was George thinking with the Feast prologue? I don't think it's a bad chapter in and of itself (which I could say about a fair few chapters in Feast and Dance) but it makes no sense to be in Feast. It's the start of a plot that doesn't even happen in the book it's featured in! It contributes practically nothing to the entire book (or Dance) and really just acts as a sort of cameo at the end of the book. And it's doubly disappointing because the Citadel plot actually looks mighty interesting (and hopefully Sam will grow up a bit).

 

Oh my god do I ever agree with this.  That was downright disorienting because nearly two thousand pages later, it exists in a vacuum thus far.  I'm sure it's going someplace, but there were a couple of instance in which I felt, "Wait, did I skip a chapter?  Did this ever come up again?"  and that's how I felt about that from there until the epilogue in Dance where the seemingly preternaturally large white Raven showed up with a giant "Remember that Citadel Plot?  Good.  More to follow in six more years."  implication. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I have to separate favorite characters from favorite POVs because there are some POV characters that I don't like - but interesting things happen in those chapters.  I think Catelyn is one.  I really, really don't like her, but interesting things happened in her chapters.

 

For the first three books, my favorite characters were easily Tyrion, Jon, and Ayra with Dany ranking an honorable mention.  Of those, I continue to love Jon and Ayra, but while his story remained riveting - I'm quite ready for her to rejoin the bigger cast of characters.  I do not like Tyrion or Dany's stories in Dance.  I remain hopeful that I will enjoy Tyrion again, but I have serious doubts about liking Dany again.

 

With Tyrion and Dany falling - I think Jamie filled the gap.  I'm undecided about rather or not I can believe he is (or can be) redeemed, but I think his story is one of the best of the series.

 

While I do not feel overly attached to any of the characters in Dorne or Winterfell in books four and five - I do find them very interesting plots.

 

-I have a very hard time investing in anything Ironborn related even if I do like Ashra.

-I kind of feel the same way about Cersi as I do about Roose and Ramsey - they are rather uninteresting villains whom I'm ready to see fall.

-I'm not overly invested in Margeary or Tommen, but if they could somehow escape all the bad stuff that's coming and go live in Casterly Rock - I would be happy for them. I know that probably won't happen, but it will probably depress more than anything else when bad stuff happens to them.

-I could end up being very interested in (f)Ageon so I kind of wish he had been introduced earlier.

-I am interested in Bran, but he isn't a favorite character per say. 

-Sansa's stories bore me and always have. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by nksarmi

[vibeology]

Sam's crippling self-doubt and constant berating of self as well as weirdly telling just about everyone who will listen that he's a coward,  just feels like the story should have chewed him up as grist for the death mill by now, I suppose.   Plus, it's that last: He frequently tells people, Jon in particular "I'm a coward.  Can't help it.  I'm coward.  Don't make me go! I'm a coward! Blood, sets off my cowardice!"  ....and there's kind of a contradiction implicit in that.  This assertion of something about himself as justifying reason for why he needs special treatment is a contradiction, I think.  A lot of the time Sam is asserting that he is incapable of doing something, ought to be excused from doing something, because of his laundry list of perceived weaknesses.  But being that assertive about it actually doesn't fit with the trait he keeps telling people he has, you know? 

 

I also get that it's partially because Sam isn't as much of  a coward as he claims to be and that he has found the mettle within to do things on multiple occasions.  That maybe that contradiction is purposeful on Martin's part.  It's just in thinking about how many pages have been written about these characters, it seems to me that it would be, not merely acceptable but preferable, to have a character achieve and sustain growth.  The circling back to the first known traits in almost every POV for Sam also makes it a case of "Oh for goodness sake, just grow already and please stay grown for a bit."

 

I've always been more forgiving of Sam, though I totally understand why people feel annoyed by the way he's written. I don't think George gets it right consistently with Sam, but I do love the idea of someone who is much stronger and more capable than they believe stepping up when the shit hits the fan and surviving. It does make sense that Sam is 100% that guy. He survived years of abuse at Horn Hill. Whether he knows it or not, he's a survivor. The problem is, and I think you did mention this somewhere Shimpy, is Sam can't read people and most abuse survivors are very good at reading people because that skill is a big key to survival. Sam doesn't otherwise read like someone who was abused his whole childhood and I think that's a weakness in the writing for sure.

 

I've been okay with Sam's story so far. He hasn't really had much time to relax since he went to the Wall. Its been crisis after crisis and it's very hard in that sort of non-stop action to take a moment and reflect about personal growth. Now that Sam has made it to Old Town and has a little more time and a little less stress, I want to see concrete growth from him in the next book. If we don't, I'll probably end up frustrated myself.

[WSmith84]

That makes a lot of sense shimpy. I think sometimes I'm a little harsh on the show since I've gone from thinking GoT was a fantastic show to genuinely dreading season 6.

 

So if anyone's tired of me complaining about the show, I'm now going to complain about the books. Joy to you all!

 

Feast and Dance have a tonne of problems, even if Dance is one of my favourite books. There is the Feast prologue, as I mentioned, but there are plenty of others.

 

- OK, this might seem like an odd complaint, but some of the chapters are moved from Feast to Dance for some strange reason. Cersei, Arianne, Jaime; they all have chapters in Dance, when they should really be in Feast (or in Jaime's case, the chapter should be in Winds). By including Cersei's and Arianne's in Dance instead of Feast, it cut off the story arcs early and makes their appearance really abrupt. Jaime's character arc was actually complete in Feast; he had realized, somewhat, how toxic Cersei was and rejected her by burning the letter. To then have a chapter in Dance that sets up the next part of his story just seems a poor choice, even if the chapter was actually pretty good.

 

- Too many cliffhangers. Now, some cliffhangers work well. Jon's, for example, is probably the best one. But half the bloody cast has a cliffhanger ending. Sam ends with him meeting the Faceless man, Barry ends just before the battle for Meereen, Jaime ends with him heading to meet Stoneheart... Brienne has two cliffhangers: the one with Jaime and the one where she's hanged. George needs to use that tool less.

 

- Bloat. There's a lot of filler in Feast and Dance. Brienne, Dany and Tyrion are the biggest perpetrators here. They could have (probably) half of their material removed and it would only make the book better, or at least shorter. And this bloat causes another issue.

 

- Incomplete story and character arcs. There are so many incomplete arcs in these two books and it can't be excused by saying that they're setup for later. A Game of Thrones was a setup book but it still managed to have complete character and story arcs. Brienne, Arya, Tyrion, Sam... none of them have a complete arc. Sansa doesn't even get an arc. None of the plot points get resolved. Not even the North, which I love, has a resolution to the story.

 

The sad part is that with some editing, some rewriting here and there and by including material that was presumably pushed to Winds, you'd probably end up with two pretty good books. They aren't the Star Wars prequels; they don't need to be completely rewritten in order to be great.

[stillshimpy]

With Tyrion and Dany falling - I think Jamie filled the gap.  I'm undecided about rather or not I can believe he is (or can be) redeemed, but I think his story is one of the best of the series.

 

Whereas Dany never made my top half of the POV list, in part, because there wasn't a lot of difference between screen Dany and page Dany, but also because of a couple of false notes I've mentioned.  Also, I'm very ready for her story to simply do something more.  To continue, to have her develop.  That outline you guys showed me doesn't indicate some kind of savior, or champion of justice and for too long, Dany has been about the only character anything good ever happens for (if not to, if that makes sense).  However, I fully agree that Jaime stepped in an added interest where I wasn't expecting it and in a lot of really surprising ways.  

 

 

 

The problem is, and I think you did mention this somewhere Shimpy, is Sam can't read people and most abuse survivors are very good at reading people because that skill is a big key to survival. Sam doesn't otherwise read like someone who was abused his whole childhood and I think that's a weakness in the writing for sure.

 

Heh, yeah, well chances are good I mentioned it because it's one of the points about Sam's character that irks me more than a little bit.  The only part of him that fits with the "I was abused horribly by my father, declared unlovable and made to feel worthless" is that ....for a moment imagine anyone talking that much about a perceived talent.  It wouldn't feel like a positive, it would feel like bragging.  Now, I don't think that Sam is boastful at all, clearly he's not, but that's isn't a trait you can completely reverse and have it be believable.   The opposite of a braggart isn't someone who declares their weakness and is crippled by self-doubt.  People crippled by self-doubt don't actually generally talk a lot and they usually will not catalogue their wounds or detractions to other people. 

 

As you mentioned, he doesn't come off as someone who has survived being victimized, because by broadcasting like that....it's the same as saying, "I'm informing you of what to use to hurt me!!!"  It feels off, because it's not how abuse victims act.  

 

Sam isn't guarded enough, for one thing, to be believable as someone who lived through what he describes.   Then also, for whatever reason, just when Sam was finally making some progress, George R. R. Martin decided to double-down on it by turning his backstory into something out of horror movie.  

 

Then the other thing?  No one who fears their father that much readily tells people about it as much as Sam does.  If he's almost pants-wetting terrified of his father, and it's justified, then standing there and asserting to Jon -- as an authority figure in Sam's life now (there are a lot of stumbling blocks in Sam's characterization) -- seems unrealistic also.  

 

That's why when it was brought up that Martin sees himself in Sam, I was immediately confident that at least it's not because his father abused the boogers out of him, because he lacks a fundamental understanding of what systematic abuse does a person, particularly a developing person and he's revisited it too many times, with more than one character for it to something he's looked into too much.  

 

First there is Dany and the "I'm sorry....what?!?" wedding night of Drogo seducing a 13-year-old child bride who has just been sold like a goat by her abusive brother.   Emotionally telling detail number one in the "I don't think George Martin understands the psychology of victims of abuse, both physical and emotional...."   

 

Then there's Sam.   

 

There's also Jon, who whether or not it's a note revisited, and it's not:  There was a detail in Jon's early characterization, actually a couple, that would have been devastating to an emotionally developing person.  But Martin seems to pretty much forget that Jon wouldn't even enter Bran's sick room for two weeks because he (quite rightly as it turns out) anticipates some monstrous behavior on Cat's part.  He's afraid of her.  Thinks of how when he was smaller a remark like that would have reduced him to tears, but now he's stronger.  She tells him it should be him lying there near death.   It is NOT subtle stuff and even though we are to take it he had compensating relationships, Jon would be truly fucked up from what Martin hints at.  He'd have questions about his worth as a person and...yeah. You get the drift. 

 

Then there's Tyrion and he's not a believable survivor of emotional abuse either.  Also, the stuff Martin describes with Cersei abusing a [i[baby[/i]?  Damaging, warping stuff. 

 

Then there's also Brienne and The Hound and ....Yeah, I feel confident in saying that whereas Martin likes to include abuse as part of a backstory, he might not really get what it does to people, because he really doesn't develop the emotional quality of those characters to reflect it.  Brienne is probably the person that comes closest and we're to understand that it was mostly her peers who were abusing her:  So she's a grown victim of bullying and I don't necessarily believe that's a coincidence.   That's the characterization that seems the most emotionally informed to me. 

 

I really like the stories, but I do think that the strength lies in areas outside of realistic emotional development for several characters.  

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

You know what was always one of the most obvious 'I need to get X done quickly in the story' moments for me was? Dany getting the Unsullied. The Masters have to have been suffering from the greatest case of plot-induced stupidity that I've ever seen. I mean, they sell their entire army (except for a few glorified 'soldiers') to a girl for a dragon and they don't even consider the possibility that she might just turn on them afterwards to get her dragon back. Surely it should be policy that you don't sell off your entire supply of slave soldiers, regardless of what they're offering. That someone might turn on them must have occurred to at least one of the Masters. It would be like selling all the guns you're carrying to someone in exchange for a massive diamond in the middle of nowhere; even if they don't kill you and take back the diamond, somebody else surely will. How did Astapor plan to defend themselves from Dothraki without the Unsullied? And for God's sake, if you are going to sell someone all of your soldiers, don't do it inside the city walls.

[ambi76]

You know, I can completely understand why the actors need to be supportive of their workplace, their careers and the stuff that puts the positive numbers in the bank account.  It's a very, very rare actor who can speak out against their employers on any level.  I can completely understand why he'd change his tune on that, he probably got scolded for it by his agent or the show.  Or both and he was smart to listen to that.

 

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened in Finn's case and I was actually amazed how long it took until someone from the show slapped him down (probably because he is just a speaking extra). Some of the thing he said in interviews before were really ... um ... not show/workplace friendly. He also seems to have changed his tune because of some of the season 6 stuff for Loras he seems to like at least, so it's probably a bit of both, OhOkayWhat.

 

Sad shimpy, that you have so much distaste for that first Renly/Loras scene, because IMHO it's actually the only decently written scene for Loras on the show ever, where he acts most in book!character. I can forgive the weird Renly characterization (although with the later stuff it gets unforgivable) as making him look wimpy here to make Loras look tougher. But that's also hilarious with how wimpy they've made Loras look since then for the rest of the show. Hell, people are commenting now that Finn is getting to play a Marvel superhero with stuff like: "Wow, and he plays a total wimp* on GoT."

 

*I have seen many (not very polite) things attributed to book!Loras but wimp is not one of them.

Edited March 7, 2016 by ambi76

[Terra Nova]

I am posting this just because it's been asked for evidence, but of course I agree with Shimpy wrt how actors cannot really express freely in such a big expensive production (Jones got the main role in a Netflix production, after all...):

 

So here before the 180° (the videos should start with the relevant bits already, but anyway they're respectively at 57  and 25 seconds):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIELxURfZ0#t=57

 

 

This is him after the backlash directed at Season 5:

 

 

As for Maisie Williams, while she has a point against 'rude' book-readers who like to spoil stuff on youtube (though I can say the comments on YT are one of the unruliest part of the internet and the jackasses abound, and that anyway D&D sure did take a jab at us and spoiled book 6 at the first occasion *trollface*), most of us got really offended at stuff like this one:

 

"[Lady Stoneheart] was a massive deal," Williams tells TVline, "but honestly, I really like [the backlash]. Book readers think they know what's coming, then we change it and it's really funny to watch their reactions."

"They're always like, 'That's not what happened in the books, so the show's really bad now' – but really, they just feel insecure because they're used to knowing what's coming next."

 

I find it quite childish (especially the 'they're insecure!' part), and it completely misses the point, since there is fair criticism that can be laid at the show's feet apart from 'it's not like in the books!'

 

ETA: let's take Stoneheart, since it's the example brought up by Williams: how can you convince me it's a good move to keep her out?! This maimed Catelyn's arc, robbed her of any closure to her quest for her children and wasted a lot of setup in Season 3! My sister, a show-watcher only, told me 'All this talk about Thoros and Beric being included, it must be because someone will get revived by them later!' She argued that they reeked of the usual book characters who get cut in an adaptation, but since they were on screen, they supposedly were some enormous Chekov's gun loaded and ready to fire. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

This is the most Loras that Finn acts in the show:

And of course it ended up being a deleted scene

[ambi76]

This is the most Loras that Finn acts in the show: And of course it ended up being a deleted scene.

 

Of Course. That why I didn't "dare" mention it.

[Terra Nova]

It escapes me why they didn't kept the scene, since it also serves as a last posthumous sanctification of their version of Renly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[stillshimpy]

Ha!  Yeah, you really can spot the managerial correction in Jones approach to press for the show.  

 

 

 

I find it quite childish (especially the 'they're insecure!' part), and it completely misses the point, since there is fair criticism that can be laid at the show's feet apart from 'it's not like in the books!'

 

Yes, she's a child, so that seems sort of fitting.  God I hate to think how much of a full-body-cringe I'd have to go into -- it might actually break me in two -- if someone had recorded me at the age of fifteen on any subject, pretty much at all.   Yikes.   So yeah,  it's just the "I know everything and understand everyone" arrogance of youth on display.  I'm positive the only reason I had any friends at 15 was ...they were all fifteen also....so all equally charming.  I can't imagine how horrid I'd have been if someone had asked me for an opinion and conveyed that my read on the situation mattered.  There are a couple of incredibly politic child actors -- many from the Harry Potter films actually -- who managed not to step in it up to their earlobes at any point, but that's because they had an entire production where the showrunners likely talked to them about how to talk to the press.   

 

So for Maisie Williams I do think taking offense is not appropriate.  Want to feel better about it?  Yeah, she's going to grow up and see tons and tons of clips of her adolescence, recorded for posterity and to try and live down.   I so feel for the Smartphone generation.   

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

It's weird, because all of the things that make Sam feel a little empty for me -- a tad two dimensional -- should be present in Cersei also, because she similarly has pretty much one defining aspect ...Vanity (with a dash of jealousy added to leaven the mix) .   Still, something about her makes her a more successful character for me and I can't put my finger on precisely what that is. 

 

For me, while Cercei is a horrible person, I can tell from the start that she’s not going to be successful in her horribleness.  Horribility?  Nastiness.  I think that’s due to the fact that we really get to know her through Tyrion’s eyes first.  In one of the Small Council scenes in CoK, she says something almost decent to Tyrion (“You’re not as useless as I thought” or something along those lines) and gives him a brief kiss.  His immediate reaction was “she’s up to something, Bronn, better find out what”.   My conclusion from that was Cercei isn’t nearly as clever as she thinks she is.

 

Then if AFFC we get inside her head, and discover that, yep, she definitely isn’t as clever as she thinks she is.  We can see how other people are playing her for a fool even if she doesn’t realize it.  It’s pretty easy to figure out that she’s headed for a fall,

 

She’s a little like Ned, in that I can see where each of them is making elementary mistakes (e.g., Ned trusting Littlefinger or revealing the incest treason to one of the perpetrators).  With Ned, my reaction was “why, why???”  With Cercei, I get all schadenfreude-y:  “that was stupid, and is going to come back to bite her.  Muahaha”.

 

Sad shimpy, that you have so much distaste for that first Renly/Loras scene, because IMHO it's actually the only decently written scene for Loras on the show ever, where he acts most in book!character.

 

I was gonna say the same thing.  I really liked his response when Renly called him a gifted knight.  “It’s not a gift.  No one gave it to me.  I work hard at it every day.”  Then flash forward to season 5

where he meekly allows a group of zealots to hustle him to prison.  Book!Loras would have fought back.

 

On the flip side, that first scene did include Renly commenting that if Loras wanted to shave him that much maybe he should just get a hairless boy.  So they thought it was a good idea to include the “gay” = “pedophile” stereotype.  [/eyeroll]

[stillshimpy]

On the flip side, that first scene did include Renly commenting that if Loras wanted to shave him that much maybe he should just get a hairless boy.  So they thought it was a good idea to include the “gay” = “pedophile” stereotype.

 

I hate that scene because I had no idea they loved each other.  Loras was clearly maneuvering Renly around, convincing to commit treason against his still living brother Robert.  So duplicitous with dash of strange hairlessness fetish , combined with Renly's fluttery, seemingly girlish reaction to the concept of blood (it made him feel ....faint....THE FUCK?) ....yeah, that scene is insulting on so many levels.  

 

I can see why people who had read the books might like it better, because you were looking for clues as to "Oh there's Loras' characterization!"  but with no greater context all I knew was Loras was a cheat (mare in heat jousting) , was sexually manipulating Renly (starts blowing him right after trying to convince him to move against Robert) , enacting strangely mincing stereotypes about "ew, hairiness" that bloody foley artist went insane on both the scraping and the fellatio sounds and then to top it all off?  The only other gay character in the series expresses a case of the vapors about blood and all things combat related.  

 

I am not in the least surprised that I continue to hate that scene, because it was really icky on so many "enact the stereotype, engage swishing cliche drive and....to fainting-at-the-sight-of-blood and beyond!" ugh. 

 

However, it was eventually replaced as my least-favorite-scene by the Margaery and Renly, Renly-fears-breasts scene.   

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Shimpy, while I get your point, Maisie Williams is 18, an age at which here in Europe you start to be legally responsible for what you say and generally considered an adult. Three years are a lot at that age, so I won't give her too much slack for that. And that interview is only few months old.

The point is more her parroting what the showrunners say, same logical fallacies included, or being used as a shield against criticism, not differently from last San Diego Con where D&D deserted for the first time and left Sophie Turner and Alfie Allen to get the criticism for the rape (incidentally, they're now redoing the same using Maisie Williams on the commentary for that episode, some excerpt of which are already floating around in the last disgraceful Brian Cogman's interview, trying to implying that since an actress not in the scene is fine with said scene, then everyone should).

 

That said, I bear no ill will to Maisie, nor I cherish the thought of her rethinking once GoT will be over what she was made to say. Actually, just the thought makes me feel ashamed by proxy ^^'

 

ETA: I am getting a little bit inflamed (a spurt of show-bashing apparently), so I think for tonight I will abstain from further posting ^^' 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Maisie Williams is 18, an age at which here in Europe you start to be legally responsible for what you say and generally considered an adult. Three years are a lot at that age, so I won't give her too much slack for that. And that interview is only few months old.

 

I've got a 25 year old son, legality aside, that's the age at which ones brain that controls impulses finally stops developing.  From a brain development standpoint she's seven years away from being fully cooked.   That's not to say that I don't believe 18-year-olds should be held responsible for their actions, or not considered legal adults until they are 25, but that it's still late adolescence and it's particularly worth considering in the context of things she said off-the-cuff.  

 

I'd say 18 is actually worse than 15, 15 people are usually still people pleasers, I was an early bloomer in the obnoxiousness department (my dad died that year, does wonders for the development of obnoxiousness)  ....and honestly, my son's worst age was 20.  He was a super good kid, except for about an 18 month period following the age of 19....almost entirely because he was so convinced he was a grownup and knew everything.  

 

He's 25 now and still regularly apologizes for that 18 month period in which he was nearly insufferable...and just from things he'd say....it's a bad, bad age to have anyone permanently recording your words.  

 

By the way, there are some people who are lovely from start to finish in their lives.  Some people don't go through that awkward "Oh god, cringe, cringe, cringe...." sort of stage....but unfortunately the sort of people who are attracted to performing often aren't served well by that combination of still-developing brain and people interviewing them.  It's often made worse: witness so many, many teen stars. 

 

I agree, it was a graceless thing to say and she'll likely turn red as tomato thinking about it in fifteen years, but I would put that down to her age still.  

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[OhOkayWhat]

Terra Nova, Shimpy, WSmith84, Ambi76, WindyNights (again, I hope I am not forgetting someone), about the youtube interviews with Finn, well, that is exactly my point! there is NOT 180º change with Finn. In the first interview, he points things he likes and things he does not like about the show. In the second interview he points things he does not like about some part of the show audience.

 

It is like this:

 

First, actor F criticizes part X of the script.

Later, actor F criticizes part Y of the audience (in this case, it is the part of the audience who complain only for the sake of complaining, he does NOT talk about ALL the criticism, and that makes sense since he also pointed things he did not like before)

 

Therefore there is NOT contradiction , there is NOT 180º change and there is NOT the logical need of someone scolding him to do that, you only need to believe is that he is someone having opinions about the whole Game of Thrones phenomenon, in this case about two DIFFERENT elements of it: the script and the audience.

 

I think, (and I could be WRONG) this is part of the whole : IT IS THEM OR US mentality in some parts of the fandom. Finn first criticizes an element of the show, then one side say: he is one of us! he does not like the show!, and if that side ALMOST ALWAYS criticizes, they expect he doing the same too. But it is simply the case of someone who have different opinions about different things without the need of an agent or boss telling him to do that.

 

About Maisie, yes, she made a mistake complaining that ALL the bookreaders behave the same way (being snobby and telling spoilers) in the internet. But lets read the whole paragraph about the issue in the interview (Sometimes the problem is that a webpage quotes an interview from another webpage in a different order and that is confusing. Of course, I am not sure if that is the case this time) :

 

 

 

TVLINE | Being a social media pro, I’m sure you’re aware of the Lady Stoneheart outcry. Any thoughts on that?

 

Maisie: That was a massive deal, but honestly, I really like it. I’m so sick of going on the internet and seeing all the book readers being snobby, spoiling it for other people, then saying, “Well, it’s not a spoiler. The books have been out for years.” Like, couldn’t you just stop being mad for a second and let other people enjoy the show? They feel they have a claim on the series because they read the books first, and I understand that, but they don’t need to be mean about it. That’s why I liked moments like this, because book readers think they know what’s coming, then we change it and it’s really funny to watch their reactions. They’re always like, “That’s not what happened in the books, so the show’s really bad now.” But really, they just feel insecure because they’re used to knowing what’s coming next.

 

 

 

As we can see, she made that mistake, but at the same time, we should consider that it was her experience in the internet with (it seems) lots of bookreaders trolls that made her to think all the bookreaders behaved the same way. Of course, she should be careful and read more, that way she could find there is lots of good book readers and intelligent criticism of the show. And also, even if we find trolls, we should NOT wish that other people troll them.

 

About Stoneheart, we can explain the inclusion of Thoros and Beric in the show without her, as a narrative element to develop Arya (a main character). Also, and this is a Season 5 spoiler, 

(after their meeting with Melisandre) as a narrative device to understand a possible Jon resurrection.

Edited March 8, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

Fun fact: GRRM has gone on record saying that Cersei looks like Nicole Kidman.

http://cinapse.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/dogvill.jpg

[stillshimpy]

Okay, in a fuller context Williams remarks are ...again, a little ill-considered and overstated at the very end there ...but there's context that makes her overstatement and generalization far less graceless than it appeared at first glance.  

 

On Jones we'll just need to agree to disagree.  In the first clip he is saying things about his character that are related to the book and his perception of the character.  

 

In the second he hews pretty closely to what sounds at least a bit canned and less impassioned.  Far less casual.  In the second clip he sounds practiced and that's okay.  Again, people doing press are stuck in a terrible position.  Things they say come back to them again and again, sometimes distorted.  Only when they start to get a sense of how close the attention being paid to every word they say is, do they really start having prepared answers.  

 

In that first clip, he's goofing around, he's playing with a sword, he shows no real awareness that "Oh sure, in half a decade people will still be linking to this as proof of my opinion! Everything I say can and will be aimed back at me, my team, and the show that employs me.  Best get the party line down."  

 

It's not accusing him of anything to say that he has a different tone in the second interview.  He does.  That does not sound like the words that are coming into his head and exiting his mouth and he's just coming up with them then and there.  And that's good for the guy's career.  I actually don't think it's particularly fair to want actors to give these very honest opinions on the productions they are involved with, because if things go well for them, they'll see these folks again and again.  

 

Everyone who works has a work persona if they interact with others.  That's all that's being called out in the second clip, "Oh....someone developed their interview/work persona with an eye and ear towards 'couch what you say with an eye towards it coming back and back and back".  

 

Also, amusing note in the first clip:  Whoever was sitting beside him trying to horn in on the camera framing was cracking me up.  

Edited March 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[OhOkayWhat]

Shimpy, about Maisie, as you said, she is young (if i remember correctly, the interview is from the end of July 2014), and she can change, we all change.

 

Another interesting thing about the second Finn interview is that we do not know what the question is. Sometimes we hear a question and immediately we say "I must answer it carefully". Once again, I have not proof Finn was told what to say in the interview, I can believe it is just his own personal opinion (in both interviews).

Edited March 7, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Haleth]

Maisie is 18? Wow, these kids are growing up too fast!

[WindyNights]

@Shimpy Speaking of human psychology, I think you can peg critical parts of the Baratheon brothers' personality to the loss of their parents.

Robert - It left a hole inside him which was turned into a huge pit once he lost Lyanna and led him to engaging in as much excess as possible.

Stannis- The injustice of seeing his parents drown led to him disavowing the gods and realizing that justice flows not from the gods but from men. Stannis wants to create justice in an injust world that took his parents away from him.

Renly- He never got to know his parents. He was an orphan and was raised by an older brother that was incapable of expressing affection so he learned how to get attention in any way he could from others.

Quotes:

Robert:

Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease.

Stannis:

Stannis stood abruptly. "R'hllor. Why is that so hard? They will not love me, you say? When have they ever loved me? How can I lose something I have never owned?” He moved to the south window to gaze out at the moonlit sea. "I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King's Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men".

Renly:

It was just the sort of notion that would appeal to Renly Baratheon; a splendid new order of knighthood, with gorgeous new raiment to proclaim it. Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics, and he had loved his games as well. “Look at me!” he would shout as he ran laughing through the halls of Storm’s End. “Look at me, I’m a dragon,” or “Look at me, I’m a wizard,” or “Look at me, look at me, I’m the rain god.” The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. "Look at me, I'm a king," Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? And would you care if you did? is there anyone who cares for him but me?

[Autarch]

Anyways. Speaking of Sam has reminded me of something: what the hell was George thinking with the Feast prologue? I don't think it's a bad chapter in and of itself (which I could say about a fair few chapters in Feast and Dance) but it makes no sense to be in Feast. It's the start of a plot that doesn't even happen in the book it's featured in! It contributes practically nothing to the entire book (or Dance) and really just acts as a sort of cameo at the end of the book. And it's doubly disappointing because the Citadel plot actually looks mighty interesting (and hopefully Sam will grow up a bit).

It's not so much the immediate plot, but it sets the theme for the whole book. In A Feast for Crows we have people taking over power, playing new parts, picking up where others left off. The idea is that George is setting up a bit of mummer's show, where the parts to be played are no longer feasible or justifiable, precisely because they're dead or dying (Westeros is dying, as Euron said, and everyone wants to feast). Feast can be seen as an examination of whether or not it's worth it, so to speak, to pick up these parts and play them to their ends.

 

Take Pate, for instance. The Alchemist offers him iron for gold (gold in this story being just another name for a dragon). Well Pate dies, but someone else picked up the part (the dead thing here) and is dragging it out to suit their own purposes. Pate, the self admitted worthless novice, now the puppet strung up on mummer's strings, but is he worth more after death? And with practically every pov in the story by the end of Dance being either dead or people thinking they're dead, I believe it foreshadows where the story is heading -- i.e. more characters taking up masks, more mummers.

 

And the iron to gold part (this is all over Feast if you look). The iron in this instance being black iron; black iron is the link for ravenry, and who is in the ravens but the deceased spirits of the children? If we carry the metaphor to it's conclusion, we end up with the basic transformation process behind all magic in Westeros  (lead/iron to gold, stone to dragons): we need our basic substance, and in the end we get the gold (the dragon here). But if it's the children behind the iron, does that not also suggest that whatever the end result of the magic is, that there's likewise a bit of mummery involved? A Feast for Crows, so does that mean the Children are stringing up all of Westeros?

 

Also interesting, though not really relevant, we have Rosey, whose maidenhead will cost a dragon. A rose, plucked by a dragon.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Autarch

[nksarmi]

Someone tell me Maisie was NOT 18 while filming season six please?  I am desperate afraid of what this team will do when the actress who plays Ayra is 18+ and certain options that were not there before now are.  I do not need to see Ayra seduce anyone and then redrum their ass - just saying.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Someone tell me Maisie was NOT 18 while filming season six please?  I am desperate afraid of what this team will do when the actress who plays Ayra is 18+ and certain options that were not there before now are.  I do not need to see Ayra seduce anyone and then redrum their ass - just saying.

Mercy,mercy,mercy....

[WindyNights]

hehe

[Terra Nova]

I think she was, because she's just one year younger than Sophie Turner, who turned eighteen just in time before filming last season.

Actually no, I checked and Maisie was born the 15th April 1997, so she'll be 19 in a month ^^ in fact now that I recall, shw already got a sex scene in a small independent movie filmed last year, though the name escapes me...

 

ETA: Also I realized now that I forgot to put the source for that Maisie Williams' interview, though I even commented briefly the rest of it ^^' but OhOkayWhat quoted the rest, so it should be fine.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

I'm like shimpy not so much bothered by what the kids are babbling in interviews (well, except for some facepalming that puts Picard and Riker to shame and then remembering what it's like to be around twenty and facepalming some more), and about something in Finn's latest interviews just screaming "intervention".

 

Yeah sure, OhOkayWhat, there is definitely camp building with the books vs. show stuff, and Finn has always been very enthusiastic about the books and the show. But I think someone really told him to shut the fuck up about Loras being too gay on the show. IIRC when once again asked about that at a convention in January he went with: "Nah not bothered about that. It's just a story-necessary focus at the moment(?). That doesn't sound like Finn at all and is pretty close to a 180°.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

That's really interesting, WindyNights, I do think that Martin is often incredibly careful to make sure his characters are doing things that are in-character, unless there is some "this broke them" moment (UnCat).  So whereas I don't find all of the notes he adds in for abuse to be realistic, I do have to give it to the man as a writer:  He keeps it very consistent, even when he decides on something a little atypical to the actual experience.  

 

That's actually kind of a rare gift in writers.  Writing characters to serve the plot is one thing and much easier, making the plot interact with the characters and only touching them to an extent in terms of essentials is really a difficult writing task.  

 

For instance, as much as I'm complaining that Sam doesn't feel realistic to me, Martin hasn't done the very stereotypical thing of having redefined entirely, his introductory traits are still there, rather than banished by a bit derring do.  I do wish he wouldn't have them revert quite so much and so often, but that's also knowing that he's resisting a lot of the pitfalls of writing a character with that sort of flaw.   I actually love the Narnia Chronicles and specifically the Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair are both really good and appealing children's books but I'm bringing that up because Eustace Scrubb is really good example of precisely that sort of re-invention-through-adventure.  Clearly, that's a children's book and no one in their right mind would confuse Martin's work with that.  

 

Still, that's usually the role of a coward in a fantasy novel.  Either they will betray everyone to save their own skin and go from coward to outright villain.  Or they find their inner-strength and are changed, usually saving the skin of the hero by the end of the book series.  I don't know, I'm having trouble putting a finger on precisely why Sam's character growth feels both wrong and yet also kind of impressive for what it doesn't do. 

 

It's also weird that I've spent this much time thinking about Sam, when he is one of my least favorite characters.  

 

It's also odd that I always have next to nothing to say about Cersie in the books also, I honestly don't even know why that is.  Her chapters didn't drag, she's so nuts it's often amusing.  I can't decide if she's the character I'm most looking forward to reading, or the one that I'm least looking forward to, because I am afraid that Martin will have her essentially unchanged on any level to an unrealistic degree.  That she'll have the opposite of Eustace Scrubb Syndrome rather than a 180, a 360 and onward.  

 

I'm sure you'll all get at least a little bit of a "Yeah, welcome to our world.  The world we've been in for decades some instances" reaction , but I keep stalling on reading the WoW chapters because I keep thinking, "Season Six is right around the corner, surely that book release date will be announced before then, right?"  and I'll get a sense of whether or not I should just wait.   Admittedly, I would want to contrast the changes anyway.  

 

So is there any particular order that they should be read in and where do I find them, please? 

 

ETA:

and about something in Finn's latest interviews just screaming "intervention".

 

Agreed.  I'm genuinely not suggesting anything about the actor's personal life or that he has any problems, but in that second clip the weirdest thought marched through my head "Wow, if they ever cast a biopic of Kurt Cobain , he'd be a good pick" and then had to wonder why I just thought that.  I think it's because Jones is sporting the old school Seattle Grunge vibe in that second video, but it did startle me for a second. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

First Arianne chapter:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/152918918/Winds-of-Winter-Arianne

 

Theon I:

http://archive.is/eoIl

 

Mercy:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140403003340/http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter

 

Alayne I:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

 

Someone several pages ago posted other links, maybe they have also Tyrion I and, I do not know whether Arianne II was actually released or those floating around are only transcriptions of some reading GRRM had at conventions (such are also Tyrion II, VictarionI, and I guess Barristan I... I stayed away from the Meereen plot since the battle will develop during several chapters and I didn't want to be left hanging)

 

ETA: I posted them in the order they were released: Arianne around nine/ten months after the release of Dance, Theon one year after that, Mercy around one week before airing of Season 4 and Alayne one week before the premiere of Season 5. Interspersed with them there were reading of the Meereenese chunk at conventions and fan gatherings.

 

ETA 2: there are also the two short stories about the original Dance of Dragons, the civil war between Targ; as I said upthread, they are written like a compendium of a master and some parts feel really compressed, but they're incredibly interesting for the lore and infos about ruling Targs. Also, dragons, in all their genocidal splendor.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Terra Nova