Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[John Potts]

I don't see much mystery about how Varys gets his information. It's a widely observed phenomenon that people simply don't register people they don't consider important - servants are so ubiquitous as to be effectively invisible (like the saying that you can get into anywhere with a clipboard and a positive attitude). It doesn't need to be ALL the servants - just enough to catch the important stuff - and probably report the gossip other servants are saying about what THEY heard. Look how Arya overheard what Tywin & Roose were saying on the show - that was a pretty realistic scenario

[Lady S.]

Oh thanks for the warning about the possibility of book six spoilers, Andaleisha! 

 

No there was something, something about Rhaegar's being sorrowful and playing his harp and some secret about something that happened when he was born.  When I mentioned it here, I could have sworn someone said he had a twin....or.....jeez, am I thinking of stuff from Dunk and Egg, maybe?  Sorry, I didn't highlight that one (at least not according to my keyword search).  I brought it up because I was kvetching along the lines that "Oh splendid, now dreamy, harp playing make-everyone-weak-in-the-knees boy has a secret sadness?  Oh yippee."  Or something very much like that.

Okay, I know what you're thinking of, but it wasn't so much his birth as what else happened that day in Summerhall, the Targ palace where he was born. The tragedy of Summerhall has been only vaguely alluded to in the main series. One reference was made by the Ghost of High Heart, assumed to be the woods witch friend of Jenny of Oldstones (Prince Duncan Targaryen's commoner bride) who prophesied that the PTwP would descend from Aerys and Rhaella. The full story is yet to be revealed in a future Dunk and Egg tale, the basics that we know so far being that Egg and Ser Duncan and a bunch of other people died at Summerhall that day, and the palace was left in ruins for Rhaegar to play sad songs in.

 

Here's what we learned of it in the World Book:  

The last years of Aegon’s reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.

 

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys. 

 

It is unfortunate that the tragedy that transpired at Summerhall left very few witnesses alive, and those who survived would not speak of it. A tantalizing page of Gyldayn’s history—surely one of the very last written before his own death—hints at much, but the ink that was spilled over it in some mishap blotted out too much.

 

FROM THE HISTORY OF ARCHMAESTER GYLDAYN

… the blood of the dragon gathered in one …

… seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king’s own septon had warned …

… pyromancers …

… wild fire …

… flames grew out of control … towering … burned so hot that …

… died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman …

There's an illustration which shows Rhaella giving birth to Rhaegar, presumably after she was one of those who escaped Summerhall.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

Thank you, Lady S!  That is what I was thinking of and in the Dunk and Egg tales there is a big story about one twin dying on the battelfield and one not in that Red Dragon/Black Dragon stuff.  I'd put that under spoiler tags, but that's just something that is discussed as having happened during a rebellion.  

 

 

 

I don't see much mystery about how Varys gets his information. It's a widely observed phenomenon that people simply don't register people they don't consider important - servants are so ubiquitous as to be effectively invisible (like the saying that you can get into anywhere with a clipboard and a positive attitude). It doesn't need to be ALL the servants - just enough to catch the important stuff - and probably report the gossip other servants are saying about what THEY heard. Look how Arya overheard what Tywin & Roose were saying on the show - that was a pretty realistic scenario

 

That scenario made sense because they were having a meeting at a table with servants there.   I'm not questioning things from "Oh my Gawd!! How could anyone ever know what goes on in the Small Council Meetings unless they used magicks?!?" but half the stuff in this story takes place in the dead of night or under almost cartoonish circumstance "Pssssst.  Jorah?  Over here.  You have been pardoned.  No! Don't look over there, where the assassination attempt is taking place!! Here's your pardon"  ....and that I didn't really question on the show, because ....yeah, it has to be made into a visual thing.  

 

But it's more than that.  It's more than people finding out that so-and-so went to someone's bedroom in the dead of night.  It seems like people who are not Varys or Littlefinger  end up knowing things in completely normal ways, everything Cersei finds out seems to come from some hideous treatment of some unfortunate soul.  Varys and Littlefinger seem privy to things that people are doing when they are trying to be discreet.  You look around when you're trying to be discreet.  

 

I just don't even want to attempt go into Knifey: The World's Most Distinctive Knife assassin plot, but that's one of those "Now, what the fuck?"  How did anyone in King's Landing end up knowing to do that? 

 

I'm not questioning the "over supper, this was overheard"  "in the course of dressing Lady Blabbermouth it was heard that Lord Blabbermouth was meeting with Ser Stabsalot, known enemy of King Currentlyconcerned" type of stuff...but half the shit that Varys seems to know about is stuff that is taking place between people who are trying to plot, trying to scheme , trying to get things done and actively thinking "oh we should watch what we say, har har!  The walls have ears.  Gulp."  

 

Point being, there are plenty of circumstances when people know to look around and to take note and are very specifically thinking of "Is there anyone else here?!?" and they will notice whether or not there is a fellow biped in the room who is not in on Team Treason, because they are trying to be careful.  

Edited February 22, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

So this is a stray observation that may not make a ton of sense to anyone not doing what I'm doing:  I went back to the start of this thread and started reading what was under spoiler bars, but I also started reading some of the things I thought at the very beginning of the story.  

 

And just like that, I finally got the appeal of Unsullied to Bookwalkers -- yeah, not because I find me so terribly charming or anything -- but because as I looked at what I was talking about and thought, "Huh, I can't even imagine thinking that stuff" and it really was WEIRD like reading AU me.  

[Terra Nova]

Maybe now it's time for 'A Sullied's take on an Unsullied's take on a Song of Ice and Fire', with a full commentary and re-read of the re-read thread XD

 

ETA: Just beware, Shimpy, from AFfC onwards the spoiler bars started mentioning also Winds of Winter material or last Dany's chapter.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

That is what I was thinking of and in the Dunk and Egg tales there is a big story about one twin dying on the battelfield and one not in that Red Dragon/Black Dragon stuff.

 

Maybe you're thinking of Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk Cargyll, twin brothers in the Kingsguard who were on opposite sides of the Dance of the Dragons civil war.  Sansa loves the song about how they fought and died weeping in each other's arms because of their intense brotherly love.  Its so sad and romantic and all that.  Apparently, it's also a fabrication -- they cursed each other as traitors during their battle.

[Terra Nova]

:'D I went reading some of the first pages of this topic too, and I stumbled on the 'oh, Jon is having a strange crypt dream... is he a seer? Surely not, the show would have never let something this big out', eheheh...

In fairness, I know the feeling, I was telling myself they would have never raped Sansa in Season 5 because it would have been too big a deal and, yeah, I was a sweet summer child...

[WindyNights]

Maybe you're thinking of Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk Cargyll, twin brothers in the Kingsguard who were on opposite sides of the Dance of the Dragons civil war. Sansa loves the song about how they fought and died weeping in each other's arms because of their intense brotherly love. Its so sad and romantic and all that. Apparently, it's also a fabrication -- they cursed each other as traitors during their battle.

No she's thinking of the Battle of Redgrass field where Daemon Blackfyre's twin sons get killed by Bloodraven and the Raven's Teeth.

[Delta1212]

So, because you've finished the books as written, this is now going to be as safe to post as it is ever likely to be:

About a year ago, a letter GRRM wrote to his agent back in 1993 when he had just started working on the series was posted online. It contained a rough outline of his ideas for the series (which he incisions as a trilogy). The thoughts explicitly referenced in the letter get us more or less up to the point that we're at now in the books (which he anticipated would cover book 1 of his trilogy).

Some of it is basically what happened, some of it you can see the seeds of what would actually make it to the page, and some is just... wow. There is some definite AU stuff going on.

There are a couple of things that could be considered vaguely spoilery (the names of a few characters that he sees as making it all the way through to the last book and who the story is essentially about), but A: a lot of the stories for those characters are very different from what wound up in the books and so that may or may not apply any longer, and B: There are no surprises there anyway. Unless you consider the (very, very) broad strokes of the direction that GRRM was thinking in a few years before the first book was actually published, there is nothing terribly spoilery, but it does provide some really interesting insight into where some characters came from and how they changed in the process of making it onto the page.

I'll link to the pictures of the letter and provide my transcription of each one under spoilers because it's easier to read and there are some reflections that make it difficult to read in the image, but I'm pretty sure I've figured out what all the illegible spots are.

Anyway:

Part 1

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, his will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of my principle characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be [the] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remain the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Part 2

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my series is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Danaerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Arya escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes, she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, Tyrion Lanister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Part 3

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further noth, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki, Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by the Dothraki bloodriders and in peril of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs. The birth of a young dragon will give Daenerys the pwer to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lanniser will continue to travel, to plot and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow.

[redacted section]

But that's the second book...

I hope you will find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

[Autarch]

I think a lot of that stuff is still planned, just that he switched the parts up here and there, expanded and adjusted the timeline, and added more players.

Dany for instance still seems set on getting revenge on a certain khal, and most likely she'll use Drogon to bend the Dothraki to her will.

As for Jaime taking the throne, that part has been switched to Cersei it seems, and with Varys' little trick in epilogue, I take it still more murders will be pinned on Tyrion.

[WindyNights]

Original! Jaime was basically Cersei and Jaime put together. But GRRM made them two people instead.

And GRRM seems to have transferred the Starkcest onto them as well but I don't think I'd be too surprised if Jon ended up with Sansa.

[Avaleigh]

Awhile ago I remember some people over at reddit trying to figure out what was under the black bars...I'm assuming there wasn't much progress on that front? 

 

I agree with Autarch that some of those things are still planned. 

[GertrudeDR]

I found this thread yesterday and have been devouring it. I've been following the Unsullied thread since the beginning and loved it. I made this account here just to tell you that Shimpy :) I also love what I am seeing in this thread so far and am now sad that I wasn't able to be part of the discussion as it was happening. At least I have so much juicy goodness to look forward to in this thread (I'm on page 7 right now).

 

I made the decision to watch the series as it forges on past the books, but it wasn't an automatic one. I've been thinking about it for a few seasons now and came to the conclusion early that I probably couldn't avoid being spoiled for the big stuff. If I was going to get second-hand spoilered anyway, I might as well watch the damn show and get that info first hand and let myself react and process it without it being filtered through someone else's lens. Now after reading a small part of how much you had to work at avoiding things, I know it's the right choice for me.

 

Also didn't realize Mya Stone was the same Mya as at Westeros. I knew the Unsullied were in good hands and this confirms it :)

[Delta1212]

Awhile ago I remember some people over at reddit trying to figure out what was under the black bars...I'm assuming there wasn't much progress on that front?

I agree with Autarch that some of those things are still planned.

There was more than you'd think, and I took a crack at it myself.

At least the parts that were decipherable didn't seem to have really been worth redacting, frankly.

[WindyNights]

I mean I feel like the show at this point can't spoil the books too much because it's too diluted. Characters take other character's roles like Aegon's role seems to have been split between Tommen and Daenerys. So you're not sure what's a spoiler and what's not.

GRRM's also still coming up with new twists that he feels are growing out of the characters that the show can't replicate.

Here's what he had to say about it:

" I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so."

(Safe for shimpy)(Season 5 spoilers)

Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. Balon Greyjoy, on the flip side, is dead in the books, alive on the show. His brothers Euron Crow's Eye and Victarion have not yet been introduced (will they appear? I ain't saying). Meanwhile Jhiqui, Aggo, Jhogo, Jeyne Poole, Dalla (and her child) and her sister Val, Princess Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Lord Wyman Manderly, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Brown Ben Plumm, the Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Bloodbeard, Griff and Young Griff, and many more have never been part of the show, yet remain characters in the books. Several are viewpoint characters, and even those who are not may have significant roles in the story to come in THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING.

[Mya Stone]

Also didn't realize Mya Stone was the same Mya as at Westeros. I knew the Unsullied were in good hands and this confirms it :)

Awww hey Gert!!!! Long time, my dear! Welcome!

[Avaleigh]

One omission that kills me because it could have been fixed in a single line is making Loras and Margaery Mace Tyrell's only children. Why not have a line about how Garlan or Willas are back at Highgarden? Some of these things are too simple that I don't understand why the showrunners are resistant. 

 

When I think of how many minor changes could have made significant differences to the story I shake my head. They could have saved so much money on the Dornish storyline by

dumping the Sand Snakes and Ellaria both in favor of Arianne.

 

More show spoilers

I didn't even need to see Balon's death. Just tell me that it happened and have it happen before Stannis makes the decision to barbecue Shireen. It doesn't make Stannis's choice any better but at least if this had happened there wouldn't be a clear example of Melisandre already having been wrong. He's seen for himself that her magic doesn't work but chooses to ignore this and it's though the leech spell is suddenly insignificant when this was a big part of what made Stannis continue to believe in her.

Original! Jaime was basically Cersei and Jaime put together. But GRRM made them two people instead.

And GRRM seems to have transferred the Starkcest onto them as well but I don't think I'd be too surprised if Jon ended up with Sansa.

Yeah, I feel like there are pretty decent arguments for Jon/Sansa being a future pairing, the main one being that Sansa is likely going to be queen and that leaves Tyrion, Jon, and FAegon in the running. Faegon and Sansa seems the least likely. Show spoilers--

apart from Faegon not being on the show

I can't see them getting near each other in the foreseeable future. TWoW spoilers

plus, with Arianne being the one who's likely to get to him first that makes Sansa seem even less likely IMO.

 

Tyrion seems possible but I lean away from this for a multitude of reasons the main one being that I don't think it fits as well as Sansa and Jon. 

 

Jon and Sansa makes the most sense to me on paper and I do like the idea that Jon is the hero she thinks doesn't exist. That moment with Slynt seemed so deliberate I think it was the first time Jon/Sansa ever crossed my mind. The moments too when they're imagining their future families, I strongly felt that they were both on the same page. 

 

I'm less convinced that Sansa will be Queen in the North mainly because I think that Rickon is being kept alive so that he can be the Stark at Winterfell. 

[nksarmi]

I almost think GRRM's original outline would have been a better - and completed - read.  Don't get me wrong - he's added a lot of characters that I like, but dang, at the least the books would be done!

[Audreythe2nd]

Original! Jaime was basically Cersei and Jaime put together. But GRRM made them two people instead.

 

I'm actually surprised that more people don't notice that Original!Outline!Tyrion doesn't actually exist in the story we have, and is in actuality an amalgam of current Tyrion and current Jaime more than anything else.

 

Arya might as well be called by a different name for all she resembles her outline counterpart.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[GertrudeDR]

Aw Mya, you're sweet. I never think I make an impression on Westeros and am surprised when people remember me. And I am sooooo glad I checked back here and found this thread. Wish I had done it earlier. It was at Westeros that this came to my attention initially and I loved the threads where we would talk about the Unsullied. Granted, it mostly resembled a petting zoo in that we were all 'how adorable are they?' and we couldn't touch them through the glass, but I still looked forward to it more than I should have.

 

Props on modding because there were so many border cases of 'huh, that's ... remarkably prescient, but not quite right. Are they or aren't they Bookwalkers? Then if you confront them and they aren't, you've just spoiled something pure and ... gah! Seriously, mad props. (but seriously, screw those guys with the necklace spec. That drove me mad in all mediums. Too many people thinking, well, they showed the necklace. so obviously it's not a spoiler anymore. It's totally fine for me to connect the very well spaced out dots for you.)

[Alayne Stone]

I love the Sansa Stark and the 5 Suitors theory that has Sansa ending up with Faegon though!

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/102851-the-tourney-at-ashford-and-sansas-suitors/

 

But I agree, at this juncture in the story it seems unlikely.

[WindyNights]

I almost think GRRM's original outline would have been a better - and completed - read. Don't get me wrong - he's added a lot of characters that I like, but dang, at the least the books would be done!

I don't think it would've been. It seems a lot more straightforward and common than the story we ended up getting.

And I'm enjoying the journey. I don't know why people want the books to be finished already unless they're not enjoying the story anymore and just want to see what happens.

Like I think GRRM is going to need an eight book to finish the series and I'm okay and happy about that if true.

[Mya Stone]

shimpy,

Real question. Have you parsed out which actors read the books from the show?

Gertrude,

Omg that damn necklace, gahhhhhhh. I "spoiled" so many bookwalkers. ;)

[Delta1212]

I'm actually surprised that more people don't notice that Original!Outline!Tyrion doesn't actually exist in the story we have, and is in actuality an amalgam of current Tyrion and current Jaime more than anything else.

Arya might as well be called by a different name for all she resembles her outline counterpart.

Outline!Jaime was renamed Cersei, and GRRM then added a new character named Jaime that stole plot and character elements from the outline of his two siblings.

[Avaleigh]

I'm actually surprised that more people don't notice that Original!Outline!Tyrion doesn't actually exist in the story we have, and is in actuality an amalgam of current Tyrion and current Jaime more than anything else.

 

Arya might as well be called by a different name for all she resembles her outline counterpart.

I feel like some of outline Arya might have been transferred over to Sansa. 

[Triskan]

Maybe I've missed it but have you read the last Dany chapter shimpy ?

 

Oh, and I'm all for you reading the Unsullied thread (or some bits of it), hehehe !

[Audreythe2nd]

I feel like some of outline Arya might have been transferred over to Sansa. 

Hmmm, maybe. I'm not sure though - I feel like Sansa still might go through the whole outline GRRM originally had for her, just not with Joffrey's baby, but someone else's.

 

Outline!Jaime was renamed Cersei, and GRRM then added a new character named Jaime that stole plot and character elements from the outline of his two siblings.

The question is why he did this and for what ultimate purpose? (or... maybe that's just my question, lol)

[ImpinAintEasy]

I don't think it would've been. It seems a lot more straightforward and common than the story we ended up getting.

And I'm enjoying the journey. I don't know why people want the books to be finished already unless they're not enjoying the story anymore and just want to see what happens.

Like I think GRRM is going to need an eight book to finish the series and I'm okay and happy about that if true.

This is going to sound awful, but I have serious doubts that he will finish 7 books, let alone 8. The man is 67 years old and obese. And as he has aged, his writing speed has slowed. So it's not a matter of just wanting to be done with the story. It's a sincere worry that we'll never get a conclusion. With that said, I agree that the series has improved greatly from the original outline. That love triangle.....

[GertrudeDR]

I feel like I might be out of sync with the actual discussion for a bit as I read through the thread.

 

I so very much wish I had been here for the real-time discussion. (my point in the thread is Shimpy finishing book 1). I am disappointed in her dislike for Cat, and I feel it might be grounded in some misconceptions. Or maybe I am the one with misconceptions. I completely understand that 'It should have been you' was an unforgivable thing. I also think that her general treatment of Jon was harmful, but I also find it understandable from her perspective and her understanding of her place in the world. I see Shimpy making the observation that Cat couldn't get over Ned loving someone who wasn't her and taking it out on the kid and that is not how I read it at all. I am wondering if this feeling still stands or has it changed over the next few books? If so, I look forward to seeing it. If not, I would love to discuss it. I also think that Cat really had no choice in how things went down once she decided on the Eyrie and it's not entirely fair to blame the shit-show Lysa orchestrated on Cat.(yes, Cat had some responsibility, but ... whoa, Lysa!)

 

I do love that Shimpy is on the side of SHE WAS 11 with Sansa. Cat and Sansa are not my favorite characters, but I do like them both very much and because they are so polarizing, I have become very protective of them.

[stillshimpy]

Hi Gertrude, welcome.  You've landed three days after I finally summited the Wall for good.  Bye Spitball Wall!  

 

That letter is the craziest thing.  Jon and Arya were the OTP?  Wouldn't have guessed that one.  By...a lot.  

 

 

 

I think a lot of that stuff is still planned, just that he switched the parts up here and there, expanded and adjusted the timeline, and added more players.

 

Uh.  Huh.  Well.  It's possible in that, Dany could still invade.  It's ...yeah, it's not all that possible on a lot of fronts.  Some fronts, yes.  A version of that is still possible.

 

 

 

Seriously, mad props. (but seriously, screw those guys with the necklace spec. That drove me mad in all mediums. Too many people thinking, well, they showed the necklace. so obviously it's not a spoiler anymore. It's totally fine for me to connect the very well spaced out dots for you.)

 

A-friggin'-men.  

 

In other news, I'm sure my husband is really looking forward to how relatively little gibbering with rage I'll be doing in the coming seasons, so there's that.  

 

Going back and doing a re-read for spoiler tags (I will proceed with caution and thank you for that's TWoW heads up) I realized that there were at least two other people in the thread when we started who were also reading for the first time.  ChandraReborn, I hope I didn't accidentally do you an injury with the sheer weight of the number of words I use when three would suffice.  

 

Like there.   I'm sorry, Chandra!  Also, if people are encountering "likes" of mine from six months ago, it isn't that I didn't read your post the first time.  I was actually really nervous when we first started.  No reason.  You guys are awesome, I just....you know...hadn't actually ever flown solo on the whole Unsullied thing.  Sure, even though it was an odd thought, "Okay, people watch us react to this?  Interesting.  Interesting" but we always thought of it as people watching our game night.   So at first it felt a little bit like "okay, everyone is watching me play Scattegories....by myself" because I didn't "know" any of you guys yet, other than Mya, that is.  

 

By the way, reading the letter was interesting because it really made me ponder again the power, and the necessity of editing.  "You must kill your darlings" is something I was discussing with my son earlier.  One of my good friends both here and in real life helped me track down a copy of the original version of The Stand because I wanted my son to read it.  It's a much, much better story than tenth or twentieth anniversary that King got to release, when he was so friggin' famous that his publishers would have published his grocery list if he'd had the urge to share it.  He was a cash cow.  A mad success.   

 

He re-released The Stand in all its original, bloated glory and ....thereby completely ruined his tale.  It's a fucking disaster of a book and it's possible I think that because I'd read the original first and then bought the "special anniversary edition" piece of shit that was re-released (as usual, I have no strong feelings on the matter and would be loath to share them anyway...yup)  ...but I'm pretty sure I'm right because my son knows who Stephen King is.  He's read the Shining, It a couple of others.  His immediate reaction when I told him "Finally, my friend _____ tracked down an original version for you!"  ...and my son told me...he'd never heard of it before, but was looking forward to reading it.  

 

Editing is a friend.  That story outline, or alluded to above is a good, tight tale.  A triology is about as far as a series should stretch before it starts to get bogged down in the "So famous, We'd Publish Your Tissues!" stuff.   I'm very familiar with Gaiman and the "not your bitch!" post.  I a) agree with it b) scold him for using gendered terms in a derogatory sense, dude, seriously c) yeah, but whereas I want Martin to live a full and lovely life.  Whereas I fully support the notion that I didn't sign a contract with him, nor he with me, that doesn't mean he shouldn't allow an editor to do his or her job.   

 

I'm sorry, but there's shit-ton of repetition in Dance.  George Martin needs to quit killing characters, and start killing darlings, because the darlings in that "you must kill your darlings" are words.  He's not my indentured servant, but he's hurting his own tale and that letter proves it, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

 

 

Maybe I've missed it but have you read the last Dany chapter shimpy ?

I genuinely forgot!  I will, I will!  I even have time tomorrow morning.  I'm reading this thread, by the way, not the Unsullied thread.  I can't imagine thinking the things I thought at the beginning of this thread, now from my reader perspective.  

 

I think the true Unsullied threads ...which yeah, I know there's an archive of the start of them somewhere, would be pretty freaking hilarious...except for all the times I argued and argued and argued with a bookwalker and it was only obvious in retrospect (the TWoP thread not here, except for that fucking Affair of the Necklace bullshit). 

Edited February 23, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Andeleisha]

I always wonder how much the lack of editing is the author vs the publishing house. (I totally agree with you that this series suffers from bloat.) From a business perspective, why waste money and resources editing something when you know it will sell regardless? I wonder if that means they don't push as hard on the author as they might have otherwise. 

[Andeleisha]

Also does anyone have those links to the early Unsullied threads that shimpy mentioned? I only joined end of season 3/beginning of season 4.

[stillshimpy]

I do :-)  Don't freak if you get a redirect, this will take you to the way back machine's archive for all of TWoP:  This is the first page of what eventually became known as The Unsullied Thread. 

[WindyNights]

This is going to sound awful, but I have serious doubts that he will finish 7 books, let alone 8. The man is 67 years old and obese. And as he has aged, his writing speed has slowed. So it's not a matter of just wanting to be done with the story. It's a sincere worry that we'll never get a conclusion. With that said, I agree that the series has improved greatly from the original outline. That love triangle.....

Well I expect book 6 to come out this year. I have hope.

So if he proceeds as fast as he usually does he just needs to live another 10 years to pump out book 7 and 8.

Holy crap I'll be older than Catelyn Stark by the time this series is finished.

[Ashara Payne]

Ha! I'm already older than Michelle Fairley. I hope I don't die before he's finished. I pity older fans. I wonder whether Martin would divulge the ending to fans who are terminally ill? I very much doubt it.

[magdalene]

 

it turns out that Tyrion and Dany are my least favorite characters

I don't mind Tyrion that much - other than he has really turned into a self-pitying whiner which is quite tiresome.  But Dany yes, definitely one of my least favorites. I just don't go for the special snowflake, Mary-Sue types and she is the biggest fantasy cliche in the whole series - designed as a fan boys wet dream.

 

I really did not like "Dance" much at all and combine that with the next book being delayed again and the sinking feeling I have had for a long time that Martin will never finish these books - the result is I have become quite meh on ASOIAF.

[WindyNights]

I don't mind Tyrion that much - other than he has really turned into a self-pitying whiner which is quite tiresome. But Dany yes, definitely one of my least favorites. I just don't go for the special snowflake, Mary-Sue types and she is the biggest fantasy cliche in the whole series - designed as a fan boys wet dream.

I really did not like "Dance" much at all and combine that with the next book being delayed again and the sinking feeling I have had for a long time that Martin will never finish these books - the result is I have become quite meh on ASOIAF.

Tyrion has always been a self-pitying whiner.

Daenerys isn't really a Mary Sue type except on the surface.

Most beautiful woman in the world, magic lineage, princess and messiah-esque figure.

But she's not this pure good type. She still crucified people, mass murders an entire class of people at Astapor, has had innocent people tortured before and commits many mistakes.

But yeah Daenerys isn't my favorite. I'm interested in her as a concept though and how she'll evolve.

Contrast that with Stannis, Lady Stoneheart and Jon Snow whose characters I am invested in.

Edited February 23, 2016 by WindyNights

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys isn't really a Mary Sue type except on the surface.

Most beautiful woman in the world, magic lineage, princess and messiah-esque figure.

On the one hand I get how Dany's appearance is about as Mary Sue as it gets but there are a couple of things that come to mind when I consider whether or not it's overkill for me. She spends a good chunk of the second book bald and dirty and by the time we get to ADWD

she's looking like hell and shitting herself

so that isn't the most Mary Sueish description. She also, as GRRM reminds us in every one of her chapters, has small breasts and this isn't necessarily the ideal for your average fanboy. Still, I mostly agree. Sparkly purple eyes, platinum hair, "otherworldly" beauty--if she didn't have a dragon she'd be riding a flying unicorn. 

[Terra Nova]

Even Jon could be considered some sort of Gary Stu: he has a magical pet, even more magical than his siblings' magical pets, he has the ubersword woven with magic, he's a boy Commander, a secret Prince, he has a couple of scars but they only add to his charm... put it this way, he's really a cliche. And yet, he's dour, plain, someone would even call him boring, and at the beginning of AGoT, poisoned by Tyrion the ever-wining, he was coming off as a spoiled brat until the little speech Noye gave him.

 

If anything, it's the show that really cemented the idea that Dany is some supercool girlpower sistah, with her 'badass' lines, her deadpan attitude and her fire immunity.

 

On the Ur-manuscript topic, I would not consider it that insightful on how the story will end: sure, some details like Cat's death and her likely return as an undead have always been there, but this was the very first outline. Have you ever had a look on Tolkien's first conceptions? Strider was supposed to be a Hobbit with wooden feet and a grudge with Mordor, Tol Eressea was England so that Middle Earth was actually some Conan-like mythical age of our world, and elves diminished until the point they became the small faeries that live in flowers and other French-folklore-inspired little thingies.

And yet Tolkien in later years came to detest all of these things, especially the notion that elves are smaller or more delicate than humans, so much that he complained about pictures of Legolas where he appeared feminine. Tolkien retorted that his Elves are taller than most humans and immensely strong and wise - basically, what humans would have been without the original sin. *puff puff* end of the rant (but only for the nonce!)

 

@GertrudeDR

Welcome! And regarding Cat's views, there's Turtle-Paced, a Tumblr user who's currently rewatching the first seasons of GoT with the benefit of hindsight: the result is that from the start the series changed small things in Cat, all of them to the effect of reducing her agency and making her look dumber, especially for the benefit of Tyrion in the cases of his kidnapping and the release of Jaime. I would strongly recommend this commentaries to anyone, since they help explain how subtly twisted the show-viewers' perception of Catelyn ended up being.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

Jon and Arya were the OTP?

 

 Siblings in lurve that turn out to be just cousins, how convenient. When I first heard this I was like OMG GRRMy romance novel/soap opera much?

 

I also really like the 5 Suitors theory for Sansa, Alayne. It seems just like a GRRM thing to do. I don't think it's that unlikely either:

Harry is so doomed it's not even funny and Arianne will be rejected by (F)Ageon because he wants Dany as bride. Dany will flip him off of course and then he could totally go with Sansa.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ambi76

[feverfew]

I always wonder how much the lack of editing is the author vs the publishing house. (I totally agree with you that this series suffers from bloat.) From a business perspective, why waste money and resources editing something when you know it will sell regardless? I wonder if that means they don't push as hard on the author as they might have otherwise. 

 

There is probably some of that thinking going on, but as an editor myself, I promise you, we have enough pride in ourselves to want to do the best possible job. To make the best possible book. The problem is - as always - that if an author as popular as Martin start to feel pressured by his editors ("no, this stuff is not nearly as good as that. Go back and write more") there's three other publishing houses waiting in the wing to offer him more money, more "creative freedom". So it's a balance. One of my authors, a guy I won't mention by name because, hey, work! writes very popular crime novels, translated into several languages. He's also one of the most humble people I've ever met, but he's 1:10.000. Most writers, when they get succesful, do tend to be annoyingly persistent in that every word they write is golden, and as such, can't be removed. Martin is - if you look at his editor's notes and his answers - one of those writers.

 

So to sum up; yes, the CEO of a publishing house just want the book as fast as they can get their grubby hands on it, but the editors, the one who works intimately with both text and author, always* begs for more time, more revisions ;)

 

*in my experience *grins*

[John Potts]

I'm reminded of what Peter Jackson - not a guy exactly famous for producing tightly edited works! - said, "You've got to be prepared to cut you favourite scene if necessary" (he was talking about the scene where he cameos in Return of the King where Aragorn & the army of the dead capture their ships before sailing to Minas Tirith - it's on the extended edition but its inclusion makes his appearance at the battle less of a surprise, as it was in the book). GRRM should take that to heart. Yes, he has a real point that marching an army 1000 miles is not something that can be done in a week and that there's more to ruling than just conquest - but there's also the fact that all foreplay and no performance leads to frustration. Like what exactly is holding back the White Walkers? They're only held back by authorial choice, they don't need to gather resources and watch their supply lines so why aren't THEY moving in on the North?

[Delta1212]

Well I expect book 6 to come out this year. I have hope.

So if he proceeds as fast as he usually does he just needs to live another 10 years to pump out book 7 and 8.

Holy crap I'll be older than Catelyn Stark by the time this series is finished.

Children were born and lived and died all in the time it has taken him to write this much.

[mac123x]

He re-released The Stand in all its original, bloated glory and ....thereby completely ruined his tale.

 

Heh, I only read The Bloated Stand.  It had a forward from King how he got to add back in things that were, in his opinion, unreasonably cut.  As I read the book I can remember thinking to myself, "I assume this entire section was one that was cut -- it was awful."  That book pretty much soured me on ever reading King again.

 

I've probably commented on this before, but you can see the moment J.K. Rowling achieved Immunity from Editing -- Order of the Phoenix is quite bloated and repetitious (Harry's continual mood swings made me rename the book Harry Potter and the Prescription of Lithium).  She appeared to learn the lesson that Editors are Friends not Food, though, because the next book was much tighter and coherent.

[Chris24601]

And GRRM seems to have transferred the Starkcest onto them as well but I don't think I'd be too surprised if Jon ended up with Sansa.

You aren't alone there, for many of the same reasons Avaleigh cited, but also because of the narrative bittersweet that is "Everything you ever wanted in the worst possible way" (both loved the old songs and stories of heroes and princesses and their story could be the most epic of them all when heard a hundred years after the fact and washed of all the real horrors both went through to get their "storybook ending") and because I think it plays into GRRM's endgame and because Sansa's position as a starting and continuing viewpoint character has certain narrative implications, which I'm going to stick under a spoiler tag because it feels a bit off-topic even if Shimpy did ask us what some of our theories were earlier...

Endgame wise I think it cannot be overstated that GRRM is extremely anti-war and it comes through in his descriptions of war's horrors throughout the series. The man believed it so strongly that he performed alternate service as a conscientious objector during Vietnam. Now throw in GRRM's statements that few people are absolute white or black. Coupled with this, his chosen narrative style for the series of one third person limited viewpoint character per chapter makes it very effective for dealing with the struggles of an individual in battle, but more difficult to actually convey a large scale battle with its ebb and flow across a large front.

Short version; I highly doubt that GRRM's magnum opus is going to be resolved with a massive war between Ice and Fire with one side or the Other (pardon the pun) standing victorious. I think the lesson is going to be one of balance between extremes (Ice AND Fire, not Ice OR Fire) and that there's going to be some sort of peace or mystical union of opposites that resolves the conflict. The Others will be revealed to have some discernible motivation (they did live peaceably north of The Wall for thousands of years) making peace possible if war doesn't kill everyone first. Finding a path to peace is something that could be conveyed on the personal scale of the narrative structure far more easily than a massive war (it'd also fit the budget of the TV series far better than multiple huge battle sequences).

To do that I think you're going to need someone a bit impartial... someone neither Ice (the Starks and their northern magic) nor Fire (the Targaryans or Red Priests and their fire magic). In other words, Jon Snow. Presuming the theories are right and he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar then he's in balance. When he comes back from the dead (as near everyone thinks he will) I suspect it will involve both Ice and Fire because he needs to remain in balance.

Which brings me to Sansa. Narratively speaking, she's the only young viewpoint character (i.e. not the doomed parents) from the first book whose possible role in some big mystic endgame isn't all that apparent. Jon is the balance, Arya is becoming a magical assassin (which has the Great Other/Death), Bran is becoming a new Old God, Dany is becoming the Dark Messiah of Fire and Blood, Tyrion is en route to becoming either Dany's conscience or her enabler and Sansa is a teenage girl with good looks and courtly graces.

One of these things is not like the others and there's actually little in the narrative that couldn't have been told via other viewpoint characters (Ned and Arya in book one, Tyrion and later Jaime and Cersei in the later books and the Vale could have been skipped entirely as it was in the show).

So why include her? Because GRRM's has on more than one occasion pointed out certain flaws he perceived in LotR and Aragon marrying Arwen at the end, a virtual stranger to the reader who barely even had lines in the entire book, is one of the more widely regarded ones. So how do you fix something like that in your own work? You follow "Arwen's" story from the very beginning so that when "Aragorn" and "Arwen" finally wed we understand EXACTLY who both are and what they mean to each other.

Which brings me back to the endgame. Its probably going to come down to a choice by Jon between Ice and Fire and him taking a third option that keeps the balance between the two. That probably requires Jon to remain neutral meaning he can't have a bride who favors one or the other. Enter Sansa, a girl whose one connection to Northern magic got killed with a sword forged with fire magic (making her neither ice nor fire since the first book), and who just happens to be a major viewpoint character since the very first book of the series. Coincidence? I think not.

 

Of course, I'm also of the mind that Dany is going to go full-on mad conqueror and in my darkest moments think we might get a Ragnarok scenario where the series ends with Jon and Sansa becoming "King" and "Queen" in the sense that they'll lead the few survivors of humanity into a new age (with Bran watching over humanity as a "New God") once Dany and the Others destroy each other and take most of the existing civilization with it... so take all my theorycrafting for what it is; way too much idle brain time while at work.

[ambi76]

I just don't go for the special snowflake, Mary-Sue types and she is the biggest fantasy cliche in the whole series - designed as a fan boys wet dream.

 

Thing is. She's doomed. That's where the fan boy wet dream ends. There is no way she "wins" this. Her dragons are crucial for the war. But she'll meet Drogo again after giving birth to a living child*. That's my Dany story and I'm sticking to it (until GRRM writes otherwise).

 

*just don't let it be Jon's. Hells I would take it being Jorah's for shits and giggles at this point over that.

 

PS: I don't think she will go all crazy, Chris. But she will be intensly unpopular in Westeros because (F)Aegon will have stolen all her thunder. And those two will clash. (F)Aegon will "win", but probably soon after need to be replaced by Jon. That's my guess.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ambi76

[Avaleigh]

If Dany has a child I can't see it being anyone but Jon's. The next best chance is maybe Faegon or Daario but neither of those make much sense to me. Tyrion would make more sense than either of those two and that still doesn't feel right for numerous reasons. 

[Terra Nova]

I do not agree with Chris views under spoiler tag, but they're not without reasons and very well explained and so kudos for the comment.

 

Argh, I'm just waiting for Shimpy to read Dany's chapter, so that we can go on full speculation mode ^^'

Edited February 23, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

I'm reminded of what Peter Jackson - not a guy exactly famous for producing tightly edited works! - said, "You've got to be prepared to cut you favourite scene if necessary" (he was talking about the scene where he cameos in Return of the King where Aragorn & the army of the dead capture their ships before sailing to Minas Tirith - it's on the extended edition but its inclusion makes his appearance at the battle less of a surprise, as it was in the book). GRRM should take that to heart. Yes, he has a real point that marching an army 1000 miles is not something that can be done in a week and that there's more to ruling than just conquest - but there's also the fact that all foreplay and no performance leads to frustration. Like what exactly is holding back the White Walkers? They're only held back by authorial choice, they don't need to gather resources and watch their supply lines so why aren't THEY moving in on the North?

This is one of the easiest explanations. They're waiting for Winter and maybe for the Wall to come down.

[WindyNights]

You aren't alone there, for many of the same reasons Avaleigh cited, but also because of the narrative bittersweet that is "Everything you ever wanted in the worst possible way" (both loved the old songs and stories of heroes and princesses and their story could be the most epic of them all when heard a hundred years after the fact and washed of all the real horrors both went through to get their "storybook ending") and because I think it plays into GRRM's endgame and because Sansa's position as a starting and continuing viewpoint character has certain narrative implications, which I'm going to stick under a spoiler tag because it feels a bit off-topic even if Shimpy did ask us what some of our theories were earlier...

Endgame wise I think it cannot be overstated that GRRM is extremely anti-war and it comes through in his descriptions of war's horrors throughout the series. The man believed it so strongly that he performed alternate service as a conscientious objector during Vietnam. Now throw in GRRM's statements that few people are absolute white or black. Coupled with this, his chosen narrative style for the series of one third person limited viewpoint character per chapter makes it very effective for dealing with the struggles of an individual in battle, but more difficult to actually convey a large scale battle with its ebb and flow across a large front.

Short version; I highly doubt that GRRM's magnum opus is going to be resolved with a massive war between Ice and Fire with one side or the Other (pardon the pun) standing victorious. I think the lesson is going to be one of balance between extremes (Ice AND Fire, not Ice OR Fire) and that there's going to be some sort of peace or mystical union of opposites that resolves the conflict. The Others will be revealed to have some discernible motivation (they did live peaceably north of The Wall for thousands of years) making peace possible if war doesn't kill everyone first. Finding a path to peace is something that could be conveyed on the personal scale of the narrative structure far more easily than a massive war (it'd also fit the budget of the TV series far better than multiple huge battle sequences).

To do that I think you're going to need someone a bit impartial... someone neither Ice (the Starks and their northern magic) nor Fire (the Targaryans or Red Priests and their fire magic). In other words, Jon Snow. Presuming the theories are right and he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar then he's in balance. When he comes back from the dead (as near everyone thinks he will) I suspect it will involve both Ice and Fire because he needs to remain in balance.

Which brings me to Sansa. Narratively speaking, she's the only young viewpoint character (i.e. not the doomed parents) from the first book whose possible role in some big mystic endgame isn't all that apparent. Jon is the balance, Arya is becoming a magical assassin (which has the Great Other/Death), Bran is becoming a new Old God, Dany is becoming the Dark Messiah of Fire and Blood, Tyrion is en route to becoming either Dany's conscience or her enabler and Sansa is a teenage girl with good looks and courtly graces.

One of these things is not like the others and there's actually little in the narrative that couldn't have been told via other viewpoint characters (Ned and Arya in book one, Tyrion and later Jaime and Cersei in the later books and the Vale could have been skipped entirely as it was in the show).

So why include her? Because GRRM's has on more than one occasion pointed out certain flaws he perceived in LotR and Aragon marrying Arwen at the end, a virtual stranger to the reader who barely even had lines in the entire book, is one of the more widely regarded ones. So how do you fix something like that in your own work? You follow "Arwen's" story from the very beginning so that when "Aragorn" and "Arwen" finally wed we understand EXACTLY who both are and what they mean to each other.

Which brings me back to the endgame. Its probably going to come down to a choice by Jon between Ice and Fire and him taking a third option that keeps the balance between the two. That probably requires Jon to remain neutral meaning he can't have a bride who favors one or the other. Enter Sansa, a girl whose one connection to Northern magic got killed with a sword forged with fire magic (making her neither ice nor fire since the first book), and who just happens to be a major viewpoint character since the very first book of the series. Coincidence? I think not.

Of course, I'm also of the mind that Dany is going to go full-on mad conqueror and in my darkest moments think we might get a Ragnarok scenario where the series ends with Jon and Sansa becoming "King" and "Queen" in the sense that they'll lead the few survivors of humanity into a new age (with Bran watching over humanity as a "New God") once Dany and the Others destroy each other and take most of the existing civilization with it... so take all my theorycrafting for what it is; way too much idle brain time while at work.

GRRM is anti-unjustified war.

GRRM says he would've fought in WW II because he views that as a justified war but not in WW I which he views as an unnecessary war.

Something like fighting the Others is closer to a WW II type situation than a WW I situation.

And his Ur text says that they want to wipe out all life. Hard to reason with people like that. But I acknowledge that he might have changed that.

I agree with everything else you said for the most part.