Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Eek I couldn't hide my enthusiasm with the title edit! :)

 

Snerk.  Yeah, you were definitely using the gleeful font there, Mya ;-)  

 

 

Well, there was certainly a sun that rose in the West and set in the East.

 

Oh....the Sun's son?  Quentyn?  But that whole "blah blah blah...womb! Quicken! Readers can never remember that part wasn't in the show!"  was about Drogo being returned to Dany and he sort of ....uh....was part of a human sacrifice to hatch her eggs...?  Right? 

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Snerk.  Yeah, you were definitely using the gleeful font there, Mya ;-)  

 

 

 

Oh....the Sun's son?  Quentyn?  But that whole "blah blah blah...womb! Quicken! Readers can never remember that part wasn't in the show!"  was about Drogo being returned to Dany and he sort of ....uh....was part of a human sacrifice to hatch her eggs...?  Right?

You know me too well.

And yes, if you take her prophecy apart, you can find things to fit it PRETTY well. ;)

[Avaleigh]

Shimpy, I'm curious to know how you would rank the books now that you're done. 

[glowbug]

I hadn't realized the show prophecy was different from the book prophecy. If Quentyn is the sun rising in the west and setting in the east I wonder what or who is going to satisfy the prophecy in the show since Quentyn doesn't exist and so far no one from the Martell family is headed east. Maybe Trystane goes there when he finds out Myrcella is dead?

[Alayne Stone]

Prophesy? Show? Follow up on? Hahahahaha.

 

There's something else about the prophesy that happens that seems to suggest that certain things are changing for Dany, but you need to read the chapter.

 

And again, the end plot points between book and show are the same (Dany comes upon a Khalasar) but ... the journey is quite different. Plus ... Dany has her own "mount" next to her in the book when the Khalasar arrives. In the show she's quite alone. That's significant. And her mount being more dangerous than any horse could possibly be, I'm no where near as concerned for her in the books where the Dothraki are concerned as I might be with the show where she is, once again, a damsel needing to be rescued either by Jorah and Dario or Deux Ex Drogon. Not sure I should discuss it any further than that until you have read it in its entirety though.

 

And yaaasssss. I've been waiting for you to get to the epilogue! Things are going to be quite different in King's Landing going forward and now you have a very good sense of just how dangerous Varys is, which I think has been kind of overshadowed by Littlefinger (in the books anyway) up to this point. I think the only significance about having the children there is the fact that they are Varys' "little birds." Nothing more, nothing less. Other than the fact that it is really creepy.

 

Do you plan to read the unreleased Winds chapters?

Edited February 21, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, glowbug, it's how we used to bust bookwalkers on TWoP....in the show, there's no mention of anything that would relate to fertility.  So pretty much anyone that ended up bringing up that "Dany is infertile so...." thing was waving a big ol' yeah....that last part of that line you just quoted? Small problem with it.  Comes from a place other than the Land of Show.  That is from the Land of Page.  RUN AWAY! QUICK, BACK IN THE FISH!! (<----figure this crowd will get that one). 

 

 

 

Shimpy, I'm curious to know how you would rank the books now that you're done.

 

Of course :-) 

I think I liked a Storm of Swords the best out of all of them.  Just some very different things happened in them.  I really started to get a sense of the scope of the story of the Wildlings....who I had HATED on the show and actually that was the start of my biggest conversion from show to book:  I ended up loving the stuff with the North.    Probably didn't hurt that the Ironborn were not highly featured, so there was that too.   Plus, that freaking ending was a gobsmacker.  Also, it was interesting getting to know Jaime Lannister as a character, which surprised me.  

 

Then probably a Clash of Kings, because Jon's POV became more interesting.  I really enjoyed the world-building aspect in that book...it didn't feel as labored and overdone as it felt to me in Dance.  I was really pretty captivated by that.  

 

Although I enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire: Game of Thrones , it was the least interesting to me as a reading experience, because except for a few significant things, it was a faithful retelling, for the most part.   I think I would have loved it the best if I'd started out as a reader, vs. a watcher though, because things were surprising in it.  It was a very different sort of fantasy experience, but I think I'd rank it next.  

 

Then it really is a toss up between Dance and Feast for me in terms of bringing up the rear.  I think some of Martin's go-to phrasing drove me a little nuts.  I think I personally liked Feast more, because it turns out that Tyrion and Dany are my least favorite characters, but Dance ended in an intriguing fashion.  Feast had the Dorne plot though and I really, really liked the Dorne plot.  

Weirdly, for all that I ranked it last, Dance had my favorite moment in any of the books with Manderly and once it got past the overly gruesome stuff with Theon, I really enjoyed his story.  

 

In terms of POVs....anything Ironborn other than Asha tended to really bring up the year.  

 

I have to hit the sack for the night, more tomorrow, but I can say that Feast was where I just started to get really, really frustrated with all the things the show left out.   Pretty much everything (other than the Ironborn) that the show left out just fascinated me.  

 

And the biggest surprise had to do with finding both Melisandre and Stannis interesting....and then it was really difficult to actually accept that I could understand what happened and why when it came to Jon in Dance.   

 

ETA:  Of the many, many "Why Show, WHY?"  things the one that just really sticks out as the most egregious thing is how many fascinating characters and complicated plots they dropped in order to bring us endless Theon torture and a lot of focus on fucking Ramsay.  The show's interest in Ramsay just baffles me.  They cut out so much interesting, magical, fantastical, complexity so they could have....the guy from the Silence of the Lambs, basically.  

 

ETA2:  Also, again, thank you all.  You made this a lot of fun for me.  I don't know if I actually would have read the books in other circumstances.  I was so upset by season five and I was actually freaked out by the concept that people could possibly like these stories.  I completely understand their popularity now in a way I never would have if I hadn't done this and I don't think I would have kept going after GoT because...it was soooo much like the show that I would have assumed the other books were too.  

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I still think the first season of Game of Thrones is one of the best book to screen adaptations I've ever seen.

[Alayne Stone]

This was really fun to do with you as well, I have to say.

 

I came into it all about halfway through your reading but it was just really awesome to see all your insights and genuine surprises to moments that happen in the books but not the show, or moments that happen but happen differently. I'm a little sad that it's kind of sort of over actually lol.

[glowbug]

Great breakdown, Shimpy. I agree with your order except that I would switch AGoT and ACoK. Even though I saw the first two seasons on the show first I still really enjoyed AGoT. After ASoS it probably had my favorite storylines, which is probably why the similarities to the show didn't bother me. It's the only book where Dany was interesting (she has some interesting scenes in future books but her storylines as a whole bored me after the first book).

Have you decided whether or not you're going to watch the sixth season of the show? I'm really hoping you do since I'd love to hear your thoughts on it but completely understand if you don't after season 5.

Delta, I agree. The first season was well written and the casting (aside from a few major missteps ::cough cough::Renly::cough cough::) was some of the best I've ever seen. Even when the actors didn't completely fit the character descriptions it usually didn't matter because they were so good in their respective roles. Some of them actually improved their characters like Jorah Mormont, who looks nothing like his book counterpart.

Edited February 21, 2016 by glowbug

[Brn2bwild]

I'm sorry, I just couldn't face that many pages of Dany's story season five

because it's not like I don't know what happens already there and sure enough, it was what the show essentially portrayed

 

It is pretty long-winded, but there's one part I really liked that I wish had been kept on the show.  (Spoilers for old time sake) 

That vision of Viserys was great, and I kept hoping for that scene in the show because it would have meant a cameo by Harry Lloyd.

[ambi76]

The show's interest in Ramsay just baffles me.

 

They needed a new big villain after Joff's demise (they don't much care for Cersei as villain), and he seems to be one of the showmakers favorite villain, is all I can make of it (plus they really like the actor).

Now with Euron showing up next seasons he might want to watch his back though.

 

it turns out that Tyrion and Dany are my least favorite characters

 

Hahaha. Oh harsh, shimpy, but I can understand. Never quite got the hang of Dany* myself (and I'm no hater, just meh) and Tyrion, well, in another post you mentioned that he for once said something that didn't make you want him getting eaten by a dragon again, and I was like, nah, he can still get eaten by a dragon for all I care and he is in my top five/six characters.

 

* found this last chapter in Dance of her quite intriguing though.

I love that dream/vision stuff and her talk with Dream!Viserys is great.

 

That spoiler is the exact same thing Brn2bwild said. ;-)

Edited February 21, 2016 by ambi76

[Terra Nova]

Congratulations Shimpy! You climbed the Wall and now you can snog with your sssshpecial wilding in the golden light of what on show seemed the Land of Always Summer!

 

(I am one of those who quoted Barry the actor objecting to his untimely death, but I always tried to leave the door open for a scenario along the lines of 'Barry tries to take charge after Dany leaves, and is backstabbed like a n00b', so maybe he could have died his last chapter of the book ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

 

Also, since you seem pretty involved with the Pink Letter, I may suggest to read one preview chapter from Winds in particular - I would like to know what the other book-readers think about this -, if you want, obviously ^^ Some of the theories won't look as born out of an overdose of mushrooms.

 

But first Dany's chapter, it's even trippier than the one in the House of Undying!

 

ETA: what Brn2bwild says under spoiler, that snippet was the best part of the chapter for me.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

Shimpy, do you remember what Mirri Maz Duur's taunt was?

 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

 

Sun rises in the west and sets in the east = Quentin

Seas go dry = tagged since Shimpy didn't read that part of the chapter yet: 

Dany notices that the grasses in the Dothraki Sea are drying up due to the impending winter

Mountains blow in the wind like leaves = pyramids of Meereen that were damaged by Rhaegal and Viserion

When your womb quickens again =

Dany has an excessive period.  She wonders if it's been 2-3 months since her last one, so it was possibly a miscarriage due to malnutrition / poisoning from the berries, meaning she's once again fertile

 

Basically, Mirri Maz Duur's curse has been almost fulfilled. 

 

I actually said "holy SHIT" when someone pointed this out to me.  I don't know if GRRM had it plotted out from the beginning when he wrote MMD's taunt in GoT or if he plot-welded it later, but that was stunning.

 

ETA:  i loved the epilogue, though I knew Kevan was a dead man as soon as he became the POV.  It also had one section that screamed for an editor -- Kevan reinterated the story of his father's mistress.  I'm pretty sure we had that verbatim from another POV character, and Kevan didn't add any insight to the tale.

 

Varys referring to Aegon like he was the real deal seems to weigh towards him NOT being a fake, but a careful parsing of Varys's words show that everything he said could equally apply to a pretender.  He describes how Aegon was taught how to be a good ruler.  I don't think he ever actually refers to him actually being the real Aegon -- that's the name he's used (other than Young Griff) all his life so that's how Varys refers to him.

Edited February 21, 2016 by mac123x

[Terra Nova]

FAegon is the answer to Varys' riddle about power: it is where men believe it to be. If everyone believes Aegon is real, does the truth really matter? The boy believes it, his mentor believes it, his life has been shaped with the assumption he is real...

 

As for the 'lying to a dying man', well, Varys clearly believes in nurture over nature, so in his mind the boy is 'Aegon'. And most importantly, taking a leaf out of Littlefinger's book, he said to Sansa that they have to pretend even when they are alone, in their heart. Otherwise one day they'll let something slip out of carelessness. So that's my take for Varys too. And of course, since it's the epilogue - and a cliffhanger, since every prologue and epilogue POV dies - Martin wanted to leave everything ambiguous until the next book, at least.

[mac123x]

Another thing about Dany headed back to the Dothraki:  Quaithe says (among other uselessly cryptic things) To go forward, you must go back..  Dany is gong back to the Dothraki.  Hopefully to get an army.  My fervent desire (which won't be fulfilled) is:

 

Khal Jhoqo:  "I am Khal!  You belong back with all the other former Khaleesi in the Dosh Khaleen"

Dany:  "Drogon?"

Drogon:  [fire][chomp]

Dany:  "I am Daenerys Stormborn, Mother of Dragons etc.  You are now my khalisar.  We march on Meereen"

Dothraki riders:  ".... okay then"

 

Knowing GRRM, that'll take 6 chapters and numerous feasts dining on food that sounds repulsive.

[Terra Nova]

Max, first (not for Shimpy)

she has to go to Vaes Dothrak, in Qarth she saw the Dosh Kahleen bowing before her, probably after being proclaimed the Stallion that Mounts the World

. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Triskan]

Warning, this is mostly talking from the latest chapter of Dany !

 

Okay, I'll catch up with the rest of the thread after the post, but I hope this hasnt been already said, but my theory for the prophecy is that it fulfilled  sun in the east, mountains flying, blablabla... somehow, I think it all happened there, but it's not really "Drogo" that's back, but "Drogon", in the sense that now he respects her (perhaps will even go as really obey her, who knows). The first step to being a kick-ass dragon-rider.

 

She's finally looking back, embracing some stuff and I sincerly think Martin tried to change the character in quite many fashions in that final chapter, and her "sun and stars" returning in the form of an obedient dragon fulfills for me the prophecy. So I must say, even though I've never been the giggest fan of hers, I'm quite curious to see what's in store for her ahead !

[WindyNights]

I sincerely think that kid's name is actually Aegon so Varys wasn't lying in the literal fashion. It's just not the Aegon that Kevan's thinking of.

@shimpy I got the link ready for the TWOW chapters for when you finish that Daenerys chapter.

Also funnily enough GRRM's favorite character is Tyrion with Daenerys coming in second tied with Arya.

Although someone told me about the Daenerys thing, I have to re-check whether that's legit.

GRRM's rankings for Tyrion and Arya are legit.

[WSmith84]

Honestly, I really don't want the Dothraki to play much of a part in the future story. Particularly not in military matters, since the Dothraki, in reality, would be about as effective as, well, armourless men on horseback with just swords, whips and bows. I suspect that Dany in the next book will bring about an end to slavery on the continent of Essos, regardless of how unrealistic it is, because having the slavers win might be a bridge too far for even Martin.

 

There are theories that perhaps someone else is in the room or listening when Varys kills Kevan. Or he could be just following LF's mantra of never letting the mask slip, even when alone.

[Haleth]

Congrats on being fully sullied, Shimpy!  I think now you can see why we are waiting not so patiently for the next book.  Now your watch begins.

 

ETA:  Of the many, many "Why Show, WHY?"  things the one that just really sticks out as the most egregious thing is how many fascinating characters and complicated plots they dropped in order to bring us endless Theon torture and a lot of focus on fucking Ramsay.  The show's interest in Ramsay just baffles me.  They cut out so much interesting, magical, fantastical, complexity so they could have....the guy from the Silence of the Lambs, basically.

 

And boobs.

FAegon is the answer to Varys' riddle about power: it is where men believe it to be. If everyone believes Aegon is real, does the truth really matter? The boy believes it, his mentor believes it, his life has been shaped with the assumption he is real...

 

I completely agree.  Who he may or may not be is irrelevant if he can convince enough nobles that he would be a good ruler.  But... since the show left him out. :/

 

Kevan's murder caught me by surprise, especially at the hands of Varys.  It was always Littlefinger presented as the agent of chaos with Varys trying to keep some semblance of peace.  To find out duplicity was his GoT was a shock and delight (because I'm Team FAegon all the way).  I did feel sorry for Kevan though, since he was guileless, had no agenda of his own.  Not so sorry about Pycell though.

[Terra Nova]

Feverfew, now come and post again :D

[stillshimpy]

That's true, there was something about pretending-in-your-own-heart that would help explain the Aegon stuff.   

 

So in what will hopefully be the last instance of this for our beleaguered Mya Stone:  I told her on FB why I just couldn't face a Dany chapter.  It was a god-awful, terrible week when it came to lost dogs again including two that were killed on purpose.  One having been shot twice for the great sin of being lost and wandering onto this dude's property.  I guess he thought shooting her once was not showing a high enough level of commitment or something. That was a case where tracking dogs had been brought in and her trail just ended, but with no body.  So there's a slim chance that some decent human being actually gathered up a twice shot dog and got her to help.  

 

Anyway, I was in even less of a mood for Martin of Clan Turkey Flogging than I normally am and really, if y'all could have seen my face when the tiny bit that I chose to read included Equine Flambé I'm sure it was hilarious.   I will go back and read the chapter though since it sounds like Martin did something other than spin his wheels some more in that one.  Also?  Other than Horse Aflame, two ways as a dining experience?  Dany almost immediately thought of Daario.   I sort of hope they trebuchet'd his butt over that wall because that's the emptiest emotional connection I think I've ever seen.  

 

I agree with your order except that I would switch AGoT and ACoK. Even though I saw the first two seasons on the show first I still really enjoyed AGoT.

 

I can completely understand and agree with that assessment and think I might have felt the same had I not read the books after the show nearly broke my darned brain. 

 

(I am one of those who quoted Barry the actor objecting to his untimely death, but I always tried to leave the door open for a scenario along the lines of 'Barry tries to take charge after Dany leaves, and is backstabbed like a n00b', so maybe he could have died his last chapter of the book ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

 

It was absolutely no big deal, at all.  No one hinted unduly or anything, it was just one of those things that was part of our conversations and I made the assumption.  Honestly, I barely got a chance to become particularly attached to Selmy's character in Dance anyway.  I genuinely was by the end, but by then I really was just working from the assumption that "Yeah, he'll be fine.  This is not his book to die."   He's a good man, to whom honor means a great deal.  I kind of already know where that tends to lead in these books.   

 

I do think I will end up reading the advance WoW chapters, if I could please.  If there as a release date at hand for the book, I might not but from what I'm gathering it's gong to be late this year.  

 

There are theories that perhaps someone else is in the room or listening when Varys kills Kevan.

 

There are a couple of things he says that just struck me as so odd though.  Something like, "For the Realm.  For the Children."   Okay, so eventually it might be good for the realm, because I don't think Varys is incorrect:  I think that there's more to ruling and governance than being born to it and believing it a right, but rather a duty to the people under your care. 

 

So much talk about the Evil Cat (who I'm guessing is supposed to be Bloodraven) and the Raven that was there to announce Winter -- which was one dramatic flourish and a touch over-indulgence that I just liked -- I liked that they had these giant ravens sent out to announce "It's Winter!"  when people in King's Landing are ass in deep in snow.   Captain Obvious: The Raven.  

 

I got why Varys needed to have Kevan killed in a way that would cause the most confusion.  So just crossbowing the poor man to the great beyond would look too much like "Tyrion Lannister did this!!"   ....so stabbing for confusion made sense.  Varys seemed mad as could be in that moment, in that mad = insane way. 

 

Of course, The Children -- who Bran is hanging out with under the Weirwoods and who are said to be in the Ravens too, made me wonder what he meant by "For the Children."   I already asked Mya about that and initially she said that maybe it was for Elia and Rhaegar's children, but Kevan Lannister had nothing to do with that one.  If it was to support Aegon -- whoever he may be and truly, I just can't buy into the "he's really Aegon Targaryen, smuggled to safety" until I'm absolutely forced to and would prefer it not happen, it's too cutesy  -- I would assume "Child" would be more appropriate.  

 

It's interesting that Dany, Tyrion and Arya are Martin's favorite characters....on Arya I get it....and I guess I understand now what happened in Dance:  If Tyrion and Dany are his favorite characters, that means he loves writing them....which explains why he was way over-indulgent of his own preferences because on both characters he was almost insanely repetitive in Dance.  They each had about four, maybe five, arguably six wheel-spinning-going-nowhere repeat-the-exact-same-material chapters in Dance.  

 

Tyrion getting drunk, being self-loathing, getting smashed in the face and endlessly wondering "Where do whores go?"    Dany's Daario idiocy which what an empty connection that was and it's not like Drogo was ever any better, Martin has an appalling habit of having Dany fall for character who are basically Haircuts.  Romance Novel Decorating Haircuts who it is impossible to believe have internal lives of their own.  They are props.   Then blah blah Tokar, blah blah Floppy Ears, blah blah the Turkey Horror Picture Show and it was very much on repeat, I felt.  

 

I am positive there is someone out there who passionately feels those are the best chapters Martin ever wrote and more power to them, because they weren't anywhere near as dismayed as I was ever time the name popped up.   But I went into Dance having Tyrion as one of my least favorite characters, so by the end of Dance I was about ready to hurl a grenade into my kindle every time his name rolled around at the top of a chapter.  

 

I do hope there will be some new POVs in the coming books.  As much as I'm complaining about repetition, I do like the stories and love certain aspects of them.   

 

I was really caught by the Pink Letter.  

 

In the first couple of seasons of the show, I just couldn't begin to grasp what everyone's fascination with Jon Snow was, because as I've mentioned Kit Harrington looks a hell of a lot like he could be a very close blood relative of mine, so yeah, since I'm not prone to a case of Lannister Swoons, it was a case of "Yeah, sure the actor's cute....but man, what a tedious characterization" (in those first two seasons).   

 

Well that's how I have come to feel about Dany.  She's an adolescent girl with fun pets.  She gets bored and squirmy doing the things rulers do.  She obsesses about a boy that anyone else in their right minds would be like "Oh sure, to have a fling with and do a bar crawl with somewhere around your sophomore year of college?   Absolutely!  And probably a good idea to wear a full body condom, by the way."  She "nibbles" things in a way that makes me want to throw chairs through windows just to break up the monotony.  That's one of Martin's go-tos also.  Apparently women never simply eat, god forbid they wolf something down, they do not gobble (even turkeys, oh the humanity!)...nope...lot of nibbling of honey covered, whatnot stuff delicacies.  

 

It's interesting that she's one of his favorite characters because to me she feels like an author who started out an experiment:  "I bet I can write a person of the opposite gender realistically.  I'll make that person a very far cry from who I am and....go!"  and whereas it's not a bad effort, it's not actually all that good.  Far more than Sansa ever was to me, Dany is almost painfully girly.   

 

I can't rightfully accuse Martin of having her obsess about clothes like she just hopped over from Sex and the City and it's reductive "women love shoes!! And clothes!"  ways because there's a lot of attention to fashions in all of the characters.  It's just turned up to astronomical levels with Dany's character.   

 

Like almost anyone who likes to read, I've encountered historical fiction in my life before, usually appallingly prone to romance novel fluff and Dany's character reminded me of one of a book I almost violently hated -- not because it's so incredibly bad, but because of the absolute bullshit disservice it did to the real history, that is actually fascinating just as it stands, with no need for embellishment Philippa Gregory, was The Other Boleyn Girl.  

 

It was like Philippa Gregory had decided to tell the tale of Cleopatra's lesser known sister and set her loose amongst the pyramids, where she'd bath and scent herself and think about some hunky guy while marveling at statues of Horace or something. 

[Haleth]

Of course, The Children -- who Bran is hanging out with under the Weirwoods and who are said to be in the Ravens too, made me wonder what he meant by "For the Children."   I already asked Mya about that and initially she said that maybe it was for Elia and Rhaegar's children, but Kevan Lannister had nothing to do with that one.  If it was to support Aegon -- whoever he may be and truly, I just can't buy into the "he's really Aegon Targaryen, smuggled to safety" until I'm absolutely forced to and would prefer it not happen, it's too cutesy  -- I would assume "Child" would be more appropriate

 

.I believe he meant Rhaegar's children, but also Viserys and Dany who had to live in exile.  Kevan and anyone named Lannister was guilty by association with Tywin.

[stillshimpy]

.I believe he meant Rhaegar's children, but also Viserys and Dany who had to live in exile.  Kevan and anyone named Lannister was guilty by association with Tywin.

 

I'm sorry, but that fails to work for me on a lot of levels.  One being that Varys is no way framing this as something he is doing as a form of justice or revenge.  Varys has spectacularly uninterested in either throughout, although he normally doesn't seem to kill willy nilly, he's the guy who convinced Ned Stark to confess to treason, which was another "we'll just keep things chaotic until my own plan can be enacted" and particularly since he's just stated that the reason he thinks Aegon (whoever he may really be) is fit to rule specifically because he can mend nets, etc.  (you know, all the code for "gets the common man") ....it then makes no sense to me that his last words to Kevan have anything to do with "I'm taking revenge for the killing of the children....one of whom I'm trying to sell as having been saved, so....weird use of the plural there, am I right? Yeah well, just go with it! It's either a tell that Aegon is Faegon, or the children are not the Targaryen children who were murdered."  

 

It's not for The Children of the realm because good gods, is all this shit going to screw the living hell out of an entire generations worth of children up....in fact, good luck dealing with the resulting desensitization and resulting loss of empathy and what that means for your societal structure, yo.....   

 

It's just a weird one so I have to believe that Bloodraven, Bran, Varys, the Citadel and their burning candles of all seeingness.  Which man, could Martin have had a bigger prop to that plot in the backround or what?  Only if he'd stated it was the size of a baby elephant could he have had The Figurative Representation of The Citadel more clearly spelled out...what with it being in the room and all and flapping around Kevan's head....literally beating him in the head.  

It's hard to believe all of these folks are working on the same side, but that's what I took "For the Children" to mean and having a giant ass Raven beat Kevan in the head with its wings didn't exactly dissuade me from that interpretation. 

[mac123x]

It's not for The Children of the realm because good gods, is all this shit going to screw the living hell out of an entire generations worth of children up....in fact, good luck dealing with the resulting desensitization and resulting loss of empathy and what that means for your societal structure, yo....

 

"I bear you no ill will.  This was not done from malice.  It was for the realm.  For the children."  Later Varys says:  "Aegon knows that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

 

I'm pretty sure Varys is referring to children in the abstract, the future generations.  He believes that Aegon on the throne will bring peace and unity to the kingdom and will be a wise ruler, better than Tommen could ever be, which is beneficial in the long run to everyone. 

 

Now whether he is right is a different question, because as you stated, another war will be even more destructive to their society for generations.

[stillshimpy]

By the way, one thing I've been looking forward to is hearing what everyone's theories on various things are, because you guys have had YEARS to think about this stuff and in some instances, I'm still working from Hours or Days.  

 

There is also one other thing about Martin having Dany as one of his favorite characters that I should acknowledge as a positive thing:  I do like that he has such an interest in a female character who has to constantly persevere  mainly by her own wits and against rather substantial odds.  Now that she's packing actually dangerous dragon as backup, that's slightly less of a focus but sometimes I get so caught up in being irked by something, I forget to acknowledge (outside of the confines of my head) that an author is doing something really cool, noteworthy, praiseworthy. 

 

Particularly in this genre, it is noteworthy that two of Martin's favorite characters are very young women.  I find it interesting that Tyrion is increasingly recognizable as a villain.  

 

One more thing about the epilogue is that one of the most positive things to come out of Dance was potentially undone in it and that also felt a little tail-chasing.  I'm tired of Cersei's internalized misogyny manifesting itself and controlling so much of the story.  I'm a bit weary of how threatened she is by Margaery Tyrell and Cersei's constant scheming to get her killed, shunted off, shamed and every other horror that has included multiple sacrifices of other human being who seem simply ...if not good...inoffensive is a bit tedious because of how little variation there is from that theme.  That the curdled cream always rises to the top.  

 

So essentially pulling a reset of "Just funning, Cersei will be Queen Dowager and Regent again.  Somehow no one will just fucking kill her because she's got a freaking creepy as hell Zombie for a pet now, that apparently everyone has figured out is just a massive fucking Undead Thing" was difficult to read. 

 

It's okay to sustain character growth.  To let characters be changed and have that change be something that informs everything about them going forward.  Character growth and change is awesome stuff, even when it isn't positive.  

 

I can never quite warm up to Theon's journey in this, because the show tortured the viewers with it too much, but that was an awesome, intriguing and fitting character trajectory that carries with it permanent change.  I actually found myself hoping that Theon wasn't dead and want to read more of what happens with him. 

 

That's a bloody a miracle, I think we can all agree:  Run out, buy a lottery ticket.  The weird odd gods are smiling on us all.  

 

So setting up the chess board so that Cersei can once again just try to get Margaery Tyrell killed some more (glad to read Loras is alive and ....not dead...if not well) and obsess about Maggy the Frog's prophecy without any real obstructions or changes -- yeah, Kevan noting that she had changed, I didn't note that at all, but I hope that it wasn't just an act, while suspecting that it is -- that wasn't a positive.  

 

It leads me to my next: Well, I didn't think this would happen, statement though:  I am now officially pulling for Big Bird to win that day.  

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Varys is referring to children in the abstract, the future generations.  He believes that Aegon on the throne will bring peace and unity to the kingdom and will be a wise ruler, better than Tommen could ever be, which is beneficial in the long run to everyone.

 

It really is possible he was talking about "for the generations to come, for posterity" and it's also possible that I was too focused on "okay, why the separate sentence?  What the fuck, Martin? "  ....and please know, I am fully aware there has never been a greater menace with a comma than yours truly over here, so when I'm noting "What the fuck is with that punctuation structure?"  it's....let's go with unusual.  

 

Also, Aegon/Faegon/Pudding and Pie  has a finite lifespan, so "the children" of the realm are children now and they are getting hosed and screwed beyond the telling of it.  Admittedly, Connington is on Westerosi soil. Varys could be thinking, "I just need four more months of chaos to get this shit done for the children of the realm, no matter how oddly the author punctuated a single thought."  

 

And if if wasn't for that giant ass raven, I'd be more inclined to just put it down to that.  However, I know what happened to the freaking children of the forest.   Again, none of that means I'm right, you guys have literally had five years to mull this over.  

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Yeah I also think he means "For the children" in the abstract sense. Whenever someone's talking about the Children of the Forest, it's always capitalized. Furthermore, Varys hates magic.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah I also think he means "For the children" in the abstract sense. Whenever someone's talking about the Children of the Forest, it's always capitalized. Furthermore, Varys hates magic.

 

That's certainly a note that the Show hit in a way as to leave no doubt, but the book hasn't, at all and in the chapters before that spelled out that the Valyrians and Targaryens always used so much spell-craft in their structures, that I can't quite agree with that statement.  

 

Varys hates whoever cut him, if that's what happened to him, but the very fact that he supports Targaryens as rulers would suggest: Dude's okay with some forms of magic, because literally Selmy had that thought two chapters ahead of the epilogue.  Also, Varys "little birds" and his ability to know things, doesn't really sync up with the "Oh no, never any magic"  because sure, the assumption is "There is always someone nearby who can overhear, the walls have ears!"   ....but Varys network of spies just being that gifted at always being tucked away, out of sight, and there being nothing super natural at play there seems unlikely to me.  

 

You guys joked about Littlefinger's jetpack and I'm just assuming that you have made jokes about Varys Invisibility cloak, because it doesn't technically seem possible that he really is so in the know because of a bunch of super-trained-urchins that no one can manage to see.  

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

By the way, one thing I've been looking forward to is hearing what everyone's theories on various things are, because you guys have had YEARS to think about this stuff and in some instances, I'm still working from Hours or Days.

There is also one other thing about Martin having Dany as one of his favorite characters that I should acknowledge as a positive thing: I do like that he has such an interest in a female character who has to constantly persevere mainly by her own wits and against rather substantial odds. Now that she's packing actually dangerous dragon as backup, that's slightly less of a focus but sometimes I get so caught up in being irked by something, I forget to acknowledge (outside of the confines of my head) that an author is doing something really cool, noteworthy, praiseworthy.

Particularly in this genre, it is noteworthy that two of Martin's favorite characters are very young women. I find it interesting that Tyrion is increasingly recognizable as a villain.

One more thing about the epilogue is that one of the most positive things to come out of Dance was potentially undone in it and that also felt a little tail-chasing. I'm tired of Cersei's internalized misogyny manifesting itself and controlling so much of the story. I'm a bit weary of how threatened she is by Margaery Tyrell and Cersei's constant scheming to get her killed, shunted off, shamed and every other horror that has included multiple sacrifices of other human being who seem simply ...if not good...inoffensive is a bit tedious because of how little variation there is from that theme. That the curdled cream always rises to the top.

So essentially pulling a reset of "Just funning, Cersei will be Queen Dowager and Regent again. Somehow no one will just fucking kill her because she's got a freaking creepy as hell Zombie for a pet now, that apparently everyone has figured out is just a massive fucking Undead Thing" was difficult to read.

It's okay to sustain character growth. To let characters be changed and have that change be something that informs everything about them going forward. Character growth and change is awesome stuff, even when it isn't positive.

I can never quite warm up to Theon's journey in this, because the show tortured the viewers with it too much, but that was an awesome, intriguing and fitting character trajectory that carries with it permanent change. I actually found myself hoping that Theon wasn't dead and want to read more of what happens with him.

That's a bloody a miracle, I think we can all agree: Run out, buy a lottery ticket. The weird odd gods are smiling on us all.

So setting up the chess board so that Cersei can once again just try to get Margaery Tyrell killed some more (glad to read Loras is alive and ....not dead...if not well) and obsess about Maggy the Frog's prophecy without any real obstructions or changes -- yeah, Kevan noting that she had changed, I didn't note that at all, but I hope that it wasn't just an act, while suspecting that it is -- that wasn't a positive.

It leads me to my next: Well, I didn't think this would happen, statement though: I am now officially pulling for Big Bird to win that day.

It really is possible he was talking about "for the generations to come, for posterity" and it's also possible that I was too focused on "okay, why the separate sentence? What the fuck, Martin? " ....and please know, I am fully aware there has never been a greater menace with a comma than yours truly over here, so when I'm noting "What the fuck is with that punctuation structure?" it's....let's go with unusual.

Also, Aegon/Faegon/Pudding and Pie has a finite lifespan, so "the children" of the realm are children now and they are getting hosed and screwed beyond the telling of it. Admittedly, Connington is on Westerosi soil. Varys could be thinking, "I just need four more months of chaos to get this shit done for the children of the realm, no matter how oddly the author punctuated a single thought."

And if if wasn't for that giant ass raven, I'd be more inclined to just put it down to that. However, I know what happened to the freaking children of the forest. Again, none of that means I'm right, you guys have literally had five years to mull this over.

Will Cersei grab power again though directly? Seems hard to believe anyone will take orders from her especially since she's under trial.

My theory is that as the next closest relationship that's not Cersei that Lancel will rule as Regent. Conflicts of heart is GRRM's bread and butter.

You're then left in an interesting scenario where Lancel has to choose between his zealous faith and his addictive love. He's also a developed character that the High Septon and Cersei can struggle over.

Edited February 21, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

One thing most people just assumed at the end of the epilogue is that Randyll Tarly is a secret Targ supporter. As JonCon said, he still has friends in the Reach and they always had a penchant for supporting insurgent Targs. And he acts pretty dismissively about Aegon, 'if it's him'.

 

So in my opinion whatever is going to happen in KL will be disrupted by the news of the successful invasion, so that even if Cersei and Marg pass the trial unscathed, there won't be the chance for them to resume their pettiness, with much bigger things going around.

 

Now, for the Winds chapters:

I would propose to go in 'publishing' order, so they should be Arianne I, Theon, the bundle Tyrion/Barry, Mercy, Alayne... am I correct?

 

ETA: I remember Martin saying in one particular interview that Tyrion is his favorite - big deal, even rocks know that - and then added, 'I like Daenerys', so maybe it wasn't a real list; his wife's favorite is Arya and she made him promise he won't kill her (oh oh oh...); but then other times he said that he has a soft spot for the Starks, so I would say he's particularly fond of the POVs of the first book, but I guess a writer ends up loving all his characters; surely Tyrion is a compelling character AND still a horrible person ^^

Edited February 21, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

That's certainly a note that the Show hit in a way as to leave no doubt, but the book hasn't, at all and in the chapters before that spelled out that the Valyrians and Targaryens always used so much spell-craft in their structures, that I can't quite agree with that statement.

Varys hates whoever cut him, if that's what happened to him, but the very fact that he supports Targaryens as rulers would suggest: Dude's okay with some forms of magic, because literally Selmy had that thought two chapters ahead of the epilogue. Also, Varys "little birds" and his ability to know things, doesn't really sync up with the "Oh no, never any magic" because sure, the assumption is "There is always someone nearby who can overhear, the walls have ears!" ....but Varys network of spies just being that gifted at always being tucked away, out of sight, and there being nothing super natural at play there seems unlikely to me.

You guys joked about Littlefinger's jetpack and I'm just assuming that you have made jokes about Varys Invisibility cloak, because it doesn't technically seem possible that he really is so in the know because of a bunch of super-trained-urchins that no one can manage to see.

Maybe Varys makes a distinction between magical bloodline and one who practices magic.

And to be fair, Varys puts these urchins inside the walls of the Red Keep.

And he has many more of them scattered throughout Westeros and King's Landing. I would actually say he has a lot more children under his command than we think.

There was a pretty cool implication in the first Tyrion chapter in this book with the washerwoman that Tyrion strikes up conversation in Westerosi but doesn't reply. Tyrion thinks it's because she can't understand him but it's more likely she's one of Varys' former little birds and has no tongue to talk with.

[WindyNights]

One thing most people just assumed at the end of the epilogue is that Randyll Tarly is a secret Targ supporter. As JonCon said, he still has friends in the Reach and they always had a penchant for supporting insurgent Targs. And he acts pretty dismissively about Aegon, 'if it's him'.

So in my opinion whatever is going to happen in KL will be disrupted by the news of the successful invasion, so that even if Cersei and Marg pass the trial unscathed, there won't be the chance for them to resume their pettiness, with much bigger things going around.

Now, for the Winds chapters:

I would propose to go in 'publishing' order, so they should be Arianne I, Theon, the bundle Tyrion/Barry, Mercy, Alayne... am I correct?

ETA: I remember Martin saying in one particular interview that Tyrion is his favorite - big deal, even rocks know that - and then added, 'I like Daenerys', so maybe it wasn't a real list; his wife's favorite is Arya and she made him promise he won't kill her (oh oh oh...); but then other times he said that he has a soft spot for the Starks, so I would say he's particularly fond of the POVs of the first book, but I guess a writer ends up loving all his characters; surely Tyrion is a compelling character AND still a horrible person ^^

Arya is for sure his second favorite and his wife's favorite. Daenerys is debatably tied with Arya.

Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

[Andeleisha]

So one of my favorite things to speculate about is the identity of the Faceless Men. Now, this might be entering crack theory territory, but to me, this was the thing that convinced me that Martin is telling a much, much deeper story than I thought. This thing has layers upon layers. 

 

I don't believe we talked about this paragraph during your read, shipmy, which is from AFFC: (Correct me if this has already been covered though!) 

 

The waif and kindly man were not the only servants of the Many-Faced God. From time to time others would visit the House of Black and White. The fat fellow had fierce black eyes, a hook nose, and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth. The stern face never smiled; his eyes were pale, his lips full and dark. The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely. Those three came most often, but there were others: the squinter, the lordling, the starved man. One time the fat fellow and the squinter came together.

 

A lot of these people sound awfully familiar, don't they? The thing I find most intriguing is the man with the stern face and pale eyes. That sounds like it could be Roose Bolton, and the idea of him having ties to the Faceless men just blows my mind!

 

I think most people believe that the fat fellow is Illyrio, which could maybe make sense? Although geeze that would mean Illyrio has a finger in a ton of secret plots. Not clear if Varys is in on it too, although him having ties to the Faceless Men would explain a lot about his disguises in the Red Keep. I'd prefer to think the fat fellow is Marwyn (the Maester who taught Mirri Maz Duur and Qyburn, the one who Sam met who then immediately set off to find Dany). I just have a hard time seeing Varys in alliance with a guild that uses magic, although maybe it's just Illyrio and Varys doesn't know. I admit the physical description doesn't *quite* fit -- Marwyn is described as having a broken nose, not a hook nose, and I think the sourleaf he chews would turn his teeth red, not yellow, but still! The fierce eyes would fit Marwyn better than Illyrio, because Marwyn is described as looking more like a soldier than a Maester. 

 

The handsome man with the different colored beard -- I think Daario is the only character who is described as dying his beard more than once? I guess maybe the Faceless Men could have planted him there to keep an eye on Dany but that DEFINITELY in crack theory territory. 

 

The Lordling I think is Garlan Tyrell, but that's based on absolutely nothing, so. 

 

Later in Dance, (ch 64, the Ugly Girl) Arya serves at a council of Faceless Men, where they talk about assassinating someone -- they go around the room saying whether or not they know someone. I've wondered if the people know in common is supposed to be clue to help us figure out their identities but I've got nothing. There's another man at this gathering who is described as having pox marks on his face. Again, character who is described as having pock marks on his face? Bowen Marsh. Maybe Jon's assassination was a plot of the Faceless Men all along. 

 

Of course, Bowen Marsh the Faceless Man shouldn't be killing Jon, since he knows him. Maybe the Faceless Men trade faces with each other to infiltrate and then kill their targets, which means that the characters their playing aren't real people at all, just roles they play. Maybe Daario isn't Daario at all, but a succession of new and different Faceless Men spying on Dany. Paints Dany's affair with him in a whole new light. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Andeleisha

[John Potts]

The Varys reveal actually took me by surprise since I thought he was sincere about caring about "The People" (I guess he still could be, but taking a longer view). I actually felt sorry for Kevan - one of the few characters who seemed to actually be both vaguely competent & somewhat well intentioned, so I should of realised he'd meet a similar fate to Eddard.

 

Dany's ending was infuriating. Seriously, I just waded through how many thousand pages for her to end up back where she started!? OK, she has a dragon (which is scarcely insignificant) but it just seemed like an excuse to keep her out of play for longer. Because that's what every reader was calling for - more wheel spinning. It would be slightly more tolerable if I felt that she was actually learning on the way, but she spent far too much time indulging herself (again, understandable given her age & upbringing) and not enough time actually learning.

 

Incidentally, now we're at the end of all the published stuff, I would strongly recommend reading the "Wild Mass Guessing" pages on TVTropes. A lot of the theories are silly, most of them will prove false, but many of them are a real hoot (can't guarantee no spoilers for unpublished chapters, but there's no guarantee they'll be IN Winds of Winter).

[stillshimpy]

The thing all of those descriptions make me wonder, Andaleisha, isn't "Hey, is that Daario?"  because unless all of these folks have ready access to a Stargate, how in the world do they nip in and out like that? But rather, is it possible that the Faceless Men don't just assume the faces of the people they have stored elsewhere, but can kill or impersonate other people?  Like when Jaquen changed his face in front of Arya, clearly he wasn't nipping back to the House for a face change, it was something he could just do at will.   

 

So maybe the more skilled among them can simply go forth and be whoever they wish to be, as the need arises?  Seems like that would become awfully difficult to write around, but I didn't think "Wow, that's Roose!"  as much as "Huh, I wonder if that's the guy who is being sent out to kill and then become Roose?  How the hell would that ever work though??"  

 

Or all of the descriptions being sort of close, but not exact to any of the characters was intentional thing on Martin's part, just to give the audience those fun layers?  

 

Maybe Varys makes a distinction between magical bloodline and one who practices magic.

 

Then he picks and chooses what forms of magic he hates and therefore doesn't automatically hate all magic, is what I'm taking away from that.  If Valyerian steel is spellbound and wrapped and whatnot, then someone used spells.  If the Red Keep was built by Targaryens that loved a magical structure, then magic was involved.  

 

Maybe Varys hates poseurs.   Pretenders.  People who would summon lesser demons, or (to borrow a phrase from another series)  and misuse magical power for petty gains?  If he was cut by a sorcerer, what was it to gain?  That kind of thing.   That Varys makes a distinction between uses of magic, rather than hating magic.  Kind of like Jon and the use of sorcery, Varys just respects the whole "Sword with know hilt, no way to hold it without being cut"....maybe he has faith that only certain people, magical people, are fit to wield magic?  

 

I don't know what it is, but demonstrably, Varys cannot quite truly hate magic when he's all "goooooooo Targs!" about it. 

 

And to be fair, Varys puts these urchins inside the walls of the Red Keep.

 

But that's precisely the part of it that strains credulity that there is nothing magical at play.  So he has an army of urchins, tiny enough to be stuffed into the walls, with really keen hearing and an almost incredible ability to recall key details.....that he manages to train for this purpose....but still not have it be so obvious to all around him that that is what he's doing?   

 

I'm just saying, I don't quite buy that as a possible, literal explanation for some of the shit that goes down in this story.  Varys clearly has children who work for him, but  there are people in Ravens, and Cats and ....yeah, I'm sorry, I've just assumed for a while now that Varys has some way of finding wargs, or actually has some way of communicating with actual birds. 

[Alayne Stone]

He could, for all we know. We didn't learn the extent of his "little birds" as children until ADwD.

 

What really gets me is the fact that Bloodraven could presumably be in every single bird in Westeros at any given time. And any time I come upon a Sam or Bran chapter that has the flock of crows following them about, I always find myself asking "Is he in just one bird? Has he skinchanged multiple birds?" Imagine what Bloodraven must have been like as the Master of Whispers in King's Landing.

 

I've only read two of the TWOW chapters that have been released, though I am familiar enough with their plots. So I'm excited to read them all with you. It'll be something new for me.

[mac123x]

She "nibbles" things in a way that makes me want to throw chairs through windows just to break up the monotony.  That's one of Martin's go-tos also.  Apparently women never simply eat, god forbid they wolf something down, they do not gobble (even turkeys, oh the humanity!)...nope...lot of nibbling of honey covered, whatnot stuff delicacies.

 

Right up there with "my nuncle" for aggravating turns of phrase.  At one point he even has her nibbling an olive.  An olive!  It's the size of ... an olive!  Just pop the thing in your mouth and chew. 

 

Sansa nibbles a lot too.  I guess it's to contrast their lady-like eating habits vs. illyrio the gourmand who can pop a whole chicken in his mouth.  Well, ok, a lark, bones and all.

 

I don't know what it is, but demonstrably, Varys cannot quite truly hate magic when he's all "goooooooo Targs!" about it.

 

To be fair, the Targaryens of Westeros didn't use magic to control their dragons.  They put eggs in the cradles with newborn babies and raised the dragons alongside the children to acclimate them to each other.  They were trained animals to the Targs.  Specifically I don't think they used dragon horns -- otherwise Euron's Dragonbinder wouldn't be such a big deal.  There would be others in storage in the  Red Keep, and people would be familiar with them from semi-recent history.

[stillshimpy]

Didn't Aerys use Wildfire though, that turned out to have a magical element to it?  Aren't the Valeryian steel swords referred to as being wrought with spells?  Aren't the structures of King's Landing, built by the Targaryens -- who were Valyerians, the same ones that Selmy talked about using magic in their actual architecture -- who used magicians in the actual making of buildings?  When we talk about the children being the walls of the Red Keep, wouldn't that be a building constructed in that manner?  

 

That's yet another "Oh, is THAT how that works for the many, many pathways that Varys seems to have throughout the castle and again, keen hearing aside, I've lived in brick houses most of my life.  Stone muffles sound like crazy and it's not like there are heating vents for these kids of his to be crouching under.   So maybe I'm just wrong, which always exists as a possibility in this and all things, but I have assumed that there is something supernatural at play with both Littlefinger and Varys abilities to know shit they simply shouldn't be able to know.  

 

Everyone knows the "A Wizard Did It" trope as being something fantasy stories can fall back on, but in fantasy stories "A Wizard Did It" is an actual explanation of that reality that isn't any more outrageous than "Computer: Earl Grey, Hot *pfffffffzzzzzzt. Tea complete with cup."  because it's part of that reality.  It's only breaking a world's rules if it's been stated as being outside of the rules and this world includes magic and shit-ton of spell forged structures, knives, swords, etc.  

 

 

 

At one point he even has her nibbling an olive.  An olive!  It's the size of ... an olive!  Just pop the thing in your mouth and chew.

 

You are clearly my people, mac, as that is precisely the moment that made me think about throwing things.  It was the use of a feminine word, associated with delicacy, for the sake of it.  Just. Eat. It. Whole.  Jesus Christ Almighty, there is nothing inherently bad about women eating.  We eat.  We scarf things.  We lustily tear into things.  When hungry enough, we can practically unhinge our jaws and encompass entire foodstuffs.  

 

It bugs me specifically because we still live in a world that has trouble with the notion that it isn't gross for women to eat.  We eat.  CRUNCH.   We are not mice, we are not birds and nibbling isn't inherently feminine.  It's mouselike.  

 

I might have really been actively angered by that.  

 

Makes me want to stuff, or slurp something lustily or eat something with great gusto and attendant lip-smacking, while wearing a fucking tiara if the notion strikes me.  

 

Irked me, it did.  ETA:  And oddly enough, it irked me even more in that very last chapter, when he has Dany tearing off hunks of half-raw horse meat and eating with Drogon.  I get that she's supposed to be starving and that it's an almost animalistic thing, but if anything that further underlined the whole "clearly she's supposed to be near death levels of starving, or she'd nibble something instead"....and it was sort of good to see horse heart eating Dany back in the house after she nibbled a date at one point.  
 

Edited February 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

[netlyon2]

Interestingly, I'd never interpreted Dany's nibbling as being ladylike. Sansa, yes, but for Danaerys, I saw it as a sign of her being too worried or distracted to really eat. Just offering a different take on it; I have no idea if one is more valid than the other.

[Terra Nova]

It may also be meant as a contrast to her people starving in Meereen and outside before the blody flux effectively wiped out all the refugees: in the meantime she's atop her pyramid mincing iced fruit and honeyed lamb and other delicacies like, dunno... turkey? ;)

[WindyNights]

Didn't Aerys use Wildfire though, that turned out to have a magical element to it? Aren't the Valeryian steel swords referred to as being wrought with spells? Aren't the structures of King's Landing, built by the Targaryens -- who were Valyerians, the same ones that Selmy talked about using magic in their actual architecture -- who used magicians in the actual making of buildings? When we talk about the children being the walls of the Red Keep, wouldn't that be a building constructed in that manner?

That's yet another "Oh, is THAT how that works for the many, many pathways that Varys seems to have throughout the castle and again, keen hearing aside, I've lived in brick houses most of my life. Stone muffles sound like crazy and it's not like there are heating vents for these kids of his to be crouching under. So maybe I'm just wrong, which always exists as a possibility in this and all things, but I have assumed that there is something supernatural at play with both Littlefinger and Varys abilities to know shit they simply shouldn't be able to know.

Everyone knows the "A Wizard Did It" trope as being something fantasy stories can fall back on, but in fantasy stories "A Wizard Did It" is an actual explanation of that reality that isn't any more outrageous than "Computer: Earl Grey, Hot *pfffffffzzzzzzt. Tea complete with cup." because it's part of that reality. It's only breaking a world's rules if it's been stated as being outside of the rules and this world includes magic and shit-ton of spell forged structures, knives, swords, etc.

You are clearly my people, mac, as that is precisely the moment that made me think about throwing things. It was the use of a feminine word, associated with delicacy, for the sake of it. Just. Eat. It. Whole. Jesus Christ Almighty, there is nothing inherently bad about women eating. We eat. We scarf things. We lustily tear into things. When hungry enough, we can practically unhinge our jaws and encompass entire foodstuffs.

It bugs me specifically because we still live in a world that has trouble with the notion that it isn't gross for women to eat. We eat. CRUNCH. We are not mice, we are not birds and nibbling isn't inherently feminine. It's mouselike.

I might have really been actively angered by that.

Makes me want to stuff, or slurp something lustily or eat something with great gusto and attendant lip-smacking, while wearing a fucking tiara if the notion strikes me.

Irked me, it did. ETA: And oddly enough, it irked me even more in that very last chapter, when he has Dany tearing off hunks of half-raw horse meat and eating with Drogon. I get that she's supposed to be starving and that it's an almost animalistic thing, but if anything that further underlined the whole "clearly she's supposed to be near death levels of starving, or she'd nibble something instead"....and it was sort of good to see horse heart eating Dany back in the house after she nibbled a date at one point.

Well actually unlike many of the big castles in Westeros, King's Landing wasn't actually built using magic even Valyrian magic. Aegon the Conqueror built it when he landed on Westeros through mundane means.

It's mentioned that Valyrian spells were lost at the Doom which was 114 years ago and before Aegon or even his father was born.

Wielding a Valyrian sword isn't the same as practicing magic, I suppose. Like I don't think we can say Joffrey practiced magic.

Also I think this is supposed to be a very revealing moment of Varys';

"My lord, you once asked me how it was that I was cut."

"I recall," said Tyrion. "You did not want to talk of it."

"Nor do I, but . . . " This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow. "I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing.

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

"The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead."

[feverfew]

Thank you, Terra Nova :) I've been reading along, and it was really enlightening for me to have this self-imposed ban on answering "back", especially because I had to re-examine my knee-jerk reactions to some posts, and it made for some interesting introspectives on my part :) I'll still maintain that Stannis' arc in the show worked well for me, despite the season five spoiler

burning of Shireen which I ff'ed, because I just can't with that shit

, but people's passioned defence of the books here really made me want to read them again. I've been quite vocal about disliking Feast and Dance, but I think I'll try the boiled leather one before Winds is out, and see if it'll make a difference.

 

I think my main problem with those two (an especially Dance, since neither Jon, Dany or Tyrion rank high on my "favourite character"-list) first of all came from utter disappointment: I read the first three in 2000 and the wait combined with in-my-eyes lesser books, made me feel...I don't know? Betrayed, in a way. I used to work in a book store, and I've hand-sold hundreds of copies of GoT, CoK and SoS. And having loyal customers come back and tell me they didn't like Feast, was like having my integrity as a reader questioned. I don't know. I think I took it way too personal. Need to check my privilege and Martin's not my bitch and all that. But sometimes it difficult to distinguish those feelings from honest-to-God criticism. That's why this thread has been such a great journey for me - to recognize that you can have issues (like the quote underneath here from Shimpy, which I do believe is valid) with the books and still love them.

 

 

It's interesting that Dany, Tyrion and Arya are Martin's favorite characters....on Arya I get it....and I guess I understand now what happened in Dance:  If Tyrion and Dany are his favorite characters, that means he loves writing them....which explains why he was way over-indulgent of his own preferences because on both characters he was almost insanely repetitive in Dance.  They each had about four, maybe five, arguably six wheel-spinning-going-nowhere repeat-the-exact-same-material chapters in Dance.  

 

Tyrion getting drunk, being self-loathing, getting smashed in the face and endlessly wondering "Where do whores go?"    Dany's Daario idiocy which what an empty connection that was and it's not like Drogo was ever any better, Martin has an appalling habit of having Dany fall for character who are basically Haircuts.  Romance Novel Decorating Haircuts who it is impossible to believe have internal lives of their own.  They are props.   Then blah blah Tokar, blah blah Floppy Ears, blah blah the Turkey Horror Picture Show and it was very much on repeat, I felt.  

 

I am positive there is someone out there who passionately feels those are the best chapters Martin ever wrote and more power to them, because they weren't anywhere near as dismayed as I was ever time the name popped up.   But I went into Dance having Tyrion as one of my least favorite characters, so by the end of Dance I was about ready to hurl a grenade into my kindle every time his name rolled around at the top of a chapter.  

 

[...]

 

Like almost anyone who likes to read, I've encountered historical fiction in my life before, usually appallingly prone to romance novel fluff and Dany's character reminded me of one of a book I almost violently hated -- not because it's so incredibly bad, but because of the absolute bullshit disservice it did to the real history, that is actually fascinating just as it stands, with no need for embellishment Philippa Gregory, was The Other Boleyn Girl.  

 

It was like Philippa Gregory had decided to tell the tale of Cleopatra's lesser known sister and set her loose amongst the pyramids, where she'd bath and scent herself and think about some hunky guy while marveling at statues of Horace or something. 

 

I have never hated a book like I did The Other Boleyn Sister. I finished it, because I am a finisher of books, and the afterwords was actually worse than any of the drivel she put into the novel. I threw the book in the garbage when I was done, so I don't have the exact quote, but it was something like "this is a historical novel building on well-known facts from renouned historians-blah-blah-blah-bullshit" which to this day makes me so angry I can barely see. Sorry. I'm a great admirer of reformist-Anne Boleyn.

 

I've only read two of the TWOW chapters that have been released, though I am familiar enough with their plots. So I'm excited to read them all with you. It'll be something new for me.

 

It'll be new for me too. I haven't read any of the chapters released from Winds, but I want to, now. You guys have managed to get me interested in the books again!

Edited February 21, 2016 by feverfew

[Mya Stone]

feverfew, I have been muddling my way through the boiled leather version of Feast and Dance (in between school, that is), and I'm here to tell you it has made ALL the difference in the world to me. Thematically speaking, these books are linked, and following the guide has helped retain the narrative flow so much that I'm not as annoyed with the books as I was when I first read them.

 

Oh, and welcome back! :)

[feverfew]

feverfew, I have been muddling my way through the boiled leather version of Feast and Dance (in between school, that is), and I'm here to tell you it has made ALL the difference in the world to me. Thematically speaking, these books are linked, and following the guide has helped retain the narrative flow so much that I'm not as annoyed with the books as I was when I first read them.

 

Oh, and welcome back! :)

 

Thanks :) I'll go back in the thread and see if I can't find the link to the "right" version (there were several, right?)

[WindyNights]

I still have yet to read the Boiled leather version but I liked both these books.

Weirdly enough ADWD is my favorite book to re-read along with ASOS.

The most common criticism and the one I'm all on board for that stopped this book from being as well loved as the others is that its conclusion got moved to the beginning of the next book.

If I had seen the Battle of Meereen and the Battle of Winterfell, I wouldn't have felt like the book was blue balling me.

But we ended up getting a hundred cliff hangers.

Side note: I really do think that Cersei's Walk of Shame should've been in AFFC as her book conclusion.

[Alayne Stone]

Funny story, I just finished rereading AFFC about a week ago and definitely had a "wait ... the walk of shame isn't until Dance?"

 

And it's my third time reading this series. ;)

 

I've been putting off reading some of the released chapters for the sake of having new things to go to, but I'm definitely looking forward to reading the ones I haven't brand spankin' new with some of you.

[Ashara Payne]

I'm a bit reluctant to give recommendations for wider info available on the Internet, because there is just so much of the stuff, but if you get fed up with reading and want to listen instead, there are many interesting podcasts available. I think I've found most of them, at least all with obvious-sounding titles, but one I found recently is by the authors of the tumblr blogs GOTGifsandmusings and theculturalvacuum. They have one called 'fanwankers' and one called 'Unabashed Book Snobbery'. The latter is all post-Season 5 and is basically the two of them criticizing the show and discussing how it differs from the books. I find it easy to listen to and very funny.

For in-depth detail, History of Westeros is pretty good, although they have plenty of TWOIAF spoilers and they seem to rush, I sometimes struggle to take in everything they say. Radio Westeros is quite entertaining, too. There are others but they aren't perfect (some have several people on and one is too quiet etc, or they talk over each other). Some are just utter rubbish.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Ashara Payne

[WSmith84]

Small point: the Red Keep was started by Aegon the Conqueror, but finished by his son Maegor the Cruel. Who threw a huge party/feast for all of the builders, architects, masons etc. who worked on the place and had them all murdered, so no one but him would know the secrets of its tunnels and passageways. Charming fellow.

The Unabashed book snobbery was great. I found that, the Rant & Rave threads on westeros.org and the Carols (an awards thing like the Oscars for season 5) were the best things about season 5 of the show.

[nksarmi]

Yea shimpy finished! My SO is currently reading book 2 and I am giddy waiting for him to get to unCat in book 3.

 

Anyway, I am 100% Team Aegon and I don't care one lick if he's fake.  I tried - ever so much - to figure out a way season five spoiler

that Trystane could be Aegon on the show because I WANT that plot!

.

 

Maybe the tide will turn for me with Dany.  I liked her a lot for three books, but she lost me with the Meereen plot and her treatment of Quentyn did her no favors in my eyes.  I want to like her again though - or at least find her interesting.  So I'm crossing my fingers for her in season six/ book six.

 

Oh - interesting sidenote - my SO finished book one and immediately surmised that she has the makings of a great villain.  This never even occurred to me until I read the Jon vs Dany theories out there.  Maybe there is something to it.

 

I used to love Tyrion, but he loses me in book five.  I am still interested in him though.

 

I must admit, for me - the whole series hinges on what happens next for Jon.

[Alayne Stone]

I loved their Unabashed Book Snobbery. It always makes me laugh when I read them (they break down every single major plot point in season 5 and just rip them to shreds). I haven't listened to the podcasts though.