Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[nksarmi]

I was just impressed with how diplomatic Jamie ended up being.  Beyond my personal feelings of the importance of Dorne supporting women rulers - I think Dorne can be summed up as intrigue and the best damn game-players in the books.  Jamie's journey is all about "what skills do I have if I can't be a warrior."  So if season five had still focused on his diplomacy while highlighting the intrigue of Dorne from the books - I would have let all the plot changes and character cuts go.  But they utterly failed to do even that.  Add to that the fact that book Jamie and show Jamie are in radically different places when it comes to Cersei and you just can't help but wonder how they are gong to get this story back on track for whatever GRRM has planned next.  These are the moments when the show really hurts - when they twist characters around like pretzels to take them back where they need to be without the development GRRM gave them.  But oh well, ce la vie and all that. :)

[Lady S.]

San-San fans are really weird. Like I get that Sansa is attracted to him but Sandor comes out and says he was trying to rape Sansa. Not exactly someone that I want to put with her.

If you think that's weird, you should see the Stannis/Sansa shipping. (You're welcome, everyone, I know you're all glad to have that image in your heads.)

 

I was just impressed with how diplomatic Jamie ended up being.  Beyond my personal feelings of the importance of Dorne supporting women rulers - I think Dorne can be summed up as intrigue and the best damn game-players in the books.  Jamie's journey is all about "what skills do I have if I can't be a warrior."  So if season five had still focused on his diplomacy while highlighting the intrigue of Dorne from the books - I would have let all the plot changes and character cuts go.  But they utterly failed to do even that.  Add to that the fact that book Jamie and show Jamie are in radically different places when it comes to Cersei and you just can't help but wonder how they are gong to get this story back on track for whatever GRRM has planned next.  These are the moments when the show really hurts - when they twist characters around like pretzels to take them back where they need to be without the development GRRM gave them.  But oh well, ce la vie and all that. :)

I agree with everything except the bolded ;), Doran has some goals but his only real accomplishment so far is preventing his hothead relatives from starting a war too soon. House Martell is one I doubt will come out ahead when it's all over.

Quentyn's fried, and if Ari hitches herself to Aegon, Dorne will be on the losing side, because no way that kid sits the Throne for good.

 

Feast Jaime proved he could be a Tywin-worthy heir as a leader and politician, he's not an idiot, he just wants different things in life. Show Jaime is not really any more careful even without his sword hand to back up his recklessness. And actual unresolved issues he may have regarding the Martells (meaning DreamRhaegar guilting him about failing to protect Elia and the kids) were never even touched on the show.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

I have next to nothing to say about the concept of people shipping Sandor and Sansa other than, I suppose that beats the terrifying notion that someone out there ships her with Petyr.  So there's that! 

 

Okay, I will pay extra attention today when I finish.  Thanks for telling me that, because I generally don't care for Sam's chapters too much and have been trying to gird up my loins like I'm preparing for a visit to the dentist, but I did atmospheric stuff. 

 

Here's the thing, ambi, I'm kind of in the same boat.  I'm not too much of a Dany or Jon fan and Tyrion goes either way for me.  When he's busy doing things, he's fascinating.  When he's busy with anything sexual, or regarding women, he's a bit tedious.  So I'm a little worried about Dance in terms of finding it engaging. 

 

However, I think it's an opportunity to hopefully become more engaged with Dany and Jon.  Book Jon has just been a better character than I was expecting.  

 

 

 

Finally, what's all this talk of the books being grim and alarming Shimpy?

 

Heh.  You know, I've been consistently and repeatedly say it's the show, not the books that I find alarming and grim.  This is somehow repeatedly being read as my saying that about the books.  

 

So I shall this now, which clear up the mater, I feel certain:  Boy, the books are way dark.  Like, darkity dark.  Dark with an inky black intent.  Oh woe, woe I say! From my screwed up serotonin levels I appeal to you, Marin, have you not even a 10 watt bulb upon your person to shed some life into this tale of woe?  Meet in the catacombs! Oh happy dagger! 

 

That should do it.   Just apply the same reverse interpreter and you'll doubtless see: "Tis the tv series we call Show of which I speak.  Much and more, with typos aplenty, split-infinitives and dangling whatnots. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Ops, no, wording failure on my part I suppose ^^'

I meant that as 'stop saying that the books are that grim, it's not true and you guys are alarming Shimpy for Dance' instead of 'Oh Shimpy, why do you keep saying the books are so grim?'

 

Apart from the increased darkness and general despair, the Tv show has some sort of underlying mockery for the viewers everytime something bad happens to good people: I can clearly picture Oberyn's head getting squashed, voices crying all around the globe, and the showrunners cackling maniacally in their sofas:

 

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8cfce525eaf34bdd38003022586a3457/tumblr_mgdmhmri2t1rkms0ho1_500.gif

 

(luv u Mark <3)

 

I've never felt the same in the books, never suspected the author was having a laugh at my expenses. Even before reading how Martin left the Red Wedding chapter for last while writing Storm, knowing he would have been crushed once he wrote it.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

When I made the comment about hearing the books were grim, I should have noted this was long before the show started or Dance was published. Rumors of the show made me finally take a chance on the books despite the warnings. Since I knew what to expect I didn't find them that bad. (Eventually the good guys will prevail. Martin isn't going to turn the genre that far upside down and with 2 books to go he can't resolve all the conflicts yet.) I don't know how the Unsullied can take it though.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I think Brienne's last couple of chapters in Feast are every bit as dark as anything the show has done, except for(season 5 spoiler)

burning Shireen.

 I also think

the Winterfell stuff with Ramsey and Jeyne

is much worse than in the show too. I think a lot of it is that the show is a visual medium, and seeing things is much worse than imagining them(The Mountain caves Oberyn's skull in with a couple of punches in the books).  But yeah, the show lacks the heart of the books. There are genuinely decent people that appear as minor characters that the show simply doesn't include, and some decent characters in the books who they make into assholes(Blackfish,The Waif,Ellaria). 

[Avaleigh]

I think Brienne's last couple of chapters in Feast are every bit as dark as anything the show has done, except for(season 5 spoiler)

burning Shireen.

 I also think

the Winterfell stuff with Ramsey and Jeyne

is much worse than in the show too. I think a lot of it is that the show is a visual medium, and seeing things is much worse than imagining them(The Mountain caves Oberyn's skull in with a couple of punches in the books).  But yeah, the show lacks the heart of the books. There are genuinely decent people that appear as minor characters that the show simply doesn't include, and some decent characters in the books who they make into assholes(Blackfish,The Waif,Ellaria).

Isn't that the truth about Ellaria. I actually object to the treatment of her character even more than the show's absurdly ridiculous Sand Snakes. It can't be said enough how much Dorne sucks on the show in comparison to the books.

[stillshimpy]

Oh sweet fancy Moses, I thought both of those spoiler bars were for season five and clicked both. 

 

Am I to take it that Ramsay gets a POV chapter?  I'm going to need a bigger liquor cabinet. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Oh sweet fancy Moses, I thought both of those spoiler bars were for season five and clicked both.

Am I to take it that Ramsay gets a POV chapter? I'm going to need a bigger liquor cabinet.

Book 5 is going to be fun.

[glowbug]

Here's the thing, ambi, I'm kind of in the same boat.  I'm not too much of a Dany or Jon fan and Tyrion goes either way for me.  When he's busy doing things, he's fascinating.  When he's busy with anything sexual, or regarding women, he's a bit tedious.  So I'm a little worried about Dance in terms of finding it engaging. 

 

I wasn't a fan of Dance at all and in fact [unpopular opinion alert] liked it even less than Feast (but only because I really enjoyed the last 20% of book four), but I really liked Jon's chapters. The Wall was by far and away my favorite storyline in Dance and I've never said that about any of the other books. I'll be interested to see what you think about Jon's storyline in Dance and the book as a whole. 

 

Oh sweet fancy Moses, I thought both of those spoiler bars were for season five and clicked both. 

 

Am I to take it that Ramsay gets a POV chapter?  I'm going to need a bigger liquor cabinet. 

 

 

If you want to know the answer here it is:

No. Thank God.

Edited December 12, 2015 by glowbug

[stillshimpy]

Thank you, but I already conferred with Mya on FB about it.  My dislike of Ramsay is known throughout the ....house, at least :-)  I did know there would be Theon chapters, I just wasn't making that connection.  

 

Well, I've finished Feast and mostly found the last chapter eerie as hell.  The Grey Sheep and the world they are building, eh?  So the Citadel is the enemy of all things magical? 

 

Also, I take it that's a Faceless Man (the artist formerly known as Jaqen) masquerading as Pate the "I died in that long Prologue, remember?"  Pig Boy with the yen for Rosey and the sticky fingers.  So the Faceless Men really serve Death, right? The Stranger of the Seven.  

 

That black candle is back and referenced again, and it's like a scrying glass on steroids, but I haven' figured out how they lit it.  When Leo was staring into the flame of the candle, I assumed something was happening with the Lord of Light again.   

 

So if Marwyn -- or whoever that now is, I'm assuming it's still Marwyn, since he was off studying all things Spooky prior to the Prologue -- got the candle lit and can see all sorts of things, presumably ....score one for the....yeah, well they aren't good, so  I guess score one for another side? 

[WSmith84]

Marywn is a name that was mentioned well back in book one, shimpy. I'll put it in spoilers in case you don't want to know where from:

Mirri, the maegi that treated Khal Drogo's wound and performed the blood magic ritual, claims to have learned her healing arts from a maester called Marwyn.

[stillshimpy]

Oh dear, that doesn't seem like it will bode well for Dany.  I mean, Mirri's grudge against Dany was not about her dragons, but still.  

 

Thank you for that prompt, there was no way I'd remember that on my own.  

[Andeleisha]

Marwyn was also mentioned in a Jaime chapter back in SOS: Qyburn says Marwyn was the only maester interested in his work.

There is another clue you are missing in the Sam chapter!

A small clue:

it relates to Dorne.

A big clue:

Doran could not lock up one of Oberyn's daughters, whose name is Sarella.

[Delta1212]

The last thing to pay attention to, that you could not have gotten in the Prologue but which you now have enough information to suss out, is the identity of Alleras the Sphinx.

Edit: Beat me to it. The big clue above + my post = really, really obvious answer.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

Oh, okay...I wasn't going to get that either...interesting does that mean that she went to the House of Black and White also?  The name is an anagram of Sarella and Arya was going by Cat, so it isn't as if she didn't also choose something close to her actual life.  

 

If anyone would want vengeance, I'm guessing it would be one of Oberyn's kids.  But no, I wouldn't have actually gotten that on my own, although I assumed that they are all...what...infiltrators would be the right word.  Not Marwyn, simply because the prologue covered some of his background. 

[WSmith84]

I think Marwyn should be the one worried about the fact that he taught Mirri. It's not likely to endear him to Dany, if she remembers his name.

[Alayne Stone]

I don't think we fully know what "Alleras"'s plans are. And don't worry Shimpy, I was unable to suss that out on my own too.

 

There are indeed some grim things to come in Dance but there are some good things to look forward to as well. I for one enjoy Jon's stuff in book 5.

 

You will have more divergences to look forward to, most I would say generally agreed as being for the better.

 

I'm really excited for you to read the prologue for Dance, but you said you were going to read The Mystery Knight first because you're going in publishing order? Is that still your plan? (if so I'm presently on the Mystery Knight as well!)

[ImpinAintEasy]

I was going to bring up the third D&E too. I couldn't remember if Shimpy read it yet. And I personally enjoyed ADWD more than AFFC. There is so much that isn't in the show, and almost all of it is more interesting. I even enjoy Dany's chapters on re-reads after reading a great blog that allowed me to look past all of the crazy names and better understand the story and themes that GRRM was trying to tell in Meereen. My favorite parts are in the North, as Jon is my favorite character, and he has a strong storyline in the book. I'd say my favorite POV in Dance is another one up North, but I'm not sure Shimpy will enjoy it as much. :)

Edited December 12, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[Brn2bwild]

I was going to bring up the third D&E too. I couldn't remember if Shimpy read it yet. And I personally enjoyed ADWD more than AFFC. There is so much that isn't in the show, and almost all of it is more interesting. I even enjoy Dany's chapters on re-reads after reading a great blog that allowed me to look past all of the crazy names and better understand the story and themes that GRRM was trying to tell in Meereen. My favorite parts are in the North, as Jon is my favorite character, and he has a strong storyline in the book. I'd say my favorite POV in Dance is another one up North, but I'm not sure Shimpy will enjoy it as much. :)

 

Having reread AFFC, I realize I like ADWD much, much better, even though 

the Quentyn chapters drag like hell and Dany and Tyrion never officially meet.

 I absolutely love the Winterfell plotline and 

everything to do with Manderly

.  There is actual payoff, whereas everything in AFFC feels like build up, build up, build up.

[Avaleigh]

Having reread AFFC, I realize I like ADWD much, much better, even though 

the Quentyn chapters drag like hell and Dany and Tyrion never officially meet.

 I absolutely love the Winterfell plotline and 

everything to do with Manderly

.  There is actual payoff, whereas everything in AFFC feels like build up, build up, build up.

I think the books are about even but I give the edge to Feast because of the Jaime chapters there. In Dance I basically enjoyed

Jon's chapters, Melisandre and Jaime's single chapters, Kevan's epilogue, and Theon's chapters save maybe the first one or two. The main thing I liked about Barristan's chapters was getting the Joanna reveal. That made my jaw drop at the time because I'd always wondered about the mother of the Lannister siblings and then we get this oddly convenient info about her. I'm super curious if Shimpy will make anything of it.

 

Also regarding Dance--

With Quentyn, I thought it was really only his first chapter that dragged. A big deal is made out of the time his story took and I want to say he only had three chapters. The second one is where he meets Dany and the third one he gets his ass set on fire and that chapter I was on the edge of my seat because I *knew* that shit wasn't going to work out. I still hope that the show includes something similar so that we can see what an achievement it was for Dany to be able to ride Drogon. I thought that was Quentyn's purpose. It shows that it isn't only about having the right blood although blood is a factor.

 

[glowbug]

I think the books are about even but I give the edge to Feast because of the Jaime chapters there. In Dance I basically enjoyed

Jon's chapters, Melisandre and Jaime's single chapters, Kevan's epilogue, and Theon's chapters save maybe the first one or two. The main thing I liked about Barristan's chapters was getting the Joanna reveal. That made my jaw drop at the time because I'd always wondered about the mother of the Lannister siblings and then we get this oddly convenient info about her. I'm super curious if Shimpy will make anything of it.

Also regarding Dance--

With Quentyn, I thought it was really only his first chapter that dragged. A big deal is made out of the time his story took and I want to say he only had three chapters. The second one is where he meets Dany and the third one he gets his ass set on fire and that chapter I was on the edge of my seat because I *knew* that shit wasn't going to work out. I still hope that the show includes something similar so that we can see what an achievement it was for Dany to be able to ride Drogon. I thought that was Quentyn's purpose. It shows that it isn't only about having the right blood although blood is a factor.

I really liked Theon's chapters too. They were disturbing, of course, but I love the creepy atmosphere and learning more about Theon's relationship with the Starks and seeing how his character developes. I'll be honest and say I wasn't a fan of Theon's chapters in Clash, and whenever anyone talked about his complexity I was always a little confused, but I got it during his POV in Dance. I also agree that Jamie's chapter, Melissandre's chapters and the epilogue were great.

Unfortunately, most of Dany's chapters and Tyrion's chapters were slow going for me and they make up a huge portion of the book or so it seemed. Dany's chapters outside of the House of the Undying one haven't really been the most interesting to me after book one so that wasn't too surprising but I usually love Tyrion's chapters so I was really disappointed.

Edited December 12, 2015 by glowbug

[Terra Nova]

It's not clear though if Sarellalleras has any 'big' plan at all, since it seems she's been at the Citadel for quite a lot of time: maybe, considering that each daughter seems to have taken one of Oberyn's traits/skills, and in Arianne's flashback Sarella seemed naturally curious, maybe she just wants to learn, and the best place for that is the Citadel. But yep, there's that pesky no-females policy, so she decided to pull a Mulan.

 

The best single POV in Dance for me is

Theon

by a long shot. Atmospheric, beautifully written... and of course nothing of that survives into the series ^^'

well, the rapey part are all there... wow...

Edited December 12, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

Eh, once we leave the concurrent-with-AFFC-part of ADWD I'm down with it too, but yeah, I'm a baddies girl and all that.

I don't get the Quentyn hate tbh. He is a bit "meh" (that's the point, I guess) sure, but I would rather have him than Victarion the nutty viking any day. I totally get why the show skipped (F)Aegon, but am still a little sad about it, because him potentially being a Blackfyre is what actually finally got me interested in House Targaryen at all.

 

That there was/is some conspirancy to get rid of all Dragons for good is interesting indeed. And on the Tyrell front we got Lazy Leo. R'hllor what an asshole. I love him. Because of course I do.

[Haleth]

Wow, I never made the Alleras/Sarella connection although I knew there was something sketchy about "him."  And I knew she was in Old Town.  Sheesh, I should pay more attention.

 

Unpopular opinion, but I enjoyed

the Tyrion storyline in Dance.  I enjoyed the river cruise, like Jon Con, and love Penny. And yes, the Northern storylines with Jon and Manderly.  Like I said above, small victories.  I always skip all the Theon chapters even though the transformation from Reek back to a repentant Theon is another step toward redemption.  The sexual violence of his chapters is too disturbing.  The Dany chapters bore me to death until the fighting pit scene.

 

Hey, won't it be fun to read the next book for the first time together?  

Edited December 12, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I think I will just plow through the third D&E story, but you know, those take two days at most.  At least thus far.  They are much lighter reading and part of the reason I have only been doing a couple of chapters at a time, then stopping to talk about them, is that I wouldn't pay as much attention to the story if I didn't stop and think it through in a sort of episodic way.  I guess that's really it.  I tend to pause at the "well that felt like an episodes worth of happenings" or the "What the hell was that?" moments. 

 

The last couple of times, I sort of wanted to digest the book for a few days.  Kind of get a sense how it must have felt for people reading this as it was published. Make sure I'd considered the tale as a whole, that sort of thing.  This book doesn't really lend itself to that though. I think where Feast fell down a little bit for me, was it felt like about 30% actual plot and narrative momentum and about 70% wandering around the narrative landscape. 

 

Just talking to all of you about this, I really get the sense it's not that random.  That a lot of things will show up on re-reads as having been intentional on part of George Martin.  On a first read though, it's almost impossible to know which nuggets to pick out.  I have to tell you, my eyes nearly crossed when Petyr began explaining to Sansa the entire "How is Harry the heir?" thing.   It was so clearly going to be of great import, but my god, that's the prime example -- in a condensed form -- of how this book felt.  "Oh shit, okay, I have to actually read this stuff that is mostly a compilation of names being dropped and tends to be a bit like studying history.  However since it has no real world context, it's like reading about Swedish history for me: I can only sort of try to dig in and take the 'this feels a bit nonsensical' down a notch or two.  

 

The problem isn't that it fails to be intricately and thoughtfully written, it's that it really is a story designed for people who want to be IN this world.  It's narrative flow is very much "here's the deep-end of full immersion" rather than a briskly paced tale.  

 

Then it finally resolves to "Oh good, woooooo.  We've summited the roller coaster hill and now comes the ri....Yeah, that was over quickly."  I can name -- just without really stopping to put in a "and then there was this" -- about five super "wow, that really caught me" moments in Feast.  

 

But there is a positive side to all that "Wow, way to wander around the fictional landscape" of it all: there are elements at play in this story that I never would have guessed at, at all.  For one thing, color me astounded by what the actual Sparrow plot contains.  That's really some pretty sophisticated groundwork for an intricate plot.  If I hadn't already known about the Cersei's trap ensnaring her, that would have been the most delightful development since chocolate.  

 

Now, the Iron Islanders stuff just didn't work all that well for me.  I find them....bleh.  Just not my cup-of-story-tea.  Yes, I did note all the "holy sit, so the Iron Islanders are a huge part of this story and the narrative.   I never would have guessed the scale of them from the Show."  In the show, Theon's home seems to be one grim fishing village, with a biggish house, a bunch of filthy, toothless people who are allergic to color and about ten ships.   If I'm willing to believe in seven or so that I never saw.  

 

So reading the passage where Sam is on the seas that are just swarming with Reavers, was startling in a good way.  Finally, pay off! They came to play on this field, in a not insubstantial manner.  Woo!  

 

Everything with Dorne we've already discussed why it is a tragedy that the show swerved there, but that's another "Now that entire thread made this lengthy book worth it, all by itself" for me.  Surprisingly a lot of stuff with the prologue also added a completely unexpected "Whoa, holy shit." to the entire proceedings, because I never would have guessed that they had some All Seeing Candle and forces at play that were working with Magic beyond Melisandre's rather annoying  stuff with flames. In the show, that is,  because we never get any idea what it is she thinks she sees....so she just looks like the world's weirdest Scentsy rep. with her flame obsession.

 

Whenever I encounter that stuff, I just feel so sorry for all of you.  We're in here because I had such a meltdown over "I am done with this abusive-ass story! FUCK THIS!" fit  and Mya basically stuck a tranquilizer dart in my butt and talked to me until I quit swearing ever fourth word and randomly insulting the furnishings in Martin's Mental House.  

 

But that has to be such a small thing compared to how it must have felt to people who were waiting for years to see this hit a screen and discovered that most of what made it worthwhile: The Starks are Wargs, the Wildlings are the peopel who understand the old ways and are likely to be the best defense against the Army of the Dead.  Arya did not just join Assassins Unlimited, they are tied to Dany's story in very particular ways.  On and on and on that one goes, up to but not excluding the fact that several of these characters were turned into entirely different people in the translation.  

 

It must have been frustrating as could be. So that's a funny thing too, just feeling all these points of empathy for "Wow! That's some really riveting material! Oh....wow.  How must it have sucked to not see it onscreen?" 

 

Particularly the stuff with the direwolves is the easiest example of it all.  I felt like they were in the story specifically to emotionally wound and upset me.  Turned out to not be the case, but that is only the  tip of the purpose iceberg.  

 

Just saying, in a rare attempt at brevity:  Jeez, you guys must have felt like your treasured tale got swallowed by The Wire and crapped out into The Road.  

 

ETA:  Excuse all typos, please.  I'm sorry! I have to walk my dogs now, or there will be a messy coup.  I will hunt out my regularly scheduled screw-ups when I get back! 

Edited December 12, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

Great post shimpy!
 

This book doesn't really lend itself to that though. I think where Feast fell down a little bit for me, was it felt like about 30% actual plot and narrative momentum and about 70% wandering around the narrative landscape.

 

And that's the "agreed on" criticism of it in and out of fandom, yep.

 

Just talking to all of you about this, I really get the sense it's not that random.  That a lot of things will show up on re-reads as having been intentional on part of George Martin.  On a first read though, it's almost impossible to know which nuggets to pick out.

 

Indeed. This is why everybody should read it twice, but many folks didn't even manage to get through it once and are not inclined to give it a second chance. Unfortunately.

 

Now, the Iron Islanders stuff just didn't work all that well for me.  I find them....bleh.  Just not my cup-of-story-tea.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, but there are quite a bunch off people in fandom who are really into them. Different tastes and all that.

 

As for Dorne, I kind of did a double-take during an early "about season 5" interview with D&D, where they "were delighted that they managed to include Dorne", which implies to me, that Dorne was not meant to be on the show at all (except for Oberyn) at first, the probable reason for this is a ADWD spoiler

Dorne will be (F)Aegon's faction. No (F)Aegon --> no need for Dorne.

but ultimately changed their minds (probably being sick from GRRM's rants about the Sand Snakes's tits utter importance). It wasn't a entirely thought through change of mind it looks like.

 

It must have been frustrating as could be. So that's a funny thing too, just feeling all these points of empathy for "Wow! That's some really riveting material! Oh....wow.  How must it have sucked to not see it onscreen?"

 

I for one am actually really forgiving of the show on that front, but ...

 

On and on and on that one goes, up to but not excluding the fact that several of these characters were turned into entirely different people in the translation.

 

... *breathes heavily into a paper bag*, *cuddles book!Loras to her chest*, *contemplates cuddling book!Cersei too, but nah ... maybe better not* makes me irate, to the point of having given up on the show. And if someone had told me I would stop watching the show in favor of waiting for TWOW two years ago, I would have laughed at them.

Edited December 12, 2015 by ambi76

[Terra Nova]

Next D&E novella has beautiful characters, including my dear

Ser Maynard Plumm a.k.a. Brynden Rivers

.

Watch out for subtleties and tiny clues, Shimpy, as the title says there are several misteries to unravel in this one!

 

ETA: a small Easter egg in Sansa's last chapter, maybe some sort of apology on Martin's behalf for the mess with the canceled several years gap, the delay in the publishing and the splitting in two, was Petyr comment about thinking of having 'four or five years of peace' so that his plans could come into fruition, but Cersei has been screwing the realm too quickly :)

Edited December 12, 2015 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

That there was/is some conspirancy to get rid of all Dragons for good is interesting indeed.

 

I know Marwyn said that, but I got the impression that it was his bitterness being expressed rather than an actual active conspiracy.  He's making the Archmaesters ot to be some sort of Illuminati, which seems weird for this setting.

 

If you read some of the world-building material, it's pretty obvious that the Dance of the Dragons civil war killed off most of the dragons.  Does he really think the maesters manipulated the situation into causing that?  It seems far fetched to me.  More likely, the "Maester Conspiracy" was something like:  all the dragons are dead, lets try to build a world without them and without magic, so let's adopt a disdain for the "higher mysteries" and get people used to our scientific-esque paradigm.  More of an attempt to change the culture than an active plot to murder the dragons.

 

Unless the Maesters somehow managed to cause the Doom of Valyria, but I just think that's too implausible.  There are of course fan theories that say just that.  Book 5 spoiler:

I remember reading one theory that said the devastation of Hardhome 600 years ago was the maester's testing the WMD that they later used on Valyria.  Again, too far-fetched for me.

[Andeleisha]

So Shimpy, I'd be really interested in how you are feeling now as you approach ADWD, since it's the last book that's been released. Are you looking forward to exploring the larger world of fandom, spoiler free? Are you dreading joining the rest of us in the long wait for book 6? Do you kind of want to re-watch the show to compare it to the books? Do you think you'll watch season 6? 
 
Re: your comments about the books narrative meandering. 
 
This is just my personal opinion, but I think that GRRM fell more in love with this world as he wrote on, and the books' popularity gave him license to ignore his editors, so he lost all incentive to write a tight story. He loved his characters and wanted to delve more deeply into some themes that didn't directly relate back to the main story he's telling here. From a writing perspective, I think this must have been really fun, because he got to really go deep and lay the groundwork for plots we still haven't seen. It also allowed him to really layer in all these secret plots and easter eggs to the point that, as you said, it's hard to figure out what is important. The sheer volume of factoids he lays on us obfuscate whatever foreshadowing might otherwise jump out at us. 
 
I can understand why that's frustrating for some readers (I am not one of them) but I think we'll be really glad about it once all the books are out. Not because I think everything he's writing is 100% relevant, but because it IS fun to spend more time in this world we love. Think about other book series you've loved -- I would read the shit out of an expanded The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe that included the years of their reign, or Harry Potter spending his summer at the Burrow playing quidditch. Yeah, I want to find out what happens at the "end" of this story, but I think that ultimately, GRRM has made the journey MORE enjoyable by slowing down. 
 
Unpopular opinion: A Dance with Dragons has always been my favorite book. 

I know Marwyn said that, but I got the impression that it was his bitterness being expressed rather than an actual active conspiracy.  He's making the Archmaesters ot to be some sort of Illuminati, which seems weird for this setting.

 

If you read some of the world-building material, it's pretty obvious that the Dance of the Dragons civil war killed off most of the dragons.  Does he really think the maesters manipulated the situation into causing that?  It seems far fetched to me.  More likely, the "Maester Conspiracy" was something like:  all the dragons are dead, lets try to build a world without them and without magic, so let's adopt a disdain for the "higher mysteries" and get people used to our scientific-esque paradigm.  More of an attempt to change the culture than an active plot to murder the dragons.

 

Unless the Maesters somehow managed to cause the Doom of Valyria, but I just think that's too implausible.  There are of course fan theories that say just that.  Book 5 spoiler:

I remember reading one theory that said the devastation of Hardhome 600 years ago was the maester's testing the WMD that they later used on Valyria.  Again, too far-fetched for me.

 

ADWD Spoilers: 

We should come back to this when Shimpy gets to one of the later Arya chapters! (Chapter 64 in ADWD, so we've got a while, hah.) Arya describes the group of Faceless Men, and one of them is described as fat with fierce eyes and yellow teeth. I've wondered if it could be Marwyn.

[bobbybuilderton]

Well there is the theory that that's what the faceless men are even infiltrating the citadel for, to find out what they know about how to kill dragons. Given what we learn of their origin in book 4, it makes sense. There is also the theory that Jaqen is a rogue assassin hired by Euron to assassinate dragons, paid for with the dragon egg he threw into the sea just because (yeah right). Then there is the fact that Tyrion sees what he believes to be some of the last dragon skulls and notes that they are small and oddly shaped, and probably didn't last long.

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiffs skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long.
From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar’s gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.

 

 

This is often interpreted as meaning that there was some sort of sabotage to the dragons' health

[jellyroll2]

ADWD spoiler

The entire northern plot line, from Jon and the Wall, to Winterfell, to Manderly to me is what made ADWD better than Feast imo. All those storylines were riveting.

[Brn2bwild]

Just talking to all of you about this, I really get the sense it's not that random.  That a lot of things will show up on re-reads as having been intentional on part of George Martin.  On a first read though, it's almost impossible to know which nuggets to pick out.  I have to tell you, my eyes nearly crossed when Petyr began explaining to Sansa the entire "How is Harry the heir?" thing.   It was so clearly going to be of great import, but my god, that's the prime example -- in a condensed form -- of how this book felt.  "Oh shit, okay, I have to actually read this stuff that is mostly a compilation of names being dropped and tends to be a bit like studying history.  However since it has no real world context, it's like reading about Swedish history for me: I can only sort of try to dig in and take the 'this feels a bit nonsensical' down a notch or two.  

 

Yeah, that Harry the Heir story irritated me, like Petyr was trying to be so, so clever, when all he had to do was just spit out: "Though he's a distant relation, he's the next in line after Robert Arryn."

 

Another thing Martin seems to be fond of, that the final Arianne chapter was a prime example of, is the "hurry up and wait" chapter.  I've counted at least 3-4 different situations where a character is imprisoned and doesn't know what's happening, and thinks that the guard will tell him/her, but the guard doesn't tell him/her, so he/she has to wait some more and speculate as to what's happening, and the next day a guard comes and the process starts again...  It's also like that 

in the chapter where Davos is imprisoned by Manderly

. Really, not every experience of imprisonment needs to be drawn out a dozen pages.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[WindyNights]

I know Marwyn said that, but I got the impression that it was his bitterness being expressed rather than an actual active conspiracy.  He's making the Archmaesters ot to be some sort of Illuminati, which seems weird for this setting.

 

If you read some of the world-building material, it's pretty obvious that the Dance of the Dragons civil war killed off most of the dragons.  Does he really think the maesters manipulated the situation into causing that?  It seems far fetched to me.  More likely, the "Maester Conspiracy" was something like:  all the dragons are dead, lets try to build a world without them and without magic, so let's adopt a disdain for the "higher mysteries" and get people used to our scientific-esque paradigm.  More of an attempt to change the culture than an active plot to murder the dragons.

 

Unless the Maesters somehow managed to cause the Doom of Valyria, but I just think that's too implausible.  There are of course fan theories that say just that.  Book 5 spoiler:

I remember reading one theory that said the devastation of Hardhome 600 years ago was the maester's testing the WMD that they later used on Valyria.  Again, too far-fetched for me.

 

If you read the Princess and the Queen, you can see

how the maesters might have pushed the Targaryens into a civil war.

 

Also it's very conceivable that the last dragons

were poisoned by the maesters

.

Yeah, that Harry the Heir story irritated me, like Petyr was trying to be so, so clever, when all he had to do was just spit out: "Though he's a distant relation, he's the next in line after Robert Arryn."

 

Another thing Martin seems to be fond of, that the final Arianne chapter was a prime example of, is the "hurry up and wait" chapter.  I've counted at least 3-4 different situations where a character is imprisoned and doesn't know what's happening, and thinks that the guard will tell him/her, but the guard doesn't tell him/her, so he/she has to wait some more and speculate as to what's happening, and the next day a guard comes and the process starts again...   Really, not every experience of imprisonment needs to be drawn out a dozen pages.

 

GRRM likes to use those moments to flesh out their characters. I can understand how tiring it can get though.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Speaking of 'The Princess and the Queen', is there any thought to reading it before ADWD too? It's not necessary, but the 5th book's title does sort of draw from the events that take place in that short story.

Or would it spoil the "Aegon" reveal?

I would lean towards not reading it now, but it is an option. 

[WindyNights]

Speaking of 'The Princess and the Queen', is there any thought to reading it before ADWD too? It's not necessary, but the 5th book's title does sort of draw from the events that take place in that short story.

Or would it spoil the "Aegon" reveal?

I would lean towards not reading it now, but it is an option.

That wasn't even released until after ADWD and shimpy said she'll be reading them in published order.

[WSmith84]

I must say, it was rather annoying reading Sam's (fairly tedious) chapters only for them to end just before this really juicy, interesting story starts.

[Autarch]

Glad to see Shimpy decided to read The Mystery Knight first. Lots of good stuff there that's relevant going forward. Will be interesting to see how you interpret some of it, Shimpy.

[magdalene]

"Dance" is my least favorite book in the series so far. I found it to be quite bloated and flawed.  

A lot of my dislike has to do with how tedious and obnoxious I found Tyrion, and Dany continued to bore me. I did enjoy the Jon chapters, and while I don't ever "enjoy" Theon, I found his chapters very well written.

[Mya Stone]

"Dance" is my least favorite book in the series so far. I found it to be quite bloated and flawed.

A lot of my dislike has to do with how tedious and obnoxious I found Tyrion, and Dany continued to bore me. I did enjoy the Jon chapters, and while I don't ever "enjoy" Theon, I found his chapters very well written.

I have grown to love both Feast and Dance, although I liked Dance a lot more than Feast originally.

Reading the Meereenese Blot essays helped me like

Dany's story a lot more. I was annoyed with Tyrion at first but I liked his journey. And Jon's chapters were fantastic. Theon's arc is my absolute favorite, though. I think it's the best thing George has written.

[WindyNights]

Adwd is actually my second favorite book. It'd be my favorite if GRRM

had included the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire.

[Brn2bwild]

I have grown to love both Feast and Dance, although I liked Dance a lot more than Feast originally.

Reading the Meereenese Blot essays helped me like

Dany's story a lot more. I was annoyed with Tyrion at first but I liked his journey. And Jon's chapters were fantastic. Theon's arc is my absolute favorite, though. I think it's the best thing George has written.

Show Dany's rule of Meereen made me appreciate Book Dany's rule much more. ADWD spoilers:

At least Book Dany seems to be trying to make a genuine effort to rule her conquered country, as opposed to Show Dany, who hides in her pyramid and seems to think that only disciplining slaves and former masters is most important, as opposed to crazy stuff like the food supply and forms of trade.

[Ashara Payne]

Agreed about the Meereenese blot essays. I've heard George has expressed a positive opinion about them as well, although that could be rumour or speculation, I've not seen evidence.

As for The Princess and the Queen, I know it was published after The Rogue Prince, but wouldn't it be preferable to read it after? I've only listened to the audiobooks (on YouTube), but The Princess and the Queen is complicated enough to follow even without the prior knowledge of The Rogue Prince. This may just be my bias, having falling asleep listening to it over a dozen times before I finally finished it!

I'd definitely recommend those two before exploring online blogs/discussions. And of course, there's TWOIAF, too, although many people won't buy that on the principle of not lining Lindaaa's pockets. Surely the artists get a cut, though? Or would they have been paid a flat fee?

Edited December 13, 2015 by Ashara Payne

[stillshimpy]

I'm sorry, I missed this question yesterday:

 

So Shimpy, I'd be really interested in how you are feeling now as you approach ADWD, since it's the last book that's been released. Are you looking forward to exploring the larger world of fandom, spoiler free? Are you dreading joining the rest of us in the long wait for book 6? Do you kind of want to re-watch the show to compare it to the books? Do you think you'll watch season 6?

 

I'm really of two minds on the subject, Andeliesha.  I have a feeling this is the book where I'm going to get to know Jon best.  Just the set up: He's the commander of the Night's Watch.  That puts him in an isolated position.  It ought to yield some revealing materials about him.   I'm also really looking forward to the Theon chapters, specifically because that's another area that I've encountered: People love and have a lot of sympathy for Theon and whereas I get that it's going to be sad, I also want to get to know that character better.   That comes with a bit of dread about more exposure to both Ramsay and Roose Bolton.  I'm not exactly delighted at that prospect.  

 

The character I'm just sort of neutral on watching her progression is Dany, and I think it's because -- as near as I can tell -- her story in the show aligns a little bit better with her book arc than other characters.  

 

At the end of Feast it was the first time I had that "No! Don't stop there!" sensation, so it's also the first book I'm eagerly anticipating.  

 

And I'm really thrilled to be joining the ranks of the readers/Bookwalkers rather than waiting for the season to start with the Unsullied.  Don't get me wrong, that is such a fun group, but as discussed the show stopped being fun all by itself kind of a while ago.  I wouldn't have hung in there as a completely unspoiled person if it hadn't been for them.  

 

For one thing, particularly as Feast unfolded and there was just so many moments made of "Wait, what?  That didn't happen in the show, at all, what is going on?" that I've come to appreciate something I wouldn't have if I'd opted out of reading the books: How much the readers have never spoiled us to.  

 

It's really easy for the Unsullied group to take a dim view of book readers because we were the recipients of people doing things just to be mean.  Now the readers who weren't doing anything were difficult to appreciate, because our only real experience with people who had read the books were rare individuals pulling malicious things.  However, there is this huge wealth of things that no one ever hinted at.  I knew that people were displeased with Loras representation, but that was easy to put down to: Oh my god, they made him an offensive cliche.  The only thing that stopped them from writing a scene where Loras enthused about his love of shopping is that they couldn't figure out how to include it WHILE having him trawl for hookups. 

 

But I didn't know he was hideously injured at Dragonstone.  I never would have guessed he was actually a composite character for THREE Tyrells.  Or that there's a lot of dignity and grace to the character in the books, which makes me think much better of George R. R. Martin.   

 

Or one of the biggest revelations: All the Stark children have a connection to a form of magic when it comes to warging.  

 

I could go on with this list, but it's a really substantial one.  So leaving behind the Unsullied group sort of sucked.  It was like our game night for five seasons, but I am not a bitter person and I really felt like the show was becoming a bitter experience for me.  Still, I kind of thought, "Oh man, this will be lonely going forward on the show."  So it's be a nice surprise to find out that I'm just joining a different group, the vasty majority of whom were busy being beyond decent and kind.  You guys sat on some pretty big ass stuff.  Including the whole "Joffrey's going to die" thing, which is particularly startling because we have people spoil Loras being engaged to Sansa and being paired up with Tyrion very early on.  Not in that same "drop a bomb on you" kind of way, but people were guessing that when it made no sense to guess it.  

 

But still, it's impossible to guess at the secrets a group is keeping if they are keeping them well, you know?  So that's been fun too.  It's been like opening a three-fold goody bag.  First I get the great depth to the story and the fun surprises, then I get to appreciate all the stuff that a bunch of people worked to make sure we never found out....and successfully kept it all under wraps....which gives me an appreciation for a large fanbase....and then ....hey, I get to join that group?  

 

Yeah, it's a bigger win for me than it is a loss.  Waiting between the seasons as the story just took a dive into the Abyss of Grim and Despair was not fun.  Waiting for stuff to happen in the books is kind of fun.  So it's more let getting something back than losing it.  

I think I do want to rewatch the show after I finish Dance.  I never would have guessed that, by the way. I have not rewatched this series.  Ever.  Now the first season I'd watch each episode multiple times.   By the second season I was already into the "there are some scenes I'd watched multiple times to get the details straight" but I would never have sat down to watch it again all the way through, willingly that is.  Now I think I might have an interest in watching it again, but not the stuff with Theon and Ramsay.  

 

I will never forgive the show for some of the reveling in violence and torture that it has done.  

Edited December 13, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

Yeah it always annoys me when people hate people who like the books, just because I'm like THEY'RE SO MUCH BETTER YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND #NOONEUNDERSTAAANDS

[Terra Nova]

... AngryGoTFan, is that you?

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, Jon and Theon's chapters are specifically amongst my favorite in the book. They are involved in two of the most compelling storylines in the book and I think you'll be pleased to find the Wall storyline to be far more complex than what we got in the show. There's also one new POV

Melisandre

I'm quite excited for you to read.

 

Dany's arc is far more nuanced in the book as well. People tend to generally be split about the arc but I tend to view it more positively.

You have plenty more "wait! that didn't happen in the show!" moments to look forward to. :D

 

Oh man, and when you start to get truely frustrated with the show I highly recommend checking out AngryGotFan's episode synopses. They are hillarious and one of two things that kept me sane through season 5 (the other being the hillariously sarcastic synopses gotgifsandmusics/theculteralvacuum do on Tumblr). I almost look forward to their reactions more than the actual show itself.

 

Wait, who am I kidding. I 100% look forward more to their reactions than the show itself now.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Terra Nova]

Theon's chapters are beautifully written and incredibly atmospheric, really goosebumps-inducing (the only other point where I get those is with

dead things in the woods, dead things in the water

, like, I'm typing and my skin's already crawling XD)

[Mya Stone]

I've been talking up Theon's chapters to Shimpy since she agreed to read the books, heh.

Also, for real, Bobby..why so Angry? ;)

[Terra Nova]

I've been talking up Theon's chapters to Shimpy since she agreed to read the books, heh.

 

http://i.imgur.com/89pDr2F.jpg

Edited December 13, 2015 by Terra Nova