Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Ashara Payne]

Is it just a fan theory or is it made obvious in the books (can't remember) that Melisandre went to Dragonstone because she saw it in her visions?

It's the place that's important, not Stannis?

[WindyNights]

Fan theory.

And that's not one I actually even heard of.

Edited October 29, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

Well, she tells Jon that Dragonstone is the place of "salt and smoke" which is supposed to be where Azor Ahai will be born.

[stillshimpy]

Oh God.  Jaime's chapter was one of the more difficult ones to get through.  Yes, I know that's Jeyne Poole being sent to marry Ramsay in the guise of Arya Stark.  I guessed who it was the other night on Facebook, while chatting with Mya.  So that was a fairly sickening revelation and it's not like my heart swelled with hope when Jaime, in a fit of trying to keep his promises, sent Brienne out after Sansa, without Pod.  

 

So, oh goody, poor Jeyne Poole, who god friggin' knows where Littlefinger's had her kept all this time and how she's been treated and now she has to marry Ramsay?  I don't think I've ever actually been stuck in the position of hoping a child figures out a way to commit suicide before reaching her destination.  I hope her horse throws her as an act of mercy. 

 

I couldn't even take any "Oh good" in the suffering of the hideous Mountain because I'm pretty sure I know where that's heading. 

 

Then the background pardoning of all the people who were likely complicit in the Red Wedding was actually incredibly painful.  Full pardons for the Westerlings and Jeyne survived?  Full pardons for the Westerlings and lands granted to Freys left and right.  Again, I just can't believe the Westerlings weren't fully in on this, including the possibility that Jeyne was, a full pardon for a girl who Robb Stark spent most of his time trying to impregnate?   Yeah.  That makes ZERO sense unless they were complicit and Jeyne was over there downing abortion-herb tea over and over.  She's alive and PARDONED?  So there's no way that she can be carrying a Stark heir. For as fond as she was supposed to be of Robb, apparently being welcomed back to the fold after her husband was slaughtered as part of a plot. 

 

I guess there's a chance that Catelyn Stark gets her wish if Jeyne Westerling (dudes....they named her as Jeyne Westerling in the pardon....how does everyone NOT think she was in on the entire deal?)   As for "The Westerlings couldn't have been in on this if they allowed their own son/daughter/groom/pet cat/treasured wardrobe to be there" ....do we have any reason to believe her brother actually died at The Twins?  Because if her brother lived through that bloodbath, then I think that's kind of an answer in and of itself.  As for Jeyne trying to go with Robb three different times, I don't think that proves anything other than she did care about him, and might have believed he'd be spared if he was with her.  

I'll hold off fully determining that in my own mind for a while, but that fucking pardon currently has me leaning heavily in the direction of "It was a complete set up, from start to finish and that Jeyne was so desperate not to be parted from him actually says to me she was afraid he was headed towards his death."   

 

Here's something that I -- again -- told Mya the other day:  The problem with "I doubt that Jeyne was in on it."  I think she had to be.  Someone had to tell her to go the full distance and fuck Robb Stark, because without force, it takes two to commit the deed.   The very fact that she screwed him, because that's just again, not a normal thing to have happen with someone other than your intended.  Girls were brought up to guard their virginity like it was gold, because it actually was a commodity.  So that's yet another problem with the "surely it was just Jeyne's mother" ....but if it was just Jeyne's mother, Jeyne's mother was telling her to go ahead and get it on with Robb Stark.   

 

So at some point, there's complicity on Jeyne's part.  

 

Onward to much of that rather sad chapter: 

 

A quote: "It would be seven years before Tommen was ruling in his own right.  Until then the realm would remain firmly in the hands of his lord grandfather."  

 

Seven vs. three if Joffrey was ruling.  Three or would it be closer to two?  For everyone who thinks that Tywin wouldn't kill Joffrey: Jaime doesn't even care that Joffrey was killed.  Do you really think that Tywin's knotted up his knickers over it?  If he has a suspect to be framed and it also gets rid of Tyrion?  The only thing I can imagine him saying is "Whee."   The only thing is, I don't think he had any intention of letting Sansa Stark get away.  Although, he actually might have, given the "Fake Arya is married off to the new Warden of the North."   

 

And if Jeyne Westerling is knocked up?  He's got his heir to Winterfell under Lannister control in a way that he wasn't going to with Sansa Stark, who he couldn't even get Tyrion to actually consummate their marriage, so there would be reasons that Tywin might be willing to throw away that "key to the North" seeing as he was making up an entirely different one anyway.   If Jeyne Westerling wasn't in on all of this, why was she pardoned as Jeyne Westerling?  I am so genuinely confused as to why anyone would think they weren't entirely in on this plot.  

 

It's obvious she actually cared about Robb, but the "rode out three times" detail bugs the hell out of me, because that does seem to suggest that she knew he was riding towards his death and was trying to choose to go with him.  

 

Okay, back to the "that was a lot of icky stuff to swallow in one chapter" ....I now understand why they so fully changed Cersei's characterization for the show.  Not only is Cersei an escapee from a 1930s Disney Film: Now with added incest and indiscriminate seduction as a tool traits....that entire character construct is like a cliche of every misogynistic "Evil woman" stereotype rolled into one.  

 

Then there's the "Oh great, so apparently, Joffrey...who once cut open a cat and took it to Robert looking for approval...." did it, perhaps seeking out parental approval? 

 

Oy.  Enough already.  That better be the last note to be played in the goofy "Knifey:  The Steely Eyed Missile Dagger behind it all, but who is sinister enough to wield him?"  Vincent Price just declared it a sunny day, broken the fucking organ of melodrama and declared he no longer gives a shit who the murderer is.  

 

Goodnight, sweet Knifey and farewell. 

 

I think it is just supposed to be a sign of how truly unhealthy Jaime's "love" for Cersei is that he has no feelings towards their children other than thinking of them as ....basically the weeds that grew out of the garden of their weird, weird love.  He has that little regard for, or affection for them.  But I think that his lack of feeling towards them is more about a feeling of self-loathing over his relationship with Cersei and his history as the Kingslayer.   When he keeps saying that he'll leave the Kingsguard to marry Cersei, he was also simultaneously turning down the chance to go and live at Casterly Rock with her, presumably to do as he pleased, as long as he'd consent to marry someone and provide an actual heir with the last name of Lannister.  But he does seem to be choosing to end having any kind of dishonorable relationship with Cersei....without ever getting to the point of understanding how dishonorable it has always been. 

 

Until we get to that entry in the Big White Book of Self-Confrontation of Failings and what he records.  He calls Robb Stark the Young Wolf in the War of the Five Kings, nothing more, nothing less.  He doesn't call him a traitor.  He doesn't name his father a traitor either.  He just names Robb as the person who defeated him in the Whispering Woods.  He doesn't name Catelyn Stark as the person who ransomed him for the promise unfulfilled, which is oddly, as kind a thing as name Robb Stark simply as the Young Wolf.  Catelyn isn't going on any permanent historical record, to be read eight hundred years hence as the woman who lost the war of the five kings, and brought about the death of her entire family (or as good as).  

 

That scene in the bath house when  he's feverish and yelling "By what right does the Wolf judge the Lion, by what right?"  I sort of wanted to yell back, "By all the rules and rights you all pretend to play by" ....and then he judges Robb Stark far more kindly than he does himself.  Names everyone who maimed him in almost agnostic fashion and then ends the entry with words of praise about Brienne, the Maid of Tarth. 

 

So that's pretty much got to be the chapter where someone else was yodeling that fine, screw it, she gave up and gave in:  She liked Jaime now. 

 

I guess I might someday, but it actually has to do with what he said about Robb Stark.  Recording his name in a book about honor with what could pass for an honorific and then recording Brienne's name there in the same manner.  I still can't forgive the "Kill his men" because that was evil just for the fucking sake of it, but people aren't wholly defined by the worst thing they ever did, or the best either.  Jaime put his past behind him and contemplated what he wanted to do with his future, seemingly with an eye towards behaving honorably.  

 

We'll see how that goes.  I have to admit, I am glad that the show kept swapping in Bronn for certain small interactions, solely because they liked the actor and that they kept having him sing, because he's such a good singer.   Every now and then the show made choices just for the fun of making them.   I'm sort of sad that it looks like Pod going with Brienne was one of them.  

 

Oh jeez.  Poor Jeyne Poole.  I'm probably going to wake up at three in the damned morning saying that.  Man, just when you could really use "died of a fever" being deployed with swift and merciful hand, the microbiology of a world without indoor plumbing lets poor Jeyne Poole survive whatever Harry Potteresque cupboard Littlefinger had her stuffed in this entire time, only to be delivered to fucking Ramsay. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

Oh shimpy - you got to the fake Ayra plot.  When you don't know what's coming, that whole thing ticks you off.  When you do, it must be horrifying.  And I will always fail to understand how anyone can like LF other than in a "he's so delightfully evil" kind of way.  There is just no good in him - ugh.

 

Anyway, yea Cersei in the book is exactly the stereotypically female villain.  She is awful and kind of predatory - with pretty much no "she's a loving mother" layers to make her more complex like the show is trying to do with her.  I don't remember if it was in this thread or another one, but I once said she might be the most misogynistic character in the books - I mean, she really does seem to hate women and hate that she is one.   

[Triskan]

Hehe, you're getting closer and closer to the end of the book...

 

You'll find out that most of the remaining chapters are centered around one particular story arc and I definitly cant wait for you to read these ! :)

[WindyNights]

Concerning the Westerlings, more things will be revealed in AFFC.

Concerning Cersei, well I think lightening Cersei ended up missing one of the points of Cersei.

" Cersei is far from a feminist character. However, she is a fascinating character to examine from a feminist perspective, because her entire life (and much of her personality) is a reflection of the misogynistic nature of Westerosi society. She’s an ambitious woman who has had to fight against limitations her whole life, and who has been made hard, cruel and bitter as a result."

I think the closest the show got to book Cersei was when GRRM wrote her during the Blackwater episode.

[WindyNights]

Oh shimpy - you got to the fake Ayra plot. When you don't know what's coming, that whole thing ticks you off. When you do, it must be horrifying. And I will always fail to understand how anyone can like LF other than in a "he's so delightfully evil" kind of way. There is just no good in him - ugh.

Anyway, yea Cersei in the book is exactly the stereotypically female villain. She is awful and kind of predatory - with pretty much no "she's a loving mother" layers to make her more complex like the show is trying to do with her. I don't remember if it was in this thread or another one, but I once said she might be the most misogynistic character in the books - I mean, she really does seem to hate women and hate that she is one.

Cersei does love her kids in her fucked up way more than she loves anyone else at least.

Well the most misogynistic prominent female character perhaps but not the most misogynistic character.

Remember

Randyll Tarly who thought Brienne might learn from a good raping that she deserved it if happened to her. And having soldiers hold down a whore to wash her genitals out with lye. Which is pretty much genital mutilation.

Hell,

I'd say the High Sparrow is up there too

Edited October 29, 2015 by WindyNights

[nksarmi]

I um forgot about the spoiler quote you just tagged there and I'm trying to remember when it happened, but that's ok - I'm sure we'll get there with shimpy.  And yea I guess many of the men are misogynistic, but somehow it comes off worse to me when its a woman hating other women and Cersei is really bad at hating her gender in my opinion.

[bobbybuilderton]

I sincerely doubt they changed cersei to avoid misogyny. IMO, given what I've seen of them, it's much more likely that they didn't understand the character. Especially given that a lot of her characterisation comes after book 3 (at which point they'd already been caught up in trying to make the show on a tight schedule/budget. Remember, it was the red wedding that they got up to before making their decision). They didn't know sam was a point of view character....

Edited October 29, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[WindyNights]

I mean with Stannis, it seems like they didn't get him, but with Cersei it seems more like they wanted to intentionally soften her for a more balanced Cersei.

And while yes, she's more relatable, she also has less agency and it misses that Cersei is a deconstruction of the evil Queen.

Edited October 29, 2015 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

dudes....they named her as Jeyne Westerling in the pardon....how does everyone NOT think she was in on the entire deal?

 

Non-spoilery answer:  Jeyne told Catelyn that her mother was giving her a "posset" to increase fertility.  It's possible that Sybell was slipping her a contraceptive without her knowledge.  It's also possible that Jeyne knew full well that the posset was a contraceptive and was lying to Cat, though why bother with the lie?  "Robb and I are knocking boots 3-4 times a day trying to get pregnant" doesn't need the embellishment.

[Delta1212]

I'm of the mind that the mother arranged most of it (possibly with other complicit family members) and that Jeyne may not have been aware of what was going on.

As far as being named Jeyne Westerling in the pardon, well, I'd imagine that would be something else her mother would make sure to stipulate in whatever deal she struck. Nobody wants the girl to bear the Stark name after this. Not her family who probably wants to reap whatever benefit they can and put the association as far behind them as possible otherwise, and not Tywin who doesn't want any more competition for the loyalty of the North.

I doubt what Jeyne did or didn't want played into things all that much whether she was "in on it" or not.

[stillshimpy]

Because normally speaking, that's the first order of business for a new queen:  Get knocked up right away.  As for why tell Catelyn about it, so the readers could figure out: "Oh, she was supposed to be taken fertility enhancing herbs....but it's far more likely that they were contraceptive herbs.  Gotcha."   

 

Also, mostly that was just such a freaking WEIRD thing to tell ones mother-in-law that it it's also a detail added to draw attention to the entire passage, because who in the hell would ever tell their mother-in-law that?  Why not leave it at the "We are hoping for an heir and trying, my mother has given me a posset ..."  Since it's fiction and it's constructed for a reason, I'd assume that would be "DOES THIS STRIKE YOU AS WEIRD?" authorial detail. 

 

I mean, it pretty much exists, without question to draw attention to it.  I noticed it at the time as a "What a positively bizarre thing to say to your mother-in-law, nothing ass awkward about mentioning how many times you're fucking....what the hell?"  detail, but since I knew Robb and Jeyne were going to die I thought it was because ..."Oh well, at least we're being given the consolation that they had a bunch of very enthusiastic sex before dying at 16.  That's some ....comfort?  At least."  

But that was when I thought they were both goners.  So I admit, in retrospect it just goes back to "Well, that clearly has meaning and is absolutely bizarre to mention....what the hell?" 

 

ETA:  Oh my goodness, season five detail

they had Margaery tell Cersei almost the same thing in season five.  I have no idea what that means, but they gave Jeyne's line to ....Margaery??? That can't mean anything good, but hopefully they just wanted to get one of the stranger things ever said in the books, into the show.

Edited October 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

I mean with Stannis, it seems like they didn't get him, but with Cersei it seems more like they wanted to intentionally soften her for a more balanced Cersei.

And while yes, she's more relatable, she also has less agency and it misses that Cersei is a deconstruction of the evil Queen.

Intentionally softening her kinda messes with other characters, but that's besides the point. My point was mostly that whatever the reason they changed her in the show, I don't think it was with the concept of misogyny-- or avoiding it in any way--anywhere near their minds. BUT again, I will hold my tongue lest I derail this thread into opinions on them rather than the story they're telling/how they're telling it.

 

My words to shimpy as far as not seeing how people can think the marriage wasn't a setup from the very start: just remember that a sometimes people here have the opinions they have because they have information you don't yet. Sooooo sometimes opinions and theories will make pretty much no sense to you lol. As proof--without knowledge of what Jaime is like later on, the idea that anyone would like him is kinda gag-worthy lol

 

ETA: I hope that isn't a spoiler-y thing to say. I thought not since it's just a reminder of something that seems obvious given the nature of the thread

Edited October 29, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Haleth]

I'd like to think Jeyne was completely innocent, loved Robb, and truly thought she'd be pregnant before he left her. Her parents are slimy but it she seems to be a sweet girl.

[Avaleigh]

Oh hell, Shimpy, that never even occurred to me regarding (character name under spoiler tags)

Margaery

getting that line.

[Reader of Books]

I don't think Jayne W was entirely in on it. I can accept that she was duped into doing it. The riding out 3 times to me said she had worked out that at the very least something bad was going to happen and being with Robb would be a safer option. I don't think that absolves her, I just think it is conceivable she was either a tool or let herself be a tool.

 

The pardon could easily be because it was part of the deal established by her parents. They 'sold her virtue' in exchange for an increase in prestige in the eyes of the Lannisters.

 

--------

 

On another matter, I just had cause to be reacquainted with Herodotus - it has been years since I read it.

 

A couple of things shone like beacons - events in Herodotus's works that GRRM then incorporated into ASoIaF. Much effort has been put into making comparisons between GRRM's work and Western history, specifically English and Scottish history - especially about Guest Right but man there is some Gold here!

 

The Assyrians were overthrown by the Medes. The Medes were people formerly from the Eurasian steppe who had settled the Iranian plateau. After they took over, they had numerous steppe nomad horse archers in their army. The king of the Medes caused offense to some of them so they repaid him by cooking his son up and serving him to the King at the next feast.

 

Later the King of the Medes had some ill omens and was determined that his infant grandson needed to be killed. He ordered one of his generals to do it but he instead gave the infant to a peasant family. Years later the King found out the boy was alive and had him brought to court. The King told the general he found out and celebrated called a feast and asked the general to have his son play with the grandson. The King served the general's son to his parents at the feast. Shortly after the next wave of nomads from the steppe rolled through and conquered the Medes: the Persians.

 

The parallels with Brans story about the pie and guest right and events in ASoIaF are pretty clear.

 

Also, the Medes destruction of the Assyrian civilisation was total. 200 years later a Greek general Xenophon was travelling through the region and came across an enormous city with walls 18 miles in length. The city wasn't very old but it was abandoned. The local people had no recollection of who built it (the Assyrians) and it was attributed to the Medes. To me this would appear to have been recreated by GRRM as the ghost city Dany found.

 

(shimpy-free zone) 

On the guest right thing. Most interesting of all is the fact it was a double story with two instances of people getting cooked up. This is matched as a device in ASoIaF by Bran's telling and then the Frey Pie incident.

 

It is pretty clear that the focus on looking at western European history for parallels is limited (and been done to death) while there is a wealth of other sources from the east that can be examined.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Reader of Books

[magdalene]

I always liked that Jaime sees good ol' Joffers as the loathsome shit he was and that he doesn't pretend paternal affection he doesn't feel. If only he saw Cersei as clear-eyed.  

In AFFC he does form a nice relationship with little Tommen and tries to protect him.

Jaime is actually not a vicious person and tries to be fair minded even with his enemies. 

 

I love the good-bye scene with Brienne. It has a romantic air about it. I can totally see why some folks in fandom ship those two fiercely. 

[Ashara Payne]

I seem to remember D&D saying that they chose Lena Headey because she brought something extra to the character that none of the other actresses they auditioned did; mostly that they found her funny, I think. But that goes nowhere towards explaining why they changed so much of her behaviour.

As for switching around lines, etc., that happens a lot, although the only other example I can think of off the top of my head is when Arya escapes Harrenhal, she drops a coin on the ground for a soldier, then stabs him as he's picking it up. On the show she did this after the RW with The Hound. There are other examples that escape me right now.

[Reader of Books]

As for switching around lines, etc., that happens a lot, ... There are other examples that escape me right now.

 

The swapping of who does and who doesn't want Ned to go to KL between Ned and Cat.

[stillshimpy]

The swapping of who does and who doesn't want Ned to go to KL between Ned and Cat.

 

Maybe, but that actually does something significant to the plot in that instance, whereas with Arya, it's swapping out when Arya does something. 

 

I think swapping the Ned and Cat thing was because it's so lopsidedly Catelyn's fault in so much that follows, they were trying to balance out the narrative. 

 

But at the moment I can figure out how that might add balance to the tale and that is something that I'm going to have to wait to see.  

 

 

 

I hope that isn't a spoiler-y thing to say.

 

It isn't , but in those cases maybe it would be best to just regard the question as rhetorical?  I mean, clearly if all of you are saying, "Nope, no one thinks Jeyne was part of the plot."  then there's still more I don't know.  I assumed it was because she was dead, but pardoned and with her maiden name?  WTF?  It better be a doozy of a reason when it finally shows up.   

I also just have tendency to be a highly reactive person, so I do get why people would answer a repeatedly stated question and I'll try to watch that in the future.  I'm sorry.  Seriously.  I get why you'd answer when I'm over there saying "WTF?" a zillion times. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Reader of Books]

Maybe, but that actually does something significant to the plot in that instance, whereas with Arya, it's swapping out when Arya does something. 

 

I think swapping the Ned and Cat thing was because it's so lopsidedly Catelyn's fault in so much that follows, they were trying to balance out the narrative. 

 

Oh for sure - in both cases they significantly alter our perception of the character. Show Arya's coin incident is the moment a light switch has been flipped in terms of personality. However the Cat/Ned change when viewed from later events establishes it as one of a series of decisions Cat makes that butterfly-effects its way into becoming an overwhelming driver for the entire story.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Dev F]

I seem to remember D&D saying that they chose Lena Headey because she brought something extra to the character that none of the other actresses they auditioned did; mostly that they found her funny, I think. But that goes nowhere towards explaining why they changed so much of her behaviour.

 

I think I've mentioned this before, but I assume it's because the character as portrayed in the books would not be that interesting for an actress to play. Lena Heady's icy vulnerability gave them something to play with that worked better on screen, so they went with it. I don't feel the need to read more into their decision than that -- but that's probably because I find show!Cersei to be one of the most fascinating characters in the series, so complaining because she's different from book!Cersei feels like scorekeeping rather than persuasive criticism. But those who are more attached to the original version of the character may feel differently.

 

It isn't , but in those cases maybe it would be best to just regard the question as rhetorical?  I mean, clearly if all of you are saying, "Nope, no one thinks Jeyne was part of the plot."  then there's still more I don't know.  I assumed it was because she was dead, but pardoned and with her maiden name?  WTF?  It better be a doozy of a reason when it finally shows up. 

 

I wouldn't read too much into the maiden name thing. I don't believe there's any indication in the books that queens consort take their husbands' names. It's Cersei Lannister rather than Cersei Baratheon, Elia Martell not Elia Targaryen, etc.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Dev F

[Alayne Stone]

FINALLY. We get to the fake Arya plot. Not that it is anything to be happy about. Poor Jeyne Poole, indeed.

 

I still don’t think Cersei is the stereotypical evil queen. I think she’s actually worse. And I would agree that she is a wonderful candidate for most misogynistic character in the series, which is quite ironic being that she’s a woman. But … more on that later.

 

I feel like the changes made to Cersei's character still has repercussions in a similar way to transplanting Sansa into Jeyne's storyline. It is far more difficult to take a relatively minor character (In Jeyne Poole's case) and make her sympathetic to the reader, just as it is far more difficult to create such an internalized misogynistic character in book Cersei's case and have her suffer such a heinously misogynistic punishment for adultery (among other things like regicide and trying to frame Marg) ... and again make her seem sympathetic ... and call into question these tools of "punishment" used on women in this world. And somehow ... GRRM managed to accomplish both things. The show clearly wasn't up to the task (at least where the Sansa/Jeyne Poole thing is concerned ... obviously Cersei's character has been developed so much to this point that it's all but moot by now.)

 

Shimpy, I don’t want to comment too much on the Jeyne plot because there are clearly still things that need to play out, but one explanation I might have for her keeping the name “Jeyne Westerling” is that this was something bestowed upon her by Tywin. Regardless if she was in on the plot or not, her mother clearly had a hand so that was probably part of the stipulation to assure that they were indeed still loyal to the Lannisters. On top of that … I can’t imagine he’d want her running around with the name “Jeyne Stark” because there is still the potential that Northerners would rally to her as Robb’s widowed Queen.

 

Good point on the whole maiden name thing, Dev. Now that I think about it, The Queen of Thorns is also called "Olenna Redwynne" not "Olenna Tyrell" ... Catelyn Stark is sometimes called Catelyn Tully. I'm sure there are more examples I can't think of at the moment.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[nksarmi]

I wonder shimpy - are you extra excited to read about Sansa in future books now that you know her plot isn't the same as the series?

[Reader of Books]

complaining because she's different from book!Cersei feels like scorekeeping 

 

Pointing out that the softening of Cersei by making her more sympathetic is not complaining nor it is merely scorekeepting. 

 

Making Cersei more sympathetic makes Sansa less sympathetic. I used to welcome the portrayal as I thought it was an artifact of seeing an actor in the character and that bringing a new angle to the portrayal - Dance's Tywin being similar. As the series progressed, however, the problems built up and it was clear those problems were not due to the acting, but are a result of how the characters developments have been directed.

[Lady S.]

Good point on the whole maiden name thing, Dev. Now that I think about it, The Queen of Thorns is also called "Olenna Redwynne" not "Olenna Tyrell" ... Catelyn Stark is sometimes called Catelyn Tully. I'm sure there are more examples I can't think of at the moment.

She's actually referred to as Olenna Tyrell in the books too, but then she's only a figurative Queen. Her granddaughter never has the name of any of the Baratheon kings she marries. (And I imagine Cersei would hate that her thread in the Unsullied Habitat was titled Cersei Baratheon.)

Jon thinks of Selyse with the Baratheon name, but she's the only one.

Most relevantly, Jeyne is always referred to as a Westerling in Catelyn's PoV. The name Jeyne Stark is never used when Robb was alive, so I don't really see any significance in its not being used after his death. 

 

As for poor Jeyne Poole, the interesting thing to me is that this plot was actually introduced in an earlier Jaime chapter,

“Is there word of Arya Stark?” Brienne leaned forward. “Lady Catelyn had feared that… is the girl still alive?”

“Oh, yes,” said the Lord of the Dreadfort.

“You have certain knowledge of that, my lord?”

Roose Bolton shrugged. “Arya Stark was lost for a time, it was true, but now she has been found. I mean to see her returned safely to the north.”

 

I doubt there were two fake Arya plots hatched, it's more likely Tywin had already offered Jeyne Poole as part of the reward for betraying Robb, a, um, stab at legitimacy even if Sansa was the perceived heiress. Which makes me wonder if this was Tywin's back-up plan from the start, in the entirely likely event that Tyrion was never accepted as Lord of Winterfell by the northmen. It could have been like sending Tyrion in the vanguard in that first battle. If he succeeds, that's a plus, a Lannister cadet branch might always be preferable to an uncertain ally like Roose, but if he was killed up there, that'd be no great loss, would it? I'm not really sure what was going on here, but I find it very interesting that "Arya Stark" was first brought up well before Sansa's escape.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lady S.

[Shanna Marie]

It's possible that Jeyne Westerling was in on the plot to snag herself a king and not in on the part where doing so would undermine Robb's alliances and end up getting him and all his people slaughtered. So from her perspective, it may have just been a pushy mother saying, "Here's your chance to be a queen, while he's here all weak and helpless. Now, go fuss over him and soothe his hurts and make him fall in love with you." Meanwhile, Mom may or may not have had something else in the works with Tywin.

 

As for telling her mother-in-law just how hard they were trying to have kids, I suspect that may have been a desperate effort to keep the marriage from being annulled. She had to have figured out that Cat wasn't happy at all about it and had to have learned (if she didn't know up front) that Robb was promised by treaty to one of the Freys. There might have been a chance that they would have pulled some kind of diplomatic thing to cancel out the marriage by using the fact that there was no baby on the way as "proof" that the marriage wasn't real. Jeyne's position became a lot more secure the moment she was pregnant. Even if some kind of annulment wasn't a possibility, she knew Cat didn't approve of the marriage, so she might have thought that an impending grandchild would make things better with her mother-in-law, so there was some pre-emptive "we're trying, really!"

[Lady S.]

Idk, I guess i didn't think much of the babymaking convo since Cat's the one who brought up the subject, and she didn't seem to feel the number of daily attempts was TMI. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lady S.

[WindyNights]

It's possible that Jeyne Westerling was in on the plot to snag herself a king and not in on the part where doing so would undermine Robb's alliances and end up getting him and all his people slaughtered. So from her perspective, it may have just been a pushy mother saying, "Here's your chance to be a queen, while he's here all weak and helpless. Now, go fuss over him and soothe his hurts and make him fall in love with you." Meanwhile, Mom may or may not have had something else in the works with Tywin.

As for telling her mother-in-law just how hard they were trying to have kids, I suspect that may have been a desperate effort to keep the marriage from being annulled. She had to have figured out that Cat wasn't happy at all about it and had to have learned (if she didn't know up front) that Robb was promised by treaty to one of the Freys. There might have been a chance that they would have pulled some kind of diplomatic thing to cancel out the marriage by using the fact that there was no baby on the way as "proof" that the marriage wasn't real. Jeyne's position became a lot more secure the moment she was pregnant. Even if some kind of annulment wasn't a possibility, she knew Cat didn't approve of the marriage, so she might have thought that an impending grandchild would make things better with her mother-in-law, so there was some pre-emptive "we're trying, really!"

What?

Jeyne

never got pregnant

Also Jeyne doesn't seem like the ambitious type. If anything it's probably what it seems. Jeyne was attracted to and felt pity for Robb and Robb wanted comfort with no Theon, Cat or Jon there. They slept together and then Sybell tried to take advantage of what happened here by sending a letter to Tywin and Tywin told her what to do like

keep Jeyne from conceiving

in return for her family not being destroyed and some rewards.

That's honestly the simplest and most probable answer.

[Reader of Books]

 They slept together and then Sybell tried to take advantage of what happened here by sending a letter to Tywin 

 

I'd go further and say that messages were being sent to Tywin throughout, especially after he first came in wounded. The exact details of a response would likely not have been immediate and most likely coalesced after Jayne showed an interest in Jon. A bit of gentle nudging to get Jayne to act on her feelings or at the very least allow the situation to happen by not keeping her supervised and the trap was set.

 

I just can't see how should have been fully part of the plan in any way. At the very most there might have been a bit of "Robb is clearly winning. Lannisters are done. If only there was *some* way we could possibly convince Robb of how loyal to his cause our House really is, because he is such a beautiful and noble King!" (said in her earshot)

[WindyNights]

I'd go further and say that messages were being sent to Tywin throughout, especially after he first came in wounded. The exact details of a response would likely not have been immediate and most likely coalesced after Jayne showed an interest in Jon. A bit of gentle nudging to get Jayne to act on her feelings or at the very least allow the situation to happen by not keeping her supervised and the trap was set.

I just can't see how should have been fully part of the plan in any way. At the very most there might have been a bit of "Robb is clearly winning. Lannisters are done. If only there was *some* way we could possibly convince Robb of how loyal to his cause our House really is, because he is such a beautiful and noble King!" (said in her earshot)

Impossible. Tywin was on the move when Robb was wounded at the Crag and when he married Jeyne.

They could only really have corresponded after the Blackwater and after Robb and Jeyne were married.

[Reader of Books]

Impossible. Tywin was on the move when Robb was wounded at the Crag and when he married Jeyne.

They could only really have corresponded after the Blackwater and after Robb and Jeyne were married.

Ahhh quite right - well that only makes Jayne look more innocent. The parents took the opportunity later to double-deal.

[vibeology]

That's how I've always seen it too. Sybil Spicer is supposed to be an ambitious person. She used the money her family made as merchants to wed into a more important family and then when the guy who was winning the war showed up she saw it as a chance to have her daughter take another huge step up. When things started to turn, she turned too to keep her family in the best spot.

We know Ravens can only travel to fixed locations and Tywin was on the move during the attack on the Crag, so he couldn't be involved in getting Jeyne in bed with Robb. Anything that happened once he was in King's Landing sure, but Tywin couldn't have set Robb up. That was just an ambitious family who saw the chance to marry their daughter to the King who was winning the war.

[stillshimpy]

We know Ravens can only travel to fixed locations and Tywin was on the move during the attack on the Crag, so he couldn't be involved in getting Jeyne in bed with Robb. Anything that happened once he was in King's Landing sure, but Tywin couldn't have set Robb up. That was just an ambitious family who saw the chance to marry their daughter to the King who was winning the war.

 

So that's why everyone is so convinced that Tywin was not involved?  The timeline isn't particularly clear in the books. but if that is what you guys have put together, then okay, there would be no way for Tywin to be actively involved until afterward.  

 

Here's the problem with thinking that Lady Spicer thought "Aha, oh ho, snag ourselves a King, Robb Stark is winning the war (more on that in a moment) ...."  he was pledged to marry someone else from a powerful family with thousands of troops that came with that alliance.  It wouldn't be unknown.  Any woman savvy enough to parlay her made-in-trade money into a marriage to a titled person, with aspirations to climb higher, should understand what that means.

 

So about this "Queens don't take their husbands names" -- Robb wasn't a king Tywin would recognize.  Women do take the name of the house they marry.   Unless Tywin was annulling the marriage and if he had any reason to hope she was pregnant he'd be a fool to do so, because you know what's better than a virginal Sansa Stark as the Lady of Winterfell and the surviving heir?  An actual Lady Stark, who Tywin could marry off to whomever he chose after ascertaining whether or not she'd produced a son that could be fully under his control.  If Jeyne was pregnant, it would hand Tywin a Stark heir (in the form of Jeyne or her child) that would take precedence over Sansa. 

 

I am going to wait and see, but at present, that's something the story needs to correct in the future in some fashion -- and you all are making it clear that it must -- because right now?  It looks terrible.  I'm assuming that someone pointed that out to George R. R. Martin in between books and since you're spoiler tagging a bunch of stuff about Jeyne, there's clearly more to come on that.  

 

So at present that's going to be my conclusion:  you guys can't unknow things, so I completely get it.  But I'm telling  you, that passage looked terrible (and I mean just flat out terrible) for the Westerlings and Jeyne.  It's literally done in connection with the Freys, in freaking order, making them look uber, ultra, super guilty and absolutely connected. 

 

That he corrects that impression at some point in the future is pretty clear.  

Edited October 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Shimpy is almost at the end of the book.  It should be coming any time now.  3...2...1...  (Of course I'm talking about Stoneheart.)

[Delta1212]

I honestly don't remember whether he does do anything to correct it because I never thought Jeyne was in on it so if anything ever came along to reinforce that opinion it wouldn't have stood out quite so much as a "Oh wow, she was innocent after all" moment. Also, the "Westerling conspiracy" was never really one of my areas of particular interest so I'm less familiar with the theories and evidence for them than with some other subjects.

Anyway, I pretty much always took the "Jeyne Westerling" thing in the pardon as part of an agreement between Tywin and Jeyne's parents to effectively undo the marriage. He's got his own plans for the North and I don't think a pregnant Jeyne is as advantageous as a fake Arya. For one, he's got Roose Bolton as an ally in the North, and a legitimate Stark heir undermine's Bolton's position. Without Bolton, and without Tyrion to set up a branch of the Lannister family in the North, Tywin has no real proxy to keep things under control there. Then there's the fact that if he let's the Stark baby grow up, there's a no small risk of some revenge there.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that the family has been assuring Tywin that Jeyne is not pregnant, rendering that point moot.

The best outcome for both sides would be if Jeyne was removed from that marriage entirely, both so Tywin doesn't have as much risk of others mucking up his own plans for the North (After all, "she renounced her Stark name and was pardoned at the same time as the Freys. She must have been in on it" so no one is likely to try rallying around Robb's Queen if they'd have been so inclined otherwise) and the Westerlings get to remove a lingering tie to a failed rebellion in their daughter's name.

I can't really take the name thing as evidence either for or against Jeyne's guilt because either way, I think that was something that was brokered way above her head with little or no input from her.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, if there's nothing more to come about Jeyne then my objection is going to stand: that looks terrible.  It's literally the pardon issued after legitimizing Ramsay, issuing the Freys lands -- Jaime has a bunch of thoughts -- next piece of business for the new King to put his childish signature upon?  Royal pardons for all things Westerling, but the entire chapters starts up by stripping Edmure Tully of his lands and title for rebelling against his rightful king. 

Edited to add: On a much lighter note, you know that sound you make when you see someone get kicked in the cajones or punched in the stomach? That kind of involuntary drawing in of breath through clenched teeth. The backwards his of "oof" empathy? Yeah, that's the sound I made over the "and you are granted Castamere" family.

At least something sucks more than being given Harren-Cursed-Hot-Potato-Hall. Isn't like being given "You are hereby put on notice of a possible ass-kicking. Enjoy your new home. And the sound the Halls make when it rains. Mwhahaha."

 

I have actually talked about this with Mya and do understand that Ned, Catelyn, Robb, etc.  aren't going to quite as interesting to fans as they are to me, because in fandom they have been dead for a really long time. 

 

So on that subject, here's something concerning season five

So I am on really heated record as despising the Sansa-marries-Ramsay plot.  I just hate it.  but

 

 

quote --- Anyway, I pretty much always took the "Jeyne Westerling" thing in the pardon as part of an agreement between Tywin and Jeyne's parents to effectively undo the marriage. He's got his own plans for the North and I don't think a pregnant Jeyne is as advantageous as a fake Arya. --- quote

 

Yeah, here's the problem:  Fake Arya can't even get out of King's Landing without being spotted for a fraud by anyone who knew Arya Stark , or the Starks, by sight.   The one thing I will give the show is that by making it Sansa they solved a problem that Fake Arya is going to pretty obviously run into face first: Ancient bloodlines carry with them known traits in appearance.  "The North Remembers" eh? 

 

Now admittedly, that line ended up making NO sense when it was Ramsay married to Sansa, but Ramsay married to imposter Stark?  Now I get the import of that darned line.  Because the one description of Arya Stark has been, repeatedly, she looked like Lyanna Stark.  She looked like Ned.  She looked like Jon.

 

That's another one where I will have to see if it is going where I think it is, but at present it sure felt like a bunch of puzzle pieces clicking together very swiftly.  

 

Season five

"The North Remembers" is almost a freaking insult because it's useless.  All it does is get an old lady skinned. It was infuriating as an inclusion.  Revelation that Ramsay is married to a faux Stark? "All it does is get an old lady skinned" becomes "Oh shit, The North Remembers....The Starks.  Motherfucker, Show  

Edited to change quote tags that were screwing up my spoiler tagging.

Edited October 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

shimpy - I think there are still a few details coming for the Westerlings in the next book, but I'm not 100% certain.  For book readers to confirm:

 

In one of Jamie's Riverland PoVs, doesn't he have a talk with momma Westerling where she reveals that she was giving her daughter "abortion" tea against her will? And I also want to say that Jamie makes it clear that Jeyne can't marry for two years so that no child could be considered Robb Stark's heir right? He - at least - wanted to prevent giving the North a legitimate heir to rally around.

 

Also regarding your season five spoilers, that line you mentioned will make SO much more sense in the books.  The story in the North (so far) is much more detailed, interesting, layered, and enjoyable in the books.

Edited October 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[Triskan]

Everyone talking about Jeyne and Robb's arc, and I'm just here, waiting for shimpy's thoughts on the remaining of the Wall story arc... ^^

[nksarmi]

Everyone talking about Jeyne and Robb's arc, and I'm just here, waiting for shimpy's thoughts on the remaining of the Wall story arc... ^^

And the epilogue!!!!

[nksarmi]

X

Edited October 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

nksarmi, you know there's something I should probably clarify here: When I say "I think Jeyne had to be in on it all" , I am not saying she was complicit in the plot of really just incredibly sinister proportions.

What I'm saying is she had to be acting under some kind of directive at least initially. "Go, take care of him. Comfort him. In that 'remove your undergarments" way." Again, a woman's virginity in the marriage game was a freaking commodity. There's no way Robb Stark was forcing that issue, or likely taking it very far on his own initiative. He'd have to be encouraged to do so.

So complicity on Jeyne's part doesn't mean "She drew up the seating arrangements for the Red Wedding"....I'm just saying that I think she had to have been told, "You are to go and do this. Drink this. Keep him happy. Very happy." but that she's supposed to be the same age as Robb, right? So a really nice young man, who is supposed to very good-looking ....Sansa Stark can barely keep herself from falling in love with actual suits of armor before she learns some very hard life lessons...what are the chances that Jeyne takes less than a centimeter's worth of encouragement to actually fall for him?

It would be so easy for Jeyne to start out acting under a directive, not knowing why, but just doing it because she it told do so and he's cute. Then it turns out he's more than cute. He's really kind. He's actually taken a giant hit to the perception of his honor to protect yours.

Anyone who is not a sociopath would start to have feelings, really serious feelings even, about that person.

So I think Jeyne had to be in on the "this is a ploy" of it all, but that's not the same thing as knowing that it was a plot and that when Robb leaves, part of the reason she keeps trying to go with him is that she knows she isn't going to see him again, not necessarily because of "I know you are headed towards Murder Most Foul" , but because she knows that she was told to get together with him in the first place in a way that included dropping what passed for trou.

Now, I do think her parents pretty much had to be in on the "he's not coming back from this" end of it.

But again,the chapter opens with Edmure Tully being stripped of his lands for rebelling against his rightful King, there would be a reason that the Westerlings were welcomed back to the King's peace...and it further tripped me out that the story goes out of its way to add the "remember Castamere?" by having that place assigned to someone, so it just made it really stand out to me.

"So....that's weird. Tywin Lannister is NOT forgiving. He's a baby skull smashing, Rains of Castamere son of a bitch if you cross him."

The Freys and the Boltons are forgiven for rebelling against their rightful King ....and we know we know why. The Westerlings are forgiven in the same chapter. I suspect there's a reason why. I am also truly getting that the rest of fandom is not in agreement. In which case, rockin'! I stand alone on that Isle o' Mule, digging in heels and saying "That doesn't look right, as it stands. Opinion will only change if different fact set is presented to me."

ETA: Yeah, I put down the book at the start of the Jon chapter and figured I would just discuss the hell out of everything else that caught my eye and attention first, because ....I have a feeling I am about to go over a damned cliff here. In the series, this is the point where Stannis shows up.

Jaime has noted that Stannis only has a token fleet around Dragonstone.

I know from the series that big shit is about to go down (we're yelling Timber!) and I also know from the series that it had a tendency not to convey the scope of the big shit. Well, in the series, Stannis almost popping out of the tree roots to save the day was one thing they did so well.

Seriously, that was an awesome moment. So I put down the book, clearing my mental palate because...this ought to be good. And that is the stuff I'll be reading this weekend.

But in case you guys haven't noticed, I am the human equivalent of a terrier, and not one of those little tiny Yorkie or Silkies. The "We stick you into holes, face first to fight badgers" type of terriers. I'm a little tenacious about things, would be my point.

Edited October 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[chandraReborn]

The whole thing with Jeyne Westerling 

as we learn in AFFC, is that she really did love Robb and fights back when her mom tries to take away the crown he gave her and defies her mother to rip her clothes in mourning and is heartbroken about the abortion tea her mom gave her. It's really sad.

[Delta1212]

Oh, no, I think the only way for anyone associated with Robb to avoid getting Tywin'd at this point is if they helped set up the Red Wedding in some way, I just never suspected Jeyne of being in on it.

But if you're defining "in on it" as her mom going to her and saying "Hey, how about the young king. Isn't he cute? Why don't you go attend to his injuries. Know what I mean? nudge nudge wink wink, say no more" then yeah, I could see that happening.

@chandra

Yeah, I don't really remember that at all. But then, I didn't even realize who Jaime was talking to when I first read the book.

Like I said, the Westerlings just weren't something I ever paid all that much attention to on my first read through and I'm only sort of vaguely aware of the specs surrounding them.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Delta1212

[nksarmi]

The whole thing with Jeyne Westerling 

as we learn in AFFC, is that she really did love Robb and fights back when her mom tries to take away the crown he gave her and defies her mother to rip her clothes in mourning and is heartbroken about the abortion tea her mom gave her. It's really sad.

That's what I thought was coming because I knew there was a reason I felt the way I did about those people, but I just wasn't sure when we saw it.

[Delta1212]

nksarmi,

I really think some of your comments should be behind spoiler tags. We probably shouldn't be explicitly saying whether things are coming up. And I think people have been a bit too loose with pointing out the epilogue/end of the book as being a big deal. I'm excited too, but I think it'll be better if shimpy has no idea anything big is coming at all.

[mac123x]

nksarmi, you know there's something I should probably clarify here: When I say "I think Jeyne had to be in on it all" , I am not saying she was complicit in the plot of really just incredibly sinister proportions.

What I'm saying is she had to be acting under some kind of directive at least initially. "Go, take care of him. Comfort him. In that 'remove your undergarments" way." Again, a woman's virginity in the marriage game was a freaking commodity. There's no way Robb Stark was forcing that issue, or likely taking it very far on his own initiative. He'd have to be encouraged to do so.

 

Thank you for that clarification, I agree that Jeyne was probably prompted into "comforting" Robb.  As to why Sybell thought it was a good move is anyone's guess.  The way she's been described, she seems like a wealthy parvenu who married a landed but poor aristocrat as a way to climb the social ladder.  Maybe she saw this as an opportunity to climb higher by snaring this King in the North who (at the time) was winning. 

 

You're right, it does seem an awfully big risk to play Jeyne's V-card on the chance that Robb isn't a love-'em-and-leave-'em guy like his namesake.

 

The "Jeyne Westerling" vs "Jeyne Stark" on the pardon:  I guess I never noticed it because they seem to play fast and loose with which family name a woman is referenced by.  Cat is sometimes referred to as a Stark and other times referred to as a Tully, based on the context of the conversation.  Jeyne's mother is usually referred to as a Spicer (probably to emphasize her parvenu status because a lot of the characters look down on up-jumped merchants)

 

On a much lighter note, you know that sound you make when you see someone get kicked in the cajones or punched in the stomach? That kind of involuntary drawing in of breath through clenched teeth. The backwards his of "oof" empathy? Yeah, that's the sound I made over the "and you are granted Castamere" family.

At least something sucks more than being given Harren-Cursed-Hot-Potato-Hall. Isn't like being given "You are hereby put on notice of a possible ass-kicking. Enjoy your new home. And the sound the Halls make when it rains. Mwhahaha."

 

That was Rolph Spicer, brother of Sybell.  "Here's your reward, a castle that's been an abandoned ruin for a couple of decades after Tywin annihilated an entire family line.  A real fixer-upper.  Be sure to sing the song at every feast!"

[Shanna Marie]

So complicity on Jeyne's part doesn't mean "She drew up the seating arrangements for the Red Wedding"....I'm just saying that I think she had to have been told, "You are to go and do this. Drink this. Keep him happy. Very happy."

Yeah, that's about as far as I can see Jeyne being complicit -- knowing she was being shoved in the direction of a wealthy, powerful young man whose star was on the rise, and if she played her cards right, she could end up as a king. And then when she met him and learned he was cute and nice, then, hey, it's a dirty job ...

 

Her mother may or may not have actually had anything to do with everything that came out of it, maybe just was scrambling to capitalize on what happened. So maybe at the start it was about making her daughter a queen, then later thinking it would be better to find a way to stay on Tywin's good side. I don't know. I just know I didn't put that much thought into it when I read the book. I guess I've known so many mothers pushing their daughters toward guys who'll raise their social status that it didn't occur to me to think there might be something even more sinister going on. I did read her telling Cat about their trying to have a baby as trying to get on her new mother-in-law's good side because she had to have figured out that Cat had kittens (sorry, couldn't resist) when she learned about the marriage. It was like "we're trying so hard, you could say I'm almost pregnant, really!"