Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Mya Stone]

Hi all! stillshimpy has made the great climb and is joining our reader ranks. I've offered her (and any other Unsullied who may decide to join her) a safe place to discuss the books over here. It doesn't mean you can't interact with them! By all means, do. I, myself, will be starting a reread of my own. Feel free to join in the discussion (with no spoilers past where they've read).

Just don't spoil things to come, or lead them on, etc. You know the drill by now. :)

ETA: ANYTHING DISCUSSED PAST WHERE SHIMPY IS IN HER READ NEEDS SPOILER TAGS. I repeat, ANYTHING DISCUSSED PAST WHERE SHIMPY IS IN HER READ NEEDS SPOILER TAGS.

ETA2: PLEASE SPOILER TAG ANYTHING FROM SEASON 5 AND BEYOND. THANKS!

ETA3: We're taking things in a little bit different direction now, and starting a show rewatch in this thread. I'll update the title with the current season in rewatch! :)

[stillshimpy]

Okay, well for now, I think I'm you're only recruit :-)  We'll see. I'll be back with whatever thoughts I have pretty soon.  I start reading tonight.  

 

For anyone that wonders: I caught a headline about something and it was the thing I couldn't Unsee and I couldn't see a way around it altering every perception I had. So in the end, that which cannot be Unseen got me :-) 

 

Thanks, Mods :-) 

Edited June 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I won't be a jerk and I will be able to control myself--I'd love to be able to comment from time to time, I promise I won't spoil anything.

[chandraReborn]

I'm so exited to read these! I've been following you guys for years and I love seeing your opinions!

[Delta1212]

Okay, well for now, I think I'm you're only recruit :-) We'll see. I'll be back with whatever thoughts I have pretty soon. I start reading tonight.

For anyone that wonders: I caught a headline about something and it was the thing I couldn't Unsee and I couldn't see a way around it altering every perception I had. So in the end, that which cannot be Unseen got me :-)

Thanks, Mods :-)

Now I'm terribly curious what the headline was.

Very glad not to be losing you altogether, though.

[stillshimpy]

I posted what it was about in the Stannis thread, Delta. 

 

Wow, so first of all, I'm up to Jon's chapter in the first book.  Nothing like e-books for immediacy, I suppose :-)  I was mainly surprised by how lyrical some of the language Martin uses is.  I wasn't expecting that.  After five years of really gritty, dour and grim story-telling choices, I was so surprised by his choice of phrasing.  It's so pretty on occasion.  "Soft as sin"...it's so descriptive and conjures texture easily.  He's still discussing brutal goings on, but Martin seems as likely to use elegant wording as blunt.  Nice balance.  

 

The Others are the White Walkers, I take it?  The description of their armor was stunning and thank goodness it turns out they actually speak.  I'm so used to thinking of that men from the first watch in the "First to Die" etc.  down to sole survivor and it really struck me that it wasn't the young recruit who deserted.  

The series made some choices to simplify things that I'm not understanding as choices thus far.   Plus, right now I'm thoroughly baffled by the actor's choices.   I've always been a fan of Ned's, but it did trouble me that he seemed to be nearly a moron on the show.  Plus, he was glad that Robert wanted to go to the crypt, so they changed that entirely and Sean Bean's performance choices don't match at all with what I was just reading.   That almost constant "I ate something that disagreed with me" style, particularly when dealing with Robert.   Sean Bean played all of that in an entirely different manner.  

 

It doesn't seem as if there should be more emotional clarity, almost right off the bat, from words on a page vs. depictions on a screen.  But someone like Viserys came off as pompous and ridiculous in the series.  In the books he already simply seems mad, vs. worthy of derision.   

 

Speaking of clarity:  Five freaking years and the show never managed to make clear what the hell had happened surrounding the rebellion and how in the world two Targaryens escaped.   It took the book three sentences to clear up five years of questions.  

 

Also, what the hell?  The differences in the depiction of Kahl Drogo on the screen and what I just read are really startling.  

 

I'm going to have to keep reading before I know what to make of the differences, but they are pretty (forgive me) Stark.  I recognize the characters, but already I think I'm going to be less frustrated by them.   

 

I'm glad I waited this long to read though.  For the last couple of years I'd wondered if the only reason I liked Robert was that Mark Addy had played him, but thus far I'm finding that Addy's choices seem to be the closest to what was on the page.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I did a quick read through to catch myself up to where you are, just so I can comment a bit on the adaptation without "spoiling" things you haven't read yet.

If any of this kind of thing is stuff you still don't want to hear for any reason, just let me know, but I'll be restricting myself to opinions and production notes on things you've already both seen and read, so it should be relatively "safe" from that perspective.

I think dropping the use of the Others as a name is largely because Lost already snapped that label up for TV, so they went with an available alternative (Although in retrospect, I think there might have been less confusion about the distinction between the wights and the White Walkers if they had been the wights and the Others. Perhaps not, though).

I think the prologue is one of the better bits of adaptation in the first season. Other parts (that's "other parts" rather than "Other parts" by the way) are definitely more faithful, but as much as I like the book prologue, I think the mini-horror movie on the show works better on screen.

As far as backstory goes, I think these first couple chapters illustrate a running (and understandable) pattern of the books often being a bit more explicit about what happened in the past than the show (it would have been out of place for Dany to give a monologue about her flight from Dragonstone in the first episode, although I suppose they could have worked it in *somewhere*) where the show tends to be a bit more explicit about what's going on in the present than the books often are (again understandable since Bran is too young to really have the context to understand what is going on at the execution whereas the show can't really obscure things behind a specific POV).

As far as character portrayals, I think it's a bit early to comment too extensively, but I agree that even if Mark Addy doesn't have the height of Robert from the books, he really nailed his personality. Definitely one of the better portrayals in a show that is full of them.

For my own part, re-reading this now for the first time in years, I forgot just how much dialogue is lifted straight off the page, often long chunks taken word for word. Even going as far as repurposing things like Ned's "He won't be a boy forever. And winter is coming" response to Rickon being afraid of his direwolf as a commentary on Bran coming to the execution on the show. They really mined a lot of material here.

And interesting note, they actually reshot the premiere from an apparently even more faithful version because it was a little too confusing and they needed to rework a lot of character introductions and exposition so that the audience would understand that e.g. Jaime and Cersei were siblings (plus some recasting that they did of a couple of characters). If you rewatch the first episode, you can actually tell which parts were taken from the original pilot because Ned's hair looks dirtier and more slicked back and the boys are all clean-shaven.

[stillshimpy]

I think the prologue is one of the better bits of adaptation in the first season. Other parts (that's "other parts" rather than "Other parts" by the way) are definitely more faithful, but as much as I like the book prologue, I think the mini-horror movie on the show works better on screen.

 

Absolutely.  Although the description on the White Walkers/Others' armor  (okay, the Lost connection makes sense, now that you mention it) was amazing -- it would be a case of "And here's your assignment.  Good luck to you on it.  You might want to bypass the stages of denial and start binge drinking now, in anticipation of your looming unemployment....youi'd need a wizard"  and it was interesting to find out that the young lord wasn't an ass, just young, they shorthanded that incredibly well.  Nothing says creeptastic like dead kids, after all.  

Plus without benefit of Will's (the artist formerly known in my head as Sole Survivor) inner-monologue ,  they kind of need to make it more immediately accessible.  Which they did, because that damned scene still scares the pee out of me, so....well done. 

Here's the one thing I'd appreciate not knowing, because I'm keeping a running tally in my head (and apparently here, welcome to my head, guys) of who I think read the books prior to acting in the role and who didn't.  

 

Without even a shadow of a doubt, I'd say Kit Harrington absolutely must have.  Whereas Jon on the page already had more inherent dignity than the Jon of the first season's screen (I read Jon's chapter and Catelyn's next chapter....man POV is everything in this story and clearly meant to be) since last night) , I think he was at least a little hobbled in that he's playing the emotions appropriate to really young teen and fitting to Jon's circumstances.   So I'd swear that Kit Harrington read a book to prepare. 

 

I'd say Peter Dinklage must have also.  Tyrion's introduction on the show, vs. the book doesn't invite you to dismiss him as easily as Dinklage's "enter stage left, thrusting" type of intro.  

 

I know I'm in the "Oh and from here on out, things start going spectacularly to shit" stages of this which is kind of the reason I'm trying to make up my mind early to see how often I change it.  

Man, I'd say Sean Bean didn't read the book which I'm not certain about, but his choices with that scene in the crypt are almost the opposite of Ned's inner thoughts.  I don't know enough about Sean Bean's acting methods to know whether he's someone who would prepare like...whoa...and read everything available, or if he'd want to put his own stamp on it.  Juxtaposing Ned on the page to Ned on the screen, I'm fifty-fifty so far.   Please don't tell me one way or the other.   Reading this stuff now is about the only way I have of sort of experiencing the characters for the first time...again.   Having achieved that irony, I'd like to hold onto it for a bit longer. 

 

Addy I'd say, without question, read the source material.  He nailed the hell out of it and compensated for not looking a thing like he's supposed to.   I'm pretty aware that there are a lot of "Hey, was this based on the Wars of the Roses (Lancaster/York) leading into Tudor history..." and I've read a fair amount of the history for that period and I'm here to tell you, if Robert wasn't taken almost entirely from Edward IV, I'd be really surprised...which it would then follow that Stannis was actually modeled on Richard III ...which would actually fit with the Yorkist take on Richard III vs. the Shakespearean.  

Michelle Fairley I can't tell yet from the page, but she's a stage actor and they tend to read the fuck out of source material.  This isn't a value judgement, by the way, it's just stage actors are a lot more interested in faithful reproduction of source material, unlike film actors who have a tendency to believe that their interpretation is key to creating a memorable role.  Stage actors like to embody that which exists, film actors are more into creating from the page.  

I could be dead fucking wrong there, but man do I ever have a proven track record of that anyway.  

Which, since I'm the only one in here at present, let me just say this:  I am so damned aware that I'm going to end up being mortified by how far wrong I was and have been.  So let's just take it as read, "I wonder if she's just freaking embarrassed that she thought X...Y....Z"  uh....yeah, on more than one occasion.  I was just telling Mya that liking Littlefinger in the first season was down to loving the actor and ....(mortification stations alert) thinking he's cute) . Oops.  

 

And interesting note, they actually reshot the premiere from an apparently even more faithful version because it was a little too confusing and they needed to rework a lot of character introductions and exposition so that the audience would understand that e.g. Jaime and Cersei were siblings (plus some recasting that they did of a couple of characters). If you rewatch the first episode, you can actually tell which parts were taken from the original pilot because Ned's hair looks dirtier and more slicked back and the boys are all clean-shaven.

 

It feels like they robbed from Peter to pay Paul though.  They were so concerned that someone might not get "Catelyn, she doesn't so much like Jon..." that they had Fairley deliver the mother of all "if looks could kill" gazes.  It has all the subtlety of Wile E. Coyote in the coup planning stages and it makes Catelyn look like psycho without some better background.  

 

Which....you know what would have also helped with my perception of Jon Snow?  Knowing that a) he was actually at the banquet, just banished to a back table b) he's drunk for the first time in his life...which really would have helped with some of the more "Clonkity Bonkity, let us drive the point home.  Jon?  He's Earnest, you see.  Earnest , but Embittered from the lack of Maternal Love in his life...(While Michelle Fairley goes all Firestarter with the glances in the background".   

 

Okay, that's more than enough from me for now.  Sorry for the rambles, but I'm meeting all the AU versions right now. 

[Avaleigh]

The descriptions of the Others are indeed very different and they seem less monstrous looking than on the show. One thing I remember that chilled me was the way that the one kid thinks that it sounds like they're laughing at Royce. I got the impression that they see themselves as so superior.

 

I also thought there was a surprising amount of humor in a chapter that's pretty dark. Like when Royce is loudly talking to Will and then you realize that Will is acutally *hiding* and that Royce is totally screwing that up for him by being so loud. Or the older guy who is outranked by Royce but still seems like he's thinking about kicking the kid's ass for being so stubborn. Also, Will seeing the Others coming and trying to tell himself that maybe it's a bird or something. Lol, I thought the chapter was fun in its scariness. 

[stillshimpy]

I agree, Avaleigh, since there wasn't a screen-time-clock ticking in the background "How much screen time can we spend on this establishing material"  -- the scene on the page is better developed.  Plus, Martin let me like Royce a little bit while still inviting me to laugh at him for being a bit pretentious.  

 

Plus, I became kind of keenly aware of "oh...yup....you can feel the accounting department's role in the production" on all things scale.  The banquet, the King's procession.  The men of the Wall have always seemed like characters that escaped a particularly dire Dickens novel to me.  Or maybe Hardy.  Maybe the bastard offspring of Dickens and Hardy.  Just "there's no room for subtlety here, look gross, glower a bunch and act like you are a complete stranger to merriment...and Action!"   

It made Benjen (who....okay, so meeting Benjen on the page almost physically pained me, because I always liked Benjen, but loved him from jump on the page) sort of a baffling dude for me and it also has always, always made Jon seem like a wet blanket, killjoy.  He was all so "Team Crow! Castle Black!  My family is here!" and the way it's depicted on the show always made me think, "How freaking bad were the alternatives that this is your preferred reality?  Because that place?  Sucks, dude.  Sucks inside out with a dressing of bile and a sprinkle of acid.  It's a terrible fucking place" and at least Martin gives a sense of "but...they had fun....and it wasn't always just "It's like the General Population at the County lock up....with fewer showers and a wardrobe that practically has a smell onscreen" .  

 

On the whole Exposition on the Page vs the screen, yes absolutely.  But it took the show five years to tell me how the fuck Dany and Viserys ended up where they were and also?  They never did.  Tyrion told the "Let's ignore Viserys, shall we?  That's the best plan, after all...." version of Dany's pre-K care ...but to this moment, the show never saw fit to "Yup, her mom fled when Dany was embryo and then died while having her ....) which that last?  I really wish I'd known going into this season when trying to figure out "Now, why wouldn't Dany just kill Tryion outright?"  ....it's a point of empathy.  It also would have helped explain Dany's sheer desperation for a family of any description ("Just me and my happy horde....don't leave the alone with your daughters, oopsies!" ) .  

 

It's not like I could figure some of it out myself...but Brandon being strangled vs. burned also seems a really big ass deal to me.  I have a feeling I'm soon going to feel like "Oh, if you thought that was a big deal....just wait..." because the show did the worst job of telling me the order of how things happened.  Five years into it, I still had no idea what the hell started the All Important Rebellion or rather, the very key "What order did this shit happen in".   It does, however, affectively shorthand the "no really, it was sucking hard in the Kingdoms under Aerys".  

Edited June 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I am super interested to know what you make of book Littlefinger since you like the show version. 

 

What do you think of all of the age differences with the characters? Ned and Cat are both in their thirties in the books, it's crazy to me how young they really are. 

 

Yes, sometimes I feel like the showrunners take it for granted that the audience is going to pick up on certain things. I actually thought that it had been mentioned on the show that Viserys and Dany's mother had died giving birth to Dany but apparently not. Tyrion mentions his birth on the show recently and Cersei even brought it up to Jaime in the finale of last season. Cersei and Tywin have both thrown Tyrion killing Joanna in his face before so I agree that the way Viserys would torment Dany with her birth is something that would have been good to address on the show and could have been something that Dany and Tyrion might have bonded over. 

[Meredith Quill]

Welcome to the dark side Shimpy. *Scoots over*

[Last Time Lord]

What do you think of all of the age differences with the characters?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I've just started reading the books (got a Kindle eBook bundle. The five completed novels for $19.99)

I was shocked at how young all the Stark children were.

I also was a little surprised at how outright cruel Cat could be towards Jon. I thought in the show she could be cold to him at times, but she went beyond in the books.

I have heard from a friend of mine that has been reading this series for years that George has said in retrospect, he wishes he made the kids older because of everything they go through.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Last Time Lord

[Delta1212]

I do know (for the most part) who has and has not read the books, so I'm glad you mentioned that. I'll be sure to avoid the subject for as long as you don't want to know.

Caught myself up to you again: Definitely agree about the scale. The show does a remarkably good job for a TV show, but Martin has said that he was reacting against, among other things, his career as a TV writer where he frequently talks about his first draft of everything always having to be dramatically pared down for budgetary reasons. These books were meant to be his opportunity to unleash his imagination to build fantastic set pieces and have hundreds of characters without worrying about budget constraints or filmability.

And then, of course, they went and made a TV show out of it. And it's difficult to completely capture on film all the detail of something that a veteran of the industry specifically set out to make unfilmable.

I also agree that Jon (well, all the Stark kids, but I think it's definitely most obvious with Jon) are aged up physically in the show but often still wind up playing some character beats that fit a little better with slightly younger characters. Jon's initial dourness on the show is definitely more forgiveable for an angsty teenager when you're looking out from behind his shell, rather than an older version where you can't get inside his head as easily.

I could respond to a few more points, but I think I'll hold off until you actually get further into them, especially as regards the Watch.

[stillshimpy]

What do you think of all of the age differences with the characters? Ned and Cat are both in their thirties in the books, it's crazy to me how young they really are.

 

It's really disconcerting, because whereas I appreciate aging the bejeebers out of the kids...seriously, a thirteen-year-old Dany is just creeping me the hell out.  Sansa starts out this story as an 11-year-old?  Jon is only 13?? Dany thought she'd marry Viserys and the Targs did briefly conquer Dorne with a boy king.  All good to know.   

 

But knowing that Catelyn is in her mid-thirties and Ned is 35 is startling as hell.  It also makes some of Cat's stuff a lot more forgivable to me.   At least at present, we'll see how that holds up.  Most amusing note about Cat so far has been that she's freaky levels of superstitious, which I actually would not have guessed. 

 

I knew Tyrion's mother had died giving birth to him, Avaleigh  -- and this just won't make sense to a lot of people, but one again, wow is it nice to be able to discuss a story with my BSG friends again -- but on Dany, nope, if the show covered it it went flying right past me and I was listening pretty damned closely.   

 

So I guess what I should do is tell you guys the four things I ended up knowing that I'm not supposed to know.  I'll put them under spoiler tags, just in case anyone reading this gives a hang:  

 

Thanks to a facebook post from a friend that literally started with "That wasn't in the books!!! Fuck you GoT" and then later in the day a Huffpo article headlined with "Martin confirms Character death was his idea" (or something very much like that) I found out

fucking HBO killed Shireen, which if you ever want to experience blinding fury, try finding out that a story inflicted burning a child to death on your for grins and giggles

 Oh wait, most of you know exactly how that feels.  Also my FB friend was absolutely not out to get me.  He was just reacting to something upsetting.  

Also, in no particular order:  How the whole "how the hell do we handle unspoiled speculation?" gig started was when I guessed something as a joke and bookwalkers descended in droves to say "You got it! Well guessed!"  and it was such a simple thing I don't even need to spoiler it:  I guessed that no one actually knew who Jon Snow's mother was.  

 

That leads me to the next thing.  This season was particularly awful for being spoiled by headlines and pictures.  Weeks after the episode aired freaking buzzfeed

posted a picture of Jon Snow right next to the girl from the flashback in the first episode this season and kindly informed me that she was Lyanna Stark....about four weeks after the damned episode aired and for no damned reason I can name.

 On the upside I can now risk glancing at Buzzfeed again.  No, I don't know precisely what it means but thanks to some pretty spirited speculation over the years it's pretty damned obvious

Jon is Lyanna's kid, right?

 Good news, it's not  a screaming retcon after all thanks to Ned going over dying words in his inner-monologue.  

 

I've known for three years about

Tyrion's nose being lost at the Blackwater

 that one was courtesy of my BIL who was urging me to read the books and dropped it before I could stress, "No! Seriously."   

 

This season I started to lose any faith in the series and some friends confirmed a couple of things after the FB/Headline debacle so the other thing I now know?  

Ramsay doesn't marry Sansa, WTF show?!? Seriousy, WTF??

 

 

And the other one that I know is this:  

Dany's believed to be infertile.  The Witch said it, apparently.  It was the one thing bookwalkers pretending to be unsullied could never keep straight as not being from the show.  I have no clue why, but that one got dropped on us so frequently, there's no way on the green and verdant earth that the unborn grandchildren of the unsullied haven't accidentally absorbed it via genetic memory

 

Only one of those things really was the complete deal breaker for me and I had to throw my knapsack over the wall in terms of "Yup, that one is always, always, always going to influence speculation for me."   

 

Kind of fun to report that my own son is a book reader and not even once did he ever spoil one damned thing.  The only thing that he ever told me is "The books are much better" and he was the one bookwalker I trusted to completely know my taste in books enough to know for sure that I'd like them.  

 

And that's officially enough about me, but since it probably looks like I snapped like a wet carrot over a finale I didn't like, I figured I'd explain the deal.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Holmbo]

Fun with a thread for former unsullied. A sullying thread.

The only time I was ever unsullied while watching the show was when watching the pilot. After that I read the books and really enjoyed comparing the show to them. I feel most of the time they enhance each other.

I probably don't have many unspoilerly reflections about the first book to post but I'm looking forward to reading everyone else's comments.

Do you have any scene from the show that you're suprised was not in the book so far Shimpy?

[stillshimpy]

Hell yes, Jaime and Cersei talking it up over Jon Arryn's corpse.   Was that a scene added for clarity?  

 

By the way, it already made me wonder: So...that made the twincest obvious from the very first moments of the show and made What Bran Saw a lot less shocking than I'm assuming it was in the book.  It was more like, "Okay...that's her...brother? That's not good.  That's really not a good idea."   

 

It also was the thing that supported the entire "Well clearly the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn" for years.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Oh gods, the infertility thing. The inability to keep that straight was one of the fastest ways of spotting a fake Unsullied. It was maddening.

Yeah, I think they added the Jaime/Cersei scene to the pilot to try to help clarify their relationship.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

They also apparently added a scene where Tyrion was wallowing around in women and wine.  

 

Like I said, the book doesn't seem to be in as much of a rush to make sure you Get.The.Drift super fast on the character notes, which makes sense because it doesn't have time constraints on it.  

 

On the other hand...there's some room for letting things develop a bit more naturally and I'm enjoying the more meted approach to "Meet everybody".  Only Robert's introduction has been sort of "Yup, that's exactly who he was onscreen too."  

 

Which gladdens my heart, because I had a fondness for Robert that few shared and I'm glad to see it supported on who he once was, vs. the bloated, sad wreck of a man he became.  

[Avaleigh]

Which POVs are you new readers most interested in getting to? Who do you hope will be included? Are some POVs better/worse than you thought they'd be? Do you picture the actors while you're reading or have your already formed new images of the characters? For me I've mostly kept the characters that I originally envisioned. There are about four or five exceptions though including Ian McElhinney's Barristan Selmy and even though I haven't gotten to his character yet, I know that I'm going to both see and hear Charles Dance as Tywin. 

 

The Jaime Cersei scene where they're talking by Jon Arryn's corpse was definitely added to further establish that Jaime and Cersei are brother and sister. 

 

Interesting that bookwalkers pretending to be Unsullied continues to be a problem. I was dismayed by how much of it I saw over it TWoP. I so don't get the appeal of that. 

 

HBO had just announced that they were going to do an adaptation of the series when I first decided to read the books. I was reading the fourth book, I think, and decided to see if any recipes were created for any of the dishes that have been described in the series. (Little did I know lol.) So I'm reading somewhere about sister's stew or whatever the hell, and right there near the top of the comments section is some asshole shouting in caps that (mild spoiler for something that has already occurred on the show)

a certain character loses their sight

in a certain book. I was so ticked and I'm not even a spoilerphobe, I just thought it was so rude. 

[Last Time Lord]

So far I've been enjoying Jon's POV chapters and looking forward to the next one the most.

I actually just finished one where he had a talk with the Night's Watch's smith about how he'd been a bit of a bully to the others in training, because despite his illegitimate birth, he was raised in Winterfell with all the advantages of a true born heir.

And there was also his absolute joy in finding out Bran woke up and will be fine, and the whole teaching Ghost to juggle bit.

[Delta1212]

They also apparently added a scene where Tyrion was wallowing around in women and wine.

Like I said, the book doesn't seem to be in as much of a rush to make sure you Get.The.Drift super fast on the character notes, which makes sense because it doesn't have time constraints on it.

On the other hand...there's some room for letting things develop a bit more naturally and I'm enjoying the more meted approach to "Meet everybody". Only Robert's introduction has been sort of "Yup, that's exactly who he was onscreen too."

Which gladdens my heart, because I had a fondness for Robert that few shared and I'm glad to see it supported on who he once was, vs. the bloated, sad wreck of a man he became.

Yeah, they definitely dumped the Cliff Notes version of each character on screen as quickly as possible, but then, it's TV so they kind of have to.

I actually really like the scene they added near the beginning of all the Stark's together in Winterfell where we first meet everyone. It really sketched out the family dynamic well, I thought.

[lucillenumber1]

Shimpy- welcome! long time admirer of your analysis and fellow BSG fangirl.

I am going to do a re-read alongside you in the off chance the next book is released next year. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts- it is exciting to see the characters again through a new lens.

I do suggest picking up a hard copy of the books after GOT. As in the series, the character list and world expands and I found the appendix (which lists all the major families/areas and how try are connected as well as maps) a lifesaver. With a hard copy, it is much easier to flip back and forth when you are trying to recall who is who. I tried using online wikis once when listening via an audiobook and was spoiled.

[Delta1212]

Shimpy- welcome! long time admirer of your analysis and fellow BSG fangirl.

I am going to do a re-read alongside you in the off chance the next book is released next year. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts- it is exciting to see the characters again through a new lens.

I do suggest picking up a hard copy of the books after GOT. As in the series, the character list and world expands and I found the appendix (which lists all the major families/areas and how try are connected as well as maps) a lifesaver. With a hard copy, it is much easier to flip back and forth when you are trying to recall who is who. I tried using online wikis once when listening via an audiobook and was spoiled.

Although having seen the show should help a lot with keeping people straight, similar to how reading the books made it a lot easier to understand who was who on the show. I think it took me, embarrassingly, until book two to figure out that Theon Greyjoy and The Greatjon were two different people (because the names look so similar that I kind of glossed over the distinction), which, obviously not a mistake you'd make after seeing the show.

[stillshimpy]

By the way, guys thank you for helping me rediscover some excitement about this story.  I was so damned heartbroken by Sunday that I didn't think I'd ever be all "Yeah! This is actually a really gripping tale, right?"  

 

So thank you for that and for the welcome, lucillenumber1.  I am going to answer this before working out and reading a bit more this afternoon:  

 

Which POVs are you new readers most interested in getting to? Who do you hope will be included? Are some POVs better/worse than you thought they'd be?

 

I was about to say "All the Lannisters" but then...Joffrey.  Blech, so with the notable and absolute exception of Joffrey, I am interested in the Lannister POV ...not for the baffling "date outside your ....uterus mates, would you, please???"  stuff, but because I have NEVER understood anything about Jaime Lannister.  Nothing.  Not one animating force within the guy and I don't think it is the actor's fault.  He did a much better job with showing me things this season.  But I was just telling Mya that one of the things the inclusion of "Tryion, he likes the wine and women..." scene was that rather than inviting me to view Tyrion as an emotionally astute person who had to muffle his pain at what the world contained with women and wine...I saw him as the perpetual "I live in my parents basement and smoke pot, because what's the point?" until that devastating scene with Tywin.  

Then also, I didn't get for years that Jaime loved Tyrion.   To the extent I thought it was entirely possible that Jaime set up Tyrion for Bran's murder...because I didn't see Jaime smiling fondly at his little brother, I saw Jaime smirking at a guy I thought he found ridiculous.  

 

Completely colored my perception for years afterwards and I still think was a giant mistake, made mainly to get some nudity in to meet the HBO need for it without having contractually excluded actors having to be body-doubled.  

 

So yes, I want to read all the POVs for the Lannisters, because I've never gotten any of them.  

 

Ned's is a lot better than I thought it would be already.  The series always left me with the impression that whereas he was a good man, dedicated to doing his definition of the right thing, I genuinely thought he might be a little dim.  

Littlefinger is the character I'm most nervous about meeting, because I'm kind of afraid of him now and his inner-monologue is likely to scare the hair off of my head. 

 

 

 

Do you picture the actors while you're reading or have your already formed new images of the characters?

I thought I would and for the younger characters, yes, my mind just kindly ages them and adds the actors...although Dany's hair description is tripping me out a bit.  I guess silver would be a really hard thing to wig without it just looking gray though.   For Ned, Catelyn, Robert....well I love Mark Addy so I think my mind just bumped him up the required eight inches or so...but pretty much immediately Cat and Ned were replaced by what my mind envisioned.  The age difference on the characters was just too much for me to overcome...although I think Michelle Fairley was only about five-six years older than Cat, they shot her with a brutal filter for the Northern scenes and I thought she was Sean Bean's age.     

Also, Cersie is just sort of blank in my mind right now.  

 

I think I'm going to have a similar experience though, because I see Kit Harrington, no problem for Jon Snow...but I think he really found his footing in the role and he seems like Jon to me.   Can't tell on Robb yet.  I think it's going to end up being "Whoever hit the closest to the source material, I will see in my head.." and so far that's Mark Addy ....but not Sean Bean.  I admit, I need more...to really come down firmly on this, but the choices in the crypt have weirded me out enough to think that Sean Bean was a bit adrift in the role early on.  I guess I'll find out if I'm wrong when I finally quit stalling and go work out.  Which I am doing now.  Hopefully.  Unless I keep stalling.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Athena]

I was about to say "All the Lannisters" but then...Joffrey.  Blech, so with the notable and absolute exception of Joffrey, I am interested in the Lannister POV ...not for the baffling "date outside your ....uterus mates, would you, please???"  stuff, but because I have NEVER understood anything about Jaime Lannister.  Nothing.  Not one animating force within the guy and I don't think it is the actor's fault.  He did a much better job with showing me things this season.  But I was just telling Mya that one of the things the inclusion of "Tryion, he likes the wine and women..." scene was that rather than inviting me to view Tyrion as an emotionally astute person who had to muffle his pain at what the world contained with women and wine...I saw him as the perpetual "I live in my parents basement and smoke pot, because what's the point?" until that devastating scene with Tywin. 

 

Book!Jaime is one of my favourite characters and this did not happen straight away. I think his characterization and development is one of the best in the books. I'm excited for you to read his POV. It's hard for me to be unbiased to Jaime since I've read the books, but I don't think the TV show writers has done the character justice. The acting is there, but not the writing. I hope you begin to understand Jaime more and compare it with the show.

[Delta1212]

As long as we're mentioning how characters look in our heads, my Catelyn is definitely a bit different than the show's portrayal, and I think both the age difference, and some of the personality changes play into that (things like Catelyn pushing Ned to go to King's Landing against his wishes in the book vs the reverse in the show), whereas my Ned has always looked a bit like a younger Sean Bean.

And actually, funny story, I rewatched The Station Agent only a couple months before starting A Game of Thrones, so even though the description is really nothing like him, my mental image of Tyrion was heavily informed by Peter Dinklage even before I found out he'd been cast in the role.

And it's funny that Ian McElhinney's Barristan got mentioned further up thread, because he's one of the few actors who completely supplanted my mental picture of a character despite not being completely on the mark physically. It's basically him and Varys's voice. I can't read a line of Varys's dialogue anymore without hearing Conleth Hill.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Delta1212

[Delta1212]

Oh, and I just thought of a game if you're interested, since speculating is fun:

Without anybody providing you with an answer until you actually get to those points in the books, can you pick out a memorable moment that you think was probably very faithfully adapted from the books and one you think was significantly changed or even completely invented for the show? Let's say one of each for each season in lieu of a better metric, though you can certainly do more or less if you feel like it.

As big or small and as narrow or broad as you'd like for each. So anything from a speech to a whole season-long character arc.

[Avaleigh]

I think I'm mostly curious to know if new readers who were show watchers first end up having a preference for show characters vs. book characters. For me it's a mixed bag. I won't get into specifics because I'm curious about everyone's own conclusions but I think more than anything in terms of characters I want to know how the portrayal of the villains/darker characters come across to new readers in the books vs. the show. 

[stillshimpy]

The first one is almost a complete laydown -- I will eat an entire milliner's worth of hats if the insanely infamous "Sexposition" was not entirely, and absolutely invented from whole cloth.  In fact, Littlefinger's stuff would be my pick throughout the series for "Now, seriously? That had to be worded differently?" the poor actor, because that scene was god awful and not even the risen Laurence Olivier could have pulled that off with dignity "evil planning, plotting...scheming...also, incidental ass-playing because a person would randomly shout that at that moment...?"   I mean, I feel like the actor would have been fully justified in getting hammered for three days after completing that.  

 

Robert's scene, telling Lancel Lannister all the ways he could go to hell and about men shitting themselves in war seems another likely candidate for "That sounds like inner-monologue translated to the page"...but it's a beast of scene and Mark Addy actually freaking pulled it off in what looked like a giant take....and then hopefully he got drunk for three days straight because...yeah, that one must have been exhausting.   

 

The one I hope is in the darned book, pretty much word-for-word is "I'm not your boy, Lannister...." because although Robb was being rude as hell, in fairness, he thought Tyrion was from a family that was up to absolutely no good....which was sort of a fair assessment.  

 

Also? I have always kind of thought that Osha probably doesn't exist in the books.  That she seemed like a character invented to give Bran someone to talk to.  I became less sure of this with the Theon stuff in second season.  

 

In terms of a character arc, that's the one I'd pick for "That doesn't actually seem all that likely to me".  

 

Oh and for goodness sake, here's one I've already encountered on the "What with the who know?" level of befuddlement....apparently Mance Rayder was referred to as The King Beyond the Wall from the first pages.  In fact, there were seemingly casual "We're calling him a King and him a King and...."  for whatever reason I was under the impression that the whole "You're a King and you get King...and you get a King...and you'll be a king..." stuff started after Robert died.  

[Haleth]

Welcome to the Club, Shimpy!  I look forward to hearing your views regarding the book vs the show.  (I've been a fan of yours here and for BSG for years.)  Hope some of your other Unsullied friends join the conversation and good luck not spilling anything to those who choose not to read.

 

I am rereading GoT too after many years, but it's my "in between other books" read when I have nothing else on the nightstand.  I've given my Unsullied son my paperback version because he's decided to jump in the water too.

 

I don't care if Sean Bean was too old to play Ned.  He's dreamy. ;)

Edited June 16, 2015 by Haleth

[Delta1212]

Oh and for goodness sake, here's one I've already encountered on the "What with the who know?" level of befuddlement....apparently Mance Rayder was referred to as The King Beyond the Wall from the first pages. In fact, there were seemingly casual "We're calling him a King and him a King and...." for whatever reason I was under the impression that the whole "You're a King and you get King...and you get a King...and you'll be a king..." stuff started after Robert died.

Yeah, this is my first real re-read (I've mostly limited myself to looking up specific passages for speculation purposes up to this point) and I've already hit quite a few "Wow, that got mentioned a lot earlier than I remember" points. Probably largely because the first time I read this, I had no context for a lot of things and therefore promptly forgot about them because it was impossible to tell which names out of a list of a dozen were meant as filler and which would ever be brought back up again, or who in the world Waymar Royce was talking about when he shouted "For Robert!" and that it would be a character we'd be meeting a handful of chapter later.

Really, I'm just impressed so far with how much world-building GRRM manages to cram in, usually fairly organically. I should be used to it enough not to be surprised, but I think I've gotten used to the rather more bare bones approach that the show takes sort of by necessity that I forgot what a wealth of lore and history is dropped on you.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Delta1212

[Autarch]

When I heard that the famous unsullied stillshimpy had decided to join the ranks of BookWalkers, I was thrilled. I have nothing more to add except that I've loved your posts in the unsullied habitat, and I look forward to your comments here as well. :)

[Fable]

When I heard that the famous unsullied stillshimpy had decided to join the ranks of BookWalkers, I was thrilled. I have nothing more to add except that I've loved your posts in the unsullied habitat, and I look forward to your comments here as well. :)

 

I always looked forward to stillshimpy's comments with the Unsullied, and I know I will miss them, I imagine the posts will be just as interesting, so welcome to the team.  

[stillshimpy]

Thank you very much, Haleth ( I know your name, I know I do...is it from the BSG days?  I think it is!) , Autarch and Fable, I appreciate that a great deal.  We had a lot of fun, so I'm so glad it was fun for others as well.  After all, we'll always have porcine excrement, or something. 

 

So, I have been trying to resist the urge to power through the first book for fairly obvious reasons.  For one thing, I'm in the Bran chapter, which officially beings The Suck that can be this story.   It was interesting to see in Arya's chapter that she is easily, without a doubt at this point in the story, the character who translated most completely to the screen.   No adjusting for actor appearance or anything.  

I was also interested to see some more evidence of Joffrey's (entirely heinous) personality.  I think Arya translated so completely because she is a bit of a standard character -- as is Sansa -- for the fantasy genre (and beyond) the girl who rebels against all stereotypical gender roles, in part because they do not come easily to her and she's understandably sick of being told she's not _____ enough whatever the blank might entail.  Not meek enough, not genteel enough.  Not gifted at all thigns delicate, etc. etc.  I love Arya, but aside from the trajectory of "Murder, murder, revenge kill!" I do feel like  I've met her character a lot in the past already.   Early days Arya looks like she would fulfill a lot of genre tropes, even though that doesn't prove to be the case.  

 

Same deal with Sansa.  I've always felt like the story invited me to judge her very harshly for wanting the things she was told to want.  No POV from her yet, but in my brief glimpse of her thus far, she's still occupying that spot.  Arya the trailblazer and role breaker; Sansa the adherent to all things proper and rigidly defined...and of course, she's beautiful to Arya's being relatively plain.  

 

Not that reversing that would have changed anything and all characters have to have a description attached to them.  Still, it feels like the story is playing into the old "and women will primarily define themselves by how they look, and what they should expect from looking that way...from the rest of the world..."  Just saying, Martin is dabbling in some well waded shores there.  It's just that I know the Sansa will be pinata (and I sort of assume may actually be dead by this point in the tale) and unlike the regular "she broke all gender role stereotypes, she suffered, she eventually triumphed, up with girl power!) the last time I saw Arya she was being robbed of her sight as a punishment, so....well done on the "it sucks to be ANYBODY...regardless of parts" in this story trope-breaking, Martin).  

But the character that really took me aback and surprised me was The Hound.  Who knew he was so...verbal...without much prompting.  I never think of him that way.  I think of him as lashing out with words, not leaping forward, ready with them.  I think of The Hound as using every communication as a defense.   

 

So I wasn't looking forward to him and I'm not jazzed about him, but for entirely different reasons than I thought would play out, in the very brief time I've read anything about him, thus far.  He's the character who makes me nervous. I eventually learned to appreciate him, I suspect because of the way the actor played him.   Just judging from one scene with him, I don't know that I'll achieve appreciation via the written word with The Hound.   

Edited June 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Yeah, Arya has been held up as a particularly well-cast and well-adapted part since the beginning. I think it helps that she's a fan favorite for the exact "slotting into the familiar rebellious girl trope" reasons you mention.

A point of interest that I think might be relevant here is that GRRM has talked about his thought process a bit as regards fantasy tropes, and I've seen him use a couple of times the example of the princess who runs off with the stable boy. His perspective on that is that A: it would never happen in real life during the pseudo-time-period it's always portrayed in and B: would likely end badly for everyone involved if it did.

So my take is that he intentionally sets up a lot of fantasy tropes and recognizable character types and then spins them to show some of the less explored potential negative consequences were someone to play that trope straight in the real world of a feudal society.

For my own part, I was definitely more a fan of the show Hound than the book Hound, and for a brief second had the same double-take reaction to his first speaking role in the chapter before I mentally adjusted mediums, but the book Hound certainly has his own cheering section in the fanbase, so we'll see how much of a difference it makes for you as we go.

Also, I kind of had to laugh at Nymeria's name getting explained straight off the bat. You have no idea how agonizing it was reading the Unsullied thread while the show was taking its sweet time to even name the wolves on screen. Incidentally, forgetting which wolves had been named so far and which hadn't was another one of the first big clues that somebody wasn't really Unsullied back before they finally named them all in the show.

[ulkis]

I'm here to tell you, if Robert wasn't taken almost entirely from Edward IV

Definitely. Although I think Edward was probably overall a much better at actual kingship than Robert and Edward actually cared for Elizabeth Woodville, unlike Robert, who never really cared for Cersei at all.

[Protar]

I've been following the Unsullied for years, since the TWOP days. And I'm glad to see that some of you guys are finally checking out the books after a disappointing fifth season (to be honest I've been disappointed at the changes the show has made since season 2 - but looking back now we had it so good back then.). So I thought I'd make an account here to finally be able to chip in and interact with you guys. I'm really excited for your reaction to some of the big changes coming later on. Stillshimpy your thoughts have been really interesting so far :)

[Delta1212]

Oh, and as long as we're at this part: One of the few things I knew about the series before I started reading was that Martin was supposed to have a penchant for killing off characters. So when I reached the Bran chapter, I was sure he was a goner, and it was the first of three times where I momentarily set the book down and wondered if this was really something I wanted to keep going on if he was going to kill off the seven-year-old kid that was our introduction to the story only a few chapters in.

I'll make note of the other points when we get there, even though you've already seen them all depicted on the show.

[stillshimpy]

Yowza:  I saw how long this was after I posted it.  Sorry folks.  Bring provisions for this one.  Possibly camping gear and overnight material.  Novel alert:  

 

Okay, so I've reached two points I've sort of been dreading, Bran's fall and Catelyn and Jon's conversation over his unconscious body.   Also: Dany Gets Married.  One I just flat-out knew, but didn't understand the extent of the changes and why it was such a brouhaha, but it was kind of the start of "Oh look!  The Internet can totally freak out, over the same thing, seemingly as one.  Uh...?" era.  The other was the first of a baffling, "okay, clearly I'm missing something that a bunch of people know...?"  

 

First there's also the whole business with Kahl Drogo, which was such a big part of forming the whole "No, seriously, trying to figure this out without 'this is how it was in the books' stuff" because there are two things pretty much all The Unsullied know if they've been around since the first season one because we just couldn't get away from people who really, really wanted us to know this.  I sort of don't blame the people who were just desperate about this, because it had to SUCK for fans of Dany and Drogo. It was such a "Well, okay but the thing is, the show went in the opposite direction....like seriously, no way to make those two things match up, so the way we're processing this story is going to be different from this point forward. 

 

The Dothraki wedding went down onscreen and pretty much the entire internet went freaking berserk.  First taste of "Holy shit, avoid all news sites!! Don't look at Yahoo's homepage, what the hell? How can we upload Xanax to the masses? What is going on? "  After the first episode, before any groups formed or anything, i'd been PMing with a BSG friend who mentioned as were discussing something else entirely, "Oh and if you want to stay unspoiled, stay out of the episode thread because it's spoilerific" or words to that end.  It may have had more references to bovine excrement and a couple of what-the-fuck-humans-of-the-internet thrown in there, but that was the gist.  So I got stupid levels of lucky in that I was told from jump not to read an episode thread.  

 

So the thing that everyone had to share was "In the book Kahl Drogo" seduces Dany, which while a relief for the rest of their entire story on the show, also makes the story more troubling and it's one of the changes made that seems to be about aiding an empowerment arc for Dany. It's also part of the reason that their arc went over like a smoking lounge on the Hindenburg.  So I have long since known that Drogo seduces Dany on their wedding night in the books and I did find the scene as eye-roll worthy as I thought it was going to be.  I find it a) kind of ridiculous because of how far-fetched it is.   It's also "A dude totally wrote that, because ....yeah.  No."  Implausibility aside, b) Dany is completely aware that she's been sold like a farm animal, because Viserys (more on him in a second) has told her almost exactly that, including telling her he'd let horses rape her, for goodness sake.  She would not be, as the saying goes, DTF.  She's 13 in the book which makes it even more "Okay, so that was a weird narrative note." 

 

It's really difficult to change that aspect to "So onscreen he straight-up rapes her" and really, there's not a lot of question about that, regardless of what comes next.  She's crying,  saying "No" and shaking.   I get that he isn't brutalizing her, but that's not the standard for rape.  Consent is.  Why the heck they didn't just have them NOT have sex as a way of indicating "Drogo actually gives a damn about whether or not Dany consents" , I'll never know.  But whereas book readers seemingly liked the "no, really...it's a love story!" stuff onscreen it became for me, "Please let her murder him in his sleep and get away.  Ride the horse to freedom.  Brain him with one of those damned eggs. Get the frak outta there, and strike one for the sisterhood!"  

 

You guy have doubtless had eleventy billion discussions about this already: But the changes to the Dothraki and the Drogo story are plain-old fucked up.  I knew about the seduction stuff, which plausibility aside, would have made the "My moon and stars, marshmallows and clover...you are the whiskers on my kittens and my spoonful of sugar..." treacly stuff that follows more palatable.   But turning the Dothraki from what is in the book -- a nomadic people, who live by the sword and have no shame about nudity and sex, as well as conquests, but actually has some kind of house....and dress in town clothes while in a town -- into almost full-on savages was not an okay choice to make, HBO.  Damn.  I know how it all ends for Drogo and the Dothraki horde (English Understatement  Alert: Not well) , so I can't retroactively join the outrage, but at least I now have full empathy.  Yikes.  

 

The other was that early one we so clearly had people in there that had read the books, who were actually able to keep their "what was onscreen" facts relatively straight, but were also really clearly reacting to an emotional narrative that had to be present in the books, vs. what was onscreen.  The whole Catelyn hates Jon thing.  

 

Onscreen it is confined to three scenes.  Firestarter Glare.  Banishment from Banquet.  Icy Fury Over her Comatose son.    It's not the stuff of fairness, but people hated Catelyn and the stuff on the screen was more of the "yeah, petty...but really pretty human to not love your husband's bastard son....she's not nice to him, but she's not mistreating him so....wtf, internet?"  

 

Well, now I get the fuck of it all, because good god, that is some brutal material.  "It should have been you"?  Also, in the book Catelyn more or less forces Ned off to King's Landing.  I can now understand her lack of popularity as a character, book Catelyn is not a relatable character.  For years I thought, "Okay, so I'm married, I don't think I'd be all that thrilled with 'Hi honey, I'm home and I've brought a guest....from my loins.  Bonus! You get to raise him and I'm going to tell the world that I got down to funky town when on a business trip" and here would be the key thing "and you don't even have the choice of leaving me if that sucks for you, buhbye, Agency.  Kiss your ass, Choice.  This is a done deal and I get to say so, because I can pee standing up.  Boy it's good to be a Mansta'".   It always struck me as "Dumb choice, Ned" and "Okay, so she's not nice to him and that is small and petty, wildly unfair and..." 

 

Book Catelyn is abusive to him and Jon's actively afraid of her.   Book Catelyn is a jackass on multiple levels and I have a feeling I'm going to want to do shots or shave my head in protest when I get to the other "Why the hell does everyone hate her this much?" scene which...in the show...Catelyn actually tries to avoid Tyrion at that damned Inn and it's Tyrion who won't cut the "Hail Stark!  I Say, Can't you see me here?  LADY CATELYN, hullllooooo!"  and Cat reasonably believes he's from the family that murdered Jon Arryn and is in possession of the "Own any interesting cutlery, you fucker?"  knowledge so she has reason to think he tried to kill her son.  Giant Spoiler About Me:  Yeah, if I think you had my son crippled, don't expect it to go well for you if we bump into each other at the local eatery.  Politics and diplomacy be damned, it would be on.   So I never really got the outrage over "And then she arrests Tyrion!! Die! Die! Diehard with a Quickness, Cat!"    stuff either.  

 

I don't know yet if I will, but I've already leapt nimbly from "Yeah, I can see her POV on this" into "Well, you're reprehensible, good god.  Access your higher self.  Or invent laudanum and get busy being friends with it to chill the hell out.  He's a kid.  You suck.  If we meet in the local eatery, it would not go well for you (or for me, I suspect since she travels with a sword-wielding posse). " 

 

Two notes on: Spot the Source Material Reader in the Acting Pool:  The way Nikolaj Coster-Waldau played that Giant Shove Out a Window scene with Bran is so entirely missing the "The things I do for love" he said with loathing that I have to think he didn't read the book beforehand.  I have always liked the actor and he's really good, but he plays Jaime as glib vs. in anyway tortured.  He played shoving Bran out of that window like it was closer to wryly amusing, vs. "I fucking hate my life right now, but what I am going to do?  Let us both end up dead because of this? For me, maybe.  For you, gah.  Sorry kid. Bye!"  

 

Kind of like with Cat, it so entirely colored my perception of Jaime that I could never understand what anyone saw in him.  I spent the entire first season wishing safes would drop from the sky and squish him into a stain with great hair.   

 

So those are all pretty big "Whoa, okay.  So that's not just different....that's different" and I think begins a migration away from "What someone just watching the series would reasonably think" vs. "what someone who read the books would reasonably think" ....which I'm sure included, "What the hell are you doing, TV?" a lot.  On the Catelyn front, there's enough material in the show that I can get some of the Cat-hate anyway, but I always came down on the "Seriously, not a good plan, Ned." 

 

Also, poor freaking Bran.  

 

I also begin to get why people were so interested in what unspoiled people were saying:  We were reacting to the same characters, but to a story with different notes being played for emphasis.  Basically, you watched our Alternate Reality for five years.  That's pretty cool and I now see the appeal.  

Edited June 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ulkis]

I have to say, Jon is my favorite but I never minded Cat being mean to him. For him, sure I feel bad for him, but I didn't mind from a character perspective because I do think without her Jon distaste she'd be too treacly as a character, the perfect mom and wife. I don't think she's abusive to him - she mostly just ignores him. She certainly had the power to affect her children's opinions of him, but she doesn't; they all love him except Sansa, and that's more because she's starting to try to act a proper lady than anything to do with Cat. I do think she's cruel to him at Bran's bedside, but she's lashing out. It's wrong of her, but I never got the impression she made comments like that on a regular basis.

Edited June 17, 2015 by ulkis

[Avaleigh]

I agree with you about Catelyn and Jon, Shimpy. For goodness' sake, she won't even address Jon by name. She refuses to speak this kid's name. It's like jeez grow the hell up and don't direct the anger at the innocent party in all of this.

 

I'm looking forward to getting more Jaime observations from you, Shimpy.  

[stillshimpy]

but I never got the impression she made comments like that on a regular basis.

 

I did and here's why:  He waits two weeks to go in there because -- he states -- he was afraid of her specifically.  Robb knows enough about their relationship to be worried about how she acted while he was there.  If they'd left out the "he'd waited for two weeks, but she never left his side, so Jon couldn't see Bran" stuff I might agree.  But you fear people who hurt you and it's kind just down to that for me.  He was afraid of going in there and waited because of it.  There's a reason for that.  

I don't think she was having him flogged, by the way, but she was clearly emotionally abusing him on some level, because he refers to how her horrible comment would have made him cry when he was younger -- which says he has had experience with horrible comments from her.  I can get the "yeah, sorry, I resent you and I can't overcome that to be your mom" aspect ...because people should decide for themselves whether they should adopt a child and Catelyn clearly didn't want to and was given no choice.  

 

That's no excuse for being poisonous to him though.  She threatens to call the guard and he's not surprised by that reaction but he seemingly is that she then doesn't follow through.  

 

As for the "Well, it makes her bearable, rather than Doris Day: The Period Piece Years" ....I grant you that.  When the first introduction to her is mostly about how she just wants to get knocked up so as to give her husband another son....yeah.  You got me there.  That character would not have been a good choice.  

 

But you know, when the fourteen-year-old in the exchange comes out looking like the more mature person "It wasn't your fault" and not rising to any of that bait?  Then I'm pretty comfortable with joining the You Probably Suck, Cat brigade.  

Edited June 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ulkis]

Sometimes I wonder why Ned didn't step in. Possibly to keep Jon's parentage under wraps as possible?

[Delta1212]

I think I remember reading that the actors had some extra input on how the Dany/Drogo scene went down on the show and what was realistic for them to portray, but how much that actually contributed to the deviation from the book vs what the show was going to do anyway, I don't know.

And yeah, the show's depiction of a lot of the people in Essos has often sort of turned them into "miscellaneous brown people." Which, again, I get time an budget constraints on developing nuanced cultures, but still. At the very least some of the choices have been... unfortunate.

Personally, I've never been a Cat hater, and the vehemence of it from some corners actually surprised me when I found out that was a thing, but the book Cat definitely has some sharper edges to her that got softened a lot on the show.

Less understandable to me has always been the Sansa hate who, yeah, never my favorite character either, but she's eleven. Let's cut the girl some slack.

And yeah, that flippant push out the window has always been one of the few acting choices I wasn't thrilled with on Nickolaj's part, which I've always tried to reconcile as Jaime putting up a mask to cover the self-loathing and trying to avoid dwelling on what he had to do, but... Yeah, that's really me stretching there and I know it.

But anyway, yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with why reading your specs was so fun. You were working with a different set of information and often came up with spitballs that made sense based on what the show had depicted but that I never would have come up with myself because I knew the "real" version of events and what things on screen were ultimately not worth focusing on.

[Protar]

On Catelyn: I don't know if author's comments on scenes you've already read are spoilers but I'll spoiler tag it anyway:

Martin has said that, while Cat certainly wasn't nice to Jon, The "it should have been you" thing was not typical behaviour.

 

Cat is certainly a divisive character in the fandom. Primarily this is all based on how much you empathise with her resentment over Jon. Personally I kind of just find her a bit trying to read because well...I hope it's not a spoiler to say that her POV gets pretty depressing to read later on. 

[Triskan]

Oh ! That is a thread I've been looking forward to for years ! 

 

To see an Unsullied's take on the original work, the perfect opposite of us book-walkers ! 

 

Shimpy, count me aboard your readers train ! (Now I'm gonna read the whole thread !)

[stillshimpy]

I'm going to skip that one for now, Protar, but will revisit it.  Because that's another layer of spoiling that I can do after this.  Kind of what happened too was that some of the stuff I mentioned earlier put me into a space I'd never been before:  I just didn't care enough about the story any longer to do the bazillion things that need to be done to avoid GoT spoilers.  Fable asked elsewhere how the hell we all did it and guys, they aren't going to tell you the full story on that and neither am I.  It practically involves tradecraft, and I'm not exaggerating by that much.   What it does take is a level commitment I lost after this dreary season and afroementioned "WTF??" avalanche.    

 

But for the obvious stuff:  you can't read the news sites.  For damned real, you need to have someone else do stuff like "Hey, did you look at buzzfeed this morning?" Don't even go anywhere near Reddit, ever at any time of the year.  Right-hand side of Huffington Post and a lot of news sites?  Do not even glance in its direction or you will be sorry.  Facebook?  Be prepared to click the "i don't want to see this post" option a lot and unfollow people for the full season.  Finally, there's just that "I will abandon real-life social mores and practices by doing things like cutting people off in mid-sentence.  

The person this happened to is actually around here and I was just PMing with her the other day, but we had someone get off a bus on the way to work to avoid people talking about the show....only to share that story with a coworker "I got off the bus..." and the coworker then forcibly spoiler her on kind of big plot developments, which I finally got ask her what they were the other day and...yup, I get why she went over the wall that day.   Public transport involves headphones, but that's actually the least difficult one because on a plane, a lot of people have headphones in ...and it's usually just for the season....and there are other things on top of that that I'm not going to talk about (no baby goats get sacrificed and we didn't bathe in blood, but probably would have happily burned a book as a sacrifice and rolled in the ashes, if we thought it would work).  

 

There's the obvious stuff like: Always watch with the remote nearby in order to fast forward to avoid previews....whenever you're watching anything on HBO (which usually means no live broadcast, join your DVR a minute in).  

 

So I really appreciate the tag on the Protar and here's why: because one thing I can look forward to again at the end of this is another round of:  Okay, how close did I get to the truth there?  And it's often not very close, but it's still fun to guess.  

 

 

 

Less understandable to me has always been the Sansa hate who, yeah, never my favorite character either, but she's eleven. Let's cut the girl some slack.

 

I'm not on board the Good Ship Cat Hate, but when it comes to Jon, that does suck.  I asked myself the "Why the hell would Ned let that go on?"  and like I said earlier, turns out there is material in the book that supports the "Ned protected the identity of Jon's mother like the Unsullied avoid Spoilers.  Taken to new and sort of stunning levels."  By the way, it was really truly nice to learn that there's material in there from the first moments of the book that would lead anyone to speculate..."Who the hell is this kid, really? Because even if he's simply Ned's son....something is friggin' up with the rest of the story."   

 

When it comes to Sansa, okay I don't know how much anyone would have paid attention to various poster's viewpoints, but I have always defended the hell out of Sansa.  Always and for that reason.  Everyone fights with their sister and mainly, it seems like she's on the hook for wanting to be what she was told she was supposed to be.  Plus,  the fictional world tends to mirror something that is such a prevalent part of the real world, it's worth mentioning: Both our world and it seems Westeros' world treat beauty as if it is handed out on merit rather then the blind luck of a person's gene pool.   Point being: pretty people are made to feel like being pretty makes a person good. 

I get, even just from Arya's POV that Sansa is going to be a bit of a pill at times, but she's a kid and it goes so far beyond that:  How much does anyone crave their parents and societal approval at that age?  Kind of a lot, for most people.  Hell, even Arya seems to regret not being like Sansa in Arya's introductory chapter.  That's not to say that this rigidly defined gender-role that Sansa seems so perfectly and effortlessly cast to fill is a desirable role.  It's not.  It sucks. It diminishing and reductive and there is a reason that the rebellious girl trope appeals so much to so many (including me)....because the expectations of that tiny, rigid gender-role suck.  That the only way to fully meet those expectations is through the dumb luck of chance (because even beautiful people can produce an ugly duckling of a kid....who stays the ugly duck)  and that sucks.  

 

A lot about the role Sansa wants to be cast in sucks, but the fact that she wants to fill it is ....what she's been told is her actual purpose in life and that part isn't her fault.   Then, of course, she takes roughly an age to catch up to the "Joffrey SUCKS, yo" stuff that is obvious from space, and that is wearing on the screen (and I suspect is maddening on a page...start getting salt shakers ready for those hats I have to eat, just in case, I guess) ....but I have always felt sorry for the girl, because we all have disappointed childhood fantasies and that hurts.  Hers actively turned around and cannibalized her entire existence.  She gets punished enough for being a person with childish dreams of what success in life means.  

Edited June 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ebevan91]

Avoiding spoilers will always be hard. I started out as a show watcher, and watched the first 2 seasons first. I got spoiled on Blackwater so I just went ahead and read the books because if I'm reading directly from the source material, then that's not really being spoiled, so I can't be spoiled anymore.

[Protar]

I have to say that in A Game of Thrones I really detested Sansa. She was so insufferable. But she's grown into one of my favourite characters. I like her quite a bit more than Arya. I've always thought that the show really doesn't do her justice.