S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis:  

 

Stannis faces a difficult decision; Jon returns to the Wall; Mace visits the Iron Bank; Arya encounters someone from her past; Dany oversees a celebration of athleticism.

[90PercentGravity]

So I guess what's-his-face wasn't a son of harpy after all.  Where was Grey Worm in all this?

 

I might have missed something. I wasn't sure what was going on Elaria Sand. Why was she asking for another chance and what was her game with Jaime?

 

Damn, poor Shireen. Even her cuckoo mother wasn't that crazy. I was hoping she'd turn out to be immune to fire.

 

Jon Snow made it to Hardhome and back in record time. He must have borrowed Little Finger's transporter.

 

Meryn Trant is a pedo. Maybe Arya will use that to her benefit. She's proving that she hasn't become someone new, though. I'm totally bored to tears with the whole thing. She needs to go back to Westeros and start training with Brienne. She and Pod might make a cute couple someday. 

[stillshimpy]

This show has a some pacing problems.  It can't quite strike the balance between glacial plodding and harrowing infanticide.  Gods and monster, drop fucking dead, Stannis.  Ew.  Even your crazy ass wife turned out to be a more worthy parent.  That was so upsetting I could barely pay attention to the the goings on in in Mereen.  

 

Apparently, at some point, I began to really like Daario, so that must be the most successful recast of all time.  When Hizzie bit it, it was a case of "oh, well I guess he wasn't evil...huh....Jeepers, I hope Missandi, Daario , Jorah and Tyrion are going to be okay (because no way are they killing Dany)....and then I just about soiled the couch in terror that they were about to kill the dragon.  Uh...Dany?  Way to leave absolutely everyone that loves you to die at the hands of the Harpys.  What the hell?  

 

You know, back at the beginning of "Ramsay's a right jackass, part 87" when the horse when galloping by engulfed in flames, I said aloud, "Fuck this show and its treatment of animals already, that was just unnecessary."  Yes, I know, it's got to be CGI, that was before Trout and his underage interests and before Stannis proved why I've really never liked him: He's a piece of shit.  I will hand it to the show, I was much less upset about the horse by the end of the evening. 

 

Although, well done show, for even half a second to make me think "Gosh, who do I hope wins the Northern battle now?"  is amazing work.  It took me a moment to parse out who I hate more, Bolton or Stannis, Stannis or Bolton.  At this point, I hope the Stallion that mounts the world kicks them all in the bloody head.  Bastards, the lot of them.

 

Oh and stuff with Jaime in Dorne.  Okay.   

Edited June 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

I wish to formally renounce my allegiance to Stannis Baratheon, titles titles, and note for the record that the Stannis they had presented up until this episode was *incapable* of burning, or by omission of word or deed allowing to be burned, Princess Shireen of House Baratheon. I will defend the King I knew, not this... person tonight.

Edited June 8, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

I dont even know where to start with this shit.

Dorne, okey dokey, so wheel chair dude is more menacing than I gave him credit for, enough to bring Ellaria to her knees and cry. And Jaime and Bronn and going back to KL with the Prince of Dorne and Myrcella in tow, and Princey will be on the kings Council. Okay, thats wrapping the Dorne stuff up pretty quickly. All that efforts on sets for Dorne and this is all we get?

Jon and crew must have taken the bullet express from Hardhome to Castle Black, eh? At least they opened up the gate to let them back in, I wondered if they would or not. Still thinking Ollie is going to cock it all up with some vengeance crap behind Jon's back.

Stannis...well, stands to reason that the sniveling little piece of shit that is Ramsey would burn people down, not surprised with his level of conniving "strategery". I was hoping that Davos would take Shireen with him without asking, because I could read the writing on the wall when Stannis sent him away, Davos is the only one in that crew who would have stood up to that shit. And to that shit, it better fucking work after that. Poor kid, she really was the only decent being in that family. So now Stannis is no better than that little fucker Joffrey. Burning your own daughter alive so as a sacrifice to becomg King? Fuck the fuck off you fucking fuckhead!

We all saw the Harpylympics coming from an episode away, so no surprise there. That said, I could barely watch that scene. I literally watched the upper left corner of the screen through my own hand blocking the screen. When the Scooby Doo Dragoon Gang was surrounded in the center of the ring, I kept thinking loudly, "CALL BLACKIE FOR FUCKS SAKE!" Honestly, Dany is a wee bit slow on the uptake. And I would think that a dragon would be more impervious to a mere mortal's spear. And for shits sake, where is Dany riding Blackie to because, yanno, she's got two other dragoons down in the dungeon and it doesnt seem safe to have two dragons locked up in a shooting gallery for the Harpies to take out now, yanno what I mean? That said, Dany reacts to Drogon as if she is in love with him, not that he is her child, but that he is her lover, which leads me to wonder if she can create additional dragons with him somehow...I know it sounds weird but I was thinking, if the dragons are meant to lead the way in some manner in the fight against the WWs and their army of death, they will need more than 3 of them, but how can the 3 dragons mate because they seem to be siblings, yes? Enter the Mother of Dragons...maybe there is a way she can fertilize more dragon eggs. Hey, its late, I"m tired and emotionally disgusted with this show so I'm shooting at anything I can right now.

Edited June 8, 2015 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Stumbler, huzzah.  You stood up for Stannis eloquently, humorously, and with no better reward than any other of his best champions.  I salute you for refusing to serve any longer as the Onion Knight in defense of this Calf's Liver King.  

 

No more.  I do see a consistent progression in Stannis's character -- and I think the story does, too.  This sickening of his soul brought him from burning his brother-in-law and many of his bannerman for not forsaking their faith for one that torches people who don't forsake their faith; to assassinating his brother with a demon "son" conceived with a witch; to abducting and seeking to sacrifice his other dead's brother's son; to cursing the son of the man who upheld Stannis's right to be king and lost his head for it; to condemning to death his most loyal, most mutilated advisor for saving his nephew; to burning a respected, potential ally in the fight to save humanity; to immolating his faithful, loving daughter.  

 

I understand that Stannis was wronged by Renly and believed, with some reason, that he had been wronged by Robb and by Davos.  But the throughline is that each of these deeds arose from his conviction that it is his destiny to be king - -and that his pursuit of this destiny elevated him above morality, fidelity or love.  Yet all but the last two of these killings or attempts occurred before Stannis had any idea that this destiny involved his acting as savior of the living.  And his sense of destiny arose not even from within his heart, but by his bending the knee to his own worst nature: to his ego and grievance, inflamed by a demagogue.

 

He's far worse than the Mad King.  The Mad King was mad.

[gingerella]

As always Pallas, so eloquently said!

Could it be that this show is about how nobody who truly desires to be King is actually worthy? Because the act of wanting to BE King in and of itself corrupts everyone who seeks to sit on the Iron Throne? The Mad King. Robert, we've been told, was a shit King in other ways, lazy and a drunkard who didnt seem to care about his people. His ego, yes. But his people? Not so much. Joffrey, batshit crazy inbred freak show. Tommen has yet to do anything evil, but he is weak in action, and instead of coming down on the Sparrows, he frets and weeps in his room alone. He is a baby. Stannis just burned alive his only child, the Princess Baratheon. He is shit in my book now. He is no better than Joffs. Each challenge he has faced has led him to make one more bad decision that leads him closer and closer to the dark side. What I cannot figure is how his men can watch him allow his daughter to be burned alive at the stake and STILL follow this idiot. I know, where would deserters even go now? They could go back to Castle Black and offer to fight with Jon and the NW instead... I just dont get how Stannis hasnt had a massive mutiny yet. Then again, perhaps his men are horrified and terrified of Mel, she of the great rack. maybe she mesmerized all the men with a flash of her tits? Tis baffling how he manages to keep his men in line after this.

[stillshimpy]

I'm sure it says something, about how long we've all been commenting on things together, when my reaction after Shireen's death included, "Oh God, poor Stumbler."  Because my husband -- freaked the hell out during that scene as Shireen began to piteously cry out in terror and confusion for her father -- literally couldn't take it any longer and began tapping my hand that held a drink.  To see if I needed a refill.  For damned real, that scene was causing everyone so much anguish his instinct was to flee its presence.  

 

He actually didn't, in part because the "What is it?"  I let out made me sound like a complete stranger to sense and reason.   I didn't need a drink, I needed something to clutch.  

 

 

 

So now Stannis is no better than that little fucker Joffrey.

 

He's worse than the Mad King, he's worse than Joffrey, because Joffrey at least had the excuse of being a psychopath incapable of feeling enough love to betray the emotion.  

 

But what Stannis did puts him a step below Theon Greyjoy, for pity's sake. Theon at least killed the farm boys before burning them.  

 

I've tried to figure out: Okay, so you think you're the only hope to save the actual world.  Somehow as a person -- if you are Stannis -- you have allowed yourself to believe that this is true.  That it seems to slot nicely into what you believe is your due, for faithful adherence to all things rulebook and letter of the law, is simply a nice side benefit of it.   So you think, "Every man, woman and child in this land needs me, or they will perish in a terrible war, in unending winter, and the actual world will end."  

If that's what you truly believe is your destiny and then someone says, "But there is a catch.  To save them all, every last soul, worthy or unworthy, you must do one thing:  You must inflict an agonizing death upon your only living child, who loves and trusts you.  You're already the King in her world, because she believes you will always keep her safe."   In being willing to sacrifice someone who truly believed he was worthy, Stannis became forever unworthy. 

 

Could you, could a person, actually bring yourself to do that?  I couldn't.  I mean, my message to the world would simply be, "Sorry, looks like we're all going down to hell together, because you might be able to take my son, but I'll never just hand him over to that."  In fact, ages ago in Sunday school, when I finally got the whole "sacrificed his only begotten son" in meaning, I determined that the path of religious observance would have to carry on without me, because that was a move a deal breaker for me.  However, at least that poor kid was given time to think the whole thing over and decide for himself.

 

However, for arguments sake, let's say Stannis could get there.  Could make himself believe, "I do this, not for me, but for everyone else" and really, at the core of his soul believe that, he wouldn't be the first in history.   He wouldn't necessarily even be the biggest monster to ever monster -- this is the world with Ramsay and Joffrey, after all, creatures who enjoy inflicting that kind of suffering  -- but the thing that proves to me that is not the case, that Stannis doesn't really believe that this is the truly righteous and self-sacrificing thing is pretty simple:  He sent Davos away to make sure Davos couldn't  try to prevent it, necessitating his death.  Davos knew on some level, after all, but I don't think he believed Stannis could go through with it.  

 

Nope, what convinces me that Stannis did not truly believe that he was on the side of the angels there?  He let other people lead Shireen to her death.  He hid from her.  He didn't even give her the tiny comfort of his presence.  He couldn't face her.  Stannis knew it was wrong and craven, because he spared himself that.  

 

Don't get me wrong, it was a gripping episode.  That there is still anything inside of me that thinks, "Surely this story is not going there...." when it comes to this tale probably says more about me than it does the story, but still.  

 

Poor Ned Stark was enough of a chump to take the Throne Room and wait for Robert to claim the throne.  Robert was a bad king, but he actually wasn't a terrible one, because apparently he ruled for something like fifteen or sixteen years.  For the most part people were safe, fed and there was something resembling law within the land.  Robert was a bad king, but he wasn't complete shit at it.  

 

Stannis watched Shireen burn and even her nearly worthless mother couldn't stop herself from trying to save her:  Zealot though she is, it's hardwired into biology to not let that shit go down on your parental watch.   Every one of Stannis's loyal men who watched that knows that too.  That's not the guy you're willing to die for, that ends up being the guy you can convince yourself it is okay to stab through the back, for the good of all. 

 

But I guess we do know that it will work.  Balon Greyjoy isn't dead out of the Leech gang, but freaking Melisandre's magic does seem to work.  Stannis just sealed his fate though.  It is one thing to convince yourself a terrible thing must be done, it is another to live with the knowledge of it.   The night  is dark and full of terrors, Stannis.  

Edited June 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

You know, back at the beginning of "Ramsay's a right jackass, part 87" when the horse when galloping by engulfed in flames, I said aloud, "Fuck this show and its treatment of animals already, that was just unnecessary."  Yes, I know, it's got to be CGI, that was before Trout and his underage interests and before Stannis proved why I've really never liked him: He's a piece of shit.  I will hand it to the show, I was much less upset about the horse by the end of the evening.

 

Heh.  A Show which airs Ned's death the week before Father's Day, celebrates our new Triple Crown champion.  A garland of fire for you, Pharaoh!

 

Although, well done show, for even half a second to make me think "Gosh, who do I hope wins the Northern battle now?"  is amazing work.  It took me a moment to parse out who I hate more, Bolton or Stannis, Stannis or Bolton.  At this point, I hope the Stallion that mounts the world kicks them all in the bloody head.  Bastards, the lot of them.

 

What a fitting curse on all their Houses, shimpy.  

 

then I just about soiled the couch in terror that they were about to kill the dragon

.

My cowering couch greets yours.  It had never occurred to me that opponents would remain behind to try to harpoon Drogon. My shock at the possibility of his death was ramped up ten-fold when I saw the tears in his wings.  I understand Dany's decision to save him by allowing him to save her.  For the moment, I'm willing to believe that she felt this was her first duty, and/or, that Drogon wouldn't allow any members of her party to mount him.  It's true that all her people had vowed to protect her with their lives, and her escape achieved that for them.  But I want to see this addressed.  What's that, Tyrion?  Something you want to share with the class?  

 

I admit to being thrilled by the entire sequence -- beginning with Jorah's spear -- and how long the showrunner's allowed things to unravel before bringing Drogon onto the scene: how long they kept us waiting for what we knew would happen.  And I loved Dany's certainty when facing Drogon, offering herself up in trust and then calmly hoisting herself onto his back...and the flight.  

 

Oh!  Dany took Jorah's hand -- incredibly moving.  He was wearing gloves, yes?  No -- I just checked.  Both their hands are bare.  Of course Dany may be immune to grayscale as she is to fire, but...would Jorah take that risk, or make that mistake?  Was his hope in returning to the fighting pits, to get close enough to infect her?  

 

ETA: Brilliant post above, shimpy, seen after posting this.  

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pallas

[ChocButterfly]

Pallas, again, so beautifully said! Everything I wanted to say about Stannis, but better!

 

But I'm not surprised, it's no secret that I have never been a Stannis fan. Everyone always defended him because how much he loved his daughter. Which, I never bought he loved her that much. Heh, I guess he showed how much he truly loved his daughter now! He loved her so much, he'd rather be King than keep her alive. And he always has an excuse, because, I bet if you ask him, he "had no choice" it was his "destiny" and his duty to sacrifice his daughter to become the rightful king! Fuck him! I won't even blame Mel about it, cause she has never cared. This is all on Stannis.

 

Gods and monster, drop fucking dead, Stannis.  Ew.  Even your crazy ass wife turned out to be a more worthy parent.

Incredible, no?? I didn't think his wife, who had always hated and mistreated Shireen, would care more about her! Plus, couldn't they just kill her with a dagger or something? Did they have to make her suffer one of the most terrible and torturous death there is?

 

The moment he sent Davos away I knew he was going to kill her. He knew if Davos was there he'd sacrifice himself to save Shireen. I hope when he finds out he' ll finally realized he doesn't owe that fucking asshole anything and leave him. But I know that's not what's going to happen. Knowing Davos, he'll give him some shit about it, but still be stupid enough to follow him.

 

And I still don't understand WHY HE NEEDS TO TAKE WINTERFELL AT ALL! Seriously, taking North won't make him closer to the throne. The Northerners won't fight for him, so he''ll just lose more soldiers and provisions on that battle. If he'd go for Casterly Rock, home of the Lannisters, Highgarden or even King's Landing, it'd make some sense. Heck, I'm sure if he had a bit of a brain he could have already made alliances with some of the houses that want the Lannisters dead. Even the Tyrells, they're opportunists. He could have offered Shireen to Loras to be his heir, or even marry Margaery himself (yeah, burn your own wife for the cause, asshole!). Staniss is USELESS. Melissandre doesn't have any plan at all and if he ever gets to be King, he'll be worst than the Mad King and the Sparrows put together.

I still want them to get rid of the Boltons, but then I hope Brienne kills him. But then again, she's also useless, isnt' she?

 

Now the part that I loved, Drogon!!! I knew the moment they were surrounded with no way out that Blackie would appear. But I had no idea she was going to ride him!! Yohoo!! Finally, some advancement on that plot. Kudos to those who foresaw the Harpy attack. Although I was sure that Hizdar guy was on it, until he got stabbed like 50 times. He wasn't that much of a jerk before, was he? He was acting very weird, maybe cause he was jealous of Dario. Speaking of which, I'm so glad they changed the actor. With the other one, I couldn't believe one word that slimy guy was saying. Now I love this Dario! I know I shouldn't say this, but I loved when that little guy got his head chopped in the arena, heh!

 

Did anyone else think Dany was calling Blackie in her mind when she closed her eyes? Also, great super aim, Jorah! Dany seemed wayyy to happy with him. I foresee tension between him and Dario.

 

Again, how useless are the Unsullied? They were supposed to be these super badass fighters that could take on 10 men each! Now, one guy takes them easily with no fight whatsoever. The only one who seemed worthy was Cornotudo. I don't know where he was, I suppose he's still recovering from his wounds.

 

I was surprised that Mean guy opened the doors for Jon. But when he told him his good heart was going to get them all killed, I wished Jon had replied right there that the WW were the ones who were going to kill them, and start telling them all about the battle. I know he's going to tell them soon, but he shouldn't waste any minute now. I wish they could have taken pics or something to who them,  heh.

 

So, Merryn Trant is not just a sadistic asshole, but also a pedophile. Why I'm not surprised? I thought he was going to choose Arya right there and that's when she was going to kill him. I guess that'll happen in the next episode. But, did he ever met Arya before? I'm not sure if he recognized her.

 

I'm liking all the Dornish (except Ellaria) more and more. I bet they're all get killed soon. Doran is the one who should rule the 7 Kingdoms, but he doesn't seem interested in power. I fear for Trystane in that pit of snakes that is King's Landing. I hope he gets sent with enough soldiers to protect him. Though, it's a good thing Cersei is in prison. I don't think Kevan is so stupid as to provoke the Martells unnecessarily. And what will Jaimie do when finds out what happened to Cersei? will he take the royal soldiers and do what Tommen should have done since the beginning? I hope Kevan doesn't let him and the Sparrows also get him imprisoned.

I think Ellaria was just acting her part. Although, she was all talk and no action, no? If she were smart, she'll realized Marcella is on their side now more than with the Lannisters. She could use that to their advantage, instead of trying to kill her.

Edited June 8, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[Pallas]

"Leaders who kill those who are devoted to them do not keep that devotion for long."  Tyrion, paraphrased,and hammered home in the previouslies.  Stlll, a very good point.  Stannis has done little but.  

 

No Abraham he, performing the god-ordered sacrifice himself, as shimpy pointed out.  No Ned Stark, either, taking it upon himself to execute the deserter and the direwolf.  For this alone, I think the saga curses him.  Just as lofty Roose Bolton uses the abomination Ramsay to do his dirtiest work, so does Stannis use Melisandre.  (Of course in both those instances, the using goes both ways.  Another disadvantage to out-sourcing your worst sins.)  And this, from shimpy, because it's grand.  

 

If that's what you truly believe is your destiny and then someone says, "But there is a catch.  To save them all, every last soul, worthy or unworthy, you must do one thing:  You must inflict an agonizing death upon your only living child, who loves and trusts you.  You're already the King in her world, because she believes you will always keep her safe."   In being willing to sacrifice someone who truly believed he was worthy, Stannis became forever unworthy.

 

 Along with, 

 

Stannis just sealed his fate though.  It is one thing to convince yourself a terrible thing must be done, it is another to live with the knowledge of it.   The night  is dark and full of terrors, Stannis.

 

May you be right.  Stannis is worse than his peers because he does have a conscience.  Just as I hope that Tywin's last days were blighted by his certain knowledge of Cersei and Jaime's incest and his bastard legacy, may this ruin Stannis from the inside out, and haunt all his remaining hours.  Remorse is the only justice of which I am certain.  By that scale, Tywin could never really face justice, as all he would feel about his downfall was how he had let been let down, and his fury at being shamed in the eyes of men.  Stannis, though, can feel guilt as well as shame.  Stannis can suffer his own corruption.  And I want to see it, this time.   

 

Shireen, clutching her carved stag as she walked to her death, and as she died.  Davos, who will now blame himself for not defying his King, and at least trying to take Shireen with him.  His son dead in wildfire defending Stannis and the Lord of Light; this marvelous child who mothered him, burned as she screamed for her parents, who killed her.  Davos: after you get to Castle Black, I want you to find and read something in the library, that  can rout this god.

 

How is it possible that Drogon's devotion, and his reconciliation with Dany, and her flight upon his back, can uplift me and reconcile me with A Show after that. Yet it did.  

 

Still concerned about Jorah's taking Dany's hand.  Not concerned for her, but for what it means about him. 

[DirewolfPup]

Dorne:

Doran, Trystane, and Mycella seemed all too calm when Jamie mentioned that Ellyria sent a death thread via mail to KL about how she's going to kill Mycella. I'm glad that Doran recognized Jamie's motivations and thought them forgivable and understandable. I am unsure what Ellyria's motivations for her talk with Jamie were. It reminded me a lot of the Season 1 Cersei/Ned talks. Now, in retrospect, those conversations are very enlightening. Maybe this convo with Jamie will prompt him to wisk Cersei away to Dorne to live out the rest of their miserable lives.

 

Braavos:

Round of applause to the people who predicted Arya would run into Trout. I love how A Show goes the extra mile to show how evil the baddies are. Trout is a pedophile. Of course he is. Why can't he just be a smug jerk that kills the good guys? Because A Show wants every person to be completely despicable.

Could A Man sense Arya was lying, or is she getting so good at it that she can hide from him now. Arya really doesn't seem ready to be an assassin. She lacks focus, discipline, and values vengeance above all else. The Oyster-loving merchant was her target. Just give him the damn oyster and THEN follow Trout. This isn't hard girl. Multi-task!!

 

Castle Black:

Ollie, you little sneaky crap. You're going to fuck something up aren't you? A Thenn should have eaten your boney little body. (okay, I exaggerate. still...)

Yeah. I echo what someone above said. Jon needs to have a little pep talk about what happened in Hardhome. Just stand up there and say "SEEEEEEEE.... freaking mother fucking Walkers, man!" He had other men of the night's watch with him to vouch for the story, too. Just. Ugh. Talk people!

 

Maureen:

So Dany's action at this point should be...? Release the dragons and have them guard her 24/7. Then what?  There were dozens and dozens of Harpies in that crowd. Killing all the nobility kills probably hundreds to thousands of innocent people. If you kill the men, do the women retaliate (or their children). Do you continue to lead like normal and ward off assassination attempts to prove that you're there for good? I'm not much of a history scholar at all. When one empire/country conquers another, should you just accept that they'll be years of dissension among the people until they settle down?

 

Outskirts of Winterfell:

Damn. Stannis, seriously, what the absolute fuck is wrong with you? Might as well become Craster at this point. Produce and sacrifice all your babies to this god that makes you kill children before you can win a battle. Sounds like a shitty god to me. There's a lot of battle ahead, so start making babies ASAP. Even if his logic is 100% sound (which it's not), who will take the throne after you die? Your heir? What fucking heir? You kill the only one you had. Long term game Stannis, fuck.

Props to the girl who played Shireen. I believed the crap out of that performance. My poor heart.

 

Winterfell:

My only hope is that Brienne can rescue Sansa, kill Ramsey, AND kill Stannis. Odds of this happening 1:2382.

[ChipBach]

Props to the girl who played Shireen. I believed the crap out of that performance. My poor heart.

 

I thought all the acting was spot on in this epi.  The little girl in the brothel broke my heart as much as Shireen.

 

 

Could A Man sense Arya was lying, or is she getting so good at it that she can hide from him now. Arya really doesn't seem ready to be an assassin. She lacks focus, discipline, and values vengeance above all else. The Oyster-loving merchant was her target. Just give him the damn oyster and THEN follow Trout. This isn't hard girl. Multi-task!!

 

CaM (Could a Man) knows Arya was lying.  He made a point to tell her that a good man was dead based on her failure to get'er done.  Arya was distracted by vengeance instead of focused on her "good" work.  Probably part of the training curve.  I hope she can kill the Trout in a most painful way.

 

Stannis, Stannis...  I was hoping he would lop off the Red witches head and save the daughter.  nope.  Another of my favorite character gone up in smoke. Davos knew what was going down.  Fingerless coward.  At least we will get more naked Melisandre, which is a guilty pleasure I guess.. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by ChipBach

[Pallas]

Dorne.  I would like to think that A Show is willing to introduce a sophisticated, philosophical prince who refuses to countenance revenge, believes in forgiving (up to a point) his vanquished opponents, loves his family even as he understands their flaws, does not blame life for being life, has a droll streak ("Perhaps some soup...?") and even a keen eye for a good bodyguard, and is played by Alexander Siddiq.  Who in whatever universe he appears, brings with him an air of gracious melancholy.  But I'm not sure.

 

I think it's possible that Doran simply believes in warfare without war.  That he is sending his son to King's Landing to stage a coup or dual assassination.  That he sent the viper-necklace gift to Cersei, to set up an attempted rescue mission that he would then disarm and run back into King's Landing as his unwitting emissaries, to secure his son's safe place there on the Council and with Myrcella.  

 

Maybe not.  Maybe Doran truly is a gentle and strong man (TM Ned), sophisticated and nuanced, content with his place as lovely Dorne's Prince, and with Dorne's place in the world.  Arguments for: (1) the story really might want to show that even a prince can princely.  That ambition and aggression are not universal among leaders, or people possessed of themselves.  (2) Doran allowed Jaime's own pretty capable bodyguard to leave with him, when he might in fairness -- without alarming Jaime's suspicions -- have kept Bronn imprisoned. (3) This prince is also genus "cripples and broken things" (TM Tyrion), which has so far pretty much assigned characters to the more principled side of the pile..  

 

But isn't it time to upend that presumption, that condescension?  And what principle am I talking about -- how long have I longed for someone to succeed in taking down this grotesque Lannister dynasty? Why should it feel wrong if Doran does so by guile? Why wrong if all along, he were only feigning forbearance to set up his play?  Does his representing forbearance have more value than his taking down the Lannisters, and giving us beguiling new players in King's Landing?

 

I suppose it feels wrong because we know that even it ends the Lannisters, it still can't end well.    And that an alto sax of a prince should know that too.

[ChocButterfly]

One of the things that bothered me the most about the death of Shireen is that it doesn't even make any sense. As I said before, I still don't understand what is Stannis obsession with taking the North. He will NOT earn an army with the North, they will not fight for him. He doesn't need that territory to take the throne. He will only lose men and provisions. So what is all that sacrifice for? It's like when Melissandre insisted on killing Gendry, after Davos set him free, what happened? NOTHING! Nothing happened, she just immediately forgot about it and suddenly declared they needed to go to the Wall to help the NW.

 

Plus, let's get this clear, what King's blood does Stannis have at all? Robert was king because he killed the former one. Stannis is just his brother, who happens to be the "rightful" heir, because Robert's wife cheated on him. Stannis is no King, he hasn't even sat on the throne yet to claim so! And if he is King because of Robert's rebellion, then blood really doesn't matter at all, anyone can have "King's Blood" if they seize the throne. If a bastard like Gendry had King's blood because Ned let Robert keep the crown after the rebellion and Gendry's mom just happened to be one of his lovers, then all that mighty blood means shit. Tommen is King; the Tyrells could kill the Lannisters and become the Royal family; Dany is the true Queen; heck even the High Sparrow could seize the throne and become King. So don't tell me that only Shireen's death was going to really matter to the LoL, because it doesn't make any sense.

[FineWashables]

There was a lot of talk about incest and bastards in the beginning, and for some reason I wondered if the scales on the face of Stannis's daughter could mean she has some Targaryan blood that would keep her from being burned alive.  (I know the backstory on it but hoped he misunderstood what they were.)  I also kept hoping that Stannis would change his mind and stick Melisande in the fire instead.  No such luck.  The scales must really be from that greyscale disease, and maybe the fact that she survived means there's hope for Jorah.  I keep hoping Jorah and the Khaleesi end up together.

 

I loved Daenerys flying away on the dragon.  I'm glad that when the time came, the runaway dragon who wouldn't obey her came to her aid.

 

Excellent acting from Peter Dinklage watching that scene.  He seemed as purely amazed as a child would have, and when I consider he was just staring at a green screen in real life, I'm very impressed.

 

 

[ChipBach]

Did Gendry die?  I guess I somehow missed that...  I knew they took his blood, I didn't recall them killing the dude.  I must rewatch.

[janjan]

No - Davos put him in a boat and he rowed away He hasn't been seen since.

[janjan]

Just think: a battle with nobody to root for! Stannis vs Boltons, with Littlefinger waiting to pick up the spoils. Ick.  I just hope the horses survive.

 

Drogon: a face only a Mother of Dragons could love, but A Viewer loves him!

 

The Harpylympics (TM Ginger) was a great scene, though it required some suspension of disbelief. How could all those Sons get in while hiding those big honking masks? No metal detectors at the gate, no doubt. But no matter. Drogon's swooping in to save his Mom made it all worth it. Now go get your little brothers and go roast Stannis. Slowly. And dismember the Red Woman piece by piece. Even though WinterComes makes a compelling defense.

 

Does Castle Black have suitable accommodations for Wum Wum? He could fill up the new latrine pit in no time. But I'm glad Thorne relented and let them in. I really thought he wouldn't. But they're not going anywhere. Jon promised them farm land south of the wall, but it seems to be snowing.

 

Dorne: Is that it? After all that build-up? It would make sense as a set-up for more king-making at KL if it was indeed Doran who sent the threat. But Ellaria confessed, didn't she? She sure caved fast. When Jaime gets back to KL, won't the Sparrows be gunning for him? Meta comment: Maybe the whole point of that sojourn in Dorne was just to keep Jaime out of the picture while they arrested Cersei, so he's available to wreak havoc on them when he gets back. Luckily, he will have Bronn as his havoc-wreaker.

 

Must rewatch: Did Jaqen and the MF God [heh heh, my sentiments exactly] actually order Arya/Lara to execute the oyster-eating man? Or did Jaqen, with his super-human powers, somehow know that Trant was on his way and position Arya to encounter him?

 

Betcha Arya will offer to be the "fresh one" that Trant wants for his next visit. The brothel prolly doesn't get many child volunteers, so she's in like Flynn and Trant is out like rat-bucket guy.

[stillshimpy]

Plus, let's get this clear, what King's blood does Stannis have at all? Robert was king because he killed the former one.

 

Well and the Targaryens ruled because they took the land, didn't they?  We've heard how Dorne was the only land to withstand the Targ invasion, didn't we?  

 

I do agree, Chocbutterfly, the story gets very loose about what makes something King's blood.  It's sure as hell not anything about character, I say with some serious conviction.  Boy did the darned show seemingly revel in making that scene as awful as it could be with Shireen crying out for her father.  When her mother, who never claimed to love her and was set up to be a lunatic and a woman who had locked Shireen away, tried to save her at the last moment that was the final blow. 

 

Also, jeez show, way to kick me in the stomach.  It was apparent all the way back when Stannis went out of his way to tell Shireen that she was the Princess Shireen of Dragstone and he loved her, the writing was on the wall....something bad was going to happen.  I just didn't think it would go down like this at all.  I thought her mother would sacrifice her.  I thought something would happen to Stannis.  

 

On the one hand, I have to sort of hand it to the story for (once again) going to the "no way, no how..." place again.   On the other, what am I supposed to hope will happen with this story?   

I do think the North would fight for Stannis, by the way.  The north allied with the Baratheons in the last rebellion.  They've (unsurprisingly ) no love for Bolton.  Although, I do think that Stannis might run into a small problem:  His men looked sickened by what was happening.  

 

I just don't even freaking know where the story could go from here.  Jon gathering the Wildlings, telling them to fight for Stannis....but who the hell willingly joins the man who burned his daughter alive? The North, I think would have joined Stannis because of the connection to Robert and Ned.  History means a lot to people....but...here's a tiny problem.  The rebellion starts at some point.  Either after Lyanna Stark is abducted, or what-the-hell ever happens and my understanding was that the two senior Starks went to King's Landing to demand the return of their family member.  Not that has ever been stated, I just thought that made sense.  It makes NO sense to me that Lyanna Stark would be anything other than abducted if her father and brother were burned alive by Targs, you know?  So I assume that whatever went down, went down in the order of "World's least advisable pairing"  "Starks go to protest"  "Starks burned alive" and there's the rub, eh? 

 

I mean, you can't be the "I burn those alive who disobey me, bend the knee" king to the area of the world that waged war against a King for doing the same shit.  

It's not a strong recruitment tool, is my point.   

 

Also, I HATE SAYING THIS.  A lot.  A lot, a lot, a lot.  But apparently Ramsay's actually a pretty good tactician, because that was a strong move in terms of decimating his enemies.  On the one hand, i would very much like it if poor Shireen's death at least bought me the death of Bolton and Ramsay in this story, but don't know.  Plus, poor freaking Sansa is almost certainly knocked up with the Evilest of the Evil Spawn by now.   

 

I swear I'm beginning to think this season will end with a bunch of suicides.  Shireen's mother  likely won't be able to live with herself.  If Stannis wins, that will validate his choice in his mind and make him more of monster.  

 

Thorne opening the gates for Jon was an almost pleasant surprise....which makes me really nervous.  I mean, something heartening has just happened, my friends.  That never bodes well for the future.  

 

I do hope Doran is out to kick some Lannister tail and by the way, what specifically is wrong with Ellaria other than she's lost her entire mind? I don't know if it is the choices the actor is making in her role, but I just don't like this direction and I'm really disliking Oberyn's daughters so far.  They are very thinly developed as characters, for starters.  

 

Also, I can't figure out if Jorah just decided to essentially kill Dany or not.  I'm entirely confused by that moment with his taking her hand so purposefully.  Does he believe she is divine?  That if fire could not harm her there is no way that gray scale can touch her?  I can't believe he went through all of that  and then purposefully infected her.  

 

But I will say that not since the freaking Galactica has a show managed to convince me, "Shit they can't actually kill that entire crew....can they?"  And sure enough, there was Drogon playing the part of the Pegasus riding to the rescue.  So that was a thrilling moment after a season of "Boy howdy, this is really having narrative struggles...."  and then so many darned things happened at once, I'm feeling a bit shell-shocked in sorting out what they mean.  

 

And they practically had Shireen skipping to her death, which is still really hard to even think about.  That little actress just KILLED IT.  Wow.  

 

Also, I know Trout (yes, I know his name is not Trout, guys) participated in killing Syrio and was present at the death of Ned too, but it doesn't feel ....earned, you know?  Her mission to abandon all just to get him feels off.  Maybe because he's never had any character development and is actually difficult to recognize (for me) without someone announcing "It's Merryn Trant (Trout)" . 

[Mya Stone]

Placing this under spoiler tags for you guys - too good not to share. (A video of the last scene. The only thing you have to worry about is suffering an earworm. But if you are a child of the 80s, like I am...you will love this.) 

[ChocButterfly]

I do think the North would fight for Stannis, by the way.  The north allied with the Baratheons in the last rebellion.  They've (unsurprisingly ) no love for Bolton. 

 

No, no way!! They joined the Baratheon' s because it was their fight as well, since Ned's father and brother got burned and his sister kidnapped. Actually, it was more their rebellion than Robert's, if you think of it. Plus, Robert and Ned were friends, they always supported each other.

 

I could see the North allying with Stannis only to get rid of Bolton. But there's no way in hell they're going to bend the knee to Stannis and help him fight for the Iron Throne. If Stannis were someone else, I could see the Northerners making a deal with him, and helping him get the throne if he gets rid of the Boltons. But Stannis is so fucking stupid, he won't be able to make any deal. Maybe Jon could make the North fight for him, but I'd say Jon is rather occupied at the moment.

 

But, hey, I'm wrong a lot of times on this show.

 

Stannis men will definitely turned against him at some point (who wouldn't?!). But not for the moment, they're more scared than disgusted right now. 

 

Jorah is so obsessed with Dany, that he has forgotten he has a deadly infectious disease that could kill her. Great, is that how this whole plot in Essos going to end? Everyone dying of grayscale.

[Pallas]

I still don't understand what is Stannis obsession with taking the North.

 

All I've got on this, ChocButterfly, is what Stannis said: "The road to King's Landing runs through Winterfell."  I believe he meant that literally -- this is Stannis, after all -- and I can see why he's not eager to repeat another naval assault.  He also needs the territory to provision his army.  And I don't think there's anywhere between the North and King's Landing, in which he might try to land his army and proceed on foot: all that territory is ruled by the opposition.  

 

Would the North join Stannis if he defeated Bolton?  Bolton, who is overseeing a reign of terror in the North; Bolton, who betrayed and killed their King, Queen, Queen Mother, the heads of most of their Houses and their armies; Bolton who rules as Warden under the Lannisters, who executed their previous Warden, who died siding with Stannis.  So yes, I can see why Stannis would presume that the North might make do with Robert's brother and heir, as until recently they made do for many years with Robert.

 

Stannis as King: according to the English laws of successions (which seem to be based on those of Westeros), Stannis became King the moment Robert died without legitimate issue. He is currently uncrowned and unconsecrated, but technically the King in exile, with a usurper on the throne and pretty much, another in every direction.  More to the point, though -- if Melisandre is right -- Stannis is the King recognized by the Lord of Light.  As I see it, Gendry's blood "worked" in the leech-spell not so much because he was the son of the Seven Kingdoms' former King, but because he was the nephew of the Red God's King. Shireen's blood could well be far more powerful in Melisandre's magic -- and the rite of sacrifice more potent as well.

 

Melisandre spoke of having seen the Bolton banner lowered over Winterfell, and herself on the parapets...but not what happens after.  Does she jump?  Is she pushed?  Does Shireen's mother seize her hand and jump herself?  While Brienne -- who may even have fought with Stannis, against the Boltons -- materializes behind him, and runs him through the heart? 

[gingerella]

Pallas, duude, you should write this show instead of the current show runners! For real.

Maybe Stannis thinks as he conquers those along Kings Road, that he will amass all the men and arms as he goes, so by the time he reaches KL he will be with a humongous army?

[Llywela]

according to the English laws of successions (which seem to be based on those of Westeros),

Or possibly vice versa...;-)

[Coxfires]

Wow, I haven't been commenting on GoT for a while but this season doesn't work well for me, and after this episode I'm just left meh... Yes, Drogon's scene was great, but even it doesn't make for the fact that I don't feel like there is anyone I remotely like left character-wise. I find Daenerys boring and can't find in Jon the charisma I expect from a great leader yet. Arya's story stalls, let's not talk about Sansa's torture (and Brienne's inaction). Shireen somehow represented for me the symbol of what to fight for, if all that remains are rotten bastards, assassins and greedy shits like LF, I don't know if Westeros doesn't deserve to be wiped by the WW.

I can't barely realize that it was E9 already, feels like I'm still waiting for the season to start

[stillshimpy]

according to the English laws of successions (which seem to be based on those of Westeros),

Or possibly vice versa...;-)

 

Or so the historians would have us believe [/conspiracy theorist, find.the.truth.com #realitybaseproblems]

 

Yeah, it is English law, upon which the Westeros law seems to have been based, but you know...I like Pallas's version for the fun with silliness it provided. 

 

I also just wanted to add, that Stannis doesn't actually seem to have an Obsession with the North as much as he has a "Can't get there from here, without going there..." problem.  As well as believing that he is the rightful king of all the Kingdoms, which includes the North.  So it's not anything specific to the North as representative of a mindset, but rather as part of the kingdom and an obstacle in the geography. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Heh, to the video:

Atreyuuuu!!

 

Pallas, you seem to still have a bit more of hope than me that Melissandre knows any shit of what she's doing, or that there's anything special about Stannis. There isn't. Well, at least I don't think there is. I hate him so much, I refuse to believe so. Mel has some powers, true, but so did the wizard that cut Varys. That doesn't give him or her any closeness to any god;( which, by the way, I think that LoL is the only god in GOT that actually has some power, even if he's really a demon). If she had, she'd be aiming for Dany and her dragons. She doesn't even seem to know about the dragons! What shitty information is she getting from her flames? Plus Thoros could resurrect people, she can't. I still think she's making this whole thing up as she goes along. I mean, I believe she can see some things, and she believes in her stuff, but she knows she really doesn't know much and is partly conning Stannis and making things up to her convenience. She's gambling.

 

I do think Stannis will defeat the Boltons, (because we NEED to get rid of him!) and maybe the Northerners will help him with that, it's in their interest. But I still don't believe they'll fight for him to get the throne. Plus, they'd have to convert, none of them will.

 

But who knows, maybe this will end up with Stannis taking the throne and he'll be the Ultimate Bad that Dany will have to face, before the zombies. A religious zealot who's burning people in Westeros, just like the Mad King was.

[stillshimpy]

What's odd also is that if Stannis prevails and the High Sparrow isn't plucked, next season will be a clash of the religious fundamentalists. 

 

Also, fairly clearly the god that Jaqen worships -- who he has referred to as the Red god and the Many-faced God, but never as the Lord of Light -- has power, as does whatever animates the White Walkers.  As does whatever the wizard who mutilated Varys, but this point will always be key: 

 

 

 

Well, at least I don't think there is. I hate him so much, I refuse to believe so. Mel has some powers, true, but so did the wizard that cut Varys. That doesn't give him or her any closeness to any god

 

Power is not interchangeable with divinity and supernatural power is not proof of divinity.  The Witch that brought Drogo back-ish had power, and thought that it came from a god.   Her god, the lamb god, or whatever that was.   The house of Undying also had power.  

 

It seems that there is something that is causing the rise of supernatural powers within the kingdoms.  White Walkers, the return of dragons, the strengthening of magical entities.  The Lord of Light being able to reanimate someone multiple times.  

 

Everyone is convinced they are hooked into the Divine, but it an unseen power needn't be divine or demonic.  It's just a powerful thing.  Whatever allows Melisandre to do her thing, is either fickle or screwing with her on purpose, because she saw Stannis triumphing at the Blackwater too.  Melisandre is seemingly confused by this aspect, or easily taken in, but it doesn't seem to occur to her that she's a pawn of something who might, or might not, be messing with her for its own ends.  Since it is unseen, it's difficult to really pare it up with the concerns of men.  It might not even be a sentient force, but rather Melisandre's subconscious being fed by whatever inherent power she can use.  

 

However, in this instance, I do think there is an animating force with a purpose behind this, but the purpose might not have anything to do with installing any particular person on any particular Throne, or with the concerns of man.  

 

ETA:  About half the darned time this really seems to just be a story about power.  The struggle for it.  The changes that occur within someone as they think they are getting closer to achieving it.  What people will do with it.  How it erodes someone.  

 

Stannis started out as a born rule-follower.  He loved his daughter, in his strange, stiff way.  He did what he thought he was supposed to out of a sense of duty and it seemingly never occurred to him to attempt to usurp the throne until Ned Stark, in an attempt to adhere to all that was right, according to his own rulebook, inspired Stannis to believe he was the rightful heir.  I don't know if Melisandre was present in Stannis life before then, but combine the two and whoever Stannis was became the guy who just freaking burned the daughter he loved alive.  He may have convinced himself it was for all that was right, but anyone with sense and reason can see from a distance that the promise of power is part of that decision.  Whether or not it was a conscious motivator.  

 

The ways in which having power, or being promised power, can alter a person are clearly  a big part of this story.  Is Melisandre really any different?  Or more to the point, is the thing that's guiding her any different?  She could be easily persuaded because of the promise of more power.  The thing guiding her may be motivated by exactly that...more power....whatever that might to it.  Not the concerns of men or beasts, just being fed more power. 

Maybe it isn't destiny, maybe it's just appetite. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Totally agree to your post, Shimpy! I liked specially the part where you mention these can be forces that have their own agenda or maybe are not even sentient beings. People just interpret them they way they wish them to be.

 

And yeah, we have seen other "gods" with powers as well. Maybe even the Old Gods, if those are the forces behind Bran's powers. The only ones who actually haven't shown any supernatural power at all are The 7! Hahaha!

[Pallas]

At work and what a joy to look in this great discussion, Choc and shimpy.  Later!  And Llywela, I believe that Westeros was the foundation of all English common law, the unwritten constitution, and especially the still-famous dictum, "KEEP CALM AND BURY ON."

Edited June 10, 2015 by Pallas

[gingerella]

Great post shimp!  What particularly resonated with are these bits:

Also, fairly clearly the god that Jaqen worships -- who he has referred to as the Red god and the Many-faced God, but never as the Lord of Light -- has power, as does whatever animates the White Walkers.  As does whatever the wizard who mutilated Varys, but this point will always be key...

 

Power is not interchangeable with divinity and supernatural power is not proof of divinity.  The Witch that brought Drogo back-ish had power, and thought that it came from a god.   Her god, the lamb god, or whatever that was.   The house of Undying also had power. 

It seems that there is something that is causing the rise of supernatural powers within the kingdoms.  White Walkers, the return of dragons, the strengthening of magical entities.  The Lord of Light being able to reanimate someone multiple times. 

 

Everyone is convinced they are hooked into the Divine, but it an unseen power needn't be divine or demonic.  It's just a powerful thing.  Whatever allows Melisandre to do her thing, is either fickle or screwing with her on purpose, because she saw Stannis triumphing at the Blackwater too.  Melisandre is seemingly confused by this aspect, or easily taken in, but it doesn't seem to occur to her that she's a pawn of something who might, or might not, be messing with her for its own ends.  Since it is unseen, it's difficult to really pare it up with the concerns of men.  It might not even be a sentient force, but rather Melisandre's subconscious being fed by whatever inherent power she can use. 

 

However, in this instance, I do think there is an animating force with a purpose behind this, but the purpose might not have anything to do with installing any particular person on any particular Throne, or with the concerns of man.

To me, this is really fascinating because it points to the Rubik's Cube theory, but in the context of two sides melding into one side now. Where does the religion thread leave off now, and where does the magic thread pick up? They appear to now be intertwined with each other, two threads of a story, now braiding themselves into one tangled thread, messy - more like a single dreadlock as opposed to a neat and tidy braid - and it's unclear to me where one starts and finishes now...interesting...and something to think about other than the depressing shit of any individual storyline right now!

[Pallas]

Such great points, shimpy, Choc and ging, about supernatural events, vs. what some people call miracles.  One and the same?  Never/sometimes/always? 

 

Everyone is convinced they are hooked into the Divine, but an unseen power needn't be divine or demonic.  It's just a powerful thing.  --stillshimpy

 

That says it!   Harking back to gingerella's cube.  Right now in this story, all over its world, at least five things are erupting at once. 

 

1.  Climate change: winter is coming, and word is, it will be one for the ages.  Movement of peoples (Free Folk) and animals (direwolves) from far north to south. 
2.  Magic: resurrections, smoke babies, visions, reanimations, and whatever Root Gods tell their friends to call them.
3.  Mythological creatures returned: While Walkers, zombonis and dragons, the first two of which are also moving south.
4.  Rise of religious fervor and what appear to be new religions, as well as the expansion, zealous reformation, zealous defense, or awakening of the old: Lord of Light, God of Many Faces, Sparrows/The Seven, Root God/Old Gods. 
5.  Political upheaval: too many kings in Westeros; one messianic Queen and just enough dragons in Essos. 

 

"I want to break the wheel," said Dany (who almost alone among the characters, does not seem to follow any religion, including the Seven).  Did she mean, stop it permanently at the slot that says TARGARYEN, or something more?

 

Do the Walkers also feel threatened by the winter that's a-comin' – or by something else?  Could they just be another people in flight, and living off the "land" along the way? 

 

Are there any true gods in this world, or just supernatural forces fitted with Godheads by humanity? 

 

And is this world itself -- the physical world, the planet called "?" -- now struggling to reconcile its own forces of light and darkness?  In the same way that its characters sort out their deities into the divine or demonic, and we parse out the characters (in whole, or in their souls)?  And if so, does this saga believe that these forces can ever be reconciled...or on the other hand, ever exist separate from one another, in our souls or in the world?