Show Analysis: Dr Huang Will See You Now

[Spartan Girl]

Every time “Families” is on, I’m reminded that St. Olivia was always as obnoxious as she is now when it comes to her biases. She automatically jumped the gun on branding that kid a murdering sociopath just because he told one fib about dating the girl his parents forbade him to see. And then it turned out he and Shannon were both victims of unintentional incest due to their parents’ secret affair. As much as I loathed Shannon’s mother for the lengths she went to cover it up and protect her married boyfriend from his involvement in Shannon’s accident, I couldn’t help but feel gratified by how pissed Olivia was when she realized the bitch had been lying to her all along.

[Xeliou66]

I saw Branded recently, and this episode disgusts me, Benson in particular. Benson seems to think that if someone is raped, they should have free reign to break the law and get revenge on their attackers, and that’s appalling. Camille should’ve been locked up for a long time, either in prison or in an institution for raping and branding her attackers, it was sickening that she got off with a slap on the wrist and even more sickening that Camille got to meet her daughter, she was extremely disturbed and shouldn’t be anywhere near her daughter.

A better prosecutor than Hardwick would’ve continued to prosecute Camille for the assaults even after the defense proved she had been raped, vigilante justice shouldn’t be tolerated - I know someone like Jack McCoy, or even Cabot, Novak, Barba or Peter Stone wouldn’t have backed off of prosecuting Camille.

I just found it disgusting how St Olivia seemed to think the men deserved it, even before she found out they were rapists, she thought Camille was the victim. She has major biases sometimes. I just find that episode revolting. 

[wknt3]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I just found it disgusting how St Olivia seemed to think the men deserved it, even before she found out they were rapists, she thought Camille was the victim. She has major biases sometimes.

Did you mean to type "a deep and instinctive empathetic understanding of victims' needs and experiences"?

[Spartan Girl]

On 9/11/2021 at 1:09 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Benson seems to think that if someone is raped, they should have free reign to break the law and get revenge on their attackers, and that’s appalling.

Oh that’s been obvious since the pilot “Payback.” Granted, the corpse in question was a war criminal and deserved what he got, but still.

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Oh that’s been obvious since the pilot “Payback.” Granted, the corpse in question was a war criminal and deserved what he got, but still.

Oh yes St Olivia has always been that way, unfortunately her biases seem to have gotten more egregious as the show has gone on instead of her trying to work on them.

But Branded just infuriates me because no one seemed to acknowledge that what Camille did was wrong - I mean for gods sake, she drugged and assaulted 2 men, going so far as to brand them and shove objects inside of them. Nothing justifies that, I don’t care that the 2 men had raped her years earlier, she was a loon and a danger to the public who needed to be locked up until she had gotten a lot of treatment and was no longer a danger to society. But no one pointed this out - and instead the show treated Camille like some kind of hero, and even worse was her getting to meet her daughter - why the fuck would the adoptive parents let that happen, Camille had no business meeting her daughter, like I said, she was loony tunes, the show treated it as some heartwarming moment, I found it disturbing. Any prosecutor worth their salt would’ve made sure Camille was institutionalized somewhere at the very least, and any SVU cop worth their salt would’ve agreed that was best, but no she apparently got away scot-free. Disgusting pile of shit episode that belongs in the SVU Hall of Shame, it’s one of the few episodes that I almost never rewatch, in fact before I watched it and posted about it I hadn’t seen it in a long time. Rant complete.

[Spartan Girl]

I really am sick of Olivia cherry-picking which parts of the law to enforce. The time to address her biases has been long past due.

I hate that they’re bringing back Stabler just to hook them up. Christopher Meloni and his fine ass both deserve better.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I really am sick of Olivia cherry-picking which parts of the law to enforce. The time to address her biases has been long past due.

I hate that they’re bringing back Stabler just to hook them up. Christopher Meloni and his fine ass both deserve better.

I agree that the show should’ve had St Olivia address her biases - when she became squad leader the show should’ve had her start addressing her biases and working on them to be a better leader, but instead they’ve just gotten worse. Now just about everything St Olivia says and does is the word of god and she is always right and can do no wrong, and it’s just ridiculous.

And yes it makes me sick that they are going to hook up Benson/Stabler, this show isn’t about romance, at least it isn’t supposed to be, it’s supposed to be a crime show, not a romantic soap opera. Unfortunately the writers have given in to the “shippers” on social media and are making the show more about romance than about crime. It’s tarnishing the legacy of not only SVU but the whole L&O franchise, it’s a shame that there are so many people who will only think of current SVU when they hear “Law and Order” instead of knowing about golden era SVU, the Mothership and CI. And anyway, back to Stabler, I really wish they hadn’t brought him back just to have him hook up with Benson, I’m fine seeing him again but I really wish they hadn’t killed off his wife, they clearly did that just so he could hook up with Benson. 

[wknt3]

On 11/21/2021 at 7:49 PM, Xeliou66 said:

OC is definitely a superior show, I enjoyed the storyline about the Albanian mob that they did for their first 8 episodes, but I hate the Wheatley story arc, it’s a dumb ridiculous plot, and I’m flat out dreading this episode. They are bringing in Barba just to pit Benson in between Barba and Stabler, and thus rile up the “shippers” on social media who want a romance between Benson/Barba or Benson/Stabler, they know it will get a buzz on social media and that’s what the showrunners want, they don’t give a shit about a quality story, they just want whatever will get them trending on Twitter. This show has gone completely down the crapper and is beyond stale and predictable, at this point I just hope SVU’s shittyness doesn’t rub off on the Mothership revival, then I will be really pissed. SVU is pretty much beyond saving, Mariska’s ego and poor showrunners have damaged the show beyond repair.

I am replying over here since we are getting into a broader discussion of the show rather than the individual episode. I think what has damaged the show is Mariska's ego - Warren Leight has some stylistic and thematic interests I am not particularly fond of, but he was in charge of Season 17, the first half of which was excellent. And Michael Chernuchin is capable and certainly seemed to realize what had wrong with the show and made efforts to fix it. However Mariska has the leverage and the showrunners' bosses have given them their marching orders - keep her happy without letting her do too much damage as she did in Season 18. Where they do deserve the blame is for the crappy crossovers and chasing the social media buzz - if Mariska was wanting this and it was needed to get her on board she'd be talking it up non-stop and I'm not seeing it.

[Xeliou66]

15 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

I am replying over here since we are getting into a broader discussion of the show rather than the individual episode. I think what has damaged the show is Mariska's ego - Warren Leight has some stylistic and thematic interests I am not particularly fond of, but he was in charge of Season 17, the first half of which was excellent. And Michael Chernuchin is capable and certainly seemed to realize what had wrong with the show and made efforts to fix it. However Mariska has the leverage and the showrunners' bosses have given them their marching orders - keep her happy without letting her do too much damage as she did in Season 18. Where they do deserve the blame is for the crappy crossovers and chasing the social media buzz - if Mariska was wanting this and it was needed to get her on board she'd be talking it up non-stop and I'm not seeing it.

I think it’s a mix between Mariska’s ego and the show runners that are dragging the show down - I think Mariska is the biggest force, she has way too much influence over the show and it’s notable how the show changed in season 15 when she became a producer and Benson became the squad leader, suddenly there was a ton of focus on Benson and a lot of Mariska’s personal agenda being put into the show, that was when we started getting heavy Benson worship from other characters and a lot of glorification of Benson.
So while I think Mariska’s influence is the biggest problem, the showrunners are also an issue - they focus too much on soapy crap and frequently trash characters just for the hell of it, I mean there’s no excuse for how Barba and Peter Stone were written out of the show, both of which happened under Churnuchin’s watch, and Leight loves Rollins drama and soapy relationship stuff, plus he has a strange hard on for trashing the DA’s office which is really getting on my nerves. This season has been a load of garbage so far - almost all Benson and Rollins, unoriginal, predictable cases, poor writing for the legal stuff, forced crossovers with OC etc. Fin has been window dressing and while Velasco has some potential he’s barely gotten anything to do so far as well. 

[Pearson80]

On 11/23/2021 at 8:17 PM, wknt3 said:

I am replying over here since we are getting into a broader discussion of the show rather than the individual episode. I think what has damaged the show is Mariska's ego - Warren Leight has some stylistic and thematic interests I am not particularly fond of, but he was in charge of Season 17, the first half of which was excellent. And Michael Chernuchin is capable and certainly seemed to realize what had wrong with the show and made efforts to fix it. However Mariska has the leverage and the showrunners' bosses have given them their marching orders - keep her happy without letting her do too much damage as she did in Season 18. Where they do deserve the blame is for the crappy crossovers and chasing the social media buzz - if Mariska was wanting this and it was needed to get her on board she'd be talking it up non-stop and I'm not seeing it.

Why was Mariska given so much power in the first place?  She is an actress, she is there to bring to life what the writers write, period..  I wonder how much better the show would have been if Mariska was told to stay in her place. 

[CrystalBlue]

13 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

Why was Mariska given so much power in the first place?  She is an actress, she is there to bring to life what the writers write, period..  I wonder how much better the show would have been if Mariska was told to stay in her place. 

She became an executive producer, which gives her financial responsibilities.  She is also a director of the show.  When Mariska gained all that power, all hell broke loose.  She is also a philanthropist which she ties into Law & Order: SVU with her Joyful Heart Foundation.

[Xeliou66]

11 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

She became an executive producer, which gives her financial responsibilities.  She is also a director of the show.  When Mariska gained all that power, all hell broke loose.  She is also a philanthropist which she ties into Law & Order: SVU with her Joyful Heart Foundation.

I think Mariska demanded to be made a producer and have more influence over the show as part of her contract and they gave in to her. It’s very notable how when Mariska got all that power, the show starting revolving more and more around Benson, other characters started constantly singing the praises of St Olivia, and a lot of scenes started happening of Benson providing “words of wisdom” for people and saving the day, and many times that was just a promotion for Mariska’s Joyful Heart Foundation. The show has become nothing more than a vehicle for Mariska to promote herself and her foundation, stroke her ego and push an agenda. She’s damaged the show beyond repair, and I think the only people who really love modern day SVU are the die hard Mariska/St Olivia fans, everyone else realizes the show’s quality has gone down the drain and people who follow it closely know who’s mainly to blame - and that’s Mariska and her gigantic ego.

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think Mariska demanded to be made a producer and have more influence over the show as part of her contract and they gave in to her. It’s very notable how when Mariska got all that power, the show starting revolving more and more around Benson, other characters started constantly singing the praises of St Olivia, and a lot of scenes started happening of Benson providing “words of wisdom” for people and saving the day, and many times that was just a promotion for Mariska’s Joyful Heart Foundation. The show has become nothing more than a vehicle for Mariska to promote herself and her foundation, stroke her ego and push an agenda. She’s damaged the show beyond repair, and I think the only people who really love modern day SVU are the die hard Mariska/St Olivia fans, everyone else realizes the show’s quality has gone down the drain and people who follow it closely know who’s mainly to blame - and that’s Mariska and her gigantic ego.

AKA the die-hard Elliot & Olivia (EO) shippers.

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

AKA the die-hard Elliot & Olivia (EO) shippers.

Yes there are those, plus those who just love St Olivia and are indifferent to Stabler, plus the Rollins/Carisi shippers, can’t forget them. That’s who loves the show now, those parts of the fanbase. Everyone else sees that the show is not very good right now.

[wknt3]

On 11/23/2021 at 9:04 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I think it’s a mix between Mariska’s ego and the show runners that are dragging the show down - I think Mariska is the biggest force, she has way too much influence over the show and it’s notable how the show changed in season 15 when she became a producer and Benson became the squad leader, suddenly there was a ton of focus on Benson and a lot of Mariska’s personal agenda being put into the show, that was when we started getting heavy Benson worship from other characters and a lot of glorification of Benson.
So while I think Mariska’s influence is the biggest problem, the showrunners are also an issue - they focus too much on soapy crap and frequently trash characters just for the hell of it, I mean there’s no excuse for how Barba and Peter Stone were written out of the show, both of which happened under Churnuchin’s watch, and Leight loves Rollins drama and soapy relationship stuff, plus he has a strange hard on for trashing the DA’s office which is really getting on my nerves. This season has been a load of garbage so far - almost all Benson and Rollins, unoriginal, predictable cases, poor writing for the legal stuff, forced crossovers with OC etc. Fin has been window dressing and while Velasco has some potential he’s barely gotten anything to do so far as well. 

Fair enough. I agree that there have been some bad choices by the EPs, it's just that from what I can gather the worst choices have been forced on them and they have been pushing back in various ways against Mariska's worst tendencies. If Mariska could get over herself we'd have something like OC - better than replacement level level television with some deeply annoying quirks and foibles. And I don't think that ANY showrunner could do more than about 10% better given the mandates from above, which is still pretty poor.
 

On 11/25/2021 at 6:07 PM, Pearson80 said:

Why was Mariska given so much power in the first place?  She is an actress, she is there to bring to life what the writers write, period..  I wonder how much better the show would have been if Mariska was told to stay in her place. 

She was given so much power because there is  research showing that a significant portion of the audience that still watches is only there to see what happens to Benson. So if she decides to call it day the series is done. That's usually why a star is given so much creative control/input. I disagree that an actor's only job is to deliver the writer's material - television is a collaborative art form and there is room for the performer to have a voice in the storytelling process. The problem comes when an actor who doesn't understand the difference between acting and activism or what good writing really is is given too much control over the storytelling process. It's not unique to Mariska (heck it's not even unique to current network police procedurals. Tom Selleck over on Blue Bloods has done much the same thing) but that doesn't make it any better. As far as how much better the show would be go back and watch the first half of Season 17 and it will give you a pretty good idea, That was about the last point where Mariska was the star and the focus without being the dominant creative force. And it was pretty good, given the budgetary restrictions imposed on the show.

Edited November 28, 2021 by wknt3

[Xeliou66]

Fallacy was just on, this is a tough episode to watch because of Cheryl Avery’s plight, she really got a raw deal because the law couldn’t properly address her situation as a trans woman who was born male. She should’ve been able to go to a woman’s prison. And I’m not sure if she deserved to be convicted or not, she did kill a man because he was going to reveal she was transgender, I’m not sure if that would’ve placed her in imminent danger or not, it’s a tough call. The judge did give her the option of serving her sentence in protective custody and given that she would’ve only gone to jail for 5 years she probably should’ve accepted that offer, her attorney was a snake as they said and just wanted to use the case for publicity. Very tragic case, and one that’s tough to watch, society has advanced on the issue of transgender rights since then but there’s still far too much bigotry against trans people.

Speaking of bigotry, Stabler was a disgusting bigot in this episode. He was really an ignorant jackass at times, and it amazes me how some fans of the show still like Stabler despite claiming to hold progressive views. I guess Stabler being attractive to them outweighs his bigotry. Personally, I liked that the show had characters express unpleasant views at times, because it made it more real, there are plenty of police with backwards, bigoted views on some issues, and it was much more real when the show acknowledged that rather than having all the characters be super enlightened as they are now. And I do think Stabler evolved on LGBT issues over the years and he wasn’t always like this towards them.

I really liked Arthur Branch’s cameo in this episode, I liked how he reminded Cabot it was better her try the case than someone else who might put her gender on trial. I know Arthur is a polarizing character amongst L&O fans but I like him despite disagreeing with a lot of his views, I found him to be pretty fair minded overall and a good DA.

Very tough episode overall, I know this is a long post but I find the episode very interesting and one of the most difficult to rewatch.

[Xeliou66]

So I’m really curious - with the show coming back this week and the Mothership coming back as well, and since we know Jack McCoy will be the DA now, I have to wonder, what will SVU do with regards to their writing for the DA’s office? Will they stop trashing the office and stop making snide remarks about Carisi’s bosses in every episode? Or will it continue with the Mothership and SVU basically taking place in different universes where on SVU they continue to trash the office while on the Mothership it’s portrayed as respectable? Somehow I have a feeling they will continue to trash the office, because I don’t think the SVU writers know how to write legal stuff any other way and they have a bizarre hard on for trashing the DA’s office, so I bet they don’t change it, which will be absolutely disgraceful and stupid, but what else is new with SVU, the writing usually sucks because they are more concerned with making St Olivia look good than with good writing.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I say this with the disclaimer that I do generally like the Rollisi relationship and the family fluff scenes as much as any shipper, but I honestly cannot see Rollins and Carisi having a long-term happily ever after. Their relationship seems very surface level to me, like high school antics. “Oh we made out in the courthouse and no one knows we’re together; OMG so cute!”

And last night’s episode where they had a huge fight because after nine months they’re still hiding their relationship and haven’t figured out what kind of family/unit they want to be kind of proves that. I mean if the kids are asking you guys need to talk about this more openly with both the kids and the adults around you. I’m a product of divorce, and yeah it’s rough going with stepparents and blended families, but my mom and dad didn’t keep secrets when they were getting serious with my stepfather and stepmother, respectively. 

Or maybe I’m just weary of insecure immature female characters on shows at this point. I honestly just think there’s not enough to hold this relationship together forever. 

[Xeliou66]

Some season 4 and season 5 episodes were on today, I watched a couple and this show was so much better then, and I also thought about how the show was somewhat darker then - yes the show has always dealt with dark subject matter, but now there are way too many he said/she said rape cases and the perps are more smug and entitled and sometimes cartoonish rather than chilling and evil. Back in the earlier seasons, they had meatier cases with more investigation and more twists and the characters, perps and victims alike, were more compelling. Now so many episodes are just cliched stories where a pretty young white woman gets raped by a wealthy smug douche she knows, and Benson convinces her to come forward and holds her hand through the process, the perp is brought to justice at the end and the victim thanks St Olivia for everything.

As I’ve said before, the show is now more of a vehicle for Mariska to promote herself and push various agendas than a crime procedural. I really wish we could have more cases like we had in the earlier seasons, darker stuff and stuff where the perp wasn’t known from the beginning. But Mariska, and the writers, love the he said/she said rich white people cases because they allow St Olivia to get on her soapbox the most and play the hero the most. It’s such a shame MH’s ego has taken over the show and the writing has turned to mostly shit. 

[Spartan Girl]

Watched “Home” yesterday and it’s still one of the better ones. Marilyn Nesbit was a piece of shit. Her “I’m always right because I’m the mother” attitude at the expense of her own children never fails to chill me.

And it also makes St. Olivia’s “sometimes parents do know best” defense of the antivaxxer mom in “Selfish” even more tone-deaf in hindsight. Marilyn was basically starving her kids because she claimed processed food was “unhealthy” and keeping them isolated from the world because it was so “dangerous”, and just like the antivaxxer mom, accused the government of trying to police her despite the fact that she was controlling her children despite the harm to their physical and mental health. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

So since season 23 is done here is my analysis of the good and the bad of the season - 

What Was Good

The second half of the season was much better than the first half. The stories were much more interesting for the most part in the second half than in the first half, we got a wider variety of stories and the writing was noticeably better, up until the season finale that is.

Fin. It goes without saying he is great, and is frequently the best part of the show. It’s just a shame he didn’t get to take center stage in a single episode.

Replacing Kat with Velasco. Kat had potential but it was all wasted, she became a one note obnoxious crybaby and I was relieved when she left. Velasco is a major improvement over her, they aren’t trying too hard with Velasco to make him a certain way, he’s not overly naive or a super cop, he’s just a good detective who’s learning about the world of SVU.

Carisi was good when acting as a lawyer, unfortunately the writing for the legal stuff was shaky (more on that below), but Carisi is a good ADA overall.

They introduced/brought back some recurring characters which was nice to see.

What Was Bad

The first half of the season sucked - out of the first 10 episodes, there’s only one I would consider a quality episode, episode 7 with the creepy serial killer was good, the other 9 were weak. That’s a pretty atrocious start.

The trashing of the DA’s office in the first half of the season. A total disgrace to the continuity of the franchise, and a cheap, pathetic plot device on the part of the writers, I have no idea why they did that, and then boom it suddenly stopped as soon as the Mothership came back and said Jack McCoy was DA, and then Carisi’s bosses became a lot more sympathetic and understanding when they were shown. Really, really poor writing to trash the office in the first place, and one of my least favorite things Warren did during his time as showrunner.

Benson, for all of the usual reasons. Everyone worshipping her, she’s never wrong, she gets a ton of attention, Noah gets a ton of attention, it just drives me nuts, she is hard to stomach now.

Replacing Garland with McGrath. Very poor move, I think they screwed up by making Garland a regular when he didn’t need to be in every episode, then they had to get rid of him to cut costs, and they replaced him with a cardboard one dimensional bureaucrat whose sole purpose seemed to be to make Benson look better. They tried to make McGrath more tolerable as the season went on but it’s a disappointment to have a one note jackass as chief now instead of a multilayered character like Garland or Dodds.

The Rollins/Carisi relationship. I just don’t like them together, I find it forced, and I’m afraid Carisi is starting to lose his edge as ADA and will start to acquiesce to everything Rollins/Benson want. It waters down the show to have the ADA and a detective in a relationship.

The 5 main characters were rarely all in the same episode together. 

The season finale left a really bad taste in my mouth - it was more of a soap opera than a crime show, and it sets up season 24 to be filled with soapy drama for Benson and a Benson/Stabler/Barba love triangle with a side dose of Rollins/Carisi. Ugh. 
 

Overall this season was truly a mixed bag - the second half was much better than the first half up until the season finale, but the season finale left a terrible taste in my mouth and had all of SVU’s worst qualities present, leaving me dreading season 24. The show did some good things like bringing back a good amount of recurring/returning characters, but they did some bad things like trashing the DA’s office until the return of the Mothership forced that to stop.

It’s hard to pick my favorite episode, but I liked most of the second half of the season. My least favorite episode was the season finale, oh and Nightmares in Drill City was awful as well.

I hope for the best in season 24, but I’m prepared for the worst. 

 

[Spartan Girl]

“Betrayal’s Climax” was on, and oh how I loathe Manny. Not doing anything to stop the rape was one thing, but slut-shaming Avery to excuse covering his own ass with the gang? Unforgivable. Even when the gang attacked her and her parents, he still wouldn’t do anything until he found out that they were the ones that killed his brother.

Don’t get me wrong, he didn’t deserve to die just when he finally did the right thing. But I hate how the writing of the ending lionized him into some big hero, with Avery lamenting that she should have told him she still loved him when she had the chance.

Uh…SHE DID. The last time she saw Manny in person, she was begging him to tell the truth, that she loved him and the orgasm she experienced  during the rape didn’t mean anything. He was the one that acted like he didn’t love her anymore and told her to her face “nothing happened that you didn’t want.” And that stupid ending just glossed over that.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

“Betrayal’s Climax” was on, and oh how I loathe Manny. Not doing anything to stop the rape was one thing, but slut-shaming Avery to excuse covering his own ass with the gang? Unforgivable. Even when the gang attacked her and her parents, he still wouldn’t do anything until he found out that they were the ones that killed his brother.

Don’t get me wrong, he didn’t deserve to die just when he finally did the right thing. But I hate how the writing of the ending lionized him into some big hero, with Avery lamenting that she should have told him she still loved him when she had the chance.

Uh…SHE DID. The last time she saw Manny in person, she begging him to tell the truth, that she loved him and the orgasm she experienced  during the rape didn’t mean anything. He Was the one that acted like he didn’t love her anymore and told her to her face “nothing happened that you didn’t want.” And that stupid ending just glossed over that.

Betrayal’s Climax was one of the better episodes of season 15 - which was the season we lost Munch and Cragen and that was bogged down in a ton of soapy drama with Benson, Amaro and Rollins, it was the start of SVU going into full blown St Olivia worship and soapy drama IMO, but I did like Betrayal’s Climax, and I completely agree with your loathing Manny, he was a coward and a shitbag who didn’t deserve to be loved by Avery. The ending kind of annoyed me as well - Manny was not a good person, he didn’t deserve to be murdered but he did belong in prison for what happened.

[Pearson80]

On 10/26/2022 at 4:09 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Betrayal’s Climax was one of the better episodes of season 15 - which was the season we lost Munch and Cragen and that was bogged down in a ton of soapy drama with Benson, Amaro and Rollins, it was the start of SVU going into full blown St Olivia worship and soapy drama IMO, but I did like Betrayal’s Climax, and I completely agree with your loathing Manny, he was a coward and a shitbag who didn’t deserve to be loved by Avery. The ending kind of annoyed me as well - Manny was not a good person, he didn’t deserve to be murdered but he did belong in prison for what happened.

Does anybody know why season 15 had so much changes? I really think that Cragen and Munch leaving changed the show in so many ways that were not good.

Amaro could have been better if he was not a Stabler clone. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Pearson80

[Xeliou66]

Just now, Pearson80 said:

Does anybody know why season 15 had so much changes? I really think that Cragen and Munch leaving changed the show in so many ways that were not good.

Amaro could have been better if he was not a Stabler clone.  I always thought he was so creepy when it came to Rollins. 

I think the writers just chose to write out Munch and Cragen due to their age, and I wonder if Mariska had something to do with it - after all season 15 was when she became a producer I believe and it’s when the show started becoming all Olivia all the time, it was in season 15 that Benson became the squad leader and Noah was introduced in season 15, I think season 15 was the start of the show devolving into the weak show it is now, with a heavier focus on soapy drama and a heavier focus on Benson and her pushing agendas. 
I agree Amaro could’ve been so much better had they not turned him into a Stabler clone, he had potential at the start but it quickly went downhill, and him and Rollins deserved each other, they were both unprofessional, arrogant screw ups who got away with a lot of shit because of being close to Benson.

[Pearson80]

16 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think the writers just chose to write out Munch and Cragen due to their age, and I wonder if Mariska had something to do with it - after all season 15 was when she became a producer I believe and it’s when the show started becoming all Olivia all the time, it was in season 15 that Benson became the squad leader and Noah was introduced in season 15, I think season 15 was the start of the show devolving into the weak show it is now, with a heavier focus on soapy drama and a heavier focus on Benson and her pushing agendas. 
I agree Amaro could’ve been so much better had they not turned him into a Stabler clone, he had potential at the start but it quickly went downhill, and him and Rollins deserved each other, they were both unprofessional, arrogant screw ups who got away with a lot of shit because of being close to Benson.

I never understood Olivia's devotion to Amaro.  She made excuses for him that would have made sense had it been Stabler..

Amaro was so creepy when it came to Rollins. He was so possessive of her in an unhealthy way. It was like he was trying to control her because he felt he had none with his wife at home.  It did not surprise me that his wife ran for the hills and got away from him. I really hated how he treated Cassidy and was green with envy.  His jealousy was rooted in his closeness with Benson.  I liked Cassidy with Benson, she was so vulnerable and it made her likeable. I always felt that he was her best relationship on the show. 

Rollins should have been a foil to Olivia in the series because it would have balanced Olivia's haughtiness as the series continued..

Edited October 29, 2022 by Pearson80

[Xeliou66]

7 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

I never understood Olivia's devotion to Amaro.  She made excuses for him that would have made sense had it been Stabler..

Amaro was so creepy when it came to Rollins. He was so possessive of her in an unhealthy way. It was like he was trying to control her because he felt he had none with his wife at home.  It did not surprise me that his wife ran for the hills and got away from him. I really hated how he treated Cassidy and was green with envy.  His jealousy was rooted in his closeness with Benson.  I liked Cassidy with Benson, she was so vulnerable and it made her likeable. I always felt that he was her best relationship on the show. 

Rollins should have been a foil to Olivia in the series because it would have balanced Olivia's haughtiness as the series continued..

Agreed - Amaro was something of a possessive, controlling creep, remember how he went after the guy who he thought was sleeping with his wife and it turned out his wife had been talking to the guy about her PTSD because she didn’t think she could talk to Amaro about it? She stormed into the squad room and knocked over his desk, and Munch quipped “that’s why I stopped marrying Italian women!”. But yes Amaro tried to control his wife and Rollins, and he was just an angry douche. Rollins had potential at the start as well, but then they introduced her god-awful family and started having her behave unprofessionally to the point where the character became a total mess. Like I said, her and Amaro deserved each other, toxic screw ups. It still pisses me off that Rollins and Carisi wound up getting together, I’m just glad Rollins will be gone soon so at least we won’t have to deal with her crap onscreen anymore, and hopefully Carisi will get quality scenes with the others instead of mainly being Rollins boyfriend. 

[Mislav]

Happy Halloween!

With how over the top the show has gotten, I'd like to see them drop all pretenses and go full sci-fi, if not supernatural. I'd like to see a Halloween episode where they deal with teenage girls with telekinetic powers, like in Carrie.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mislav

[Grrarrggh]

Just saw the episode Confidential from series 11 and it disgusted and enraged me. It's beyond the pale that lawyers (other than in Massachusetts apparently) are required by law to protect their clients when the lawyer has proof their client is guilty. Then the episode piled on with selfish, lazy, hypocrite Stabler. AND, just in case all that wasn't enough, Judge Donnelly has to jump in and act horribly.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Grrarrggh

[Xeliou66]

On 11/9/2022 at 12:23 PM, Grrarrggh said:

Just saw the episode Confidential from series 11 and it disgusted and enraged me. It's beyond the pale that lawyers (other than in Massachusetts apparently) are required by law to protect their clients when the lawyer has proof their client is guilty. Then the episode piled on with selfish, lazy, hypocrite Stabler. AND, just in case all that wasn't enough, Judge Donnelly has to jump in and act horribly.

The last couple of Stabler seasons were just an over the top mess - tons of plot twists just for shock value and constant melodrama for Benson/Stabler, while they forgot all about every other character. I don’t care for that episode either, and Stabler arresting the lawyer without consulting anyone was just ridiculous. And I never liked Donnelly very much, either as a DA or a judge, she seemed to have a constant scowl on her face and was usually unpleasant. There are a handful of good episodes in the last couple of Stabler years but for the most part the show was ridiculous. Season 13 actually marked a return to more “normal” SVU cases and the show improved for a couple of seasons until it became all about St Olivia. 

[Spartan Girl]

Olivia’s hypocrisy in “Sunk Cost Fallacy” is so bad it would be hilarious even if wasn’t so infuriating. All the times she was more than happy to let victims take the law in their own hands, yet when Alex does it, suddenly Olivia just has to follow procedure? 🤦‍♀️

[Pearson80]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:51 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Olivia’s hypocrisy in “Sunk Cost Fallacy” is so bad it would be hilarious even if wasn’t so infuriating. All the times she was more than happy to let victims take the law in their own hands, yet when Alex does it, suddenly Olivia just has to follow procedure? 🤦‍♀️

Olivia always excuses bad behavior by women who have been rape victims and she has crossed the line so many times that it always seemed that she was a sponge during the Stabler years and absorbed all of his bad traits.

What is it with Mariska's whispering for dramatic effect, it just cracks me up whenever she does this acting tick as Olivia..

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

Olivia always excuses bad behavior by women who have been rape victims and she has crossed the line so many times that it always seemed that she was a sponge during the Stabler years and absorbed all of his bad traits.

What is it with Mariska's whispering for dramatic effect, it just cracks me up whenever she does this acting tick as Olivia..

Olivia is the queen of hypocrisy, she has broken the rules and the law numerous times, and yet she is quick to condemn others when they cross the line. And yes she seems to believe being raped entitles a woman to break the law. She acts more as a victim’s advocate than a police captain. And now there’s no one to balance her out, which is the main problem with the show, used to Stabler, Munch, Huang, Cragen etc were around to give different opinions and perspectives on things, now it’s all St Olivia, everyone on the show exists to kiss her ass, and her word is the word of god.

And yeah I don’t think Mariska can act very well and she’s gotten worse over the years, her whispering and over the top facial expressions are laughable. 

[Spartan Girl]

Stabler at least gets called out on his crap. Whenever anyone tries to do the same with Olivia, it's either shrugged off or she's made out to be "right all along" to justify her biases.

[Xeliou66]

44 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Stabler at least gets called out on his crap. Whenever anyone tries to do the same with Olivia, it's either shrugged off or she's made out to be "right all along" to justify her biases.

Yep, and I think this has everything to do with MH becoming a producer and having a tremendous amount of power over the show. In the older days of the show Olivia could be wrong and people could disagree with her without being made into villains. Now she’s right 100% of the time and anyone who dares to question her is either a villain or converts to the church of St Olivia by the end of the episode.

[Leeds]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:35 AM, Xeliou66 said:

And yeah I don’t think Mariska can act very well and she’s gotten worse over the years, her whispering and over the top facial expressions are laughable. 

I just had the misfortune of watching an episode of E.R. where Hargitay plays a girly, naïve, sex kitten to Anthony Edwards' Dr. Greene.  Nauseating. 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Leeds said:

I just had the misfortune of watching an episode of E.R. where Hargitay plays a girly, naïve, sex kitten to Anthony Edwards' Dr. Greene.  Nauseating. 

Oh, yeah. Cynthia Hooper with the insanely long hair and constant whining and crying. Riveting. (Should be pointed out that the EP on ER then was Neal Baer, who would ultimately become the EP of SVU in its early years, so I'm guessing he liked MH. Unless it was a coincidence, which is also possible!)

[Pearson80]

6 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Oh, yeah. Cynthia Hooper with the insanely long hair and constant whining and crying. Riveting. (Should be pointed out that the EP on ER then was Neal Baer, who would ultimately become the EP of SVU in its early years, so I'm guessing he liked MH. Unless it was a coincidence, which is also possible!)

Cynthia Hopper was despised the fans of ER if I am not msistaken.

I thought that Hargitay was really good in the early years when the show had good writers and she was acting opposite Christopher Meloni as Stabler.  Olivia and Stabler really balanced each other.

[WendyCR72]

31 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

Cynthia Hopper was despised the fans of ER if I am not msistaken.

I thought that Hargitay was really good in the early years when the show had good writers and she was acting opposite Christopher Meloni as Stabler.  Olivia and Stabler really balanced each other.

All ol' Cindy (okay, she was never called that on the show - always Cynthia!) Hooper did was cry, screw Mark Greene, then cry more because she was just a fuck buddy and Mark didn't wub her.

I recall she was briefly a desk clerk in the ER. Cynthia Hooper made me appreciate Jerry and Randi a hell of a lot more. LOL!

And yeah, fans of ER hated her mopey/borderline psycho (IMO!) ass. So, there's that!

[Mislav]

Merry Christmas!

[TakomaSnark]

I wasn't quite sure where to put this but am watching 'Non-Compliance' from season two now and while I know SVU's portrayal of paranoid schizophrenia is controversial, I still think this is a Top Ten episode for me. Elevated particularly by Kathleen Chalfant's performance (astonishing she's never been nominated for an Emmy, one of the true character MVP actors of modern times, especially in the L&O universe).

[Mislav]

Happy New Year!

[Xeliou66]

 

12 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

I wasn't quite sure where to put this but am watching 'Non-Compliance' from season two now and while I know SVU's portrayal of paranoid schizophrenia is controversial, I still think this is a Top Ten episode for me. Elevated particularly by Kathleen Chalfant's performance (astonishing she's never been nominated for an Emmy, one of the true character MVP actors of modern times, especially in the L&O universe).

I like Noncompliance, it’s a good episode with some good twists, and fun fact, it’s ME Warner’s first appearance! But one of my favorite episodes, arguably my favorite episode of all time, was on right before it today, Legacy - this episode is fantastic, very sad case about the abused little girl in a coma but really well done - I love all of the detective work by the squad to figure it out, good roles for every detective and Cragen, and Munch was particularly great in it, it was him who got the confession from the mother, and his scene on the roof where he told Benson why the case affected him so much was really moving - Munch is such an awesome character, beneath all of the cynicism and humor he had a lot of empathy. Plus, we got a couple of scenes of the always awesome Skoda consulting with the squad! (Skoda was in Noncompliance as well for that matter). This was just SVU at its finest. Season 2 had almost all great episodes, but Legacy is a top 5 all time episode of SVU for me. I really wish the show was still this excellent. 

[TakomaSnark]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

I like Noncompliance, it’s a good episode with some good twists, and fun fact, it’s ME Warner’s first appearance! But one of my favorite episodes, arguably my favorite episode of all time, was on right before it today, Legacy - this episode is fantastic, very sad case about the abused little girl in a coma but really well done - I love all of the detective work by the squad to figure it out, good roles for every detective and Cragen, and Munch was particularly great in it, it was him who got the confession from the mother, and his scene on the roof where he told Benson why the case affected him so much was really moving - Munch is such an awesome character, beneath all of the cynicism and humor he had a lot of empathy. Plus, we got a couple of scenes of the always awesome Skoda consulting with the squad! (Skoda was in Noncompliance as well for that matter). This was just SVU at its finest. Season 2 had almost all great episodes, but Legacy is a top 5 all time episode of SVU for me. I really wish the show was still this excellent. 

Belzer deserved an Emmy nod for 'Legacy.' I know that he and his brother suffered physical abuse from their mother as children and I've no doubt he tapped into a lot of that pain to deliver that performance.

[Xeliou66]

40 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Belzer deserved an Emmy nod for 'Legacy.' I know that he and his brother suffered physical abuse from their mother as children and I've no doubt he tapped into a lot of that pain to deliver that performance.

Yep, he was awesome in Legacy. I know a lot of Munch’s past was similar Belzer’s real life past and Munch had a tumultuous home life as a child, and that scene on the rooftop where Munch tells Benson about why the case affected him so much was really memorable. Legacy may very well be my favorite SVU episode - it was really terrific and very sad. Season 2 may be SVU’s best season, I just really wish the show was still high quality like it was in the early years.

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I just really wish the show was still high quality like it was in the early years.

Same. Other than Barba, there's really no compelling reason to watch the later seasons. It's just The Olivia Benson Show.

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

Same. Other than Barba, there's really no compelling reason to watch the later seasons. It's just The Olivia Benson Show.

The show really lost a lot when Cragen and Munch left, but the writing has taken a nosedive as well - the cases have taken a backseat to making Benson look good and focus on her personal life. I feel like they’ve watered it down some as well - they want every episode to have an uplifting ending of Benson saving the day, I miss when used to things didn’t have to end on that note, take Legacy for example, why they solved the case and caught the perp, it was still a sad ending with the little girl in a coma likely never to wake up. I wish there were more of a variety of cases and endings, but good writing has taken a back seat to making Benson look good. 

[Pearson80]

I thought "doubt" in season 6 was a good episode because it explored the biases of Both Benson and Stabler.  The lady who accused the man of rape was not a sympathetic victim to say the least especially after she accused Stabler of inappropriate touching after he took her home. 

The man who was accused of rape was a college professor  who was a philanderer who had romances with his students so he had no problems with engaging in relationships with women that could be deemed inappropriate.

Benson automatically took the lady's side while Stabler who was going through a separation with his wife was skeptical of the rape victim because of her shady past.  Both Benson and Stabler at different times in the episode shifted from their original opinions because they had doubts.  The nuanced storytelling would never happen today because Benson is always right. In this episode she had doubts about the victim's veracity when it came to her accusations. I absolutely loved the ending when we the audience had no idea if the jury sided with the victim or the accused because it faded to black as the verdict was being read..

Honorable mention goes  to Viola Davis as a tough defense attorney even if it was a small role and the actress who played the attorney for the rape victim who accused Stabler of harassing her client.  

Edited January 3, 2023 by Pearson80

[WendyCR72]

58 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

Honorable mention goes  to Viola Davis as a tough defense attorney even if it was a small role and the actress who played the attorney for the rape victim who accused Stabler of harassing her client.  

I ♥ Viola Davis. But I think her Criminal Intent role as Terry Randolph in "Badge" in Season 1 was sooo chilling. A bitter security guard (who failed to get ahead as a "real" cop) using fellow dirty "real cops" to smear a local official and murder him and his entire family [and trying to make it appear he had killed said family] for personal gain was epically cold.

Her "frugal" speech directed at Goren was top notch.

Glad she was spread around the franchise, though. She has the talent!

[Cloud9Shopper]

I’m not watching the new episodes these days but the makeup job on Olivia’s black eye as I can see in promos is awful. It looks like a five-year-old painted it on and called it a day. Probably the worst style choice this season aside from Rollins’ Duggar-esque wedding dress.