One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[amensisterfriend]

i didn't hate season 7

 

Me neither! I've often admitted that I like S7 more than S5 and a million times more than S6. Depending on my mood, I even prefer much of it to S1. (Talk about unpopular!) I actually think Luke and Lorelai were better off broken up then, think the actors play a broken up couple who may eventually repair their friendship FAR more convincingly than they did an "in love" couple, saw tons of chemistry and even compatibility between Lorelai and Chris, and appreciated that S7 made Rory more likable to me than she had been for a few seasons. And I share your love for Santa's Secret Stuff. I also love Farewell My Pet, That's What You Get Folks for Making Whoopee, Will You Be My Lorelai Gilmore, etc. I like more episodes from S7 than I do from S5 and S6 combined :) 

Edited December 20, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[junienmomo]

Lorelai is wonderful? Don't think so.

I snapped tonight for some unknown reason and started listing the reasons why Lorelai is the worst girlfriend ever. I used mostly Season 5 and her relationship with Luke just for an example. She wasn't any better to e.g. Max.

I stopped when I got tired. Season 6 doesn't improve her performance at all.

 

• She refused to believe it when people repeatedly told her Luke had a thing for her
• She let Taylor and Kirk distract her when Luke was trying to close the loop on their first kisses
• She couldn't be bothered to drive 5 hours to see her new boyfriend during his seven week absence to care for injured relatives
• Lorelai still wants coffee after she put on the floor show in the diner
• Her facial reaction to the "all in" speech is baffling, and she doesn't verbally respond
• She is disappointed that there isn't gossip about them
• Luke defends their relationship alone in the town meeting while she just sits and watches
• Lorelai thinks the town has a point when the town doesn't like their co-mingling
• Eating at the diner is more important than eating food cooked by Luke at home
• She puts Jackson's campaign HQ in the diner, and plans the party, but says in front of Sookie "sleeping with you is getting me nothing" when he tells her it's impacting her business
• After being told that he hates champagne and dating him for a while, she can't remember that he sleeps early some nights and hates the bubbly
• She shanghais him into a double date, then calls him out on his attitude when it doesn't go well, and allows the Bop-it debacle
• She lies to him about small things, like reasons she hasn't changed the porch light
• She laughs at him when he injures himself on the oven
• She tells Rory, but not Luke when she spends an evening at her ex boyfriend's apartment
• She lets her mother abuse Luke when he comes to dinner, compared to Rory refusing to let Richard abuse Dean in the same situation
• She hinders rather than helps Luke get rid of TJ
• She invites her ex-boyfriend to lunch at the Dragonfly without telling Luke
• She tries to manipulate Luke into going to Patty's party instead of just asking
• She buys the boat rather than offering her garage and letting it be his decision
• She spends a night at christopher's house without telling Luke
• She lets Rory lie about it to Luke
• She doesn't respect Luke's need for time to think, but pressures him into an answer
• She interprets his early answer as a breakup without asking if it's what he meant

[Gooey]

Junienmomo, that certainly is a hardcore list of Lorelai transgressions. But some of those things were down to her own insecurities and misguided 'heart in the right place' behaviour. Nobody is perfect.

 

Namely one Luke Danes:

 

- says he's 'all in' but bails at the first sign of trouble

- leaves the Gilmores' wedding reception in a huff without allowing Lorelai the chance to explain. Leaving her without a ride in the process

- reacts explosivley to Chris' message on the answering machine but refuses to discuss his anger and instead passive-agressively makes a scene in front of Sookie & Jackson before storming off mid argument (again)

- keeps April a secret from Lorelai for two months

- keeps April a secret from Lorelai for two months right after HIS insistence they not keep secrets from each other

- introduces April to Jess before introducing her to Lorelai

- makes a derogatory comment to Lorelai about her getting pregnant at 16yrs

- only has the guts to go back to Lorelai after Emily Gilmore tells him it's what he should do

 

Nothing is black & white and nobody can be expected to be perfect all the time. But Lorelai certainly wasn't the only character in GG to show inconsideration, selfishness & pure ignorance at times.

[amensisterfriend]

Instead of letting myself get sucked into a Luke vs Lorelai thing, I'll just say that one reason I have the UO of disliking them as a couple is that they seemed to make each other perpetually annoyed and unhappy (granted, Lorelai is annoying, and Luke is perpetually angry and miserable anyway!) and brought out the least likable sides of each other more often than not. And gooey, I agree with your list wholeheartedly and am resisting the urge to add a few items that you forgot ;) 

 

I totally respect that the L/L relationship is vitally important to so many of my fellow fans' love of the show, but it was always WAY down on my list of things that make GG special for me. Even before they got together romantically---when I used to really enjoy their friendship and didn't know how depressingly devoid of chemistry and compatibility I'd find them as a couple---the L/L dynamic was never the heart and soul of the show for me. 

Edited December 20, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

Lorelai is wonderful? Don't think so. I snapped tonight for some unknown reason and started listing the reasons why Lorelai is the worst girlfriend ever.

 

I think Lorelai would probably be better off single---as would Luke---and agree she definitely had issues in relationships, though I certainly wouldn't call her 'the worst girlfriend ever.' But it's kind of a straw man argument, because I don't think anyone's ever declared Lorelai anywhere near the BEST girlfriend ever, and even her biggest fans readily acknowledge that she has tons of flaws. I'm certainly on board with the idea that thinking Lorelai is a flawless girlfriend and infallible human being would be unpopular, though! 

Edited December 20, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[dustylil]

I must say I didn't fault Lorelai for not making the long trip to Maine to see Luke when he was off RenFair-ing it. She was in the middle of a business start-up with a hapless partner  at the height of the summer season. Leisure time would have been scarce for her at best. As well, even if she had had the time, it might have seemed to her to be somewhat pushy and presumptuous to go and visit him. After all, they had  been out together once and only afterward was it determined to be a "date". They had briefly kissed. What exactly was their relationship?

 

In terms of the April secret, in addition to the points raised by amensisterfriend concerning Luke's conduct  and his secret-keeping one thing always bothered me - when Rory was visiting the diner for the first time after The Great Sulk and some days after Luke learned the results of the science fair project, there was this exchange -

RORY: So, Luke, wait! You haven't told me anything about yourself. What's new with you?

LUKE: With me? Uh, nothing. We're engaged, your mom and me.

RORY: I know that, but anything else?

LUKE: No. No, why?

RORY: Just wondering.

LUKE: What have you heard?

RORY: Nothing. That's why I'm asking.

LUKE: Well, there's your answer. Nothing. Nothing's new.

 

A straightforward question met with a straightforward lie. There was nothing to prevent  him from saying, yes there is something new - and as soon as I can discuss it with your Mom, I'll tell you too. But of course he did no such thing. The only person he told and whose counsel he sought was Liz. A person well known for her firm grasp on how to handle sensitive issues with those closest to you.

 

I do entirely agree that Lorelai had a number of faults as a girlfriend. But then Luke had quite a number himself  as a boyfriend to both Lorelai and Rachel and as a husband to Nicole as I have commented on elsewhere.

[txhorns79]

A straightforward question met with a straightforward lie. There was nothing to prevent  him from saying, yes there is something new - and as soon as I can discuss it with your Mom, I'll tell you too.

 

I don't think Luke could really be faulted for not getting into the subject of April with Rory, or even hinting at the topic.  It certainly wasn't her business at that point, and Luke himself was just adjusting to the situation.  I mean, honestly, if someone asks you what is new with you, do you believe yourself a liar if you don't immediately start spilling all new personal information, regardless of whether you want to discuss it?     

 

That isn't to say Luke shouldn't have told Lorelai much sooner than he did, but he doesn't have that same duty to Rory. 

Edited December 21, 2014 by txhorns79

[blackCatCollins]

dropping by with another unpopular opinion- i didn't think Lauren was robbed for never receiving an Emmy (or nom? i don't keep up with awards shows.) i think the part was tailor made for her, and i can't picture anyone else doing it, but i never thought she was doing award-caliber work.

 

please don't hurt me.

[junienmomo]

Table for two, blackCat. 

It was a monumental effort, for sure. No way would I put that down. 

What was most noticeable for me was she would drop the emotion from her eyes before she had finished expressing the sentiment. Her brain was probably moving on to the next situation. Understandable due to the immense work load, but not Emmy material.

[Kohola3]

Set a place for me at the table as well.  She had a wonderful ability with the rapid fire dialog but not sure that's what makes a great actress.  She didn't have a great range of emotions even when they were called for.  On the other hand, this wasn't Hamlet so great acting wasn't really required.

[amensisterfriend]

Is there room for a fourth?! I've said the exact same thing. I think LG playing Lorelai was the ideal match between that specific actress and role. Beyond that, though, I haven't been impressed with Lauren Graham's acting at all. And, honestly, she comes across as kind of ditzy and annoying in real life :-)

[blackCatCollins]

i'm so glad i've found my people here! maybe we should get a banquet sized table...

[HeySandyStrange]

I guess I should pull up a chair.  I also think Lauren's real personality appeared pretty close to Lorelai's, so I don't know that if her acting was ever that much of a stretch for her.  I don't watch Parenthood but I have heard it mentioned that she doesn't do anything different with that character then she with Lorelai, so I'd take that to mean she doesn't have that much range.  IMO, the only thing GG probably should have been nominated for (in the earlier seasons) was the writing.

[amensisterfriend]

I actually have a somewhat opposite UO re Alexis Bledel---I always hear her trashed as a 'terrible' actress and even have friends who claim she's the reason they can't take GG seriously, but I actually think her work as Rory was really underrated. Her facial expressions and line deliveries were, IMUO, nearly perfect for that role. Granted, she looked painfully awkward when trying to express affection around any boyfriend other than Jess and her attempts at crying tended to be cringe worthy, but overall I think she was perfectly cast and can't honestly say I'd have wanted any other actress to play Rory. 

[txhorns79]

I don't watch Parenthood but I have heard it mentioned that she doesn't do anything different with that character then she with Lorelai, so I'd take that to mean she doesn't have that much range.

 

She does play the characters in a very similar fashion.  Though I think part of the problem is less Lauren Graham and more that the Parenthood writers did a fairly poor job fleshing out the character, so she fell back onto what she already knew worked. 

 

Though, I will say that Kelly Bishop was given an unsympathetic character and gave her real depth at times, so I thought she was the strongest actress on the show. 

 

 

I actually have a somewhat opposite UO re Alexis Bledel---I always hear her trashed as a 'terrible' actress and even have friends who claim she's the reason they can't take GG seriously, but I actually think her work as Rory was really underrated.

 

I think Bledel was mostly fine in the role, so long as it didn't call for anything beyond making quips and the occasional light drama.  I do think she struggled at times when the scene called for a more complicated reaction.  Like when Rory has to see the psychiatrist when she returns to Yale, I never was certain if we are supposed to view her scene with the shrink as a joke, or if we were supposed to believe she was really upset over those issues.

Edited December 21, 2014 by txhorns79

[Tangerine]

She does play the characters in a very similar fashion.  Though I think part of the problem is less Lauren Graham and more that the Parenthood writers did a fairly poor job fleshing out the character, so she fell back onto what she already knew worked. 

 

Though, I will say that Kelly Bishop was given an unsympathetic character and gave her real depth at times, so I thought she was the strongest actress on the show. 

 

I think Bledel was mostly fine in the role, so long as it didn't call for anything beyond making quips and the occasional light drama.  I do think she struggled at times when the scene called for a more complicated reaction.  Like when Rory has to see the psychiatrist when she returns to Yale, I never was certain if we are supposed to view her scene with the shrink as a joke, or if we were supposed to believe she was really upset over those issues.

 

The Gilmore parents were definitely the strongest actors on the show.

 

I thought Bledel was awesome in the earlier seasons. She played the intelligent, bookish, socially-awkward teenager really well but when it came to her more complicated Yale storylines it really showed some of her weaknesses. I watched "The Incredible Sinking Lorelais" last night, and her breakdown scene with Dean was really rather awkward and painful. Especially contrasted next to Lorelai's breakdown right after, which while I don't think was all that spectacular either, was a lot more believable.

 

As much as I disliked Jess, I thought out of the younger characters that MV was the strongest actor. Jess could have easily turned into a bad cliche, and to be honest he was written a little thin, but I thought MV had a lot of charm and was able to portray nuance.

[txhorns79]

I watched "The Incredible Sinking Lorelais" last night, and her breakdown scene with Dean was really rather awkward and painful. Especially contrasted next to Lorelai's breakdown right after, which while I don't think was all that spectacular either, was a lot more believable.

 

I think the problem with that episode was that it treated Lorelai and Rory's issues as though they were equal, and tried to play them both in the same manner.  Even for the best actress, which Alexis was not, it was going to be a challenge to make having to drop a class seem on par with the possibility of bankruptcy and your business failing.   

[Aloeonatable]

 

As much as I disliked Jess, I thought out of the younger characters that MV was the strongest actor. Jess could have easily turned into a bad cliche, and to be honest he was written a little thin, but I thought MV had a lot of charm and was able to portray nuance.

 

I have to agree. I give MV all the credit for creating a character that was more than what was written. 

[readster]

  I agree that Milo really gave Jess foundation. He could have turned into a cliche and even when he was being written to fit with the P's TV series that was never greenlit to begin with. Then when they did the full back track with Jess getting his own bookstore and putting his character back together. MV really put the charm that was Jess to begin with back into the character. Sad to say, too bad Dean could never be written this way. You can tell Jared tried but he had a better time bringing his character on Supernatural into his own verses Dean who... was turn into a cheating, bitter, scraping jobs together, college dropout

  Speaking of unpopular opinion, I hated that Dean had to drop out of college because his "wife" wanted a townhouse, having fun and didn't think for one second: "You know, maybe we should finish school up first." 

[amensisterfriend]

I'm always struck all over again by my UO that the males on this show were actually pretty awful overall. (And so, not coincidentally, was the portrayal of romance!) In one respect it's almost a refreshing complaint to have, since on the vast majority of shows it's the female characters who tend to be poorly or under-written. But something I wrote on the Jess/Rory thread just triggered all over again how the overwhelming majority of guys on GG were angry, bitter, petulant, jealous, poor communicators to the point of being deceptive, entitled, unpleasant, and/or just plain dull. It's really interesting to me that a few of our new viewers were struck by that when they started watching for the first time, asking whether we're even SUPPOSED to like and root for any of the male characters :) The sad thing is that AS-P seemed to find temperamental, bitter, jealous men amusing and often even some sort of romantic ideal. 

 

My related UO here---and, fair warning, it's very, very U---is that I've grown to like Jackson a whole lot less than I used to. The last thing this show needed was yet another guy prone to constant temper tantrums and freak outs, even when they were depicted primarily for comic relief! 

Edited December 23, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[readster]

I'm always struck all over again by my UO that the males on this show were actually pretty awful overall. (And so, not coincidentally, was the portrayal of romance!) In one respect it's almost a refreshing complaint to have, since on the vast majority of shows it's the female characters who tend to be poorly or under-written. But something I wrote on the Jess/Rory thread just triggered all over again how the overwhelming majority of guys on GG were angry, bitter, petulant, jealous, poor communicators to the point of being deceptive, entitled, unpleasant, and/or just plain dull. It's really interesting to me that a few of our new viewers were struck by that when they started watching for the first time, asking whether we're even SUPPOSED to like and root for any of the male characters :) The sad thing is that AS-P seemed to find temperamental, bitter, jealous men amusing and often even some sort of romantic ideal. 

 

My related UO here---and, fair warning, it's very, very U---is that I've grown to like Jackson a whole lot less than I used to. The last thing this show needed was yet another guy prone to constant temper tantrums and freak outs, even when they were depicted primarily for comic relief! 

 

 What I believe destroyed Jackson and Sookie's characters: "Oh yeah, I didn't get snipped after you paid the nurses to drag me to an operating room." "Yeah, my boys are still swimming." "What? You're pregnant again?" "Cool!" Sookie: "Yeah, oh well, guess I shouldn't have thought that telling nurses to drag you to a doctor to get  vasectomy didn't make sense. Or the fact that no nurse would do that or any doctor would just think that was possible."

[amensisterfriend]

Yeah, that was pretty widely considered awful....I think they were both annoying long before that, though! Honestly, Sookie and Jackson start to grate on me as early as S4, if not even sooner. 

[readster]

Yeah, that was pretty widely considered awful....I think they were both annoying long before that, though! Honestly, Sookie and Jackson start to grate on me as early as S4, if not even sooner. 

Yes, don't forget Sookie's gree mac and cheese and having Jackson drive her in a go cart train because she feared her kitchen would be unsettled by Luke because she was on bed rest. Don't forget Sookie letting that horrible Nanny basically kick Jackson out of the house. When THEY WERE THE PARENTS!

[amensisterfriend]

And while I'm rambling about Jackson and Sookie-related UOs, can I just say that for all the (often understandable) flak Lorelai gets for being self-centered, narcissistic and immature, I think Sookie was roughly a million times worse as a business partner? She'd blow off responsibilities without even apologizing, obsess and whine about her kitchen like it was always the ONLY aspect of the business that deserved any financial support and attention, seemed pretty ridiculous in her interactions with other staff members, flipped out on a few customers when annoyed (or pregnant!), assumed Lorelai would always handle every single concern that wasn't directly related to cooking, etc. I get that GG exaggerates a lot for comic effect, but seriously, there were at least a few different occasions when I would have fully understood Lorelai telling Sookie that they could no longer be business partners if they had any hope of remaining friends.   

[txhorns79]

assumed Lorelai would always handle every single concern that wasn't directly related to cooking, etc.

 

I actually kind of get Sookie's mindset as to this issue.  Sookie has no experience or background in running an inn.  I can see why she would think this would mean her job was limited to cooking, dining and food related issues.  After all, it wasn't like Lorelai was going to step in and start prepping meals if Sookie was put out of commission.  This isn't to say Sookie didn't need to get a clue, but I could see where she was coming from.      

 

I think Lorelai and Sookie's big failure as business partners was a failure to communicate, and clearly spell out their roles. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by txhorns79

[readster]

I actually kind of get Sookie's mindset as to this issue.  Sookie has no experience or background in running an inn.  I can see why she would think this would mean her job was limited to cooking, dining and food related issues.  After all, it wasn't like Lorelai was going to step in and start prepping meals if Sookie was put out of commission.  This isn't to say Sookie didn't need to get a clue, but I could see where she was coming from.      

 

I think Lorelai and Sookie's big failure as business partners was a failure to communicate, and clearly spell out their roles. 

Oh I completely agree. If anyone knew their exact role in anything with was Michele. He knew how to be the manager, what it would include and how to work around if anything came up in his personal life. Speaking of UO, the only problem I ever saw with Michele was the fact he told Luke back in Season 7: "Oh, its you." "I thought we were done with you." That was so not Michele, if anything, he saw Lorelai as a friend and was never really keen on the drama around her and Christopher or even Richard and Emily. He liked to just worry about his job and his life but was a person to talk to. Michele came off in that one scene along the lines of: "Why would you ever say that to anyone?" 

[MaiSoCalled]

An unpopular opinion inspired by the nitpicking thread:

I like that Rory lost her virginity to her married ex boyfriend. 

 

I like that it was messy and completely wrong and not portrayed as romantic. I liked that the 19 year old Rory, the child of a single mother, wouldn't grasp the significance of a wedding ring as an adult would. I like that her first time was a story she'll either have to tell with shame or edit in retellings. It's a sharp contrast to Paris sleeping with her high school boyfriend who loved her, or Lane waiting until her honeymoon. Rory's first sexual experience was very stupid and a huge mistake. I like that the show let that happen.

 

And I liked that Dean and Rory proved to be so incompatible is season 5. The entire experience was a disaster and that made sense to me. 

[amensisterfriend]

MaiSoCalled, I love that perspective on it and actually agree what much of what you wrote. As is often the case with GG, my problem was not so much with the storyline/ideas as with the actual execution. And that it was with Dean :) I never saw a connection between Rory and Dean in the first place---not even in those supposedly halcyon S1 days, though I swear that I tried to---so Rory's attempt to recapture their "love" (because she felt lonely and insecure at school) fell flat for me, even though I get it in theory. 

[Taryn74]

It's a sharp contrast to Paris sleeping with her high school boyfriend who loved her, or Lane waiting until her honeymoon. Rory's first sexual experience was very stupid and a huge mistake.

 

And I liked that Dean and Rory proved to be so incompatible is season 5. The entire experience was a disaster and that made sense to me.

 

What a great perspective.  Thank you for that, it will help me digest the end of S4 and beginning of S5 much better now.  I was too busy hating the circumstances to really look at the story it told.

[amensisterfriend]

Another UO: I have my share of gripes about S1 (too cutesy and precious, too much of vain, juvenile Lorelai, and way too much Dean and Max!), but my UO is that I think a disproportionate number of the series' very best Luke/Lorelai scenes and interactions came in that very first season, and that Luke himself was by far more appealing then than in any subsequent season. When I give the UO that Luke/Lorelai didn't have much romantic chemistry, the first season is often a pleasant exception to that rule :) 

[HeySandyStrange]

 

An unpopular opinion inspired by the nitpicking thread:

I like that Rory lost her virginity to her married ex boyfriend. 

 

I actually don't have a problem that Rory did lose her virginity to the very married Dean.  The story line was fairly realistic, with their relationship falling apart yet again after they realized they had nothing in common. Where it went wrong for me was that Rory received very little to no blow back because of it, other then the show down between Lorelai and Lindsey's mom. The fact that for the most part she got to keep being Princess Rory after that was a little much to swallow and took me out of the story.

[dustylil]

Not only was there no blow back from Rory sleeping with Dean, by the sixth season the whole matter appears to have been forgotten by the showrunners themselves in light of this exchange.

RORY: She found out we're having sex.

LOGAN: How the hell did she find that out?

RORY: I told her minister.

LOGAN: But-but why would you do that?

RORY: Because he was going on and on about my virtue being a gift. And now you have it, so I'm gonna have to buy the next guy a sweater.

 

[Aloeonatable]

That exchange between Logan and Rory makes me think that Logan never knew that Rory had slept with Dean. He must have thought she was a virgin. Did we ever hear them discussing her previous sexual relationship? 

[BC Mama]

Not only was there no blow back from Rory sleeping with Dean, by the sixth season the whole matter appears to have been forgotten by the showrunners themselves in light of this exchange.

My interpretation of that dialogue was that Rory "owed Logan a sweater" because her virtue was gone before they were together!

[txhorns79]

by the sixth season the whole matter appears to have been forgotten by the showrunners themselves in light of this exchange.

 

Actually, if you look at the rest of the episode transcript, Rory doesn't tell the minister to whom she lost her virginity.  Rather, she just tells him that ship has sailed, and assumptions apparently were made by he and Emily, since Rory was spending so much time with Logan.  Rory just never corrected the assumption, and really, there was no reason for her to do so.  It wasn't like Emily would suddenly turn the page on Logan if they learned he was the second guy Rory had slept with.   

 

I did like that the show was willing to have Rory make such a bad decision with Dean.  I also liked that her later relationship with Dean failed, because they were in two very different places by that time, and couldn't replicate whatever they had during high school.  I did agree that it was odd there wasn't more gossip about what had happened between she and Dean within the town, but I suppose Rory wasn't living there full time, so that probably took the fun out of the situation for the people who would get pleasure from talking about it.       

[readster]

Actually, if you look at the rest of the episode transcript, Rory doesn't tell the minister to whom she lost her virginity.  Rather, she just tells him that ship has sailed, and assumptions apparently were made by he and Emily, since Rory was spending so much time with Logan.  Rory just never corrected the assumption, and really, there was no reason for her to do so.  It wasn't like Emily would suddenly turn the page on Logan if they learned he was the second guy Rory had slept with.   

 

I did like that the show was willing to have Rory make such a bad decision with Dean.  I also liked that her later relationship with Dean failed, because they were in two very different places by that time, and couldn't replicate whatever they had during high school.  I did agree that it was odd there wasn't more gossip about what had happened between she and Dean within the town, but I suppose Rory wasn't living there full time, so that probably took the fun out of the situation for the people who would get pleasure from talking about it.       

 

 

 What really got me was that Emily and Richard were so naive about Rory and Logan having sex. I mean, really what did they think the two of them were going to be doing? Not to mention, as much as the truth about Dean wasn't revealed it was also not like she didn't have a long relationship with both Dean and even several months with Jess for that matter. Emily basically had a heart attack when it was revealed back in the first season that Rory stayed with Dean all night after the dance. It really was just showing that Emily and Richard had this bubble they wanted to live it and wanted to control and with the revelation that Rory was having sex who was close to 21 at the time was like someone had set a bomb off in their house. 

  Speaking of UO and characters having sex. I will never to this day ever understand Paris and her relationship with her professor. Ok, it was Michael York, he aged well is a great actor, ect. However, you are really trying to tell me that Paris went from having a good relationship with her ex to just jumping into her professor and then going: "I have a real man." I was like: "Just stop, oh please!" What really got me with the entire story line was Paris knew the esteem doctor had a history of relationship with younger students. Even worse the entire Yale staff was just swoon at him with his speeches like he was Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc. Yale had a history of professors being found out with relationship with students and many lost tenure or their jobs. Then of all things, he left his estate of Paris to then sort through his family? I will never understand the need or want for the story line. When she ended up with Dole, that made plenty of sense. Speaking of which, I hated they dropped all of Rory and Paris's roommates after freshman year. It wasn't like the actresses were doing other shows. I really loved the dynamic they brought to the show and to Rory and Paris's college life. Then we get the BFFs in the final season, who were really, really bad. 

[dustylil]

My understanding (and I know I will quickly be corrected here if I am wrong) was that Paris was never a direct student of Asher Fleming. I would think therefore that prohibitions against romantic entanglements did not apply to them.

As to the relationship itself, I could understand it. If he had been her first serious boyfriend, I would have been more concerned  but he was not. But she was not a naïve young thing. Paris had already dated a college boy when she was still in high school so she seemed to gravitate toward older fellows. While someone Richard Gilmore's age (!) would not appeal to most young women, she had precious few actual attachments with grown-ups  - given that her parents had all but abandoned her by the time she got to Yale. I can see her wanting to combine romance with a connection with a sophisticated, older intellectual.

And if I recall correctly, theirs was a relationship of love and mutual respect with no lies, deceptions, or actual temper tantrums. Made for a nice change :)

Point of clarification - Asher didn't leave his estate to Paris. He left her his manuscripts and apparently that printing device. For whatever reason she was the one stuck handling the administrative details after his death.

[txhorns79]

Emily basically had a heart attack when it was revealed back in the first season that Rory stayed with Dean all night after the dance. It really was just showing that Emily and Richard had this bubble they wanted to live it and wanted to control and with the revelation that Rory was having sex who was close to 21 at the time was like someone had set a bomb off in their house.

 

I think a lot of their reaction in both situations had to do with their fear of repeating Lorelai's experience.   

 

 

And if I recall correctly, theirs was a relationship of love and mutual respect with no lies, deceptions, or actual temper tantrums. Made for a nice change :)

 

Aside from Rory, wasn't the relationship kept mostly hidden from everyone?  I remember Paris and one her suitemates fighting, and Paris being unable to respond to the girl's taunts about her lack of a boyfriend, because she and Asher were not publicizing their romance.  That doesn't really sound like a healthy relationship.  Also, IIRC, Paris kept seeing Jamie, lying to him and stringing him along for what looked like a couple of months after she initiated the relationship with Asher.    

 

 

As to the relationship itself, I could understand it. If he had been her first serious boyfriend, I would have been more concerned  but he was not. But she was not a naïve young thing. Paris had already dated a college boy when she was still in high school so she seemed to gravitate toward older fellows. While someone Richard Gilmore's age (!) would not appeal to most young women, she had precious few actual attachments with grown-ups  - given that her parents had all but abandoned her by the time she got to Yale.  I can see her wanting to combine romance with a connection with a sophisticated, older intellectual.

 

I think Jamie was supposed to be a year older than Paris.  I would agree they had a serious relationship (or as serious as two teenagers in a long-distance relationship can make it), but I can't imagine how having been in that one relationship would make Paris ready to date a 60-something.  Specifically, one we were told had a reputation for dating his students.  I though their relationship screamed "daddy issues."       

[readster]

 

Aside from Rory, wasn't the relationship kept mostly hidden from everyone?  I remember Paris and one her suitemates fighting, and Paris being unable to respond to the girl's taunts about her lack of a boyfriend, because she and Asher were not publicizing their romance.  That doesn't really sound like a healthy relationship.  Also, IIRC, Paris kept seeing Jamie, lying to him and stringing him along for what looked like a couple of months after she initiated the relationship with Asher.

 

 That's what makes it worst, Paris pretty much knew it was a bad idea and with Asher, he was having a relationship with someone his grand daughter's age. I really felt bad for Jaime, he really didn't do anything wrong and when Paris ended up with Doyle in the end. She got what she wanted in-between, an older, educated boyfriend that was pretty much a fall in relationship. I still feel the roommates were wasted potential for Rory's "breakdown" which was really poorly handled. Many people defended it saying that Rory needed a reality check but she took it like the Dean of Students or the President of the US told her she sucked. It was her boyfriend's father and while he was a big name in journalism. It came off that Rory was so attacked by the entire Hutzburger family except for Logan, Honour and Honour's fiance. She felt like she was crap. Funny considering her other grandparents saw her as non-existent, that would be more damaging and harmful in my opinion. Yet, she defended them even after Strobe died telling her Dad she was so sorry and he was an OK guy. I was like: "What?" He hated you and while you can be sympathetic to your father, your other grandfather was a major ass. 

[amensisterfriend]

Given Paris' lack of father figure, need for validation and great admiration of intelligence and success, her relationship with Asher always made a bizarre, Paris-esque sort of sense to me. I'll get even more unpopular here by admitting that her connecting with Asher made far more sense to me than her relationship with the thoroughly 'normal', conventional and dull Jamie, and Asher annoyed me less than Doyle. I have odd taste :) 

[readster]

Given Paris' lack of father figure, need for validation and great admiration of intelligence and success, her relationship with Asher always made a bizarre, Paris-esque sort of sense to me. I'll get even more unpopular here by admitting that her connecting with Asher made far more sense to me than her relationship with the thoroughly 'normal', conventional and dull Jamie, and Asher annoyed me less than Doyle. I have odd taste :) 

 

 Doyle was annoying and now that you put in Paris's lack of a father in her life, I just realized, all the main characters in this show had a lot of father issues verses mother issues. I mean, Lorelai and Richard, Jess and his father, Rory and Christopher, Christopher and Strobe, Emily's father was apparently always working, Richard's dad died when he was 8. Paris had no father, Marty found out his uncle was his real father, Kirk's dad died young too, Jess's father revealed his dad ran out on him. Luke tried being like his dad, TJ's father was non-existent in his life and after him and Liz's daughter was born he admitted he was going to be more of a father than his own was. Lane's father was never explained why he was never around. Taylor and his brother said they tried being like their father. You can even go as far as Jess's father's girlfriend and her daughter living with them was because her ex-husband walked out on her too. 

   When it comes down to it, Lorelai and Emily and Emily and Trix were really the only "mom" issues on the show. Christopher's mom barely ever spoke. 

[amensisterfriend]

Yeah, ITA, it goes along with the vast majority of the show's love interests/male characters in general ranging from blah to moderately awful, IM(U)O :) The female characters were deeply flawed, but also generally gifted with tons of strengths and talents and just very vibrant. The male characters? Not so much :) 

[readster]

Yeah, ITA, it goes along with the vast majority of the show's love interests/male characters in general ranging from blah to moderately awful, IM(U)O :) The female characters were deeply flawed, but also generally gifted with tons of strengths and talents and just very vibrant. The male characters? Not so much :) 

 

 Perfectly said. I love flawed by gifted characters. However, with most of the male characters they were so flawed they were laughable and sadly Luke went that way too and Jess. They went from flawed but good people to: "Please leave town." 

[Taryn74]

Given Paris' lack of father figure, need for validation and great admiration of intelligence and success, her relationship with Asher always made a bizarre, Paris-esque sort of sense to me.

 

I never had a problem with Paris and Asher.  Honestly, I think the fact that nobody except Rory (and the ones Rory told) knew they were dating was a positive rather than a negative.  Given Asher's reputation for dating students, the fact that Paris wasn't the subject of school-wide gossip told me this relationship was different, that he took her more seriously than the girls who had flung themselves at him in the past.  And Paris genuinely cared for him, you could tell.

[txhorns79]

I never had a problem with Paris and Asher.  Honestly, I think the fact that nobody except Rory (and the ones Rory told) knew they were dating was a positive rather than a negative.

 

I think for me, there was just such a power imbalance between the two, that it made it hard to accept them as a plausible couple. 

 

 

When it comes down to it, Lorelai and Emily and Emily and Trix were really the only "mom" issues on the show.

 

I would add Lane and Mrs. Kim to that list, obviously to a lesser extent than Lorelai and Emily. 

[dustylil]

Readster, do you recall from what episode you picked up on that Richard's father died when he was eight? There has been some controversy on the timing of the passing of Charles Gilmore on these threads.

[Kohola3]

I don't believe Richard was a child when his father died. He made reference to a hand-tailored suit that he was never able to wear again because he had worn it to his father's funeral. To me, it sounded like he was an adult.

[takalotti]

I would add Lane and Mrs. Kim to that list, obviously to a lesser extent than Lorelai and Emily.

Also Jess and Liz.

[readster]

Also Jess and Liz.

Yes and then magically they healed when Liz called him that Luke still had his car. Revealing that Jess couldn't work things out with his dad so he came back. So, remember kids, the moral of the story is. If you have problems with a parental member in your family just live with them briefly and you will heal the problems with your other parent. 

[readster]

I don't believe Richard was a child when his father died. He made reference to a hand-tailored suit that he was never able to wear again because he had worn it to his father's funeral. To me, it sounded like he was an adult.

Did some checks on IMDB and several fan wikis. Charles died when Richard was 10 and he had outgrown his custom made suit before he could wear it. So, I was off by 2 years but Richard has been without a father since he was 10, pre-teen years. 

Edited December 26, 2014 by readster