S05.E08: Hardhome

[WhiteStumbler]

I still think the more logical storyline would have been for them to bust through one of the umpteen gates in the Wall that are not currently manned. Just sayin'.

This has been bugging me for a while now, so I went and found the ANSWER to this apparent plot hole.

 

From S3E08 Second Sons:

 

(In the abandoned windmill, with a thunderstorm moving in)

Bran: How are we going to get past The Wall? My uncle said it's 700 feet high. How did you get past it?

Osha: Got in a boat and rowed past the Bay of Seals.

Bran: It would take us two months to get to the Bay of Seals.

Osha: Some climb straight up the ice.

Bran: Even Hodor's not strong enough to climb The Wall with me on his back.

Hodor: Hodor!

Jojen: 19 castles guard The Wall. Only three are still manned.

Hodor: Hodor!!

Jojen: One of those abandoned fortresses will give us a way through.

Bran: My uncle said the gates were sealed with ice and stone when the castles were deserted.

Meera: Well, we'll have to open them up again.

 

Later they meet up with Sam, who comes up thru the hidden sallyport in the Nightfort that he read about in an ancient text.

[Anothermi]

I think Hodor was very thoughtful in his input to that discussion. Especially the part about climbing a wall with Bran on his back. Eloquently said.  ;-)

 

WS? You da BOSS!

[stillshimpy]

You really do rule, Stumbler :) 

[janjan]

I add my obeisance to the mighty Stumbler.

[ChocButterfly]

Why in the world would anyone ever name a place Hardhome?  Was Sucky Place to Dwell too hard to spell?  Admittedly, nearly every place in the Seven Kingdoms has a painfully on the nose description as a name.  Winterfell.  Kings Landing.  But then other places don't.  Casterly Rock.  Whereas I'm assuming there's a rock present, I have no clue what a Casterly might be.

 

Bolding mine. You forgot the most self explaining name of all: THE DREADFORT!!!

[stillshimpy]

Oh gods, good point.   That one really is "let me hammer it home....have you seen our banner, by the way?"  

[janjan]

So it takes two months to get from the windmill to the Bay of Seals, and not long for the FF raiders on foot to get from the windmill to Castle Black. So the windmill is near Castle Black, and Jon and Tormund therefore required about two months to get to the sea? And thousands of wet FFs are gonna walk two months to get to Castle Black? The logistics alone are staggering. Poor Wum Wum. I hope he gets enough to eat.

 

ETA: Wait a minute. Our annal maester reports that Jon told Tormund he could ride to Hardhome from Castle Black in 10 days. Either Osha is extremely slow or else they've suspended the laws of physics.

 

I think the Iron Born are modeled on the Vikings, what with ships and raiding the shores and being obnoxious. FF might be Sami (nomadic Lapplanders), except for no reindeer.

Edited June 3, 2015 by janjan

[ChocButterfly]

Maybe I'm kind of slow today, but I still don't understand why they need to get to Castle Black. They can go through the coast to the other side, like Stannis did. They have the ships now. Heck, maybe they'll get faster to Winterfell that way. The Iron people got to Winterfell by boat.

 

And speaking of Winterfell, are they going to support Stannis against the Boltons? I never got that part clear, since I thought that's why Stannis lent them the boats. In fact, he said he'd be waiting for them. However, Jon never mentioned it to the Wildlings when he was making his proposal. He said he'd only ask them to fight on their side when the time comes, but he meant against the WW, didn't he?

[Llywela]

I've given up trying to understand the timeline on this show.

 

Hardhome to me has a very Viking ring to it - both the name and the design of the place, with the longhouse and everything. Which leads me to suspect that the Wildlings are, in part at least, modelled on Vikings. Except for the thing about not having any ships with which to evacuate their people and flee south.

[gingerella]

Then again, we have Point No Point WA

Leave it to our trusty White Stumbler to cite one of my all time fav places on planet earth!

 

WS, you are fast becoming the Spitball Wall's Sam the Wizard, studiously reviewing the ancients transcripts of A Show for your brothers of the Spitball Watch to learn and heed from. I bend the knee to you, my friend.

 

Also, related to sealing the unmanned Wall gates with "ice and stone", that sounds all hunky dory IF it had been perpetually Winter for a long time, but since we know Bran was born in Summer and Winter has been coming only recently (well, recently as the crow flies, no pun intended), one would assume that even the thickest ice may have melted during the long Summer...so many holes, so little details...*sigh*

[WhiteStumbler]

I believe that the abandoned windmill and the village where Ollie lived were in the general vicinity of Castle Black, but two months is way too long to travel from the windmill to Eastwatch By The Sea and the Bay of Seals, even for a small band that is trying to move stealthily.

 

Cersei says it took Cersei, Robert, & Co. "a month" to travel from KL to Winterfell, but this is also unpossible. Yoren said that it was "A thousand leagues from (KL) to The Wall", a league is 3 miles, so, no, a wheeled cart drawn by horses is not going to cover 100 miles in a day. A highly motivated person on horseback with a string of horses might be able to get close to that, but... no.

 

I guess we just have to accept the fact that the world contracts and expands to allow some things to happen and others to be impossible (unless Littlefinger has a Pegasus).

[stillshimpy]

Maybe miles in Westeros are just surprisingly short? ;-)  I am kidding, by the way, it would just explain a lot of the "Littlefinger can apparently teleport.  Neat trick." 

 

Or maybe there are ten Littlefingers.  All clones.  Scattered throughout the Kingdoms.  Kidding.  Don't hit me. 

 

So in more serious speculation: Maester Medical Experiments referred to progress on his work.  Telling Cersei as if it was important to her current situation.  I admit, I don't understand why what seems to be one reanimated dead thing is going to be worth a damn, because it would still be choppable, even if it was unkillable.  

 

Dudes, what if Thorne did take that Zombini hand to KL and his "work" all revolves around figuring out .....and he's accidentally making an Army of the Dead: Southern edition?  Like it got to King's Landing, was stuck in a jar that wasn't busy holding someone's expired infant and stuck in the lab by Pycelle.  Maester Medical Experiments found it crawling around in there and he was off to the creepy races. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

...They have the ships now. Heck, maybe they'll get faster to Winterfell that way. The Iron people got to Winterfell by boat.

I think they traveled overland from the sea to Torhenns Square, and then from there to attack Winterfell, but they were far from the sea and their power-base (ships).

 

S2E08 The Prince of Winterfell

 

Theon: Winterfell is the heart of the North.

Yara: Aye, it is, hundreds of miles from the sea. We're islanders, baby brother. Had you forgotten that? Our power comes from our ships.

 

This leads me to believe that Winterfell is a good distance from any body of water that connects with the sea.

[WhiteStumbler]

Dudes, what if Thorne did take that Zombini hand to KL and his "work" all revolves around figuring out .....and he's accidentally making an Army of the Dead: Southern edition?  ... Maester Medical Experiments found it crawling around in there and he was off to the creepy races. 

There is a distinctly Terminator 2 vibe to this spec. I approve.

[stillshimpy]

Heh, well you know, he was talking to Queen Sarah Conner, after all :-D 

[janjan]

Shimpy: Or maybe there are ten Littlefingers.  All clones.  Scattered throughout the Kingdoms.  Kidding.  Don't hit me.

Thump!

 

No wait, I take it back. I want more Littlefinger. I don't find the magical elements of the story very interesting -- too much like too many other magical/undead/zombie/monsters-on-our-doorstep stories. But Littlefinger and his scheming, Varys and his counter-scheming, Cersei and her attempts at scheming -- that's interesting, because it's not as predictable as humans vs. weird critters, when you know the humans will always win somehow. Or at least escape.

[Anothermi]

 

Dudes, what if Thorne did take that Zombini hand to KL and his "work" all revolves around figuring out .....and he's accidentally making an Army of the Dead: Southern edition?  Like it got to King's Landing, was stuck in a jar that wasn't busy holding someone's expired infant and stuck in the lab by Pycelle.  Maester Medical Experiments found it crawling around in there and he was off to the creepy races. - Stillshimpy

 

 

There is a distinctly Terminator 2 vibe to this spec. I approve.

 

Just a hint of an Adam's Family vibe in the bolded bits too. "Thing" waves Hi. 

 

...it's not as predictable as humans vs. weird critters, when you know the humans will always win somehow. Or at least escape. - janjan

 

Tell that to the freefolk left on the beach!

Edited June 3, 2015 by Anothermi

[DirewolfPup]

gingerella

Cersei says it took Cersei, Robert, & Co. "a month" to travel from KL to Winterfell, but this is also unpossible. Yoren said that it was "A thousand leagues from (KL) to The Wall", a league is 3 miles, so, no, a wheeled cart drawn by horses is not going to cover 100 miles in a day. A highly motivated person on horseback with a string of horses might be able to get close to that, but... no.

 

Wait. I'm confused. It's 1000 leagues (or ~3000 miles) from KL to The Wall (Castle Black I'm assuming). That doesn't mean it's 3000 miles from Winterfell to Castle Black. From the opening credits. The 3 points of our triangle (KL, CB, and Winterfell) make a sort of right triangle. The longest leg is between KL and CB. Based on my loose memory of geometry and credits I'd guesstimate that we've got a 30/60/90 triangle going on. So now we math...

 

Here is a link to the type of triangle I'm talking about (not a spoiler): http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/36500/36542/tri9_36542_md.gif

I couldn't find a triangle oriented correctly to match the map, but pretend it's a mirror of this.

           N = King's Landing

           R = Castle Black

           M = Winterfell

Still with me?

So if the distance between N and R is 3000 miles, we should be able to figure out the distance between the other 2.

     KL to CB = N->R = NR = 3000 miles

     WF to CB = M->R = MR = 1/2(NR) = 0.5*(3000 miles) or 1500 miles

     WF to KL = M->N = MN = 1/2(NR) * squareroot(3) = 0.5*(3000)*sqr(3) = about 2598 miles

 

Cersei said it takes a month to travel from KL to WF so 1 month of traveling via carriage and caravan is about 2598 miles. 

 

(edit: this isn't related. doh)

2598 miles/month = 1500 miles / x  ..... x (meaning the time to get from WF to CB via super awesome carriage) would take about 57.7% of a month or ~18 days.

So now we have to assume how much slower the Bran Muffins are traveling verses a carriage pulled by horses. I'm guessing that with all the sneaking, hiding, and staying off the road, it would take 5x as long, so 90 days or 3 months.

 

Back to the KL to WF trip...

A month is 31 days, ish. 31*24 hours in a day = 744 hours total in a month.

Let's assume half of that is gone to eating, resting, and sleeping. so 372 hours of travel.

2598 miles / 372 hours = ~7 miles per hour. Is this reasonable for a horse drawn carriage?

 

Sound close?

 

/mathgasm complete

Edited June 4, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[Anothermi]

I believe that the abandoned windmill and the village where Ollie lived were in the general vicinity of Castle Black, but two months is way too long to travel from the windmill to Eastwatch By The Sea and the Bay of Seals, even for a small band that is trying to move stealthily.

 

Cersei says it took Cersei, Robert, & Co. "a month" to travel from KL to Winterfell, but this is also unpossible. Yoren said that it was "A thousand leagues from (KL) to The Wall", a league is 3 miles, so, no, a wheeled cart drawn by horses is not going to cover 100 miles in a day. A highly motivated person on horseback with a string of horses might be able to get close to that, but... no.

 

I guess we just have to accept the fact that the world contracts and expands to allow some things to happen and others to be impossible (unless Littlefinger has a Pegasus).

 

Ahh. My favorite - and most long-standing gripe about this show. I am trying my best to accept that fact, but non-acceptance/incredulity keeps rearing its ugly head. :-(

Edited June 3, 2015 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

DirewolfPup! Awesome. A closet math geek! I loved your post. AND it made sense. </nother closet math geek>

[WhiteStumbler]

 That doesn't mean it's 3000 miles from Winterfell to Castle Black.

That is a very good point.

 

As for the rest of your post, I was told there would be no math...?

[janjan]

WS: I was told there would be no math...?

Did Littlefinger tell you that? Heh heh.

 

                 the humans will always win somehow. Or at least escape. - janjan

    

Tell that to the freefolk left on the beach! - Anothermi

OK, not all of them. Although that particular bunch got to live again - maybe even forever!

 

But I can't think of a magical monster story were every single human got wiped out. There would be no one left to tell the story (as omnicient narrator).

[ChocButterfly]

Yo people, I just watched the episode again and, I'm sorry, but it was even more awesomer than I thought!! Bad cgi and all. But I get it, different tastes and all that. And I don't really like zombies stories at all. But I like the sense of dread of this battle and how you realize that all those wars, political schemes and petty rivalries of the rest of the world really won't matter shit when that fucking army crosses that Wall.

 

I did notice a couple of thing though. Wouldn't Dany have noticed that the dude who organized the battle is using slaves? I mean, didn't she see the chains on Tyrion? And if she didn't notice, wouldn't Tyrion have told her? She specifically said only free men would fight, she has banned slavery and everyone knows what she does to slavers. Yet that battle master is not afraid of using slaves in his arena in front of the anti-slavery Queen. Shouldn't he be a bit lmore worried and skip Mereen?

[Anothermi]

Good point about the slaver. He should be more worried I'd think. I got the impression he didn't know Dany would be present at that 1st elimination tournament, but he'd need to be more prepared for surprise visits in the future.

Tyron-in-chains could be explained away by the fact that Tyrion himself stated he was Jorah's prisoner couldn't it?

But that brings back the question of why Jorah re-offered to be a slave? It may just be that he knew the only way he could get back in front of Dany would be as a fighting slave. He probably wouldn't have a chance at entering the Fighting Pits contest as a free man. He'd need money to start with, for equipment and such, not to mention the fact that he's been banished - again.

As far as demonstrating how corruption will find a way, the Fighting Pit Plot is a pretty clear one.

Seems to me there needs to be another subplot for Dany to learn how to control her remaining Dragons because we've seen that the Unsullied aren't up to the job of maintaining order - if they ever were. Seems they were trained to just fight battles until they died. This regular 9 to 5 job is wreaking havoc with their self esteem.

[ChocButterfly]

Agreed. I don't know why Dany hasn't made a bigger effort of learning to train her dragons. I know she has her hands full now, but dragons should be a priority. Plus, that's when being a Queen comes in handy. She should start recruiting researches, scholars or whatever that could find any ancient info about dragons. She should do more searching for anything that might help her, books, wizards, scrolls about ancient valyrians, old artifacts with pictographies, anything! Maybe she should hire Sam, although he's being a bit slow on collecting the info on WW.

[DirewolfPup]

That is a very good point.

 

As for the rest of your post, I was told there would be no math...?

 

There Will Be Math.

 

WW motivation theory: They, too, have heard the stories of Dornish wine and women...

[Pallas]

Thinking of the White Walker army, and Roose's droll remark about the advantages of simply sitting out a siege behind the walls of Winterfell.  "How high can Stannis's horses jump?"  

 

Shudder.