S05.E08: Hardhome

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:

Arya makes progress in her training. Sansa confronts an old friend. Cersei struggles. Jon travels.

[90PercentGravity]

So, Valyrian steel kills walkers, too? I guess that sort of makes sense. Dragon glass comes from Valyria too, yeah? From the DOOOOM. So maybe Valyrian steel is alloyed with iron from the DOOOOM.

 

I know other stuff happened. Jorah was re-exiled. Tyrion was charming. Cersai's screwed. The Bastards a bastard. None of that matter. Because, zombies!!

[janjan]

Freefolk don't wear hats.

Freefolk don't get hypothermic in cold water.

Freefolk elders include a 30'ish woman.

Crows don't keep track of where they put their dragonglass.

WWs attack on cue, just when the director says, "Action."

WWs have rules for a smooth succession when their leader is killed.

One unanswered question: Will a ship sink when a giant climbs aboard?

 

GoT  has officially become a cartoon.

[Pallas]

So, Valyrian steel kills walkers, too?

 

We know of two more Valyrian steel swords: Oathkeeper and "the smaller one" Tywin had made from Ned's sword.  And of the smelter Tywin hired.  Could it be that Tywin's most obnoxious deed may do some larger good?  

 

The zomboni assault it was incredible.  It just kept coming on.  At moments I even felt that Jon might be in peril; while I laughed at myself for the thought, the feeling endured.  I was sorry that Fuck-Men-Woman needed to signal her demise -- "I've just rescued children!  Now I'm going to help old people!  Be right back!" -- and that we knew hers would be the last face we saw rigor-ected.  Still.  That was some battle.  And with the exception of Sansa at Winterfell, every other scene before it was on point.

[DirewolfPup]

This was an amazing episode for me. I'm so glad this season has finally ramped it up.

 

The diologue with Tyrion and Dany reminded me a lot of previous seasons. It was exposition. It was necessary, but it wasn't boring. So happy Jorah was exiled since that made the most sense plot-wise. Dany was not going to forgive him that easily. But why is he staying with the slave master? Hoping every fight will impress on her his utter devotion? Seems like there are more efficient ways to do this.

 

Sansa knows the boys are alive. Reek didn't talk to Ramsey about it this episode. Did he keep that secret? Signs point to no.

 

During the big wight/zombie fight, I was worried about the dragon glass. When Jon's sword broke inside the hut, I thought it was his Valerian steel sword and gasped. I thought, "oh shit! Ice swords can even break Valerian steel! That's bad news." Then, lo and behold, it wasn't his sword. I felt so smug after it didn't break since I figured it out about 3 seconds before it happened.

 

Small whine... very last scene where the heros get on the rowboat. The driver in the cloak never turned around to look, even out of curiousity? Plus, please, for the love of the 7, row a bit faster!

 

Overall, very good episode!

Edited June 1, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[Anothermi]

I was going to complain that they're messing with rule #9 that states the "something Big happens" episode is supposed to be episode 9, but then I realized nothing had really happened that wasn't predictable since episode 1, so I'll forgive them for being premature. 

 

Agree that the interesting freefolk woman signalled her death by the sweet send-off of her children. 

 

Was pleased that Valerian steel can also kill WW. Hadn't considered that - good for your 3 second prescience DirewolfPup!

 

Also glad that Tyrion and Dany were entertaining. She needed something to spice up her scenes. Having Tyrion save Jorah's life but get him banished made me wonder if he's realized that Jorah was infected by the greyscale? If not that, at least I'm hoping Jorah has a plan regarding his infectious status that might benefit Dany. Can't see him re-enlisting as a fighting slave for any other reason. Not sure it's a good plan, but I'm hoping it's a plan of some sort. 

 

Surprisingly happy to see the Lord of Bones smashed to smithereens by Tormund. I seem to be carrying a grudge against that guy. Who knew the older episodes packed such an emotional wallop. <RIP Qhorin HalfHand, and yes I know it was Jon who killed him but I hated the bone guy from back then>

 

The White Walkers are looking surprisingly robust. The new leader seems to be a Sith-cicle/clone. May the Gale-Force be with them. If I didn't know better I'd have thought they were eating the Craster Kids. So it must be that the kid recruits bolstered the Gale-Force which resulted in the healthier looking WW. The earlier ones seemed quite scrawny in comparison. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Dire, I wish I could share your enthusiasm about this episode, but I am squarely with Janjan on this one - A Show has become a laughable, fast forwardable parody of its former self. It is official, this show is fucking lame. Lame. LAME. For realz. Congratulations show runners, way to cock up what was a glorious show into a laughable cartoon version of itself. Dimwitted assholes in charge.

Do you - and by YOU I mean the show runners - know how motherfuckingly difficult it is to remain Unsullied or FIVE fucking seasons?! DO YOU? Do you know what its like to be, say, on a plane and try to shut up a bookwalker who is in ear shot just to remain Unsullied? Do you know how challenging it is to do most of your work on a computer and manage to AVOID SPOILERS all the damn time to remain Unsullied? And for what? So we can be entertained with an army of the lamest, most laughable CGI'd to death (pun unintended) Army of the Dead?!? I mean shit, man, at least when we saw the WWs or whatever the fuck we saw march past Sam, it was scary but not cartoonish and laughable. But this? THIS? It's just a bad joke. It is becoming more and more difficult to justify remaining Unsullied because the payoff is, well, stupid and lame. Whoever is making these decisions on CGI needs to be fired immediately because they suck and have no aesthetic understanding of when things cross over into cartoon territory.

More specifically, I thought the bits and pieces were still too slow to be move this story forward more than a very wee lurch. Arya - interesting but slooooow. Sansa - at least we didnt see her getting tortured again. Theon, just die already FFS. Cersei, mildly deserving, but again, snails pace. Tyrion and Dany? Are.You.Fucking.Kidding.Me? So the Lannister imp saunters into Mereen and Dan makes him her trusted advisor over one round of happy hour drinks? WTF?! If that is her MO, then she is a shitty ruler and doesnt deserve to rule a dragon's fart let alone actual people.

There are currently so many holes in this show story that it stinks like rotting swiss cheese. First of all, where the hell has this army of dead things been hanging out for like hundreds of years or whenever the last Winter was? I mean, where are they in the off seasons when Winter Isnt Coming? And why is their apparent leader leading a dead army in the first place? I mean its not interesting unless I know some back story to this. The show is grossly lacking in being able to tell its story on TV and provide the details required to hold a viewers attention for the long haul. This is a huge flaw the show is suffering from this season. HUGE. H.U.G.E.

Another huge issue I am having is that there are just too many things going on in one episode. I appreciate checking in with this character or that one, but perhaps if TPTB extended the season to a reasonable number of episodes, say 20, we could spend more time in depth with a smaller number of characters per episode, or just have a longer season to delve into the details that feel lacking right now.

Uch, this show has become a tedious and sadly unamusing chore this season. I tire of this pig shite.

Oh, and BTW, White Walkers, Wights, dead thing zombonies - what the hell is the difference between all these cartoon characters, or are they all the same things? If you're going to have a villain in a story, dont have like eleventy versions of them, have one mofo badass villain, not this hot buttered mess. It's not even scary - I'm the biggest scaredy cat of them all, and I'm not scared by this CGI stuff, I'm just SMDH over the stupidness of it. Ruining the portrayal of the MOST OMNIPOTENT BADDIES of this show and turning them into cartoons that are laughable reduces the entire story because the entire friggin story is about WINTER COMING and the EVIL MONSTERS that come with it. So now, its like Winter is Coming, oh, and there's lots of gross looking blue eyed dead soldier cartoon characters, wheeeee!

ETA2: See, Pallas, I didnt even realize that Valyrian steel can kill a WW because my eyes were rolling so far back in my head during that scene. So Valyrian steel and dragon glass are both kryptonite for the army of cartoonish things? It was Valyria where the Stone Men jumped Jorah right? So maybe Jorah will lead a mission to Valyria to get more dragon glass and/or Valyrian steel to fight the cartoon army...just spitballin' while A Viewer calms the fuck down a little bit...

Edited June 1, 2015 by gingerella

[Fools Gold]

Why would someone say that the leader of the WW's was killed? Maybe they saw another show.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Fools Gold

[WhiteStumbler]

I rather liked this one. The Arya thing was very cool to watch. I Liked Jacqen a lot more when Arya owed him 3 lives and had some control over him. He looked loads better when he wore Lannister armour though, it is known.

The battle for Hardholm was compelling, kept me guessing, had a giant swinging a burning tree, and did not end as I thought it would.

And Cersei, sweet sweet Cersei...

I didn't want to go fetal like one of Stannis' "sons" after a scene in The North, so that is an improvement. Might have a chance at making the Top Ten Episodes, I will have to rewatch.

I hope Tommen at least has Ser Pounce to ease his pain.

Edited June 1, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

WS, I am curious, how exactly did you think that battle would end? You said you were surprised, so I was wondering...

[Fools Gold]

I pleases me the most how A Show has slowly put every piece in the place where it belongs: Cersei is bakcfired by her own schemes that are totally over her head (she is not as smart as she think she is);Arya training to achieved her revenge, (also, not quite the regular lady-life rememeber: "You will marry a high lord and rule his castle, your sons shall be knights and princes and lords" "No.That's not me"); Tyrion advising at someone that knows theirself needed of such advise instead of some useless psycho; Daenerys remembering us that's she is alwways on the verge of leaving those forgotten cities and come back to take her home; Jaime, trapped in Dorne by his own heroisn, fails again to be where he is needed to be (thouhg not in this episode, he is present by his absence in stopping Cersei's arrest).
Finally, the White Walkers making all the years of threats real. It was great to see them, finally, not only "moving forward", but making a militar attack. And we saw what this "army of the dead" fuss was really about (a very enlarged army, after the attack). And of course, once again, Jon making the right hard decisions with sad results. One can not really tell, but I don't think he got most of the wildlings, in making your army bigger, a total win for the White Wallkers. 
Also, it was great to see the White Walker leader/priest/magician/whatever-he-is raising the dead. 

Great episode, awesome battle scene, and great advances in the plot. 

[Llywela]

I'm just glad Dolorous Edd survived. He's the one I was frightened for!

 

I've a nasty feeling Sam's words of advice to young Olly may not be taken quite the way he intended - Olly's going to use that advice as justification to do something stupid, isn't he?

[Pallas]

I've a nasty feeling Sam's words of advice to young Olly may not be taken quite the way he intended - Olly's going to use that advice as justification to do something stupid, isn't he?

 

Could be, Llywela.  He's a male Arya, isn't he.  What Olly saw and suffered the day the freefolk raided his village has of course remade him.  He's now prematurely resolute and implacable, though still young  -- the young actor keeps showing us that, from his first small nod at Jon when he killed Ygrette.  

 

Lacking Arya's privileged background, Olly learned earlier and better how to keep his head down and keep his options open.  If he has a list, he thinks that's his own business.  At the same time, he's willing to question trusted elders when they seem to betray what Olly holds as the obvious truth -- he doesn't just repudiate them.  But he also lacks Arya's protagonist's privilege.  That could mean he will be sacrificed to speak to a tragic dilemma: the price of reconciliation.

[DirewolfPup]

gingerella

It's not even scary - I'm the biggest scaredy cat of them all, and I'm not scared by this CGI stuff, I'm just SMDH over the stupidness of it. Ruining the portrayal of the MOST OMNIPOTENT BADDIES of this show and turning them into cartoons that are laughable reduces the entire story because the entire friggin story is about WINTER COMING and the EVIL MONSTERS that come with it. So now, its like Winter is Coming, oh, and there's lots of gross looking blue eyed dead soldier cartoon characters, wheeeee!

 

I remember, very distinctly, people here and elsewhere saying this about WW and wights pretty much every time they've shown up. Aside from the creepy girl in Episode 1, people have said they're dumb and cartoonish. The Wight attacking Jon inside Castle Black. The march of the zombonies and WW that didn't kill Sam. The one Sam did kill. The skeletons that got Bran's buddy. Almost every time they appear, I've heard this response.

 

Me, I'm also a big chicken, and I was not scared of them. That hasn't reduced my enjoyment of it, at least not yet. The only time it bothered me was the Bran attack. By now, maybe I'm used to it.

[stillshimpy]

I was sorry that Fuck-Men-Woman needed to signal her demise -- "I've just rescued children!  Now I'm going to help old people!  Be right back!" -- and that we knew hers would be the last face we saw rigor-ected.

 

Yup, that and she had this show's kiss-of-death, "I'm a good and lovingly demonstrative parent".  Might as well start carving the tombstone there.  The only reason Cat got to live as long as she did was her loathing of Jon and her late neglect of Rickon.   Cersei gets a pass on this story rule for the sole reason that she broke every other rule of decency to secure her continued existence. 

 

Yeah, okay.  So stuff happened.  Woo!!! Some pretty baffling stuff on some levels, of course.  Who gave the Army of the Dead that super-charged Red Bull infusion, for instance?  Slow and lumbering used to be their M.O.  , all of a sudden they're Meth-infused-dead-tweakers.   Got it.  Okay.  Somebody watched World War Z and thought, "Aha!  There's an idea."  

 

Weird thoughts I had last night: "Oh jeez poor Cers....what the hell am I even thinking?"  So Lena Headey did a good job with her scenes, but since anyone other than a severely brain damaged person could have foreseen the outcome of elevating religious fanatics to power, when your house is practically made out of paper thin, handblown hypocrisy-glass, it seemed a bit of a cheat.  I did love that Tommen's tendency towards inaction , that had served Cersei well in the past, now was keeping her in a cell.  But damn, King Tommen is setting new standards for being useless. 

 

So that was a little bit of a problem with those scenes.  They were well done, but the entire progression was just layered in Duh and Steeped in Stupidity on that.  Still, it was fun stuff. 

 

Hey, we got Dany's backstory! Or some of it! The biggest problem with "Varys, the best player of the long game, always supporting Dany/Viserys from afar" is that , as discussed, it is contradicted by a lot of his actions (and inactions).  Also, the "where the frak is he then?" of it all.  Jorah and Tyrion had time to be infected, captured, sold and freed and re-enslaved.  Surely Varys could have rolled up in that time.  I suspect they have a really hard time getting the actor.

 

Okay, so Sansa now knows that Theon killed two kids as props and that Bran and Rickon may be alive.  That whole story has been a lot of unlikely bullshit to get us to that point.  Speaking of actors that had an easy year's schedule, Brienne and Pod, the Lurkers in the North must have had a light call-list this year, because Brienne is apparently hanging around an Inn in the land of Ramsay, the Everything Knower for a really long time without incident.  

 

As for Theon betraying Sansa to help her...okay, the logic of that tracks because Theon is a deranged squirrel of a man, so sure, why not?  

 

But elsewhere we've been trying to figure out what material the show has added in for padding and what seems like it is from the books and being translated.  My personal pick for "they just made this one up entirely" remains Sansa as Mrs. Bolton.  

 

I really enjoyed Arya's story, by the way.  They couldn't have known what a versatile actor Maisie Williams would turn out to be when they cast her.  Kid actors can go either way when they are that good at a very young age.  At some point they become aware that acting isn't just treated as "just pretend this is real, like you're playing" (and kids are great at that) and is considered a craft, with a lot of effort to be put into it and some start showing strain and artifice like mad in the mid-teen years.  She's apparently one of the rare real-deals who can just act without the awkward in-between age.  

 

So one note on the Doomed Parent of the North:  They cast her well.  I recognized her from her voice (she's in Pitch Perfect 2 and she has enough screen presence to be memorable from the trailer).   Really, really good work on her part.  She must have had three minutes of screen time to make anyone give a damn and I actually really did.  Considering my utter contempt for all things Free Folk, well done!  

 

But....she's dead so....Jebus show, ever consider introducing a charismatic actor in an appealing character role and not killing them?  Might make for a refreshing change, particularly in a season that's struggling with some story bogs.  

 

I did get a kick out of Tormund's communication skill-set.  "Hmmmm.  In response to your point I....bludgeon you without pause or hesitation.  Strong work product with action-oriented results.  I'm an Outlier in the field of wrangling pain-in-the-ass Kings."   

[ChocButterfly]

Well, I liked it! Finally shit happened!! I thought it was awesome.

 

I don't mind the cgi, I don't watch the show for the special effects, plus like DirewolfPup said, the zombies have always looked ridiculous. I actually thought the WW were done much better this time, they look less cartoonish. Also, they seemed to have different characters. Before they ALL looked the same.

 

Oh, and BTW, White Walkers, Wights, dead thing zombonies - what the hell is the difference between all these cartoon characters, or are they all the same things? If you're going to have a villain in a story, dont have like eleventy versions of them, have one mofo badass villain, not this hot buttered mess.

The zombies, Wights, dead things, etc, are the same thing, we give them different names. The White Walkers are the other species. They are the ones who make the zombies and control them. I thought this was clear.

 

I thought the battle was interesting, because you could feel the sense of dread and desperation that you should feel when facing zombies. It's not like a normal battle. Although I found it weird that they didn't think of fighting them with fire. I thought they all knew by now that those zombies only die with fire. But I'll let that pass, because they were running away and not thinking straight at the moment.

 

I loved Dany and Tyrion. That's going to be fun!

 

Tyrion and Dany? Are.You.Fucking.Kidding.Me? So the Lannister imp saunters into Mereen and Dan makes him her trusted advisor over one round of happy hour drinks? WTF?! If that is her MO, then she is a shitty ruler and doesnt deserve to rule a dragon's fart let alone actual people.

Actually I believe that's the smartest move she has done. She immediately realized he could actually be very helpful. She'd be stupid to not at least try to get as much information as possible from him. Sure, he could be a spy, she shouldn't trust him 100%, but she can use him . He's the only one who knows about the current politics in Westeros, he'd be an excellent adviser. She can easily find out if his story checks out. By now I'm sure the news about the price on Tyrion Lannister's head is well known in Essos, so she'd know he actually did kill his father.

By the way, Jorah is officially insane.

 

For me, even Sansa's part at least didn't have any torture in it and she found out about her little brothers, so there was a point to her scene. Also, who else think stupid Ramsey will disobey his father at some point and try to take on Stannis? That'd be awesome! Then we can get rid of him.

 

When I heard that Kevan had gone back to the capital I thought it was to help Cersei. Heh! He's actually taken her place as Hand, awesome! Makes sense, he'd be thrilled if Cersei gets killed. And I'm not feeling sorry for Cersei even a bit. Nope.

 

See? Everything was worth it in this episode!

[Fools Gold]

Exactly what I thougt. 

 

I've a nasty feeling Sam's words of advice to young Olly may not be taken quite the way he intended - Olly's going to use that advice as justification to do something stupid, isn't he?

[Fools Gold]

Actually I believe that's the smartest move she has done. She immediately realized he could actually be very helpful. She'd be stupid to not at least try to get as much information as possible from him. Sure, he could be a spy, she shouldn't trust him 100%, but she can use him . He's the only one who knows about the current politics in Westeros, he'd be an excellent adviser. She can easily find out if his story checks out. By now I'm sure the news about the price on Tyrion Lannister's head is well known in Essos, so she'd know he actually did kill his father.

By the way, Jorah is officially insane.

 

Totally agree, since the death of Barristan, she has no advisor on westerosi matters that could actually know something about Westeros. Maybe she doesn't like nor trust the guy so much, but he is kind of the only thing she is got. Tyrion also plays it very well in order to gain her good faith.

[WhiteStumbler]

gingerella: WS, I am curious, how exactly did you think that battle would end? You said you were surprised, so I was wondering...

 

I honestly thought it was going to be like Roarks Drift, where the attacking masses are held off, but just barely. There were actually several nods to the movie Zulu, I thought: The "chiefs" on the hills above the town, the attackers probing for weaknesses and trying to attack thru a thatched roof. Once the WW appeared in the town, I figured "dragonglass" and the attack would be repulsed, because dragonglass and a freaking giant should carry the day. Once the skeleton-lemming wave started, it was pretty clear that this was going to be the end of the Wildlings as a significant force. I also had a bit of a problem with how the zombonis will move at the speed of plot necessity (they shamble, until the show needs them to run), but I thought the Battle of Hardholm was very well done.

 

I've a nasty feeling Sam's words of advice to young Olly may not be taken quite the way he intended - Olly's going to use that advice as justification to do something stupid, isn't he?

Like try to kill Thormund? It would be a nice call-back to his first meeting with Jon...

Jon: My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones if you put a sword through their hearts.

Thormund: Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods.

 

stillshimpy: Hey, we got Dany's backstory!

And what a backstory!

Tyrion: When I was a young man, I heard a story about a baby born during the worst storm in living memory. She had no wealth, no lands, no army, only a name and a handful of supporters, most of whom probably thought they could use that name to benefit themselves. They kept her alive, moving her from place to place, often hours ahead of the men who'd been sent to kill her. She was eventually sold off to some warlord on the edge of the world and that appeared to be that.* And then a few years later, the most well-informed person I knew told me that this girl without wealth, lands, or armies had somehow acquired all three in a very short span of time, along with three dragons. He thought she was our best, last chance to build a better world. I thought you were worth meeting at the very least.

*(I loved the expression on the face of the actress playing Dany here)

   

Jorah and Tyrion had time to be infected, captured, sold and freed and re-enslaved.  Surely Varys could have rolled up in that time.

Still waiting in that brothel. The prostitutes are super irritated with Varys at this point -- he doesn't buy much wine, and seems uninterested in purchasing their other... services.

[Anothermi]

"She had no wealth, no lands, no army, only a name and a handful of supporters, most of whom probably thought they could use that name to benefit themselves." Tyrion - via WhiteStumbler

A bit of a scathing indictment of Tyrion's host in Pentos, Ilyrio-the wedding planner. Probably true, though. And Varys vague and mixed messages to Ilyrio in the Dragon-Bones tunnel at King's Landing that Shimpy provided for us? Shows that he treated Ilyrio the same as he treated everyone else. No lies, but no full truths either. Now, if we could just figure out what "serve the Realm" means we'd have him pegged. <yeah, sure>

 

It also takes me back to our Season One discussions about the capture of King's Landing during Robert's rebellion. I had speculated at that time that Ned might have been responsible for letting the Mad King's children escape. Turns out it was just the one (Viserys) and his Mother, who was still pregnant with Dany. I don't know if that would make escaping easier or more difficult, but now I doubt if Ned had much to do with it. It was probably a maneuver by "supporters" with the very intent Tyrion alluded to, so they might have had quite a bit of lead time as the writing was on the wall by the time Ned's, no, make that Tywin's army arrived at the gate. Now I'm thinking Paycelle may have had a hand in it? He's the one who convinced the Mad King to let Tywin's army through the gates - even when Jaime told the Mad King not to trust his father. Paycelle, too, is a long term schemer. Always good to keep a card up your sleeve, even when you are betraying the "suit" the card is from? <ok, straining a bit there with the analogy ;-) >

 

eta: more likely Varys was in on the escape of Viserys and Mom/Dany. That's more his style as we've come to know it. 

 

It also puts King Robert's murderous take on Dany into perspective as well.  He may not have been a great King, but he was a very good tactician when it came to war and gaining/keeping power. He understood that whether or not Dany, herself, was powerful, other's could use her to become so.

 

Ned, OTOH, was clearly a good fighter, but a weak link as far as tactics go. (I still love his character.)

Edited June 1, 2015 by Anothermi

[janjan]

White Stumbler, O Brother in Spirit, when they showed the Chief WW up on the hill, I immediately thought, "This is gonna be Roark's Drift again"!

I also had a bit of a problem with how the zombonis will move at the speed of plot necessity

That's what I meant when I said that WWs attack on cue when the director says "Action." The timing was just too contrived. I almost missed the battle because of my extreme eye-rolling.

 

The eye-rolling started when Jon approached standing in the front of the boat like George Washington crossing the Delaware. With no hat.

 

But it was nice to see the dead girl from S1E1 appear in the line of kids that attacked the too-obviously-doomed Wildling lady. She hasn't grown at all. That's probably what happens when you're dead.

 

Dany needs Varys as much as she needs Tyrion. Probably more since he doesn't drink as much. I want Varys back NOW.

 

Jorah isn't all the way insane. His greyscale has gotten bigger since last week, so he figures he doesn't have long and wants to see Dany one more time. I didn't catch why his former owner said he was now a freeman -- he was just an escaped slave, no? Maybe Dred Scott doesn't apply in Mereen.

 

Where is Dany getting all those nifty clothes and furnishings? Don't tell me she looted the former masters' stuff.

 

How come Stannis's army is getting buried in snow and Hardhome farther north has barely a dusting?

 

Can't wait to see what Ramsay is gonna do with only 20 men.

Edited June 1, 2015 by janjan

[stillshimpy]

. She had no wealth, no lands, no army, only a name and a handful of supporters, most of whom probably thought they could use that name to benefit themselves. They kept her alive, moving her from place to place, often hours ahead of the men who'd been sent to kill her.

 

I was sort of taking it as read that this was Tyrion embellishing a bit, or re-directing focus or gilding a lily.  The same as he did when he was extolling Jorah's battle deeds to the slaver.  The Slaver who clearly liked to do a bit of embellishment, "The dwarf can live until we meet a cock dealer" and instead Tyrion is sold as a slave.  It seems like Tyrion's natural gift for being entertaining came into play here.  

 

The reason I'm assuming that?  That entire story completely ignored and discounted Viserys worth and it would have been Viserys that they were primarily sent to kill.  Or at least additionally.  Tyrion, understandably because if ever there was a time to flatter someone, it is in justifying why the hell you'd cross oceans and court peril with an eye towards meeting that person.  

 

 

 

It also puts King Robert's murderous take on Dany into perspective as well.  He may not have been a great King, but he was a very good tactician when it came to war and gaining/keeping power. He understood that whether or not Dany, herself, was powerful, other's could use her to become so.

Ned, OTOH, was clearly a good fighter, but a weak link as far as tactics go. (I still love his character.)

 

Actually, it wasn't until Dany was pregnant that Robert seemed to consider killing her.  it's one of the (many) reasons that I'm always saying that when we joined this story, it was presented as a patriarchal society.  Sansa's "What happens if I don't have sons?" and her Septen's silence gave Sansa enough of an answer to worry her.  Yes, yes I know, Cat said Lady Whent, but that's just not the story that was being sold.  Also, she could have been Lord Whent's widow, ruling until her son was of age.  Regardless, in the first season Dany was "just a girl" and in the second (or was it third?) said stuff like, "See how they like to lose to a girl..." 

 

Point being, whereas I'm sure the seeds of the real story were present in Tyrion's account, I think he might have taken a bit of dramatic license.  

 

Also, as far as Robert went, remember the conversation about Five and One? He was alleged to be a good statistician and that is the one time we saw a glimpse of that.  But he was also struggling with what seemed the necessity of killing Dany, because he apparently didn't want to stoop that low.  I think in Robert and Ned's world -- both raised by Jon Arryn -- only a coward kills women or children.  Certainly someone with no honor.  

 

By the time Robert realized that he should, he wasn't happy about it and in fact, retracted the hit on his deathbed.  As far as Ned went though, I think he never really wanted power and therefore didn't understand the lengths that people will go to get it.  I don't think Robert innately did either, but he'd been King for something like 16 years when we met him.  

 

Another small piece of Tryion's revisionist history:  He talked about Cersei as if she hated Robert before she married him.  We heard her tell Ned that she was thrilled to be marrying him.  Maybe the truth is somewhere in between, but in that 5 or 1 conversation, Cersei did actually ask Robert if they ever could have had a chance together, if their baby had lived (the baby that this year's opening flashback seemed to wink out of existence) and Robert said, "No"....but it did indicate that what Cersei eventually told Ned was the truth.  

 

It's only interesting in that it speaks to how good of an advisor Tyrion is likely to be, because he's prone to hyperbole.  

 

By the way, I didn't have a problem with Jorah willingly returning to slavery, if it meant he could have more time near Dany.  He's dying.  He's got nowhere to go.  His father is dead and he knows it.  He's trying to stay as close as he can to the thing he considers home.  

 

Also, I think Tyrion saved Jorah's life when he told Dany that he thought Jorah was in love with her.  Dany knew that was true ("you forget yourself!") and I think it is what made Dany trust the rest of what he said.  She knew he was primarily telling her the truth, because he did tell her the truth. 

 

PitchPerfect2 Wildling Woman....I'm wondering, will she actually become our first Zomboni character?  I have a feeling the Zomboni's will turn out to be like the Borg.  A collective.  

 

I do agree with gingerella though.  We kind of need to know what the hell their reasons are and if they have a goal.  Part of the reason Zombies tend to be boring (to me) is that "bbbbrrrraaaaiiinnnns" as a driving force is too simplistic to really make think of much other than, "Beat feet in hasty retreat" .  The Whitewalkers clearly have some kind of hierarchy and it seemed like the Zombonis enact their will.  

 

But they must talk, or communicate in some fashion.  They had a deal with Craster, after all.  

 

ETA:  Oh and thanks to the show for this: when Theon was on-and-on about the omniscient Ramsay, all I could think was that I will throw a fit and fall in it if the reason we haven't seen Pod or Brienne in an age and a half is that he has them trussed up to Xs somewhere. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

ETA:  Oh and thanks to the show for this: when Theon was on-and-on about the omniscient Ramsay, all I could think was that I will throw a fit and fall in it if the reason we haven't seen Pod or Brienne in an age and a half is that he has them trussed up to Xs somewhere.

Well, we did see Brienne peering through her Westrosi binocs after Reek betrayed Sansa's signal plan to Ramsey. But all that means is that Ramsey now knows to be on the look out for someone who might want to free Sansa. So, from that time on, you're probably in "very likely theory" territory. 

[ChocButterfly]

I do agree with gingerella though.  We kind of need to know what the hell their reasons are and if they have a goal.  Part of the reason Zombies tend to be boring (to me) is that "bbbbrrrraaaaiiinnnns" as a driving force is too simplistic to really make think of much other than, "Beat feet in hasty retreat" .  The Whitewalkers clearly have some kind of hierarchy and it seemed like the Zombonis enact their will. 

 

But they must talk, or communicate in some fashion.  They had a deal with Craster, after all.

Th zombies have no motive or reason, they're animated corpses controlled by the WW. The ones who had a deal with Craster were the WW. I haven't heard them talk, but I'm sure they do, they seem very civilized. Maybe they communicate telepathic, after all they have magic abilities.

 

Freefolk elders include a 30'ish woman.

Heh! I was thinking the same thing. I mean, I know life expectancy must be very low for Wildings, but that was too much!

 

Yeah, okay.  So stuff happened.  Woo!!! Some pretty baffling stuff on some levels, of course.  Who gave the Army of the Dead that super-charged Red Bull infusion, for instance?  Slow and lumbering used to be their M.O.  , all of a sudden they're Meth-infused-dead-tweakers.   Got it.  Okay.  Somebody watched World War Z and thought, "Aha!  There's an idea."

I'm fine with the Red Bull infusion if it it won't take them another 5 freaking seasons to actually cross the damn Wall!!

 

There are currently so many holes in this show story that it stinks like rotting swiss cheese. First of all, where the hell has this army of dead things been hanging out for like hundreds of years or whenever the last Winter was? I mean, where are they in the off seasons when Winter Isnt Coming?

I have no idea. They have mentioned on the show that the WW were just a myth and that they hadn't been seen for thousands of years. So maybe they were asleep under the ice and they are waking up now with the whole magic reawakening at the same time in the world? Maybe they only come when a Long Winter and a Long Night is coming? Maybe they car the actual cause for those? Nobody knows why magic is returning after so many years, bust something is cooking. Maybe is the end/beginning of a New Era? Will they answer any of these questions before the show is over??

[Anothermi]

The ones who had a deal with Craster were the WW. I haven't heard them talk, but I'm sure they do, they seem very civilized. Maybe they communicate telepathic, after all they have magic abilities. - ChocButterfly

I remember when we first saw the zomboni hordes lumbering past scared-shitless-Sam that there seemed to be a high pitched whistle-like sound that I took to be one WW communicating to the other. The one we saw up close and the other one was way at the back of the zomboni horde. This was also the 1st time we saw the WWs riding dead horses - as opposed to just standing, like in the very first episode (god that was scary back then). I still find it odd that the WW looked directly at Sam yet passed by without doing anything to him. Certainly not the way they are acting now. And, of course (IIRC), we haven't heard that high pitched whistle-like sound again either so all that could just be show-runner messing about as they figure out the best way to represent these guys. 

 

As for what the zombonies were doing all this time between the last Winter of Infestation and now? Being dead would be the obvious answer, so I'm guessing you're referring to the WWs? We know they have some kind of an Ice Fortress of Solitude somewhere north of the Wall because we saw the cute little Craster babe turned into a WW on the alter - by the Boss WW or the High Septon equivalent in WhiteWalkerdom. They MUST have magic, and Old Root Dude must be their magik's nemesis because they had clearly enchanted the dead who lay around the entrance to Root Dude's tree to activate whenever anyone tried to enter the base of that tree.  Otherwise the re-animation that took Jojen just doesn't make sense. (Yeah. I'm still hoping for some logic to this story. Don't fail me GRRM.)

[Pallas]

Dany and Tyrion had an immediate and believable rapport.  Not only as the "two terrible children of two terrible fathers," though that line alone made the encounter a pleasure.  A welcome revival of Tyrion's better nature, which is ironic and candid rather than maudlin or insulting.  Just the tonic needed in Dany's court, too.  It was a relief to see her contending with a male who allowed no hint of flirtation, adulation, fear or most of all, covert condescension, to compromise the tenor of their chat.  

 

It's not that Tyrion is unaware that Dany is compelling,  but I think his instinct for self-preservation is most alert when dealing with women of his own class.  He knows he came into life by "killing" one, his mother; he's been hated for it all his life by another, his sister; he was apparently considered beyond the pale as a marriage prospect by (the fathers of) all the ladies in the realm, and he's twice been put on trial by female peers.  And he probably received Jorah's worship of Dany as another warning: hardbitten former lord, solider, slaver, convict and spy, Jorah Mormont -- another ruined son -- turned acolyte by the renegade girl who then exiled him.  And not for spite, either, or for anything that diminished her: exiled him for cause, on principle, despite his usefulness, her great debt to him, and their comradery.   

 

Irreverence was what I was looking forward to from Tyrion with Dany, without imagining that Dany might return it.  And how intriguing to see Tyrion, just as quickly and despite himself, perceive that he may have met his better.  Someone as tenacious of life as he, but with something else: a vision. "I want to break the wheel."  A vision that for once, might not be merely ego pretending to benevolence.    

 

It's the first mission statement Dany's ever made that didn't sound shrill or pompous, premature or derivative: something she once read somewhere, or overheard Viscerys rehearse.  She surprised him.  And me.  It turns out she's done very well in this solitary time without the dragons to rely on, as both weapons and family, and without an older Westerosi man advising her.  And yet I think she may be moving toward a place where she can make the best of both: the dragons and the counselor.  One chat, one glass of wine, and she and Tyrion brought out the best in each other.

[stillshimpy]

Th zombies have no motive or reason, they're animated corpses controlled by the WW. The ones who had a deal with Craster were the WW. I haven't heard them talk, but I'm sure they do, they seem very civilized. Maybe they communicate telepathic, after all they have magic abilities.

 

I probably keep using Zombonies as a blanket term, sorry about that.  We need to know the motivations of those that are causing the Army of the Dead to roll forth in an either shambling, or super-speedy wave o' death and destruction.  

 

I mean, are they trying to enact an endless winter?  Are they the gods of Ice and Dany is the risen-god-of-fire?  What causes the Whitewalkers to walk forth?  Does it just happen every 1000 years or so?  I don't care if Sam has to go all Doctor-Jackson's-notes-say on the situation (which in this case would be "I found a dusty tome with a passage I translated that has a poem in runes, and by straining my eyes and crossing toes, I deciphered this ____________" ).  

They can exposition the hell out of it in the form of Nan's fairytale to scared children for all I care, "Every thousand years, from beneath the ice they wake and try to claim the world as theirs, forever.  Only the gods of all the lands can unite to defeat this never-ending winter.  Only the gods and their magic can stop ...."  whatever the hell it is.  

 

Or they could have King Root Dude tell Bran what the hell is going on.  Or they could have Gilly tell Sam, "My father told me that...." but pretty much I would just like to know what changed.  What awoke them.  Is it a cycle?  When magic grows stronger and the mystical beasts awake....?  

 

It can't be like Stannis.  "It's my right.  Plus, I have middle-child syndrome.  Bend stuff and crown me already.  Plus, I let the Witchy Woman with the Perfect Breasts convince me it's for the good of all and the world is damned forever without me and my essential rule-following nature."  

 

Most wars are really about land and resource acquisition, or distribution.  Sure, god this, god that, gotta save the heathens, or smite the infidels or what have you, but mostly?  That's a cover story for "We want your stuff, we think you have too much stuff and they way you use your stuff?  Sucks.  Mainly we just want more power ourselves, but we'll bring idealogical blah-blah-quack-quack into it all so that we can convince the people who will die for our power grab, that they die for a reason."  

 

So what's the animating force behind it all?  Just some Westorsi religious tome apocalypse?  

 

For instance, when Jon and a cast of truly freaked out Wildling arrive at Castle Black and say, "Seven gods!  Seventeen shits and a nervous breakdown to boot, we have to get going, like...yesterday and someone invent a flame-thrower NOW, because you would not godsdamn believe what it is on our six!"   

 

Maybe there could be some Wildling lore exposition about why and or what.  Why now?  What stops them?  What provoked them?  We've seen the howling White Walkers who look liked mummified death-metal rockers, complete with shirtless attire and flowing...I'm going to say....lock (like) things.  But the guy who made the universal gesture of "Rise and do my will....even though you apparently can't swim for reasons the story won't explain either, look, you can only do so much with reanimated dead things, okay?"  ....that guy looked different from the Whitewalkers that confronted Sam.  

 

This thing looked like the Demon Sweet from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, after that proverbial cold day in hell.  Who is he or they?  The guy that touched Craster's son and turned him into an infanticle.  He looks different.  Is he?  I know you can't answer me, but I wish the story would figure out a way to.  

 

Well, we did see Brienne peering through her Westrosi binocs after Reek betrayed Sansa's signal plan to Ramsey.

 

We did?  I thought we just saw her peering out a window talking about how Sansa might not know she's in danger, blah blah blah, but that it was all in a previously.  It is entirely possible I'm spacing something though, because I tend to fast-forward the living stuffing out of anything even vaguely proximate to Ramsay on a rewatch.  

Edited June 1, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Pallas: One chat, one glass of wine, and she and Tyrion brought out the best in each other.

I figured it was probably asking too much to see Tyrion and Dany in the same room together (and, even after Tyrion crawled out of his crate, I sure didn't think it would happen before the end of this season), but so far they have been great, both the characters and the actors imo.

 

Dany: You're going to advise me. While you can still speak in complete sentences.

Tyrion: Advise you on what?

Dany: How to get what I want.

Tyrion: The Iron Throne? Perhaps you should try wanting something else.

Dany: If I want jokes, I'll get myself a proper fool.

[Anothermi]

We've seen the howling White Walkers who look liked mummified death-metal rockers, complete with shirtless attire and flowing...I'm going to say....lock (like) things.  But the guy who made the universal gesture of "Rise and do my will....even though you apparently can't swim for reasons the story won't explain either, look, you can only do so much with reanimated dead things, okay?"  ....that guy looked different from the Whitewalkers that confronted Sam. 

This thing looked like the Demon Sweet from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, after that proverbial cold day in hell.  Who is he or they?  The guy that touched Craster's son and turned him into an infanticle.  He looks different.  Is he?  I know you can't answer me, but I wish the story would figure out a way to.

Agreed. That's kinda my point about how the WW look so much more robust and healthy this time as compared to the ones we saw at the premiere and the ones who Sam saw. I don't know Buffy much, but the "universal gesture of "Rise and do my will...." Guy reminded me of the Sith Lord from the Star Warz franchise - only in cold colours, not hot red ones. They definitely have changed, but I still think it may just be that the show-runners hadn't decided definitively what they should look like. Of course, I'd prefer to think there was an organic (hee) reason why they went from scrawny death-metal rockers to super-hero-villians. Still waiting for this to make sense.

[ChocButterfly]

I don't mind that much that they don't know anything about the WW or their intentions. Why would they know? They were just a myth from thousands and thousands of years ago. History has been lost. Plus, I don't think it needs too much imagination to realize that they want to turn this world into theirs, the world of the dead and cold. It's like if suddenly aliens came and started to attack us. We wouldn't be discussing too much the reasons of why they're attacking us. They want to take over our world, they want to enslave us, etc.

 

Sure, I would like some explanations, at least before the show ends, and I expect it. But I'm fine with the people from the story being as clueless as we are for now. It makes sense, it's actually more frightening, you just know these fucking dead things are out to get you and you don't really know  to stop them!!

 

Sam studying old books and finding out more relevant information would make sense, story wise. As well, as old root guy. At least he should know what the hell it's going on!!

 

Pallas, you write so beautiful! Most of you are so great are being able to express these complicated character intentions, hidden meanings and nuances! I wish I could write like that. 

[janjan]

On rewatch: It looked to me that the WW who eyeballed Sam from the dead horse is the same one who picked up Craster's baby and also the one who tangled with Jon in this ep. Or maybe they only had one WW suit before this season. The one who walked out on the pier was different, and looked younger. The heir apparent?

 

I don't recall that there were any cartoon WWs in the premiere. There was one who was just a huge blue-eyed human -- same guy who played the Mountain initially IIRC.

 

The one-liner of the ep, which usually comes from Tyrion, came from Dolorous Ed this time: "Oh fuck!"

[90PercentGravity]

I think the come-at-me-bro ww was the King ww or something. He had a crown of icicles.

[WhiteStumbler]

"Come at me, Crow"

[Fools Gold]

The WW from the pier is clearly a leader, since he is the one to raise the dead and also the one that made that baby to become one of them. I  guess that if not the king, some sort of religious/magical leader (or both).
I really don't know why would someone think he is the heir of someone else, no other WW has been shown to be "the king" or "the leader" but he. 

Also, the snow doesnt pile by sea level as much, so it's totally reasonable that Stannis is buried in snow while Hardhome is not. And the wildlings are shown hatless several times since the earliest, wouldnot know why that would become a problem now.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Fools Gold

[Mya Stone]

"Come at me, Crow"

Breaking my oath only to share this:

Just call me Jaime Lannister. I solemnly reswear to not post here again.

[DirewolfPup]

Mya, totally worth it.

 

stillshimpy

I mean, are they trying to enact an endless winter?  Are they the gods of Ice and Dany is the risen-god-of-fire?  What causes the Whitewalkers to walk forth?  Does it just happen every 1000 years or so?

 

Once they take over the world, they'll revert back to their natural selves, beautiful butterflies. /Credits.

[gingerella]

Ha, that gif cracks me up (though I don't think its supposed to). I rather like imagining the head WW's thought bubble to say, "You wanna piece of me bitch, I reanimate dead people, whatch you got?"

[janjan]

I propose that we ditch the rule about not posting pix and vids. Mya's post made my day.

[stillshimpy]

I propose we don't ditch the rule, because it's bitten us before.  How about the mods get to post things, since they are...you know...the mods.  

[WhiteStumbler]

How about the mods get to post things, since they are...you know...the mods.  

Seems reasonable.

 

I re-watched last night (up until the action shifted to Hardhome, because I want to savor that one later this week all by itself) and caught this... The woman who is Arya / Lana's first oyster customer every morning  (Lara -- an apparent lady of the night who is heading home from work at dawn) was one of the women who was in the hot tub with Salladhor Saan in S4E06 "The Laws of Gods and Men". Stannis had just gotten his loan approved, and Davos found the pirate in a tub with Salladhor and two naked women. One of them was Lara. Arya is 4 degrees of Kevin Bacon from Stannis.

Edited June 2, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

Janjan, you knows I loves you and yer dragadoon, but ye gods, that's a slippery slope if we start allowing vid clips again. Our Words should be: We Remember [the necklace].

[Anothermi]

I propose that we ditch the rule about not posting pix and vids. Mya's post made my day.

I propose we don't ditch the rule, because it's bitten us before.  How about the mods get to post things, since they are...you know...the mods.

Hmmm. Although I "liked" Shimpy's suggestion on this I find I still have an uneasiness about it. It's not that I don't trust the Glorious White Cloaks (because I do) it's that when new posters start off, they don't usually read the boring rules and procedures first. They read the episode threads, get inspired and copy what they see there. The nuance of who posted an image (or their forum status) is unlikely to register and before we know it, once again, we will have seen something we cannot unsee! I'd prefer to keep the links only policy. It's not like we're disallowing screen caps, we're just giving ourselves a choice of whether to look at it or not.

 

As Gingerella said: We Remember (the necklace)

[janjan]

I retreat, recant, and hang my head in remorse.

[Anothermi]

Retreating is good. 

 

Recanting and hanging... sounds like a "Sparrow" punishment. We don't do that here.  ;-D

[90PercentGravity]

How about mods can post images under spoiler tags?

[Anothermi]

We'd previously agreed that we all can post images as links.  I don't see much of a difference between links and spoiler tags.

 

The only thing I require is a description of what we are likely to see so we can decide to click or not to click. 

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I have an actual question, because I haven't had a chance to rewatch yet:   Hardhome is the place that was attacked by the Whitewalkers, right?  

 

Yes, I realize that this is a really stupid question, and practically a rhetorical one.  

 

Why in the world would anyone ever name a place Hardhome?  Was Sucky Place to Dwell too hard to spell?  Admittedly, nearly every place in the Seven Kingdoms has a painfully on the nose description as a name.  Winterfell.  Kings Landing.  But then other places don't.  Casterly Rock.  Whereas I'm assuming there's a rock present, I have no clue what a Casterly might be.  

 

Just saying, I get that the Free Folk live simple and hard lives, but that name is cracking me up.  "We're Free Folk.  We like plain labeling.  Hardhome, it's four miles south of Even Harderhome, which if you want to see a shit pile....well that's actually two miles North of Harderhome.  You can't miss it." 

[90PercentGravity]

I've always imagined "Casterly Rock" to be a rocky structure shaped like a castle. 

 

The free folks are nomadic. So maybe the "hard" isn't really a reference to its difficulty, but to the fact that it is a fixed location. So, when you are out roaming about and for whatever reason you can't continue in your soft homes, you go to Hardhome. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by 90PercentGravity

[WhiteStumbler]

Okay, so I have an actual question, because I haven't had a chance to rewatch yet:   Hardhome is the place that was attacked by the Whitewalkers, right?  

Correct. From earlier this season...

 

Jon: Your people need a leader. And they need to get south of The Wall before it's too late. We don't have much time, and they have less. The Walkers are coming, and they'll hit your people first. I'm not asking you to make peace to save your skin. Make peace to save your people.

Tormund: Most of them are at Hardhome. You know where that is?

Jon: Up on Storrold's Point. I can give you 10 horses and nine other men. You can get there in a week.

Tormund: We'll need ships.

 

As for the name "Hardhome", maybe it translates as something less bleak in one of the Wildling languages? Place Where the Brave are Safe? Then again, we have Point No Point WA, the Bitterroot Mountains, Hungry Mother State Park, Tombstone AZ, and Dead Horse Bay NY in the US, so...

[gingerella]

Well we saw that Hardhome is basically a box canyon snugged up and surrounded by mountains, presumably made up of, yanno, rock, which is hard, and they have made it their home so, Hardhome isn't that far fetched if you think about it that way. But I still maintain it's a really stupid place to hang out and box yourself in when you know shit is about to get very real. I still think the more logical storyline would have been for them to bust through one of the umpteen gates in the Wall that are not currently manned. Just sayin'.