Season 6: Speculation

[J----av]

She's not untrained. She's just not fully trained. I'm not suggesting it would be her very next assignment. A little more training would happen first. But this would be a MUCH easier hit than to take on a heavily guarded queen who has an army, dragons, and Varys and Tyrion Lannister among her advisors. Better assassins than she is have already failed, at least three times now.

 

Sansa's a much easier hit all round, than Danaerys will ever be. Especially when you take disguises and assimilation into account. She has to start somewhere, and any hit you could send her on, carries objections, such as, "who's gonna take out a hit on such an unimportant person?" for pretty much anyone who isn't some sort of heir to the throne. "Who needs to assassinate that person?" for anyone who could easily be taken out in an upfront manner.

 

More relevant, I think, to who Arya will be sent after, are questions such as, "Who are that person's enemies, and are they the type who would send assasins?" More importantly, "would it be more useful for this person's enemies to send assassins, than to just do it themselves? What's it worth to them, to have that person dead?" The only people I can picture hiring the Faceless Men to rub out any characters we know, are Cersei, Varys, Olenna, and Littlefinger, and even then only if the person is too far away for them to kill. Sure, Cersei might hire someone to take out Roose, but I'll bet she'd rather take out Sansa. She wants Roose and Ramsey flayed. She'd be satisfied with strangling and beheading for Sansa. I think the reason she hasn't already hired Faceless Men to take out Olenna, Margaery, and Loras, is that she can do that herself without the expense, especially since money isn't enough in her case.

 

They will ask for service and/or one of her kids. She's only got one or two of those....assuming of course that Tommen hasn't already starved to death, and that Bronn or Trystane is carrying an antidote and Jaime is smart enough to start screaming for help in time. So, she can afford to kill three people tops, using the Faceless Men. They're going to be the people she thinks killed her child, or people she fears might kill the remaining two.

 

There is so much amateur assassination happening that one wonders about the real role of the Faceless Men in society. How many of them are there at a given time? How do they afford all their cool stuff? Are there any assignments they would refuse as not serving their god? How do they set their prices? We know that rich and poor alike can hire them, and yet Baelish said that it would be too expensive for Robert Baratheon. Perhaps he didn't just mean money there, either. I think we're going to learn a lot more about them next season.

 

 There is definitely much to learn about them still before any solid predictions can be made. Still, it was said the cost of killing Dany would be the price of buying an entire army. Besides maybe Cersei and Tommen, Dany would probably be the most expensive hit, but people like Roose, Ramsay and Sansa are likely far too expensive too. If lords and people from high up houses were affordable to kill then we probably would have seen Tywin hire a FM to kill Robb/Stanis/Renly or Cersei hire them to kill Tyrion. If it was affordable you would see far more lords being killed. They say the price is how important the person is, and we don't see any important people being killed by them (that we know of i guess)

[SeanC]

They say the price is how important the person is, and we don't see any important people being killed by them (that we know of i guess)

Well, Balon, but it's implied that Euron paid for that with a stupendously rare (and, given the FM's current preoccupation, possibly useful for other reasons) dragon egg.

 

In general, this is one of the reasons I don't really care for the Faceless Men as part of the worldbuilding.  They're an amazingly powerful organization whose rules seem primarily organized in order to explain why they don't do anything to affect the plot too much (or at all).

[Hecate7]

 There is definitely much to learn about them still before any solid predictions can be made. Still, it was said the cost of killing Dany would be the price of buying an entire army. Besides maybe Cersei and Tommen, Dany would probably be the most expensive hit, but people like Roose, Ramsay and Sansa are likely far too expensive too. If lords and people from high up houses were affordable to kill then we probably would have seen Tywin hire a FM to kill Robb/Stanis/Renly or Cersei hire them to kill Tyrion. If it was affordable you would see far more lords being killed. They say the price is how important the person is, and we don't see any important people being killed by them (that we know of i guess)

 

 

I thought they said the price was higher the more important the client was, as well. The target probably matters, too, but I don't remember them saying that.

[FemmyV]

 

Still, it was said the cost of killing Dany would be the price of buying an entire army.

 

ATM, the only ones I can see trying to take that hit out would be the Iron Bank, and I'm not sure they aren't pulling strings of FM, anyway. The loan to Stannis looks like a total loss, but they can still hope to recoup some losses from the Lannisters, if someone other than Cersei is in charge.

[Hecate7]

Someone is hiring these people. Who is it? Who do you suppose their main customers are?

[J----av]

Someone is hiring these people. Who is it? Who do you suppose their main customers are?

 

 Regular people, killing regular people, for regular person money? We don't know much about them but it seems that the richer and more important the person who is making the hit has to pay more. As well as the more important the target the higher the price. Thats probably why people like Cersei don't hire them.

Edited July 11, 2015 by J----av

[Hecate7]

 Regular people, killing regular people, for regular person money? We don't know much about them but it seems that the richer and more important the person who is making the hit has to pay more. As well as the more important the target the higher the price. Thats probably why people like Cersei don't hire them.

 

I'm not so sure about that. I think we just haven't heard about it yet. Robert was definitely going to hire one, and the only reason he didn't is that Baelish talked him out of it. At least, we think he did....

[FemmyV]

 Regular people, killing regular people, for regular person money? We don't know much about them but it seems that the richer and more important the person who is making the hit has to pay more. As well as the more important the target the higher the price. Thats probably why people like Cersei don't hire them.

 

You know... that's a really good question. It's not like the story has a slew of unexplained deaths, for them to have accomplished. It could well be that most Westerosi nobles still get their own hands dirty.

Edited July 11, 2015 by FemmyV

[Amtosbm]

I am wondering where Theon's story is going to go next season. We know he won't be held by Stannis as the book chapters show, so were is he going to end up? I think he will be with Sansa for awhile but I can't see it all season especially as I feel she is going to end up back with Littlefinger in some way. The two of them splitting up will serve to force Ramsay to decide which one he wants back more. I think its Sansa, but we are talking about an insane man so who the hell knows. I am curious if Theon will go with Davos to look for Rickon. I can't see him going back to Pyke and he is one of the few people who knows what Rickon looks like.

 

Could Arya be sent to kill Melisandre? I think it was way back in season 3 she told Arya she would see her again. I just can't think why the Faceless Men would want to kill her. I would love it if she was sent to try to kill Dany and ended up joing that motley crew in Mereen. I think Maisie would play off Conleth and Peter quite well.

 

I also wonder about Dany and the Dothraki. I think it would be highly ironic if she ends up getting this khalasar to follow her considering that was the whole point of her initial marriage to Drogo, though they were supposed to follow Viserys.  I just can't see them following her to Westeros though. If she doesn't end up leading them I just don't see the point to this interaction. Though I have to be honest I am not seeing the point to some other storylines in the book as well. (Aegon if he is fake).

 

I think we will be getting a lot of flashbacks next season which both excites and scares me. I love when the mention the history but the Maggy the Frog flashback I felt was meh - also there is so little time to wrap up the other characters stories I feel like onscreen time would be better spent on them.

 

At this point I have no idea what is going to happen with Jon. I wish George would hurry up and finish that book!

 

[J----av]

I'm not so sure about that. I think we just haven't heard about it yet. Robert was definitely going to hire one, and the only reason he didn't is that Baelish talked him out of it. At least, we think he did....

 

 LF talked him out of it because they didn't have the money. LF said that it would be twice the price of buying an entire army of sell swords. Robert definitely WANTED to hire one, but even if LF didn't talk him out of it he couldn't have because he didn't have the money.

 

 Using Robert as an example only proves my point more. And as someone else pointed out, it is implied that Euron had to use a freakin dragon egg to pay for Balon's death. It really does not seem like the FM can realistically be bought to assassinate important people

[J----av]

I am wondering where Theon's story is going to go next season. We know he won't be held by Stannis as the book chapters show, so were is he going to end up? I think he will be with Sansa for awhile but I can't see it all season especially as I feel she is going to end up back with Littlefinger in some way. The two of them splitting up will serve to force Ramsay to decide which one he wants back more. I think its Sansa, but we are talking about an insane man so who the hell knows. I am curious if Theon will go with Davos to look for Rickon. I can't see him going back to Pyke and he is one of the few people who knows what Rickon looks like.

 

Could Arya be sent to kill Melisandre? I think it was way back in season 3 she told Arya she would see her again. I just can't think why the Faceless Men would want to kill her. I would love it if she was sent to try to kill Dany and ended up joing that motley crew in Mereen. I think Maisie would play off Conleth and Peter quite well.

 

I also wonder about Dany and the Dothraki. I think it would be highly ironic if she ends up getting this khalasar to follow her considering that was the whole point of her initial marriage to Drogo, though they were supposed to follow Viserys.  I just can't see them following her to Westeros though. If she doesn't end up leading them I just don't see the point to this interaction. Though I have to be honest I am not seeing the point to some other storylines in the book as well. (Aegon if he is fake).

 

I think we will be getting a lot of flashbacks next season which both excites and scares me. I love when the mention the history but the Maggy the Frog flashback I felt was meh - also there is so little time to wrap up the other characters stories I feel like onscreen time would be better spent on them.

 

At this point I have no idea what is going to happen with Jon. I wish George would hurry up and finish that book!

 

 The price of kill Dany when she was just a young girl with no dragons, army or city's was twice the cost of an entire army of sell swords. The price to kill her now that she rules a city, has 10,000 men and 3 dragons would be insane

[SeanC]

I am wondering where Theon's story is going to go next season. We know he won't be held by Stannis as the book chapters show, so were is he going to end up? I think he will be with Sansa for awhile but I can't see it all season especially as I feel she is going to end up back with Littlefinger in some way. The two of them splitting up will serve to force Ramsay to decide which one he wants back more. I think its Sansa, but we are talking about an insane man so who the hell knows. I am curious if Theon will go with Davos to look for Rickon. I can't see him going back to Pyke and he is one of the few people who knows what Rickon looks like.

I don't think Sansa ending up back with Littlefinger (which I agree will happen) means she separates from Theon.  There's no reason Littlefinger would care whether Theon was there or not, that I can see (if anything, he has value, being a Greyjoy, albeit a badly-mauled one).

 

The idea about his going with Davos is an interesting one, though.  Theon is one of those characters whose future I really don't have much of a sense of.

Edited July 11, 2015 by SeanC

[Chris24601]

I'm hoping that Sansa ends up NOT going back to Littlefinger after this... that the experience with the Boltons, like whatever goes down in the Vale in WoW, will have poisoned her against trusting him and she instead tracks north with Theon to meet up with Jon, Brie, Pod, Davos and the Wildlings.

 

IF Littlefinger and Sansa meet again I want it to be late in s6 or early s7 (let him deal with KL nonsense in s6 and eventually be run the heck out of dodge) because he's sought her out and I want it to be at a point where he can end up having to come face to face with the wights and the Walkers and know to his core just how pointless and petty his entire lifetime of schemes and betrayals has been. Then he can die (my preference would be for a Walker to freeze him solid so that he's alive until the very last moment and then shatter him into a thousand pieces because he's not even worth anything to them as a wight).

[nksarmi]

 The price of kill Dany when she was just a young girl with no dragons, army or city's was twice the cost of an entire army of sell swords. The price to kill her now that she rules a city, has 10,000 men and 3 dragons would be insane

Who cares about logic if we can get Ayra over with Dany and Tryion? :)

[Hecate7]

We have the word of Petyr Baelish. You're really going to take something Baelish told Robert Baratheon, as the truth? Twice the cost of an army of sellswords means different things depending on how big the army is, and who the sellswords are. Baelish might have told the truth, or he might had reasons of his own for overstating the case.

 

and how does Baelish know, better than anyone else around the table, what it takes to hire them?

Edited July 12, 2015 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

We have the word of Petyr Baelish. You're really going to take something Baelish told Robert Baratheon, as the truth? Twice the cost of an army of sellswords means different things depending on how big the army is, and who the sellswords are. Baelish might have told the truth, or he might had reasons of his own for overstating the case.

 

and how does Baelish know, better than anyone else around the table, what it takes to hire them?

When this came up during the reread, I felt somewhat inclined to take Littlefinger's word for it only because it was Pycelle's suggestion to use a Faceless Man and Pycelle doesn't contradict what Littlefinger is saying when he points out that they're insanely expensive. I also think it's totally in character for Littlefinger to have made inquiries about how much they cost only to be dismayed to learn that there's no way that he'd likely ever be able to afford one. 

[J----av]

Who cares about logic if we can get Ayra over with Dany and Tryion? :)

 Would love to see that, but would they stack Meereen with the three most popular characters in the show? I hope so

We have the word of Petyr Baelish. You're really going to take something Baelish told Robert Baratheon, as the truth? Twice the cost of an army of sellswords means different things depending on how big the army is, and who the sellswords are. Baelish might have told the truth, or he might had reasons of his own for overstating the case.

 

and how does Baelish know, better than anyone else around the table, what it takes to hire them?

 Given that it seems no one important or rich really uses the FM, and that Euron likely had to use a dragon egg to pay for a hit, i think its likely the FM are far to expensive to use to kill important people

[SeanC]

I'm hoping that Sansa ends up NOT going back to Littlefinger after this... that the experience with the Boltons, like whatever goes down in the Vale in WoW, will have poisoned her against trusting him and she instead tracks north with Theon to meet up with Jon, Brie, Pod, Davos and the Wildlings.

 

IF Littlefinger and Sansa meet again I want it to be late in s6 or early s7 (let him deal with KL nonsense in s6 and eventually be run the heck out of dodge) because he's sought her out and I want it to be at a point where he can end up having to come face to face with the wights and the Walkers and know to his core just how pointless and petty his entire lifetime of schemes and betrayals has been. Then he can die (my preference would be for a Walker to freeze him solid so that he's alive until the very last moment and then shatter him into a thousand pieces because he's not even worth anything to them as a wight).

Littlefinger's not staying in King's Landing -- indeed, since we didn't see him in the last three episodes at all, he may already have left.  He went to KL to obtain Cersei's go-ahead to invade the North, which he got.  He'll be moving forward with that plan, which will put him back in the same story area as Sansa.  Seeing as he's probably the main villain in her book story, this would be the writers trying to fit the pieces of the plot arc back together after sending Sansa on a Jeyne Poole detour.

 

Now, I expect she'll be heading for the Wall at the start of the season, since Littlefinger isn't close by even if she wanted to go to him (and, for the record, I don't think the writers are going to have this season be what turns her against him).

We have the word of Petyr Baelish. You're really going to take something Baelish told Robert Baratheon, as the truth? Twice the cost of an army of sellswords means different things depending on how big the army is, and who the sellswords are. Baelish might have told the truth, or he might had reasons of his own for overstating the case.

Nobody contradicts him, and what he says fits entirely with what we actually see of the Faceless Men, and other references (for instance, in TWOIAF it's stated that for the Prince of Dorne to hire a Faceless Man to kill Aegon I's son and heir Aenys would basically have meant selling off all the wealth of Dorne).

[benteen]

I don't think Sansa ending up back with Littlefinger (which I agree will happen) means she separates from Theon.  There's no reason Littlefinger would care whether Theon was there or not, that I can see (if anything, he has value, being a Greyjoy, albeit a badly-mauled one).

 

The idea about his going with Davos is an interesting one, though.  Theon is one of those characters whose future I really don't have much of a sense of.

 

Theon going with Davos...I guess he can fill the role of his squire Wex in the books.

[ElizaD]

Isaac:

 

“I can’t say a lot but I am back this season, and it’s going to get particularly interesting with Bran. He has some interesting visions,” he teased.

 

Isaac also hopes Kit Harington will also be back as Jon Snow for series six, according to rumours.

“I don’t know (if he will come back). He’s said he’s not,” he said.

“I wish he would because I love Kit and because the character’s so cool. Who knows? We start filming series six at the end of this month (July) so we’ll see.”

[Avaleigh]

From the formerly Unsullied book thread--

that's actually my problem. If you had a Robert Baratheon-esque character running around having bastards that'd be one thing. But it's two characters with practically identical origins that rose by complete coincidence. "Outcast character that believes himself to be the son of a Lord is actually a secret Targaryen that killed his mother in childbirth." Throw in a potentially fake secret Targaryen in Aegon, and it just feels like he's going to the "secret Targaryen" well one too many times.

 

 

This might have been one of the reasons that the show removed the character of Aegon. Tyrion won't be a Targayen he'll be a Hill. Sure, he could be legitimized but I can't really see the story getting into that territory. If Tyrion ends up getting a dragon I don't think he's going to be too worried about his bastard status--hell, I feel like he'd think that giving up his trueborn status in exchange for a having a dragon would be more than a fair trade off. 

If it was one guy who had a ton of bastards, or even if one of the main characters was an acknowledged bastard, that would be one thing. But you have two of the really major, main central POV characters who by complete coincidence share almost exactly the same secret origin story.

That feels a little sloppy to me.

 

I see Jon and Tyrion's stories as having similarities in a way but there are some big differences and I think it's interesting having two characters who end up dealing with a shock reveal about who their parents are because it's fun to compare and contrast the situations. At least it is for me. I think that Jon was conceived in passion and love whereas I think that Tyrion is a product of rape. We have Tyrion thinking that he's a trueborn nobleman all this time only to find out that he is a bastard after all as he's often felt himself to be. Meanwhile Jon who thinks that he's a lowly bastard is actually the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. 

 

I mean, I appreciate the thematic parallel of the three heads of the dragon being outcast Targaryens whose mothers died birthing them and who eventually went on to rise above the lowly roles they'd been cast in by the people around them, but I do wish it would play out a bit better than "All the best male characters are secret Targaryens, surprise!" which I strongly suspect at this point it can't, if that's the way it's going.

I guess this is another one of those subjective things because I don't see Tyrion as the best male character. He's hugely flawed just as they all are and I don't see it as the Targaryens being the best characters in general either. There are several characters that I like more than Tyrion and Dany. I was lukewarm on Jon with the first book but as the story went on I grew to love and root for his character. 

 

If anything I feel like there's an assumption that Stark = Good/Best/Right and that sort of annoys me. 

[Delta1212]

By "best" I didn't mean "good, heroic, etc" so much as "most popular."

And I'm not disagreeing about the interesting parallels. The problem I have is the double-reveal moreso than the circumstances. It's some interesting stuff that I'd have an easier time accepting if the story was up front about it from the beginning. As it is, if that's how it's going, we're going to wind up getting pretty much the exact same twist twice. And the further it gets into the story, the closer together those reveals are going to be, by necessity.

I don't hate the idea, but I do think there are some serious issues, especially when it's clearly written to have the parentage reveal be an unexpected twist for most people that maybe some of the more savvy readers will have figured out from foreshadowing. If we were all supposed to be clued in that these two are essentially living role reversals, even if the characters themselves don't know it, that could make for some interesting dramatic irony.

But since we're clearly not "supposed" to know what's going on, I can't give the story points for an implied theme that it can't really explore except in a "Hey, in retrospect, isn't it funny how..." way.

I'm much more forgiving of coincidences when they are part of the set up than when they are part of the resolution, which is how things are currently set up for these two if the theories are correct on both counts.

[Hecate7]

From the formerly Unsullied book thread--

 

This might have been one of the reasons that the show removed the character of Aegon. Tyrion won't be a Targayen he'll be a Hill. Sure, he could be legitimized but I can't really see the story getting into that territory. If Tyrion ends up getting a dragon I don't think he's going to be too worried about his bastard status--hell, I feel like he'd think that giving up his trueborn status in exchange for a having a dragon would be more than a fair trade off. 

 

I see Jon and Tyrion's stories as having similarities in a way but there are some big differences and I think it's interesting having two characters who end up dealing with a shock reveal about who their parents are because it's fun to compare and contrast the situations. At least it is for me. I think that Jon was conceived in passion and love whereas I think that Tyrion is a product of rape. We have Tyrion thinking that he's a trueborn nobleman all this time only to find out that he is a bastard after all as he's often felt himself to be. Meanwhile Jon who thinks that he's a lowly bastard is actually the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. 

 

 

 

Much of Tyrion's identity was bound up in being the Queen's brother. Now he will be the Queen's bastard half-brother. It works thematically and I think it's sort of clever and beautiful for Tyrion to be Jon Snow's uncle.

[nksarmi]

Much of Tyrion's identity was bound up in being the Queen's brother. Now he will be the Queen's bastard half-brother. It works thematically and I think it's sort of clever and beautiful for Tyrion to be Jon Snow's uncle.

I love Tyrion so I'll probably be interested no matter where his story goes and I would love, love, love any plot turn that gives me Tryion, Dany, and Jon together.  So if they are the three heads of the dragon, I will be thrilled.

 

However, I have had reservations because I like Tyrion better as Tywin's son but it wouldn't kill the story for me at all.  I have to say that I'm not sure the show has set up for it so I have my doubts it will happen, but they could always do it next season. Maybe the "our two terrible fathers" and what we have in common lines from Tyrion to Dany are supposed to foreshadow it?

[Audreythe2nd]

I don't know why it's just occurred to me over the past 24 hours, but I'm now convinced (mainly due to the casting notices) that we're headed back to the Riverlands/Riverrun/Twins during Season 6 for the comeuppance of Walder Frey at the hands of... The Blackfish. I admit that I completely forgot about him, but once I remembered him and his opportune pee break, I now have a feeling they are going to combine everything BwB/vengeance from the books with him, and it's all going to play out in its entirety (and not with any cliffhangers the way there are in the books) next season. Ergo, I think it's possible Brienne will head south to converge with her book counterpart.

 

Now, the missing piece in all of this - presuming I'm psychic - is whether Sansa heads north, or south and if she's in Brienne's company. I keep trying to force Brienne and Sansa together, but it never feels right no matter how I swing it. The show has given us two Sansa failures by Brienne, so I don't see how they're going to pick up next season with her successfully in her company. Also, I think Sansa finding out about Bran/Rickon AND Jon being Lord Commander is going to make her go north to the wall. If Brienne heads south, it could be because she thinks Sansa will have gone back to the Vale, having seen her with Littlefinger. She could then be captured by BwB offshoot/Blackfish who will see her Lannister sword and use her as a trap to lure Jaime. I've been trying to figure out how on earth Brienne collects Jaime when they are so far apart right now, but I then realized that a raven with a message (since he's back in King's Landing anyway) serves the same purpose without her having to do it physically. I realize Blackfish is not really a replacement for the total drama of Lady Stoneheart, but in the books he does interact with Jaime and there is some speculation that maybe he intercepts Jaime/Brienne somehow, so it's possible that's how they wanted to consolidate everything. I could see all of this coming to fruition next season.

 

I also wonder if, after winning her trial by combat, Cersei is going to send the Undead Mountain after Sansa, or at least after where she thinks Sansa is. Whether he makes it to her or not is up in the air.

 

I think everything that has to do with Sansa in the Vale has been completely skipped over and they are just going to put her where she should be after the Vale. The more I think about it, the more I think that Littlefinger is going to march on Winterfell, kill Roose and Ramsay (or something) and find Sansa not there. But I don't think she's going to end up back in his company, at least not immediately.

 

PS. I have no idea how Arya has anything to do with any of this, and it's a shame because I like Arya but she has to somehow become relevant to the main action again or else I don't care.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[benteen]

I'd love to see Blackfish reek vengeance on LF and Walder.  Especially after what Walder did to Cat.

[Haleth]

That would be a great scene in the next book to have the Blackfish join the BwB and meet up with Stoneheart.  I hope that's something GRRM has written.

[benteen]

I think Blackfish would be horrified to see what happened to Cat.

[Avaleigh]

That would be a great scene in the next book to have the Blackfish join the BwB and meet up with Stoneheart.  I hope that's something GRRM has written.

Lady Stoneheart is so messed up and vengeful these days that I could easily see her thinking that the Blackfish being suddenly absent after shit went down at the RW would be enough evidence to have him hanged. 

 

Short of seeing her daughters I don't think that there's anything much that would be able to get Lady Stoneheart to see reason. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[jjjmoss]

I speculate that...D&D will feel even more free to ignore any fandom complaints, now that the Emmys gave the show more noms than ever, with extra love from the actors, directors, cinematographers, and editors. "We must be doing everything right!"

[FemmyV]

I'm now convinced (mainly due to the casting notices) that we're headed back to the Riverlands/Riverrun/Twins during Season 6 for the comeuppance of Walder Frey at the hands of... The Blackfish

That's as good a spec as any, considering all the talk about

Cleganebowl

[Audreythe2nd]

Yeah I was trying to think about threads that the show seems to have deliberately introduced (ie. has practically gone out of its way to introduce) that they haven't picked up on again, and that's when I remembered a) the obvious one of Melisandre meeting the BwB and b) Blackfish attending the Red Wedding (which is not in the books) and the set-up of his escape plus the conversation between Bolton and Frey about how Blackfish was on the run and would probably try to hold Riverrun for Robb. And that has literally been the last we've heard of the Riverlands, no? Plus, I believe the actor who plays Walder Frey said he was told he would be coming back eventually, so I kind of file this whole story under "things that can be used later." Season 4 was bananas with the number of major events they had to get through, and then with Season 5 they might have made the decision of Dorne over Riverlands because we just saw the death of a very awesome character from there (Oberyn) and wanted to show some kind of fallout. The execution was obviously bleh, but that may have been the reasoning. Plus, it's possible whatever happens in the Riverlands has more momentum or involvement towards endgame. Basically, now that I've thought about it, I'm really excited and hope we do see Blackfish again. It could be really good.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[SeanC]

b) Blackfish attending the Red Wedding (which is not in the books) and the set-up of his escape plus the conversation between Bolton and Frey about how Blackfish was on the run and would probably try to hold Riverrun for Robb. And that has literally been the last we've heard of the Riverlands, no? 

Not quite.  Roose and Walder never said anything about the Blackfish trying to hold Riverrun, and in Season 4 we heard that Walder runs it now, from Brienne.  But otherwise, that's the last we've heard of the Riverlands.

[Hecate7]

Lady Stoneheart is so messed up and vengeful these days that I could easily see her thinking that the Blackfish being suddenly absent after shit went down at the RW would be enough evidence to have him hanged. 

 

Short of seeing her daughters I don't think that there's anything much that would be able to get Lady Stoneheart to see reason. 

 

I'm not sure even that could. I mean, so she sees her daughters. Then what?

[Audreythe2nd]

SeanC, I went back to watch that scene and you're right (the gameofthrones wiki told me otherwise for some reason). However, the actual exchange that happens is still nice and portentous for a show that loves its foreshadowing:

 

Roose: "The Blackfish escaped."

Walder: "An old man on the run with no allies. I have Tywin Lannister backing me. Who does he have?"

Roose: "As you say."

Edited July 20, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[Lady S.]

SeanC, I went back to watch that scene and you're right (the gameofthrones wiki told me otherwise for some reason).

You should never trust the gameofthrones wiki for more than the most basic facts tbh. I've noticed that a lot of the entries meld book and show info together.

[Avaleigh]

I'm not sure even that could. I mean, so she sees her daughters. Then what?

It would depend on the situation but I think Lady Stoneheart would be willing to give her life in order to save somebody else's and I only think she'd do that if she saw that one of her children still happened to be alive. Or maybe she'd do it to save one of those kids. I can see her kids being alive being the thing to get her to let go of her hate so that she can rest. 

[Hecate7]

I think Catelyn Stark would give her life for her children in a heartbeat, but I'm not so sure about Lady Stoneheart.

[Lady S.]

It would depend on the situation but I think Lady Stoneheart would be willing to give her life in order to save somebody else's and I only think she'd do that if she saw that one of her children still happened to be alive. Or maybe she'd do it to save one of those kids. I can see her kids being alive being the thing to get her to let go of her hate so that she can rest.

I find it interesting that the BwB appeared to be trying to arrange a reunion in the epilogue by still searching for Arya, and the orphanage Gendry was running in Feast (supposedly protected by the rest of the BwB) can be taken as a continuation of that. But with Stoneheart almost certainly cut from the show now, it looks increasingly likely to me that Brienne will have to end up killing her for good.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Lady S.

[Audreythe2nd]

I've already stated that I've read only chapters here and there so I don't have a full picture of this. I also don't have the books here with me, so I can't double check on the plausibility of this thing I'm about to ask. But is it at all possible that when Brienne comes to "collect" Jaime in his one chapter in Dance that Lady Stoneheart is already dead?

[AshleyN]

But is it at all possible that when Brienne comes to "collect" Jaime in his one chapter in Dance that Lady Stoneheart is already dead?

It's possible I suppose, but highly unlikely. For one, it's not GRRM's style to kill major characters "offscreen" (so to speak). And IIRC it's heavily implied that Brienne agreed to go after Jaime in order to stop Lady Stoneheart from executing Pod, which is a scenario that seems to fit with Brienne's arc and relationship with Jaime, in that she's put in a situation where there are no "honorable" options for her to take.

[Audreythe2nd]

And IIRC it's heavily implied that Brienne agreed to go after Jaime in order to stop Lady Stoneheart from executing Pod, which is a scenario that seems to fit with Brienne's arc and relationship with Jaime, in that she's put in a situation where there are no "honorable" options for her to take.

 

Oh yeah, I know that. What I'm wondering is if after she swears her sword and is cut down (to save Pod's life) some shit happens before she "goes after" Jaime. Like, it would still be fitting if she just outright lied to save both of their asses and then straight up murdered Stoneheart - it would still make Brienne feel totally dishonourable to have done that. I agree it's not the likeliest outcome of what has happened (because for one, how would she get out of there afterwards?), but there is definitely a big blank between the time Brienne shouts out and the time she comes to get Jaime. And I'm just trying to come up with possible red herrings that Martin could be dangling in front of us. Clearly we're meant to think that Brienne is luring Jaime into a trap. But is she?

 

Admittedly, the only other reason I'm even asking the question is because of how completely dismissive the showrunners have been about LS - it would make sense that they chose to eliminate her if she is so summarily disposed of. Again, I don't think this is what is happening in the book, but just seeing if it's at all a possibility.

[AshleyN]

Oh yeah, I know that. What I'm wondering is if after she swears her sword and is cut down (to save Pod's life) some shit happens before she "goes after" Jaime. Like, it would still be fitting if she just outright lied to save both of their asses and then straight up murdered Stoneheart - it would still make Brienne feel totally dishonourable to have done that. I agree it's not the likeliest outcome of what has happened (because for one, how would she get out of there afterwards?), but there is definitely a big blank between the time Brienne shouts out and the time she comes to get Jaime. And I'm just trying to come up with possible red herrings that Martin could be dangling in front of us. Clearly we're meant to think that Brienne is luring Jaime into a trap. But is she?

Yeah, Brienne killing Stoneheart makes a certain amount of sense, but again if that were to happen I think we'd see it ourselves. Every major character death I can think of in the series we've seen first hand through a POV character, and the one major death we were informed of second-hand (Davos) turned out to be a fake-out*, so it would be really weird if Catelyn's story ended with a "BTW, Lady Stoneheart is dead now" recap.

 

*This is also the main reason there's so much skepticism surrounding Stannis' "death" and the contents of the Pink Letter (although in this case the fact that the various Northern POVs are not ordered chronologically complicates things).

[nksarmi]

Oh yeah, I know that. What I'm wondering is if after she swears her sword and is cut down (to save Pod's life) some shit happens before she "goes after" Jaime. Like, it would still be fitting if she just outright lied to save both of their asses and then straight up murdered Stoneheart - it would still make Brienne feel totally dishonourable to have done that. I agree it's not the likeliest outcome of what has happened (because for one, how would she get out of there afterwards?), but there is definitely a big blank between the time Brienne shouts out and the time she comes to get Jaime. And I'm just trying to come up with possible red herrings that Martin could be dangling in front of us. Clearly we're meant to think that Brienne is luring Jaime into a trap. But is she?

 

Admittedly, the only other reason I'm even asking the question is because of how completely dismissive the showrunners have been about LS - it would make sense that they chose to eliminate her if she is so summarily disposed of. Again, I don't think this is what is happening in the book, but just seeing if it's at all a possibility.

For what it's worth, I believe I read Martin say that Lady Stoneheart is one of the characters that he wishes the show didn't cut so I don't think he is going to write her off without an interesting plot twist involving her.  Of course, he also said that Loras' brothers were important so who knows?

 

One of the reasons I liked the Trystane equals Aegon theory was that Martin hasn't said anything about them excluding Aegon from the show and he seems important in the books (rather he is real or not, he is working on mounting a war in the books).  I can only guess that he is the biggest red hearing to ever red hearing or the show runners still intend to bring him in somehow.

[Audreythe2nd]

One of the reasons I liked the Trystane equals Aegon theory was that Martin hasn't said anything about them excluding Aegon from the show and he seems important in the books

 

I'm of the opposite opinion that introducing a character like Aegon, another secret Targaryan ready to mount war and take over Westeros in the fifth book when we've followed Daenerys for four books/seasons would be a bad decision for TV and it's one of those things where, when I heard about it, I thought "OK, well obviously that's cut." I don't know how important he's going to be, and how they will get around it if he is. But he takes the focus away from Daenerys, and I think the focus needs to be on Daenerys in the east for the story to work on television.

[nksarmi]

I'm of the opposite opinion that introducing a character like Aegon, another secret Targaryan ready to mount war and take over Westeros in the fifth book when we've followed Daenerys for four books/seasons would be a bad decision for TV and it's one of those things where, when I heard about it, I thought "OK, well obviously that's cut." I don't know how important he's going to be, and how they will get around it if he is. But he takes the focus away from Daenerys, and I think the focus needs to be on Daenerys in the east for the story to work on television.

Well I didn't say I liked the character OR the story, I just said that if GRRM thinks Lady Stoneheart (who I actually consider relatively minor) or Loras' brothers (who are almost non entities in the books as far as I can recall) to be important than it makes me wonder about Aegon.

 

I was perfectly ok with the fact that the show cut Quentin (though I think I would have liked to see the daughter) because bringing in a character who seems to be important JUST to kill him off seems pointless.  However, as of yet, Aegon hasn't been killed or proven to be a fake (it actually never occurred to me to think he was a fake until I read that speculation here).  I suppose either of those things could happen in book six, but if they don't - I would think the show would need to bring him in (in some form or another) to make the story work.

 

I mean, I know a lot of people want Tyrion to be the third head of the dragon and even though I rather like that idea - since I so very much like Dany, Tyrion, and Jon - I have not ruled out that Aegon will be the third head. So if he is, I think the show has to bring him in, don't they? Or could they go that far away from GRRM's story?

[Hecate7]

 Regular people, killing regular people, for regular person money? We don't know much about them but it seems that the richer and more important the person who is making the hit has to pay more. As well as the more important the target the higher the price. Thats probably why people like Cersei don't hire them.

 

Given how big and powerful they are, if they'd not getting regular trade, enough to account for how they house and feed all these assassins and pay their overhead, then they must receive LOTS of donations, which we also don't see happening.

[Audreythe2nd]

I just said that if GRRM thinks Lady Stoneheart (who I actually consider relatively minor) or Loras' brothers (who are almost non entities in the books as far as I can recall) to be important than it makes me wonder about Aegon.

 

Great point. I really find it a little hard to glean meaning from GRRM when he said what he did about Lady Stoneheart, and the "importance" of certain characters. On one hand he said, (paraphrasing) "I wish they had included [Lady Stoneheart] because she had a purpose, whether or not the writers thought that purpose was enough..." so it made it sound like she was important to the plot. But then he also said that (paraphrasing again) "her purpose was to show how death changes a person." That sounds like a writer talking more about important themes, which is different. So if that's the case, that might mean she's essentially served her purpose already plot-wise (or will in the near future of novel-land) and can be replaced with some other element. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[J----av]

Given how big and powerful they are, if they'd not getting regular trade, enough to account for how they house and feed all these assassins and pay their overhead, then they must receive LOTS of donations, which we also don't see happening.

 But don't all the "staff" work for free? They have a nice building, but they seem to live a pretty simple life outside of the killing. And they might not be getting the Cersei money, but i'm sure they still get plenty of contracts. Donations are likely as well given they are kinda like a church and seem to have the respect of the people of Braavos (ships captain)

[Hecate7]

How do we know what contracts they get? And the "staff" might work for free, but they still need food, clothes, etc...and look at Arya's first job. Somehow she acquired a whole new wardrobe and an oyster cart full of oysters, which was filled at least twice. And that's just a day's expenses for an untrained apprentice. Imagine what it would cost them to cover Jaquen H'gar's travel expenses. How many of these people are there out in the field? How much does it really cost to hire them? We have not really been told.

 

They also have to pay for weapons, poisons, etc... and speaking of the ship's captain, how many of those coins are there? How and where are those minted, and what does that cost? There is a great deal about this whole organization that it unexplained.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Hecate7