S05.E07: The Gift

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis: 

Jon prepares for conflict. Sansa tries to talk to Theon. Brienne waits for a sign. Stannis remains stubborn. Jaime attempts to reconnect with family.

[90PercentGravity]

Cersai, you ignorant slut. What's a boy king to do now?

 

Poor Cersai. She should have known better than to trust Theon. It sounds like maybe Theon didn't totally sell her down the river, though.

 

Well, if Aemon knew anything about Jon's parentage, he took that to his grave. Also, dead Aemon looks remarkably like Michael Bolton.

 

The Essos stuff used to be my favorite part of the story, but I'm kind of over it. Hopefully Tyrion's involvement makes things interesting again.

 

Phew, I thought we were losing Bronn for sure, I'm a straight chick and even I was pretty mesmerized by that Dornish woman's rack.

[stillshimpy]

Heh, whereas I'm really glad that Bronn was spared, you know what would be nice too?  Fewer brutal rapes, just altogether, but in particular? At Winterfell.  

 

Actual dialogue from my home as that bullshit with Theon immediately betraying Sansa: 

 

Me: "Oh my God, Theon is an even bigger piece of shit than we thought he was." 

My husband: "No, that's about the size shit we knew him to be."  

 

True.  Killed children as props and that was before he was broken into tiny shards without dignity.  

 

Although, oh for fuck's sake, Story.  "Her heart gave out before I could even reach her face..."  We get it.  You're evil.  Get on with it and quit taking up screen-time.  

 

King's Landing stuff is going down about how we predicted it would be.  Littlefinger used the Lancel information against Cersei.  I don't know how having all the royalty and landed gentry in the land locked up benefits the High Sparrow, but I guess that's what we're bound to find out.  

 

So say, about Dany.  Does the show think I've forgotten that this is the same woman who was turned on by Kahl Drogo ripping a man's tongue out of his head in front of her?  Because I didn't.  Since when is Dany supposed to be sickened by the sight of violence?  She's had men burned alive, in front of her face. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[AngelKitty]

I have to admit I was surprised and pleased that Cersei got hers as soon as she did.

[Pallas]

I would be impressed if Theon never did regain a moment of dignity, if he didn't die trying to do something for Sansa.  Defying that trope -- the weak man who does evil but at the last, partially reclaims his manhood through his sacrifice -- would be more than clever.  It would make the point that there is such a thing as broken beyond repair, and we need to remember that.  I'm not predicting Theon will never raise a finger against Ramsay, but since I am convinced it will not help Sansa, I'd rather he didn't try. 

 

How did Littlefinger know to make a gift of Lancel?  I don't recall, but it must have been true that Littlefinger was aware -- that Ned told him -- of Cersei and Lancel's part in Robert's death?  Yet if Lancel has already confessed to the High Sparrow, what part did Litllefinger need to play?  When Lancel told Cersei he had repented, did he not add that he'd been forgiven?  I'd assumed that meant, to and by the High Sparrow.  Not?  

 

I'm afraid we're also right about the mutiny brewing at Castle Black, in Jon's absence.  Sigh.  It just seems a plot-boiler, like unto Stannis's endless and pointless delay in driving toward Winterfell: at least I don't feel certain about how that will end, whereas Jon...weil, I suppose it's possible that Jon wil l return and not be able to quell the mutiny.  That he (and Sam and Gilly) will be forced from Castle Black, and so -- perhaps even in his own mind -- be freed of his vow of neutrality.  Jon heads to Winterfell and helps defeat the Boltons?  Yet even if he were expelled from Castle Black, he'd just as likely go to the ruined nearby Castle and resume his Watch from there...

 

Tyrion had a good outing.  That's how you manage to stay interesting, even if you are laboring under protagonist's privilege. 

[gingerella]

Hmmm, well Cersei finally got herself into a big pickle didnt she? I was rather hoping she was being thrown into the cell with Marge because that? Would just be fun, right? Lancel is creepy as hell, isnt he? Just because you carve some devil symbol into your forehead does not a saint you make. Just sayin'.

I just cant discuss Sansa right now, other than to say I bope she fucking kills both Roose and Theon ASAP.

Castle Black is blacker than ever with Jon gone. And you know that Gilly will be knocke up with a lil Sam soon, right? Like, that was telegraphed from a shit ton of miles away. I just hope that Gilly doesnt get attacked again, I cant take any more raping, its just not entertaining in any way, at all. At.All.

Dornish women DO have great tits, dont they? No wonder songs are made about them!

I miss Jon Snow already...sniff...

ETA: Pallas, great call on how Jon and Sam might end up leaving the Nights Watch.

Edited May 25, 2015 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

I would be impressed if Theon never did regain a moment of dignity, if he didn't die trying to do something for Sansa.  Defying that trope -- the weak man who does evil but at the last, partially reclaims his manhood through his sacrifice -- would be more than clever.

 

Dude, it was clever the first two  times they did it. It was genuinely daring the first couple of times.  When it was a case of "Will Theon betray Bran and Rickon?  The only good he has left to do in the entire world is just to keep his mouth shut?  No, no he will not manage to keep that to himself, okay then.  Established character trait."

 

To really drive home the point?  "Will Theon react when told Robb Stark, the man who trusted him and whose family always treated Theon well (which he would now understand on a gajillion new levels), has been murdered.  While holding a straight razor to his torturer's neck?  Ah. Yes.  Apparently not."    

 

"Hey how about when Yara shows up to rescue him? Okay.  Still no.  So we've really underlined this motherfucking character trait, I see. " Good to know.  Nothing is budging this kid.  

After a certain point, everything following the Yara point, it stops being clever and it just starts being repetitive. It also just stinks to high heaven (yes, yes I know...reeks, give it up) of  doing it to screw with the audience more, and much worse, of being unable to think of a single other thing to do with the character.  In fact, they are taking the known character trait and making it worse.  Now he's not just broken, he's actively treacherous.  But narrative tension can only be sustained for so long and now they're just courting boredom, while really risking audience anger.   

 

By the way, let us examine some of the stupider stuff in this stupid ass story:  So the lady with the stalwart soul, but the poor heart manages to not think "I should call in the cavalry!  Clearly.  I mean, Ramsay is skinning lords and ladies who are loyal to the Starks. This is a very bad sign when he is betrothed to the last remaining Stark.  After all the North Remem....hmmm....what was I saying?  Can't recall."  For fucking real, either the North Remembers and can do jack over shit about it, or that poor old woman had good intentions and no power.  Because how'd she miss "I haven't seen Lady Sansa in days, and the Skinner has her locked away.  Behind a door.  Behind a whimpering, crying door.  Well, I'm sure she's fine!"  

 

Okay, she's a powerless cleaning lady.  At least show her trying.  How about Brienne?  Is she supposed to be slow, or moving through a time-dilation field?  "She's in danger.  I should probably wait here and reach out to elderly servants who are known for their ability to get stuff done and bring about power plays.  Or something."  

 

Brienne of Tarth,  She came to Winterfell to Loiter Endlessly.  And not be noticed by anyone.  As a six and a half foot tall, Lady Knight.  How plausible.  All of it.  (Giant. Thundering. Eye Roll.)

 

That's to say nothing of the absolute fucking hay day of Misogyny on Parade that was this episode.  How many locked up, beaten, SKINNED (unto heart failure, nice dash of overkill, you uninspired story) , raped, mistreated, lied to and abused women can you have in one episode?  That's not even counting the three locked up female warriors. Ellaria gets a better cell, I take it?  Or she's being beaten, etc. etc.  

 

Wait, they were afraid they hadn't hammered home the point yet: Dany will get a case of the Victorian Ladies at the fighting pits.  This despite every other established character trait about her, essentially ever.  Okay, that's not too bad.  That was the best part of the story.  

 

To really sail into Over-the-top and into the stratosphere land?  They have Melisandre asking Stannis to sacrifice his only living child.  Who we have recently been told he loves.  

 

Oh, but her mother doesn't.  So yeah, care to guess where that mess is headed?  The one redeeming trait Cersei possesses is that she loves her children.  Shireen's mom doesn't have even that redeeming trait.  She burns her brother as a heretic and would gladly beat her only living child. She escaped from a Disney movie circa 1947.  

 

In the "oh jebus, I can guess where they are taking this..."  Anyone want to take bets as to whether or the Sam beating, attempted-raping Crows will do to Ghost?  

 

This season, brought to you by: The Spinal Tap Volume Dial?  They're having a narrative momentum problem here, yo.

 

ETA: Despite what it sounds like, I actually didn't hate this episode.  Or even dislike it.  Things happened that made sense in the King's Landing story.  Even if I am not sure what the High Sparrow is up to, at least where that was going felt like it was earned from the moment Lancel was spotted again and his first act was to apologize to Cersei for the all the wrong stuff they did together.   

In other stories there has been progression that was both earned and made sense.  It isn't just treading torture water, which is pretty much everything having to do with Sansa at this point.  Also, Theon because they finally just made the poor wretch pitiable and for whatever reason needed to revisit not just his broken state (which...we.really.already.knew.repeatedly) but to establish that the only remaining part of him is to betray anyone with the last name Stark.  

 

Swell.  Well, at least he retained something?   

 

And where in the hell is Bran, by the way?  Growing roots?  He probably should be, His story has been stalled in one place.  He's on the damned Milk Carton Gang at this point.  A little less Kick the Sansa and a little more narrative momentum would be nice.  

Edited May 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

I was lost in a different dimension last week and didn't get to see Episode 6 until Sunday morning. Then I read all the interesting things you all wrote and went on to watch this episode. It feels like I only watched ONE episode and almost nothing happened anyway. At least a lot of the spitballs flung by you, my co-watchers, were on the mark. That worries my a bit though. Has the show hit it's sophomore slump? I don't really call saving Bronn from the accurately foreseen death-by-poison-blade exactly a plot twist. (but I am happy about it anyway). 

 

It was also good to see that the scene (in episode 5?) with Stannis and his darling daughter wasn't only for exposition - but we did suspect the reason Mel insisted that Shireen be brought along. 

 

Sorry if I end up mixing up things that occured in E06 with E07. It's going to be hard to keep them separate due to seeing them both on the same Sunday. That and the fact that everything seems to be going soooooo  slooooooooow. (again, I don't know if it's a predictable viewer's slump, or a show-runner's slump, or just a part of the story that has to be gotten through, sigh).

 

So, we had a dragon glass blade appear in E07, therefor it must be used in E09 (the episode when things happen, traditionally). Zombonies and White Walkers... we can only hope. 

 

Cersei gets what Cersei sows. Who saw that from 1000 miles away? Everybody here it seems. I didn't think that Littlefinger had anything to do with that though. I think his plot is still to be revealed  - or already dead in the water and in need of replacement due to the ending of this episode?

 

After the look on the High Sparrow's face when he caught Cersei in his trap, I think he actually played her right from the moment she came to him a few episodes back. He already knew everything she and Lancel had done. He was happy to catch any other high born sinners she gave him, but she was always in his sights. I thought his face took on a look of messianic zeal at the end there. (I've recently seen the actor in Wolf Hall, and although his character didn't display that look, Thomas More got to at one point.) Cersei might be able to think of herself as a kind and benevolent person compared to what the Sparrows could become. Mmm Hmm?

 

I also can't help but think that young Olly has to be important in a plot point soon due to all the lingering shots of him every time Jon Snow does anything with anybody. Overkill on that. 

 

And it's probably a good thing that Margery didn't eat the veal stew 'cuz I don't doubt it was poisoned. "I ate it myself last night" - bullshit!

 

(edited for spelling and punctuation and the like)

Edited May 25, 2015 by Anothermi

[ChocButterfly]

That and the fact that everything seems to be going soooooo  slooooooooow. (again, I don't know if it's a predictable viewer's slump, or a show-runner's slump, or just a part of the story that has to be gotten through, sigh).

Amen to that!! Sloooooow is the only way I have to describe this season so far. And the few things that have happened, are not that interesting or right down depressing (Sansa). The only part I liked about the episode was the Tyrion reveal and Cersei's. I knew what was coming to Cersei, but I'm glad it's come faster than I expected. Although, I'm not sure exactly where they're going with The Sparrows thing for the long run. They see so easy to defeat. Olenna's army could kill them all in an afternoon. Now she has an excuse to attack them, since they have imprisoned both Queens. Then, she could have Cersei killed in the middle of it all and accuse the Sparrows of it. But I'm sure that's not going to happen, as Cersei won't be killed by now. But that is what should happen. Seriously, jsut get rid of the damn Sparrows already, they're nothing but a cult.

 

I think I like the Little Snake now, if only because she saved Bronn. Why did she do that? Maybe she just wanted to hear him sing some more, since they seemed bored in that cell. He does have a lovely singing voice. I don't think Doran will do anything bad to them, as with Jaimie, he''l probably just keep him as his "host" until the wedding,  making sure that way that the Lannisters don't try anything else against them.

 

Ugh, Stannis plot is forever useless!! Like, duh! Winter came, because you waited 5 fucking episodes saying the snows were coming and you needed to attack as soon as possible! Well, why didn't you 5 episodes ago?? By now he would have taken Winterfell already. Now they'll all starve and freeze to death. I hope Shireen can make it  out alive. If Stannis had a bit of a brain (which he doesn't) he'd immediately send his daughter as far away as possible from both Mel and his wife with Davos.

[Pallas]

I didn't think that Littlefinger had anything to do with that though. I think his plot is still to be revealed  - or already dead in the water and in need of replacement due to the ending of this episode?

 

That's what has me perplexed too, anothermi.  Littlefinger told Olenna that as his contribution to their alliance, he was going to make to the High Sparrow the same gift that Cersei had: "A beautiful young man" (paraphrase).  Which I take to be Lancel, meant to be used in exactly the same way that Olyver was -- to testify against a Queen in the ecclesiastical court.  So as you also said, either the High Sparrow knew all along, and was using Cersei to make a case against the entire ruling class, or Littlefinger dropped the dime, and the High Sparrow then questioned Lancel.  The first would mean that for once, someone had more information than Littlefinger could make up, and moved faster than he could slither.  

 

Kick the Sansa indeed, shimpy.  So far, of course, it seems the story is setting up Sansa's rescue by a woman, from the hands of evil men.  I wonder if Brienne will face a choice: enact her revenge on Stannis on Renly's behalf, or protect Sansa, by way of honoring her vow to Catelyn.  Then again, she could also just go on researching her guidebook, "Bed and Breakfasts of the North: Off the Beaten Path."

[stillshimpy]

Cersei gets what Cersei sows. Who saw that from 1000 miles away? Everybody here it seems. I didn't think that Littlefinger had anything to do with that though. I think his plot is still to be revealed  - or already dead in the water and in need of replacement due to the ending of this episode?

 

Pretty sure that was Littiefinger's plot, anothermi.  Last week we got the "LF runs into Lancel Lannister on the streets of King's Landing. First thing.  They discuss how he's renounced his family name.  Wonder if that will be important?"  It wasn't just an establishing scene, we'd already seen Lancel bump into Cersei.  We'd already seen the brothels trashed.  The previously segment included that moment when Littlefinger bumps into Lancel. 

 

I'm fairly certain telling Lady Olenna that Cersei Lannister also had sins that could stick her in a cell and that, oh by the by, her co-conspirator was now a Sparrow was his plan.  It may have already lined up with the High Sparrow's plans, but it seems like that was it.  Maybe there's more, but Olenna would only be interested in a plot that would take out Cersei without roping in Tommen.  

 

I grant you, the High Sparrow did have a look on his face like the canary that swallowed the cat, so maybe it just lined up with what he was planning to do anyway.  It never did make sense that he was willing to help Cersei enact an obvious power-play.  

 

As for Jon Snow at The Wall, they've taken seven episodes to get where they started out and I was actually surprised as hell to see Jon was still there, since I swear two episodes ago they made kind of a point of how he was going to get on a ship and sail to some place North of the Wall to recruit the Wildlings.  This was apparently a reminder of the plot they already told us about.  Complete with Olly looking troubled and possibly angry. 

 

I guess I wouldn't be so darned frustrated if there weren't stories that would make more sense to pursue.  What's going on with the Whitewalkers, with Bran and King Root Dude?  Say, wasn't the Brotherhood without Bankroll (or Scruples) kind of a big deal a while back?  What happened with them?  Where's Blackfish Tully?  What the heck has become of Varys, while we're talking about stuff they could be showing, but are dedicated to not, so they can remind us:  Hey, do you know what Ramsay likes to do in his spare time?  What the heck is up in Mountainstein's laboratory?  

 

That's all part of my frustration with the "Let us revisit Winterfell and tell you stuff you already knew over and over and over, while neglecting stuff you must be wondering about."  Maybe I'm really underestimating the story and there's going to be this giant payoff to the latest round of "Let's torture this teenage girl a bit more, because that just never gets old"  but seeing as Stannis and Bolton are on a collision course , unless the gates of Winterfell open to reveal Sansa Stark gone all "River Tam at the end of Serenity" with the bodies of her enemies in the background and dripping battleaxes in her grip while Stannis's army yells "Stand down Stand down!"  then it just seems like exceptionally twisted filler to me.  

 

Maybe I'm wildly underestimating the story.  I mean, Sansa did appear to grab a nail, so who knows? Maybe Bolton's Gang better smoke 'em if they've got 'em, 'cause they're all going down.  Who knows?  It just seems more likely that they are just churning the same material for a full season and going nowhere with it.  

 

There's one other thing:  Yay, I couldn't be happier that Bronn isn't going to join the pile of "I liked that character, therefore he died horribly" dead.  I did find it a tad silly that it turned out to be HBO's excuse to have long, lingering shots of  breasts.  Yes, she had an amazing figure, and I admit it was such an obvious "How long has it been since we've shown breasts for at least 45 seconds worth of screen time? Damn, it's nearly three episodes, isn't it?  Whose idea was it to shut down those brothels?  How will we fulfill our titillating material quota?  I know, let's have Bronn so mesmerized by breasts that he can't speak" that it was actually closer to funny than anything else. 

 

I'm glad Bronn was spared, but having yet another female character have magic breasts is -- well actually it is pretty funny, even if it is still more 'been there, done that' -- again, something they've done before: Roz, Melisandre's magical rack and now Oberyn's beautiful daughter whose name I don't even know.  

 

ETA:  On the High Sparrow "Doesn't it seem like that was going to be his plan anyway?"  Maybe in order for it not to look like a naked bid for his own power, the Head Bird needed the accusations to come from outside of his organization, lest they look trumped up and rally the people from the outside?  Not that anyone would fly to Cersei's aid, but that's the only thing I can think of here.  

 

And I apologize, because I really don't want to be one of those sourpusses who can't find enjoyment in anything, because that really isn't it.  I just have a bad case of the "....and then what happened?  Come on, Show, time's a-wasting and by the time you get anywhere with any of this, you'll then make me wait for another full year before anything else happens."  

Edited May 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[AngelKitty]

unless the gates of Winterfell open to reveal Sansa Stark gone all "River Tam at the end of Serenity" with the bodies of her enemies in the background and dripping battleaxes in her grip while Stannis's army yells "Stand down Stand down!"

 

So, that would be the coolest thing ever!

 

Just to get this straight in my head:  Lancel helped Cersei to kill off her husband.  Were they also having sex?  Are they related? Does he also know about Jamie?  Will the High Sparrow try her for incest too? And where would that leave Tommen?

[90PercentGravity]

Lancel Lannister is Cersai's cousin. And, yes, they were having sex while Jaime was off gallivanting around with Brienne. I don't know if it was ever really clear that Robert's death was intentional, but Lancel was the one keeping him plied with wine.

[ChocButterfly]

I think it was heavily implied that they put something in Robert's wine to make him dizzy. Lancel does feel responsible for his death as he told Cersei.

 

Which brings me to a question, why isn't Lancel being punished by the Sparrows as well? Is sayin he's sorry enough? Same as that Olliver dude, shouldn't he also be on trial? Loras didn't fuck himself all alone. Plus, how is it that the testimony of one known prostitute (who was already breaking their religious laws) more valuable than the testimony of 2 people (Loras and Margeary) who have not been proved to brake any laws before this and who one of them is the Queen? That Fucking head Sparrow does have an ax to grind. 

 

Oh, and why Isn't Littlefinger being prosecuted for owning what they consider and abominable business?

[Anothermi]

Which brings me to a question, why isn't Lancel being punished by the Sparrows as well? Is sayin he's sorry enough? Same as that Olliver dude, shouldn't he also be on trial? Loras didn't fuck himself all alone. Plus, how is it that the testimony of one known prostitute (who was already breaking their religious laws) more valuable than the testimony of 2 people (Loras and Margeary) who have not been proved to brake any laws before this and who one of them is the Queen? That Fucking head Sparrow does have an ax to grind. 

 

Oh, and why Isn't Littlefinger being prosecuted for owning what they consider and abominable business?

 

Pretty sure the High Sparrow explained about Lancel when he was playing mind games with Cersei before having her incarcerated. It seems Lancel laid bare his sins, honestly abhorred them and was willing to atone. Now he has become as light and free as only a Sparrow can be. 

 

It's true that it seems that only the high born are being gone after, but the High Sparrow constantly points out that the poor and lowly are always paying for their sins - be it with meted out punishment or starvation or wars or daily degradation. I've gotta give him that point. It also seems that Ollivar at least admitted his sins (it sounds like he didn't have a lot of choice about being with Loras. He was supposed to be a squire, not a prostitute, although it did benefit him and he seemed to be into Loras so my point may just be semantics. But at least he didn't lie about it.)

 

The part I don't get is why the Sparrows don't go after Littlefinger as the owner of the den of iniquity. Maybe they will try. They did stop him in the street and surround him. It seemed that it was only the fact that he was in town by order of the Queen that allowed him to depart without a fight. He does seem to know he has to watch his own back.  Yay for rules and procedures! He's good a manipulating them.

[Pallas]

As for Jon Snow at The Wall, they've taken seven episodes to get where they started out and I was actually surprised as hell to see Jon was still there, since I swear two episodes ago they made kind of a point of how he was going to get on a ship and sail to some place North of the Wall to recruit the Wildlings.  This was apparently a reminder of the plot they already told us about.  Complete with Olly looking troubled and possibly angry.

 

This made me laugh enough to wake up the cat in my lap; then the image of Sansa Stark as River Tam, doing her best "Buffy who?", sent the cat off my lap like Olenna parting company with Littlefinger.  

 

I like that Jonathan Pryce and his story are ambiguous enough that I have no idea if the High Sparrow is a sincere messianic revolutionary, in the liberation theology model of Jesus, or if he started that way but is already getting done in from within by wielding political power, or if he's more a half-humble-believer/half-master-manipulator on the order of Melisandre.

[Anothermi]

I like that Jonathan Pryce and his story are ambiguous enough that I have no idea if the High Sparrow is a sincere messianic revolutionary, in the liberation theology model of Jesus, or if he started that way but is already getting done in from within by wielding political power, or if he's more a half-humble-believer/half-master-manipulator on the order of Melisandre.

 

Yup. At least that is something new for us to think about. I hope this story gets a bit of complexity. I already find myself torn between my attachment to the regular characters he is opposed to and the general truths that the High Sparrow speaks that I agree with. 

[ChocButterfly]

Sansa did grab something when she was out, what was it, a knife? I don't think she'll be able to kill Ramsey with that though. It only reminded me of Theon's words: "it can always gets worst". Ugh.

 

By the way, who is Eggmon? I mean the Mad King's name was another, so what happened to this Egg?? Did Sam say he was supposed to be king when Aemon joined the NW? I'll have to watch that part again. I was disappointing to see Aemon died, not that I was that fond of the character, but I thought he had more interesting information to reveal before his death. No, I'm not talking about Jon's true parentage; I wouldn't think he had any reason to know, since he was already in the Night's Watch when any of that happened. He must have been in the NW for a long time by them. In fact, he seemed so old, that I wouldn't have been surprised if he had seen the last remaining dragons when he was little. But I would have wanted to know a bit more history of his family, the dragons or what he thought of Danarys and her dragons. Did he even know about Danarys? I don't know, it seems like a waste of a character who could have given us more actual important exposition, instead of the Neverending Ramsey's Torture Story.

[janjan]

Aw right, Show, enough with the Ramsay'ing. We get it -- he's mean and the innocent get picked on. That's been done more economically: "Life is pain, Highness -- anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something." You don't have to keep showing it over and over until it becomes cartoonish. Maybe A Show will defy all tropes and let Ramsay live happily ever after as Lord of Winterfell, with pieces of his Goodwife Sansa by his side. By now, I don't care.

 

I'm still a little vague on how LF brought Cersei down. So LF tells Olenna about Lancel, and Olenna tells Big Bird. How did LF know about Lancel, and how did Big Bird NOT know? As mentioned upthread, Lancel confessed and now his soul is free as a Little Bird. If he confessed just now, BB must be annoyed that he kept his secret a long time, even through the Holy Branding. If he confessed a while ago, he must not have mentioned Cersei at the time -- again with the secrets. Either A Show is finessing it, or else Big Bird uses confessions selectively as suits his purposes, whatever they are. If it were anyone other than Jonathan Price, this could get boring.

 

So Jon and Sam have both broken their vows, and the NW is seething with mutinous thoughts. A bunch of thieves and rapers is no match for WWs anyway, so let's just disband them. BTW, when Stannis the Grammar Nazi was explaining to Davos why he wouldn't leave his womenfolk behind at Castle Black, he said there were rapists there. Not rapers. Go Stannis!

 

If Mel needs King's blood for her magic, why use Shireen? Why not one of the bottled sons? They wouldn't mind.

[Pallas]

The Egg is Aegon, Aemon's younger brother.  Aemon told Jon of how he renounced his own place in the line of succession; the Egg became King, and best known for fathering the Mad King.  That makes Aegon Dany's grandfather, as Aemon was her great-uncle.

[ChocButterfly]

The Egg is Aegon, Aemon's younger brother.  Aemon told Jon of how he renounced his own place in the line of succession; the Egg became King, and best known for fathering the Mad King.  That makes Aegon Dany's grandfather, as Aemon was her great-uncle.

Ohh, thanks! I was confused, I thought Aemon was the Mad King's brother. So he was really, really old, my assumption that he must have met some dragons in his lifetime seems more founded now. So why would Aemon have any info about Jon's parentage at all? He had been cut out from family affairs ages ago.

 

I'm still a little vague on how LF brought Cersei down. So LF tells Olenna about Lancel, and Olenna tells Big Bird. How did LF know about Lancel, and how did Big Bird NOT know? As mentioned upthread, Lancel confessed and now his soul is free as a Little Bird. If he confessed just now, BB must be annoyed that he kept his secret a long time, even through the Holy Branding. If he confessed a while ago, he must not have mentioned Cersei at the time -- again with the secrets. Either A Show is finessing it, or else Big Bird uses confessions selectively as suits his purposes, whatever they are. If it were anyone other than Jonathan Price, this could get boring.

 

Heh, "Big Bird", I'm going to start using that, with your permission. I was also confused about LF's "gift". I'm still not sure it was LF that told Big Bird, or if Lancel had spilled the beans before. Either way, I'm sure Big Bird had heard the rumors about Cersei and Jaimie, so he's been just using her to get her at the end.

 

I hope with Tyrion at Mereen, Dany's story finally gets interesting (along with her wedding!). What if lover guy was right and that Hizdar dude is the leader of the Harpies? He seems like an honest guy, but in this show, one never knows.

 

Now we have 2 lines that sum up the show: "If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention"; and: "It can always get worse."

[Anothermi]

I like that even Targareyens have cute but demeaning nicknames for their siblings. See? They're no different than you and me. "Egg! That is MY toy! Give it back or I'll take you to the kitchens and add you to an omelette!"

 

(edited because I need a Stannis app to correct my spelling and grammar)

Edited May 25, 2015 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

Sansa did grab something when she was out, what was it, a knife? I don't think she'll be able to kill Ramsey with that though. It only reminded me of Theon's words: "it can always gets worst". Ugh. - ChocButterfly

 

 

I thought it was some kind of a corkscrew. Shimpy mentioned it could be a nail or something. I went back to check - it's one of the scenes at Winterfell I thought was safe to watch... and I had the sound off... and I stopped when she picked it up - and with persistence I confirmed for myself that it had a corkscrew-like tip on it. So I have to conclude that, with all the experience Sansa has gained from her time in King's Landing, she is going to use it to open a lot of wine bottles and keep herself in a perpetual state of maudlin (and hopefully sarcastic) drunkenness just like she learned from her almost mother-in-law Cersei. 

 

Hopefully she didn't learn how to hatch cockamamy schemes from Cersei. We all know how well that will go. 

[gingerella]

It was indeed a corkscrew type thing that Sansa pocketed and I hope to motherFUCKINGhell she uses it to corkscrew right into Bolton's heart, or anyplace that could kill him rather instantly.  As you all know, I too am well past the point of caring about the abusive Sansa Tales of Rape and Torture. But even more than that, it just does not make sense as part of the story to me. Not at all. And I begin questioning if this is where the Show departs from the Books. And if so, why, because like I said, it makes so fuckin' sense. To torture and rape the last known living Stark in her own home castle just is idiotic. And if the Northerners are all that, why don't they fuckin' rise up and burn the House of Bolton down. Or take the father and son out simultaneously. Those Northerners need to put on their damn sneakers and Just.Do.It. already.  Enough with what a hearty bunch the North is. Right now they've been nothing but a bunch of dirty pussies and I mean that in a dirty with dirt sense.

 

Brienne, useless. The Night's Watch, pretty useless without Jon. Sam, useless unless Ghost is beside him. Speaking of which, GHOST PUPPY!!!!!! I love that Ghost seems to be watching over Sam in Jon's absence, that is beyond groovy, something I can totally get with, compared to the rest of this shite we're being served up this season.  Back to my useless list...Theon, beyond useless. The general inhabitants of Winterfell, useless. Jamie, useless. Bronn, useless. Stannis, useless. Mel, annoying and useless. The snakes, useless, except when showing their youthful tits and sharing anti poison antidotes. The fighting pits, useless and disgusting.

 

This show has gone off the rails and again, I question whether the actual books are like this too because it makes no sense how so many people can love this series if THIS SHIT is what it really is. If the show runners have fucked with things to the extent that even an Unsullied can detect bullshit without even knowing what said bullshit actually is, then that does not bode well for the remainder of A Show. OTOH, I don't know why anyone who has half a fucking brain would change up a story to diverge from the real story to the point where it pisses people off, you know what I mean? That is just stupid and moronic.  Either way, I will be hella pissed when this shit is over - assuming I stick with it, and that's iffy right at the moment because it's no longer entertaining - I will be seriously pissed off of I find that a lot of this never happened in the books because it will have meant I wasted my time with this crap.

 

And speaking of entertaining and not entertaining, I think TPTB need to get a big ass REALITY CHECK and remember that it's not entertaining to watch any show, story, series, whatever, when there is NObody to root for anymore, and that's nearly where we're at right now. I can barely root for Stannis because of that idiot witch, Mel, and his horrible wife, and his bad decision making - he should adopt George Constanza's philosophy and adopt backwards day because right now, his decisions other than riding to rescue the NW, have been utter shit.  The NW are starting to revert back to their original recipe rapist/killer modes and that's not a crew worth rooting for. Assuming Jon is off the canvas en route to the Wildling encampments for the remainder of the season, there is nothing at the Wall I care to root for. Definitely NOTHING at Winterfell to root for anymore. Cant really root for Brienne when she'd doing fuck all twiddling her fucking thumbs waiting "for a sign" from someone who is a tortured prisoner. Cant root for Rickon because he's MIA. Cant root for Bran because he's literally with Root Dude, maaaaybe, we don't really know. Nothing to root for in KL, pretty much everyone there is a shithead so who cares who dies and who lives there? Torch the entire place with pigshit for all I care! Mereen? Who gives a shit?! They use human beings as cock fight participants (pun semi intended because it was just too easy not to). Dragons? Whatever. They're in a time out so who knows what they're up to other than BBQing random humans when possible. Dorne? Doran seems useless and ineffective, Ellaria has become psycho 2.0, her "children" are useless and in the clink. Dorne isn't worth rooting for right now either.

 

So where does that leave us/me? Not very entertaining when you lay it out like that, is it?

[Anothermi]

The Brienne part of your rant reminded me of a question I forgot, Gingerella. It's not necessarily a question for you, but reading that part of your post brought it up for me. 

 

Theon didn't get to reclaim the spark of humanity he seemed to have gotten from Sansa's plight because Ramsey was using the top of the abandoned tower as an office of sorts. Perhaps it's where he writes in his secret diary? Theon didn't know about it and up to this point I thought Ramsey took "Reek" with him everywhere he went. 

 

Did Ramsey find out about Brienne's signal? If so, how? From the time-line presented to us it wasn't from Sansa's old servant - she didn't get flayed until Reek had to come up with a reason why he was there at the top of the old tower without Ramsey inviting him. So who? and How? and When?

 

Having Ramsey ensconced up there - amongst all that cosy Den furnishing - was a bit too convenient for me. I suppose we are supposed to just assume Ramsey had learned about Brienne's Super Seekrit Signal because he's the story's 2nd resident evil genius.  I don't buy that, or at least I won't buy that. Not even if they throw in a free replica flaying rack. It reeks (pun intended) of lazy writing continuity.  Damn. The more I think about it the more pissed off it makes me. It's another indication of what others have been criticizing. Too much dwelling on Sansa being tortured and too little on character development and context.  

Edited May 25, 2015 by Anothermi

[90PercentGravity]

Theon didn't get to reclaim the spark of humanity he seemed to have gotten from Sansa's plight because Ramsey was using the top of the abandoned tower as an office of sorts. Perhaps it's where he writes in his secret diary? Theon didn't know about it and up to this point I thought Ramsey took "Reek" with him everywhere he went.

 

No, I don't think so. I think when he looked at the tower it was just misdirection. We were supposed to think he was going up the tower, but really he was going to see Ramsey. I don't think that Ramsey was actually in the tower.

[ChocButterfly]

What 90% said. Also, agree with Ginger, how much of a pussy are these so called super tough Northerners?They all know the only remaining Stark is a prisoner being tortured in her own home, by those who betrayed their "King", and they do nothing??? The North remembers, well stop fucking remembering and actually do something before that crazy psychopath kills the Stark heiress!!! Their Lords are being flayed alive and they do nothing! Bunch of useless people.

 

Although I'm not sure I agree with you that this must be a departure from the books. We all know how sadistic a Show can be. I don't see this as anything different than what we have seen. Remember the Neverending story of Theon's Torture? The only different thing now is that is happening to a character we actually care about. But that's also in dispute, since in family (none book readers, except my brother) they all hate Sansa and they kind of think she deserves her fate!! Yeah, I know,  I don't get it either, specially when I try to ask them why they hate her so much, the most they can come up with is she was too stupid and wanted to marry Joffrey! Like, dude, she was a kid, she wanted to marry a Prince, what's so wrong about it?

 

The only thing I have always heard about the books (not spoiler, don't worry), is that they can be very tedious sometimes, that's why my brother stopped reading them, he said. So, it makes sense the show can also get tedious at times. So I'm not sure there's any departure from the books. I mean, I'm sure they have cut plots, summarized and got rid of some characters. You always need to do that when translating to TV or movies. But not change entire plots, you can't do that, can you? The only thing I will keep believing is a departure from the books is the whole Necklace Gate thing. I hope is a departure, because it sure was really stupid!!

 

Either way, I don't really care. I'm watching a Show, not reading the books. And I expect the show to keep me entertained, or else I'll cancel my HBO subscription, cuz the show is the reason I got it in the first place. And I'm not alone, I've heard many say how tired they're getting of it. I hope they pull off one of t those magnificent episodes they know how to do, SOON,  or they'll lose audience.

[WhiteStumbler]

I feel you gingerella. Useless! USELESS!!

Jaqen lost all of his Charisma points when he crossed the Narrow Sea. He went from Enigma in Lannister armor to Mystic in a Toga. I was psyched to see Braavos, but we have seen one street scene, an eye-strainingly dark interior, and a huge exterior. This is not the Braavos I expected.

There used to be some plot twist or we would learn something new about a character's... character and, the more I thought about it the more it made sense and seemed inevitable. This season, A Show is either spinning it's wheels or doing something that makes no sense. I still love the world the show has created, but I'm feeling less and less invested.

A small example-- Stannis offered to make Jon Lord of Winterfell, and Jon declined, but there was NO mention of the actual heirs to Winterfell even though Jon knew that (at least) Bran was recently seen alive. Maybe Jon didn't trust Stannis with that info. OK, then have Jon discuss that aspect with Sam when Jon says 'I won't accept '.

The last three episode had better be E. P. I. C!

[gingerella]

Thanks to my fellow Spitball Wall brethren for the moral and emotional support! Most appreciated...and remember, an Unsullied Never Forgets...

Choc said:

Although I'm not sure I agree with you that this must be a departure from the books. We all know how sadistic a Show can be. I don't see this as anything different than what we have seen. Remember the Neverending story of Theon's Torture? The only different thing now is that is happening to a character we actually care about.

Choc, I hear you on the books, I guess I also felt the same way about Theon's torture, it went on much too long. I wonder when they drag out and rehash over and over and over again, "is it like this in the books?" because if so, how could so many people slog through them willingly? I suppose that's when my bullshit detector goes off. But perhaps the tedium is to force us to feel how awful and dire these people's lives are.  Who the fuck knows, all I know is, it's not entertaining right now and yeah, they need to pull a rabbit out of A Show's ass STAT! These last three episodes better rock the fuck out, that's all I'm sayin'. I better get a shred of comeuppance related to Sansa; some forward movement from Stannis; SOMETHING from Brienne (see: Sansa); and I wanna see Jon again at least once this season. Other than that, I don't care about Cersei, really. I don't care about Dorne right now. In fact, I sort of loved that Myrcella is like "screw you Uncle Jamie, you made me come here, now I like it and I aint goin' back to that shithole know as KL, so suck on that Uncle!" That? Was actually the best moment last night for A Viewer.

[Anothermi]

No, I don't think so. I think when he looked at the tower it was just misdirection. We were supposed to think he was going up the tower, but really he was going to see Ramsey. I don't think that Ramsey was actually in the tower.

 

So I watched this again and you are right. Silly me. The Show tricked me again. Such fun. </sarcasm>  So now I have to conclude that Reek has the freedom to adopt the "Theon" persona that Ramsey trained him for in order to get out of an uncomfortable situation - because I saw him straighten up and look Sansa in the eye to affirm that he would do as she asked.  No character development or struggle - which I am confident Alfie Allen could have hit out of the park if given the chance. What's the point? It's more fun to screw with the viewers. Oh. Dear. This cannot end well.

[stillshimpy]

Well, here's the thing to remember with the written word vs. what is presented on the screen for almost anything:  We're missing details like inner-monologues that spell out the character development.  It's really possible that Theon-at-Torture-Land Forever was fascinating in print.  Maybe he thought over every aspect of his life, all 128 Hours on the situation or something.  Perhaps he went over every moment of his childhood, his lost loves, etc. etc.  

 

Similarly maybe all this material in the books about Sansa's imprisonment is incredibly illuminating.  Maybe it's steeling her resolve to do something.  

 

But none of that freaking matters because on screen it isn't working at present.  Even if these are the moments that are forging Sansa's character into Unbreakable and Indomitable Stuff of Legend, the problem for me is it isn't translating.  Maybe it is a case of "yet" but holy Hannah, we're in the seventh episode of the season.  It's not like time hasn't already been invested in the effort. 

 

I'm with the chant of Useless on too many fronts, by the way.  Although at least I did get sort of a kick out of Myrcella just plain-old telling Jaime "Holy shit, you're useless and you don't know me.  Go home and leave me be. You're trying to rescue me from my happy life, Uncle Moron. Begone before you ruin it."    Contrast that with Jaime's former partner in crime, the Lurker at Winterfell.  

 

Cant really root for Brienne when she'd doing fuck all twiddling her fucking thumbs waiting "for a sign" from someone who is a tortured prisoner.

 

Precisely.  "Uh...what if she's in so much danger and trouble that she can't send the signal, Brienne? Did you think that one through, because I'm guessing you didn't yet and gods know, you've had time. "

 

You know what might have made for an interesting story?  Not having Ramsay behave like a rabid dog for a few episodes.  It would have been interesting if he'd tried to court Sansa, disastrously, because it would have given the audience a chance to know Ramsay as a character vs. the story's boogeyman. 

[Pallas]

It would have been interesting if he'd tried to court Sansa, disastrously, because it would have given the audience a chance to know Ramsay as a character vs. the story's boogeyman.

 

Yes.  Remember the amazing scene that the writers and Jack Gleeson pulled off, when Joffrey apologized to Sansa and swore that from henceforth, he would forever honor her as "My Lady," and gave her the necklace?  I swooned.  Laughing a bit bitterly, mocking my heart for the cur that it is, I swooned.  Knowing Joffrey, knowing that he was acting on his mother's orders, knowing even then that whatever happened -- and very soon -- this rapt moment could become the girl's most galling memory...

 

I'm barely going to stir myself to suggest, maybe the writers thought they shouldn't repeat themselves.  What: repeat themselves, with Ramsay?  Risk that we recall a scene from four years past -- with Ramsay?   Pain us with the mere suggestion of redundant narrative, with regard to Ramsay?  

 

I love your point, gingerella, that something is profoundly rotten in Westeros, when we Unsullied are suddenly jerking our gaze away from the screen and asking the thin air, "Wait -- is that in the books?"

[gingerella]

Similarly maybe all this material in the books about Sansa's imprisonment is incredibly illuminating.  Maybe it's steeling her resolve to do something. 

 

But none of that freaking matters because on screen it isn't working at present.

This, the bolded part a millionth percent!

 

I love your point, gingerella, that something is profoundly rotten in Westeros, when we Unsullied are suddenly jerking our gaze away from the screen and asking the thin air, "Wait -- is that in the books?"

I guess this is mainly my point, in a nutshell and all that rot. That and IT'S JUST NOT WORKING WRITERS, FIX IT.

Edited May 26, 2015 by gingerella

[Llywela]

It also seems that Ollivar at least admitted his sins (it sounds like he didn't have a lot of choice about being with Loras. He was supposed to be a squire, not a prostitute, although it did benefit him and he seemed to be into Loras so my point may just be semantics. But at least he didn't lie about it.)

I'm pretty sure Olyvar was lying about being a squire. He's been working at Littlefinger's brothel, running it for him, for years now - usually as a background figure, but he's been there a long, long time. He was there when Oberyn and Ellaria decided to camp out there last season. He was there when the Sparrows raided the place. If he was a squire turned Loras's lover, he wouldn't be attached to the brothel.

 

The only point I can see to Ramsay's treatment of Sansa seems to be to reinforce what we already knew: that Ramsay has no long game. I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever that he'd treat Sansa this way the moment he's married to her. The whole point of marrying him to a Stark is to give him and his family's rule legitimacy, and that's a freaking long game. For it to have any meaning, you have to actually play the game, which means acting the part of a committed husband and wife, living together like normal people - heck, even Cersei managed it with Robert all those years. That facade of normality and respectability. Because that marriage is a political alliance that has to last years. But Ramsay? Marries the girl and locks her up as a sex slave the moment the ceremony is over. Starts abusing her immediately, just because he can and for no other reason whatsoever that I can see. Because it's apparently all there is to him. There's no long game there. What surprises me is that Roose is allowing it. I'd have thought at least he'd expect the facade of normality and respectability. If all they are going to do is lock her up as a prisoner and mistreat her, what was the point of the marriage in the first place? It seems to defeat the object. Unless this mistreatment is top secret - but again, there's no long game there. It'll come out eventually, and again, that defeats the entire object of marrying a Stark in the first place. It makes no sense and there's been no attempt to explain it beyond 'Ramsay is a sociopath with no political game'.

 

It's been interesting to read all your 'the books can't possibly be like this, can they?' speculation. I think any screen adaptation of any novel inevitably loses a heck of a lot in the translation and streamlining, but some are worse than others - the new adaptation of Poldark, for instance, filled me with sorrow and fury for how superficial it was compared with what it could have been. What gets me with GoT is how much time this show spends spinning its heels, telling us the same things over and over with nothing seeming to actually happen. I mean, I've seen those books on shelves - they're big, fat, weighty tomes! They can't possibly be this repetitive, surely, or they wouldn't be so popular? Maybe they've been streamlined too much, removing characters and sub-plots that we actually need to liven things up a bit and keep the story moving!

Edited May 26, 2015 by Llywela

[WhiteStumbler]

Loved your post, Llywela. Agree with much of it. Neither Ramsay nor Big Bird have a long game.

Small point, but Polliver was introduced as being a squire for Loras at the same time he was a spy for Littlefinger. P and L end up in bed together, and then P tells LF about the Tyrell plan to marry L to Sansa.

Now, did he become "attached" to LF Brothel before or after he started spying? No idea. That was back before the plot went off the rails. :-)

[janjan]

At least winter finally came, after threatening to for five freakin' years!

[Anothermi]

Small point, but Polliver was introduced as being a squire for Loras at the same time he was a spy for Littlefinger. P and L end up in bed together, and then P tells LF about the Tyrell plan to marry L to Sansa.

Thanks for the backstory update. I was sure I remembered something about him being a squire.

One more small point. Polliver was one of the men on Arya's "list". She killed him. I think it was the chicken dinner massacre. Olyvar, as Llywela spelled it, is the turncoat former lover of Loras.

[Llywela]

Ah. See, I had no memory of Olyvar/Oliver/whoever squiring. I just remember seeing him at the brothel, pretty much incessantly.

 

I now suspect that he was always one of Littlefinger's boys, given to Loras by Littlefinger as a squire because Littlefinger knew he was Loras's type and planted him there as a spy.

[stillshimpy]

I'm barely going to stir myself to suggest, maybe the writers thought they shouldn't repeat themselves.  What: repeat themselves, with Ramsay?  Risk that we recall a scene from four years past -- with Ramsay?   Pain us with the mere suggestion of redundant narrative, with regard to Ramsay?

 

I'll try to type this with a straight face:  Not if they had done it properly, it wouldn't have been a mere redo.  Let's face it, people who are to marry usually make the effort of trying to get to know one another if they have an opportunity.  Saying that showing Ramsay trying to win Sansa over would be a retread of a story they already did with Sansa is the same thing as saying betrothing her to everyone in the damned land is repetitive.  

 

Which...yes, yes it is, but it is also primarily what women of noble breeding were used to do in our world and in this fictionally created one.  Even Dany is planning to marry for political expediency.   So if they are going to depict Sansa as this "Everyone wants to marry this young woman for political reasons" chess piece over and over, then having the courtship process over and over is sort of expected and helpful in forming a narrative that isn't simply designed to outrage or sicken people.  

 

It would have been an opportunity to get to know Ramsay on a level that isn't quite so Villain from the NotFunny Papers or a slasher-flick on its fifth sequel.  It also would have given us a better opportunity to really gauge what all this has wrought in Sansa.

 

One last thing:  Guess what helps with the lost inner-monologue from the printed page?  Dialogue between people trying to get to know one another.  Oberyn's speech to Tyrion in his cell provided more illuminating material on those characters, as well as the political structure of the land than anything before or since.   

 

Having characters talk to each other is a helpful thing when telling stories on the screen.  Unfortunately Ramsay's dialogue is all Dark Willow "Bored Now! Time to Skin Something!"  That little shit cared a lot about being made legitimate.  It would have been interesting to watch him try and carve his personality to fit a part.  Now, again there are challenges taking something from the page to a screen, so even if that wasn't in the book, skilled story-tellers might have looked at this and figured out a way to make it an interesting progression.   

 

In complete fairness, part of it has been.  Someone upthread brought up the old saw for this series of "If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" and...heh, true that! Always with this story.  But taking that as a given within this fictional land, stories can be fascinating as well as grim and horrifying.  This story has hit the grim and horrifying with so little supporting material surrounding it, it missed fascinating and has become dull and under-structured.  Constant horror is not a structure that leads to much interest, because it's the material that draws in the emotional interest that makes the material horrifying or sad, or moving.   

 

Basically, it doesn't matter if it is happy or not, but it has to be emotionally compelling to succeed on any level.  The series is struggling with that this year, primarily in the Sansa story, but you know, I feel like I should really know a bit more about how the Tyrells are handling all this Cersei stuff.   Marg's establishing "Watch as I crow over my enemy" work early on was desperately thin too and didn't fit with her known characterization.  She's too astute to have done that and we didn't get any scenes establishing why the hell she'd lost her mind like that and goaded Cersei.  

 

There was the Sexposition, and the Sexposition was bad.  We all saw it.  We all know it.  I think even the actor playing LF was likely about ready to do shots beforehand because "Are you kidding me with tasking me to exposition this much in this way?  Hell's bells, we're doomed.  Time to drink!"  but it does not then follow that exposition sucks.  Poorly done exposition does though.  

 

Ever wonder how many times you can type the word exposition before it starts to lose any meaning?   Apparently I'm here to find out.  What a lumbering weirdo of a word that is.  

 

And then finally (for the moment) there's this aspect that Lywella accurately points out:  

 

 

 

I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever that he'd treat Sansa this way the moment he's married to her. The whole point of marrying him to a Stark is to give him and his family's rule legitimacy, and that's a freaking long game. For it to have any meaning, you have to actually play the game, which means acting the part of a committed husband and wife, living together like normal people - heck, even Cersei managed it with Robert all those years.

 

There freaking needs to be a reckoning of this within the story and soon, because for gods damned real, this is a HUGE problem with the story.  Sansa "key to the North, key to the North"  has never made a butt-ton of sense,  however they've been selling that snake oil for seasons.  It's their story, they need to stick to it and what Ramsay is doing ought to have consequences.  

 

Just like skinning "The North Remembers"  woman should.  You can't do that shit without repercussions in stories.   I mean, you can, it will just make the story sort of suck because when creating a fictional world a writer can pretty much make up any rules they want, but they need to follow their own structured elements.   

 

That's the biggest problem with Ramsay being such a twisted psycho to Sansa.  It ought to throw a giant wrench into the cogs of the machine they have built prior to this.  It ought to blow the hell up in his twisted face.  

 

But then, having a Lord who thinks flaying people is a good tool shouldn't stand for long.   Sure, there were people like Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler sprinkled throughout our own history, but if you look into any of those people, generally those were aspects of their personality and approaches to ruling.  They also were often exaggerated as a way of making sure enemies feared them.  Reports varied and so did their approaches to diplomacy.  The real monsters in history had multi-faceted personalities and approaches...or (and this is key)....they were overthrown.  Pure monsters can't rule anything for long.  

 

The reason Ramsay and Bolton suck as characters at present is that they would have been killed by the very people they are trying to rule.  We've seen Ramsay kill his own men.  That shit doesn't stand for long before the history ends with "killed by their own legion".  

Edited May 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Llywela]

Yes, quite, stillshimpy.

 

I kept wondering in this episode where Roose was. Because...it's been well established now that Ramsay has no long game and is incapable of thinking any further ahead than 'this sadistic twisted thing will give me pleasure in this moment', but Roose generally is capable of playing long games, keeping the worst of his predilections secreted away while at least acting the part society expects of him. I mean, he played Robb and Cat like fiddles right up to the moment the trap was sprung around them. He's acting the part of the good husband with Walda - another political alliance, but in this case one where both participants are playing the game. So I'd have expected Roose to keep Ramsay on a tighter leash with Sansa, if only for the sake of appearance. I meean, if her name and heritage was important enough to be worth marrying, that value doesn't disappear the moment the marriage takes place. It's a long term investment. Roose should understand that even if Ramsay doesn't. Imprisoning and brutalising her immediately only decreases the value of that investment. So what's Roose playing at, allowing it?

 

Or was it never really about her name, for the Boltons, and purely about further sticking it to the Starks?

 

I did like, though, that Sansa managed to get a dig in about Ramsay being a bastard about to be supplanted by his father's new, legitimate offspring. I mean, it made me fear for her, because goading Ramsay can't end well, but on the other hand she already knows he's going to do nothing but hurt her anyway, so I appreciate seeing that she's still got enough spirit to bite back at him the only way she can. And since the point about the legitimacy of this baby versus Ramsay's former bastard status has been made a few times now...we are clearly heading toward some plot development there, probably a bloody and horrible one. Because if Roose knows damn well that Ramsay can't be trusted to make even a pretence of civility and there's now a better option for the heir, and Ramsay knows this...

 

I also appreciated Sansa getting good news of Jon - 'cause lord knows it's been seasons now since any of the Stark children had any news of each other that wasn't death and disaster.

 

On another note entirely, while I kind of enjoyed Myrcella rejecting Jaime's rescue attempt and expressing opinions of her own, when she was complaining about only coming to Dorne because her mother wanted it and having made a life there, I did rather want for Jaime to remind her that he had just mentioned death threats, and that the political climate has changed enormously since her betrothal was struck. Kind of ironic, really, after the way Cersei took such pleasure in disabusing Sansa of her romantic notions, her own daughter has turned out just as naive.

[janjan]

Speaking of porn, what was the purpose of the Bronn+tits scene? Why first poison and then save him? Surely Ms. Snake doesn't really need the affirmation of a random prisoner. Unless I missed something (ever a distinct possibility), HBO has sunk to the level of unapologetic porn. And then there's Ramsay. C'mon Show -- you can be grim if you want, but it has to have a purpose, or, as the Supreme Court has said, some "redeeming social importance." I'm not seeing it.

 

I'm also not seeing how various characters know various things they have no apparent way of knowing. E.g., how did Ramsay know that the old woman was the one helping Sansa? We saw the entire conversation between Sansa and Theon, and she never mentioned how the bat signal was arranged. And how did innocent little Sansa, as she was at KL, know that Tommen is a bastard? And I still don't get now LF knew about Lancel and Cersei. Maybe it's just the necessary elision that occurs when adapting from book to screen. Oh well.

 

Here's hoping that the pace picks up a bit in the last 3 eps of this season -- more development, less gratuitous porn.

[gingerella]

Marg's establishing "Watch as I crow over my enemy" work early on was desperately thin too and didn't fit with her known characterization.  She's too astute to have done that and we didn't get any scenes establishing why the hell she'd lost her mind like that and goaded Cersei.

this, This, THIS! And again, sorry to sound like a broken record, but when you lay it out like that, I also question if Marg's behavior here was actually in a Story, or just something the Show cooked up to propel us somewhere else? We don't know right now, but - and history is behind me on this one I think - there is a neverending parade of "once great" TV shows that sunk to the level of a shit sandwich quagmire because they had showrunner's whose egos got the better of them...I'm looking directly at YOU JJ Abrams (you great show deserting piece of shite). Even the Sopranos and Mad Men, both shows I adored, sunk to rock bottom at times, seemingly at the whims of their creators. It's like Frankenstein creates his monster, people ooh and ahh so much that he gets a big fat bone for himself, and starts getting distracted by the fame and accolades and forgets that his monster needs constant attention and nurturing or else it runs amok and turns into a smoking hot disaster of a mess. And that's how I feel about this pile of steaming, festering excrement right now.

 

I'm also not seeing how various characters know various things they have no apparent way of knowing. E.g., how did Ramsay know that the old woman was the one helping Sansa? We saw the entire conversation between Sansa and Theon, and she never mentioned how the bat signal was arranged

Yessssss! Thank you Janjan, I was thinking the same thing.  Nowhere in their dialogue exchange did Sansa say who told her to put a candle in the damn tower, so unless Ramsey only allowed that one woman to interact with Sansa alone since she's been there, something happened off screen. And let's be real, writers who create a big "thing" and then attribute it's genesis to an "off screen" happening because they wrote into it poorly and couldn't pull it off without doing an off screen attribution are shitty, lazy writers. End of story, literally and figuratively. That is some low brow writing ploy that they use currently on the soap opera, Y&R, because it's writers are essentially feces-flinging monkeys sitting in a room pretending to writer a "story" but without the experience and/or talent to do so. In this show's case, we know they can write a good story, so why does it all of a sudden suck sweaty donkey balls pretty this season? The only thing I can think of is that the showrunners have decided to take liberties with the story to make it "better TV",  but it's not better, and not knowing the story, we're all pissed and disgusted with it. 

 

I think that one thing we can all agree on is that there is a long list of "once great" TV shows that fell from grace because the show runners got too egotistical about their greatness and left the wheel house to attend too many accolade parties (yeah, I'm looking directly at YOU, JJ Abrams, you show-deserting sack of shite), and they stop giving their show the attention they gave it at the beginning. That could also be happening here. If you give too many bravos and toasts to a showrunner, it's like complimenting Dr. Frankenstein on his creation. They get such an ego and swelled head, and start swanning about at parties and hobnobbing and such, and they forget that their creation needs constant attention and nurturing, otherwise it turns into a monster, right? Duh. Way to fuck it up showrunners, because either way, you've either departed from the story and fucked it up, or you've stuck to the story and you're now making poor choices in deciding which parts to show us vs. which parts to jettison for TV. Nodbody wants to watch meat rot in the sun, it's just not that fun, yanno?

Edited May 26, 2015 by gingerella

[90PercentGravity]

I didn't mind the scene with Bronn. I thought it was a good reversal of the scene from a couple of seasons ago where he was in the bar singing Rains of Castamer and the one in control of the situation. Even The Hound didn't intimidate him. But this woman was able to figure out his weakness pretty easily and take the power. As to why she poisoned him, her spear was coated with the poison. It wasn't specifically meant for him. She gave him the antidote because she liked him, I guess,

[Anothermi]

Any scene with Jerome Flynn singing in it is a worthwhile scene for me. I wanted to hear the whole song the 1st time he sang it and Jaime shushed him. He's got a good singing voice, so I'm happy they used it and didn't let him die. (Don't we have a thread of Songs from GoT? This one should be on it.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Anothermi

[DirewolfPup]

I really have nothing much to add to the discussion this week. I've been angrier and angrier with each passing episode. Not because of the story, but because of the pacing and plot holes. I forgot the show was on Sunday until I was reminded. That's not good coming from someone who has two pets and my car named after GOT characters. Step it the fuck up, show!

 

How did Ramsey know about the old lady? Well, she was the only person sent to care for her that wasn't a "Bolton" person. He probably made an accurate guess.

 

Sansa knew about Tommen? Of course. She was in KL for at least a year. She's not quite THAT dense that she couldn't piece together the rumors

[Llywela]

Any scene with Jerome Flynn singing in it is a worthwhile scene for me. I wanted to hear the whole song the 1st time he sung it and Jaime shushed him. He's got a good singing voice, so I'm happy they used it and didn't let him die. (Don't we have a thread of Songs from GoT? This one should be on it.)

Ahh. Somewhere I have a CD that Jerome Flynn and his old Soldier Soldier castmate Robson Green released together, way back when. Loads of cheesy covers, but I love it, always have! It's always good to hear him sing.

[ChocButterfly]

E.g., how did Ramsay know that the old woman was the one helping Sansa? We saw the entire conversation between Sansa and Theon, and she never mentioned how the bat signal was arranged.

I don't know how Ramsey knew about the Old woman. You could say she was an old servant, but I'm sure the place is still full of old Stark servants and sympathizers. So yeah, that doesn't make sense.

 

And how did innocent little Sansa, as she was at KL, know that Tommen is a bastard?

No, she knew this. Her father DIED because of this, so she has known this since season 1. Plus everyone and their grandmother have already heard the rumor about Cersei and Jaimie. Stannis made sure of that in season 1 or 2.

 

And I still don't get now LF knew about Lancel and Cersei. Maybe it's just the necessary elision that occurs when adapting from book to screen.

This one is also easy. When Cersei and Lancel were having their affair Littlefinger was still in King's Landing. He knew everything that was going on, he was like Varys collecting secrets. Plus, it's not like Cersei was that careful, Tyrion also knew of it and used that info to his advantage. It'd be actually surprising that someone like Littlefinger wouldn't have noticed.

[WhiteStumbler]

Remember back in Season One, when Shae, Bronn, and Tyrion were playing drinking games in a tent? Tyrion told about how Jaime arranged for him to have sex for the first time, and Shae called BS. Loudly.

Shae: A girl who was almost raped doesn't invite another man into her bed two hours later.

 

And then that is exactly what Gilly does. Though I guess technically her gratitude should be directed to Ghost, but I don't think even this show is going to go there.

 

I am beginning to tire of the retcons. Homosexuality was the sort of thing you kept private and were a bit embarrassed about until this season, when it needs to be a sin against the gods! Then how did Renley, a well known gay man, amass such a huge number of bannermen? And if being gay was forbidden in the Seven Pointed Star, maybe Joffrey would have mentioned that, instead of merely contemplating making Renley's "degeneracy" against the law?

The Unsullied are the Greatest, until the show needs them to not be, so that some street punks can take them down.

Same thing with Loras getting pwned by some fanatics in robes.

No mention of "greyscale" or "stone men" before, but now they are everywhere (well, near The Doom at least).

"The North Remembers", until it is convenient that they develop collective amnesia.

Characters act inconsistently with what we know about them, with no explanation as to why.

Grrrrrrrrrr...

Edited May 26, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Anothermi]

I hear you, WS. It used to be fun to figure out why someone acted the way they did because there were hints/clues as to who they were - or might be - as characters. Now? Not so much. 

 

The only thing I don't have a problem with, that many others do, is "The North Remembers".  I've never thought of it as a call to arms. It's more like "the North never forgives and forgets" as I see it.  As an example I give the fact that the North accepted the Targareyen rule because they knew they couldn't win against Dragons.  And they accepted the rule of Robert Baratheon because their own "king" - Eddard Stark - accepted him and helped put him on the throne. But when both Robert and Ned were gone, they weren't prepared to fight for anyone but their own King - Robb, King in the North. They never forgot that they've always been Northerners and done things in their own way.  I think that when a Northerner says "the North Remembers" it's like repeating a vow. Sometime, somehow we will get our revenge - no matter how long it takes. Generations if need be. 

 

So, hearing any of them say the words and do nothing doesn't upset me. They're not saying "OMG! I'm gonna DO something about this!" they're saying, "this, too, we shall avenge." (one day...when the time seems right...and we have a decent leader again...one day...)

[stillshimpy]

The only thing I don't have a problem with, that many others do, is "The North Remembers".  I've never thought of it as a call to arms.

 

Well, but the character who spoke them also gave Sansa the candle, to call for help. 

 

I agree, it's not a battle cry, but it's also pretty meaningless and useless if we're going to buy this Key to the North business and how Sansa can unite the bannerman through her union with Ramsay (I wish there was a sarcasm font).  

 

I'm sticking with the story guys.  Yes, I'm ticked the hell off and this needs to go somewhere swiftly.   Yes, there have been retcons aplenty, but that's also what happens when one book spawns sequels.  Things are expanded in a story.  Retcons are constant in fiction and are only a bad thing when they don't work.  

 

Which...yes, I grant you, Stumbler.  My "I wince whenever someone says this" is "Wardeness" that's been thrown around like crazy of late.  

 

Pretty fucking sure this story started out as a purely patriarchal society where women couldn't inherit jack.  However, if they can make it work....problem is, not working right now.  

 

And I hate Ramsay and that freaking flayed man flag flying over Winterfell, because I. freaking.remember too. 

 

The Ghosts of Winterfell ought to kill the hell out of those people.