Sarah's Sober Second Thought Series: 'We're Gonna Win'

[Primetimer]

The Buffy Rewatch comes to an end.

Read the story

[Sarah D. Bunting]

PS: I can't seem to upload the pic here, but I completed a pair of light purple bobble-stitch fingerless gloves in Bernat Softee Chunky, and got partway through a seed-stitch matching hat.

[JennB]

I commend you for tackling the last of the episodes all in a row, because I could never get through them after they first aired. They all run together for me.

I didn't get that emotional during the finale, but whenever I see the clip of the girl at bat smiling that "I got this" smile, I get goosebumps.

[EricJ]

After last week's post, I started thinking about what would have made a better, more practical and thematically resonant Big Bad for the series.

I came up with three ideas, two of which are kind of linked:

A Slayer who had been turned by a vamp hundreds or thousands of years ago, coming out of some other dimension or stasis.

The "full demon" form of the demon that was bound to the First Slayer.

The Watcher's Council.

The vamp-slayer would be a cool antagonist for a movie or miniseries, but I think ultimately the Big Bad should have been the Watcher's Council. Buffy's always had an antagonistic relationship with them, and by turning on all the Potentials I'd say she was battling them as much as The First, so you could have had the same result for better reasons, whether the fight was because of the Watcher's Council being corrupted or just Buffy realizing the ickiness at the heart of the Council/Slayer relationship and determining to end it.

[AndySmith]

I can't seem to upload the pic here

 

Tech support needs to get on that, stat.

 

how a victory is achieved with her speech about humans and our willingness to fight

 

These types of Wehdonisms always make me cringe. A variation that definitely had my eyes doing backflips was "you lack their conviction" claptrap from the Avengers movie. Believe hard enough! Have convictions! We fight for what we believe in! Care Bear stare! Yeah, Joss, whatever.

 

The Watcher's Council would've made a better final villain. Yeah, I can see that. Thematically, it could have been interesting, Buffy & co. break free from the corrupt not-so-competant Watcher's Council, overthrow them, and start their own council...well, that last bit did kind of happen, but it would have been much more interesting that way. Or at least, have the First Evil corrupt the WC further. Or something.

 

I didn't cry when the show ended. I think I was more relieved, thinking "Well, glad that's over. Could have been worse".

 

The TWOP summary of the show summed up this show the best: "It was the best of shows, it was the worst of shows".

Edited April 23, 2015 by AndySmith

[sinkwriter]

 

I didn't get that emotional during the finale, but whenever I see the clip of the girl at bat smiling that "I got this" smile, I get goosebumps.

 

One of my favorite moments, definitely gives me chills every time. We can definitely say a lot about this show -- as Sarah puts it so well, it was "very good, occasionally brilliant, usually lovable" and sometimes a total disaster, LOL -- but I do love that powerful end message and the visual of all those girls standing up for themselves and finding their inner strength, beauty and power. It's incredibly moving. 

[AndySmith]

For me, I never found it as compelling. Partly because Buffy and those girls get all of that from magical super powers.

She may have been the worst spy ever and spent season 3 of her show crying at the drop of a hat...but I always found Sydney Bristow to be a much more inspiring role model, as she got all her brains and physical ability from her training and her own natural abilities.

[sinkwriter]

 

For me, I never found it as compelling. Partly because Buffy and those girls get all of that from magical super powers.

 

It's been a long time since I've watched that final episode, but I don't remember taking it that way, that it came from "magical super powers." Instead, I saw it as the show saying "This power, this strength, is inherent in each and every one of you, if you only allow it to come forth, if you find a way to tap into it. You don't need to be magical or special in any way, you're special because you're you and you're powerful and beautiful and kick ass. GET OUT THERE AND OWN IT."

[AndySmith]

Yeah, but only a few chosen get it...I mean, I get what you're saying on a meta level, that this show should be empowering women and whatnot...but it just falls flat for me.

Edited April 23, 2015 by AndySmith

[Kel Varnsen]

Looking back i often wonder what exactly Buffy's final plan was. Was it just go down in the pit and fight and hope the axe thing gives everyone powers? Because until Spike's amulet saved them it looked like a pretty crappy plan.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"Yeah, but only a few chosen get it" -- I didn't care for that either. The whole montage felt like pandering, especially the abuse survivor staying her attacker's hand.

[Valny]

I commend you for tackling the last of the episodes all in a row, because I could never get through them after they first aired. They all run together for me.

 

the mid section is where they run all together for me. Seasons 1 - 6  just by the title I can tell you what it was about* but a lot of the season 7 eps, nope.    Never Leave Me, Showtime, Get it Done... who the hell knows. Blur.

*But actually I always get The I in Team and Goodbye Iowa mixed up and never remember exactly what they're about,only that they're Riley centric. Ugh.

 

Looking at the finale group scene screencap Sarah used, you want to know the thing I remember most about it that was?

It was-    I swear, if Kennedy is in this last scene I am going to lose my shit!!! Seriously, that's what had me on edge. *issues* 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Valny

[cheezwhiz346]

These types of Wehdonisms always make me cringe. A variation that definitely had my eyes doing backflips was "you lack their conviction" claptrap from the Avengers movie. Believe hard enough! Have convictions! We fight for what we believe in! Care Bear stare! Yeah, Joss, whatever.

Yeah, I definitely feel that too, whenever he puts stuff like that in his writing (which is often, but not quite as much as certain other writers) it feels so separate from the plots/characters themselves; it's like, "okay, everybody, pause; here's Joss's message." And it's not even a good, well-thought out message; it's overly simplistic and cheesy and often it feels like the plot/scene/whatever was twisted to get there. 

 

"Yeah, but only a few chosen get it" -- I didn't care for that either. The whole montage felt like pandering, especially the abuse survivor staying her attacker's hand.

YES. I still get chills, sometimes, with the little girl, despite myself, but it does feel like pandering. Oh, all we need to do is stand up, you say? Well golly, there we go then. No more violence against women/systemic issues/patriarchy here! I get that it's a metaphor and I like the message of sharing power but they could've done it better, I think. I like the treatment of the slayer spell in that one episode of Angel season 5 where the girl in the institution gets powers. I still don't like how it ends, but at least it's an acknowledgement that maybe things weren't quite as simple as they were presented in 'Chosen.'

[tv-is-addicting]

Always erroneously assumed from Quentin's arrival in S3 and again in S5 that the final [final] big bad is/was supposed to be the Watcher's Council. I think that was the direction the series was taking then retooled for UPN network execs or our favorite later shownoxonrunner scrapped it.

[sinkwriter]

 

Yeah, but only a few chosen get it...I mean, I get what you're saying on a meta level, that this show should be empowering women and whatnot...but it just falls flat for me.

 

I don't remember it being a "few chosen." I thought the point of the final sequence was that it was EVERYONE. Every girl out there has it. Every girl out there has the opportunity to activate that strength and beauty and love and power within them, for whatever purpose they need it.

 

I get what you're all saying about the pandering message, especially what damngoodcoffee said about "Oh, all we need to do is stand up, you say?" I totally get that, and agree that the message could have been better (and not somehow excusing some of the issues involved or putting it solely on women's shoulders to handle).

 

But as an overall message of all women and girls having something powerful and wonderful within them to trust in and believe in, that's what I got out of the final montage. That's what moved me about it.

 

Or maybe it's just me and what I needed to hear back then, in the moment.   :)

Edited April 24, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Silly Angel]

I did the rewatch but bagged it about a third into season 7. I just couldn't. Maybe it's time to watch the series finale and not feel the niggling neglect of the rest of S7 poking at me.

[sinkwriter]

I do love how Sarah says "just watch these two episodes of Season 7 and you're good." LOL. That's how I feel about the final seasons of some other shows as well. I could probably pick out a handful of episodes, tops, and leave the rest. By a certain point, the writing of shows seems to get really tired and disconnected and you just know it's time for it to end.

[Fukui San]

You guys! I just now figured out how the final big bad should have gone down! Brainstorm with me. We find out that the inner circle of the Watcher's Council were all vamped in the early 1900's. They have intentionally marginalized the slayer, sending her to only fight apocalyptic threats, as they like the world the way it is and want to maintain status quo. They KILL GILES when he finds out halfway through the season, making us hate him more than anything possible and giving Joss his mandatory big death. They try to squash Buffy and the gang, but they survive and go on the run. Buffy uses herself as bait as the Watcher's Council closes in. Willow opens the Hellmouth to suck the entire Watcher's Council inside, and then shuts it permanently somehow, because reasons.  And yadda yadda, power dispersed amongst double x-chromosome folk, full potential reached, female empowerment metaphor, Buffy smiles, the end.

[sinkwriter]

You lost me at "They kill Giles." No killing Giles! NO!  (LOL.)

[Jazzy24]

Gawd how I hated season 7 just everything about it especially thoes annoying potentials.

When they kicked Buffy out the house I wanted her to go to LA with Angel and wait it out till the First killed everybody in Sunnydale than her and Angel can fight The First together.

Dawn was one of the few awesome things that came out of this season.

Angel and Buffy again ~le sigh~ they should have ended up together Joss I'm still waiting on my movie.

I'm glad Anya died she got on my nerves

And Buffy, Dawn, Giles, Willow, Zander, and Faith making it was the best.

[AndySmith]

I don't remember it being a "few chosen." I thought the point of the final sequence was that it was EVERYONE. Every girl out there has it. Every girl out there has the opportunity to activate that strength and beauty and love and power within them, for whatever purpose they need it.

 

I thought the point of that final sequence was that it only activated the potential slayers worldwide. It wouldn't make sense for the Slayer axe to "activate" all women, it would just do it for all the women who are potential slayers.

[paramitch]

Buffy The Vampire Slayer is, taken as a whole, not a great show. It's very good, occasionally brilliant, usually lovable -- imperfect, maddening, comforting, like all friends are.

 

 

These were all such a walk down memory lane. And this description is so very "Buffy."

 

The vamp-slayer would be a cool antagonist for a movie or miniseries, but I think ultimately the Big Bad should have been the Watcher's Council. Buffy's always had an antagonistic relationship with them, and by turning on all the Potentials I'd say she was battling them as much as The First, so you could have had the same result for better reasons, whether the fight was because of the Watcher's Council being corrupted or just Buffy realizing the ickiness at the heart of the Council/Slayer relationship and determining to end it.

This is a really interesting idea, and it definitely felt like something the writers were contemplating at various points, especially in seasons 2, 3, and 4. I would have enjoyed it, but I also would have hoped it didn't devolve into the paternalistic, simplistic sexism of the early Watcher's Council stuff. It would have been cool to see Buffy actively battle people who were just as convinced as she was that they were right, and that the ends justified the means.

 

One of my favorite moments, definitely gives me chills every time. We can definitely say a lot about this show -- as Sarah puts it so well, it was "very good, occasionally brilliant, usually lovable" and sometimes a total disaster, LOL -- but I do love that powerful end message and the visual of all those girls standing up for themselves and finding their inner strength, beauty and power. It's incredibly moving. 

I love that moment if taken completely outside the show. But as a plot point, I hated it, and I felt like it was a simplistic and sloppy way to turn the subtext into text. I hated the "Potentials" and never ever felt like it was an idea that was properly explored or explained, and for superpowers to suddenly explode outward onto all these unsuspecting girls made me cranky. It was satisfying for 5 minutes, and to see the girls become powerful -- but where do we go from there? A whole population of superstrong slayers who don't know their own strength and proceed to get into all sorts of irrevocable trouble? I just didn't buy it.

 

Besides, I always liked the base premise of Buffy as, "One girl in all the world." I liked the destiny, isolation and loneliness of the Slayer's role, and the inherent paradox of it, and that to me was Girl Power enough. I don't need all girls to become Slayers.

 

For me, I never found it as compelling. Partly because Buffy and those girls get all of that from magical super powers.

She may have been the worst spy ever and spent season 3 of her show crying at the drop of a hat...but I always found Sydney Bristow to be a much more inspiring role model, as she got all her brains and physical ability from her training and her own natural abilities.

I'm definitely more on this side of the fence on that scene. I loved Buffy as a heroine (and always will) but would also agree that Sydney deserves a place right next to her.

 

"Yeah, but only a few chosen get it" -- I didn't care for that either. The whole montage felt like pandering, especially the abuse survivor staying her attacker's hand.

I just felt like it was another example of oversimplification (again, with shining that overbright spotlight on the subtext so that we all get it). In fact, in some ways, one of the few bright spots this season was Dawn's growing awareness that she was NOT magical, that she was not special, and not a Potential. But she was still willing to be brave and fight, and to do what she could, and her situation (and surprisingly for me, Anya's in the finale) moved me precisely because unmagical person fighting magical evil? That's courage.

 

YES. I still get chills, sometimes, with the little girl, despite myself, but it does feel like pandering. Oh, all we need to do is stand up, you say? Well golly, there we go then. No more violence against women/systemic issues/patriarchy here! I get that it's a metaphor and I like the message of sharing power but they could've done it better, I think. I like the treatment of the slayer spell in that one episode of Angel season 5 where the girl in the institution gets powers. I still don't like how it ends, but at least it's an acknowledgement that maybe things weren't quite as simple as they were presented in 'Chosen.'

I was very happy with that "Angel" episode as well, because it felt like the writer or writers really thought about the ramifications of where "Buffy" left things and went, "Really? Okay..." and then showed us what that would've been like. It's interesting that "Angel" frequently, for me, brought satisfying resolutions to complex characters -- for instance, I loved the show's further explorations of not just this, but of the Buffy/Angel relationship (nothing is more poignant to me between the two of them, ever, than of the final moments of "I Will Remember You"), as well as Faith's and Spike's character arcs. 

 

I thought the point of that final sequence was that it only activated the potential slayers worldwide. It wouldn't make sense for the Slayer axe to "activate" all women, it would just do it for all the women who are potential slayers.

Yeah, agreed -- it was the activation of all Potentials worldwide. I think I would have liked it better if it had been plainly shown to be a temporary surge, if that makes sense -- like, all these girls get this one moment to stand up, to be magical, for the moment it was needed in those final Hellmouth moments -- and then to have it ebb away (but leaving a lasting and implied sense of power and confidence). 

I'll always love this show, and these recaps were a great way to reexperience it -- but it definitely brought home to me that I won't be watching each and every episode again, and that future rewatches will include handpicked arc-spanners from seasons 1-5 (with maybe 3-4 eps from 6 and 7).

Edited April 24, 2015 by paramitch

[Kel Varnsen]

I thought the point of that final sequence was that it only activated the potential slayers worldwide. It wouldn't make sense for the Slayer axe to "activate" all women, it would just do it for all the women who are potential slayers.

Which in itself didn't really make sense, since if there was all of the sudden a crapload of potential slayers why did they spend all that time gathering up the 10-20 or so potentials they could find? I mean they could have potentially been in a situation where the slayers they had were killed, and the new slayer who gets called is someone halfway around the world that no one knows about.

[AndySmith]

Because, Season 7!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Andy isn't wrong, but "why did they spend all that time gathering up the 10-20 or so potentials they could find?" 1) The FE was killing all the potentials *it* could find, so the idea was to keep them out of harm's way (relatively) until they could be trained/called. Why you wouldn't do this in, say, Sheboygan instead of on the Hellmouth where they're more likely to get killed, I don't know, but I guess the idea is that the Scoobs can protect them. 2) Having various potentials under the roof on Ravello (sp?) Drive does increase the likelihood that the one who gets called will be close by. 

 

I don't disagree that, as plans go, this is barely a Post-It, but there is some sense there. And like every other problem with S7, it's not as dumb as the First.

 

Thanks for reading along with me all this time, you lot. I've really enjoyed your comments and wisecracks.

[AndySmith]

Alias rewatch next? I am curious to see how that show holds up.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

This summer will definitely contain a deep dive into IN SEARCH OF... (not really that deep, unless "Atlantis? Come on, Nimoy" passes for penetrating insight), but I welcome suggestions. And I have four seasons of ANGEL to Logline still.

[sinkwriter]

 

I thought the point of that final sequence was that it only activated the potential slayers worldwide. It wouldn't make sense for the Slayer axe to "activate" all women, it would just do it for all the women who are potential slayers.

 

Maybe it was just the way I interpreted it, back when I first saw the episode, or maybe it's the way I chose to remember it (and it has been years since I've watched season 7), but in my view the point was that it was all women. That there is no more "chosen ones" because we all have potential (to do and be anything). That's why I thought it was such a powerful and beautiful statement.

[AndySmith]

Well, I'm glad one of us got something positive out of that ending lol

[sinkwriter]

You know, I've been thinking about it. Since it's been so long since I watched the episode, I'm trying to remember if back when I first saw it I was disappointed with the message that it wasn't all women and I thought it should have been, and so decided in my head that I preferred my idea over what was actually presented, and decided to remember it that way.

 

LOL. That may have been what happened. Either way, I prefer my more positive vision of it, and that's what I think I'll stick to when thinking of the final episode. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by sinkwriter

[JennB]

This summer will definitely contain a deep dive into IN SEARCH OF... (not really that deep, unless "Atlantis? Come on, Nimoy" passes for penetrating insight), but I welcome suggestions.

 

Felicity? If only for the fashion?

 

If you have a thousand hours to kill and a strong stomach, you can always rewatch Beverly Hills, 90210, which I've been trying to blog my way through for a few years now. (I finally made it to the post-Brandon years!)

[spaceghostess]

I love that moment if taken completely outside the show. But as a plot point, I hated it, and I felt like it was a simplistic and sloppy way to turn the subtext into text. I hated the "Potentials" and never ever felt like it was an idea that was properly explored or explained, and for superpowers to suddenly explode outward onto all these unsuspecting girls made me cranky. It was satisfying for 5 minutes, and to see the girls become powerful -- but where do we go from there? A whole population of superstrong slayers who don't know their own strength and proceed to get into all sorts of irrevocable trouble? I just didn't buy it.

 

Besides, I always liked the base premise of Buffy as, "One girl in all the world." I liked the destiny, isolation and loneliness of the Slayer's role, and the inherent paradox of it, and that to me was Girl Power enough. I don't need all girls to become Slayers.

Yep, this about sums up exactly what grated my cheese about the finale and what led up to it. The FE defied sense and logic, but it's the Potentials sorority house I think of when I remember (if I must) the tragic time suck that was season 7. I never became attached to any of the Potentials or to their relationships with each other or the Scoobies. They just felt like a dilution of the core group, which made me really resent them.

 

When I come across BtVS reruns, If they're any other than a handful from Season 6 or any at all from Season 7, I'm outta there. Season 5 finale is my head canon ending.

 

[Edited to reduce unnecessary quotage]

Edited April 25, 2015 by spaceghostess

[spaceghostess]

PS: I can't seem to upload the pic here, but I completed a pair of light purple bobble-stitch fingerless gloves in Bernat Softee Chunky, and got partway through a seed-stitch matching hat.

Dang it, no pics! Sounds like a super-cute set, though.  I was powering through a spring jumper for my son's piano teacher's new baby girl while the Mets were on their winning streak, but I won't touch it at present for fear of what my frustration with the current stat of tonight's game will do to its pretty cables and ribs.

 

Damn Yankees.

 

[edited because silent "e" was also invisible]

Edited April 25, 2015 by spaceghostess

[spaceghostess]

This summer will definitely contain a deep dive into IN SEARCH OF... (not really that deep, unless "Atlantis? Come on, Nimoy" passes for penetrating insight), but I welcome suggestions. And I have four seasons of ANGEL to Logline still.

In Search Of . . . ? Hell, yes! I remember watching on the 19-inch JVC as a kid. So much love. The theme song is up there with Rockford, Barney Miller, and Sanford & Son in my personal pantheon of fave t.v. earworms of the 70s.

[paramitch]

I did like a few Potentials. I liked Sarah Hagan's Amanda (I had a soft spot for her on "Freaks and Geeks"), and especially adored Felicia Day as Vi, who became more and more watchable over the season, until in the end I was totally, like, "Joss, write a series about this girl." She was terrific.

I also enjoyed Faith with Robin, and thought they were a great match, although the road to get them there was more than a bit meandering.

 

I won't -- won't ever -- forgive the Scoobies for forgiving and accepting Andrew, however. He was an immature but brilliant and fully cognizant teenager who knew full well what he was doing -- and he colluded in death and violence. Tom Lenk's ability to deliver a line seemed to somehow (to the showrunners) to make everything the character had done forgivable. I don't agree. Being cute and amusing doesn't make, like, evil, okay. Andrew got off easy. (And it's even tougher for me given that I actually loved Jonathan and felt he was muscled into actions, plotwise, he wouldn't actually have committed.)

Sarah, I don't know which I'm more psyched for, your take on "IN SEARCH OF..." or "Angel."

 

I still remember the "IN SEARCH OF" music! I used to love sitting up at night as a teenager, waiting to hear Leonard Nimoy's unmistakable voice as he took us... in search of... (and to echo Spaceghostess, the theme was awesome).

Meanwhile, I was surprised by how much I loved "Angel" -- not just at the time, but even in retrospect. I think as a whole it's a gorgeous piece of work that addressed ideas and concepts that are still really startling and challenging today.

Unlike "Buffy," which was a bright gold that faded a bit over time, my appreciation of "Angel" actually grew over time. I loved the show and found its morality and universe far more complex than Buffy's, and I loved the idea of a damned protagonist who continued to fight the good fight simply because, "When nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do." Really excited to see you examine the series, warts and all.

 

The contrast is especially interesting -- Buffy, ending her Slayer days by stepping smiling into the sun -- and Angel, who would (with a few exceptions) never have that opportunity, and could only step smiling into the darkness and into the fray.

But if you do finish IN SEARCH OF and ANGEL, I fully admit that I would probably squee out loud over any ALIAS revisits... just sayin'. I'm not made of stone, here.

 

Meanwhile, thanks for revisiting Buffy in its entirety. I still don't like Kennedy. But I'm OK with that.

Edited April 25, 2015 by paramitch

[cheezwhiz346]

I won't -- won't ever -- forgive the Scoobies for forgiving and accepting Andrew, however. He was an immature but brilliant and fully cognizant teenager who knew full well what he was doing -- and he colluded in death and violence. Tom Lenk's ability to deliver a line seemed to somehow (to the showrunners) to make everything the character had done forgivable. I don't agree. Being cute and amusing doesn't make, like, evil, okay. Andrew got off easy. (And it's even tougher for me given that I actually loved Jonathan and felt he was muscled into actions, plotwise, he wouldn't actually have committed.)

Unlike "Buffy," which was a bright gold that faded a bit over time, my appreciation of "Angel" actually grew over time. I loved the show and found its morality and universe far more complex than Buffy's, and I loved the idea of a damned protagonist who continued to fight the good fight simply because, "When nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do." Really excited to see you examine the series, warts and all.

Yeah, BtVS was frustrating because it wasn't supposed to be quite so morally grey, like Angel was, and yet by the end of the series Buffy and the Scoobies had done some really egregious things. I mean, I understand as you grow up you see more of the shades of grey in things, but when you examine that kind of thing in a TV show you have to be careful, because you're messing with the show's entire mythology.

[sinkwriter]

 

I still don't like Kennedy. But I'm OK with that.

 

Me, too. Couldn't stand her, the end. (LOL.)