S05.E02: The House of Black and White

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:

Arya arrives in Braavos. Pod and Brienne run into trouble on the road. Cersei fears for her daughter's safety in Dorne as Ellaria Sand seeks revenge for Oberyn's death. Stannis tempts Jon. An adviser tempts Dany.

[Tara Ariano]

Nick's post on the episode:

The Dorne Ultimatum
Jaime's heading south to rescue his daughter, but he's going to need a hand. (NO JOKES, GUYS.)

[janjan]

Bronn is back! And the original Ja'qen!! And Drogon!!! Oh happy day!! <breaks into a Zorba dance> Too happy tp even think about what all happened. Did anything happen? I think the ep ended more or less where it started, but, oh, the bliss in getting there. Bronn! Ja'qen! Drogon!

[WhiteStumbler]

Varys: Are we really going to spend the entire road to Volantis talking about the futility of everything?
Tyrion: You're right... no point.

 

Amazing. Varys' eye-roll was great, but the preceding snark was epic. PLUS... we are going to Volantis!!

 

There were a lot of call-backs...

janjan: Bronn! Ja'qen! Drogon!

Yup. And Dorne! We saw Dorne, and Elaria, and the wheelchair guy is Oberyn's older brother? His guard seemed like a bad-ass. Oberyn said that his brother couldn't attend Joffrey's wedding because of gout, but would that have him in a wheelchair?

Edited April 20, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Pallas]

I think the ep ended more or less where it started, but, oh, the bliss in getting there. Bronn! Ja'qen! Drogon!

 

And Brienne didn't only-nearly-catch-sight-of Sansa, and she and Podrick did escape Littlefinger and his 50 Shades of Henchmen, and Podrick didn't get thrown by his horse onto his head instead of into a convenient pond, and Arya did return to her pigeon-hunting vagabondage (this time with a lot more finesse), and Jon Snow didn't have to throw in with Stannis or wait a few more seasons to become the Watch Commander, and Varys did deliver a pretty nice monologue when not seemingly slipping up and revealing a different destination for his journey with Tyrion, and Dany didn't dismiss Selmy for telling her a few home truths, and I actually did care about Dany's dilemma and the burden of rule: for the first time since the first season, I felt for her.  All that and Bronn and Ja'qen and Drogon.

 

A thrilling ep.

[90PercentGravity]

Bronn! Ja'qen! Drogon!

 

This!

 

Not just Ja'quen, Ja'quen with the good face!

 

I was so worried about Podrick. Now if Brienne would just listen to him. Screw Sansa. She's too dumb to live.

 

On one hand, I'm glad Jon Snow didn't bend a knee to Stannis. On the other hand, Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell sounds pretty awesome.

 

I noticed for the first time that the tick tock Winterfell in the credits is fling the flayed man banner. Not loving that.

[abcfsk]

Well when Littlefinger listed Brienne's achievements I did realize that "yeah, I'd probably decline as well". 

 

Also love that Bronn's sweeping romantic arc lasted for one scene. 

[Pallas]

PLUS... we are going to Volantis!!

 

Can you remind me what Volantis is, Stumbler?  I heard Varys say "(Somewhere)", and Tyrion demur, "Mereen," but didn't recognize the name.  

 

Also love that Bronn's sweeping romantic arc lasted for one scene.

 

I hate to say this, but I don't think Bronn was in it for the right reasons.

[Llywela]

Can you remind me what Volantis is, Stumbler?  I heard Varys say "(Somewhere)", and Tyrion demur, "Mereen," but didn't recognize the name.

Someone came from Volantis. Was it Shae? Or Robb's wife (heck, what was her name?)? Or both, perhaps?

[stillshimpy]

Yes, Winterfell is apparently Winterhell at present, which is only a very small step...laterally really...from the previous seasons' Winterpile.   

 

Okay, so here's what watching this show does to a person.  "So that guy with the really funky face has to be a faceless man, right?"  *street thugs flee at the sight of him, not realizing what a lucky escape they just made from the kid with the headless bird*  "Oh, yeah totally a facele....oh my god, hooray! It's Ja'quen! I'm so happy.  *pause*  So clearly something hideous is going to happen to him soon.  Fuck you, show."   

 

 

 

I actually did care about Dany's dilemma and the burden of rule: for the first time since the first season, I felt for her.  All that and Bronn and Ja'qen and Drogon.

 

I actually felt sorry for Dany too, even if it was visible from space that she was making a giant-ass mistake.  This is presumably what attracted Drogon to the proceedings.  It was like a signal in the sky, "Mom's screwing the pooch and how down there.  Better check in."  

 

I have absolutely no idea why Jaime would think that taking Bronn with him is a good idea.  He has no actual loyalty.  I mean, it's not as if he pretends to, so there's that much in his favor.  But for real, he's a sellsword who will actually sell that same sword mid-battle if the offer is lucrative enough.  What a splendid plan, Jaime.  Take him to the land where Elaria Sand has apparently lost her entire mind to the thirst for vengeance.   Nothing could go go wrong there.  

 

Speaking things a show does to you:   When I saw Oberyn in the previously segment, for a brief, shining moment I wished that it would turn out that the prince was his older-by-80-seconds brother and would have been okay if they'd soap-opera'd my ass that much.  After all, we have SORAS children as it is (seeing as Tommen was like...seven when we met him and still young enough or a spot of knee-sitting-before-near-infanticide) .   

 

But I was also okay with that not being the case.  See: what I fear will now become of Ja'Quen.  

 

Jeez, Elaria, way to be part of the problem, you know?  Carving up a completely innocent kid is exactly the sort of idiocy for the sake of violence that made Oberyn's head end up all Spongebobbed in a courtyard.  

 

ETA:  

I hate to say this, but I don't think Bronn was in it for the right reasons.

 

You dare impugn his honor, Pallas?!?  

 

Hmmm.  Yup, that's about right too.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I actually felt sorry for Dany too, even if it was visible from space that she was making a giant-ass mistake.  This is presumably what attracted Drogon to the proceedings.  It was like a signal in the sky, "Mom's screwing the pooch and how down there.  Better check in."

 

I think so too.  They are connected: Drogon's fly-by was the equivalent of one of the direwolves loping onto the scene when a Stark child is in peril.  And since Drogon has always been the alpha within the dragon family, he may be able to restore order.  He can stage a "Come to Jesus" moment with his siblings.  Even though they are two to his one and now better match him  in size -- numbers or size don't always carry the day within animal hierarchies.  Non-human animals respond to "it" just as humans do.   Some animals have animal magnetism.  

 

But for real, he's a sellsword who will actually sell that same sword mid-battle if the offer is lucrative enough.

 

Laughing...The one advantage to Jaime's having Bronn in the shotgun seat on the mission to Dorne is that Bronn knows exactly what Jaime can and can't do as an off-handed swordsman, and can work with that.  Then again you're right, shimpy, that Bronn might rather work with Dornish wine, Dornish women and Dornish largesse.  

 

Someone came from Volantis. Was it Shae? Or Robb's wife (heck, what was her name?)? Or both, perhaps?

 

Thank you, Llywela!  Robb's wife Talisa (looked up the name) for sure.  And Shae? 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Pallas

[stillshimpy]

Heh, oh by the way, back to things I just can't find riveting for a moment or two:  Jon Snuh was elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  

 

Huzz....zzzzzzzzzzttttzz *snore* 

[ChocButterfly]

Uhh, finally, an episode I actually liked!! Where to begin, with my favorite part:

 

Dorne!!: yay, we finally saw it, and it was all I was hoping for!! Beautiful! And the weather seems nice. That's the place to flee when Winter comes. Plus, I love the king (or is it Prince?) Doran. I think Cersei called him Prince Doran, that's what my subtitles said. He seems like a fairly decent guy....which means, of course, he won't last long. Was that a threat Elaria just made?

 

I can believe how egalitarian Dorne is, where his brother's bastard lover talks to the Prince like that. I don't recall her calling him "My Lord" even once. She mentioned some snakes wanting to avenge their father and the people behind them? What was that all about? Do the bastards run the show there? Myrcella is safe there as long as the Prince is alive. And the little Prince trying to woo her in the garden,  how cute! On a shallow note, I'd like to see people bathing in those pools, just to see what they use as bathing suits.

 

Jon Snow: I thought the election had happened and Ser Allistair had won already. I thought that's what they said last week. But I'm glad Jon won, and yay for Sam!! Wow, didn't see that coming! Guy is not afraid at all to speak his mind! As much as I liked Stannis' offer, I don't think it was realistic. The NW vow is for life, Jon cannot just resign like that, even if he gets the Stark name. Now, if Stannis were really the King, I guess he could make that happen, since kings bend the law however they like. But I don't see a future where Stannis finally ends up at the Iron Throne, so this whole thing would have just blow up in Jon's face sooner or later. Plus, isn't Stannis suposed to be "all about the law", now he doesn't care about ignoring it when it suits him?? Yeah, I'm liking Stannis less and less each episode.

 

Interesting the part with Gilly and Shireen. I love that kid! I didn't get the name for the thing that she had, my Spanish subtitles read: psoriagris? Like "grey psoriasis", hehe. But that didn't sound at all like she said. Interesting contrast between how Shireen was treated vs Gilly' s sisters. And I keep forgetting when she says "my father", she means Craster! Ugh!! Poor, poor Gilly. Also, the disease sounds like a lot of us had speculated back in the day: it seems to turn people into reptiles! With the whole scale thing, and sounding like animals.

 

Dany: Poor Dany, she was in a lose-lose situation. She was trying to do the right thing and give the Harpy a fair trail. But then, that guy disobeyed a direct order from her and basically committed murder! The right thing was to sentence him to death, BUT, as the Queen she should have read the situation better. All her people were begging for mercy and she knew the guy was just trying to help. I don't know, I guess she didn't want to appear weak, but you don't want to seem cruel either. She should have said he deserved death, but as a merciful Queen, she was going to spare his life and exile him.

 

 

This is presumably what attracted Drogon to the proceedings.  It was like a signal in the sky, "Mom's screwing the pooch and how down there.  Better check in."  

 

Oh, yes, I hadn't thought of that, excellent! But I wonder how Blacky is going to take it when he learns his mommy has imprisoned his siblings. 

On another note, Dany should start a major construction project. This would give employment to all those former slaves, give the people something to do and improve the economy. Maybe she can build a gigantic cage for her dragons, like a park or something? Where they can fly a bit without having to chain them in a dark a catacomb.

 

Arya:  finally! Although The Man was a bit of a jerk there, why make her wait like that? Was it some sort of test?

 

I didn't care much for the rest. Brienne should just just go home, like Pod told her. Plus, where is she planning to take Sansa anyway? I wouldn't have gone with her either if I were Sansa. Oh, who is LF marrying??? That part interests me, speculations?? Varys and Tyrion, meh, don't care. Just get to someplace or do something already!

[stillshimpy]

I think Ja'quen / A Man made Arya wait because of what she said, "Please, I have nowhere else to go."   

 

He answered, "You have everywhere else to go."  I'm assuming that meant, "choose this for the right reasons, because you want it, rather than as a method of last resort".  

[ChocButterfly]

Oh, that makes sense, shimpy.

 

I had forgotten, what's up with all that hissing from the former slaves? That was disturbing.

[DirewolfPup]

YAY! I've been talking about Dorne for seemingly forever. We finally saw it, and it looks like King's Landing. Whomp whaa. Eleria was rocking that black mourning shroud though. She also cut her hair. Mourning becomes her!

 

The northern folk seem like sticklers for rules. I have my doubts that they would follow Jon "Stark" even if he was given the honor. Jon may have had trouble getting the people to back him instead of Bran or Rickon. But he's Lord Commander now anyway. Part of me thinks Alistair is better at being LC than Jon will be. Alistair is a pain in the ass, but he's tough as nails.

 

Soooo the faceless man wanted to make sure she could kill a pigeon before he'd let her train? That seemed a little forced and out of nowhere. Maybe they cut something out when editing?

 

Varys and Tyrion are going to Volantis. I wonder if Jorah will be there (spitball officially lobbed).

 

Well, Cersei's attempt to be an intermediate, temporary Hand backfired royally. I wonder if it's because she's a woman, or because it's Cersei. Why wasn't Tommen there?

 

Brienne is going nutso. Her resume is pretty appalling. Sansa's question about being at Joffrey's wedding has an easy answer. She was a guest of Lady Margaery, who she considers a friend. Sansa still liked and respected Margaery as far as I could tell. Either way, our giant lady fighter has gone off the rails ladies and gentlemen!

 

Still no sign of the Bran Muffins or Boltons. I'm not exactly upset about this.

[gingerella]

Last night's thoughts posted in wrong thead:

 

My head is to full to post much tonight but I wanted to say two things:

 

1. A MAN!!!!!!!! I think I peed myself I got so excited!!! That said, methinks Arya's training will be far tougher than she could ever imagine, and I suspect she will, at times, regret using that coin because The House of Black and White scares teh bejeezus outta me already.

 

2. Lord Commander Jon Snow!!!! Commander of the Night's Watch, Heir-apparent to Winterfell one day maaaybe, and King of Wildling Oral Sex. Say what you will about Jon Snuh, the dude is firing on all cylinders right now!

 

Be back later to digest comments and post more. Oh yeah, and Dorne! Varys! Drogon! WooHoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

ETA: Nevermind, I'm back now!

 

So, yeah, Dorne...lovely and weirdly just like KL but without the nastiness, or so we were led to believe. But Elaria seems hell bent on fucking that up with her cutting little girls up into pieces bullshit. Bitch be crazy and that means she'll be around for a while and Nice Dude wont, unless Big Burly Guard Dude cuts a bitch when she really steps out of line. It was indeed weird how she spoke to the King though. And who were the "snakes" she mentioned? She was wearing that snake bangle and someone upthread mentioned her being a bastard so yeah, maybe they call bastards Snakes there, instead of giving them the surname of Snow like they do in other places?

 

I loved, Loved, LOVED the entire Varys exchange in the box coach. When he speaks, it's like satin threads of dialogue spinning out of his mouth, and fluttering around the room he is in at the time. His words just seem to float and hover as he delivers his thoughts to another, and I dont know that another actor could do that the same way. Just marvelous acting IMO!  I adore that character and the actor and hope to hell he doesn't get killed any time soon. It's funny, I used to feel that way about Tyrion, but so far, I would be okay with him just ending up dead at this point, as long as I could keep Varys around. Varys has to set into motion the next round of events I think. That's his raison d'etre at this point, save the realm at all costs, and hopefully not get killed in the process. But its his life's mission at this point, and has been for years now. This is sort of like putting into play, the last big push. It would be sad if in the end, the ruler he helps get on the Iron Throne ends up just as demented as the rest of them...though maybe his choice doesn't make it that far. That Iron Throne, much like Brienne, has not brought much good to anyone, time to melt that shit down and make a dragon collar out of it!

 

More later...

Edited April 20, 2015 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

Well, Cersei's attempt to be an intermediate, temporary Hand backfired royally. I wonder if it's because she's a woman, or because it's Cersei. Why wasn't Tommen there?

 

I actually think it is because she's Cersei, rather than solely being about her gender.   

 

I mean, her relationship with her brother is famed throughout the land.  She couldn't keep Joffrey in check, she apparently couldn't even keep her dwarf brother in check.   

 

I think it's that Cersei is Cersei, vs. Cersie being a woman.  That and Cersei just not being comparable to Tywin too.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

A couple of thing I just remember: the Colossos of Rodhe is in Bravos, heh! Also, I thought the term "Master of Whispers" was just a nickname they gave to Varys, you know, like the Spider. It turns out it's and actual official title, hahaha. That's hilarious.

 

I'm glad Selmy told Dany the truth about her father. I just wish he could have spoken in behalf of the Starks as well. They were the most grieved of the major houses by the Mad King, they had their daughter kidnapped and father and son burned alive. I'm surprised she's not more interested in hearing about the recent past of her family. Maybe that would help her when she returns to take the throne again. She could be forgiving to some innocent players (like the Starks), while knowing which houses to punish (the Lannisters). And I think Selmy should also be explaining the whole Lyanna kidnapping, if he knows. But of course, at this point I'm beginning to think she'll never get to Westeros.

 

Why doesn't  Cersei just get Tommen to the damn meetings? It'd placate Kevan and she knows he'll just do whatever she tells him, if she coaches him well. Maybe she's afraid she can't really control him? Though, she knows she cannot go openly against her uncle, he's a powerful Lannister. Actually, I believe one of his sons must be the Lannisters heir now, no?

 

However, we do have confirmation that women can inherit, first with Lolly' s sister and then with Mormont' s daughter. So maybe Cersei could be the heir now? I like it how Mormont's daughter sent Stannis to he'll, though she should get him on her side to defeat the f*cking Boltons together.

[90PercentGravity]

Btw, was that doctor Bashir as Oberon's bro?

[WhiteStumbler]

Speaking of Mormont's niece, I caught that she was named Lyanna Mormont, Lady of Bear Island.

 

Is Lyanna just a common name in The North, or is there more significance?

 

RE: Volantis -- Talisa Maegyr (Robb's wife) was from there, as was the smith who reforged Ned's sword into Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. I don't recall where Shae was from, but she got on a ship in Volantis (presumably before going to Dorne, on her way to KL).

[stillshimpy]

I think Cersei isn't taking Tommen to the Council meetings because she actually does want to rule in his stead.  She had told her father that maybe she was the child of his who had the most to contribute.  I think she's not having him attend because she truly believes she's far more fit to rule than he is (or anyone else for that matter).   

 

Plus, Cersei still has parental approval issues to work through and I doubt any of those were really Tommen's decrees.  

 

I'm glad Selmy told Dany the truth about her father. I just wish he could have spoken in behalf of the Starks as well. They were the most grieved of the major houses by the Mad King, they had their daughter kidnapped and father and son burned alive. I'm surprised she's not more interested in hearing about the recent past of her family.

 

I was very glad that Selmy managed to be honest, without being brutal.  Her father is still a man she never really knew though.  As for not wanting to know more, I'm assuming she does know all about her family and just has a tendency to discount the worst stuff as vicious lies.  Selmy was letting her know they were all lies.  But I remember Viserys being burned by the candle wax and telling the prostitute about his father showing him dragon skulls.  So Dany did grow up with Visery and presumably heard all about her family.  

 

I thought it was more that we needed to hear Dany being told "Nope, he really did suck" from someone she trust, while being shown that she needs an adviser.  Both as reasons for why she wouldn't have Tyrion skewered and to support why she'd want him as her Hand.  

[DirewolfPup]

I don't remember hearing about Mormont's niece. When was she discussed?

[WhiteStumbler]

DirewolfPup:

 

Stannis: Do you know this wretched girl?

Jon: Lyanna Mormont. Lord Commander's niece. Lady of Bear Island.
Stannis: And a child of ten. I asked her to commit her house to my court. That's her response.
Jon: (reading) "Bear Island knows no king but the King In The North, whose name is Stark."
Stannis: That amuses you.
Jon: I apologize, Your Grace. Northerners can be a bit like the Free Folk. Loyal to their own.
Stannis: I know. My brother, Robert, went on often and loudly about how difficult it was to control them. Even with your father's help.

[ChocButterfly]

Oh, I thought it was Mormont's daughter, I stand corrected. But yeah, I remember  he said she was 10! I wonder if she really wrote that letter. I guess if she's the heir of Bear Island, we can safely assume Mormont didn't have any surviving kids other than Jorah.

[janjan]

There were a lot of snakes in this ep. The sand snakes of Dorne, the snake they sent to Cersei, the hissing Meerenians, and the elaborate letter S in Gilly's reading primer. Do you suppose there's evil lurking in the garden of Westeros (and Essos)?

 

Tara Arianos: Jaime's heading south to rescue his daughter, but he's going to need a hand. (NO JOKES, GUYS.)

Cersei is now an acting Hand. Maybe he could hook up with her. Oh wait, . . .

 

Shimpy: Winterpile.  

 

... hooray! It's Ja'quen! I'm so happy.  *pause*  So clearly something hideous is going to happen to him soon.  Fuck you, show."

... Oberyn's head end up all Spongebobbed in a courtyard.

 

Well, at least the Boltons will rebuild Winterfell, right? That's something anyway. Then they can go get eaten by WWs or something. Ramsey first.

 

Ja'qen is the most badass assassin ever, Even our loving him won't doom him, right? RIGHT?!? [cowers in fear that Ja'qen is toast]

 

Oberyn's head got spongebobbed. Even though I will love the Red viper forever, I cracked up at that.

[DirewolfPup]

Thank you, Whitestumbler. I recall this now.

 

JanJan, good call on all the snake references! It's like a little easter egg.

[Shadowlass]

... maybe they call bastards Snakes there, instead of giving them the surname of Snow like they do in other places?

 

Last season they established that the last name of bastards from Dorne is Sand.

 

Btw, was that doctor Bashir as Oberon's bro?

 

Yep.

 

I find it really disturbing that Elia's main preference isn't to attack the Lannisters, but to torture their innocent child. Especially considering Oberyn was so grossed out by the very suggestion that anyone in Dorne would hurt a young girl.

[WhiteStumbler]

What is Qyburn going to do with that sad dwarf head? I liked that the bounty hunters who brought it in had appeared to have given it a slash across the face so that it appeared to match the one Tyrion got at the Battle of the Blackwater.

[stillshimpy]

What is Qyburn going to do with that sad dwarf head? I liked that the bounty hunters who brought it in had appeared to have given it a slash across the face so that it appeared to match the one Tyrion got at the Battle of the Blackwater.

 

You have to know Qyburn is totally building some reanimated dead thing, right? Like his own Army of the Dead to combat the White Walkers.  Fighting shambling corpses of magical origin with...shambling corpses of scientific origin.  It's the age old debate really, between science and sorcery revisited.   It's probably being debated in classrooms throughout the Kingdoms.  

 

Only the person that loses points in the debate is covered in pitch, set afire and thrown onto the pile of charred spare parts for nightmares.  

 

Seriously, I think he's likely dissecting it.   

 

Just on a hunch, don't let that man pet-sit for you.  Like...whoa. 

[janjan]

Shimpy: Only the person that loses points in the debate is covered in pitch, set afire and thrown onto the pile of charred spare parts for nightmares.

Shouldn't that be pigshit?

[stillshimpy]

Shouldn't that be pigshit?

 

But then we'd have to administer milk of the puppy, and that's always upsetting.  

 

Animal welfare groups in the seven kingdoms are truly beleaguered, what with the disturbing dietary implications of incendiary poo exiting the porcine citizens and whatever the hell they do to puppies to extract heroin from them. 

 

It's all very disturbing. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Shimpy: Animal welfare groups in the seven kingdoms are truly beleaguered,

I still haven't forgiven the Mountain for chopping the horse's head off.

 

BTW, Arya has a new list: Headsman Payne is gone, but the Mountain is on it. What did the Mountain do to her and hers?

 

A Man has some palatial digs. I wonder how he pays the rent.

[DirewolfPup]

When Eleria* mentioned the sand snakes, I assumed she meant the bastard children of Oberyn. Oberyn was known as the red viper after all.

 

A Man has some palatial digs. I wonder how he pays the rent.

A Man does not pay rent. A Man does not exist. A Man is poor in gold, but rich in knowledge. A Man is a welfare queen.

 

*I should really learn to spell her name

[Pallas]

BTW, Arya has a new list: Headsman Payne is gone, but the Mountain is on it. What did the Mountain do to her and hers?

 

Arya may be evolving from the pursuit of purely personal vengeance, toward a mission of social justice.  The Hound proved himself to her as a teller of unpalatable truths, and a King's Landing/Lannister insider: one who educated Arya in The Way Things Are.  He made it clear to Arya who and what his brother was, and the scope of his long service to the Lannisters.  Arya's new list begins with Cersei and includes no pawns: only the Queen's most compromised, unduly-enthusiastic and best-rewarded helpmeets.

 

Alternately -- Arya's new list begins with Cersei and includes those sworn to stand directly between Needle and the Queen. 

 

[90PercentGravity]

The Mountain was already on her list, because of Harenhall. When The Hound heard her name him he told her he would kill him himself if he showed up.

[ChocButterfly]

I think 90% is right, I remember the Mountain from Harrenhal. What I don't remember from before, and I think Arya mentioned last ep was Merryn Trant. Am I remembering that correctly? And why is Merryn on that list? If anything, I thought her list would be much larger by now.

 

On another note, Shireen learned to read at 3?? Wao, smart girl! When her mother said that she still didn't understand what people are capable of doing, I thought she was going to say something like: "Oh, I do know, your Holy woman had your brother burned alive in front of you!". But yeah, Shireen is smarter than me to keep her mouth shut.

[WhiteStumbler]

Was that Mountainstein under the sheet to the R of the scene in Quyburn's lah-bor-hatory? Maybe that is why A Show has him still alive, so that Arya can kill him.

 

I'm struck by the parallels I saw between the Robb / Karstark scenario, and the situation Dany has herself in. Both start when trusted member of The Dear Leader's team killed someone(s) in the name of "justice", the killing puts the leader in a position where any decision they make is a bad decision that will infuriate significant portions of their followers, the choices the leaders have are primarily binary (justice/mercy, strength/weakness, the demands of expediency v. the long view), both result in a beheading, and both have significantly undermined the leader. The Hissing Slaves (my new band name!) were creepy.

 

In the scene where Dany was trying to decide what to do, I got the sense that she was feeling a little panicked at the divergent POVs w/i her council and seemed to be subconsciously casting about for Jorah's perspective. In another Robb parallel, maybe Robb refusing his mother's council before beheading Karstark is mirrored by Dany banishing Jorah before this crisis of ruling?

 

Finally, this... Sam: "Did you know that the youngest Lord Commander in history, Osric Stark, was elected at the age of 10?"

 

ETA: Merryn Trant is on The List because (Arya believes) he killed Syrio and he was on the "stage" when Ned was executed.

Edited April 21, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

In the scene where Dany was trying to decide what to do, I got the sense that she was feeling a little panicked at the divergent POVs w/i her council and seemed to be subconsciously casting about for Jorah's perspective

I really like this thought. It would be great if Dany would see the importance Jorah played in her life - both personally and professionally, and allow him back into the fold. I miss him a lot. Nobody said "Khaleesi" like he did, and he was the only one who still called her that...I liked that he was the only link - at least that we overtly saw - from her Drogo/Khaleesi days, and with Jorah gone for now, that part of her life is only represented by her dragons.

 

Speaking of which, I could not figure out what was up with Drogo the other night. He looked as if he might eat Dany, or try to bite her or something - it was a weird dynamic. Also, a big fat WTF to a giant dragon flying hither and yon without the entire Westeros and beyond sounding the alarms that, yanno, a friggin' dragon is on the loose. It doesn't make any sense. People have got to have seen Drogo flying around screeching and burning shit, so like, why isn't anyone saying, "hey man, that lady over in Mireen has DRAGONS, so don't fuck with her!" Seriously...something is whack with that storyline.

 

No offense to your new dragon, Janjan...which BTW, does your dragon have a name yet?

[ChocButterfly]

They all know it's Dany's Dragon. They must be used by now seeing them flying around. They get scared, but they're used to it. And the reason why they haven't revolted is not because of the Unsullied, but because of the dragons. Dany's lover basically told her so last week. Now, most people have also probably heard the rumor that Blacky has gone rogue and that she cannot longer control her "children". Coupled with this last episode and I think we're very close to a national revolt.

 

E.T.A.: Thanks KFH, I couldn't understand why he was on her list.

Edited April 21, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[DirewolfPup]

Drogo flying around screeching and burning shit

 

My mind went in the completely opposite direction when I read that.  Pigshit is now dragonshit. <shudder>

[janjan]

No offense to your new dragon, Janjan...which BTW, does your dragon have a name yet?

My dragon is still in the cute baby stage, like when Drogon blew a smoke ring before BBQ'ing Piat Pree. I also liked when one of them caught a fish and flipped it up in the air, cooked it, and caught it on the way down. But <no-name-yet> will grow into a major badass like Drogon and I will be feared in my neighborhood.

 

Drogon didn't seem to be threatening Dany -- he looked almost cuddly, but he wouldn't let her pet him. Mixed signals confused A Viewer.

 

What did the Mountain do at Harrenhall? Dany was pretty pissed at rat-bucket guy, and then at the guy who caught her with Tywin's ravengram. I don't recall that he threatened Arya, but maybe I repressed it.

 

<spit incoming> Mountainstein will face off against either Drogon or a WW. I have my popcorn ready.for that scene.

 

How is Jon gonna get out from under that pesky oath now that he's Lord Commander? I might have to scrape my earlier spitball (Jon -> Iron Throne) off the wall. <scrubs vigorously>

 

Ellaria doesn't look like she has had eight children, but Oberyn said he had eight daughters. Does he have a wife also? If the sand snakes are his children, they not really old enough to be much of a threat. His older brother's son is still a teenager. But Ellaria said they were gunning for Lannisters. I"m really worried about Myrcella (sp?), but not in the near future. The witch said all Cersei's children would have golden crowns and golden shrouds. So she's gonna marry the prince, the king will die somehow, and than, at long last, Ellaria or the snakes will bite her. Bummer.

 

ETA:

Hmmm. Dragonshit is a good name.

Edited April 21, 2015 by janjan

[Llywela]

Ellaria doesn't look like she has had eight children, but Oberyn said he had eight daughters. Does he have a wife also? If the sand snakes are his children, they not really old enough to be much of a threat. His older brother's son is still a teenager. But Ellaria said they were gunning for Lannisters. I"m really worried about Myrcella (sp?), but not in the near future. The witch said all Cersei's children would have golden crowns and golden shrouds. So she's gonna marry the prince, the king will die somehow, and than, at long last, Ellaria or the snakes will bite her. Bummer.

How long had Ellaria been with Oberyn, were we told? They weren't married, and had a pretty open relationship. I would pay cash money that he's fathered a whole bunch of kids by different women over a period of many years - much like Robert Baratheon, in fact, except that Oberyn gave the impression of having an actual relationship with his bastard children and being fond of them, rather than keeping them secret. He was old enough that he could have adult children - and we know from Joffrey and Arya that even teenagers shouldn't be underestimated on this show!

[gingerella]

The witch said all Cersei's children would have golden crowns and golden shrouds. So she's gonna marry the prince, the king will die somehow, and than, at long last, Ellaria or the snakes will bite her. Bummer.

Uch, Janjan, I'm now sensing that Ellaria is headed for Cersei 5.0, which is no bueno.

[Pallas]

I didn't get the name for the thing that she had, my Spanish subtitles read: psoriagris? Like "grey psoriasis", hehe.

 

Pretty much!  "Gray scale."  Or, since this is Westeros, perhaps "Grae scael."  

 

All her people were begging for mercy and she knew the guy was just trying to help. I don't know, I guess she didn't want to appear weak, but you don't want to seem cruel either.

 

Part of me thinks Alistair is better at being LC than Jon will be. Alistair is a pain in the ass, but he's tough as nails.

 

I don't know.  A Show seems to be juxtaposing at least two ways to lead.  Stannis admonishes Jon that rulers must not show mercy, that people only follow leaders who they fear.  Alliser Thorne asks directly if the Watch wants to follow a man who fights the Wildlings, or a man who loves them.  Dany first speaks of "sending a message" (yikes: that term grated, from the lips of a flameproof Dragon Queen within a Harpy Temple, rather than a workshop leader wearing a headset) by killing the Son of the Harpy -- before she heeds Selmy's advice about justice, then gets driven straight into the dilemma of whether to temper justice with mercy.  Meanwhile, last week Varys hypothesized about an ideal ruler who is both strong and compassionate.  Brienne spoke of wanting nothing more than to serve an honorable leader.  So we're back to Tywin's Treatise on Monarchs Good and Bad, pointedly delivered to one young king directly over the body of another.  Back to it, unless we never left...

 

However, we do have confirmation that women can inherit, first with Lolly' s sister and then with Mormont' s daughter. So maybe Cersei could be the heir now?

 

Great point.  Even if each noble family has its own rules about female succession, when it comes to House Lannister, all Cersei may have to do now is to have Tommen make it so.  

 

In the scene where Dany was trying to decide what to do, I got the sense that she was feeling a little panicked at the divergent POVs w/i her council and seemed to be subconsciously casting about for Jorah's perspective. In another Robb parallel, maybe Robb refusing his mother's council before beheading Karstark is mirrored by Dany banishing Jorah before this crisis of ruling?

 

I love this analysis, Stumbler, and the point you made above it about how Dany's dilemma in choosing the right sentence for the former slave mirrored Robb's with the Karstarks.  With gingerella, I felt the same sense of Dany's seeking one more voice, one who she trusted to put both her public persona and her private well-being above any principle (for better and for worse). Until now, Dany has never lived without a family member at her side: Viserys, who may have been a shit brother but was nonetheless kin, and his unwilling replacement in that role: Jorah. After exiling Jorah, she herself imprisoned her remaining dragon children.  At the end of the day, all she had to say to her inner circle was, "Leave me."  

 

Speaking of which, I could not figure out what was up with Drogo the other night. He looked as if he might eat Dany, or try to bite her or something - it was a weird dynamic.

 

Drogon didn't seem to be threatening Dany -- he looked almost cuddly, but he wouldn't let her pet him. Mixed signals confused A Viewer.

 

Drogon was roosting on the roof of the Temple -- the palace Dany claimed for herself well after Drogon went missing -- and cooed at Dany as she stepped out onto the balcony.  He then preened for her before approaching her carefully on his sensational, non-vestigial dragon-legs, and extending his head.  It looks to me as if he allowed her a faint touch before taking off.  

 

I want to believe that his departure might have been purposeful, that he was going somewhere he wished her to see.  But his calling as he flew away was probably just the cursory acknowledgement of a teenager who throws over his shoulder, "Out."

[madam magpie]

90 percent of the time when I watch this show, I have no idea what's going on. Thank the gods for this forum.

I was REALLY disappointed in Dany in this episode. I thought her much smarter than that. Jorah is missed.

What is this house of black and white? Who is that guy who had a different face, what is he training Arya to do, and why again??

[ChocButterfly]

BTW, I was thinking, A Man cannot be the only person living in that place, there should be other face-changing assassins, plus masters and students, no? How is it that coincidentally it was Jaqen who answered the door? Last time we saw him he was in Westeros. Or maybe someone else answered the door and told Jaqen, so he assumed the same face of whom had answered the door to follow Arya? So they can interchange faces (and bodies!). Or do they also have developed telepathy between each other? Damn, these people are even more powerful than the blue lips guys from Qarth!!

[janjan]

What is this house of black and white? Who is that guy who had a different face, what is he training Arya to do, and why again??

Hello, Madam Magpie, and welcome to the Habitat of the Unsullied. We are not sullied by knowledge, so you really shouldn't believe anything we say. We mean well, but we don't know nuthin'.

 

We do observe, however, and obsess out the wazoo. The guy who is no one, with no face, or rather many faces, is the ultimate assassin. He serves the Red God, talks funny, and metes out justice of the arithmetic sort -- 3 lives saved, 3 lives must be taken. An eye for an eye sort of thing. Maybe. He once went by the name Ja'qen Hagar (sp?), and helped Arya escape from the Lannister clutches at Harrenhall, after assassinating several bad guys for her (because she had once saved his life and two others). He offered to teach her the way of the faceless man, the one who is no one, which must be handy if it ever comes to trial. At the time she was still seeking her family, but when her family was killed -- almost in front of her -- and her attempt to find Jon Snow was foiled by lack of transportation, she decided to take him up on his offer. The house of black and while is his house, apparently, because he couldn't possibly pay the rent on it.

Edited April 22, 2015 by janjan

[Jan Snow]

Finally! A safe haven to dissect this show! Got into it a couple of months ago and have rewatched each season more than I'd like to admit. 

 

The guy who is no one, with no face, or rather many faces, is the ultimate assassin. He serves the Red God, talks funny, and metes out justice of the arithmetic sort -- 3 lives saved, 3 lives must be taken. An eye for an eye sort of thing. Maybe. He once went by the name Ja'qen Hagar (sp?), and helped Arya escape from the Lannister clutches at Harrenhall....

 

Do we know that he is the same "entity" though? It might just be another faceless man using the Jaquen face.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Jan Snow

[WhiteStumbler]

Jan Snow: It might just be another faceless man using the Jaquen face.

Welcome! As long as A Man is played by the same actor, A Viewer will be perfectly content.