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S01.E12: Paradox

ElectricBoogaloo

By ElectricBoogaloo
in 12 Monkeys [V]

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SpectreH

SpectreH

They did show in this episode that when the two Coles got close they both seemed to have headaches.

 

Does this then confirm that Cole really is the frozen corpse and the origin of the virus?  Since he seemed to have a similar headache reaction when he got close to the corpse in The Night Room.  I was looking to see if he got close enough in 1987 to have a similar reaction but I didn't see one if it happened.

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bluebonnet

bluebonnet

Does this then confirm that Cole really is the frozen corpse and the origin of the virus?  Since he seemed to have a similar headache reaction when he got close to the corpse in The Night Room.  I was looking to see if he got close enough in 1987 to have a similar reaction but I didn't see one if it happened.

I don't remember if it happened in 1987, but I think the first time next to the frozen corpse it turned out that another Cole was nearby since he came back to save Cassie.  

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solea

solea

Seconded. She was so awkward in the Center Stage role

 

Shriekingeel, Gina was referring to Aaron Stanford, not Amanda Schull.

 

The last couple of episodes really, REALLY didn’t do it for me and I was worried that the show had gone off the rails so soon.  But this episode righted the ship.  (How’s that for mixing metaphors?) 

 

Lots of food for thought.  We still have the larger plot of stopping plague vs. letting plague happen, but it’s rooted in character and relationships and human failings which I love.  For me the macro has no resonance without the micro.

Cthulhudrew

Cthulhudrew

That was a great episode. From the quick flashbacks we'd been seeing all season long (the glass of milk shattering, etc.) I was getting the impression that there was going to be some child abuse in Cole's past, and when we saw his father initially and the lie and paranoia, I was convinced that would turn out to be the case. 

 

But nope, what we got instead was a really touching story about parents and their children, and some wonderful acting by Amanda Schull, Aaron Stanford, and, most notably, Patrick Garrow as Matthew Cole. I don't recall seeing his work anywhere else, but I'm not ashamed to admit I teared up at several of his scenes. What a wonderful standout performance for essentially a one-off appearance in a show. I'm disappointed that he's gone already.

 

And Jones' secret. I'm not entirely certain that Jones actually knew Cole all along (as was strongly implied) or if this was part of a paradox that was being created by her sending him back to 2015, but I definitely want to rewatch all of the previous episodes and see if or how there is any subtext that I missed, or if this new revelation changes the context of Jones and Cole's scenes together.

 

12 monkeys does stumble a little bit here and there, but it is overall one of the best shows I've seen in a long time, and I think the cast and crew continue to do a stellar job.


I've been taking it for granted that Cole's mom is Olivia.  Has that not been established? 

I thought it was a possibility at one point, but now I'm not so sure. Matthew Cole mentioned that Cole's mother Marion brought him to Matthew because she couldn't protect him, and that she was somehow involved with the Army of the 12 Monkeys. I suppose it's possible that she took him there in order to preserve the timeline, but that wasn't the sense I got from when Cole and his dad were talking. I think perhaps we haven't met her yet.

solea

solea

Something else I just remembered.  Last we saw Cole was stabbed and bleeding on Cassie's floor.  This episode we see him alive and then later walking around.  If he's dying from the effects of time travel he wouldn't still have that super, Jones-induced healing power, would he?  It's like the writers completely forgot about Ramse getting all stabby on Cole.

Maverick

Maverick

(edited)

 All they said was he wouldn't be able to travel through time anymore.  He may still have other residual effects from the treatments.  Even if he doesn't, he was in 2015 for a few days before the paradox and still had the altered physiology. 

 

 As to Cole time traveling, I don't think it's stopped.  Aside from the fact it seems like he's the source of the virus in the past, clearly the events of this episode had happened for 2017 Cassie since she gave Cole the address for Jones.  But there she mentions she and Cole see each others 'many more times' between 2015 and 2017 which would indicate he was still bouncing in and out of her life.  I guess they could part ways and fight the 12 Monkeys separately but that doesn't seem to be their plan.  Also, where was Cole in 2017 if he's been stuck in the past since 2015? 

Edited by Maverick
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Netfoot

Netfoot

Netfoot, why do you think Olivia is Cole's mother?

 

Well, who might his mother be?  Cassie?  Two weird.  Jones?  She only just met Matthew.  She could now jump back several years and begat Cole, but wouldn't Matthew have recognized her in this 2015 timeline?  It doesn't seem like he did.  Jennifer?  Possible, but it doesn't ring true.  Hasn't she been in the loony-bin for the past while?  And who else is there?  The Striking Woman, a.k.a Olivia. 

 

Yes, Cole's mom could be a single-episode "irrelevant" like his dad.  If not, there aren't that many females in this show to pick from.  Would they wait until the finale to introduce a new, on-going character to fill the bill as Cole's mom?  They might, with her storyline playing out in season two.  Anything is possible, and I have no special insight.

 

But if Cole's mom is someone we've already met, my money is on Olivia.  I've been going forward on this basis for weeks.

MizArk

MizArk

I'm going on the assumption we haven't met Cole's mother, Marian,yet. None of the women we've met seem to fit. I suppose it could be Olivia, but that doesn't feel right given the story thus far. Matthew said Cole's mother was frightened and unable to protect Cole from the 12 Monkeys. Can't wait to find out how she crossed their path!

 

I wish I could watch with total faith in the writers, but I've been burned so much that I keep worrying they don't know yet, either. Crossing my fingers that they know exactly where they're going with this! So far they've done a good job, I think, of staying true to the original storyline, so I hope that bodes well for season 2 and the gray people we've met now. The only episodes I haven't really liked are the ones that wander too far away from Cole/Cassie, who I see as the heart of the story. I never saw the movie so don't know how faithfully the series is modeled after it and I've decided not to read spoilers and just try to keep enjoying this journey!

  • Love 2
OakGoblinFly

OakGoblinFly

Yes, that was Deacon. If you mean Max, the woman Cole was with when he and Ramse were a part of the West VII, she was killed by Ramse before he splintered to 1987.

 

I also like that Cole and Ramse are apparently stuck in 2015. I'm fine with this being permanent or the writers finding some way to "fix" it. If it's permanent, I hope we still get scenes in 2043 with Jones, I'd hate to lose her.

 

 

They'll still have to explain why Ramse is only in his mid-30s instead of his 60s though.

 

Also, if young Cole doesn't meet young Ramse, would grown-up Ramse still go back in time to lead the 12 Monkeys?

 

I did like the call back to the movie - specifically that the memories that older Cole had that he couldn't explain turning out to be the memories of younger Cole meeting with older Cole (very reminiscent of the scene where young Bruce Willis sees the death of older Bruce Willis' death).

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Evie

Evie

(edited)

They'll still have to explain why Ramse is only in his mid-30s instead of his 60s though.

Jones' dad was talking about the impact her research could have on medicine since it would prevent the effect of time on human cells. I assume that is why Ramse hasn't aged.

It's like the writers completely forgot about Ramse getting all stabby on Cole.

Aaron did mention that Cassie had stitched him up before taking off. I don't remember where he was stabbed, but I guess we are to assume the wound wasn't that bad.

Also, where was Cole in 2017 if he's been stuck in the past since 2015?

Cassie asked if he had found the Red Forrest, so I'm guessing maybe that's where Cole was in 2017. Edited by Evie
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bluebonnet

bluebonnet

Something else I just remembered.  Last we saw Cole was stabbed and bleeding on Cassie's floor.  This episode we see him alive and then later walking around.  If he's dying from the effects of time travel he wouldn't still have that super, Jones-induced healing power, would he?  It's like the writers completely forgot about Ramse getting all stabby on Cole.

Ramse stabbed him, Cassie stitched him up.  They probably didn't show it since it would be wasted screen time.  We already know Cassie has the skills to take care of even major gunshot wounds.  

kat165

kat165

I don't think we've met Cole's mom yet. I don't know if she'll be one off like the dad, maybe we will never even meet her, but since 12 Monkeys was mentioned in connection with her we probably will. Netfoot, I look forward to seeing if this pans out with Olivia as the mom, but I'm having a hard time seeing that. Maybe as you mention, next season. I don't think she's a good fit, as Gina points out.*

(*Netfoot, this is not a criticism of your theory, just a point of friendly discussion.)

 

Re: Ramses not aging. If it has to do with Jones' serum, he's had one dose, whereas as Cole has had several so therefore he should remain younger looking longer?? Heal faster?

ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

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(edited)

I am not sure why Ramse hasn't aged (maybe he discovered the world of informercials and has been using Pearl Cream?) but perhaps it's a combination of receiving a dose of the serum and only splintering once so that he got the best of both worlds: the positive healing aspects of the serum and minimal damage to his body because he only time jumped once. Of course, it's also possible that Olivia has bottled the fountain of youth from that pool where they did the necklace ceremony. You never know with sci fi shows, right?

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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oliverwendell

oliverwendell

(edited)

I just spent this weekend binge-watching this show.  I'm hooked.  I'm counting the days until Friday's season finale, and feeling relieved that the show has been renewed.  My thoughts/predictions:

 

(1)  Cole is Annapurna Man -- the Himalayan corpse that starts it all.  Which makes me incredibly sad, because it means his mission is destined to fail and, even worse, that he will end up causing the plague he was trying to prevent.  (But I'm watching anyway!!  Because I'm a glutton for misery!!)

 

(2)  Cassie dies in every timeline.  And it will break Cole's heart every time.  (And yet I'm still watching!!!  Because, again, glutton for misery!!)

 

(3)  The only "happy" ending will belong to Ramse and his son in the plague-ridden future of 2043.  But there will be some sort of hope implied there:  that the human race can recover some of what it has lost through the new generations to come.  (And, maybe, that is the real reason I'm still watching.)

Edited by fourteenwords
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Netfoot

Netfoot

(*Netfoot, this is not a criticism of your theory, just a point of friendly discussion.)

 

Hopefully I'm not so thin-skinned i can't take fair criticism!

 

I see the following possibilities with regards Cole's mom:

 

  1.   We never meet her.
  2.  She makes a brief appearance for one or two episodes, like Cole's dad.
  3.  She is introduced as a new regular character for next season, possibly appearing at the end of this season's finale.
  4.  We've met her already but don't realize it yet, similar to how Ramse was the Witness and we didn't know.

 

Now, it could easily be #1, #2 or #3.  But if it's #4 then there are only four leading female players it could be.   Cole's dad met both Cassie and Jones and didn't appear to recognize them, so that probably rules them out.  Jennifer has been under close scrutiny for years due to being two cans short of a six pack, so Leland would have probably have known if she had produced his grandson.  That only leaves Olivia, the Striking Woman, who we know very little about.  So, in the event of #4, my bet is on Olivia.

 

And if Olivia isn't Cole's mom, then who the f*ck is she??!?

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MizArk

MizArk

Fair question! And the reason we keep watching! ha

 

Seriously, I find Olivia fascinating (not to mention she's so striking and I love her voice) so I want to know what part she plays in all this. She's obviously intricately connected to the main players. If she's Cole's mom, I'll be the first to admit I guessed wrong, Netfoot. I have a feeling I'll binge watch the whole season this weekend after Friday's finale to look for clues I missed before.

Chuck Sellick

Chuck Sellick

Hi, I just signed up to post my two crazy theories. Hear me out ;)

 

1) Deacon becomes ... Pallid Man. Firstly I felt his line at the very end of Paradox was delivered exactly how Pallid Man speaks, very soft but extremely menacing. And we know the Army have a crazy amount of foreknowledge so there must be a timetraveller amongst them. Pallid Man is so crazy he sort of has to be from the future. And his unconcernedly violent tendencies put him right in Deacon's ballpark. And his whole beef with Cole and of course he has to preserve the timeline to make sure the virus happens otherwise he could never travel back in time and do all the crazy whatever time manipulation that the 12 Monkeys are clearly up to.

 

2) Olivia. Not even gonna try and justify this but I had a sudden weird hunch. So she's basically the daughter of ... Cole and Railly. And so she HAS to preserve the timeline and the virus outbreak otherwise she can never possibly exist. Makes total complete sense and I make one final call that BOTH my theories will be either proved or disproved in Ep 13 ;)

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bluebonnet

bluebonnet

Hi, I just signed up to post my two crazy theories. Hear me out ;)

 

1) Deacon becomes ... Pallid Man. Firstly I felt his line at the very end of Paradox was delivered exactly how Pallid Man speaks, very soft but extremely menacing. And we know the Army have a crazy amount of foreknowledge so there must be a timetraveller amongst them. Pallid Man is so crazy he sort of has to be from the future. And his unconcernedly violent tendencies put him right in Deacon's ballpark. And his whole beef with Cole and of course he has to preserve the timeline to make sure the virus happens otherwise he could never travel back in time and do all the crazy whatever time manipulation that the 12 Monkeys are clearly up to.

Ramsey is that time traveler with foreknowledge.  Olivia also appears to be a time traveler as evidenced by her lack of aging.  She at least has taken the injections those who go through the machine take.  

shapeshifter

shapeshifter

Ramsey is that time traveler with foreknowledge.  Olivia also appears to be a time traveler as evidenced by her lack of aging.  She at least has taken the injections those who go through the machine take.

Maybe the injections prevent aging even without the use of the machine. That would also be a form of time travel: To not age will everyone and everything around you does. Kind of like the special effects in the 1960 The Time Machine movie. But it wouldn't allow one to travel backwards in time.
Chuck Sellick

Chuck Sellick

Ramsey is that time traveler with foreknowledge.  Olivia also appears to be a time traveler as evidenced by her lack of aging.  She at least has taken the injections those who go through the machine take.  

 

I'm pretty sure they had foreknowledge *before* they find Ramsay. Otherwise how would they already know to expect Ramsay as well as knowing exactly what to expect *from* him?

bluebonnet

bluebonnet

I'm pretty sure they had foreknowledge *before* they find Ramsay. Otherwise how would they already know to expect Ramsay as well as knowing exactly what to expect *from* him?

Which is why I mentioned Olivia....you know, the woman who isn't aging just like Ramse isn't aging.  I mentioned Ramse first because your comment "there must be a time traveler amongst them" made it unclear whether or not you remembered Ramse had been there directing their behavior during the 'time of interference'.  

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