Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[janjan]

It's interesting that Pup mentioned "Lost" upthread, because I just read a review of S5E10 that sums up what we've all been saying. It's written by an Unsullied (or at least an Unspoiled) and so contains nothing that Oathkeepers can't read. It argues that GoT, like Lost, has lost its way and devolved into just plain bad story-telling.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/arts/television/in-game-of-thrones-finale-a-breakdown-in-storytelling.html?_r=0

 

BTW, Shimp, before you invest too much time getting your balls back, be advised that -- according to a Bookwalker friend of mine -- the books end just where this season ended. The many many cliffhangers aren't yet answered in print.

[gingerella]

Janjan, thanks for that info though not sure I want to read it. Are you sure it will not break our oath?

That said, I think enough of us are staying Unsullied and remaining in our little Habitat because, well, the night is dark and full of terrors and people unwittingly give you information you do not desire to possess, ergo, best to be safer than sorrier. I still enjoy the concept of us spitballing together without the knowledge of what happened in books. Yes, we suspected heavily that this season went off the rails because the showrunners mucked it up and veered from book story telling, however, there is still, I fear, so much we do not know that is contained in the books, so our speculation is still Unsullied, as it were, if that makes sense.

Anyway, my head is still spinning from Sunday night with many "but whys?!!"

[gingerella]

So...as i gather my thoughts after the s5 finale, I find myself asking the question, "But who is worthy to rule the Seven Kingdoms? Is there anybody who is up to that task?" Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

Dany - Although she has been set up from the beginning to be THE QUEEN OF IT ALL, homegirl truly lacks the innate skills of a ruler IMO. She seems to make mistake after mistake after mistake, imposing her idea of fairness on whatever city she inhabits. It feels like the only thing she is bringing to the table is dragons. Which to be fair is - huzzah! - quite a damn lot but still, its only firepower...can she grow into a great ruler? Dont know. But it seems like if she wants to break the wheel, I am guessing she is referring to creating a societal structure where nobody is an absolute ruler...does anyone else think that's what she meant when she said "I want to break the wheel"?

Stannis - I know some of my brethren feel that Stannis is not quite dead, and I want to ask why you feel that way because I have a bad habit of muting the tv and hiding the screen behind a raised hand when things get too grisly for my tastes. What I saw was Stannis stumbling through a spares,y wooded forest amongst all his dead men, looking more or less about to die, then two Bolton men attacked him and I didnt see where they stabbed him. Then I saw Brienne "sentence him to death" - which just cracked me up because yanno, he is basically about to BE dead but Brienne had to avenge her true wub Renley *insert eye roll in Brienne's direction here*. I saw Brienne wind up and start to swing her sword so...how is it some of you are spitballing that Stannis is still with head attached? Annnyway, overall, I thought Stannis was the only person who was worthy of the Iron Throne but the whole buring of one's child sort of makes him persona non grata for me so he is out of the running, literally and figuratively.

Tommen - What is there to say. He is a child still and acting as such. Can he grow into a man worthy of his current crown? I daresay he cannot. He is to me, weak of mind - nice but dimwitted on a good day. If they had fraternities in KL, poor Tommen would be a pledge at Delta Jackoff Douchebro, their words would be "We do it with girls!" Their sigil - a hand with thumb and pointer finger touching in an tunnel "O" shape, and their other pointer finger poking inside the "O". Let us just assume he is not King material.

Roose Bolton - Seven gods of hell, could the story ever put his crazy ass on the throne? I would like to think he and his kid would be killed eventually. But no, obviously not worthy of being King.

Jamie Lannister - Is it even possible that he could become King under any scenario? I dont think so, but he might make a decent King, oddly enough. He does have a level head in hot situations, he has shown compassion, dare I say warmth at times, could he be a decent King if given the chance?

Littlefinger - I dont see any way he could ever become more than a power seat on the Kings Council but he is a crafty little fucker so...but yeah, NOT good king material at all. speaking of which, how is it that the Sparrows have not arrested HIS ass for crimes against morality?!

Jon - I know, I know, but I dont believe he is well and truly dead! e is compassionate, dedicated, can do the unpleasant job tasks when need be (Mance's mercy killing), but does he make good decisions? I would say that yes, he does. It is just that he is surrounded by shit men. His posse is thieves, murderers, rapists and the like, so its not like he has a smart inner circle anymore, at least not with Sam, Maester Aemon and the former Lord Commander around him. When Sam left CB Jon became a lone wolf, figuratively speaking. He really has/had no other allies within CB. In fact his closest ally at that point was/ us Red Beard Wildling dude, ironically enough. But to answer my own question, Jon feels worth of the Iron Throne.

Tyrion - The only other person left I can think of that miiiiiight be worthy of the throne would be Tyrion, and interestingly to me, I think he vies with Jon for best candidate for King. He has good common sense and understands the public sentiment fairly well. He is calculating and brave in the face of war and certain defeat. He is thoughtful in his decision making and seems to make good sense when discussing complex issues. Between Tyrion and Jon, Jon has a warmth and sincerity that Tyrion often lacks, while Tyrion has a sense of humor and cunning that Jon often lacks. Hence the tie between them. I cannot think of any other people in this show who would make good rulers, the rest are shit IMO, including Dany.

[Pallas]

Tommen - What is there to say. He is a child still and acting as such. Can he grow into a man worthy of his current crown? I daresay he cannot. He is to me, weak of mind - nice but dimwitted on a good day. If they had fraternities in KL, poor Tommen would be a pledge at Delta Jackoff Douchebro, their words would be "We do it with girls!" Their sigil - a hand with thumb and pointer finger touching in an tunnel "O" shape, and their other pointer finger poking inside the "O". Let us just assume he is not King material.

 

How did he miss being Robert's son?  

 

I know, in fairness to Robert, he was obviously a masterful leader of guys being guys, and an able battlefield commander.  He also could be shrewd, and was capable of making a difficult decision.  Just, too often, the wrong one.  

 

But it seems like if she wants to break the wheel, I am guessing she is referring to creating a societal structure where nobody is an absolute ruler...does anyone else think that's what she meant when she said "I want to break the wheel"?

 

I do: that is my hope.  That's what got Tyrion's respect.  I wish we had been given any chance at all to see the part of Dany that is contemplative, that has a sense of history (and not just as a line of succession that ends, "YOUR NAME HERE"),  that could have rendered an analysis that might have ended in that thought.  But I'll take it. 

 

From ChocButterfly, a page upthread:

 

On the other hand, I'm about to think Jaqen himself is the God of Many Faces.

 

Not a priest, like the High Sparrow or Melisandre  or Thoros or (possibly) the Root Septon, but the god incarnate.  That's extraordinary.  

[janjan]

Ginger, I guarantee that the New York Times review of S10 won't void your oath, you won't have sinned in the eyes of the Seven, and Big Bird won't come and shame you for reading it. The reviewer has not read the books, and talks only of what has happened on A Show. He does speculate about possible futures, but no more than we do here.

 

When I read it, I was thinking of becoming sullied so I didn't mind the risk. But as it turned out, I did read it and did remain unsullied -- pure as the driven snow that maybe Sansa landed in.

[gingerella]

"...pure as e driven snow that maybe Sansa landed in.."

Janjan, from your lips to the gods ears, old and new...

Edited June 16, 2015 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

Gingerella-- You forget the winner of the War of Five Kings, Balon "The Damp" Greyjoy. Joffrey, Robb, Stannis, and Renley are all dead. As the last King standing in the Westeros Murderdome, Balon wins!

Ugh. Just thinking about Robb, I ... I gotta go. Something in my eye. I don't want you guys to see me like this.

[ChocButterfly]

Ginger, I like your list of potential rules, but first of all: TAKE STANNIS OFF THAT LIST, for the love of R'hollor!!! Let the man be dead and stay dead. And he'd be the worst King of all, except for the Boltons, those would be worst. The Lord of Light has forsaken him for using His Name in vain.

 

Second, I think you're being a bit harsh with Dany. I think she'd be a good ruler (if she doesn't go insane, cause she does have that little vein in her, ya know?). She has made mistakes, but she's not only young, she was powerless for so long, she had no idea what she was doing. But I think she's learning. What's more important, she has her heart in the right place and she actually listens to advice when she needs too. Plus, she's trying, which is a lot more than you can say for any of the other incompetent rulers.

 

With Tyrion, I think he'd be better off as an adviser than the King. Maybe Hand of the King? I don't know why, but I have a feeling that too much power would get him jaded and push him to his old drinking and whoring habits.

 

I agree with you that the perfect candidate is Jon, that's why he can't stay dead forever! I think the perfect solution for the 7 Kingdoms would be a union between Jon and Dany, with Tyrion as Hand. Plus, if the crazy theories are right, Dany is Jon's aunt and it'd fit perfectly with the whole Targaryan incest, heh!

[gingerella]

Choc, you are right about Dany and I stand corrected. She does have her heart in the right place most of the time, it just seems like she gets pushed into situations like reopening the killing pits, which was just not a good decision, regardless, because it goes against her whole credo, but yeah, I do see her potential.

Anyway, I was on a very, very long flight last night and could not stop thinking about A Show and something came to me that I wanted to share for your thoughts...here it is:

We started out with 6 Stark children, including Jon. Each child got his/her own direwolf and as the wolves grew it appeared that they each have/had a special bond with the Stark child that raised them. Lady was killed first, an pd unjustly so! And Robb lost his wolf when he lost his own life. What we know is that both Robb and his wolf are dead. We know Sansa's wolf, Lady, is already long dead, but we are unsure if Sansa survives jumping off the Winterfell wall with Theon. We also know that Jon appears to be dead or dying but we dont know the whereabouts of Ghost. We know that the remaining Stark children and their wolves are all still alive, as far as we know since we have not been told otherwise. Do you guys know where I'm going with this spitball??? What if...when a Stark child dies, their wolf dies with them OR visa versa, if a Stark child's wolf dies, so does the child who raised them. I know its a long shot because Sansa has lived a long time past Lady's killing, but still...I am really thinking more of Jon with this theory...that if Ghost lives, then Jon will too, somehow.

Which brings me to this...do any of the other Stark kids warg with their wolves or is it only Bran? I thought maaaaybe we had seen Rickon do something like that but I cant remember now. I dont know, I know Im grasping at straw for Jon to live...somehow...

Edited June 17, 2015 by gingerella

[Llywela]

Which brings me to this...do any of the other Stark kids warg with their wolves or is it only Bran? I thought maaaaybe we had seen Rickon do something like that but I cant remember now. I dont know, I know Im grasping at straw for Jon to live...somehow...

Trying to think - it seems such an age since we last saw Bran, never mind Rickon. I don't recall seeing Rickon warging, but I think he did have similar prophetic dreams way back when they were still at Winterfell. I seem to recall Bran getting Osha to take him down into the crypts in pursuit of something he'd dreamed, and Rickon was already there, and I think he said something that suggested he'd seen the same thing...but it was so long ago, I don't remember clearly. But Bran's warging started out with the dreams, so. Maybe.

 

I was thinking about the comparison between Jon's death and Ned's - both from out of left field, both robbing the show of what appeared to be a major character in it for the long haul. Ned's death opened up all kinds of other storylines, sent repurcussions spiralling off in all directions. Could Jon's end up doing the same? At the moment I can't see how. Jon was pivotal to the storyline at the Wall, which was both severely isolated from all the other storylines going on elsewhere and our sole window into the Big Picture of the impending zombie apocalypse so slowly meandering its way south. Jon simply doesn't connect to any other storylines to have any impact on them, so the repurcussions of his death have to play out at the Wall, but how? Jon and Stannis were the two leaders who knew about the White Walkers and both are now dead. So where does that leave this storyline? Who is left to carry this portion of the plot? Sam's gone off to wherever to learn Maestering. Dolorous Edd doesn't seem a likely leader at this stage. Allister Thorne's an antagonist, not a protagonist. Davos is at the Wall and could step up, but he'd have a lot of catching up to do before he was up to speed on the whole zombie apocalypse problem and able to move it forward. That just leaves Melisandre, whose sole plot function so far has been to see visions in fire and misinterpret them, but who does belong to the same religion that saw what's-his-name bring that other chap back from the dead a bunch of times. So there's that. Am I missing anything here? Probably. Chances are the show will spin this development off in a completely unanticipated direction that no one saw coming.

[janjan]

Llywela: Chances are the show will spin this development [Jon's death] off in a completely unanticipated direction that no one saw coming.

I hope that's true -- it would probably mean introducing a raft of new characters. The consequences of Ned's death played out among characters we already knew -- his children, Varys, LF, and Cersei & Joffers. As you say, Jon's story was detached from the others (except Stannis's, may he roast in Hell) (sorry, Stumbler), so it's hard to see how stuff could spin off from it with the characters we know. OTOH, so many of them have been killed that there is now a shortage of characters, and A Show really needs some fresh blood to get interesting again. Eek! Did I just say "blood"? I meant new characters, not just more gore for the sake of sensation.

 

My fear is that GoT has substituted sensation for imagination, so it's just gonna turn into torture porn and a gore fest. I couldn't help noticing that A Show spent more time on the death of a peripheral character (Trant) than on the death of a central characters (Jon). Just because it was gorier? Boo hiss. But maybe, as you say, there will be unexpected developments to breathe life back into GoT. A Viewer can hope.

[ChocButterfly]

We haven't seen any other Starks warging, except Bran. I guess Rickon could also warg, as he had those prophetic dreams as well, and he's already kind of feral so the jump to animal is close. But if any of the others would have the talent, they would have shown something by now. 

 

But your theory, Ginger, about the connection of the Starks and their wolves reminds me of a speculation from waaay back, when Lady was killed, I think. I don't remember who posted It, but it was something like maybe the fate of the wolves represented what was to come for the kids. So Arya would always be wondering and adventuring, because her wolf was roaming free through the forests. And Sansa would be a captive prisoner and a pawn because her wolf died, so it's like her soul had been killed. Now in retrospect, it's spooky how accurate that was!!

 

Janjan, what you say about the need of new characters it's so true, since everyone is being killed. I guess they tried it with those Stupid Snakes, but they did such a terrible job at it. I cared more about that Wildling woman from Hardhome, who was only in part of one single episode, than for those Snakes that took the entire season and we can't even remember their names!

 

I have a question, can Sam just leave the NW to become a Maester?? Isn't he breaking his vows?

[gingerella]

Yes Choc!!! I totally forgot about that spitball about the Stark children and their wolves from way back when...and when you put it like that, it sort of ties right into my thoughts of yesterday...I love in particular what you said about Arya being a wanderer because Nymeria is roaming and wandering in the forests somewhere unbeknownst to us. So it doesnt have to be tit for tat immediately - as it was with Robb and his wolf - it can be a harbinger of what fate is to come for that child or its wolf. I love this line of thinking because we all fell so deeply in love with the direwoles so quickly in S1, and to think that they harbor some other worldly connection to their Stark children, children of the wolf sigil, and children whose clan is so deeply intertwined with the nature that is all around them, that the Stark clan cannot separate themselves from the wild flora (their sacred Weirwood trees) and fauna (the direwolves, the raven/crow) that they live amongst in harmony is just a deliciously satisfying thought to me!

Edited June 18, 2015 by gingerella

[Llywela]

I have a question, can Sam just leave the NW to become a Maester?? Isn't he breaking his vows?

Jon gave him permission to go - I saw it as kind of a commission. The Night's Watch no longer has a Maester, so has sponsored one of its own to go and train to become a Maester, returning to duty after completion of that training. Like how the army will sponsor soldiers through medical school and the like.

 

Where did he say he was going? The location of the Maester school - is that going to be a new location for us next season? Or will Sam do a Bran and just disappear for a season, popping up again a year later fully trained?

 

I do find myself leaning more toward the 'Jon's gotta come back somehow because this storyline can't continue without him' theory, but then again this show does like to mix things up from time to time, so I'm preparing myself for the possibility that he won't and that story will spin off in a different direction entirely. Who'd have predicted Stannis appearing in the Wall storyline when he did? Yet he was already on the move...at the moment, there aren't any other pieces in motion that could be moved in that direction.

[90PercentGravity]

Well.... we still don't know where Benjen is...

[janjan]

Ooooooo don't remind me, 90%! The unexplained disappearance of Benjen is like a mosquito bite or a stone in your shoe -- not a humongous pain like the death of Jon, but a little pang every time you think of it.

 

Maybe A Show is trying to emulate real life, where not every situation is neatly resolved. Or maybe the actor got a better offer somewhere else. In any case, boo hiss. I want me some Benjen and I want it now!

[Pallas]

As the last King standing in the Westeros Murderdome, Balon wins!

 

Stumbler, this made me cry until I laughed.  Balon Greyjoy: First of His Name, Last to Get the Lights.  The one king who stayed home, fussed and fumed about, and dispatched his children to do his fighting for him, while he probably spent his time designing his regalia (crown of iron: too on the nose?). Secure and alone in his grim fiefdom, which no one wants any part of.  

What if...when a Stark child dies, their wolf dies with them OR visa versa, if a Stark child's wolf dies, so does the child who raised them.

 

I think when it comes to life and death, the connection may be more metaphorical.  Without Drogon, Dany's fortunes suffered and without Dany, Drogon's siblings turned aggressive.  Drogo's horse was the sacrifice required to bring him back to half-life.  (So I worry a little about Ghost, and Jon, and Melisandre...)  Since Lady died, Sansa's fate has sickened.  Cersei was right about one thing: a direwolf is no companion for a girl, if she is to be used as girls are used in Westeros.  A direwolf companion would get in the way -- get in the way of sadists and sociopaths.  It's a very different Sansa standing six feet tall as she does now, with an enormous she-wolf at her side.  She'd look mythological.  Men would risk their lives to woo her, because they'd be risking their lives to woo her.  But instead...as Sansa said, as she begins to enter womanhood, there's barely a piece of her left.

Ned's death opened up all kinds of other storylines, sent repercussions spiralling off in all directions. Could Jon's end up doing the same? At the moment I can't see how.

 

I agree, Llywela: Ned's death was what it took to sever the knots on several plotlines.  Like Tywin's.  The one way I could see Jon's death doing the same, would be if he became a martyr.  If his death inspired the half of the Watch who once chose him for their Commander, to unite with the Free Folk survivors and defeat the mutineers.  But the banding-together of people like Sam and Tormund would accomplish more than justice for Jon or Mance.  It could signify the end of the era of heroes and knights and lords, and begin to bring about the rise of people -- what the Sparrow called "the many" -- as heroes of their own lives, taking their fates into their hands.

 

I still believe that may be the endgame of this saga, from Westeros to Essos.  But for the practical reasons you mentioned, I don't think it will happen without Jon.   

[Shadowlass]

But your theory, Ginger, about the connection of the Starks and their wolves reminds me of a speculation from waaay back, when Lady was killed, I think. I don't remember who posted It, but it was something like maybe the fate of the wolves represented what was to come for the kids. So Arya would always be wondering and adventuring, because her wolf was roaming free through the forests. And Sansa would be a captive prisoner and a pawn because her wolf died, so it's like her soul had been killed. Now in retrospect, it's spooky how accurate that was!!

 

That was me! Aww, someone remembers something I wrote.

 

I thought of that again after the last episode, hoping I was wrong so that nothing bad happens to Ghost.

 

I've been curious about all the ways Jon Snow could still be around next season. So far I've got: Nursed back to health the old-fashioned way by actual people, maybe Wildlings or some Night's Watch men who are still loyal; supernatural resurrection via Melisandre (conveniently located!) or that guy from the Brotherhood Without Banners; resurrection by Qyburn; resurrection by White Walker. Resurrection by White Walker would be the most ironic and the most painful for the viewer (for me, at least), but since the wights just seem to be murder drones, I'm not sure that would be the most valuable way to use the character--unless the White Walker resurrects him as something more than a regular wight, like Locutus-of-White-Walkers. Dead and evil but walking and talking Jon Snow would be pretty awesome (and awful).

 

To the list of possible rulers of Westeros I'd add Doran Martell, since there's a great chance Ellaria has just plunged the Martells into war against the Lannisters. I'd also add Varys (did he say he doesn't want to rule? He might change his mind when faced with crappy alternatives); Margaery (assuming she survives prison)--she could rule either as the power behind Tommen or as his widow; and Arya. it seems very different from the path she's on now, but she was fascinated by the story of the Targaryen sisters who assisted their brother in conquering Westeros. And actual heir-to-the-king Gendry was in love with her, last we heard.

 

Assuming Sansa survives her fall, I could see Tyrion having her marriage to Crazypants declared null and void and using his position as husband to the heir to the King in the North to shore up his own position as king.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Shadowlass

[gingerella]

Shadowlass, post more often, I always enjoyed your thoughts!

I am heartened that we at the Unsullied Wall have been able to make such delicious chicken salad and lemonade out of such rotten chicken shit and lemons that we were served up last Sunday. As down as I was Sunday evening, ready to climb the Wall and make for Kings Road tavern, I now feel refreshed that we are still mostly here after the smoke has cleared, and that we still have a plethora of ideas that may or may not come true on S6. That said, I feel like we forgot something in our haste to regroup and conduct a headcount, and thus, I offer humbly:

Alas shimpy, she was a great Unsullied Spitballer, and now her watch has ended.

And now back to our regularly scheduled spitaballing...

[Pallas]

It's good to know the author of that lovely spec, Shadowlass!

 

I'm on record as being in favor of not only Breaking the Wheel, but Melting the Throne: by dragonfire.  Ned's molten sword would then be the sacrificial forerunner.  (And though only 3/5's the blade it was, it was still good enough to kill Stannis Baratheon.) But in the meantime...Do we have a verdict on whether women can rule Houses, or the Kingdom?  Dany isn't waiting for any ruling to come down: she has declared herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.  And Shireen tells Stannis that in the story she is reading, a Targareyn woman and her half-brother were competing for the throne. Even if The Dance of Dragons is a tale and not historical fiction, if a woman can't rule the Seven Kingdoms as Queen Regnant, you'd think Stannis would have felt compelled to comment.  Even under the circumstances.  (A lobster cannot choose his spots.)  Especially since this would clear up the point for viewers.  

 

So on balance, I'd say women can rule the Seven Kingdoms.  As for the Houses...Yara is older than Theon, but Theon was the heir to the Iron Islands.  Bran is younger than Sansa, but Bran was acknowledged as Lord of Winterfell while Robb was alive (since Robb was now King of the North) and after his death. Catelyn seems to have been older than Edmure, but Edmure was the heir to the Riverlands.  Cersei is older than Tyrion, yet...

 

Still, this simply establishes that the daughter of a Lord takes a back seat to her brothers, of any age, in the line of succession.  It doesn't prove that she can never inherit the title.  

To the list of possible rulers of Westeros I'd add Doran Martell, since there's a great chance Ellaria has just plunged the Martells into war against the Lannisters.

 

I'm not sure -- who's left to fight it for King Tommen, aka, Queen Cersei?  The Lannister forces are depleted and probably demoralized by all the scuttlebutt. There's no money in the Treasury for supplies, provisions and ships.  The alliance with the Tyrells is...well, it's seen better days.  On the other hand, the threat posed by Stannis is no more, no new King of the North has declared himself (yet), and Balon Greyjoy isn't bothering anyone, except by breathing.  Cersei only has Littlefinger's word that Sansa is with the Boltons at Winterfell, and meanwhile, the Boltons just defeated the arch-usurper, Stannis.  So if Cersei can defer settling accounts with the Boltons, her armies are, for now, freed from guarding against threats from the North.  

 

But a lot could rest on what happens aboard the ship carrying Jaime and Trystane, in the immediate aftermath of Myrcella's death. The ship and crew are Dornish: they'll take their orders from Trystane.  And Trystane won't just continue on to King's Landing now, will he?  Expecting to be escorted to his seat on the Small Council?  But will Jaime and Bronn resist going back to Dorne, and somehow gain the upper hand?  Would Jaime bring a captive Trystane to King's Landing, to be met by Cersei? Knowing that Doran will likely send his armies after him?  Or would he bring the grieving boy back to his father, and this time, not incite a war?  It's a wicked dilemma, and huge consequences rest on Jaime's judgment.  Oh boy.

[gingerella]

Wow Pallas, that was indeed a meaty, juicy collection of musings! Mmmmmmm!

I must have forgotten the story description by Shireen to Stannis because if that doesnt describe Dany vs. Jon, I dont know what does, right? Who else could be her half brother other than Jon, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? That must seal that fate of Jon's parentage, yes? What is wrong with me that I cannot remember our voracious discussion of tat tidbit?!?

As for what will happen to Trystane and whether or not Jamie will continue on to KL, I cannot imagine why they would not turn right around and go back into port since they are a spit away from Dorne right now. IF Jamie and Bronn were on a Lannister ship right now (does anyone remember if we saw any house banners flying from that ship?), then I assume they will continue to KL with a dead body onboard, blech! And I can only imagine the wrath of Cersei when she learns Trystane's family member killed her precious daughter...not good for Trystane. At all. However, IF they are on board a Dornish ship and they turn around and go back to port, then we get more time in Dorne in S6, which would answer our question as to why A Show bothered to set up Dorne for 5 seasons only to show a cursory glance of it in S6. We could be in for more Bronn and his pretty little snake, and more Jaime and Doran interaction, which could be very, very interesting, particularly if Jamie gets word of the Sparrows and Cersei...that might be enough to break his interest in returning to KL anytime soon. Which would be rather amazing as I never contemplated Jaime forsaking KL or Cersei before now.

[janjan]

On rewatch: When Sansa and Theon were on the battlement, there was a brief shot of the ground below, and it was covered in snow. There was no way to judge how deep it was.

 

The ship with Jaime & Co. would have to be Dornish, since no one in KL other than Cersei knows where Jaime is, and she's been, er, otherwise occupied. All the sailors would likely be loyal to Tristane, so Jaime and Bronn have no say in what happens next. It doesn't seem likely that Tristane would want to go on to KL. Will it be obvious to Doran how Myrcella was killed?

 

When Qyburn introduces Mountainstein to Cersei, he says Mountain has vowed not to speak until all's the king's enemies are dead. Tommen has enemies? From the look on Cersei's face, we can be sure that the Sparrows top that list.

 

Is Shimpy really gone? <sniffle>

[gingerella]

Janjan, it might not be obvious who dun it re: Myrcella, but I think that it is probably pretty clear to Jaime that she was poisoned because of how she died, and also that it was a Dornish hit because afterall, they are known to be masters of poison, right? I could see the set up for Bronn's snakey girl to spill the beans to him about Ellaria killing Myrcella because she seemed an outcast amongst her other two snake sisters, didnt she?

[janjan]

Yeah, Ginger, little Snakie was losing the slappy game with Big Sis, and Sis rolled her eyes at Snakie's flirting with Bronn. So maybe Bronn will get info from her when they get back to Dorne. OTOH, Snakie's the one who offered her mother the tissue to wipe the blood and poison off her face, so she's definitely complicit.

 

On the third hand, Bronn might well recognize the symptoms if Jaime describes them to him, so Snake info might not be needed.

 

I can't believe we're devoting more than two sentences to the Stupid Snakes!

[ChocButterfly]

Hey, Shadow, so it was you! I didn't remember the poster, but of course I remember the speculation, great ideas last forever ;)

 

Alas shimpy, she was a great Unsullied Spitballer, and now her watch has ended.  

I didn't forget to mention her, I was just hoping she'd reconsider and come back. I still think she could come back, if she hasn't  climbed that Wall completely. Am I in denial again as with Jon? :(

 

The theories of the repercussions of Myrcella's death are interesting. I haven't really thought about it. Jaimie could blame it on the Martells or not, but Doran will know for sure it was Ellaria. Will he do something about it? Will Jaimie continue to King's Landing with her daughter's corpse? Will Trystane? I think Cersei is going to have her hands full dealing with the Sparrows (I hope she kills them all) to deal with a war with Dorne at the moment, but if she finds out the Martells are responsible for her daughter's death, she'd go full Mad King on them. So what will happen??

 

I don't care anymore about Ellaria and the other Snakes, they could all die next season. I do care about pretty Snake, Doran and Trystane. I don't know why I care about Pretty Snake, though, maybe is because she saved Bronn and I think they'd make a good couple.

Shadow is right, Doran would indeed be the best of the lot to rule Westeros, that's why I think he's not  for this world. Same as Trystane.

[Glory]

I wasn't able to watch GoT in real time this season. Instead, I mainlined it all over the past weekend and I've been thinking a lot about how it ended. 

 

While I DOUBT that this would ever come to pass, I would absolutely love it if Sansa and Theon ran into Brienne and made it out of there. I picture Sansa deciding that Theon will have to be watched over by her now and declaring herself Wardeness of the North. Maybe she'd go to the rest of Greyjoys? Or maybe not. I don't know - but there has got to be some people somewhere that would still back a Stark and I'd kill for Sansa to have her own agency for just a little bit. 

 

A tiny little part of me wants her to somehow end up in contention for the throne and appoint Brienne the first of her Queen's Guard. I have no idea how this could occur though. 

 

I really hope Sansa's not dead. Though my initial impression of the scene was that she had killed herself by leaping off the wall. 

[Anothermi]

 

Remaining Unsullied is hard - there seem to be Game of Thrones headlines popping up all over the Interwebz just lately. When is the premiere date? Next week? I've been trying to remember what happened at the end of last season...but puzzling through those memories is probably better in another thread.

 

Let me add my thanks to SilverStormm. :)

 

Bringing this post by Llywela from the Friendly White Cloaks thread.

 

Hail and well met, Llywela. Glad you made it through the perils that lurk outside The Spitball Wall. Hope that Glory has made it through also, so sad you arrived after we all went underground to weather the Summer, Fall & Winter of Bookwalkers and spoiler headlines, links, conversations overheard....

 

The date on the Thread that called me back to the Spitball Wall (The Red Woman thread) is Apr. 24, 2016 - this Sunday. Thank the Old Gods and the New that our trusty WhiteCloaks sent out that thread as a signal to return or I would have still been off wondering the wastelands of procedural crime dramas.

 

So... The Red Woman... Will this be about Mellisandre, or just a fake out. Sometimes I have trouble linking the episode Title with the episode content. I'm hoping that she's had a crash course in resurrection majix (like Thoros of Mir) so we  can still get some Jon Snow this season. I'll be right pissed if we NEVER get to learn who his mother was/is. It's also not fair to have to lose BOTH of our dour, humorless characters - Jon and Stannis.

[stamps foot, then runs panic stricken to the Unsullied Index and Character Guide - thank the Gods it's still there - to retrieve and insert the names of all the characters except Jon and Stannis into my rambling post. It HAS been a long time since I last thought of this show]

[Llywela]

[stamps foot, then runs panic stricken to the Unsullied Index and Character Guide - thank the Gods it's still there - to retrieve and insert the names of all the characters except Jon and Stannis into my rambling post. It HAS been a long time since I last thought of this show]

:D I'm still trying to remember where we left off.

 

Stannis burned poor little Shireen and then came a cropper at the hands of first what's-his-name Bolton's army and then Brienne's sword. Sansa and Theon jumped off a tower into a snow drift. Arya went undercover to strike a name off her list and somehow ended up blind. Jon Snow was Lord Commander and got stabbed (but he can't be dead, surely - too much plot revolves around him???) Um. I'm coming up blank on everyone else. Oh yeah, Tyrion joined Dany and there was a revolt so she flew off on Drogon and left the mess behind. Jaime went to Dorne and it was a total waste and ended with his daughter being killed.

 

What am I not remembering?

[Anothermi]

Well, at least you remembered all the bright spots.  :D >.<

 

There was also raping, torturing and humiliating - in particular of Sansa - which prompted much split-mindedness amongst many of us about even continuing this season. Luckily for me that is but a dim memory. I doubt that bliss will last long.

 

I couldn't bring myself to rewatch last season. However, I don't expect ANYTHING to get better and I DO expect everything to get worse. Think I prepared enough?

[Llywela]

I couldn't bring myself to rewatch last season. However, I don't expect ANYTHING to get better and I DO expect everything to get worse. Think I prepared enough?

Well, you're at least as prepared as I am! I daresay all the other grim little details we've blotted from our memories will slowly but surely be impressed upon us once more when the new season starts...

[Pallas]

Salutations anothermi, Llywela and gingerella (from the mod thread). I'm so glad to see you've survived the long winter of our discontent with Season Fail!

 

So... The Red Woman... Will this be about Mellisandre, or just a fake out. Sometimes I have trouble linking the episode Title with the episode content. I'm hoping that she's had a crash course in resurrection majix (like Thoros of Mir) so we  can still get some Jon Snow this season.

 

I think the snow saved Sansa, and Melisandre will save Jon Snow. There's a reason that the Red Woman and the Onion Knight ended up alive and together at Castle Black, just as Jon bled out.

 

Melisandre is now humbled, perhaps even aghast at her own doings and misdeeds. She'll have to confess to Davos that she burned Shireen and then abandoned Stannis on the battlefield. Rather than berate or behead her, Davos will be forced to embolden her -- turn her to the task of resurrecting Jon, admired by their late king Stannis as the son-he-never-had. Melisandre will protest that she must be a false prophet, unloved by the Red God, and if Davos needs more proof of that?, well, even at the height of her delusions, she never claimed or earned the power of resurrection.

 

Davos will remind her that he witnessed her create life or something like it, and that resurrecting Jon is all she has left to do on this earth. Not to be redeemed, but to atone. Perhaps, to justify this whole clusterfuck of an outing to the North. Because Jon Snow might be the king she saw triumphant in her vision, still to come...or at least, he's cute. And who wants to listen to that poor wolf!

[Llywela]

I like your way of thinking, Pallas. We know that resurrection is possible in this world - what's-his-name did it for thingummybob. Wow, I really have forgotten all the names! Thoros of Mir! I think that was him. Right? And I have vague memories that Melisandre met him - when she acquired Gendry? Did she know that he'd raised the dead? Because that would have taught her that resurrecting the dead is possible - might inspire her to give it a try? Maybe? She did seem taken by Jon, as I recall.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if I'm going to be able to even watch the show live this year - I'm not sure I have the channel any more. I must investigate!

[Anothermi]

Welcome back Pallas! We still have our scribe and wordsmith! Get comfy and help yourself to a vessel of grog.

 

You have a better grasp of what last occurred than either Llywela or I. I must hang my head in shame at having to look up the Onion Knight - one of my favorite characters too - but I still can't remember why he's at Castle Black? I need to read a recap - but I'm afraid I'll encounter bookwalker info in them. Gah.

 

I like the scenario you have spitballed but I currently can allow myself hope of any kind. If I nurture even a smidgen of hope that Bolton Bastard with get hold of it and flay it to shreds. :-(

 

We know that resurrection is possible in this world - what's-his-name did it for thingummybob.

 

See Llywela? It"s starting to come back to you already:

what's-his-name DOES equal Thoros of Mir

thingummybob = (wait a sec while I nip out to the Character thread) ... Berric Dondarrion, he who was sent forth by Eddard Stark - then Hand of King Robert -  to stop the Mountain from laying waste to the Riverlands. Ah the good old days, when a missing character could be put on a milk carton and actually found again.

 

And you are right again, that Mel met Thoros of Mir when she came looking for King's blood -AKA Gendry - to help her help Stannis (to ruin). She learned that Thoros had the power to resurrect and was - at the least - um, disconcerted that the scruffy, drunken, non-scheming guy got that power from the Red God while SHE.... got parlor tricks involving fire, and leeches.

[Llywela]

So maybe Jon's stabbing is the ideal opportunity for Mel to prove she's got more going for her than parlour tricks and get with the kind of Lazarus programme that Thoros had going on. I don't recall that they exchanged methodology, though, so she may not know how. But it can't be coincidence that she's at Castle Black just when a major plot-bearing character is in need of a miracle, surely? Show hasn't shied from killing off major characters before, but...Jon seems so integral to the plot in that part of the world. Who else is going to pick up the banner and march with it?

 

Oh, I think I remember why Davos is at Castle Black. Didn't Stannis send him in a desperate bid for reinforcements, when it was looking like his army was about to lose, but before the last-ditch daughter-burning?

 

I feel I'm still hazy on a whole bunch of characters and key plot points. I daresay it'll all come flooding back once the theme tune kicks in!

[Pallas]

Didn't Stannis send him in a desperate bid for reinforcements, when it was looking like his army was about to lose, but before the last-ditch daughter-burning?

 

Heh, Llywela. Last-ditch daughter-burning: in Westeros, always a hot ticket in the Winter Olympics. Yes, just prior to sending Shireen to her death, Stannis got Davos and his scruples out of the way by sending a man on a boy's errand to Castle Black.  

 

She learned that Thoros had the power to resurrect and was - at the least - um, disconcerted that the scruffy, drunken, non-scheming guy got that power from the Red God while SHE.... got parlor tricks involving fire, and leeches. 

 

Disconcerted is right, Anothermi. As I recall, Thoros didn't do anything special to bring Beric back to life: he was simply a vessel for the power of the Lord of Light.That's what stuck in Mel's craw. There wasn't a recipe she could crib. If I'm right, she'll exposition all that to Davos (to bring her viewers back up to speed), and he'll need to rally her past that.

 

If I nurture even a smidgen of hope that Bolton Bastard with get hold of it and flay it to shreds. :-(

 

From what even we Unsullied have gleaned from the universe, we know that G.R.R.M.'s narrative is seeping toward its culmination.

 

PREVIOUSLY: Tyrion has thrown his lot in with Dany. Dany is riding her prodigal. Jaime (and the victim of last-ditch daughter-poisoning) are heading back to King's Landing, to reunite with the shamed Cersei and more monstrous Mountain, and make their stand. Baelish is also headed to King's Landing -- or so he said, and I'm fool enough to believe him. Arya is (temporarily?) sightless and enmeshed with the Braavosi assassins. Brandon is permanently crippled and entwined in the roots of the Weirwood Tree God. Rickon, Osha and Hodor are in flight or in hiding. The Free People and the Night's Watch are either about to turn on each other again, or take on the White Walkers. Sansa and Theon, if they survived, are within sight of Brienne, if she doesn't sleep, piss, or glance away from her little window. We're down to...one fair-haired child of incest and how many kings?

 

The board looks to be close to set up. This season should begin to drop hints toward the answer, Is this story pure nihilism? If not, a few of these plotlines have to begin to bend away from despair.   

[gingerella]

All hail, ye faithful servants of the Spitball Wall. I shall be joining you in viewship slightly late this premier, but echo anothermi, I hold out bitter seeds of fruitless hope that either Bolton will bite the dust this season. Lest we forget how long we endured the sick fuckery that was King Joffs of Single Branch Family Treeville, I shudder to think we will be subjected to another season of Ramsey again. If this is a world where the most demented masochists survive and good folks die in gruesome ways, this will be a waste of my precious life to watch yet another season of discontent and disgust...

 

...Yet here I am, ready t see what S6 holds for the Show as a Rubik's Cube...onward...and "Hodor!"

 

ETA: The other Jon Snow possibility is that he wargs into Ghost. We have not seen him warg yet, but because he is so close to Ghost, perhaps Ghost can initiate the warging?  Hey, it's possible right?!

 

I also am mulling over that Sansa will survive the fall, and if Theon does as well, that she ends up having to make a decision to kill him, or something like that to ensure she lives...it would be the sort of thing she would struggle with, but I could see a seminal moment like that turning the tides for Sansa....almost like she has to kill to rebirth herself as a survivor instead of the victim she has been for so long.

 

And in other GoT news, I hope we see Rickon and Bran again...and Shaggy Dog...

 

The whole Sparrows thing, I'm over it. The whole Bolton's prevail whilst being supreme evil shits, I'm over. Totally. Cersei and Jamie and their dead daughter, I'm over it. Though I wonder, didn't the young prince come back on that boat?  Wouldn't he be a dead man walking when Cersei learns her daughter was killed?

Edited April 24, 2016 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Hooray, gingerella! Thrilling to see you here on the parapets. I just completed a season 5 rewatch last night (no, I'll be okay: just let me get some air), and I'm convinced of one thing. If this saga stands for something -- and I believe it does -- that something is part of your Rubik's Cube. The Cube is the device to show us how the pieces fit, and move us by that artistry.

 

Though I wonder, didn't the young prince come back on that boat?  Wouldn't he be a dead man walking when Cersei learns her daughter was killed?

 

Right you are -- and the plan for Prince Tristain to accompany Myrcella was announced in Ellaria's presence, and so, featured into her scheme. She wants Cersei to kill the young prince, and as unjustly as possible. In part to hurt his father, Oberyn's brother, but mostly to incite him: to burn through his own ethos and all he knows, to declare war. (And Ellaria doesn't know that Bronn is aware of the poison and its symptoms, by her youngest daughter's playfulness and mercy.) So I think Ellaria imagines the story will be that Myrcella died of some mysterious ailment, and Cersei then ruthlessly murdered Tristane in retaliation. The Prince will see that his tolerance and forbearance led to nothing but the death of his son.    

 

I could see a seminal moment like that turning the tides for Sansa....almost like she has to kill to rebirth herself as a survivor instead of the victim she has been for so long.

 

But Sansa is a survivor: so far she has survived Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Littlefinger and both Boltons. She has parried as well as submitted, but most of all, kept her head. Through her dignity, she has converted angry, wounded men into her allies (The Hound, Tyrion, now Theon). She acted boldly to flee King's Landing and then to escape her room, light her candle, take Theon's hand and jump. Now she's near Brienne, possibly the Hound, sympathetic Northerners, her family's bannermen, Rickon in hiding and Bran underground. She has a shot, and now she's steeled to take it.

 

Oh, and of course Littlefinger went to King's Landing. It's he who met with the High Sparrow at Cersei's request and suggested Olivier the brothelkeeper as a witness against Loras -- then on his own time, also suggested Lancel as a witness against Cersei. Meanwhile he gave away the Boltons' game and got Cersei's blessing to attack Winterfell with the armies of the Vale, then be named Warden. It's not so much her blessing he needed as her assurance that she wouldn't send her own troops. So in an afternoon, he made points with both his supposed allies while actually scoring blows against them, and was given free rein to take the North for himself. If the game of thrones were really a game, maybe he should win.  

 

I hadn't taken in that much about The Faceless and the Many-Faced God, or all the ways Arya has been figuratively blind to their culture, even while pretending to apprentice. By abandoning their own egos, the Faceless learn to see behind the faces -- the masks, the lies -- that others wear. So, the Game of Faces. The High Sparrow makes the same point to Cersei when he says that the original people of King's Landing -- pre-Targareyn invasion -- built an altar that withstood time because the carvers didn't sign it, didn't "send their vanity forward into the future."  

 

I think it may be this very egoless-ness that allows the Faceless to get close to those they send to death, close enough to dispatch them: from the suffering folk who come to the House in Braavos, to the Lannister soldiers Jaqen took out for Arya. That's the magic.

[ChocButterfly]

Well, I'm back as well. Gotta finish what we started.

 

I haven't even seen any rerun, so I'm not that sure who's left. Not like if I watch I'll know anyway. I'm not that excited about the premiere as I was seasons ago. I'm positive Jon will be resurrected by Mel and I'm sure Sansa is alive. I hope she lands on Theon and kills him.

 

Other than that, I don't care that much. Oh, but please, let Stannis be dead for good!

[Anothermi]

Well, I'm back as well. Gotta finish what we started.

 

Hail and welcome back ChocButterfly. Slowly we gather to defend the Spitball Wall. Grab a grog and get comfy. I beginning to think of us as akin to the Brotherhood with out Banners. Ragged and diminishing in numbers, but content with each others company.

[Anothermi]

I'm posting here because this is speculation broader ranging than just the recent episode.

The brief glimpse we got of Winterfell when Ned was a boy got me thinking about so many of the other characters we met as older (or dead - like Lyanna). Way back, possibly in TWoP discussions, I wondered about the deep antipathy between Eddard and, well, all Lanisters. We got a good idea about that as we learned more about the role Tywin played in the Rebellion against the Targs that Robert and Ned spearheaded. Good old Oberyen (RIP) offered much exposition about when he and Elia visited Casterly Rock. I'm wondering if Ned had formed his opinion about Tywin in another context when he was much younger.

I doubt that they would have been contemporaries. Tywin was a bit older. He may have already had Jaime and Cersei at the time we were treated to this episode S06E02 - when Ned was 10 ish? IIRC Jaime was about 16 when he joined the King's Guard which would have made Ned possibly 26 (in his prime) when he dragged Jaime off the Iron Throne. (always difficult to determine time frames on this show so roll with me for a bit)

I don't know exactly where I am going with this, but it seems to me that we've seen that everyone has been marked, or had their character formed, due to some pivotal event in their youth. E.g. - Littlefinger when Brandon (Sr) humiliated and almost killed him when he tried to fight to win Catelyn.

My spitball is that Tywin - while he acts all entitled - may harbour deep insecurities due to how people treated him when his father was the head (and a concilliatory one at that) of the Lannisters. So many of the members of the Lannister Clan that we have met have been (comparatively) reasonable human beings (thinking of Kevan especially - can fight a good fight but not into over-the-top behaviours. He always seemed the most Ned-like of the Lannisters to me).

Perhaps a young and cocky Ned somehow "dissed" Tywin back before he was made Hand-of-the-King and the response was "over the top" setting up a life long mututal hatred society between them?

Edited May 5, 2016 by Anothermi
missing word added

[gingerella]

anothermi, you may be on to something there as far as adult personalities are formed amongst this bunch, though it's also possible that Tywin was just a natural asshole. I mean, A Show has treated us to such monstrous delights like Joffrey King of Chickenshit, and Ramsey Satan Incarnate.  The assholes at Harrenhal with the rat buckets, the list goes on and on with A Show.  Sometimes an asshole is simply an asshole, no defining moment necessary.

I was thinking of something related to our Rubik's Cube and something someone said somewhere, though I cannot remember where it was said...It as this, "magic begets magic..."  If that is so, I'm wondering if Jon re-born by Mel's Lord of Light magic, will awaken and suddenly have magical powers he was previously unaware of...?  I mean, Mel has ogled him many a time, and tried to seduce him, but why exactly?  She sensed something in him, and perhaps it was he who is meant to be the King in her visions...but...maaaaybe he caught her eye because intuitively something in her "magical-ness" recognized that this was a man who had latent and yet undiscovered magical powers that she could awaken in him.  Is it possible that Jon comes back from the dead able to perform magic?

[90PercentGravity]

I think the point of the flashback is to show us that Hodor once spoke, which may mean he'll speak again. People seeing him as a mute half-wit probably means they wouldn't think twice about what they say or do in front of him. If he starts speaking again, he'll have lots of secrets to tell. 

I really hope the show isn't wasting time developing characters who are long gone. 

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, 90PercentGravity said:

I think the point of the flashback is to show us that Hodor once spoke, which may mean he'll speak again. People seeing him as a mute half-wit probably means they wouldn't think twice about what they say or do in front of him. If he starts speaking again, he'll have lots of secrets to tell. 

I really hope the show isn't wasting time developing characters who are long gone. 

I agree with you that the likely point of the flashback was to highlight that Hodor could once speak and... "if walls had ears..." is always an attractive notion (not to say that Hodor is a wall, just treated as one... ).

But I'm enjoying these characters enough that I would LOVE if the show treated us to learning about long gone - in a relative sense - characters. (After all, Tywin is barely cold in his grave.)  ;-)

I love exploring the less trodden path, and Unspoiled Speculation is a great place to do it. No productions costs associated with that so nothing wasted from my POV.

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was thinking of something related to our Rubik's Cube and something someone said somewhere, though I cannot remember where it was said...It as this, "magic begets magic..."  If that is so, I'm wondering if Jon re-born by Mel's Lord of Light magic, will awaken and suddenly have magical powers he was previously unaware of...?  I mean, Mel has ogled him many a time, and tried to seduce him, but why exactly?  She sensed something in him, and perhaps it was he who is meant to be the King in her visions...but...maaaaybe he caught her eye because intuitively something in her "magical-ness" recognized that this was a man who had latent and yet undiscovered magical powers that she could awaken in him.  Is it possible that Jon comes back from the dead able to perform magic?

I think that discussion came up more than once, but we certainly discussed it regarding the appearance of Mel and also in regards to Pyat Pree who captured Dany and her dragons - intending to treat them all like his personal daily dose of vitamin M (for magic of course). He told her his/their magic had become stronger since she came to Qarth with her dragons.

Perhaps Jon has some special ability, but what? Bran can see the past and the future and is a warg. Dany is fire proof. Arya is learning to be faceless (which is to say become anyone, almost... I think the faces "no one" uses belong to the already dead so she shouldn't be able to become one of her siblings at an opportune moment). Sansa, seemingly, can inspire intense loyalty among 'cripples, bastards and broken things'.

Not sure what Jon's ability would be. Luckily he (mostly) got over his ability to annoy with his nobody-understands-me-ness. NOT a useful ability.

He is probably the only one capable of convincing the Westrosi that they should get over their petty squabbles and join together for the 'biggest squabble Westeros has ever seen!' to pervert Mance Rayder's famous line. We didn't get to see what Berric Dondarrion meant when he spoke about the effects of resurrection "each time, a little less..." (thanks Pallas for quoting that recently).

Because of Jon's current state (about to arise from the dead) I think Ygritte can rest safe in the knowledge there will be no rival for their great love. I don't expect any love interest for him. My thinking is: if anything is a little less for Jon, it'll be his "seed" or interest in sowing same.

Unless that turns out to be what is magical about him? <just kidding>

Edited May 5, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Well, if Jon does end up having magical powers, I would think if he was half Targ, he might be fireproof as a starting point. As for warging, maybe he has that ability but hasn't realized it yet? Maybe Bran only found his warging ability because he had a life changing moment - being pushed out the castle window and becoming paralyzed - that sort of uncovered his ability as a seer.  Now, perhaps Jon having a life changing moment - being resurrected from the dead by magic - will activate his magical powers, whatever they may be, in the same way Bran's life changing moment activated his.  Just my two cents for today...

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, 90PercentGravity said:

I think the point of the flashback is to show us that Hodor once spoke, which may mean he'll speak again. People seeing him as a mute half-wit probably means they wouldn't think twice about what they say or do in front of him. If he starts speaking again, he'll have lots of secrets to tell. 

Ooh, here's a thought. Maybe Hodor knows something about whatever the heck happened between Lyanna and the Targaryen prince who carried her off? Maybe it'll be Hodor who reveals clues about Jon's true parentage? Whenever we've gone over the fast shrinking list of people who might know the truth and be able to reveal it at an opportune moment, we never considered Hodor, because he couldn't speak, but now we know he could speak once, and he was there when it all happened, so maybe he knows something - and just needs to regain his words to be able to reveal it.

I still want to know how he became mute. I feel the detail of that could be important to the question of whether or not it can be undone.

[gingerella]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

Ooh, here's a thought. Maybe Hodor knows something about whatever the heck happened between Lyanna and the Targaryen prince who carried her off? Maybe it'll be Hodor who reveals clues about Jon's true parentage? Whenever we've gone over the fast shrinking list of people who might know the truth and be able to reveal it at an opportune moment, we never considered Hodor, because he couldn't speak, but now we know he could speak once, and he was there when it all happened, so maybe he knows something - and just needs to regain his words to be able to reveal it.

I still want to know how he became mute. I feel the detail of that could be important to the question of whether or not it can be undone.

Annnnd, he was of the same age group as that crew back then so yeah, perhaps he does know something, that would be a cool twist! I want to believe there was a bigger reason to show us Hodor once was able to speak...it can't be just a passing glimpse, can it?

[DirewolfPup]

Llywela, that sounds completely plausible. Honestly, everyone else from that generation in dead. Who else would know?

This makes me even more afraid of how Hodor got his disability? Did he see or hear something that he wasn't supposed to and got hit or beat badly? 

He could have been shoved out of the tower and landed on his head a la Episode 1 with Bran. Poor Hodor.

[Pallas]

On 5/5/2016 at 1:54 AM, Llywela said:

Ooh, here's a thought. Maybe Hodor knows something about whatever the heck happened between Lyanna and the Targaryen prince who carried her off?

Great Rhaegar's ghost, Llywela, that resonates. Lyanna the equestrian; Wyllis the stableboy. Lyanna who suggests Wyllis as a sparring partner and knows he has an observant eye as he's watching training. Was Wyllis with Lyanna as her attendant when she eloped (I think) with Rhaegar, and was he injured in the battle in which Robert killed Rhaegar? (After Ned found Lyanna and newborn Jon, and swore to save the baby?) And we also already know that Bran can warg into Hodor: perhaps it may be Hodor who is serving as the POV for Bran's visions now. The Tree God interrupted at the very moment that Non escorted Wyllis from the scene...

[gingerella]

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

Great Rhaegar's ghost, Llywela, that resonates. Lyanna the equestrian; Wyllis the stableboy. Lyanna who suggests Wyllis as a sparring partner and knows he has an observant eye as he's watching training. Was Wyllis with Lyanna as her attendant when she eloped (I think) with Rhaegar, and was he injured in the battle in which Robert killed Rhaegar? (After Ned found Lyanna and newborn Jon, and swore to save the baby?) And we also already know that Bran can warg into Hodor: perhaps it may be Hodor who is serving as the POV for Bran's visions now. The Tree God interrupted at the very moment that Non escorted Wyllis from the scene...

duuuuuude! I totally missed the equestrian connection there, DUH! Awesome spitball friend...

[Pallas]

Except...oh well! Looks like the war's over, as Young Ned put it. During the fight between Young Ned/Young Reed and men vs. Rhaegar's guard, I kept looking to see if there were an exceptionally large combatant. Nope. I know Wyllis could still be standing guard over Lyanna, but then how does he become disabled? Ned is obviously willing to lie to protect Lyanna's secret, but not maim a bright and amiable attendant he grew up with. And I don't, at all, see this story as one where servants go mute with grief at the death of their lords or ladies.