Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

I think Tryion did need to know why it was so important to Tywin to be rid of him, that his own father participated in framing him for killing the King.  That's a huge freaking deal, Twyin would rather have the Lannister name -- and not just the Lannister name , the name of another one of his children, another of his sons -- forever associated in the freaking history books with Regicide rather than see Tyrion continue to live. 

 

Is merely existing that much of a burden for Twyin to bear when it comes to Tryion?  He'd rather be defamed and infamous (again) throughout the land, than have Tyrion at his liberty.  

 

I have never in my entire life hated anyone that much.  I've never even come close and it isn't as if I'm a saint, because....to put it mildly and with wild amounts of understatement; I'm not a saint, it just that Tywin has an absolutely dumbfounding level of hatred for Tyrion, not just his person, his existence.  

 

Yet, he wouldn't have Tyrion killed  Tywin would not be held responsible by history for having killed his own son.  He was, however, willing for history to judge Tywin as having been right to hate Tyrion that much.  

 

I think that's what Tyrion went to ask about, to talk about.  Also, if Varys, who wouldn't lie to Tywin about Shae, who wouldn't make an enemy out of the Lannisters for any reason, was participating in Tyrion's escape, what are the chances that Tywin pretty much knew that Jaime was likely to do something like this and that Varys was acting with Tywin's tacit approval. 

 

If Tyrion ran, that's a confirmation of guilty to many.  Just as Sansa fleeing was spun into guilt.  So I can see why Tyrion would set out just to ask, "Why? HOW?"  How do you hate someone that much?  

 

I don't think Tyrion was lost, or cocky enough to just risk his life for confirmation, I think he suspected that Tywin was ....if not in the know...certainly not taking great and definitive steps to make Tyrion's escape an impossibility.  So I think Tyrion was out to get an answer and had figured out that since essentially nothing happened in King's Landing without Tywin knowing about it (even if he was giving denial a big old hug about it) , his father was expecting, or accepting Tyrion's escape, so he likely wasn't risking his liberty that much.  

[90PercentGravity]

Not to change the subject, but on the topic of where are Varys and Tyrion headed. I think it is likely they are going to Essos to hide out; in fact, probable. Good luck with that, bald eunuch and scar-faced dwarf.

[stillshimpy]

Not to change the subject, but on the topic of where are Varys and Tyrion headed. I think it is likely they are going to Essos to hide out; in fact, probable. Good luck with that, bald eunuch and scar-faced dwarf.

 

That's actually why I think they might be bound for Camp Dany.  They both have LOTS of information about the Seven Kingdoms and Varys role in any Baratheon rule (since Tommen is a Baratheon in name also) is pretty much done.  Even if Stannis conquers , he wouldn't have Varys or Tyrion on the team.  Tommen's rule can't possibly really work out all that well for anyone.  His best bet is listening to Margaery and the Tyrells and with Cersei around, I doubt Margaery will get much influence.  

 

But Varys is a power player and they are both highly recognizable.  I'm not sure that Dany would accept Varys or Tyrion, but Varys has ties to Ilyrio -- where Viserys and Dany were staying when we first met them -- so he might actually come with a recommendation.  

 

I suppose they could also just both run away to Dorne.  Tyrion has the "I completely murdered Tywin Lannister" as his "How do you like me now?" calling card.  

[gingerella]

I don't believe Tyrion was lost.  Jaime's instructions were clear and easy -- top of the stairs, knock at the door -- and more, Tyrion seems to have been imprisoned in the Tower of the Hand.  He would know where he is.  This is where he felt most alive, most essential, most in command.  This is where he was "good at this."   This is the place he refused to give up, even for love and comfort, until Tywin took it from him.  That in itself may also be what compelled him to re-visit, at risk of what he still had left.

When I was reading Pallas' above post, I remembered something I'd forgotten...First, I didn't realize that Tyrion was being imprisoned within the Tower of the Hand, and I'd forgotten that he was the Hand at all, it seems so long ago, but I did wonder when he went into the bed chamber, "Gee, that looks like Tyrion's old bedroom..." DUH. Anyway, then I remembered that at some point around the wedding/murder, someone told Tywin about Shae, and told them to find her and lock her in the Tower. I remember he specifically said Tower. At that point, we thought Bronn had done his job and gotten her on a ship, but who knows what actually happened there and whether or not Bronn was bought off by Tywin at that point, or if he did indeed think he'd spirited Shae away. Knowing Shae and how enraged and jealous she became of the made up love and devotion that Tyrion suddenly professed for his wife Sansa, I could definitely see Shae saying, "fuck this shit, I'm gonna get back at that fucker" and getting right off said ship. But we don't know what happened during that time period.  What we do know, is Tywin said he wanted Shae found and brought to the Tower. If Tyrion was in the room then, or he suspected she might be there, I could see him wanting to be certain whether or not his worst fears were real - that Shae was in cahoots with his horrible father.

 

I dunno, came to me while reading Pallas' post and I suddenly thought, "Oh! He wasn't necessarily coming for Tywin, he might have been coming to see if Shae was in need of rescuing or something..."  I'm probably wrong about this, but it was a spitball that I needed to cough out.

[abelard]

I really hope that Varys and Tyrion go to Dany's court.  She could really use them both.  As I think shimpy pointed out a while back and maybe on another thread, Jorah was really Dany's Hand.  She really could use more middle management right about now.  Tyrion has been a Hand before and a good one - not that Dany would know that, but she (like Tyrion) has a soft spot for bastards and broken things, and Tyrion could win her sympathy and then eventually, her respect.  Varys is a trickier prospect for Dany.  He hates magic and she is pretty much made of magic.  He also tried to have her killed when he was running Jorah as a double agent.  I wonder if Ser Barristan had any mention of Varys in the missive he got from Tywin "outing" Varys.  Anyway, yeah, I think Vary is the harder sell to Dany, for sure.  But I would love to see them both with her team, I think story-wise, that has the most payoff.

[Pallas]

For now, Tyrion and Varys are headed to Braavos, I believe.  That's what I hear Jaime mutter to Tyrion as they leave the cell: "galley/Braavos/harbor."  

 

Tyrion was more recently Master of Coin.  I could see his encouraging the Braavosi bankers to call in their loans.  But after that, to Dany's court (I hope) as we discussed earlier in the Quarter-man thread. I don't see Varys coming with him there.

 

At some point around the wedding/murder, someone told Tywin about Shae, and told them to find her and lock her in the Tower.

 

That was Cersei to Tywin at the wedding breakfast (that Olenna did not attend -- a lot on your plate that morning, Olenna?).  Tywin told Cersei to have Shae brought to the Tower of the Hand. Tyrion, once again at the far end of the table with Sansa, did not overhear.   

 

I don't think he'd go looking for Shae in his father's chambers.  I think Tyrion was a lot more dumbfounded to find Shae in Tywin's bed than Tywin was to find Tyrion outside the door of  his privy.

 

And god damn all the old gods and new -- Tywin's self-possession when Tyrion surprised him there, and Charles Dance's masterful, equable delivery of his greeting: "Tyrion."  Another one-word wonder.  

Edited June 17, 2014 by Pallas

[WhiteStumbler]

I want Varys and Tyrion to sail for the Summer Isles, where Tyrion can build a shrine to the God of Tits and Wine and Varys can do... whatever brings Varys joy.

 

For at least an episode or three, I would like to see a couple of characters safe and relaxed. Tyrion deserves some R+R after the last two seasons, where he spent most of them as a "browbeaten book-keep" and a prisoner. Not likely to happen, but A Stumbler can dream...

 

I agree that Varys + Dany is going to be a very, very hard sell for either of them, but I would love to have Tyrion see a dragon at some point. Again, not likely.

[stillshimpy]

By the by, and apropos of nothing, when Jaime said "_____ is waiting" I had yet another moment of an accent hitting my ear oddly.  Nothing hilarious this time, no Milk of the Puppy, instead I heard "Ferris is waiting!"  turned to my husband and asked, "What, who? Who the fuck is Ferris?"  

 

I seriously thought they were introducing a character named Ferris.  

[gingerella]

Bringing a quote from the season finale thread here to discuss as forward moving speculation...

 

Who could lead the 7K against the Evil Beyond The Wall? Cersei? Mace Tyrell? Tommen? Littlefinger? Balon? Walder F*cking Frey? Maybe Roose Bolton has the intelligence and leadership to be an effective commander in hard times, but (like Stannis) he comes with his own baggage -- Ramsay, and w/o the voice of reason of Ser Davos.

Well, when you put it that way, WS, nobody comes to mind except the coming together of the Night's Watch, Stannis' army, and Mance's army. Period, end of story. There is nobody else, not even Dany, who can lead the peoples South of the Wall to a successful conclusion against the WW invasion other than the above-mentioned triumvirate. Those three entities need to come together and find a way to work harmoniously - to the extent possible given we're talking of Wildlings and Giants and Wooly Mammoths who all live by their own free-wheeling rules - that's the only way I see this coming to a successful conclusion for beingkind in this world. Together, they have the manpower (assuming there are a shitload more of the remaining 100,000-strong army that we've been told Mance has assembled...somewhere else maybe?), plus Stannis' impressive cavalry of awesomeness, if they combine together with what's left of the NW, that's a lot of man/giant/wildling/Thenn-power right there. Jon and the NW bring hundreds of years of duty, honor, and commitment to protecting the Wall at all costs and they're not bad fighters either at this point and they know their Wall, supposedly. Stannis brings Leadership, commitment, honor, strategery, etc. And Mance brings the ability to pull together warring factions and build an army with a shared single purpose - defeat the evil coming towards them now. Nobody in the South adds much to that pot other than Braavos funding the whole operation. People in KL seems lazy and disinterested, very "me" oriented city. Ditto anywhere else we've seen so far.  I don't see any other group of folks that would be able to get the job at The Wall done right now, unless we meet a new person/group soon, that we don't yet know about.

 

So where does Dany and her dragons fit into all of this, given the above? I think she is very, very young and very, very inexperienced. Were it not for her dragons, I don't think she would be where she is right now, and she is already seeing that being the Mother of Dragons comes with its own matched set of special, scaley baggage. I haven't seen anything to show me that Dany is as sage, experienced and deep thinking as Jon Snow, or Stannis, or Mance for that matter. Say what you will about Mance, he did bring together many tribes that fucking hate each other, to fight one common enemy. So there's that ability to bring together diverse peoples. I think Stannis will see that in Mance, and they will come together and figure out a way forward that puts this new triumvirate front and center in the Battle for the Wall, the North, and the 7K in general.

 

One thing I'm wondering though, is if people of the Free Cities, Slavers Bay, Dorne, even the Iron Islanders - have any of them experienced Winter where they are, or is this only for The North? I don't think we've heard people in KL, for example, speaking of Winter Coming, have we?

 

I heard "Ferris is waiting!"  turned to my husband and asked, "What, who? Who the fuck is Ferris?" 

I seriously thought they were introducing a character named Ferris.

A new Book in the series entitled Varys Bueller's Day Off.

 

For now, Tyrion and Varys are headed to Braavos, I believe.  That's what I hear Jaime mutter to Tyrion as they leave the cell: "galley/Braavos/harbor." 

 

Tyrion was more recently Master of Coin.  I could see his encouraging the Braavosi bankers to call in their loans.  But after that, to Dany's court (I hope) as we discussed earlier in the Quarter-man thread. I don't see Varys coming with him there.

I didn't catch that Braavos mention but if so, that's verrrry interesting because it means that Tyrion and Arya will be bumping into each other in Braavos, which piques my interest indeed. No non-Lannister has more vitriol and hatred towards the Lannister clan than Arya Stark right now, and Lannister hates his own family right now more than Tyrion.  So...interesting duo to consider...though I'm not sure what would happen with them. Tyrion would be able to tell Arya that he kept her sister safe until she suddenly disappeared at Joff's wedding. He would probably tell her that he offed Tywin once he realized how much Arya hates his father too. Of course, he could eventually help Arya get to Cersei so Arya can check her off The List, but by that time (I mean by the time Arya is a fully graduated alumni of The University of A Man), I rather think Cersei will have already been killed by her Monster.

 

Though...as I think about the Mountain becoming a Monster, is it possible he kills Tommen - either by accident or on purpose - and Cersei really goes over the edge then? Instead of being killed by her Monster?  I really cannot image why we would have seen that seemingly ridiculous scene with the new creepy Maester and the Mountain, whom we assumed was dead already, unless something really terrible and fantastically awful is coming from that. We all want Cersei dead, like last month already. And yet...and yet, she survives, all the while plummeting deeper into her own mental darkness. Wouldn't it be weird if Cersei ends of living the longest of all the Lannisters?  I mean, by all accounts, someone should have offed her by now, but she remains in place and in power. She just lost her father - and while we don't know the fall out from that, and I had assumed losing Tywin would crush her - seeing how she just told Daddy to basically fuck off, I don't think she'll be sad about it, I think she will see it as Her Moment. She and Jamie can Be Together, tru wub 4evah. They can shack up and who cares who knows. She can puppeteer Tommen on the throne, and who will say otherwise? The person who would have likely spear-headed a rebuff or offered sage wisdom is now sitting next to Imp-In-A-Box, on his way somewhere far, far away. KL is Cersei's playground now...god help the people of KL and the 7K.

 

Oh shit! I just thought of something...what if Tyrion meets up with Arya and he too, enrolls in A Man courses, and becomes able to turn himself into an able-bodied man?!  That? Could be really cool...of course we'd lose Peter Dinklage, whom I adore...but storywise that could be very interesting...it cannot be coincidence if Arya and Tyrion both wind up in Braavos about the same time.  Okay, I'll stop spitballing now.

Edited June 17, 2014 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

By the by, and apropos of nothing, when Jaime said "_____ is waiting" I had yet another moment of an accent hitting my ear oddly.  Nothing hilarious this time, no Milk of the Puppy, instead I heard "Ferris is waiting!"  turned to my husband and asked, "What, who? Who the fuck is Ferris?"  

 

I seriously thought they were introducing a character named Ferris.

You weren't alone, Shimpy, I thought the exact same thing. "Who the F*** is Ferris?" It took me a couple of minutes before I realized he must have meant Varys. >.

[Pallas]

Okay, I'll stop spitballing now.

 

Never stop, gingerella -- that was some inspired riffing.  

 

I'm completely with you on the New Northern Triumverate, which should immediately result in an Open Door Policy. Will there be resistance from any in the Night's Watch?  Perhaps.  I caught Slynt present at the funeral service, and the other survivors (who actually fought) might take it amiss that the battle in which they lost so many comrades, is now declared a false start toward world peace.  But Stannis and his Cavalry of Awesomeness (TM gingerella) seemed to have the loyalty of the Watch, and why wouldn't they.  He responded to their warning, and he bought an army to come to their defense.  An army he led himself.

 

What happens to the WIldling army next?  Does it disband or does it remain intact, up North, when Stannis turns his sights to King's Landing? (I doubt that they would join with Stannis's forces, and I'm not sure Stannis would look for that.)  Do they settle in the northernmost reaches of the land, or do they set out to acquire holdings now in the possession of Roose Bolton?  

 

I can barely stand to think of that sweet boy Tommen's being sacrificed to the Mountain, and I really want Ser Pounce to go pursue some actual rats elsewhere in the capital...but it surely does seem possible that at last, the Lannister horror will turn on his masters. Tommen, Cersei -- Jaime, trying to defend them?  

 

But for now, I think you're right that Cersei will be in ascendance in King's Landing.  My guess is that she has in mind reviving the time-honored Lannister tradition of sending the Mountain as their envoy to women and children, and since Sansa is both...Brienne needs to find her first.  And stick to her like glue, no matter what Uncle Petyr might prefer.

 

I love shimpy's idea that Varys might have Illyrio broker Tyrion's introduction to Dany.  Tyrion Lannister, former Hand to the King, and, Handslayer.  Tyrion Lannister, unsung defender of King's Landing.  Tyrion Lannister, saddlemaker.  A good Imp to have in her camp.  And not only might we see Tyrion meet the dragons -- as I speculated earlier, his cautious reaction might be, "You haven't met my family, Your Grace, but I assure you, they have much in common" -- we might also be treated to his response the first time he's subjected to the august recitation of Dany's gaudy honorifics.  There might not be a second. 

[ChocButterfly]

Why do you guys think it'll be easier for Dany to accept Tyrion rather than Varys? I see it exactly the opposite, Tyrion is a LANNISTER, they killed her father, raped her sil and murdered her nephews. They are as much traitors to her ( if not more) than Baratheons. Why would Dany believe anything Tyrion says? Now Varys wasn't a traitor, he was neutral. Plus he's friends with Illiryo. No one will ever know he conspired to kill Dany. Also, I don't even understand why if he was also conspiring with Illyrio to give her a Dothraki army. He says he hates magic, but he also wants stability and all this shit coming maybe he knows Dany is the only one who can rule the 7 Kingdoms.

 

Also, Ginger, I agree that we'll need the NW, Mance and Stannis to fight the WW, but those won't be enough. I think Dany and her dragons are crucial to defeat the WW. Plus, she has a super big army as well, the best fighters. Maybe, with these 4 forces joined together, plus whatever other army is left in Westeros, they'll have a fighting chance against the WW.

 

If this story were to have a decent ending, Cersei should die after she has seen her children died, after she looses Jaimie and all her power and end up humiliated. Hell, maybe the Mountain will do to her what he did to the Martell princess. And then the Mountain should suffer the same fate as Theon and so should Ramsey.

[stillshimpy]

Why do you guys think it'll be easier for Dany to accept Tyrion rather than Varys? I see it exactly the opposite, Tyrion is a LANNISTER, they killed her father, raped her sil and murdered her nephews.

Because Tyrion killed Tywin Lannister, the man who is at the head of the "They" of the Lannisters, which the only reason Dany might not greet that news favorably is because she wanted to do that herself. He is a Lannister, but he's decidedly the Black Sheep of the Lannisters.

I'm thinking that's going to be a pretty infamous act and word of it will stretch to Mereen, by the way, so that Dany isn't simply taking Tyrions word about the patricide.

Edited June 18, 2014 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

It is hard for me to imagine Varys wanting to get in bed with Dany (figuratively and literally). He hates magic and people believe the birth of her dragons is what has brought magic back.

[Pallas]

And when Varys was urging Shae to get away from the Seven Kingdoms and back home to the East, where she could retire from the intrigue and grow to a ripe old age among her own kind, he seemed pretty smitten with his own imagery.  In what had been his last conversation with Tyrion -- the morning of Joffrey's wedding -- he observed again how, as a foreigner, he would forever be a social pariah in King's Landing.  

 

I think Varys is ready to try a different game.  Not one leagues removed from power, but one where he is closer to the inside.  A eunuch still, but not an alien.  And along with that, I'm not sure he wants to dwell among an army of thousands of similarly maimed men.  

[gingerella]

It is hard for me to imagine Varys wanting to get in bed with Dany (figuratively and literally). He hates magic and people believe the birth of her dragons is what has brought magic back.

The thing is though, that magic was making a comeback before the dragon eggs were even close to being hatched. In the very first episode, we see WWs and unspeakable things...that shit was going down already North of the Wall. The dragon eggs hadnt even been given to Dany at that time. I never got the impression that the dragons themselves are bringing back magic, but rather, magic is resurfacing from being dormant, because with Winter comes WWs and all the evil they bring with them. I also think that magic is resurfacing because the right players have been born at the right time - Dany, Bran, Jojen, The Children, the Witch from Dothrak, Mel - these are some of the practitioners right now. But others who dont practice magic must also believe in it for it to strike fear in them. For that we have Jon Snow, Sam, Gilly, Mance and his followers, Mr. & Mrs. Stannis Baratheon, Varys - these folks and others, BELIEVE in the magic, at least the bad mojo kind, and are telling others about it now. Sure, they look crazy...until you see a WW, then you're a believer pretty damn quick!

ETA: While Varys hates magic and with good reason, I dont think he would be opposed to it once he really understands what is coming down the road and what is at stake. I think with Varys it will be a matter of separating magic for evil purposes (which is his personal experience with magic) vs. magic for good purposes, which I think is what Dany would try to do with her dragons, assuming they live and dont die in the catacombs.

Edited June 18, 2014 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

I think Varys is ready to try a different game. Not one leagues removed from power, but one where he is closer to the inside.

It's a good point that Varys hates magic. I guess I was viewing the dragons as simply a return of something once gone, vs. purely magical, but that may not be how Varys would see it.

But I wonder what being in power would look like and where someone like Varys might accomplish that? He did seem to indicate to Oberyn (with the glance at the Throne) that his desire was for ruling, or power of some sort.

I don't know, I guess part of it is that I can't think what would become of either of them without a lot of protection. They'd both be highly recognizable. At a guess Cersei is likely to offer a substantial reward for either of them. It seems like they'd need to get somewhere safe.

Wherever the heck that might be in the 7k.

[gingerella]

maybe Varys could be put in charge of one of the cities that Dany has "freed", to rule in her name perhaps? Varys always seemed to me like he would be a fair and decent ruler, and yet, we all know that saying, "absolute power corrupts, absolutely...", so...maybe not...

[Pallas]

I don't know, I guess part of it is that I can't think what would become of either of them without a lot of protection. They'd both be highly recognizable. At a guess Cersei is likely to offer a substantial reward for either of them. It seems like they'd need to get somewhere safe.

 

Wherever the heck that might be in the 7k. -- stillshimpy

 

Out of the 7K, then: one of the Free Cities or Essos, with Dany.  As we've seen, assassins dispatched from the 7K can make their way into those places as well, but as we've also seen, such assassins find work as comic relief the moment they cross the border.  Their bows go BOING!  Their daggers droop.  Their poisons transmute into love potions.  It's as if every nuance of their spycraft were devised by Jon Arryn.    

 

Tyrion and (to a lesser degree) Varys are indeed recognizable by bounty hunters and would-be assassins anywhere.  But the man Cersei would have wanted to have targeting Varys is Varys himself, and the other minister she knows with a ready network was last seen (killing Joffrey and) making himself scarce in the Vale (with the alleged perpetrator, Sansa).  The King's Guard Commander who does recognize an assassination attempt when he sees one -- Ser Barristan of the Cloak -- stands at Dany's side.  Varys probably still has more covert confederates within striking distance of Cersei than she could hope to muster abroad.  And Cersei is likely soon to by distracted by Stannis, the original "someone awful" whose last attack on the capital was repulsed jointly by her late father, her rejected fiance and her fugitive brother.  

 

And who knows -- Cersei may prove herself her father's child by accepting the blessings Tyrion has handed her, and getting down to business from her seat as Queen Regent, regnant, on the Iron Throne.  When it comes to Varys, she may argue circumspection while really indulging her faint dread of him.  When it comes to Tyrion, she may decide that she has bigger fish to fry.  

[arry the orphan]

And Cersei is likely soon to by distracted by Stannis, the original "someone awful" whose last attack on the capital was repulsed jointly by her late father, her rejected fiance and her fugitive brother.

 

Funnily Stannis just decided to give up his plan to take KL and send his entire hired army to the Wall. If he wants to ride down on the road to Kings Landing he first has to deal with Lord Bolton. Or he could return to the coast, load up his army and horses on his ships and sail South again. Anyway I doubt that Stannis will pose any threat to Cersei for at least one season. Especially as he decided to bring his wife and daughter to the Wall as well. So I think he wants to stay there and wait for the White Walkers.

 

The situation in KL will be going downhill quickly (even without Stannis)

 

King Tommens council:

Queen Regent: Cersei Lannister - his mother; no longer cares if the realm knows that the King is an incest bastard, oh and she hates his bride-to-be Margary

Commander of the Kingsguard: Jaime Lannister - his father, has never shown any interest in ruling, has only one hand and seems to become slightly obsessed with his legacy (that could actually be a good thing, as his oath to Brienne has shown), still he is even more obsessed with Tommens mother (his sister), freed Tyrion right before killed his father

Master of Ships: Lord Tyrell - father of the future Queen Margary, considered completely incompetent, although he is now the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms (gold and army)

 

Grandmaester Pycelle: seems to get replaced by Dr. Mengele

 

Hand of the King: Tywin Lannister - dead at the hands of his own son

Master of Coin: Tyrion Lannister - on the run - killed the Hand of the King and found guilty for killing the former King

Spymaster: Varys - decided to leave KL, because he realized that things are going to get really ugly, helped Tyrion escape

Oberyn Martell: killed by the Mountain, and Cersei so wisely decided to save the Mountains life. Dorne won't be happy about that.

 

Edited June 18, 2014 by arry the orphan

[stillshimpy]

It's as if every nuance of their spycraft were devised by Jon Arryn. -Pallas

Snerk. Yup, Jon Arryn's school of Super Assassins: Take at least ten years to twig to the truth of the matter, then be very obvious and clumsy while pursuing any resolution.

 

When it comes to Tyrion, she may decide that she has bigger fish to fry. - Pallas

I suppose it's possible that Jaime will convince her to see reason -- or have the freaking wits to get about blaming Papa since no one makes a better patsy than a dead schemer -- that Tyrion did not, in fact, kill Joffrey. Until then, I doubt Cersei will give a damn that Tywin is dead on any emotional level, but she thinks Tyrion killed Joffrey aka "my darling boy"...so yeah. They need to hide and hide well, or get somewhere they can hire the hell out of really good guards.

I found myself hoping Varys had time to nip back into town to grab a few sacks of diamond, but barring that, he likely has the wits to have had some stashed somewhere in case this ever became necessary.

Edited June 18, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Queen Regent: Cersei Lannister - his mother; no longer cares if the realm knows that the King is an incest bastard, oh and she hates his bride-to-be Margary

Commander of the Kingsguard: Jaime Lannister - his father, has never shown any interest in ruling, has only one hand and seems to become slightly obsessed with his legacy (that could actually be a good thing, as his oath to Brienne has shown), still he is even more obsessed with Tommens mother (his sister), freed Tyrion right before killed his father -- arry the orphan

 

 

Great run-down of The Best and the Brightest of the Seven Kingdoms, arry.  I loved your reference to our seeing Jaime once again pondering the biography of King's Guardsmen Great and Small.  We know Jaime's not usually one to hoist up a tome to while away the afternoon, especially the dark hours before his brother's execution by his sister and father.  Tywin's rants about legacy have left a dent -- Jaime breathes that hot air. 

 

I wonder though if Cersei will still follow through on her defiant gambit of exposing their incest.  There's no need now.  No advantage to her.  She can summarily break the betrothals with both Tyrells, if she's otherwise brazen enough to conclude that she can live without the alliance.  Or -- since Olenna, anyway, was no champion of the Loras betrothal -- she can try to make some other barter.

 

Cersei is so convincingly contradictory.  On the one hand, her wise words to Joffrey about how he must make nice with the Starks in order to hold the North.  On the other hand, her nasty streak and political perversity.  I'm not sure Cersei has retained the perspective, or ever been allowed the practical experience, to see where even at the pinnacle of power, she must still at times bed down with her enemies.  Her "anyone but us."    

 

Oh, bloody hell...It occurs to me that only now might Cersei be willing to enter into marriage with Loras.  There would be no question about her leaving the capital, her being seen off in garlanded disgrace from King's Landing to High Garden.  In her mind, anyway, there would be no question about who rules whom.  She could make Loras her Cersei Baratheon.  She could wed him, refuse to or capriciously bed him, and cut him daily.  Cersei needs a target more than she needs a lover: she needs a blame-bucket, and who better than a husband?  A consort.  If money's such a concern, she can spare the Treasury the expense of a whipping boy.

 

But on the issue of the incest: however Cersei decides to play her hand, she no longer has a motive to expose it.  Especially since her primary motivation -- hurting those she blames for her unhappiness -- is now moot.  She struck at Tywin with it, and took her savage satisfaction there.  She confounded Jaime with it, and regained his soul-sickened devotion.  His heart but not his hand: he still freed Tyrion, and must have been prepared to take on her and Tywin's scorn as well as their anger.  

 

shimpy is probably right that Tywin was most concerned with forever getting Tyrion out of his sight -- and the sight of anyone that Tywin considered of any account, any man whose gaze would ever lift from the Imp to his father the Lion.  Not Cersei, though, as shimpy also pointed out.  Cersei's hatred of Tyrion is for different reasons and embedded in her loins. He killed her mother and he despised her son: despised, exposed and humiliated Joffrey for what she knew him to be, as well.  

 

If Cersei wants to punish Jaime for that, she can and will.  Marrying Loras by her own choice might do nicely.  More importantly, Cersei no longer has such need of Jaime or their affair to act however she likes.  Time and again we see Jaime almost grasp it, it appears.  We see him almost fray away.  But to see a thing is not to accept it.  To be torn is not to be whole.

 

Jaime may have been emboldened to free Tyrion in part because he felt, Well -- and at least, at last, I have Cersei's love and her willingness to publicly defy the gods, our father and mankind, for me.  But I think it's possible that now, Cersei will once again reject Jaime, whether or not to marry Loras.  And maybe that will be Jaime's true turning point, his Tyrion's trial.  

 

 

[90PercentGravity]

I never got the impression that the dragons themselves are bringing back magic, but rather, magic is resurfacing from being dormant, because with Winter comes WWs and all the evil they bring with them.

Right. I'm not saying that the dragons are bringing the magic back, just that people are saying they are and Varys might believe it as well.

[stillshimpy]

just that people are saying they are and Varys might believe it as well.

I think you're right that Varys might associate the reappearance of dragons within the world with more magic (or hey, it's the fantasy genre so "magicks" seems likely, but I always feel peculiar spelling it that way so I won't) ...but he does know that magic was in the world long before Dany's dragons were hatched.

He talked about the sorcerer speaking to the disembodied voice within the flame, so he is aware that magic predates the dragons.

From the way Cersei et al talked about the dragons, it doesn't seem as if they are being greeted as evidence of magical doings. Tywin called them something like sideshow attractions, Cersei scoffed at their size. In fact, everyone in King's Landing had a really, "Pffft. Dragons...size of cats, I'll set the dogs on them..." kind of reaction, which honestly surprised the hell out of me.

I thought they'd practically pee at the thought of a Targaryen with dragons, but then I guess they have no reason to believe that Dany's dragons aren't going to be like the last dragons hatched (small and weak, according to what Viserys told the girl in the bathtub).

I personally think that whereas it came as a honkin' big surprise to me and a lot of the audience, that it was actually known in that land that certain Targaryens were immune to fire. Seems like Aerys "Burn 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out" Targaryen aka The Mad King, must have been. Only people pretty confident of not being burned seem likely to be that hot on burning other folks.

Edited June 18, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Only people pretty confident of not being burned seem likely to be that hot on burning other folks.

 

Aerys ordered "Burn them all," not "Burn us all."  He's the King and he could expect that people would pay attention.  

 

Other people hot on apocalyptic fire include some madmen or mystics or despots, especially in the face of imminent defeat. And probably a plurality of mad mystical despots on a losing streak.  Throw in, "Thinks he's only on his first life but that you and his many enemies will all die, horribly, for good," and pyromania is practically a statistical inevitability.    

 

But really, it's not known.  Dany is fireproof; Dany melded that trait with some Essosian black magic and midwifed three vibrant dragons from petrified eggs.  So far, this seems unique: no one in Essos or Westeros has spoken of other flame-proof Targareyns, royal or not, nor of dragons hatched by humans.  We know that some Targ royals were called Dragons (but were human) and some Targ rulers thought they'd be reincarnated as dragons (but were not -- the kind of story even Tywin smiled to tell, if only inwardly).  For dragon-riders, fire-proofing would be an occupational hazard equalizer, but so would fang-proofing, seat-belting or parachuting.  

 

Maybe LightMeUp!Dany is unique, or the first of her kind: like Brandon Stark, the warger of humans, a worlds-length away.  Maybe Dany, Bran, and even the more dubious sorcerers like Melisandre, Qyburn and Thoros are all one-offs, mutants, generated by historical necessity to balance the eruption of arctic magic. Maybe the dragons are, too. 

    

[stillshimpy]

Pallas, I doubt Dany's ability to withstand flame is singular, or previously unknown. "Fire cannot harm a Dragon" when she had gold poured on Visery's head. We've talked about this before and fairly recently. It's unlikely that Dany and everyone else thought that a Targ being "a Dragon" was about leadership ability and Aerys wasn't just keen on burning them all, he was storing up wildfire in the city.

Again, Dany's "Fire cannot harm a Dragon" seems more likely to come under the "stuff Dany knew already". Some Targs were "dragons" (Rhaegar was believed to be the last, according to Dany) some were not.

Edited June 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abcfsk]

Again, Dany's "Fire cannot disarm a Dragon" seems more likely to come under the "stuff Dany knew already".  

 

I think disarming a dragon was exactly  what Dany was trying to do in this last episode ;)

[stillshimpy]

Hee, fixed.

Sadly, I don't think that was autocorrect at play, just my brain swapping out words. "Disarm" for "Harm". Bodes well for my old age, I'm sure.

It will lead to things like real-live versions of that Sprint commercial. We'll end up with a Herd of 200 Dachshunds. Stampede!

Edited June 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

If there had been fireproof Targaryans before, I'm sure they would be a legend and the show would have mentioned it by now. Also, if more Targaryans had been fire proof, Dany wouldn't be called the "Unburnt" and it wouldn't had been such a big deal when she went into that fire.

 

When Dany said that line about her brother not being a true Dragon because he burnt, was just Dany being cocky and on her crazy streak. There hasn't been anyone else impervious to fire before, or we would have heard about by now. The only thing we have heard about Targaryans thinking they are real dragons is that story Joffrey was telling Marge, and the stupid Targ died burnt, if I recall correctly.

[Llywela]

I always thought that it was legend, something dimly remembered but not really believed - like, people knew that dragons existed at one time, because they had dragon skeletons, but the notion of fireproof people had passed into hearsay, like the White Walkers and Children of the Forest and whatever else that stuff was that Old Nan used to tell Bran. Just a story, so long forgotten that no one even remembers it, or cares enough to repeat. Except Dany, to whom it would be relevant so she'd pay more attention - I'd assumed she'd heard some whisper of a story, and remembered it and thought about it a lot because it brought her comfort, this legend of the family she never knew, but only realised it was real when she discovered her own heat/flame tolerance.

[stillshimpy]

If there had been fireproof Targaryans before, I'm sure they would be a legend and the show would have mentioned it by now.

I don't think that follows, Choc.  If it is an accepted fact about certain Targaryens and has been known for many hundreds of years, then it becomes wholly unremarkable.  It is known and therefore not worthy of marveling about it.  

To me it only makes sense that being fireproof was part of being a Targ Dragon and making one Targ standing out from another Targ as a Dragon.  It would also explain how they had the dragons under their control to conquer the Seven Kingdoms in the first place.  To tame and wrangle actual dragons, it would really help to be fireproof and might even be essential. 

 

I know Jorah nearly fell the hell over, but Jorah didn't actually believe in dragons (the reptilian variety)....which was frankly weird, since we'd seen a giant skull from one in the catacombs when Varys met with Ilyrio.  Jorah "I believe the evidence of my own eyes, Princess" being surprised only means he might have known it, but until he sees it, he doesn't believe it. 

 

But yes, to tame, control and conquer with dragons, it makes more sense that the Targ Dragons were fireproof.  Frankly, it seems like it would be talked about a whole lot more if Dany was the first.  Whispers of "Holy fuck, I heard that flame cannot even harm her!!"  rather than the blase "Eh, so?  She's got dragons.  She can join a carnival.  *yawn*"   She's announced as "the unburnt" along with all her other "Storms! House! Here she comes!" fanfare, so it's not a secret. 

Edited June 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[izabella]

I believe it is known that some Targs are fireproof.  Otherwise, it wouldn't have been so widely accepted that the Targs were incestuous and married each other.  It is known.

[stillshimpy]

I believe it is known that some Targs are fireproof.  Otherwise, it wouldn't have been so widely accepted that the Targs were incestuous and married each other.  It is known. - izabella

 

Yeah, that's the other part I didn't mention.  Cersei in the garden with Ned saying, "The Targaryens married sister to brother for hundreds of years..."  and that would be for some reason, presumably to up the chances of being Teflon Targs. 

 

I think that there's a difference between something being saved as a surprise to the audience "Holy shit!! Dany just emerged from the ashes like a Phoenix! She's Fireproof?? Were there any clues??"  Actually, yes, from her very first scene when the slaves tell her the bath is too hot and she'll be burned.  It's discussed that Viserys is no Dragon and that Rhaegar Targaryen (who would have been the Crown Prince) was the last of the Dragons.  

 

I've always sort of wondered if the Dragon thing doesn't manifest until the onset of puberty, because right before the Unscalded Dany, Viserys a)gropes her, because he's disgusting like that b) comments that "you're a woman now" and it seemed like Dany ran a few tests to see if she was fireproof and concluded "I'm totally fireproof!"  because she knew before walking into that bonfire what would happen. 

 

So yeah, I do think that was meant to gobsmack the audience, but was something known to the participants in the story, again based on the "Wow, they never talk about as being remarkable on any level....and they call her the Unburnt..." so between that and only Targs being able to control dragons?  I'm guessing that's what being a Dragon was about.  The fireproof Targs were the only people who could manage the dragons, because they were Dragons. 

 

I'm still far more "What? Huh? How?  How did they do that???"  about Dorne being able to resist, or repell and something the Targaryen invasion in the first damned place.   

[WhiteStumbler]

All of this has me thinking about the dragons. I feel frustrated by the fact that Dany has taken ZERO steps in the story to domesticate the dragonlings in any way (other than teaching them "dracarys"). How does she expect to conquer anything with them (other than a pasture of mutton) if there isn't some 'command and control' training? And that doesn't even approach the logistics of riding them! It would seem that the time to do this is when they are young and more pliable.

 

Now Dany is really screwed -- she is locking the two 'innocent' ones in a dark crypt for the crimes of their guilty sibling Drogon (a nice combo of "dragon" and "Drogo"). (ETA: Pallas made the same point earlier in the E10 thread. *dips banner to Pallas*) Those two are going to need years of Cognitive Behavioral Dragontherapy to get over the Mommy / abandonment issues her decision will create. I was going to make a joke about the dragons huddling behind a pyramid to sneak cigarettes and pilfered wine, but there is no tobacco in this world (that we have seen). Have we seen any New World crops? Huh.

 

Maladjusted WMDs. Great plan, Daenerys.

Edited June 19, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[90PercentGravity]

People who were MIA this entire season, per my memory, which is admittedly horrible:

Blackfish

Edmure Tully

Rickon

Osha

Shaggydog

Gendry

Balon Greyjoy

Jaquan Hagar

Lancel

Entire Brotherhood without Banners

Myracella

Benjen Stark

Illyrio (?)

Walder Frey, actually, all the Freys(?)

Nymeria

 

People who disappeared mid-season and whose stories are still open:

Jorah Mormont

Ellaria Sand

Daario Naharis

Yara Greyjoy

 

People who were not in the last two or three episodes but whose arcs were relatively complete for the season, so I don't really consider them "missing" per se:

Sansa Stark

Peter Baelish

Ramsey Snow-Bolton

Roose Bolton

Margaery Tyrell

Olenna Tyrell

Mace Tyrell

Loras Tyrell

[gingerella]

Actually, I'm not clear on the Tyrells...Yes, Olenna did say she wanted to go back to Highgarden, but where is Loras? Have we seen him in person this season? I can't remember even seeing him at the wedding.  And Mace? Was he just there on the trial committee or is he now permanently in KL as "advisor"? I can't see Cersei putting up with him much, he's rather a dolt, unlike his razor sharp mother, Olenna. And poor Marge. First hubby she seemed to be attracted to but he wanted to dip his royal stick into her brother. Then she gets hitched to a psycho who's murdered during their wedding feast. THEN she gets betrothed immediately to said-psycho's little baby brother whose idea of getting some evening pussy involves sleeping with an actual cat in his bed.  Poor Marge. She's a gold digger with a whole lot of bad karma!

[90PercentGravity]

Loras was at the wedding. He had that great jab at Jaime when Jaime said Loras would never marry Cersai Loras said "neither will you."

[DirewolfPup]

We did meet Bolton's wife who is a Frey, though I suppose not anymore.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah and apparently Roose Bolton pretty much pitched any plans of making a Bolton/Frey baby, heir to it all, by legitimizing Ramsay as his heir.  

 

I wonder if that speaks to his wedded bliss?  

[gingerella]

Yeah and apparently Roose Bolton pretty much pitched any plans of making a Bolton/Frey baby, heir to it all, by legitimizing Ramsay as his heir.  

 

I wonder if that speaks to his wedded bliss?  

You say that like it's a bad thing shimp! It could be that Walder Fuckhead Frey decides to take out crazy psycho Ramsey to force Roose to knock up his plump daughter for a proper Bolton/Frey heir...you gotta think of the bright side here! ;) Hey, maybe Walder and both Boltons get to fighting and kill each other. That'd be fine and dandy with me. I hate those three freak shows.

[abelard]

I'm not sure that Ramsay Bolton's legal recognition Roose's son means he is Roose's heir.

 

On the other hand, I think it's likely that Roose only married the Frey daughter to get the gold dragons that came with her.  He may have zero intention of fulfilling his marital duties or producing an heir with her.  

[izabella]

Loras was at the wedding. He had that great jab at Jaime when Jaime said Loras would never marry Cersai Loras said "neither will you."

 

Such a great line!  So much has changed since then.

 

I think the last we saw of Loras, he was leaving the wedding reception in disgust during the dwarf re-enactment of the War of the Five Kings.  I don't recall seeing him after that.

[Pallas]

Taking any further thoughts about Dany and upper-case Dragons to her thread, anon.  Meanwhile!  

 

I'm still far more "What? Huh? How?  How did they do that???"  about Dorne being able to resist, or repell and something the Targaryen invasion in the first damned place. -- stillshimpy

 

Me too.  The word was "resist," so that could also mean via negotiation rather than combat.  Then again.  If Oberyn is anyone to measure by -- and he's all that, and more -- probably combat.   In the end, though, they did join the new unified kingdom, while retaining their titles. (Somewhat like the Princely States in India, which maintained a notional autonomy during British rule -- while individual states and princes were alternately propped up or coerced by the British -- and then at independence joined either India or Pakistan.)  How and how long did they resist, and why and how far did they accede?  What besides Dany resists fire or repels dragons, and is there any more of it?  

 

A kind of anti-wildfire?  A colossal scarecrow?  Well, so, a massive reflecting object -- almost like the "lens" in the opening credits? Did the Dornish poison the poor beasts, or dance them to death?  Poetry-slam them to the ground -- or maybe, enchant them, as Oberyn did us?  

 

All of this has me thinking about the dragons. I feel frustrated by the fact that Dany has taken ZERO steps in the story to domesticate the dragonlings in any way (other than teaching them "dracarys"). -- WhiteStumbler

 

I think Dany had been content to rely on her psychic connection with the dragons -- content to savor it, too.  To her, their connection must have seemed her least complicated yet most intimate relation.  Why look for trouble, or create it?  Since they had never before harmed people except by her command, and it seems only Drogon had begun to roam, she allowed herself some unconcern.  We don't know who mothered her or how; if Vercerys, she was probably raised like an exotic pet on some days, and a prize heifer on others.  Probably not all that differently from many other high-born Westerosi girls, just more so and with no other influence. She may not have a clue about how anyone goes about raising human children, let alone extinct dragons.  

 

She'd better get one.  No, get several.  From whom from where?  Did the Targeryns have their own schools of dragonery; did they inscribe these lessons?  If so, are the books still extant, somewhere in the East?  Is there an Alexandria Library of Essos?  Or perhaps horsemen -- Dothraki or others -- whose techniques were, over time, adapted from dragonry to horsemanship, but whose lessons still reflect the arcane lore?  Still, one enormous and germane difference is that while horses are prey animals, dragons are predators -- raptors, in fact.  The day-to-day husbandry practices would be quite different.  So would the riding techniques, given the relative size, shape and nature of the creatures.  

 

Bran is a warg, and Bran will fly: we not only heard it, we saw it, in his dream.  The Mother of Dragons needs to look beyond home schooling. Maybe a warg, maybe a something else...I think we can anticipate an intriguing new character.

[WhiteStumbler]

They haven't shown any psychic connection yet. If there is one they need to demonstrate it soon. They are protective of her and enjoy her company, but I haven't seen much else besides that.

If Bran flies a dragon at some point, Tyrion could design the saddle!

[Pallas]

They haven't shown any psychic connection yet.

 

Dany in the tower of the wizard, with the imprisoned dragons?  I had the impression she was communicating with them -- giving them her plan -- before she said "Dracarys," and they did their thing.  She had a...serene intensity about her as she looked at them and they at her, that suggested that.  To me, it seemed more that she was giving them a cue she had informed them of, than that she was voicing a command. The dragons seemed to know it was coming.  

 

On the other hand, it's true she did spend some time that season musing, "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?"   So the connection isn't an exact art; it's not warging. Communication that may include or border on telepathy. 

[Anothermi]

Thought provoking post, Pallas, from Dorne to dragons.  

 

I am with you and shimpy wondering how Dorne "resisted" the Targaryens & their dragons.  We know (via one of Tywin's talks with Arya) that the, then, Lord of Harrenhal thought that they could resist and have seen the devastation the dragons wrought there. Given that, I kind of assumed it would have had to be a combination of tactics and diplomacy. 

 

I wrote elsewhere about the animal/human spirit connection as it related to wargs and Starks.  We have definitely been shown that the Starks have that with their Direwolves.  It's harder with Dany because she had three dragons and no template for training.  It seemed to be as much as she could manage to just figure out how to feed them and teach them to cook their own food.  So my personal jury is still out on whether Dany has a psychic connection with her dragons or not.

 

What your post did make me think of is that we have Drogon who is AWOL and Nymeria whose whereabouts is unknown (It Is UnKnown!).  If Drogon (who did seem to be Dany's favourite until he went rogue) is more Dany's spirit-animal or familiar if you will,  then there are now two such creatures wandering the story without the connection they are supposed to have.  That could be a plot line in itself (but probably won't be) that I'd be interested in. 

 

 

[izabella]

Dany in the tower of the wizard, with the imprisoned dragons?  I had the impression she was communicating with them -- giving them her plan -- before she said "Dracarys," and they did their thing. She had a...serene intensity about her as she looked at them and they at her, that suggested that.  To me, it seemed more that she was giving them a cue she had informed them of, than that she was voicing a command. The dragons seemed to know it was coming.

 

I always wondered about that.  How did the dragons know that Dracarys meant let loose with your fire breathing powers?  How did Dany know they would respond to that word the way she wanted? 

 

And if Dany knew that, then why doesn't she know anything else about communicating with the dragons?

 

Dany needs an Old Nan or a Maester or someone to tell her how to control the dragons.  Maybe Maester Aemon at the Wall could help her with that.

Edited June 20, 2014 by izabella

[90PercentGravity]

I can't get this idea out of my head that Tommen is Simba, the future king with a tiny roar about to fall under the influence of the wrong folks. Maybe he will run away and find his own Pumba and Timon (Varys and Tyrion?).

[Llywela]

Here's a thought. We saw Arya and the Hound arrive at the gates of the Eyrie and announce that Arya was Lysa Arryn's niece come to find shelter with her aunt, or words to that effect. They definitely said that Arya was Lysa's niece, and the guard offered his condolences when he told them Lysa was dead - and he didn't sound sarcastic. Wouldn't you expect him to mention to his superior that he had a girl show up claiming to be Lady Arryn's niece (seems like a fairly significant event that would warrant mentioning), and for that news to filter back to Littlefinger? He'd kick himself if it did - to come so close to having both Stark girls in his custody.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Llywela

[AlphaLine]

I took that as comic relief pretty much 'Why can't your family stop dying before I can sell you' . Don't read too much into it, the dudes at the gate are probably stupid. Besides, Littlefinger doesn't care about Arya ( we saw that at Harrenhal ). Presumably because he can't hump her.

 

Does anyone else think that Dorne's so called 'Anti dragon tactics' are so much hot air? After all, Dorne is still part of the seven kingdoms. They were presumably conquered by the Targaryn kings at some point. There's no noticeable independence movement there, otherwise they would have declared independence at the same time as Robb and Balon Greyjoy did ( and they had every reason to ). And House Martell is making marriage alliances with the Iron throne. Just doesn't seem like Dorne was independent for very long. My guess is that the Dornish managed to take down a dragon ( lucky arrow shot or something ), and that stalled the invasion for a while ( but they were later conquered anyway ), and from there the legends of 'anti dragon tactics' persist to this day.

 

By the way- The Tyrells are another house that doesn't care for this 'independence' thing either. They made marriage alliances with first a Baratheon king and then with a 'Baratheon' ( Lannister ) king. I do hope we see more of them, they kinda disappeared halfway into the season.

 

More musings on Oberyn and the Dornish in general..

 

I don't know, if Elaria is married to Oberyn or not. It isn't very clear. Oberyn has 8 daughters ( and presumably some sons too ). Now I can perfectly imagine that a dude who likes sex that much would have so many kids, but I'm pretty sure they would be on multiple mothers. But atleast a few would be Elaria's too.

So we have a married man and his wife ( or a married man cheating on his wife openly with a mistress ), with kids, members of a royal aristocracy, and they live in a whore house and engage in orgies round the clock. Can anyone else see what's wrong with that?

 

Men having extra marital sex is problematic anyway, but when you have women doing that too, then how do you know who is a bastard and who isn't. There are no paternity/DNA tests in Westeros. This creates any number of inheritance problems. Can a society be that way? Worse still are the marriage alliances with other houses. Are we really to imagine that Myrcella is engaging in brothel orgies in Dorne and shouldn't Cersie be a little concerned about that? Or Elia Martell would have been into brothel orgies before or even ( God help us ) after being married to Prince Rhaeygar Targaryn?

 

Baloney. The notion that all Dornish are bisexual swingers is not believable on any level.

The only plausible explanation is that Oberyn and Elaria are kind of crazy, even by Dornish standards. And to be fair Oberyn is kind of crazy in other ways too.

 

I look forward to seeing more of Dorne ( or Dornish characters in King's Landing ), and have the situation clarified.

On the other hand if Dornish continue to be T & A plot devices, I don't think I can take them seriously.