Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[DemosthenesKey]

Stillest of shimpys, I fear I must respond to your comment with this small squeak - speaking, in certain circumstances, can be very brave indeed. I might even dare say it can be heroic. c:

[WhiteStumbler]

S1Ep9 (Baelor):

Maester Aemon: The gods were cruel when they saw fit to test my vows. They waited till I was old. What could I do when the ravens brought news from the South? The ruin of my House, the death of my family? I was helpless, blind, frail. But, when I heard they had killed my brother's son, and his poor son, and the children, even the little children!
Jon Snow: Who are you?
MA: My father was Mihkah, the First of His Name. My brother Aegon reigned after him, when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called the Mad King.
JS: You're Aemon Targaryen.
MA: I am a maester of the Citadel, bound in service to Castle Black and the Night's Watch. I will not tell you to stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it for the rest of your days. As I have.

[MrMicrophone]

White, 

you definitely have his father's name wrong. Maekor  (I think) was the actual name. Someone check with the Subtitles!

Edited May 23, 2014 by MrMicrophone

[stillshimpy]

Stillest of shimpys, I fear I must respond to your comment with this small squeak - speaking, in certain circumstances, can be very brave indeed. I might even dare say it can be heroic. c:

 

Very true, but in that instance that applied more so to Sansa, not The Hound, seeing as she's the person who had the guts to speak up in the first place.  Providing backup is not the same thing as leading the charge. 

[gingerella]

Stillest of shimpys, I fear I must respond to your comment with this small squeak - speaking, in certain circumstances, can be very brave indeed. I might even dare say it can be heroic. c:

Very true, but in that instance that applied more so to Sansa, not The Hound, seeing as she's the person who had the guts to speak up in the first place.  Providing backup is not the same thing as leading the charge. 

I must agree with the first poster that while yes, Sansa's courage was speaking up first, often, without the "first follower", change never can never take place, and without The Hound speaking up and supporting Sansa's comment, Joffs would have likely just killed the poor bastard anyway since he had no respect for Sansa.  Quite frankly, I have been the "speaker upper" in many professional circumstances where I thought I was speaking for "us", and then "us" just moved into the shadows and did not support me publicly, and no change occurred as a result.

[ChocButterfly]

C'mon, we can't really believe Sansa is falling for Littlefinger? I mean, she can't be that stupid!! On the other hand, she handled Robyn horribly!! She should've known better and learn how to manipulate the little brat.

 

I knew Littlefinger would eventually kill Lysa, I just didn't think it'd be so soon.

 

I love Inigo Martell! And that's why I fear for him :(.  I do think he's going to kill the Mountain. Speaking of which, is this going to be a drinking game now, take a shot every time they change the actor?

 

So, we have confirmation now that Danarys is sleeping with Darioh? Good for her! At least she's having fun. Although I hope she's not stupid enough to fall for him

[gingerella]

Chocofly (is it okay that I shortened your name out of sheer laziness?), I dont think Sansa knows Robin is batshit craycray, didnt she mention when she first met Lysa that her mother had spoken of her often or some such rubbish, but it seemed like she had never met Lysa or Robin, so she wouldnt know of Robin's predelictions of teen breastfeeding, and irrational flying games.

As for Sansa falling in love with LF...hoo boy, that is unclear. The GoT's Magic 8 Ball says, "try again later"...The thing is, I can see both sides here. I can see her buying into the fact that it appears that LF has saved her and protected her from evil, crazy Lysa, etc. But...yeah, she ought to know better by now, though at the end of the day, If Robin doesnt get offed, I can see hom killing LF because Sansa tells him LF is hurting her, or something like that. Just a hunch right now. The big question for me in this is will LF deflower her before this plays out, or will Sansa be rescued, either by Robin's propensity for irrational behavior, or by Brienne and Pod (the latter option would make me super excited).

ETA: Regarding The Hound and his speaking up to support Sansa..l just thought about it and really, these moments we have seen of him protecting Sansa (pulling her back from killing Joffs and herself, rescuing her from the rapey alley gang, offering to take her back to Winterfell, etc.) and his moments with Arya (protecting her from those Lannister soldiers or whoever they were, showing her now to put the dying farmer out of his misery, opening up about his miserable childhood to Arya while she is tending to his wound, etc.) - these moments are the softer side of The Hound, and for someone who is as damaged as he is, I reckon this is about as warm and fuzzy as he can get. I hope that Arya can find a way to release his name from her list soon. The fact that we can feel empathy and sympathy for the man who senselessly killed Micah back in S1 boggles my mind, but there it is.

Edited May 24, 2014 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

I must agree with the first poster that while yes, Sansa's courage was speaking up first, often, without the "first follower", change never can never take place, and without The Hound speaking up and supporting Sansa's comment, Joffs would have likely just killed the poor bastard anyway since he had no respect for Sansa

 

Again, I give less credit to the six and a half foot tall guy with the sword when it comes to speaking up in the face of Joffrey.  The Hound was around Joffrey enough to understand who Joffrey is and that was, mainly a bully who liked to really pick on anything he perceived as weaker.  Also, the scene where Tyrion comes in and saves Sansa from a beating with the flat of sword, after her dress in torn and she's kicked in the stomach all took place right in front of The Hound. That was the point I actually just gave up on the guy changing much.   I actually don't dislike the character, I just don't give him a pass on the bad crap that he's done (like standing there while Sansa was beaten and Joffrey said "leave her face, I like her pretty" ...remember when The Hound said he was all that would be standing between Sansa and Joffrey after they were married?  Apparently he meant literally standing there).   

 

When Sansa spoke up, she was risking Joffrey having the shit beaten out of her because he thought it was fun and Sansa knew that.  The Hound was risking having to defend his life with his ready sword.  I think what Sansa did was metric fuckton more difficult and displayed more bravery.  She knows she didn't stand a prayer of defending herself and did it anyway.  The Hound knows he can beat anyone, save perhaps his brother.  

 

 

 

Quite frankly, I have been the "speaker upper" in many professional circumstances where I thought I was speaking for "us", and then "us" just moved into the shadows and did not support me publicly, and no change occurred as a result.

 

Yeah, me too, but my stakes were "I could end up hearing crickets here" vs.  "he might decide today's the day to have me beaten until I'm crippled".  

 

So one of the things I was thinking about with Littlefinger and Sansa was stuff like bringing along crates of lemons to have lemon cakes made for her.  I really don't know what to do with that, you know?  On the one hand, even if he's just completely sincere and views her as the daughter he never got to have -- which on this show doesn't mean he won't actively lust after her -- sincerity doesn't count for much with Littlefinger, because I did always believe that LF sincerely loved Cat, but for him that meant justifying things like betraying Ned after he said he would help him.  Sincere love, approbation or admiration from Littelfinger doesn't mean much of anything, because for him that's justification for really twisted things. 

 

The crates of lemons just...I don't get it, it doesn't quite compute.  That seems to suggest he really wanted to make Sansa happy and comfortable.  Maybe even that he cared about spoiling her a little.  

 

I do worry that Sansa is vulnterable to that kind of caring.  Look how quick she was to view Crazypants Lyssa as a family member, friend and ally (which ought to be a normal enough thing, but Sansa's in a new situation and should have learned discretion and care).  However, she's also just an entirely loved starved adolescent, at this point, so....yeah, that bodes ill. 

Edited May 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

shimpy, I see the crates of lemons (which I don't even remember from the show, I'll have to look out for those in the last couple of eps, so thanks for pointing it out) as just part of LF's longer game, just another tactic he's able to use.  The scary thing about LF is, he's able to use kindness.  His toolbox is enormous.  He can use honesty for dishonest ends, like Cersei (LF to Ned: "I'm the last person you should trust.")  He can use trickery and deception.  He can just flat-out argue for what he wants.  He can work through other people.  He can use spying.  He can use threats.  He can use vengeful violence.  He is so well-armed for this game, I'm beginning to think he will get very very far before he gets taken down.  He may be sitting on the Iron Throne when Dany makes her Queen's Landing on the back of her biggest dragon.  

 

But yes, it terrifies me, that he can use kindness, too.  Ugh.  Be careful, Sansa!!!!!!

[stillshimpy]

shimpy, I see the crates of lemons (which I don't even remember from the show, I'll have to look out for those in the last couple of eps, so thanks for pointing it out)

 

It's what Lyssa told Sansa in that scene where Sansa was talking about not being allowed to have pudding until she'd had "all my proper food", which was a line that just freaking killed me in terms of "Ow" .  It's just every now and then Sansa will do or say something that makes me remember she went from being someone who was still young enough to have her dad get her a doll as a peace offering (a doll that she did keep, despite protestations) to this pit of vipers. Apparently Jaime is forty, which means Cersei is forty, which means that Cersei was 22 or 3 when she was married off to Robert, naively thrilled at the prospect.  

 

Sansa was 13 when all this shit started exploding around her and it's a world where apparently Cersei was still naive enough at 22 or so to believe in a fairytale.  Point being, it was just sad to see Sansa seemingly so eager to talk about her parents and hear about her mother.  That was the scene where Sansa said she was surprised they had lemons at the Eyrie and Lyssa said they didn't, Littlefinger brought crates of them so that Sansa could have lemon-cakes.  Then she asked Sansa if she was pregnant by LF and it all went spectacularly to hell.  

 

 

 

But yes, it terrifies me, that he can use kindness, too.  Ugh.  Be careful, Sansa!!!!!!

 

No kidding, right?  But the thing that troubles me isn't that he might be using kindness, it's that it might just have been genuine kindness. One is terrifying, that he's that manipulative and cunning to know how to win favor with people the other is terrifying on a new level to me, because Littlefinger might really just be at his most dangerous when experiencing a genuine emotion.  

 

Look what his genuine love for Cat has wrought.  

 

Admittedly, as with The Hound not being wholly defined by his best or worst act, I guess even Littelfinger could do something kind just to do it.  I just sort of doubt it bodes anything other than truly ill either way. 

Edited May 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

Look what his genuine love for Cat has wrought.

 

Well I think we are agreed that whatever his "genuine love" for Cat was/is, it has turned or is turning into something "genuine" for Sansa.  Personally, I think that at the base of it all is revenge.  He couldn't win Cat, b/c he wasn't the first son of a great House, and also b/c he couldn't beat Brandon Stark, and also b/c Cat just never could love him (he was "like a brother" to her, even though he was the one who spent their childhoods listening to her talk about the horses and boys that she liked, etc.).  I think that what LF feels about Cat, and about the world in general, is that it all wasn't fair, wasn't fair, wasn't fair.  They all should have recognized his genius, his worth, his devotion, all so much sooner.  And so his "revenge" on Cat, and the whole damn world, will be his acquisition of Sansa.  (shudder)  It will look something like love, but it will be something like vengeance.  Revenge for his own perceived injuries, that nobody cares about, or would even call "injuries," but him. (cf. that earlier great post where someone linked to the "wounded" mentality, I forget what exactly the syndrome was called)

[DemosthenesKey]

I dunno, I might call the scar Brandon Stark gave him genuine :D

... So sorry. Just had to throw that in there. ^_^

At first I was just really, really hoping that Littlefinger was just going to keep Sansa on as a protege of sorts - being the Hound to her Arya, I suppose I'd say - but that kiss really changed everything, both in the show and in my mind. Now all I hope is that he doesn't rape her, but here's the thing: I really don't think he will. If he does, I will become entirely frustrated with a Show, because there's really only so many times that Rape As Drama can be used effectively. Or even used to a point where the audience doesn't roll their eyes.

[abelard]

I dunno, I might call the scar Brandon Stark gave him genuine :D ... So sorry. Just had to throw that in there. ^_^

 

The physical injury was certainly real - I think LF told Ned he bore a scar from the duel with Brandon that ran the length of his torso, up to his neck, right? meaning that if Brandon had decided to cut just a bit deeper, it would not only have killed LF, but opened him up wide.  But in terms of the injury to LF's honor or soul or "self" or whatever, there was none.  LF challenged Brandon to that duel.  He lost.  Brandon opted to show mercy b/c Cat asked him.  Cat was Brandon's betrothed so we can assume Brandon's mercy was a gift to her.  End of story.  Done.  No law broken, no one's honor impinged upon.  No one was done wrong by in that scenario.  Possibly Brandon Stark may have wondered wth his fiancée's supposed best friend was doing challenging him to a duel, so Brandon may have felt a bit "wronged" in that scenario, but I'm sure Cat was able to assure him that there was no "there" there between her and LF.  Most people who heard about it in the Kingdoms probably laughed for 2 minutes and then went on to the next bit of gossip.

 

It's only LF who remembers, holds it close to his black heart, and uses that incident (which he brought on himself and which was fully resolved likely in about 3 minutes) as his primary motive for ruining thousands of lives and seven whole kingdoms.

 

Btw, just thinking about that duel makes me think about poor Cat, having been told from an early age that she would marry Brandon Stark, and dreaming about him and loving him (maybe mostly from afar - but not entirely, as she knew what he looked like, and that duel was certainly not the first time they spoke, etc.).  And then one day she's told that Brandon and his father were burned alive in KL, and she has to marry Stark Son #2.  Even if Ned wins for Best Consolation Prize ever, that still must have been tough.  I wonder how long Cat had after news of the burning reached her, before she had to ready herself for marriage to an entirely different person than she'd been fantasizing about her whole life.

[stillshimpy]

Even if Ned wins for Best Consolation Prize ever, that still must have been tough.  I wonder how long Cat had after news of the burning reached her, before she had to ready herself for marriage to an entirely different person than she'd been fantasizing about her whole life.

 

Seriously, I've always felt terrible for both of them on that.  What a grim wedding night that must have been for both.  "Right, let's get this the hell over with, shall we? Can we both lie back and think of duty, honor and the Seven Kingdoms way?"  I know a lot of creepy, weird stuff goes on in this story, but a wedding night with the virtual ghost of the burned alive Brandon at the forefront in both of their minds must have been the antithesis of romantic.  

 

Plus, we never did find out if poor Ned had his eye on anyone else, or a crush on anyone.   I know when marriages are arranged for alliances and duty, that kind of thing could just happen.  Something that wasn't an emotional choice for either, but that would be so.much.worse since normally people would be, at best, detached from one another.  

 

Instead, there they were, doing the deed.  Both loving Brandon in their completely different ways. Both having his spook lurking in the corners of their mind.  Poor Robb Stark, but in some ways maybe his end was inevitable since his start in life was two people just dogged doing their duty.  It makes sense that he decided to tread a different path, and at least he had actual romance vs. "We grew to love one another" .   Again, how much of a treat must their early years have been?  Argh. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DemosthenesKey]

Didn't Cat say something to Ned about how the last time he went out to war, he brought back another woman's son? So not only were they either just married or just about to be married (depending on whether they did the deed immediately after his brother was burned alive or immediately after Robert plopped down on the Iron Throne), but Ned starts off the marriage with an adorable little bastard named Jon, too...

[stillshimpy]

Robb was (argh with the past tense) older than Jon, so I think they got married and tried to make sure they created an heir prior to Ned's leaving for War.  However, I was also thinking about "and by the time he got back, he brought Jon with him" to add to the "what ho, these merry days pass so quickly" vibe of it all at Winterfell. 

[DirewolfPup]

Perhaps Willa was a girl that Ned loved before getting married to Cat. Ned and Robert both studied with Jon Arryn somewhere south of Winterfell. (I would guess King's Landing, but I don't know for sure.) She could have been a girl that he had a thing for prior to the whole burning of Lord Stark and Brandon. That would explain the world of guilt on Ned's face S01E02 when Ned and Robert were talking about the war over their picnic lunch.  Not only would there be guilt over cheating on Cat, the woman he married and now loves whole heartedly, he could also feel guilty for loving Willa and never being able to make an honest woman of her or be with the woman he truly loved once upon a happy Westeros.

 

It would be nice to think that Ned had a love prior to Cat. I don't really know why.

[izabella]

For some reason, I thought Willa was one of Robert's many lovers while they were fighting the war against the Mad King, not Ned's lover.  I didn't think Ned had named anyone as his lover.

 

Am I misremembering?

[stillshimpy]

Yes, you are remembering that incorrectly.  Bessie was one of Robert's lovers/camp followers.  Robert then asked what the name of Jon's mother was, the girl he was with -- which by the way, really indicates to me that regardless, Ned was known to have had a fling right after tromping off to war.  Ned answered "Willa". 

 

Perhaps Willa was a girl that Ned loved before getting married to Cat.

 

Even if Willa isn't Jon's mother, I hope that's the case, since Robert was aware that Ned had been having some sort of fling with someone and believed that person to be Jon's mother.  

[Anothermi]

Perhaps Willa was a girl that Ned loved before getting married to Cat. Ned and Robert both studied with Jon Arryn somewhere south of Winterfell. (I would guess King's Landing, but I don't know for sure.) She could have been a girl that he had a thing for prior to the whole burning of Lord Stark and Brandon. 

Funny how we imagine small things like that in such different ways, but I guess that's why talking together about the show is so interesting.  We all have different ways of viewing the same images and interpreting the same dialog.  

 

I always imagined that Ned and Robert "studied" with Jon Arryn on his home turf - The Eyrie - and the surrounding lands of the Vale.  The Targaryens were still in power then, and I didn't get the impression that Jon Arryn had any position in THAT court or even in King's Landing, until after the Rebellion. That would mean he remained at home and was Warden of it like Ned was for the North later on.  Just my imagination of course.

 

Anyway, I also like the idea that Ned had a love before Cat.  With my imaginary placement of where Ned got trained - the Eyrie - it might be possible that she was from a Keep of a bannerman of Jon Arryn (spitball: in which case she could still be in the Vale, albeit an old woman now!! Yeah, snowball's chance in Hell for that.) or at least be a girl from that area rather than someone from King's Landing.  I'd be happy with any scenario of Ned-had-a-past-love though. 

[Llywela]

I always imagined that Ned and Robert "studied" with Jon Arryn on his home turf - The Eyrie - and the surrounding lands of the Vale.  The Targaryens were still in power then, and I didn't get the impression that Jon Arryn had any position in THAT court or even in King's Landing, until after the Rebellion. That would mean he remained at home and was Warden of it like Ned was for the North later on.  Just my imagination of course.

 

I'd always imagined much the same thing - that would be in line with the real life medieval practice of noblemen 'fostering' one another's sons for a period during their youth, so that the lads got to experience life at a different court, learn new ideas, meet new people, forge social ties, etc. Far more likely that a nobleman would take this on in his own domain than while working away at court.

 

[DirewolfPup]

Anothermi

Anyway, I also like the idea that Ned had a love before Cat.  With my imaginary placement of where Ned got trained - the Eyrie - it might be possible that she was from a Keep of a bannerman of Jon Arryn (spitball: in which case she could still be in the Vale, albeit an old woman now!! Yeah, snowball's chance in Hell for that.) or at least be a girl from that area rather than someone from King's Landing.  I'd be happy with any scenario of Ned-had-a-past-love though.

 

If Willa is still alive in the vast middle-lands between King's Landing and Winterfell, maybe she knows Jon Snow's parentage. At least that way, there could be a chance Arya/Brienne/Sansa or somebody would run into her and find out. It's better than waiting around for Benjen to not be dead.

[Snowblack]

Awww, I'm liking the Ned's past love scenario.  It's hard to imagine him having a liaison with her after he's married to Catlyn, but it does seem more plausible than him hooking up with a random woman he meets while off at war.

 

I've been thinking about possibilities for a battle at the Wall.  We don't know whether it will happen this season, but it kind of seemed to be going that direction before Joffrey's death and the whole trial thing grabbed a prominent role.  I had been thinking that Stannis' troops might swoop in to save the day from the overnumbering wildling army, much as the Tyrells did at King's Landing.  But we haven't seen much movement from Stannis.  From the opening credits, the Wall looks far north of Braavos, and Castle Black looks like it's at the midpoint of the Wall, so it would be a very long journey for Stannis and his mercenaries.  Bolton's forces being trapped south of the moat would be helpful for him, so at least he wouldn't have to face them on his way there.  But what about the Karstarks and other bannermen whose troops left Robb before the wedding, and therefore are still alive in the north?  It seems like too much for three episodes, even though travel in this series seems to be remarkably fast and trouble-free.  Then again, maybe Stannis isn't planning on going north yet, and his focus truly is on King's Landing.  If that's the case, and Castle Black is overrun, the north will be a disaster.  It seems to me that the wildlings would leave a swath of destruction in their wake every bit as devastating as that left by the Mountain and the Lannister troops.  Ad hoc troops of various bannermen wouldn't do much to slow them down, considering their numbers.

 

So where are our wildlings?  It appears that there are relatively small numbers south of the wall...a few hundred at most.  Is their plan for those south of the wall to take Castle Black and then open the tunnels beneath the Wall when Mance Rayder lights his fire and sends men into the tunnel?  Maybe the Giants can scale the Wall simultaneously.  I don't know that they would fit into the tunnel to wrench open all the gates, as Jon was imagining.  Or are there only gates at either end?  If there aren't gates in the center of the Wall, the giants could definitely get the wildlings into the tunnel. 

 

An alternative that occured to me is whether Mance's "biggest fire" is some sort of fire-based attack that will actually melt a section of the Wall.  He doesn't have wildfire, as far as we know, so I'm having trouble imagining what that would be, other than a sustained attack with burning projectiles, whether from giants or catapults.  It's seems short-sighted to destroy part of the Wall to get to the other side if the reason for doing so is scary monsters pursuing you.  But we know that steel doesn't stop the White Walkers...remember the sword shattering?  Maybe they can shatter all the gates and waltz right under the Wall.  So Jon's idea of sealing the tunnels with ice is actually a decent idea.  My only other thought on wildlings being capable of creating massive fires or fire weapons is that it would make a great weapon against the zombies.

 

The other scenario that occurred to me is if the wildling army masses at the Wall, and is then trapped between the Wall and the White Walker/zombie army.  Do the Night's Watch help, or do they sit back allow them to destroy a large portion of each other's armies?  It would be pretty epic.  But it's too much to hope for.

[MrMicrophone]

Stannis' storyline is full of missed opportunities.

A much stronger focus on Stannis (Ambition!) versus Mellisandre (Holy Right!),

as Stannis is forced to choose between marching on Kings Landing and going North,

would have made a far more interesting storyline.

 

And as a bonus, we could all be rooting for stannis to listen to Mel.

[DemosthenesKey]

Man, I really like the sound of that story... With Davos as the voice of reason, too! :D Let's hope the showrunners read this thread!

[stillshimpy]

I personally wish Stannis got to be an actual character within his own story more than anything.  It's only important to me because I've never really been allowed to get to know the guy beyond his sort of obvious detractors (story pace sort of grinds to a halt , he lacks any kind of recognizable human warmth to which I could relate; he keeps threatening to kill or trying to kill, or killing characters I do like -- Davos, Gendry and even Renly who I didn't like at all in the first season) . 

 

And as a bonus, we could all be rooting for stannis to listen to Mel.

 

As a bonus I could at least understand why he wants to be King.  "Mine by right!"...yeah, well, we've got one of those in the story already in the form of Dany.  Then that 'right' came to him via his brother, Robert and yet Stannis had very little real reaction to murdering Renly.  

 

I still think Stannis might be bewitched.  If that's the case?  Seven gods and their huge variety of worshipers, please let the spell be broken.  

 

Unintentionally funny moment: When Stannis's Wife, whatever her name is, kept eyeballing Melisandre -- because her figure really is almost laughably beautiful and the actress was just looking stunning too -- and then asked if Melisandre had used the lust potion on Stannis.  That was just sort of funny to me.  She looks like she's carved out of marble and the words Aphrodite and goddess wouldn't be ill-applied overall...and just no one would think "But you totally had to drug my husband, right?" particularly since the poor woman was looking a tiny bit besotted as it was.  Melisandre is evil as hell, but she is basically a lust potion.  

 

I'm a straight woman and started laughing out loud because she looked so fabulous, it was almost divorced from sexuality and well into the artistic in terms of how beautiful the actress was looking.  

[abelard]

Unintentionally funny moment: When Stannis's Wife, whatever her name is, kept eyeballing Melisandre -- because her figure really is almost laughably beautiful and the actress was just looking stunning too -- and then asked if Melisandre had used the lust potion on Stannis.  That was just sort of funny to me.  She looks like she's carved out of marble and the words Aphrodite and goddess wouldn't be ill-applied overall...and just no one would think "But you totally had to drug my husband, right?" particularly since the poor woman was looking a tiny bit besotted as it was.  Melisandre is evil as hell, but she is basically a lust potion. 

I'm a straight woman and started laughing out loud because she looked so fabulous, it was almost divorced from sexuality and well into the artistic in terms of how beautiful the actress was looking.

 

So true.  My sister says that some actors (her example is Daniel Craig, YMMV) are not very beautiful but can act as if they are very, very beautiful.  Craig, on an average day, might not turn your head, but he knows how to act like the most handsome man alive.  I would put Marilyn Monroe in this category as well, she once showed a friend, while walking with her on a sidewalk, how she could leave "it" off (no heads turning) or turn "it" on (at which point, men started to stare at MM and wolf-whistle, the whole shebang).

 

The Melisandre actress, in the bath sequence, really turned it on and on.  She has a great body and a striking face, but she also knew how to play "it" all up and down and sideways in that scene.  I love it when actors do that.  Yes it helps when they've got the physical goods, but so much of "it" is attitude, posture, charisma.  How you sit, stand, move.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Melisandre actress, getting ready for that scene, even told herself, "Aphrodite.  Goddess." while prepping. 

[DemosthenesKey]

YES! So much so! XD And the little look Melisandre gave her when she asked if she used the potion was just priceless... I refuse to believe the comedy of that scene was unintentional. If Team Stannis can keep that kind of humor up, then I'll start getting interested again. And on the subject of Stannis, I tend to see his background not so much in Stannis himself as in the way he affects the world around him... Didn't his wife say something about how she was with him during that battle that he led way back when? The one that Davos came and bailed him out with his onions.. So that seems kind of crazy, but it also provides him with some motivation for pulling through that siege At Any Cost. Coming to rewatch Stannis and Davos' speech before Blackwater gives the most insight into Stannis that I've seen so far.

Ooh. Another small comment about Dany's rightful claim: Does she really have one? If we're going by law of Might Makes Right, then Robert has the rightful claim. If we're going by saying that Robert was a usurper and shouldn't have gone after the ruling dynasty for being balls-wobblingly insane, then... Well... I'm just saying that if Dany comes back, I feel like she's going to be like she was with Meereen. "They were all usurpers! Burn them! *later on* What's that you say? Some of them were quite nice people? Nah, these Starks and Baratheons and Lannisters and pretty much half the people in Westeros COULDN'T have been nice, they rebelled against my father, who my brother always told me was a perfectly lovely man! ... Hm. All right, I suppose you can bury them."

[AlphaLine]

  I had been thinking that Stannis' troops might swoop in to save the day from the overnumbering wildling army

 

Stanis doesn't even know about the wildlings.

 

Also I don't see how Stannis, Boltons, Karstark etc. would be any better than the wildlings. If anything they are worse. Jon doesn't need them. He will either beat the wildlings somehow, or come to some understanding with them ( to fight white walkers ). I don't think Jon is up to it but one can only hope.

[Snowblack]

True, Stannis doesn't know about the wildlings, but the prophesy in the flames was a great battle in the snow up north, IIRC.  We don't know whether he was battling wildlings or white walkers, so we don't know the timing.  But Stannis knows he needs to gather an army and get to the north.

 

Unfortunately for Jon, the wildling army numbers in the tens of thousands.  As far as I can see, there are only three scenarios that can save Castle Black.  The first is trapping most of the wildlings north of the wall, which would involve sealing the tunnels and hoping the wildlings don't have a really good plan B.  The second is massive reinforcements from either northern houses or Stannis, which would make for an epic battle.  The third is a truce of sorts with the wildlings. 

 

A truce is hugely problematic.  I don't think the wildlings have any intention of standing with the Night's Watch or anyone else to fight the White Walkers and whatever else is up there.  I got the distrinct impression that their attitude was the same as Osha's:  get as far south as you can, as fast as you can.  I would be surprised to see them agree to stay north and fight.  More importantly, it would be disastrous for the Night's Watch to grant the wildlings passage to the south.  We've seen that the wildlings have no second thoughts about murdering and pillaging and cannibalising the people they encounter south of the wall.  And whether they stay near the wall and fight or go south, I got the impression that Mance Rayder doesn't have good control over their actions.  These are diverse people, just like the Hill Tribes.  They've bound together out of necessity, but they aren't disciplined, principled troops that will forego their needs and wants to obey a central command structure.  For the Night's Watch to knowingly unleash a horde of tens of thousands of wildlings on westeros is akin to unleashing the Dothraki on westeros, at least as far as the common people are concerned.  I don't think Jon would do that, but that the scumbags currently in charge might.  And it would be a wholesale dereliction of their vows to do it.

 

I think Jon will make a stand against the wildlings no matter what.  And I think that stand will be incredibly costly, even if he survives the battle.  The only question is whether the main force of the wildlings ends up north of the wall, south of the wall or dead when all is said and done.

[arry the orphan]

For me, there are only two storylines which need to be resolved this season - KL/Tyrion and the Wildling attack on the Wall. The rest feels like filler and world building for next season.

 

+ Stannis has been in stand-by mode since the battle for KL in S2.

+ Dany rules over Mereen and her storyline for this season could end right here. Tywins letter will probably shake things up, and we haven't seen much from the dragons this season. (Someone else will try to kidnap one??)

+ Briennepod and Aryahound are not going to make it to the Eeyrie. They will be turned back at Chekhov's gate and perhaps meet and fight it out on the road.

+ Theon will help Ramsay to take the Moat and Boltons army will return North. That whole storyline feels just like an excuse why the Northerners can't help defend the Wall

+ Bran will arrive at his special tree and find something???

 

So my guess:

Episode 8 - Trial by combat

Episode 9 - Wildlings attack the Wall - GIANTS!!!

Episode 10 - Check in with all characters and set something interesting up for next season.

 

My death predictions for the remaining three episodes:

 

+ The Mountain - Cersei will try to have Tyrion killed by some other means after Oberyn wins the trial.

+ Shae - by Cersei

+ Loras - by Cersei

+ One of Danys dragons

+ Yara  - by Ramsay

+ Gilly by Ygritte and Sam will blame Jon for it.

+ Thorne by a giant

+ Pyp and Grenn and the boy from the village

+ The Hound (at the hands of Brienne)

Edited May 29, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Snowblack]

I love it, Arry, especially the call on Ygritte killing Gilly!  Except someone from the Night's Watch needs to be there to see it for it to have any effect.  I could see the Wildlings attacking the town where Gilly is to draw out the Night's Watch.  Smaller raids haven't worked, so they might try something more ambitious.  I think Jon might be put in a position to need to kill Ygritte.  Again.  And when I wrote the word "again," it made me think that this time Jon will kill her in an act that shows he's not the kid he was at the Fist anymore.  And it would be the perfect heart-wrenching ending to their relationship.

 

I still think Tywin is going to get it before the season is out.  Oberyn came to King's Landing with two targets.  He's about to get his shot at the first, the Mountain.  If he (and therefore, Tyrion) survives, I think he may take his shot at the second.  I think that Tyrion may collude with him to create the perfect situation where Oberyn gets a shot to kill Tywin.  Then maybe (hopefully) Tyrion could find refuge in Dorne.  I would love for the trial plot line to end with Tywin dead and Tyrion finding acceptance somewhere warm and tolerant like Dorne.  But this is Game of Thrones, so I shouldn't expect any happy endings.

[AlphaLine]

True, Stannis doesn't know about the wildlings, but the prophesy in the flames was a great battle in the snow up north, IIRC.  We don't know whether he was battling wildlings or white walkers, so we don't know the timing.  But Stannis knows he needs to gather an army and get to the north.

Correct. I'd like to elaborate on why no one knows about the wildlings in case people are confused.

 

Sam got to Castle black BEFORE Jon, and then he wrote 44 letters ( wow hand aches! ), telling them about the white walkers he had seen ( Davos reads a brief summary of the letter and there is no mention of wildlings ). A while back I had speculated on the contents of the letter and its probably some thing  like 'Help! We're being attacked by zombies and ice demons. P.S. bring dragonglass ).  Now one might say the Night's watch may have sent more letters but no, Maester Aemon used every one of the 44 ravens he had that one time. Ergo, no one knows about wildlings. 

 

This is also obvious in the fact that NO ONE at the wall expresses a hope that 'Man, I wish someone would come and rescue us from wildlings'. or something. The only exception is Tywin who does know, but that's only because he has a very good spy network ( read Varys ). It's possible that Bolton knows too ( since he is supposed to be 'in charge' of that sort of thing ), but he's busy fighting Greyjoys.

 

Coming back to the vision and Stannis. I think we can all agree that if Stannis were going to the wall he'd be there by now. He's been burning people, going to Bravos and generally screwing around. Keep in mind that Stannis doesn't care even a little bit, he only agreed to it because Melisandre forced him to, and said the war of 5 kings is nothing. But it was a fake out. Apparently Melisandre dropped them ball in the meantime so they forgot about the wall thing.

 

And I don't really see how Stannis ( or Bolton ) would be better than the wildlings. He'd probably try to burn everyone for being an 'infidel'. In fact I can see the Thenns being enthusiastic Lord of Light supporters, as they would get endless supplies of nicely roasted people..

[DemosthenesKey]

Despite A Show having repeatedly shown me that it is a bad idea, AlphaLine, I shall hold out hope that Stannis is - if not a good man - then a righteous one. I believe that SOMEONE in these bloody Seven Kingdoms will do something heroic, and if it's Stannis then I say bless him, and LoL bless Davos for believing in him when no one else would!

[MrMicrophone]

Demos,

That's the thing, though. Everyone's a hero in their own freaking story around here.

Even Machiavellian Tywin -- "look at how much money and soldiers lives I saved!"

Jaime's a hero for killing the Mad King.

Robert's a hero for winning The War.
Bran's a hero for (hopefully) Fixing The Actual Problem (with the white walkers) By Heading North.

Robb's a hero who tried to free/avenge his father.

 

Alpha,

The Wildlings are the perpetual threat... (granted, not on this scale). They're also a known threat --

it's known how to deal with invaders or raiders (even if they Aren't Named Greyjoy). I doubt sending

a message about the wildlings would get the Night's Watch more men than sending a message

about white walkers.

... because the Night's Watch is always asking for more men.

[AlphaLine]

Well my point was that Sam's letters contained nothing about Mance Rayder's attack on the wall. So there is no way anyone is coming to 'rescue' them from wildlings.

 

Coming back to the Trial by combat. I can see 3 possible outcomes.

 

1. Oberyn wins. Tyrion goes free, but his dad and sis hate him anyway so he leaves KL and goes somewhere else. Say to the Vale, to rescue Sansa from Littlefinger.

This is the most likely imo. Oberyn is a character that really grew on me, even though he was introduced with very simple motivations - I like sex, I hate lannisters. But then he his this weird background spending some years in the East, studied some poisons, even knows some secret anti Dragon tactics according to Tywin. And he has these funny lines and quirks 'So am I a master of something now' and so on. I don't think he should die imo, there is so much more that he could do.

 

2. Oberyn dies. Tyrion is sentenced to death, but escapes somehow ( say when Stannis attacks King's Landing ). Possibly with Jamie's help. He can then go to Essos, or whatever.

 

3. Oberyn dies and Tyrion is executed.

Least likely outcome. I could see one main character dying, but Tyrion is far too important. He's pretty much the only purely good guy left ( except Jon Snow, but he sucks). Also, it doesn't really drive the plot forward.

Edited May 30, 2014 by AlphaLine

[90PercentGravity]

Something I don't understand is why Tyrion hasn't made any kind of appeal to Tommen. I know that Tommen is under Tywin's thumb, but he is still the King and surely has the power to pardon someone?

[arry the orphan]

I think Tommen is King in name only. Tywin is Hand of the King. Cersei is Queen Regent and Tommen "reclused" himself from the trial.

[90PercentGravity]

Someone being Hand of the King and Cersei being Queen Regent didn't stop Joffrey from doing shit.

 

edited because Kind != King, especially in the same sentence as Joffrey.

Edited June 2, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[stillshimpy]

Plus, Tommen is little better than a kid and he may really believe that his Uncle murdered Joffrey.  Now when it comes to that, only children and drunks are likely to believe that -- because again -- you'd have to be daft to murder The King in a manner that implicated you had done it.  

 

However, Margaery does know that Tyrion is not guilty, so she may suggest to Tommen that he pardon Tyrion.   She's pretty inventive, so she could persuade him to do so as a favor to her without admitting, "Well, turns out Nana got into the gin again, and it all goes to hell after that..." 

Edited June 2, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

So I am reaching a point of weariness of all the good people on this show getting killed.  And yes I know bad people die too, fortunately.  But seeing Oberyn go so horribly, and now Tyrion is sentenced to death...I'm getting pretty afraid that Tyrion actually will get offed, despite all our predictions to the contrary (he is clearly the author's favorite, etc. etc.).  And if Tyrion goes...I just don't know if I can keep going with this.  I mean, of course I will, but I am just starting to feel like it all goes against "us," the viewers, not all the time but very often.  Ned's beheading was extremely hard to take but I could manage b/c it set up something really great (the war of the Five Kings or however many).  Joffrey's wedding somewhat made up for the Red Wedding.  But if we lose Oberyn and Tyrion virtually at once...I don't know what spectacular plot thing that could set up, and I don't know whose death would "make amends" for those.  Tywin's, yes.  Cersei's, maybe.  I guess I just don't know if I see anything coming that can be exciting/thrilling/nail-biting enough to warrant more good guys, and I mean Really Good Guys (and yes I know they were/are flawed human beings, etc etc), getting killed off.

 

sigh tl;dr: Just tired of losing characters I'm rooting for on this show.  And scared Tyrion is next.

[stillshimpy]

I think Tyrion will get out of this, abelard.  I don't think he's merely the author's favorite, I think he's essentially the author's avatar within the story.  

 

He's frequently stuck as the person desperately trying to live by his wits as the shit-bombs go off around him as the pretty, the powerful and the admired do what they want and people treat him like something unpleasant they found on the bottom of their shoe.  

 

Besides, I think there's a chance that all hell will break loose in the form of whatever the hell Stannis and Davos are up to before Tyrion can be executed.  Or Varys will try to guide Margaery towards persuading Tommen to pardon Tyrion.  Yes, I know that would be against Tywin's wishes, but if Jaime offers to reinstate the "I'll go to Casterly Rock and make Lannister-named babies like a good son." offer, maybe it can all work. 

 

Here's the problem for me: I sort of don't care if Tyrion lives or dies.  Sure, he's likable enough by the standards of this show, but he could have avoided all of this if he'd left with Shae after blackwater.  He made his choices, he tried to keep Shae close long after it was practical, or even close to smart.  He behaved selfishly and thus far, a lot of other people keep paying for that.  

 

If he dies? Eh.  Bye.   Tyrion not being willing to go to The Wall I get.  People treat him like dung as a dwarf, even though he's in the most powerful family in the land.  His existence at The Wall would likely suck.  However, that initial "I choose Trial by Combat, mothfucka! Take that, bad dad!" stuff was ever imperiling his hide and Tyrion knew it.  

 

I feel far, far sorrier for Oberyn for answering the call of decency than I do for Tyrion who always knew someone else would have to fight for him and possibly die for him.  He wanted it to be Jaime, but that was freaking senseless as hell.  

 

It's kind of like Ramsay winning over the Pater with terrible acts against humanity and thereby healing his daddy issues.  

 

Tyrion was asking someone else to essentially risk their lives for him and the person who was punished for that was Oberyn.  Tyrion always knew that someone else would be fighting and it's just...how is that so very different than Cersei allowing a servant to her eye beaten out for the theft of a necklace Cersei took?  That Tyrion is clearly innocent?  They were willing to rig a trial, why did he not get that the combat would likely be just as rigged? 

 

Also, I get that I'm looking to a drunk for logic, but why would Cersie not be freaked the hell out over Oberyn fighting the Mountain?  Myrcella's in Dorne.  Cersei is supposed to be all about loving her children.  Was it only Joffrey that really applied to, because having The Mountain kill Oberyn isn't exactly going to guarantee Myrcella's good treatment. 

Edited June 2, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

 

Someone being Hand of the King and Cersei being Queen Regent didn't stop Joffrey from doing shit.

 

Tyrion sent Lord Commander Neckbeard to the Wall, because he wanted to prove that Joffrey had no "real power". After that, all that Joffrey did was abusing whores (and Sansa), talking big how he is going to defeat Stannis while everyone ignored him. The only one taking orders from Joffrey was Meryn fucking Trant. Even the Kings Justice was not no longer been seen after cutting out the tongue of the singer at the end of Season 1.

Edited June 2, 2014 by arry the orphan

[abelard]

Yeah I hear you on holding Tyrion accountable for his choice to stay in KL, shimpy.  I definitely think he should have left with Shae after Blackwater.  And I definitely think that Oberyn losing his life to try to save Tyrion's was just Not Fair At All.  But I still want Tyrion around, godsdammit.  So I hope that you are right, that he is the author's avatar, and that he's staying put, one way or another.  

 

But I guess I still don't see what's the next big exciting thing that could ride on the back of either a Tyrion execution or a Tyrion escape.  Maybe it's just that Stannis/Davos storming KL doesn't seem that thrilling to me.  Well, unless they win swiftly and effectuate a total changeover.  Okay I guess that would be interesting.  But then what do we get?  Stannis and Mel burning people alive again?  More Shireen, more Shireen's dull mom?  More Noble Davos?  If we're stuck with the Stannis show in Westeros, and the Dany show in Easteros (ha! just made that up), all of next season, that is one boring show right there.  

 

I'm also not totally looking for more Jon at the Wall stuff, or even more Sansa and LF playing mind games at the Eyrie, or Bolton's Legitimated Bastard gollumizing Reek some more.  Less boring than Stannis for sure, but still not that interesting. 

 

Come on, Show!!  Surprise me!!!

[gingerella]

Myrcella's in Dorne.  Cersei is supposed to be all about loving her children.  Was it only Joffrey that really applied to, because having The Mountain kill Oberyn isn't exactly going to guarantee Myrcella's good treatment.

This is what I was thinking even before last night's episode. It doesn't make sense. Cersei should have called this charade off because of this. It is wrong that it would bring me joy to have Dorne send Mycella's head back to Cersei and the Lannisters?

[stillshimpy]

Well, there's no reason to believe that Myrcella is anything other than a good kid, I suppose.  But beyond that, I personally believed Oberyn, they don't hurt little girls in Dorne as a practice.  They'd be far more likely to come after the Lannisters with all their considerable might.  

 

I hope.  I hope.  

 

I'm also not totally looking for more Jon at the Wall stuff

 

Oh gods, yea verily, yea.   Last night on top of every other frustration, I was ready to throw Sam down a damned well.  " I was wrong to leave her there!"  Jebus, Sam, even freaking Gilly knew that at.the.time.  Who the hell leaves a woman and child in a whorehouse and somehow expects they'll be safe?  

 

So on the one hand there's the ever dour Jon with which to contend and then too often incompetent Sam.  

 

Although, I will admit, Ygritte sparing Gilly and her baby made me like Ygritte for the first time in ages.  I haven't like Jon for...well, wow, there was a time I liked Jon.  I'm sure of it.  There was that time he gave Arya Needle, and a couple of other...Yeah, seriously, Jon Snore.  

[izabella]

I find all of the Wall stuff frustrating.  It's taken how many seasons for the Wildlings to get anywhere near the Wall?  The Whitewalkers and zombies are just hanging out, raising babies, while waiting for Winter to finally Come to Westeros south of the Wall?  And we're still waiting, except for this advance party of Wildlings.

 

It's not so different from what's happening in the whole show, though.  Winter is Coming, so they say, but no one is the least bit interested in preparing for it.  The Red Woman says, hey, yo, change of plan - need to go to the Wall!  But they've gone to Bravos instead and now they're doing what?  Getting gold in order to fight the Lannister army, which has fuck-all to do with going to the Wall.  The Hound and Arya's Excellent Adventure continues.  Brienne and Jamie's Excellent Adventure is over, and now it's Brienne and Pod's Excellent Adventure.  Dany is is playing Dora the Explorer across the Narrow Sea.  Tyrion has been in a dungeon since episode 3, I think, and now is talking about crushed beetles, highlighting the uselessness of it all.

 

People die, Kings are poisoned, ho hum.  Yes, one can continue a story indefinitely showing just bits and pieces of a whole lotta characters and even more gore, torture, slayings and whores, but it's all amounting to very little at this point, I feel.

Edited June 2, 2014 by izabella

[ChocButterfly]

Here's the problem for me: I sort of don't care if Tyrion lives or dies.  Sure, he's likable enough by the standards of this show, but he could have avoided all of this if he'd left with Shae after blackwater.  He made his choices, he tried to keep Shae close long after it was practical, or even close to smart.  He behaved selfishly and thus far, a lot of other people keep paying for that. 

 

If he dies? Eh.  Bye.   Tyrion not being willing to go to The Wall I get.  People treat him like dung as a dwarf, even though he's in the most powerful family in the land.  His existence at The Wall would likely suck.  However, that initial "I choose Trial by Combat, mothfucka! Take that, bad dad!" stuff was ever imperiling his hide and Tyrion knew it. 

 

I feel far, far sorrier for Oberyn for answering the call of decency than I do for Tyrion who always knew someone else would have to fight for him and possibly die for him.  He wanted it to be Jaime, but that was freaking senseless as hell.

THIS so much!! I cared more about Oberyn than Tyrion at this point. I like Tyrion, but he's too selfish, and too scared of Daddy to actually stand up to him. We've seen Jaimie do it, so it can be done. The only thing Tyrion was risking if he had left would have been a super duper rich life, because he still had enough money to make sure Shae had a comfortable life in Essos, that means he could have saved even more $$ for him. Plus, Tyrion has never really sacrificed much, others do it for him and he pays them with his father money, not even his! He complains so much about wanting his Dad's approval, he's old enough to face that he'll never get it and he should have left the fuck outta that snake pit ages ago and just be happy with the woman he supposedly loved so much. But oh no, he loved "the game" more. Well, screw you, that's what you get for trying to play the Game. He should've known he'd never win.

 

 

Something I don't understand is why Tyrion hasn't made any kind of appeal to Tommen. I know that Tommen is under Tywin's thumb, but he is still the King and surely has the power to pardon someone?

I don't think they'd let Tyrion even talk to Tommen to make an appeal. Remember Tommen excused himself from the trial. He's not on the trial and he'll never get to hear Tyrion's side of the story. He'll do whatever Twyin tells him to do. And I don't think Margeary will get in the middle of that. The only one who could help Tryion scape is Jaimie.

[izabella]

I suppose Jamie could talk to Tommen on Tyrion's behalf.  Still, I don't see Tommen making any moves without Tywin's approval and endorsement.

[abelard]

Well, after feeilng dispirited about where things in KL have gone and are possibly going (who would have thought I could be depressed about KL after the Offing of Joff?!?!), I think I've decided to get more emotionally invested in Dany's little court at Easteros, as I am now officially calling the Across the Narrow Sea Places that Aren't Braavos.  

 

I was always a bit impatient with the Dany storyline, post-Drogo, since it seems to consist of a lot of wandering about and wasting time while the dragons grow up.  But I'm going to start caring.  B/c I don't think I can make myself care about Stannis.  I just don't.  So here's what I like about Dany and her folks:

 

-Dany is mostly rootworthy and I think she will probably win the Game in the long run.

 

-There's actual romance happening!  Grey Worm/Miss Sandy (forget who called her that but I always call her that now), plus Daario/Dany.  I know that Daario is just Dany's booty call but hey, it's sex initiated by a woman for her own pleasure, and not incest/rape/torture.  So, I'll take it!

 

-Ser Barristan Selmy!  Have always loved him.

 

-Dragons!  Just watching a bunch of CGI flying around can be more interesting than the Wall sometimes.

 

I've never cared about Jorah one way or another, or rather I never cared about his mad love for Dany, so I'll be happy to follow whatever he does next, wherever that is.  Jorah being part of Dany's court doesn't make or break it for me one way or another.

 

So...yeah.  If our options are to care about: a) LF and Sansa weirding out on each other, probably at Sansa's great psychological expense, b) The Hound's slow death whilst on the endless road trip with Arya, c) Dour Stannis, Good Davos, Killer Mel, and Boring Stannis's Wife, d) Ramsay The New Joffrey, e) Watching Another Good Person Endangered in KL, f) the friggin' Wall, or g) Dany and her small band of pyramid-dwellers?   Guess I'm taking g.  

 

Of course I care about Brienne and Pod, but who knows what they're up to.  They don't count as a separate storyline for me at this point, I think they're bound to join up with one of the above storylines shortly. 

Edited b/c accidental double-post.

Edited June 2, 2014 by abelard