Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

r. I do thing that the necklace will be significant - especially with the Fool attempting to sorry spirit Sansa away

Sadly, I think it is just going to be used for how they corral Sansa again almost immediately.  Olenna likely just recognized who the necklace belonged to.  

Donto's house was once a "House on the Rise" and Olenna took a good long look at that thing.  

I think Tryion will end up cleared when they figure out that Dontos killed Joffrey with poisoned pie. 

[arry the orphan]

I just can't see how Tyrion will be cleared, if Sansa is involved. In Season 1 Ned lied and said that Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion on his orders and he told Arya that Sansa must lie to protect Joffrey, because she is going to be his wife. I believe that Tyrion would confess to killing Joffrey in order to safe Sansa's life.

Edited April 15, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Ace]

The killing of Joffrey makes Tommen  his younger brother King. This is a perfect opportunity for Stannis, all he has to do is dispose of Tommen and Myrcella to make himself the undisputed King of the 7 Kingdoms. He doesn't need Melisandre and LoL now he just needs two regular assassins. If Stannis doesn't takes this opportunity he really isn't up to the Games of Thrones.

As for who is responsible for the purple wedding? Tyrion isn't rash or stupid enough to kill Joffrey and make himself the prime suspect, my money is on Margaery under Obeya's direction. Margaery had the best opportunity since she fed Joffrey the pie. Only problem is it would have made more sense to get rid of Joffrey after he had impregnated Margaery. Ultimately, i think the Tyrells have over-reached themselves and will pay dearly for it.

Tywin could have laced the Valyrian steel sword with poison as he knew Joffrey was going to use it to cut the pie. The irony of this is compelling, the sword doing exactly what it was named for to it first owner. I think it was only a matter of time before Tywin got rid of Joffrey, he was the only that could control him and even then Joffrey started a war by beheading Ned, almost destroying all Tywin's hard work. With Jamie not taking up his responsibilities to the family dynasty Tywin would have to get rid of Joffrey in favour of a sane King (Tommen). 

[DirewolfPup]

My main hope for all of this is that A Show resolves A Murder within a reasonable amount of episodes. One or two maybe. I don't think I can stomach a slow burn reveal like "who killed all the bastards" or "who sent the assassin to stab Bran." Come to think of it, we still don't "know" who sent the assassin. We concluded it was Joffrey as a group if memory serves.

The Stannis scenes this week were so out of place and peculiar. I almost felt like I was watching a different show for a few minutes. Stannis' reaction to his wife's suggestion to beat Shireen was so unbelievably welcome.  Finally, a Stannis trait I can totally support and root for. Melissandre seemed awkward the whole dinner. This was almost on par with those lovely Breaking Bad breakfast scenes. Will this introduction of Shireen and Melissandre have some usefulness in the future?

Aside: What about Arya and Shireen as the dragon riders? Shireen is more obsessed with reading about the Targaryans than Arya was.

[stillshimpy]

Guys, there wasn't any actual food in that pie.  It was filled with live birds.  Some of which were cleaved in two (thanks for that closeup on the aforementioned HDTV...my husband and I both don't eat meat, so that was particularly "Oh man and tonight's not going to be the night we both say, 'screw it! let's eat a critter!' either, blech).  Just like when you have a girl jump out of a cake, it's a fake cake.  Servants appeared to be waiting with plates of pie and honestly, I've watched it an awful lot at this point, it really seems to be the pie that gets Joffrey, he starts choking and keeps trying to take drink of wine to stop the choking.  

I do think a bunch of dead dogs (thanks, show) are going to clear Tyrion. 

I believe that Tyrion would confess to killing Joffrey in order to safe Sansa's life.

Oh, I don't think he would, unless she really did it and I don't think she did. She's not a cunning person and she stands out a mile.  Who would have arranged it for her?   Her only faithful servant...Tyrion's mistress? 

[abelard]

Aside: What about Arya and Shireen as the dragon riders? Shireen is more obsessed with reading about the Targaryans than Arya was.

 

I love this spec b/c it would mean three dragons ridden by three female dragon-riders (Dany, Arya, Shireen) from three different houses (Targ, Stark, Baratheon).  That would be a really beautiful ending to the war of the many kings: three women get together, make peace between them and their houses (well, after they "vote" Dany in charge of KL of course), and ride dragons against the WW.  That would be just gorgeous. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

Yes all of Joffrey's complaining that "this pie is dry" (and he even made a face or a little cough with the first bite) makes me suspect the pie, with the wine being a misdirect leading to Tyrion's being blamed (which may or may not have been intentional on the part of the assassins).

[arry the orphan]

I always wondered why Qyburn is still part of the story. Next episode we are going to see a maester-off between Pycelle and Qyburn about the exact cause of death. Perhaps its time for Pycelle to stop playing the bumbling old fool or else Cersei (and Tywin as well) will have him replaced. Qyburns "experiments" might come in very handy in this case.

Edited April 15, 2014 by arry the orphan

[abelard]

Qyburns "experiments" might come in very handy in this case.

 

Oh yeah!  Autopsy!!

Unless (as I specc'd in the episode thread) Qyburn was "in on it" with the murderer (I'm going with Cersei for now).

[Cardie]

Hi, I left the ranks of the unspoiled after S1 when helpful friends thought their hints about various story developments wouldn't say anything to a non-bookreader. But I'm not spoiled about who killed Joffrey--thank all seven gods--so thought I would return for the Agatha Christie crime-solving only.

I see many persuasive arguments here. I'm convinced of it being the pie because even the craftiest murderer on the planet couldn't have foreseen exactly how the taunting and humiliating of Tyrion by Joffrey over the wine would play out. And I think it's an in-house job, that is, a Lannister job. Tywin is suspect #1 because he's not about to leave his legacy in the hands of this psycho. Whether he intended it or not, Tyrion taking the fall is just gravy. Cersei is right behind him, although she did seem to love Joffrey despite everything. Also, if she had poisoned the food, she'd have been happy for villagers to get the leftovers rather than dogs. As an outside choice, I can see Tyrion doing it because he knew that the wine would eventually be ruled out as source of the poison, so no risk to him if he actually cast suspicion on himself.

My only problem with these theories is how Dontos knew what was coming; none of them is going to read him in on this (well, maybe Tyrion.)

[stillshimpy]

Also, if she had poisoned the food, she'd have been happy for villagers to get the leftovers rather than dogs.

I actually don't think so.  A bunch of people in the village being poisoned by the crown leads to riots, which they could ill-afford after the death of the King if they are about to install a King below the age of majority.  Also, Cersei took the public blame for the slaughter of babies as it is, and it would in her best interest to have some pull over the knew King, rather than being shuttled away to appease the people in the wake of a village poisoning. 

Hey Cardie, good to see you again :-) 

[Glory]

Oh, yes! I didn't even think that Cersei sending the food the dogs could mean that she knew that some of the food was poisoned. Although, that still does not proove anything. 

Thinking back to watching the show, my first gut instinct was that Cersei had done it. I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that Tyrion was innocent and that Cersei had set him up. 

I'm still not sure what to think of Sir Dontos. It could be he is actually an intelligent man and he realized the king's death would be a hectic time to slip Sansa away from the party. 

Come to think of it - was Jaime in King's Landing when Joffrey punished Sir Dontos? I wonder if he might have any previous connection with the fool and he is helping keep his promise to Lady Brienne but using Dontos to do his dirty work. Hmm.... too extreme a theory? 

[90PercentGravity]

Didn't Ned confess as part of his deal with Varys (I think it was Varys) and then Joffery went all Joffrey on him and his deal turned out to be worthless.

[Cardie]

I admit I was thinking less of Cersei as a practical political actor and more of her as someone who would value a Lannister dog over a peasant's child!

Outside the Lannisters Lady Olenna seems to have the common sense, detachment and brains to know that she can't have the Tyrell fortunes yoked to such a mercurial nutjob. And she isn't emotional or vengeful; this was a murder planned by a pro, not someone seething with hatred for Joffrey--like me. And who wouldn't have confidence in the erstwhile Emma Peel to pull it off? Still, the timing seems wrong. As others have said, unless Margaery got pregnant between the wedding and the reception, it would seem the Tyrells would wait for an heir to the throne. 

The symmetry with the Red Wedding hints at an act of retaliation by an ally of the Starks. If she had any way to accomplish the assassination, the only vengeance seeker from the North I can think of as a suspect is Arya. 

[stillshimpy]

Yeah,  Selyse wins for worst sister and that's by miles and miles.  Even if Cersei had Joffrey kiled and then accused Tyrion anyway?  Selyse would still win "Okay, you're the worst sibling of all time" award.  Anyone who would watch a completely innocent person burn to death is a little suspect as it is.  I doubt Stannis has a lot of faith in any kind of Lord of anything, but he's also a fairly terrible liege lord.  Selyse still wins for worst anything forlooking elated as her poor brother was burned alive. 

 

 

The symmetry with the Red Wedding hints at an act of retaliation by an ally of the Starks

Wow, that's a really good point.  Blackfish got out of the Frey Wedding alive, but poisoning isn't his style.  I'm hoping that "killing Walder Frey is" with a follow-up round of "That bastard Bolton too".  

. Yara - She did publicly mock Theon a couple of times, even calling him the dumbest cunt alive, but she also set sail with the fastest ship and the 50 best killers of the Iron Islands to rescue her brother.

I have to give the top spot to Yara, because whereas Margaery is pretty good as a sister -- by the standards of this show -- Yara actually told her father to zark on off and told him how it was going to be, when he was prepared to abandon his own son to a terrible fate.  Yara is actually a worthwhile human being.  So she's totally doomed, of course, because that's how this story works, but I do hope that Theon knows that she really did care about him enough to come for him when she knew he was in that much trouble. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

That's a wondrous list, Constantinople.  "Game of Thrones: Not Since Little Women..."  

Now let's hear it for the brothers.

1. [Ned Stark: raised his sister's child Jon as his own bastard, keeping the secret from his wife and his best friend the King, and keeping him safe}*
2. Edmure Tully: married a Frey girl, sight unseen but whose reputation preceded her, at his sister's behest and because her son blew her off
3. Ned Stark: married his fallen brother's fiancee, knowing she loved him not
4. Robb Stark: loved his bastard brother/cousin and his family's hostage like a brother
5. Loras Tyrell: let his sister marry his lover, then agreed to marry his sister's second husband's horrid mother
6. Oberyn Martell: borderline rude to his sister's murderer; also, attended a wedding on his brother's behalf 
7. Jaime Lannister, re Tyrion: It sounded like fun, at the time...

On the other side of the ledger,

1. Stannis Baratheon: murdered his brother with his own nephew, a Smoke Baby
2. Theon Greyjoy: betrayed his sworn brother, tried to murder his two younger brother-figures
3. The Mountain: made his brother his bitch, The Hound
4. Vicerys Targareyn: sold his sister to a Horse Lord
5. Renly Baratheon: tried to usurp his brother's rightful claim
6. Robert Bartheon: gave not two shits for his two brothers
7. Jaime Lannister, re Cersei: "But you said, the Targareyns...."  

*  Risible speculation

[Chris Ashe]

The killing of Joffrey makes Tommen  his younger brother King. This is a perfect opportunity for Stannis, all he has to do is dispose of Tommen and Myrcella to make himself the undisputed King of the 7 Kingdoms. He doesn't need Melisandre and LoL now he just needs two regular assassins. If Stannis doesn't takes this opportunity he really isn't up to the Games of Thrones.

As Mel pointed out in the final episode of season three, this war of the five kings is not their concern, the real danger is north of the wall.

[90PercentGravity]

I just realized that if Tyrion is found guilty of treason and executed, Sansa will have lost both her father and her husband the same way. They might even accuse her of corrupting them.

Edited April 16, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[gingerella]

Constantinople, I take umbrage with your Sister List. In particular, I think we can say that Yara at least ties Margery for first place...lest we forget that she allowed Theon to engage in a wee bit 'o sister-fingering...on horseback no less! That? Should at least tie her with Marg's bisexual three-way with her brother and Renley. I'm just sayin', fair is fair.

TA: All hail, Cardie! Welcome back, here's your mug o grog!

Edited April 16, 2014 by gingerella

[arry the orphan]

 

So does Tyrion get a trial or do they execute him?

Tryion got a trial for allegedly killing Jon Arryn and allegedly attempting to kill Bran.  But Ned Stark didn't get a trial for allegedly plotting to overthrow Joffrey and kill him.

Are there different rules for alleged regicides?

This is how I believe that the justice system in Westeros works.

All law/justice originates from the King. That is the reason why in the pilot episode Ned says "In the name of Robert Baratheon.titles,titles, I sentence you to die", before beheading the deserter. So basically every lord can do this with crimes comitted on this lands. If two lords have a problem with each other, they probably have to go to their liege lord to dispense justice. Its also possible that there are different levels of law. The Kings Law, than the law of the ruler of the region (like Ned outlawed flaying in the North) and then the laws of the lord who owns the land (poaching, etc...). Jorah caught poachers on his land and had every right to execute them, but decided to sell them to slavers. Therefore violating Ned's law (Or Roberts law?) that slavery is illegal.

When Tyrion was accused of killing Lord Arryn and trying till kill Bran, Lysa said that her son Robin would hear the case and then decide if he was guilty or not. Tyrion preferred trial by combat.

Ned confessed his guilt publicly, therefore there was no need for a trial to determine guilt. Joffrey went directly to the sentencing part. (Off with his head).

So in the case of Joffreys murder I think Tommen will have the power to decide what happens to Tyrion. Cersei will of course demand that he will be executed. Jamie might be the only one who believes Tyrion is innocent. But then again, Jamie was responsible for the security at the wedding, so I don't know. Its a complete chaos.

Edited April 16, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Ace]

That seems like a pretty tall order, and neither Robert nor Joffrey were killed by regular assassins (nor the Mad King really).

Plus, even if Tommen and Myrcella were dead, I suspect the Lannisters would argue that Stannis's treason against Joffrey bars Stannis from the throne (and it bars Shireen too, as the daughter of a traitor).  Thus the throne would pass to Renly, except Renely's dead.  So I'm guessing the Lannisters would argue that the throne is up for grabs.

 

 

There are highly skilled assassins in the lands like Arya's friend. I'm saying that this is Stannis"s best way to get the throne now that he's lost so many men at Blackwater bay.

Stannis isn't a traitor he is the rightful King. The Lannister house has no claim to the throne. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are only in line for the throne because they are thought to be Robert Baratheon's Children.

[Ace]

 

 

The killing of Joffrey makes Tommen  his younger brother King. This is a perfect opportunity for Stannis, all he has to do is dispose of Tommen and Myrcella to make himself the undisputed King of the 7 Kingdoms. He doesn't need Melisandre and LoL now he just needs two regular assassins. If Stannis doesn't takes this opportunity he really isn't up to the Games of Thrones.

As Mel pointed out in the final episode of season three, this war of the five kings is not their concern, the real danger is north of the wall.

 

 

 

Fighting the invaders from beyond the wall first will only weaken Stannis's army and strengthen his 7 kingdom opponents. For me, this is the best evidence that Millisandre is only using Stannis and he is in fact under a spell or hypnotized.

[AlphaLine]

Unlike most people I don't really care who poisoned Joffrey. Little shit got what's coming to him and that's all that matters. Some of the theories discussed earlier are ridiculously far fetched- If Olenna/Marg wanted to poison Joffrey, they wouldn't need a plan involving Sansa, Drunk and a necklace. Have to wonder if those theories are coming from book readers or something.

Instead let's go on to the Dragonstone story. Ah Stannis and Mel, and the good ol' ritual burnings before breakfast. I don't know if Stannis hypnotized by Mel but really I don't care much. Personally, I think his destiny is to end up on the pyre one day himself . All the signs are pointing that way- he has 'King's blood'( which makes him great sacrifice material ), he's more or less controlled by Mel at this point and most importantly his entire army has been converted to the religion of the Lord of Light.

The thing about religious/crusader type armies is that they are wholly about belief systems and transcend loyalties to specific Lords or Kings, which is why Selyse's brother can be burned without worrying about the loss of troops ( like what happened to Karstark last year - Stannis points this out to Davos, in fact ). For all intents and purposes it is Melisandre's army. She doesn't actually need Stannis, and does anyone buy the whole 'Stannis is the Lord's champion blah blah'? This guy? Please. I think Melisandre is secretly going to support Dany, who is a MUCH better candidate for the warrior of light., and the whole stannis is a side show until she burns him for blood magic to support Dany. Which could happen this season. Davos, yeah I like him, but honestly he's just getting irrelevant now, just like Jorah. 

I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going. Stannis' army is still considerably huge ( it's not like all of them died at Blackwater, probably not even half ), and probably got reinforced by Lord of Light followers across Westeros ( like the Brotherhood ). The folks in King's Landing do NOT understand religious fanaticism - they just don't, and they are awfully complacent about the whole thing saying that 'the war is won and peace has come'. No you idiots, not even close. I think the seven kingdoms are gearing up for a massive clash of faiths akin to the Thirty years war, and KL people are going to experience it first hand.

And I'm glad the whole 'going to the wall' thing has been dropped just as suddenly as it came up. It's been weeks ( Jamie said that in episode 1, and this is a few weeks more ) since last season ended, and it doesn't look like Stannis and Mel are making plans to go anywhere. It never really made sense anyway and I was really worried it would impact the story there because Stannis doesn't know one thing about the White walkers, wildlings, Night's watch, and the North.  I doubt he'd even be able to tell the difference, as they're all infidels - and make good burning material. I guess the Thenns would be his enthusiastic supporters and eager to convert to the Lord of Light - there's more food south of the wall, and you get it nicely cooked too. Win.

[DirewolfPup]

The Kings Law, than the law of the ruler of the region (like Ned outlawed flaying in the North) and then the laws of the lord who owns the land (poaching, etc...).

When did we find out that Ned outlawed Flaying? I don't remember when that was said in the show. Did Bolton say that in S04E02? I wasn't really listening in that scene. I kept waiting for Theon to do something.

[WhiteStumbler]

Who does Tyrion have on his "side" (if we assume he is to be tried for the Off of Joff)?

Jaime - The brothers have been, and seem to remain, close. Jaime trusts Tyrion, a rare intrafamilial Lannister trait. Jaime would do nearly anything (even thwarting Cersei's or Tywin's wishes) to help his brother. He also has a fatalism and lack of concern about the opinions of others that would allow him to risk anything to help his brother.

Pod - Even absent Tyrion being his employer, I think Pod would do anything he could to help Tyrion out of his present situation.

Bronn - Like Pod, but much more mercenary. If he saw a threat to his stream of gold dragons, he would try to help Tyrion. If someone paid him handsomely enough, he might not lift a finger.

Sansa - Might not actively help Tyrion, but would probably not seek his downfall or destruction, because things could be a lot worse for her. Unless she saw some hope of escape for herself in it.

Varys - More neutral than on Team Tyrion. Didn't help Ned when he was accused of treason ("when you look at me do you see a hero?"), but knows that KL was basically saved by the actions of Tyrion, and he puts a great deal of stock in paying debts (pos and neg).

Anyone else who might say "I'll stand for the dwarf"?

[DirewolfPup]

I think it was Bolton's first scene. Bolton is updating Robb about the prisoners, mentions the officers may have some knowledge about Tywin's plans and says "A naked man has few secrets, a flayed man has none". Robb says, "My father outlawed flaying in the North", or something like it, to which Bolton replied "We're not in the North".

This was the same conversation where Bolton told Robb "The high road is very pretty, but you'll have hard time marching your army down it".

Ah, thank you!  It's all coming back to me now.

[stillshimpy]

I'd like to think Tywin would try to rig the proceedings in Tyrion's favor. A trial of one of their own makes the Lannisters look weak

True, Tywin seemed down with Tryion dying on the field of battle or in any other honorable way, but it would be disastrous for the Lannisters to have it believed they'd started killing their own.  

I don't really think Tyrion's going to end up having another trial though.   Cersei's hysterical accusations aside, that accusation can't possibly stick for long.  

I keep trying to figure out a way that Dontos choosing that moment to try and spirit Sansa away could be unrelated, but I can't come up with one that makes any sense.  Unless it runs something like, "Dontos was planning on sticking Sansa on the fastest ship to ________" while everyone else partied at the reception and he just kept his cool as the Joffrey went down and realized he had to act now. 

I don't think that really works, unless he and Sansa had a plan already.  I suppose that's possible.  Sansa has turned down multiple offers to get her out of King's Landing, but maybe she finally decided to accept one?  I don't know, that doesn't really seem to work either, therefore, I assume Dontos was in on it. 

[DirewolfPup]

Dontos may have played a part in Joffrey's killing. My first impression when watching the show was that Dontos didn't have anything to do with it, but saw that Joffrey was not doing well and tried to get Sansa out. Imagine if Joffrey had lived through a minor choking incident. He'd probably still try to blame someone (Tyrion most likely) for attempting to murder him even if it was his own stupid lack of chewing that caused it. For me it was more like a "oh shit! Things are about to go down! Let's get that nice girl that saved me out of dodge."

[RadiantAerynSun]

I wonder if Tyrion/Sansa's lack of consummation will become important at some later date if some other marriage is proposed hmmm....

[stillshimpy]

I've always felt sorry for Sansa.  She's a kid.  She was just a silly, fanciful kid who wanted to believe in charming princes and fairy tales coming true and this has been what she's gotten.  When the highlight of life in the last couple of years has been, "Hurray, one of the horrible people who has tormented me and killed my family was poisoned before my eyes."  

And the husband, who has at least tried to be kind to her,  is -- at the very least -- is being accused by some of the other people who made Sansa's life so horrible.  Sure, it's silly to believe in fairy tales coming true. 

 

 

I wonder if Tyrion/Sansa's lack of consummation will become important at some later date if some other marriage is proposed hmmm....

I so hope, I dearly hope, I fervently hope that poor freaking Sansa is off the marriage menu for a while, maybe forever.  If any young woman has earned the "I like the single life, thanks" mentality in that world it would be her.  So if another marriage is proposed for her, I hope it becomes a case of "Turns out I can't have babies.  Or sex.  I snore.  And eat people alive.  I take off my skin at night so I can scratch all my scales and I fart wildfire.  Men give me flatulence."  Anything that can get her off the matrimony merry-go-round.  That carnival ride has not been worth it for her. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

I still like going to the Character Appendix just to see the brackets around The Joff's name. Yep, still dead.

[arry the orphan]

 

I still like going to the Character Appendix just to see the brackets around The Joff's name. Yep, still dead.

Next episode on Game of Thrones: Thoros of Myr arrives in Kings Landing and brings Joffrey back to life.......................

[abelard]

That reminds me.

On the theory that the only good Lannister is a dead Lannister, here's my Lannister ranking

1. Alton - He was a reasonably good diplomat between Robb Stark & Cersei under the circumstances.  Plus, he's dead.

2. Martin and the other Lannister brat that Karstark off'd.  Below Alton because they hadn't done anything, positive or negative.  But they're still dead so they're "good" Lannisters.  And don't feel sorry for them.  No doubt they would have risen to be capos in the Lannister Crime Syndicate.

3. Joffrey - Since he's a bastard, technically he's a Fleabottom, or whatever King's Landing bastards are called, but for all intents and purposes, he's a Lannister.  Yes he was an awful human being, but he's still dead, so he's still better than everyone else on the list.

4. Reginald, the Sleepy Lannister - This is the guy that Tywin sent home with his head because he thought they could profit from some sleep rather than hold another boring staff meeting at Harrenhal.  Sleepy isn't as good as dead, but it's better than nothing.

5. Myrcella - Highest of the non-dead, non-sleepy Lannisters because she seems nice and doesn't even hold titular power.

6. Tommen - Nice as Myrcella, but ranked lower because he's now the king.  Plus, I like to think of him as Damien from the Omen (ever wonder why so many bad things happen around Tommen?  Just a coincidence that he was nearby during the two attempts on Joffrey's life, first during the riot and then at Joffrey's wedding?)

7. Tyrion - What I call the Human Face of Lannisterism.  Generally an enabler and an after-the-fact accomplice.  Tut-tuts and poo-poos, but still goes along.  Could jump to No. 3 on the list ahead of Joffrey if his upcoming legal troubles go the wrong way.

8. Tywin - At least he's generally competent, knows what he wants and how to get it.  Overreliant on force and money.

9. Kevan - He'd be higher but he's always too eager to give up.

10. Lancel - Mostly because he's such a spineless bootlicker.  His story about the Stark army feasting on the bodies of the slain was ridiculous.  It's also hard to respect someone who earned his knighthood based on his sword play with Cersei.

11. Jaime - Even if his story about saving King's Landing is true, it was all canceled out by foisting Joffrey and a succession crisis on the realm.  Regardless, he pushed Bran out a window and killed his cousin, all in the name of twincest.  Plus, he sucks at his job.

12. Cersei - Drunk, stupid and evil is no way to go through life, son.  Can't wait to read her book "How to lose friends and alienate the hell out of people".

Unranked: Tywin's wife and father.  They'd be on the higher end of the list, being dead and all, but they haven't actually appeared in the show.

This entire post is pure gold (dragons).  I love how you've implemented the Only Good Lannister Is a Dead Lannister Rule.  I would just move Joffrey to the bottom (i.e., "worst" position) b/c, even dead, I hate hate hate him and hate every single thing he did.  When Cersei is dead (please, Old Gods and New, let this story keep going long enough to kill off Cersei one day), I will feel pity for her.  But I will never, ever, ever feel anything like that for Joffrey.  (Credit to Jack Gleeson and writers and directors for creating such a successful monster - I don't know how old Gleeson is but I get the feeling he succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.)

[hobbers]

Can someone explain to me where exactly Bran and co are heading, or what to make of his 'tree-D' vision? Does the dragon shadow mean Danaerys (have I finally got this right?) will be getting her arse over the Narrow Sea or was it a flashback to Ye Olden Targ Times? Bran's crew seem to be trying to do the complete opposite to that wildling in s01 who was going "as far south as south goes". Hope they bump into a few other characters soon, be it Mance or that deserter rapist at Craster's, What was Sam thinking just letting them go?

Just realised I said I wanted Bran to bump into a rapist. Yeah, scratch that, Hodor's Hodoring would haunt my dreams thereafter.

[stillshimpy]

Next episode on Game of Thrones: Thoros of Myr arrives in Kings Landing and brings Joffrey back to life.

Yes and maybe it will turn out that The Brotherhood Without Banners was actually behind Joffrey's assassination.  Dontos had actually been stripped of any social standing.  He had gone from being a Knight to a Fool.  Maybe he planned it all with the Brotherhood without banners and they actually planned to take out the entire wedding with poisoned pie.  

I'm about half serious there.  

[Llywela]

 

Since he's a bastard, technically he's a Fleabottom, or whatever King's Landing bastards are called

...have we ever been told what King's Landing bastards are called? I don't remember ever hearing a surname for Gendry.

[stillshimpy]

have we ever been told what King's Landing bastards are called?

I don't think so, it's a port city though, so maybe something like Surf?  Seems a little on-the-nose though.  Sea?  

[DirewolfPup]

One of my goals this weekend is to watch the Bran Tree-Vision scene a few times, maybe frame by frame. There's a lot there, and I'm sure I missed at least 1/3 of it. Plus, all that stuff is bound to come up again.

[WhiteStumbler]

RE: Dontos - when we first met him at The Little Turd's Name Day Celebration, wasn't he introduced as "Ser Dontos of House _____, a free rider serving Petyr Baelish"? So if Dontos is the hand behind the poison, Littlefinger had means.

Littlefinger has motive; the Lannisters were behind the slaughter of his high school sweetheart. As for being able to do it, the timeline between the Red Wedding and Happy Ending Wedding are unclear, but appear to be at least 2-3 weeks. Enough time? Possibly.

BUT, what does LF gain? He hurts House L, and now that he (presumably) has his hooks in an important house, all other houses are rivals. Cersei is damaged, and Tyrion is set to take the fall, but Tywin (who LF had to know was ultimately behind the RW) is not. Different puppet, same master. So unless there is something still to come, I think I just talked myself out of the Off of Joff being the work of Littlefinger.

[Pallas]

I look forward to hearing what you find in Bran's vision, Direwolf Pup!  It seemed to me half stock footage, half cool-new, and without a doubt, meant to Have Import.  As I recall from what I saw, 

Stock footage: 3-eyed crow close-up and taking flight through the Stark crypt; wildling child or Baby Crow from the pilot in the forest, Ned drawing his sword; Ned in the dungeon; zompony, Brandon falling.

Cool-new: Godswood tree; season-scape; dragons-eye view over King's Landing.

And the voice-over.  "Look for me...in the tree...NORTH!"  Which other under circumstances, could sound a little like a pep rally bonfire chant.  Or more likely, Raven as the messenger of the rooted Godshead of the Tree.  

[Pallas]

have we ever been told what King's Landing bastards are called?

I don't think so, it's a port city though, so maybe something like Surf?  Seems a little on-the-nose though.  Sea?

Shite.

RE: Dontos - when we first met him at The Little Turd's Name Day Celebration, wasn't he introduced as "Ser Dontos of House _____, a free rider serving Petyr Baelish"? So if Dontos is the hand behind the poison, Littlefinger had means.

Ooow, White Stumbler, great catch!  I'm not sure if I think that suggests Littlefinger was involved in a plot to kill Joffrey or not, since I tend to think the perpetrator went rogue and acted solo, with a necessary agent here or there but no real co-conspirator.  

But I wonder if Dontos may be acting as a free agent in saving Sansa.  I've come 'round to seeing that he wasn't just a very savvy, court-hardened, Johnny-on-the-Spot in urging her to flee the Special Encore of the Primary Entertainment.  Maybe he took it upon himself to assist the Nice Lady. And if he's bound to Baelish -- guy can't catch a break, can he -- Dontos might try spiriting her away to Baelish's protection, with her aunt.

Good thinking, Dontos!  And it would be, if it didn't Suck To Be Sansa,  Talk about someone who can't catch a break.  All our wishful thinking about how and when Sansa might escape King's Landing, then this alternative.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it almost seems that with Joffrey dead, the story requires Sansa to have a new, deeply invested, over-familiar tormentor.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Thanks for the correction, Constantinople. I knew there was a Littlefinger connection in there somewhere, but I misremembered it. Good ear.

Maybe the "Red" was a listing of Ser Fool's wine preference?

Does anyone else want to meet the knight with thunderbolts on his shield? And get a look at his wife, Lady Shouter?

[Isazouzi]

So do we think Belon Greyjoy is not long for this world, as per Melisandre's leeches?

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

So do we think Belon Greyjoy is not long for this world, as per Melisandre's leeches?

Pretty safe assumption to make! So who is going to take him out? Boltons again?

[Isazouzi]

Honestly, I didn't expect Joffrey to die (so soon at least), I didn't believe in the "Power of the Leeches", even after Robb's death. It could all be a lucky coincidence for Melisandre, but yeah, Greyjoy IS going to die. What I like is that lots of people wanted to kill Joffrey and Robb, and yet The Red and Purple Weddings took us all by surprise. I doubt Greyjoy will be killed at a wedding. I doubt he would even attend a wedding. The Boltons are a safe bet, but I hope the show surprises us again, even if we're probably less invested in this character.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I doubt Greyjoy will be killed at a wedding. I doubt he would even attend a wedding.

Don't think anybody in Westeros will again, at this point!

I'm also not sure if the leeches are causing the "usurpers'" deaths but I do think story-wise, it is going to appear that way, even if Mel just got lucky. But hey if she can birth a shadow baby, why would she be wrong about the leeches?

[stillshimpy]

I'm also not sure if the leeches are causing the "usurpers'" deaths but I do think story-wise, it is going to appear that way, even if Mel just got lucky. But hey if she can birth a shadow baby, why would she be wrong about the leeches?

True, she's clearly hooked up with some kind of unseen power, no matter how much I suspect it sucks and probably lies to her too.  Now, Melisandre did seem to think that Gendry needed to be killed after the "proof" that the Lord of Light was using his blood to take out enemies.  Davos let him go.  We know from Dany's gig that "Only death can pay for life".  

So does that mean that Gendry is toast even if Melisandre doesn't sacrifice him?  Or does it mean that Melisandre would be forfeit it to that power for not providing the ritual sacrifice required in a magic rite (let it be, let it be)...or does the Lord of Light exact a different punishment?  Would it be Stannis who has to pay because he spoke the words?  I'm down with that. 

This is all just assuming that there is a tie between people dying and the Leech Drain and Grill show.  

[ChocButterfly]

Damn, I wish one of those leeches would've been for Bolton or Frey! But I'm ok with Greyjoy dying, too. Although with Joffrey and Robb, there were a lot of reasons for them to die. I'm not so sure about Greyjoy, he's there in his ugly castle doing nothing. Yara is the one doing all the fighting, I could see her dying soon. But who's going to off her dad? Theon?

The Dragon shadow over KL in Bran' s visions was definitely from the future, Danny's dragons approaching. So there's still a chance that she'll make it to Westeros one day, yay! I thought she'd never get there. One a second viewing I noticed as well the throne room with snow falling and the roof off, just like in Danny's vision. I don't know what that means, but probably that winter will cover the whole Westeros ans destroy everything. I also thought the tree told Bran to "look for me under the tree, North." Even norther?? Is this a WW communicating with Bran, by any chance? And why can't Bran just use his wolf to hunt for them? There's no reason for them to be starving if the wolf is hunting, duh!!

[arry the orphan]

 

Yara is the one doing all the fighting, I could see her dying soon. But who's going to off her dad? Theon?

Bolton said that he planned to exchange Theon against the moat held by the Iron Islanders. Perhaps Theon gets home and after Balon mocks him for losing his "favourite toy", Theon snaps and kills him!

[RadiantAerynSun]

I assumed the "look for me" voice was the "Three Eyed Raven" that Jojen said they had to look for.

 

Bolton said that he planned to exchange Theon against the moat held by the Iron Islanders. Perhaps Theon gets home and after Balon mocks him for losing his "favourite toy", Theon snaps and kills him!

I don't think Balon would be interested in trading Theon for ANYTHING much less a valuable piece of real estate.