Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

I know, well the Men of the Wall did say they were going to find Benjen Stark or die trying.  Somewhat foolishly I thought that meant that some would die AND then would find Benjen Stark.  Turns out it seemingly meant, "They all died trying."  Gah. 

 

And there are those -- mostly, keeping company with Dany -- who argue that Robert was not a legitimate monarch, either. Joffrey's just a double-bastard.

Okay, so this is information gleaned by an eagle-eyed  "I will take the time to freeze-framed this" viewer (I thought it was anothermi, actually, but I may be remembering the name incorrectly) when Ned looks at the books listing the information on what the various Baratheons looked like at birth (small, wrinkly , somewhat hairy ) and comes to the conclusion that all Baratheons have dark hair....anyway, turns out the Baratheons actually hard Targaryens mixed in with them.  

Doesn't make Robert the legitimate King, but I think it was supposed to establish his bloodline for having any claim (and I'm assuming that's where all the "kill all other Targaryens" thing became kind of important) .  So Robert did have a legitimate blood claim to the throne ....although it sort of looked like the kind of claim Lady Jane Grey had...very tenuous by most standards .  I think it's also what we speculated accounted for Shireen's face.  That she's got some of the blood of the dragon in her.  Whoever got that screengrab (again, I really think it was anothermi) actually posted it in the thread.  We saw the Baratheon family tree to an extent and there was Targ in it. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Speaking of Magic Ladies, whatever happened to the one with the face armor talking to Jorah in Qarth?

Yeah I was so sure she was going to be important and pop up in season 3, but no...

 

I know, well the Men of the Wall did say they were going to find Benjen Stark or die trying.  Somewhat foolishly I thought that meant that some would die AND then would find Benjen Stark.  Turns out it seemingly meant, "They all died trying."  Gah.

LOL you should know by now that on GoT, characters openly declaring they are going to accomplish X always means they will die trying. "I will save my father!" "I will save my sisters!" "we will show them what it is to lose what they love!"

Well ok with the exception of "find my dragons!"

[WhiteStumbler]

WhiteStumbler's Top Ten Guaranteed, Can't Fail, Take-It-To-The-Bank (of Braavos) Season 4 Predictions:

1. More Stark Suffering! Maybe no more death, because, well, who is there left to die? Sansa and Bran and Arya (and Jon Snuh) are safe as houses. I hope Rickon isn't the Stark Sacrificial Lamb this season. The Starks seem to become victims only when they start playing the Game, and what game can Rickon play (besides Smash the Walnut)?
2. Some Lannister Comeuppance! Not saying that anyone major will bite it (though pleasepleaseplease), just that even A Show can't have an entire House with Plot Armor (though Jaime having his hand chopped off counts as a setback, and they have an inflexible tyrant as the head of the house, so there is that...).
3. Someone I root for will die! And I will rend my clothes, swear off A Show forever, and be back the following week.
4. Someone I hate will (appear to) triumph! Probably "King" Joffrey Dahmer-Beiber. Or Balon Greyjoy. Or Walder Frey. Or Roose Bolton. Or...
5. Stannis will reach the Wall! He may not do anything there before the end of Ep. 10, but he will at least be within sight of the damn thing.
6. Cersei will drink wine! The Drinking Game of Thrones continues...
7. Bigger dragons! Om nom nom nom...
8. Jorah will remain Ser Friendzone! His love will remain unshaken, "until my last breath I will remember, long after I have forgotten my mother's face." Despite his mooning around after Dany, Jorah will "get nothing! You lose! Good day, ser!"
9. Hodor will say "Hodor", and the internet will explode! But it will have so much empathy and insight and concern behind the delivery.
10. Boobs! Because, HBO, duh.

It is known. I guess you could put "duh" after ALL of these. Except #5. That is an actual prediction, and I am sticking to it.

[janjan]

Staggering after the Stumbler crying, "Wait! Wait! What about ...!"

Sansa and Bran and Arya (and Jon Snuh) are safe as houses.

Sansa might be the sacrificial lamb needed to prolong Stark suffering (which, I agree, will be endless). If Ramsey Snow blabs that the Stark boys are alive, she's no longer heir to WinterFellDown and thus of no use to the Lannisters.

Some Lannister Comeuppance!

That could take the form of Margaery's outmaneuvering Cersei, Jamie's falling for Brienne (pleasepleaseplease), and Cersei's subsequent death from drowning in a butt of malmsey.

Stannis will reach the Wall! ... Bigger dragons!

Maybe at the same time! Tell me, will Stannis the Lobster turn bright red when cooked?

Jorah will "get nothing! You lose! Good day, ser!"

Yes! He lost Lady Mary, too, although for pure insufferable-ness, they were a good pair.

Boobs! Because, HBO, duh.

And maybe the prosthetic involved in Hodor's early scene will reemerge, perhaps as a consolation prize for Theon.

 

[abelard]

Constantinople, I actually am grooving to your spec that this whole story ends in Westeros just getting Shut Down.  Just...the whole thing.  WW take over the whole damn region and everyone that can hops a ship to Essos, where we assume the WW cannot follow (unless #icebridge).  Sort of like Pompeii, like a natural event makes the place unlivable for a while, and those who can get out in time do, but otherwise everyone is toast (frozen toast in this case).  I'd only be sad about Winterfell going away but then Winterfell's already ashes (though I still feel like one day, when all this business and the Long Winter to come is over, Lord Rickon will ride on in and rebuild!!!!  That's my hope for the Epilogue!!!).  

I also never thought about the fact that maybe Melisandre's Gendry-leech spell had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RED WEDDING.  Not that I ever thought her spell directly caused the Red Wedding, but I guess I just thought she sent some bad juju in support of the Lannister-Frey conspiracy, and so helped effectuate that event.  But...maybe not!  Maybe she just took the credit afterwards!!!  This is such a good point, and thanks to others also for pointing out that hey, Melisandre is the LoL's tool but she doesn't really know the plan and can't really bring into being every single last thing that she wants.  I do think she really has for real magic abilities, though (that Smoke Baby was no joke).  And I believed her when she looked into Arya's eyes and "saw" all the people she would kill.  START KILLING PEOPLE, ARYA!!!  I'm impatient, I know....

I like White Stumbler's list and agree with most of it, except that I think the Lannister that goes might be my fave, Tyrion.  My biggest predictions for this season, as I've said before, is that: 1) One Lannister dies, and 2) Shae also bites it.  If it's Tyrion + Shae that go this season, that will be sad, a bit like Robb and Talisa being killed in the same night. (Robb *meep*)

[90PercentGravity]

I can't bear the thought of Tyrion dying. I've often thought that the way he is written, he must be GRRM's favorite. I am hoping that is enough to keep him alive. Though, I base that off of TV Tyrion, of course, and it is possible it is not GRRM who likes him, but some of the producers. So, in that case, I guess all bets are off.

I definitely think Sansa will take over Catelyn's role as the Great Sufferer. I don't expect much suffering for Arya or the boys, though. Arya's about to head off on an adventure with her new pet dog, me thinks.

Jon Snow has a pissed off redhead after him, so he may see some suffering before it is all over.

[Pallas]

I like White Stumbler's list and agree with most of it, except that I think the Lannister that goes might be my fave, Tyrion.  My biggest predictions for this season, as I've said before, is that: 1) One Lannister dies, and 2) Shae also bites it.  If it's Tyrion + Shae that go this season, that will be sad, a bit like Robb and Talisa being killed in the same night. -- abelard

Fantastic list, WhiteStumbler. I think Tyrion is safer than Houses, abelard; in fact, I think Tyrion may be the last Westerosi seen standing. On the road to Somewhere, finally, with at least one companion, in a fade-out that eerilly resembles the final shot of Casablanca.  But I agree that one Lannister and perhaps Shae will not live to see another Father's Day.

Whether she lives or dies, though, I think this will be the season of Cersei's complete ruin and despair. She is going to realize her days of being The Queen, married to an indifferent Robert Baratheon, with a devoted Jaime and her adoring children at her side, were in fact her salad days. She is going to tear herself to pieces seeking to blame anyone else for what she knows (in fact) is her own doing. Jaime, I think, will garner the most blame: she is too afraid of both Joffrey and Tywin to attack them directly, and Jaime's new vulnerability will goad Cersei to new lows, along with his new clarity where Cersei is concerned. I think she may alternate between attacking Jaime and urging him to desperate acts. She will be sickened by his amity with Tyrion, not to mention his admiration for Brienne. She will feel, and rightly so, that even while the Lannisters have been winning everything, she has lost it all. 

[hobbers]

Hello fellow unspoiled posters and theorists! I have been wanting a place to cast my views for a while now and discovered the TWoP thread just before the start of season 3 but refrained myself from posting  because I was infuriatingly told after finishing season 1 that Robb Stark bit it. (Imagine being told this bit of news minutes after the 'King in the North' scene!) I now believe I am free to ponder unperturbed.

I would like to outline some of my views/predictions about the show:

At one point my 3 favourite characters were Ned, Renly and Robb but now I'm not sure who I like anymore other than Gendry (minor though he is), though I am not a fan at all of Danaris' plotline, despite having a man-crush on Iain Glen. I love the complexities of characters such as Jaime and Theon, I think they are impeccably handled, but I wasn't a fan of how Robb and John's love lifes were written. 

My predictions are as follows: There are 4 untouchables in this show as far as I can see, who will not die until at least the final series. These are Arya, Danaris, Tyrion and John Snow. If any of these die in season 4 I will eat a hat.

In terms of deaths I predict:

• Tywin. I like the idea of Joffrey doing this as without Tywin his hold on the throne diminishes considerably (Joffrey Shooting himself in the foot)                                                                                                                                  
• Eegrit (sp?). Possibly at the hands of John himself or a Night's Watch baddy.                                                                  
• One of Ramsey/Joffrey. I count one psychopath too many.                                                                                                  
• Many, many more, though I don't want to make my post any longer.

[abelard]

My predictions are as follows: There are 4 untouchables in this show as far as I can see, who will not die until at least the final series. These are Arya, Danaris, Tyrion and John Snow. If any of these die in season 4 I will eat a hat.

 

hobbers, I am glad that you and Pallas are so certain that Tyrion is safe.  My fear for him this season is based simply on the math that surely, one Lannister must go (we've lost 2 Baratheons, 3 Starks, and the last Greyjoy son's had his manparts cut off) -- it is the Lannisters' turn to lose *someone*.  And given the way this show goes, I'm just fearful that the Lannister who dies will be the only good one in the bunch.  But I would love for Pallas' prediction of a Casablanca-like ending for Tyrion.  Otoh, I would also like Tyrion to end as the Hand to Queen Danerys or King Jon, or whoever it ends up being.  Arya can be Captain of the Kingsguard, and a Dragonrider (ha!).  Bran can be Grand Maester :).  Rickon can be Lord of Winterfell (my personal favorite spec).  

At one point my 3 favourite characters were Ned, Renly and Robb 

 Whoa.  That's rough.  

 

 

In terms of deaths I predict:

Tywin.

I have had this thought, also; upthread I speculated that Tywin might be a good death plotwise, b/c his loss would severely hurt the Lannisters (they totally depend on him for strategy and any overall cohesion they have).  But if Tywin dies before he realizes that his cupbearer at Harrenhal was Arya Stark, I will be really angry.  REALLY angry.  After their awesome scenes in S2, I just deeply want Tywin and Arya to meet again, and for Tywin to know that she's a Stark. 

Edited April 5, 2014 by abelard

[90PercentGravity]

Theon with a prosthetic ding dong would be kind of cool. Wood or steel? Iron?

[hobbers]

abelard , my reasoning for a Tywin death is as you say. This show thrives on instability and killing Tywin is needed in order to throw the Lannisters into chaos. As for him and Arya, there's as much as 10 eps for that to happen (how close is Arya to King's Landing?) but I wouldn't count on it. Even with the knowledge that Robb would die at some stage I was convinced he'd survive the wedding cause he had to see Theon again. He didn't.

 

the last Greyjoy son's had his manparts cut off

Please, I still have nightmares. The weirdest thing was, only after a split second glance into a box which could have contained anything, Balon was like "yep that's definitely my son's dick"...

[AlphaLine]

I predict that at least one of the following will reappear this season: Allister Thorne, Janos Slynt, Benjen Stark.

Don't really know where the wall storyline is going this season but I just think it will be very important. There are too many factions there now, Wildlings with Mance, Wildlings with Ygrit, Night's watch, Stannis, Bran, white walkers and zombies. It will be interesting to see how these factions interact with each other. I bet Stannis will want to destroy Mance because he calls himself 'King', but other than that, it's very unpredictable.

Also count me among those not much interested in Danarys' storyline. I hope they won't do another 'freeing slaves from evil city' one, they did that twice already and it's boring. More probably it will be about the love interest Dario, which I don't care for either. Maybe meet the Dothraki ( meh ), or have her go to Bravos, or something. But really she needs to drop all these side things and go to Westeros asap. I suppose that will happen at the end of this season, they can't really put it off any more.

Edited April 5, 2014 by AlphaLine

[janjan]

I'd love them to bring Benjen Stark back! (Must say I don't remember who the other two characters.)

Mindwalker, Janos Slynt was the captain of the gold cloaks who betrayed Ned. He was rewarded with Harrenhall, but later banished by Tyrion. "I'm not questioning your honor, I'm denying its existence."

Alistaire Thorne was the trainer at the wall who picked on Jon until Commander Mormont sent him to King's Landing to deliver the severed hand of a wight, to strike fear into the hearts of the Southerners and induce them to send reinforcements to the wall. He never made it.

I hope Jamie will keep his oath/ promise regarding Sansa. I'm not yet convinced he has changed.

I believe that was Brienne's oath -- to trade Jaime for both Stark girls and bring them back. But by now, back where? IIRC, Jaime's only oath was to tell Tywin that Roose Bolton is innocent.

Loras is my favorite smaller character

Mine was Syrio. I nurture the hope that when Arya rubs the coin and goes to Braavos to meet Jaqu'n (sp?), he will have morphed back into Syrio. Hey, I can dream, can't I? We never actually saw Syrio get killed.

 

 

 

 

 

[abelard]

Even with the knowledge that Robb would die at some stage I was convinced he'd survive the wedding cause he had to see Theon again. He didn't.

 

Ugh.  I know.  Totally.  MWAH.  Beginning with Ned's execution, I have noticed that this show doesn't do "lasts" -- like heavy, meaningful, last conversations between characters, people getting the final confrontation they want, etc.  It's so frustrating!!!  Ned's last conversation with Cat was in like episode 3 or 4 or something, and he doesn't get to say one word to Sansa and Arya on that platform.  He looks at Sansa screaming/crying, looks for Arya by the statue of Baelor and she's not there, and that's it.  Ned dies with a question in his heart about Arya (maybe a hope that Yoren got her), and then meets his end.  Kaput.  Robb didn't get a last conversation with Theon, Cat didn't get a tearful reunion with the girls.  

Mine was Syrio. I nurture the hope that when Arya rubs the coin and goes to Braavos to meet Jaqu'n (sp?), he will have morphed back into Syrio. Hey, I can dream, can't I? We never actually saw Syrio get killed. 

 I guess I don't think that Jaquen (sp?) was Syrio - I have pondered that question a lot - but I do think now that maybe shapeshifting is something that Braavos swordsmen just can do, a battle trick that maybe the highest eschelon of knight in that city/state learns.  So...maybe that's how Syrio got out of KL?  If he was able to defeat the last of the Lannisters' guards, he could have shapeshifted and just walked out of the city.  I don't know...I'm reaching.  I desperately want for Arya to go to Braavos and find Jaquen and Syrio and finish her training with them.  I guess that means *my* favorite lesser characters were the Braavosi dudes.

But otoh, The Hound won't be a bad trainer for Arya.  The Hound always says he likes killing best of all, and Arya seems well on the road to feeling the same.  If anyone can teach her to be bloodthirsty, either alone or as part of an army, it's The Hound.  I wonder though, where are the Hound and Arya heading?  Where to go next?  What do do now?  Not back to KL, I would think.  But then...where, and for what purpose?  Further north maybe?  But only crazy people would head further north now.  

Editing to add a question about Sansa & The Hound: What was the point of all the interaction btwn Sansa and The Hound in S2?  They had *so* many scenes together, and he saved her from those rapists/murderes, and their "relationship" or whatever seemed to reach some kind of climax (non-sexual) in the Blackwater episode, where the Hound asks Sansa to come with him, and tells her everyone in her life is a killer and she better get used to them, and she says, You won't hurt me, and he says, No I won't, and then I guess he just leaves her in KL and rides off (and as we know, gets captured by the Brotherhood).  So...what the heck was the point of all that? 

Edited April 5, 2014 by abelard

[stillshimpy]

Hey hobbers, welcome to the Spitball Wall. 

 

 

I like White Stumbler's list and agree with most of it, except that I think the Lannister that goes might be my fave, Tyrion.  My biggest predictions for this season, as I've said before, is that: 1) One Lannister dies, and 2) Shae also bites it.  If it's Tyrion + Shae that go this season, that will be sad, a bit like Robb and Talisa being killed in the same night. (Robb *meep*)

I think that Tryion is safe because he's one of the misfits of the story.  The Broken people.  Someone never really accepted in the Seven Kingdoms anyway.  Someone the Seven Kingdoms citizens might look at and think, "Better off dead, wouldn't you say?" and the story has told us as much too.  Same thing with poor, broken Bran.  

I do think that Tyrion will end up losing every person he cares about though. I treasure a (probably silly) hope that Shae's "If he wants me to go, he can tell me himself" thing will eventually lead to Tyrion telling her to go just so that I don't have to see her die.  I never thought I'd like Shae, but boy did she win me over by chasing after Cersei's spy and putting a knife to her throat after Sansa's Sheet incident.  Also for not taking it out on Sansa when Tyrion had to marry her.  

So Shae's totally gonna die, just because I think she sort of rocks. 

I don't know that I agree that this will be Cersei's bitterest season though. I think that was last season.  Boy was she ever alone, alone, alone all season long. She tried to tell Tywin that she was the most valuable of his children and he basically laughed at the idea.  She hasn't seen Jaime in forever at this stage.  As weird a relationship as that is, it meant something to Cersei.  I actually don't think she'll take his maiming all that badly.  I don't think she'll consider him as deformed.  It's a battle-centric world, war wounds are commonplace enough that I doubt she'll be repulsed.  

However, I think you're right that Jaime's friendship (I think that's all it really is) with Brienne will both confound and irritate her and possibly be the reason Jaime no longer feels as drawn to Cersei.  Brienne seems like the sort of person that Cersie -- who isn't known for her sensitivity -- would just heartlessly mock, to her face. I think that might have been something Jaime would have enjoyed in the past, but will now upset him.  In fact, I think how people treat Brienne and his reaction to it, will be another step in Jaime's progress and that he'll have simply outgrown Cersei and his relationship with her.  

Plus, their son being SUCH a psycho I think will give them both pause.  I don't think they realized that prior to this.  Plus, Cersei said to Tyrion that sometimes she thought they were being punished for all that they did. I think she might really believe that even more with maimed Jaime showing up. 

 

ETA: You know, for all Robb's death was horrible, it was at least relatively swift. It was almost a cousin of merciful.  Robb was happy as could be, almost right up until the moment he had to watch his pregnant wife die too.   Desecration of corpses aside, that was -- by the standards of this show -- a fairly merciful end.  Ned sat moldering away in a dungeon with a leg wound to boot for a while.  But Robb's was (again, all things being relative) a near Greenpeace end compared to Theon's current life (merde). 

Edited April 5, 2014 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

What was the point of all the interaction btwn Sansa and The Hound in S2?

I'd guess it was to shown that under that furry exterior, he has a soft heart. We saw it again -- and he probably surprised himself -- when he rescued Arya at the Red Wedding even though she no longer has any ransom value.

So Shae's totally gonna die

None too soon, if you ask me (which nobody did). But my Tyrion loves her, so I guess I have to put up with her. When Tyrion shipped Mycella off to Dorne, Cersei threatened him with losing someone he loves. That doesn't bode well for Shae.

 

 

[hobbers]

A return of Benjen would be fantastic! I have all but given up on it though. To Thorne and Slynt, meh, I'll take or leave them. (The idea of Thorne aimlessly marauding around Westeros with a completely faded map, quizzical look on his face and a hand bouncing around his neck ala Jaime is too funny). I'm actually not that confident about Stannis ending up at the wall. I can imagine a scene where John and Mance are locked in battle, a horn sounds in the distance and we're meant to think it's Stannis but it actually ends up being the walkers. Stannis' plotline seriously needs to mingle with someone else's though, it felt far too static and isolated last year.

I think guessing where Arya will end up this year is akin to throwing a dart blindfolded and guessing where it'll end up. I know she's wandering the same area as Blackfish, and characters have a habit of bumping into each other in the woods. The Sansa/Hound interactions can be seen as a counterpoint to the Arya/Hound ones. It serves the purpose of highlighting the differences in the two Stark daughters and also keeps a connection between the two via the character of the Hound.

I agree stillshimpy. Jaime will have outgrown Cersei, I'm looking forward to some conflict on this front.

PS: Is Catelyn's brother staying with Walder Frey or being brought to King's Landing to pledge fealty or something? Am I the only one wanting to see more of him (and his extremely attractive wife)? Their awkward conversations would be terrific.

[Chris Ashe]

Hi everyone, new poster here. Started watching the show from season one and was sort of a slow burner for me at the start until they mentioned the word Dragon which intensified my interest. As both a lover of fantasy magic and political intrigue I must say its the political infighting and chess like moves by Littlefinger and the Spider that has me enthralled. Favourite character is easily Arya and I have been watching this forum for a while, from your previous website and with the fourth season on the horizon I finally took the plunge...

[janjan]

I finally took the plunge

<comes running with towel>

Hi Chris - welcome to the Spitball Wall. I'm sure we'll be serving up lotsa dragons this season, and more intrigue than New Jersey politics. <wiping vigorously> Glad to have you all warm and dry and on board.

 

 

[gingerella]

Twenty-four hours and counting...and so our watch begins...

[90PercentGravity]

I'm so excited that I totally psyched myself into thinking today was Sunday, then I was crazy disappointed. I went in to the guide to see what time it would be on and then freaked out about seeing the write-up before realizing that it was in Spanish (I was on HBO Latino, apparently). Since I no speako espanisho I did not have a clue what it said.

I also just posted on Facebook that I am leaving until GoT ends. I came way too close to getting spoiled a few times last season. Not taking any chances this season. Facebook and Twitter are off. It will be good for me.

Edited April 6, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[gingerella]

Hmmm, methinks we were infiltrated by Bookwalkers...this thread was about 7 or 8 pages a little while ago and now it is only 3...Has one of Littlefinger's minions stolen our posts?

[stillshimpy]

No, gingerella, they just increased the number of pages per posts, -- probably by double -- which halved the number of pages.  

Later I will perform the classic "Who's on First?" skit, only with "Who's been flayed?" because it is GoT day, peeps of the spitball wall!  Thank you, Which Tyler, and to all that Walk with Pages, yet still aren't bad bookwalkers.

In WhiteStumbler's list he included, "Stannis gets to the Wall" and I'm sincerely hoping that it doesn't take the entire season to get him there.  Last season suffered from a bit of "okay, they do seem to sort of be meandering around a lot". 

For pure, aw, that would be nice...but it would never, ever happen it occurred to me that Gendry has been sent back to King's Landing.  Way, way back in the first scenes of the show (that weren't about our intrepid Ranger party in the snow with guts and dead people walking), Robert ordered (more or less) Sansa engaged to his son to join their houses.  It would be nice if Gendry got Sansa the hell out of King's Landing , they sailed off to some place pretty and did just that.  Yes, Sansa's married to Tyrion.  

I sort of don't care.  I have next to no romance in my soul, at all, but Ned Stark gave up his long treasured honor, trying to buy some happiness and peace for his children (worked out about as well as all well-intentioned loving acts do in the 7) .  I'd like that sacrifice (yo, there was plenty of blood with it) to finally invoke some magic. 

Realistically Sansa could never be happy as anything other than a very well off person, so since Varys hands out bags of diamonds , I'd vote for an escape across the sea.   Unfortunately, the last time I really hoped one of the Stark kids could just be happy for a damned change, Robb watched his wife being stabbed to death in the baby.  His mother got to watch him pitifully die.  Arya witnessed the worst Mardi Gras float ever.  Rickon was abandoned AGAIN by his only remaining family and Bran set out for certain death. 

I should actively hope for them all to have their asses kicked, endlessly.  It's the only way to change the flow of this story stream. 

In all seriousness though, I think if we're going to lose a Stark this season, Sansa is the one I think most likely to perish. 

[Pallas]

Thank you, Which Tyler!

Did a re-watch this weekend and was amazed at how the saga knits together more closely, at the same time it opens wide. Last year I predicted that Season 3 would end with a big sorcery visual, on a par with Season 1: Dragons! and Season 2, White Walkers!  Nope. But still, what came through for me about the season was the tension between (1) magic and nature, and (2) nature and humankind. Tension because in each dyad these elements are now at war, and yet in harmony. Competitors and complements. Magic was still the season's biggest new character, or at least, newly recognized as such by more and more of the other characters.

On Team Magic:

1. Melisandre and, somewhat reluctantly, Stannis. She sees stuff -- big stuff like, "Who knew: the War of the Five Kings is bullshit."  Also smokes kings and blows rings.  Follows the Red God.  Location: heading to the Wall
2. Thoros and the Brotherhood. He harasses highborns and scavenges, sells people. Also resurrects folk: or at least one weary guy. Follows the Red God.  Location: In the North
3. Brandon and the Reeds. He sees stuff and wargs animals and humans. Follows the 3-Eyed Raven.  Location: headed to and over the Wall.
4. The White Walkers. Follow a few millenia. They kill people and then resurrect them, en masse and in bad CGI.  
5.  Dany and her dragons (that is, if we agree that dragons are more magical than natural; I'm not sure I do). Follows her destiny. Location, as far away from Westeros as  there are seasons to the saga, if I'm not wrong...  

In the opposition, on Team Magic-Be-Damned:

1. Davos. Told Stannis straight-out and passionately that the Kingdom must not be won by magic; Stannis countered pedantically with the Targeryns and their dragons; also, Smoke Baby. Location: headed north with Stannis and Melisandre.
2. Arya, kinda. Told Thoros that her god was Death. Location: in the North, with the Hound, headed who knows where.  
3. Osha and other wildlings. Think magic sucks. They would know.  Location: In the North, headed with Rickon toward the Umbers.
4. The NIght's Watch, save for Sam and probably Maester Aegon. Lapsed believers. Location: at the Wall and unfortunately for Westeros, all that currently stands against the White Walkers.  
5. Varys, who both believes and hates with all his heart. Has laid in a private store, for a rainy day.

What I really admire is how these teams are not in any way arranged as Right/Wrong, Good/Evil. Even people naturally disposed to one team pretty quickly fall in with the other, as their experiences dictate. It's almost as if some people vote for the Sun and others for the Stars -- missing that both Sun and Stars are part of the same realm. The saga itself doesn't seem to take sides.   

[abelard]

Pallas, that was simply beautiful.  A gorgeous analysis of this entire show.  Bravo (Braavos??)!!!!!!  I remember spec on the other board that the events of GoT are about the return of magic into this world - but it appears that across the Narrow Sea, in Essos/Pentos etc., there has always been magic.  The Warlocks of Qarth, the Lord of Light (isn't that who Varys's sorcerer sacrificed Varys's...parts to?), the Blood Magic that essentially killed Drogo.  And Dany's dragons were born over there.  Westeros, otoh, seems to have really done away with magic over the centuries.  Yes, Targeryens conquered the 7K with their dragons, and I do believe that dragons are more magic than natural (mainly b/c it appears that there must be a human Dragon to "birth" them or nurture them/parent them in some way - and a human that cannot be burned by fire is certainly magical).  But the dragons as a species died off in Westeros, also.  The Targeryens magic could not sustain itself in the 7K for some reason.  I wonder why.  But anyway, whatever has made Westeros a land of No Magic when it was once full of magic (hey, WW!), and whatever keeps magic going across the Sea, there is surely a tension there.  I will be thinking about Pallas' Team Magic vs. Team Magic-can-go-f**k-itself all this season long for sure.

I'm not sure which team Arya is on, however.  Arya seems against the Brotherhood (which is defo Team Magic), but then again one of the last things Jaquen said to her was that she had many names to offer the Red God, and I'm pretty sure we established that the Red God is the LoL.  Is this Red God also Syrio's God of Death?  I believe he is.  "There is only one God.  The God of Death."  The Red God/LoL followers also seem monotheistic, like Syrio.  It almost seems Arya's fate to become a follower of the God of Death, and to offer up all of her victims to him.  And perhaps to learn Jaquen's "faceless man" trick.  I'm not loving that destiny for Arya but it seems the most likely at this point.  ETA: Just saw the scene where Arya leaves the Brotherhood, and she says, the LoL is not her one true good.  And Thoros asks who is, and she replies, "Death."  So in her mind, anyway, the LoL and Syrio's God of Death are not the same. 

Btw, I think Jaquen made clear that he and Syrio are not the same kind of warrior even if they are both Braavosi.  Arya said (end of S2): "My dancing master was from Braavos."  Jaquen said, "To be a dancing master is one thing.  To be a faceless man is another thing entirely." (changes face) (not the exact dialogue, recalling from memory)

And to hobbers and janjan, thank you for answering my question about what the point was of all the interaction between Sansa and the Hound.  I think you are both right, that the point was: a) to show the Hound has a heart, a heart that showed up again with Arya when he saved her after the Red Wedding, and b) to keep some thread of connection between the two sisters, in the figure of the Hound.  In a way, he has been a direwolf for them both.

I would now like to propose that, despite shimpy's darkest fears about Sansa this season, I think Sansa will be gotten out of KL, and I am going to guess that Brienne will do it.  We talked about Brienne being a kind of direwolf to Catelyn, and Cat basically told Brienne not to protect her (Cat), but to protect the girls by getting them away from Joffrey and the Queen.  Brienne is in KL now and surely she will fulfill her promise to Lady Catelyn.  Brienne has a sh*t ton of honor and she will not forget her vow.  As soon as she sees Sansa I think she will start plotting that girl's escape.  However, I must say that Brienne's honor, like the main Stark family's honor, has not done her many favors so far.  So maybe Brienne will get Sansa out of there...and will pay some horrible price.  (The Lady Fair versus *two* Bears?)

ETA: I'm rewatching S3 right now (I'm at 3.07, hoping to finish b/f the premiere tonight) and just realized why we got so many scenes of Robb and Talisa just...being happy together, making out, telling each other how much they love each other, etc.  Post-Red Wedding, I think it's so that we could see that Robb had some happiness in his life.  I actually really like rewatching the Robb/Talisa scenes now, even though as the show was unfolding I thought those were boring and a HUGE waste of time.  But now that I know how they died, and when, it is actually really comforting to know for sure that they were blissfully happy, that Robb had some non-war-related joy in his life.  I am so glad for that character, that he knew what it was to fall in love, have a happy marriage, be a fantastic husband, even though it was for just a few months. 

Edited April 6, 2014 by abelard

[Pallas]

For pure, aw, that would be nice...but it would never, ever happen it occurred to me that Gendry has been sent back to King's Landing.  Way, way back in the first scenes of the show (that weren't about our intrepid Ranger party in the snow with guts and dead people walking), Robert ordered (more or less) Sansa engaged to his son to join their houses.  It would be nice if Gendry got Sansa the hell out of King's Landing , they sailed off to some place pretty and did just that.  Yes, Sansa's married to Tyrion. 

I sort of don't care.  I have next to no romance in my soul, at all, but Ned Stark gave up his long treasured honor, trying to buy some happiness and peace for his children (worked out about as well as all well-intentioned loving acts do in the 7) .  I'd like that sacrifice (yo, there was plenty of blood with it) to finally invoke some magic.

Aw, shimpy! Probably takes a non-romantic to perceive hope within the flames. Sansa and Gendry: of course. In the "third time is charmed" subdivision of Ned and Robert's efforts to unite their families, which began with Lyanna/Robert and segued into the macabre with Sansa/Joffrey. And answering Ned's prayer that Sansa come to love a strong, kind man. Also, unbending the twisted triangle that was Arya/Sansa/Joffrey, where Joffrey brought about the death of the younger sister's lowborn friend and set the sisters even more askew.  

Now, how to bring it about? If Gendry makes his way back to Flea Bottom, how does he cross paths with Sansa? Margaery is the poor man's Dany of Flea Bottom and might provide safe passage: but would she lend a hand to help Sansa desert the Lannisters? Would Shae? Would Tyrion? Much as I've come to appreciate Sansa as a survivor, nothing in me sees her donning a cloak and slipping out of the Keep on her own: really, for those very same qualities that have kept her alive this long. Still, Gendry's talents as a swordsmith might always come in handy, in tying him back into the narrative. Plenty of backs to be stabbed in King's Landing, and those backs aren't going to stab themselves.   

[stillshimpy]

I'm with you all the way on that, Pallas, Sansa will never get herself out of King's Landing, particularly not after she had to be rescued from the mob by the Hound.  She's not like Shae and she can't lay any claim to "I can take care of myself" , but she's not a coward either.  Unlike Arya, she'd have a very difficult time blending in anywhere.  A change of hairstyle and clothing is just not going to help her much.  So she actually needs someone to help provide a way out of there for her.  I'm not holding that against her.  She's all of sixteen, if that. 

I actually don't think Margaery would help Sansa escape unless there was decidedly something in it for the Tyrells.  I do think she'd try to make sure Sansa wasn't brutalized or killed by Joffrey though, so I do think she try to intervene there.  But until she's safely married to Joffrey and safely knocked up with his spawn (or what she can pass off as his) I can't see Margaery sticking her neck out for anyone.  Shae would, I think without a doubt, help get Sansa the hell out of King's Landing.  Not just because it would make her happier than hell to not have Tyrion's wife hanging about. 

So yeah, I'd love it if Gendry got Sansa the hell out of there.  She HAS to have lost her sense of romance by now.  Poor Sansa, she'd have happily -- at least in concept because she didn't understand that Loras would never, ever love her as more than a friend -- married Loras and gotten the hell out of King's Landing.  I really don't think that in the final analysis she was wrong to not go anywhere with Littlefinger.  Littlefinger only makes a good traveling companion on the road to all levels of hell.  

Dany and her dragons (that is, if we agree that dragons are more magical than natural; I'm not sure I do). Follows her destiny. Location, as far away from Westeros as  there are seasons to the saga, if I'm not wrong...

 

I agree that not all dragons are magic, but Dany's dragons I think are absolutely magical.  They were hatched from petrified eggs from an ancient time, if we're to believe anything we've been told.  So Dragons might not be the stuff of magic, but Dany had to invoke some ancient stuff to bring them back from the Land of Nod or wherever they went for so long.  

[Pallas]

Wonderful post, abelard, and thank you!

...across the Narrow Sea, in Essos/Pentos etc., there has always been magic.  The Warlocks of Qarth, the Lord of Light (isn't that who Varys's sorcerer sacrificed Varys's...parts to?), the Blood Magic that essentially killed Drogo.  And Dany's dragons were born over there.  Westeros, otoh, seems to have really done away with magic over the centuries.

My lord yes. I had never noted that Dany's dragons were born in the East -- even though it was clear that something inimical to dragons had killed them off in the West. In a way, maybe that's one more reason the Dothraki don't cross the Sea. Their horses, and, their horses know better.

That's part of what I mean about magic/nature and nature/humankind's being set at odds yet striving toward harmony. The best example is the human/sygil symbiosis we discussed at TWoP last year. How the humans seems to gain in strength and even in wisdom, the closer they united with their sigil-animal. Starks and the direwolves. Targaryens and the dragons. Dothraki (a people and not a House) and the horses.  Seers and the ravens. Versus Robert who hunted stag and whose House is flaming out in spectacular fashion.  Which is why I long to see a lion's pelt grace the floor of almost any Lannister's chambers.

Arya seems against the Brotherhood (which is defo Team Magic), but then again one of the last things Jaquen said to her was that she had many names to offer the Red God, and I'm pretty sure we established that the Red God is the LoL.  Is this Red God also Syrio's God of Death?  I believe he is.  "There is only one God.  The God of Death."

I think Jaquen made clear that he and Syrio are not the same kind of warrior even if they are both Braavosi.  Arya said (end of S2): "My dancing master was from Braavos."  Jaquen said, "To be a dancing master is one thing.  To be a faceless man is another thing entirely." (changes face) (not the exact dialogue, recalling from memory)

Ah, but I think Syrio is not at all a follower of the Red God/Lord of Light: the God of Resurrection, it would seem. As you point out in the second quote, Syrio and Jaquen seem to play for different Braavosi teams -- just as there are believers/non-believers and believers in many different creeds, within any one people. Syrio's skills are extraordinary but not supernatural. "Practice practice practice" and you get to get sassy with death, but not shape-shift. That requires...something else.

Arya may have to choose a creed. So far she's witnessed some wonders courtesy of the Lord of Light but kept her arms crossed, her feet on the ground and her coin in her pocket...mostly, I think, because of her ties to her family. Had she actually been reunited with them, she might have given up the quest to re-make herself as a killer, avenging their name. Now she has nothing to lose, and she's probably willing to pay any price: even belief, if that's what it takes to make a smallish girl-child into a shape-shifting assassin.

[abelard]

 Which is why I long to see a lion's pelt grace the floor of almost any Lannister's chambers.

Ah, but I think Syrio is not at all a follower of the Red God/Lord of Light: the God of Resurrection, it would seem. As you point out in the second quote, Syrio and Jaquen seem to play for different Braavosi teams -- just as there are believers/non-believers and believers in many different creeds, within any one people. Syrio's skills are extraordinary but not supernatural. "Practice practice practice" and you get to get sassy with death, but not shape-shift. That requires...something else.

Oh I love the idea that Robert hunting stag in the woods was symbolically (or in this world, really) linked to his house's demise.  A lion pelt on a Lannister floor...interesting idea, b/c one thing about the lion in English imagery is that lions don't exist in England, English people in the middle ages knew of lions from the Middle East, from fighting the Crusades. (I think...I'm not a scholar of the period, just an avid watcher of BBC documentaries about it, so others should fee free to correct me on this point).  Anyway, stags are real in Westeros, fish are real, direwolves are real, dragons are real (or were real, and are real on the other side of the Sea), flayed men are real.  Where are the lions of Westeros?  (And where are the KRAKENS?  Still a great spec...)

As for the Syrio vs. Jaquen difference, I think you are exactly right.  I amended my earlier post after watching the scene where Arya makes a clear distinction between the Brotherhood's LoL and Syrio's God of Death.  As you say, Syrio and Jaquen must serve different Braavosi gods.  God of Death is not at all a God of Resurrection (I love your argument abt this).  God of Death is about finality, an ending, no magic.  And that's why you tell him, Not Today.  The LoL seems to hold out the promise of resurrection, of new life or different life (smoke babies etc.).  He needs sacrifices (body parts, blood, or entire bodies), to offer these transformations of not-life into life, or of not-king into king, or not-powerful into powerful.  Or transformations of one face to another (life-to-new-life).  Arya won't choose that transformational god.  Methinks she will follow the God of Death, hardcore.  Or maybe she will realize at some point that she will have to choose, between two of her teachers (Syrio and Jaquen).  Both will help her get to her end goal (her crossing names off her list).  But which will she prefer?  Right now she is in the God of Death's camp but I guess that could change.  

[Pallas]

I agree that not all dragons are magic, but Dany's dragons I think are absolutely magical.  They were hatched from petrified eggs from an ancient time, if we're to believe anything we've been told.  So Dragons might not be the stuff of magic, but Dany had to invoke some ancient stuff to bring them back from the Land of Nod or wherever they went for so long.

 

Perfect distinction, shimpy, and you're right. Dany's dragons in the here and now  = magic, big time.  One more note re: sigil animal/human symbiosis. I want to think -- I want to see -- that the Boltons really fucked themselves when they tried for "innovative," "edgy" and "something that really POPS." 

[Helena Dax]

 

English people in the middle ages knew of lions from the Middle East, from fighting the Crusades.

I'm not an expert either but the Romans used lions in the circus and Mark the Evangelist's symbol is a lion. So I guess they knew about lions from other sources too.

ETA I  think lions appear in the  Bible too, a prophet (Daniel?)  helps one.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Helena Dax

[stillshimpy]

Versus Robert who hunted stag and whose House is flaming out in spectacular fashion.  Which is why I long to see a lion's pelt grace the floor of almost any Lannister's chambers.

When did Robert hunt Stag though? He was killed hunting boar, wasn't he? I'm honestly asking, I don't recall any other hunts and he was hunting boar when he was gored. I always referred to that hunt as The Stomp Hunt, because surreptitious would not be an appropriate word to use for their approach.  I'm surprised the boar didn't have time to lay out a trap worthy of Bond villain, god knows they had enough audible warning.  

Now, I remember the dead Stag and dead Direwolf in the first season, but they hadn't been hunted, they killed each other which is a piece of symbolism that still troubles me and makes me (once again) fear for Rickon and possibly Gendry (although Gendry may yet be saved by his illegitimacy from that seem curse. 

[90PercentGravity]

I think that Jaquen's comment about a dancing master vs a faceless man can be taken either way. Maybe a faceless man is like that guy from The Pretender and once he takes on a new identity, he also gets all the skills associated with said identity.

Okay, I never actually saw that show called The Pretender, but I think that was how it worked.

[WhiteStumbler]

Abelard: another reason for all the Robb / Talissa scenes is just so that the dagger is sharp and long when that entire storyline is severed. I am in about the same place in my rewatch and all of that breaks my heart knowing (now) what is coming. I honestly feel manipulated. I get that it ups the stakes and poignancy of R&T, but damn.

Another thought I had, sort of inspired by the 'maybe everyone leaves Westeros and heads East' spec upthread was this: what if Dany decides that her real destiny is NOT is Westeros at all? Her new fav gig is "Breaker of Chains". No slaves in Westeros = Dany stays on the side of the Narrow Sea with actual slaves?

Lastly, Locke and the Sweeping Savior. Both need to die. Bolton Bastard did say at one point to Theon 'you told me the Stark boys are alive; imagine the hunt THAT would be?!' He needs to die. Yara, where are you?!?

[hobbers]

abelard, this is definitely the season where Sansa finally gets out of the capital but I also can't see it happening without a price. I can see Brienne (who is in for Ned Stark KL experience if you ask me) getting Sansa out of King's Landing, but again we're left with an Arya situation of where would anyone take her? I'm not so sure Arya will go to Braavos as much as Braavos will keep coming to Arya.

With regards to 'magic'-vs-'f*ck magic' you can put me firmly in the 'f*ck magic' corner though I'm aware it's a losing side. I wonder what side the Westros faith and the maesters are on? I am a bit confused about these two organisations, are they linked in any way? I've rewatched some early s02 eps there and there's this scene between Luwin and Bran where Luwin is poo-pooing magic and says only a handful of maesters even attempt the special magic chain or whatever it is so I put them in the 'f*ck magic' corner too. But if they are linked with the Westeros faith then maybe they're pro magic as any religious organisation thrives on perceived miracles.

Luwin goes on to say dragons, giants and children of the forest are all long gone. He has been proved wrong on the first two, who are these children of the woods and will we ever see them? I am going with yes. (Or perhaps we've already seen them? Could be what the walkers call their animated corpses). Has anyone else ever mentioned them?

[janjan]

Hobbers: who are these children of the woods and will we ever see them?

Maybe Bran and Jojen?

[abelard]

hobbers and janjan: Yup I'm going to put those weird Reed kids (Jojen and his sister) in the "children of the woods" camp.  I totally forgot that Maester Luwin said those three things were gone (dragons, giants, children of the woods), was that in S1?  I love that b/c it's the kind of foreshadowing that's not hit-me-over-the-head, but just a weensy hint that turns out to be pretty major.  HOWEVER, wth the Reeds are about, what they want, is beyond me.  I even pretty much trust that they are on the side of good - but wth are they trying to get done???  Do they think that Bran can end the WW invasion or something?  I just don't get it.  I'd actually really appreciate someone explaining those kids' agenda to me.

I also think Rickon has the same kind of magic that Bran does and am surprised the Reeds never brought it up.  Rickon had the same vision of Ned in the crypt as Bran did.  There are a couple of times it has seemed to me that Rickon has something like the Sight or whatever the Reeds call it.  Okay maybe not that weird time-traveling (or time-seeing) thing but everything Rickon has said has been true.  Like Bran said, after Robb left, that Robb and Mother will go get Father and they will all come back.  And Rickon said, very sure of himself, "No.  They won't."  I dunno, maybe it's reading too much into it, but I just think Rickon is gifted, like Bran is gifted, maybe not the same gifts, but similar ones.  Poor Rickon even gets overlooked by the children of the woods!!!  (But maybe if Rickon has some kind of magic, that's just to show that Starks, as a line, have that magic in them, and that's one reason they're important, and maybe even a reason they are the ruling house of the North...?)

Helena Dax: As for the lions in the Bible and in Rome - yup, Rome also had a lot of dealings with the Middle East and got their lions from Africa, and the Bible comes from the Middle East too.  So yes the English would have read about lions from a lot of places.  But they still wouldn't have had any of their own, I believe (that weren't seriously imported from Africa/the Middle East). 

Oh pallas I had another thought about house sigils: maybe the Bolton bastard is strengthening the Bolton house by actually flaying a man (is castrating a man close enough to flaying one to count? [yuck I can't believe this show led me to ask that question in a serious way]).  What I mean is: if your theory is right about all the houses gaining mojo through the real-world appearance of their sigils, Bolton's house may be gaining some mojo too, unfortunately.

hobbers: If Brienne is in for a "Ned Stark Experience" of KL, I may cry.  I want to trademark that like an amusement park ride, btw: Come to King's Landing!!  Buy your tickets now for the Ned Stark Experience of the Capital!!

Edited April 6, 2014 by abelard

[Pallas]

When did Robert hunt Stag though? He was killed hunting boar, wasn't he? -- stillshimpy

One could say Robert was killed swilling wine, but yes: wine chased by swine, hunted by stomp. I just made the assumption that Robert, who liked to blow off steam by killing things, frequented a King's Landing deer park.  He had so much Henry Tudor in 'im.

what if Dany decides that her real destiny is NOT is Westeros at all? Her new fav gig is "Breaker of Chains".what if Dany decides that her real destiny is NOT is Westeros at all? Her new fav gig is "Breaker of Chains". No slaves in Westeros = Dany stays on the side of the Narrow Sea with actual slaves? -- White Stumbler

But the dragons?  And the White Walkers?  Don't they have to be introduced?  Or do you imagine Dany's needing to be persuaded to bring her dragons to Westeros? That could be fascinating.

I wonder what side the Westros faith and the maesters are on? I am a bit confused about these two organisations, are they linked in any way? I've rewatched some early s02 eps there and there's this scene between Luwin and Bran where Luwin is poo-pooing magic and says only a handful of maesters even attempt the special magic chain or whatever it is so I put them in the 'f*ck magic' corner too.

We did a lot of head-scratching about the Maesters and the old/new gods back on the TWoP thread, hobbers.  As I recall, we speculated that the Maesters were mostly a function of the "new" gods (now, "totally last year's Gods", what with the rise of Lord Of Light/Red God): the Seven. The Northern Gods seem to verge on pantheism, without any apparent priestly order, and centered on the great trees seen at Winterfell (still!) and where the NIght's Watch take their vows. Then again, Luwin took himself beneath the Winterfell tree to die, refusing any opiates, perhaps to experience something transcendental at time and place of his death. But I may have some of this wrong -- and at any rate it was mostly conjecture on our parts.  

Note: the de-frocked Maester who cauterized and stitched up Jaime's stump had been stripped of his Chain for "bold experiments" on the dispossessed. So there seems to be some kind of Central Authority of Maesterdom.

HOWEVER, wth the Reeds are about, what they want, is beyond me.  I even pretty much trust that they are on the side of good - but wth are they trying to get done???  Do they think that Bran can end the WW invasion or something?

That's what Jojen seemed to imply when he told Bran that the Night's Watch and...I forget who!...would be powerless against the White Walkers. Bran's sighting of the 3-Eyed Raven beyond the Wall is supposed to offer Bran some crucial understanding or power. 

I just think Rickon is gifted, like Bran is gifted, maybe not the same gifts, but similar ones.

 

And Bran, Rickon and Robb were the three Starks in close communion with their wolves. Were Robb's gifts strategic (the teenage Young Wolf who never lost a battle)? He doesn't seem to have been privy to second sight. 

maybe the Bolton bastard is strengthening the Bolton house by actually flaying a man (is castrating a man close enough to flaying one to count? [yuck I can't believe this show led me to ask that question in a serious way]).  What I mean is: if your theory is right about all the houses gaining mojo through the real-world appearance of their sigils, Bolton's house may be gaining some mojo too, unfortunately.

 

Oh, there was flaying too...My hunch is that it's not merely the appearance of the sigll-animal in the real world, but the bond made between the animal and human: Dany and her dragons; the Starks and their wolves. We'd be talking a very different bond forged between torturer and the tortured.  

Hobbers and abelard, The Ned Stark KL Experience (coming soon to your town!) is a very sad, very very funny thought.

[stillshimpy]

Oh fuck. Cannibals?  On top of incest-as-a-way-of-life (Craster) that included ritualistic infanticide, now we have cannibals with which to contend?  That's where Bran and the Reeds decamped to, by the way?  The side where even the Wildlings, who bathe once every lifetime or so, are grossed out by the tribally scarred cannibals? 

Welcome back, Game of Thrones.  The show no one ever snacks to. 

Also, ,the one thing I knew going into this season was that Dario had been recast with Liam from Nashville.  Welcome change, that. 

We have people from Dorne, Spitballers.  He seems...nice and pissed off.  God, that's who they sent Myrcella too?  The people who believe her grandfather ordered one of their family raped and split in two? Not to mention killing all of her children? Well, almost all, but good gods, no wonder Cersei was pissed off. 

Also, I'm crying a little bit foul on the show.  We've never really had any reason to believe that Cersei cared about physical perfection before.  She was in love with Robert at one point in her life, after all.  So it wasn't Jaime outgrowing Cersei, it was Cersei outgrowing Jaime? Okay, fine.  As long as there is growth away from each other, I'm okay with that. 

Poor Arya has become the god of vengeance, the embodiment of karma and the angel of death all rolled into one.  Be afraid Joffrey.  Be very afraid.  That guy wasn't even on her oft repeated list. 

ETA:  You're likely right about Robert, Pallas.  I was pissed as hell when Tywin took Ned's overly gigantic ass sword from it's scabbard...that was a wolf skin.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Dougal
Restored original post. Sorry about the confusion.

[90PercentGravity]

I didn't know Daario had been recast, so it took me a second to catch up. I like this new actor, though. The old one was very nice to look at, but couldn't seem to contain his douche-face. This was seems much more approachable.

So, where are we now?

Tyrion is the master of coin and greeter of dicks?

Shae is jealous of Sansa, which cannot end well for her.

Sansa is on a hunger strike. She was reminded that she once did something good for someone. Maybe that will give her some steam to move forward.

Arya and The Hound are best buds and Arya is also a psychopath. And now she has a pretty white horse and her Needle back.

Bronn is still awesome. Podrick is getting hot? Huh.

Margaery is suddenly less than thrilled with becoming the psychopath's wife.

Jon and Sam are back at the Wall. Sam's incest family is nowhere to be seen? Stashed?

Cannibals! That's three shows I regularly watch with cannibalism. Is cannibalism the new trendy thing? These cannibals reminded me of the cannibals from an awful movie I saw recently, but can't remember the name of. I just remember lots of snow, bad acting, and the blonde girl from Rookie Blue with blonde dreads.

Jaime is still torn between allegiances. Nice to see him stand up to Tywin. Not so nice to see him melt for Cersei, gross. Brienne needs to smack some sense in to him.

So, no updates on Bran/Rickon/Osha/Hodor, Theon, Stannis, Gendry... who else?

Edited April 7, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[stillshimpy]

Shae is jealous of Sansa, which cannot end well for her.

Actually, I think poor Shae is just mad at Tyrion's inattentiveness, which isn't quite the same thing.  Whatever faults Shae has, and she can be incredibly irritating, she doesn't seem to blame Sansa for their plight, at all. 

Sansa earned an "attagirl" from me for taking that necklace. However, she really doesn't have a lot of joy to live for as long as she's in King's Landing.  

[stillshimpy]

Dougal, we usually discussed the episodes in the Speculation thread too.  Will that not work here?  Book readers still compared what happened in the books to what happened in the episodes even in a non-spoiler atmosphere.  

ETA: Yeah, there's readers in there, I recognize the names of several. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Dougal, we usually discussed the episodes in the Speculation thread too.  Will that not work here?

Yes, Dougal, please? We always stayed away from the episode thread on TWOP because it was full of spoilers. No doubt the non-spoiler ep thread here will be well-policed -- we've been impressed by your terrible swift sword already! But we're so used to discussing the ep as well as speculating in the same thread that it's hard to separate the two.

 

[stillshimpy]

Okay, well thank you for the help.  

[stillshimpy]

No, it didn't have two episode threads. I just scrolled through the names again though.  Most of the posters have read the books.  I'm not trying to be difficult, or unkind to anyone.  There's not a darned thing wrong with having read the books, but the point of the completely unspoiled group is...we literally don't even watch promos.  

I'm sorry if I'm being a pain. I'm not trying to be, I'm just really uncertain what to do.  

Edited April 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Oh man, thank you!  We know about the drumstick problem, David.  That's why we walled up in one thread as it was, because it's been a few years at this point.  

Thank you so much.  We do know that we are troll bait, and I apologize for any difficulty it causes.  Wow, I'm far more relieved by this than you would think would be warranted, 

Edited April 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[capt planet]

Heya, folks.  Hella lurker on the TWoP Unsullied thread, and I've gone against my original intention of lurking here forever and made an account specifically to request that episode discussion be allowed in this thread.

I can guarantee if bookwalkers and unsullieds are in the same place, there will be spoilers.  It's a fact.  That's not a comment on your moderation skills, it's simply something that happens.  Hell, I've been spoiled IRL by people who hadn't even read the damn books, just articles about the show!  That thread was literally the only place on the internet I felt safe reading about this show.  Not the episode threads.  Not even the "Ask a Mod" thread.  It's just too easy for casual spoilage.  So I'm putting in a vote to allow this to be a truly safe haven for those of us who are unspoiled.  We (ahem, I'm a lurker, but you guys don't mind a "we" there, eh?) should be able to discuss freely.  

Also, having posts moved randomly can be confusing.

ETA: Haha.  Already been resolved.  Now I need my own mists to creep back into :)

Edited April 7, 2014 by capt planet

[janjan]

It's fine, you can continue to use this as usual

Oooooo thank you thank you thank you!!

And thank you again for giving us a new home!

C'mon, Unsullied, let's mass together, hold our torches aloft, and give a hearty Hip Hip Hooray for Stillshimpy, our champion!!

[stillshimpy]

Thanks, janjan, greatly appreciated.  I'm going to suggest that we all be each others champions though, because I can't even throw a decent punch to save my life.  I can, however, marinate Tofu like a pro.  

I'm thinking the bean curd isn't big with the Westeros set though.  Okay, so when Arya and the Hound were rolling up that inn (clopping up to that inn), I swear to God I thought it was going to be where they had left Hotpie last season.  Did we know that joint? Or just some random "stop and have some filth and grunge with your dirt and grime, plus, Ale" place? 

Also, didn't take them long to commission Joffrey's statue, did it?  And Tywin tried to kick Jaime out of the Kingsguard, but he was resisting the boot because he wanted to remain close to Cersei.  I'm bat 0 for Everything at this point.  Me and the big goose egg over here.  

Tofu? 

ETA: Oh and truly, Margaery's rather open "necklace of sparrows heads" seemed really heartfelt.  He does have to be wearing to hang around, you know?  

Edited April 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Moved myself from the non-spoiler ep thread...I'm home!

Welcome back, Game of Thrones.  The show no one ever snacks to. -- stillshimpy

 

Hee!

The opening was a blow upon a bruise. One more sorrow and a side of Tywin we hadn't seen: triumphantly malicious; victoriously vindictive. In his own chilly way he too has become Mayor of Crazytown. Throwing the direwolf scabbard onto the coals...and cut into the opening image of the credits. Gorgeous.

Jaime has moved from caring for his father's approval to caring, even more than before, for his legacy. Or rather, his own story and how he feels about it. He knows he can't rewrite the book, the myth, but like the Hound, he too has his code. (That was a wonderful line!) For all his chafing at Brienne, Jaime also knows that only she gives a shit if he is honorable or not. As for Cersei, Jaime is discovering that their private, twinly Elsewhere is no more. While he was gone, Cersei changed the locks. Not because there's someone else, but because she is a perfect narcissist and when feeling abandoned, moved Jaime clear across the board and into role of "anyone who is not us." Cersei's "us" has been reduced to "me." 

Arya. She stormed into the tavern with childish bravado, then when the Hound backed her up, played the scene with perfect self-possession. Let the Hound do their talking. Let the Hound do their fighting. Let it all play out, then made her move. And when she did, she looked like Tywin at the forge.