Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[gingerella]

shimps, thanks for the recap of all and sundry living North of The Wall...So that crazy fucker with the bald head and weird tats and head/facial scarring is a Thenn, then?  Heh, get it? Thenn, then....nevermind.

[WhiteStumbler]

Tormund Giantsbane: I fucking hate Thenns. (As the huge, facially scarred, frightening monsters strode into the Wildling camp).

S4E1

[Pallas]

From, "Will Tyrion Become a Quarter-Man?"

Don't worry, I have solved the problem entirely!

For anyone who wants him to live, all you need is for me to pull for him to die.  It's a proven strategy that has worked time and again with this show. 
 

When life and death are on the line, whoever I want to die; lives and whoever I wish would live; dies.  -- stillshimpy

 

 

So, in the spirit of shimpy's post, or, THINGS I WISH I'D SAID

 

1) What's right is right, Ned.
2) Get lost, Benjen.
3) Assert yourself, Tywin.

4) Follow your bliss, Ramsey.  
5) Children need to learn how to entertain themselves, Cat.
6) Your feelings do you credit, Jon.  
7) Are you going to let that horse/village/slave/prince get away with that, Mountain?   

8) What's Davos done for you lately, Stannis?
8) Put a ring on it, Robb.
9) You can be his "plus-one," Talisa.

[gingerella]

Speaking of Mance...since you all reminded me he was a former member of the Nights' Watch, he must know where Benjen is, right?  Right? RIGHT?  He has to know because he seems to know everything going on North of the Wall, right?  I wonder if this great big Wall battle that we've been gearing up for all season will suddenly give us the reappearance of Uncle Benjen...that? Would almost make up for losing Oberyn. I said, almost.  But not quite...My love and affection for Oberyn was apparently deeper than my feelings for Benjen, but it's no fun being smitten with a smushed dead guy so I'll be happy to see Benjy again, if A Viewer were to be so lucky.

[Pallas]

It's no fun being smitten with a smushed dead guy

 

In Westeros, #3 on the charts, with a mallet.   

[gingerella]

In Westeros, #3 on the charts, with a mallet.   

ba dum DUM! Thank you very much folks, don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out.

[AlphaLine]

gingerella has an great point.  Why does Mance Rayder only see the Night's Watch as an obstacle rather than a potential ally?  He has united a number of tribes that have no doubt fought against one another at various times.  So why isn't the Night's Watch just another tribe that he needs to unite in order for all of them to survive?  I guess he in counting on the unyielding "Starkian" nature of the Night's Watch leadership preventing any sort of truce.  Or maybe there has been enough slaughter over the centuries by the Night's Watch that an alliance is unthinkable.  But it does seem odd, given the sort of threat all the Northerners are facing.  This Winter is the very type of event that unites groups with completely different interests. 

 

Speaking of the White Walker invasion, what exactly is it they mean to do?  Are they just going to kill everyone and turn them into zombies?  Steal every baby in sight and turn it into one of them?  Is there something they can do to turn Westeros into the Land of Always Winter?  I don't have a feel for what their end game is.

 

Yeah this is all very wrong.

'The wildlings are coming' , what, all season long? You can't credibly keep up that for such a long time. It just loses any kind of tension. Same with 'the white walkers are coming!'.

On top of that, the wildlings seem to have become 'wild', with no apparent thought in their head other than 'me eat brains!!'. Compared to season 3 where they were basically nice people. We just haven't seen their point of view properly, they just seem be slaughtering people and Mance has been on screen for like 5 seconds.

 

The Night's watch is an even bigger problem. It's been nine episodes already, is that like 3 months? 6 months. and they have done fuck all to prepare. Gee, why didn't they bother to WARN Mole's town about all the rampaging wildlings. How about recruiting 50 men each from 20 of the closest villages. There's your army already without needing to rely on Bolton or Stannis or whatever ( by the way, both are notoriously problematic - perhaps more so than wildlings even ). You could even carry out  full evacuation of the villages and bring them all to the safety of the castles on the wall. Now they wouldn't be as good as regular troops but it sounds a heck of a lot better plan than just leaving the villages to get screwed over or get eaten by cannibals. If the oath is problematic, don't have them swear in as brothers of the Night's watch, just have them be recruits on a temporary basis. The little kid joined up after all so its perfectly reasonable- desperate measures for desperate times.

 

That's what Jon Snow should have been doing all season long, instead of sitting around and sulking. Allister Thorne as a character also doesn't make any kind of logical sense to me ( the reasons are obvious ).

Edited June 8, 2014 by AlphaLine

[stillshimpy]

6) Your feelings do you credit, Jon.

 

Five minutes later and I'm still cracking up sporadically over this one, Pallas.  

 

Brother Emo of the Night's Watch.  He's practically made a mantle out of being sensitive. 

[Pallas]

His feelings are the white ruff on his cloak.

[stillshimpy]

Poor Kitt Karington, I sometimes wonder what his stage directions might look like:  Look dour.  Look distressed.  Look dour some more.  

 

I bet he'd just love to get one script that allowed him to crack a joke, do a dance, smile and laugh as if he hasn't a care in the world.  Okay, so the men of the Wall are pretty much secured, except for Jon Snow's latest foray back into Wildling territory, which he's Jon Snow, he'll grim his way through it somehow, I feel certain of it. 

 

So what stories can we expect to see in the finale?  The show seems to be breaking with tradition by leaving at least one big story for the finale:  Tyrion's execution (or teleportation or whatever Tyrion's escape might be.  Maybe Elaria will get him out of King's Landing.  She'd have reason to want to thwart the Lannisters and wouldn't want Oberyn to have died entirely in vain.  

 

Or they could combine story threads and have Stannis appear in the King's Landing sphere somehow.  I'm assuming we pretty much have to check in with Stannis.  There was forward momentum the last time we saw him in Braavos.  He was rounding up his pirate friend for a task.  I'm assuming that task will have something to do with not simply sitting on Dragonstone, talking about the delicacy that is seagull.  

 

I don't think there will be anything other than a token check-in with Dany.  Jorah was last seen riding away on a horse and he's either joined the milk carton crew for good, or at least temporarily.  New Daario is off doing Dany's bidding and kicking some butt.  Yeah, other than Grey Worm and Missandei , there's nothing really up in the air about Dany's story right now.  She's in Mereen and that's where she's staying, presumably until she takes her Ruler Training Wheels off and her dragons are the size of small, flying houses.  

 

I assume we need to check in with Arya and the seemingly dying Hound.  

 

That raises the question of where Brienne and Pod were headed when we last saw them, because if it was towards The Wall, talk about being up that really bad creek without a crucial paddle.  I wonder if Brienne will become yet another messenger, "ride to King's Landing and tell Jaime Lannister that we are really, truly most sincerely screwed if we don't get more men.  Or women.  Belligerent children would do in a pinch.  Hurry!!" 

 

Or is she going to arrive at the Eyrie only to meet up with Sansa, pretending to be Petyr's niece? Brienne would know her, so I'm assuming not.  I do wonder if Brienne and Pod will happen upon The Hound and Arya, very slowly meandering towards wherever The Hound thinks someone might pay for Arya.  The Hound will die of his Imbecile Bite and Arya will report that her aunt is dead.  Then they'll all ....I have no idea, because I don't know what Brienne's plan for the Stark girls might be.  

Edited June 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

 

The show seems to be breaking with tradition by leaving at least one big story for the finale

 

The very last scenes of each season:

 

S1: Birth of the dragons

S2: White Walker army

S3: Dany freeing 200.000 slaves....

S4: ???

[MrMicrophone]

Alpha,

Either the villages aren't close (possible, with marauding wildlings constantly trying to attack) or they're fief to Last Hearth or some other Northern Holdfast.

Robb's Army took most of the more active Northern Lords with it -- wouldn't be surprised if the Umber's "bran-clone" was unlikely to send his few remaining men to the communal defense. Especially when the wildlings are marauding south of the wall.

[gingerella]

I think one of the biggest reasons I have less than two fucks to give about The Great Battle of the Wall episode is simply because it doesn't make much sense, none of it. As folks were saying on another thread (I think it's the EO:09 thread), why are the Wildlings et al so damn negative all the time. I mean, they act as if North of the Wall is indeed their home territory, so we've never gotten the sense that they've been forced to live up there against their will. If the Wildlings et al know for sure that WWs and Wights and all that are on the move South, why can't they simply send an envoy to Castle Black to say "look here, this is what's going on North of the Wall, and we need to seek refuge. So can we, like, make a deal and we'll help fight back these black magical fuckers if you allow our people to come through the Wall and seek refuge on this side until they retreat or are killed off?"  Why has that convo not happened in A Show by now? There is simply no logical reason for Mance's army of ragtag woods folks to be so motherfucking pissed off at people South of the Wall, yanno?  As posters in the E9 thread pointed out, we never learn why Mance defected. We never hear from the ugly Thenn why they are so hell bent on killing innocent people. We never learn what the fuckity fuck motivation is for these people of the North to be so angry with the South that they would simply kill off every person they come across, rather than, oh I dunno know, talk to them and explain what's going on for fucks sake!

 

This, for me, is A Show's biggest, weakness, and honestly? It's just either really lame story telling or writing or production or I dunno what.  And that's why I can't rub two fucks together about this part of the story, when I feel that I should be deeply invested in this huge part of A Show. I mean shit, it was the very first, epic, sweeping shot we got of the very first episode, with the Ranger party riding through the tunnel and then that massive gate rolling up slowly and revealing that unbelievable panoramic shot of the North. That? Is why I got hooked into this story, from that epic first shot, it was breathtaking and captivating and clearly North of the Wall was a huge and integral part of the overall story of A Show, and yet they've squanderer that storyline terribly thus far. We should be writing about how fucking awesome last night was, not how disappointed we are.

[MrMicrophone]

ging,

"There is simply no logical reason for Mance's army of ragtag woods folks to be so motherfucking pissed off at people South of the Wall, yanno?"

... 800 years of NW killing Wildlings? It's harsh country up there, and kill the men and the entire tribe might die, particularly in winter.

 

Theon's family has been just as fucking stupid -- and they're not supposed to be Borderlanders (am I the only one thinking Borderlander==Wildling?)

[ChocButterfly]

Gingerella, I agree with you that they could've joined to fight an even bigger enemy, the White Walkers, or at least try to make a pact for this once. But I don't think it's so easy to just, you know, let them live on the south of the Wall. For once, they wouldn't accept any lord or king, they cannot abide by the same rules and costumes and they'd be killing and pillaging with no law, like the Ironlanders, just worst, cuz at least you can negotiate with the Ironmen.

 

I do wonder if Brienne and Pod will happen upon The Hound and Arya, very slowly meandering towards wherever The Hound thinks someone might pay for Arya.

Nope, NO ONE ever finds anyone in this show, no one even gets anywhere in this show. Except for Littlefinger, who meets with everyone and gets everywhere. How long has it been since the Hound has been trying to get to the Erye, an entire season? Well, in just one episode Littlefinger has managed to take Sansa from King's Landing, get to the Erye, marry and murder his wife. Oh, he also had time to get Robbyn a present.

[arry the orphan]

 

We never learn what the fuckity fuck motivation is for these people of the North to be so angry with the South that they would simply kill off every person they come across, rather than, oh I dunno know, talk to them and explain what's going on for fucks sake!

 

Mance sent the the raiders over the Wall with the goal to kill as many people as possible. He thought that would draw the NW out of Castle Black. And Ned once said that the White Walkers were gone for thousands of years. So for the past 1000s years the Nights Watch killed Wildlings and the Free Folk killed Crows. The Free Folk complained that their lands were stolen when they built the Wall. The children of the Northerners (like Rickon) heard stories about the evil Wildlings. The Wall was so effective that the people in South (like supersmart and well read Tyrion) don't even believe that giants and White Walkers exist.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Llywela]

My understanding (admittedly shaky) was that the reason the Wildlings turned their sights south was because of the rise of the White Walkers and the onset of what we were led to believe back in S1 (I think) looks set to be the worst winter in generations. We know that small groups of Wildlings have been getting through the Wall for ages. So I think Jon's right - what turned those rag-tag individuals and small groups into a massive marauding army was Mance, the man with the plan. Which is why it's a shame we've never really got to know Mance to find out what that plan really is, beyond take the Wall and get south before the White Walkers pick up speed.

 

I think someone else may have mentioned this last week, but watching the opening credits this week the inclusion of Moat Cailin really struck me. I mean, creating that little sequence for the credits seems a lot of trouble to go to for a location we've visited exactly once (to my recollection) for about 2 scenes. A location that didn't have any named characters of its own and had its population summarily slaughtered in that one visit. I know the Boltons went on about it being strategically important, but that doesn't seem reason enough to stick it in the credits. So does that mean we are likely to return there at some point - is it going to be important later? They'd have to clean up the corpses and re-populate first!

 

I suppose the same question could be asked of Braavos - we didn't spend much time there, yet it was given a spot in the credits.

[ChocButterfly]

Choc,

Yes, water is fast, riding is slow. This is how Catelyn gets from Winterfell to Kings Landing so quickly, isn't it? After all, it took Robert a whole month on the Kingsroad (multiple episodes).

Huh? I didn't know Catelyn had used a boat to get to King's Landing. We never saw her on a boat. And the boat thing would've been a great excuse for Littlefinger getting so fast to the Eyrie, but what about all the magical tele trasnportation he has been doing all the seasons, while the rest of the character take ages to get from point A to point B?

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

"There is simply no logical reason for Mance's army of ragtag woods folks to be so motherfucking pissed off at people South of the Wall, yanno?"

... 800 years of NW killing Wildlings? It's harsh country up there, and kill the men and the entire tribe might die, particularly in winter.

 

Yeah personally they have talked enough about the animosity between the two groups that I don't find it hard to believe that both sides have an us vs. them attitude and don't view an alliance as being worth considering. I do however think Jon will probably succeed in uniting them, whether by negotiating, or by killing Mance and becoming the new Dread Mance Rayder himself.

[abelard]

I do however think Jon will probably succeed in uniting them, whether by negotiating, or by killing Mance and becoming the new Dread Mance Rayder himself.

 

This would definitely be the best outcome - Jon somehow getting the Wildlings to combine with the NW, so they can legitimately prepare for the war against the WW, or something.  But that would also piss me off, b/c won't that mean that this last ep was all for naught?  Like, if Jon Snow could have united the NW and the Wildling army, then why didn't he do that before so many of his brothers/friends got killed?  So...as much as I'd love to see Jon become Dread Mance Rayder or something, I also don't want the Battle of the Wall to have been for nothing.

[gingerella]

This would definitely be the best outcome - Jon somehow getting the Wildlings to combine with the NW, so they can legitimately prepare for the war against the WW, or something.  But that would also piss me off, b/c won't that mean that this last ep was all for naught?  Like, if Jon Snow could have united the NW and the Wildling army, then why didn't he do that before so many of his brothers/friends got killed?  So...as much as I'd love to see Jon become Dread Mance Rayder or something, I also don't want the Battle of the Wall to have been for nothing.

This hypothesis seems at least possible, but can someone explain the "Dread" reference, it doesn't make sense to me, thanks.

 

abelard, the Battle of the Wall wouldn't have been for naught because the battle would show the Wildlings that the Wall was indeed defendable, and that the more men they have manning the wall all along it, not only in a few places, the more chance they can repell and/or vanquish the WWs and whatever else the WWs are bringing with them. I assume there is magic involved there...Plus, The Wall is only manned in a few places now - it is known - and while we've not seen the other manned locations, it's a damn long wall, so the NW needs as many men as possible manning that thing in order to hold back what's coming for them.  So to me, this battle is just the opening salvo, and it gives Jon some gravitas to make his point that they will all perish against the WWs unless they come together to defend the  Wall.

[Anothermi]

Yeah personally they have talked enough about the animosity between the two groups that I don't find it hard to believe that both sides have an us vs. them attitude and don't view an alliance as being worth considering. I do however think Jon will probably succeed in uniting them, whether by negotiating, or by killing Mance and becoming the new Dread Mance Rayder himself.

Even in this episode the show runners took the time to have Sam read a book about the horrific things the Wildings did to non-wildings and then have Maester Aemon tell him that the author had never even seen a wilding much less witnessed their barbarity.  Further he pointed out that Sam might try to imagine what the Wildings say about how the horrors the Night's Watch perpetrate against them.  Sounds much like most wars: WW I & II or the conflict in the Middle East to me, well, except for the religious aspect, which I wrote about back on TWoP.  At least the "Northerners" of Westeros share the old gods with the Free Folk, but who "was here 1st" and who "started it" were probably enough to get the ball rolling those many hundreds of years ago.  

 

Heck, we even know that the Wildings are famously unable to get along with each other - so much so that Mance appeared to be a miracle worker by getting them to band together.  Jon's point about Mance being the glue that holds all the tribes together came directly from Mance's mouth. I actually believe that if he could kill Mance, the Free Folk would end up fighting each other about who should be the next leader.  And that would lessen the Wilding threat. Which is the shortsighted perspective. But having the long view is not usual.  Fighting the fire that is in front of you IS.  If you put it out then you turn to the next one.  

 

I don't see why the Wildings would be any more altruistic than the leaders of the 7 Kingdoms who've been busily re-arranging the deck chairs on their own personal Titanic. They (the Wildings) may know about the WW, but it never caused them to get together before Mance.

 

However, I also think that Jon may be setting out to find a way to stop the wilding threat and end up having to follow another path just to get there. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Anothermi

[abelard]

This hypothesis seems at least possible, but can someone explain the "Dread" reference, it doesn't make sense to me, thanks.

 

In The Princess Bride by William Goldman (also: film dir. by Rob Reiner), there is a character named the Dread Pirate Roberts, that everyone in the story fears b/c he has a huge legend behind him.  But when we meet the Dread Pirate Roberts, it turns out to be Westley, former stable boy and beloved of the Princess Buttercup.  Westley explains that he was serving on a ship that got captured by the Dread Pirate Roberts, and he was the only one allowed to live, and he became Roberts' steward.  After many years of serving Roberts, Roberts told Westley that he (Roberts) was not really Roberts, but had taken over the role of Dread Pirate Roberts from the previous guy, and that guy had taken over from someone before him, and so on.  And he asked Westley to please take over for him, so he could retire with some of the Roberts riches, in peace.  So Westley took on the name Dread Pirate Roberts, and the former Roberts served as his steward for awhile with a brand-new crew, to sort of ensure they respected him and the legend was intact.  Because the lesson was: anyone with enough brains, wit, strength, talent, can be the Dread Pirate Roberts, but it is very important that the role/myth/legend of Roberts always be in place, b/c it's the legend that people really fear and respect.

 

So, if Jon became "Dread Mance Rayder," it would mean maybe Mance Rayder would be dead (at Jon's hands) but Jon would in essence occupy the same position.  (I realize it's not quite analogous b/c everyone would know Jon wasn't Mance...)

Edited June 9, 2014 by abelard

[stillshimpy]

So, if Jon became "Dread Mance Rayder," it would mean maybe Mance Rayder would be dead (at Jon's hands) but Jon would in essence occupy the same position.  (I realize it's not quite analogous b/c everyone would know Jon wasn't Mance...)

 

Also, someone back on the old thread, I've no clue who, had developed a theory that Mance Raydar was actually Benjen Stark and thus the "Maybe it's like the Dread Pirate Roberts! Someone just takes over the role of Mance over and over and the Night's Watch wouldn't know!"  It never really worked as a theory because Mance Raydar had been part of the Night's Watch, but I was personally gladder than hell when Mance showed up and that theory turned up its toes.  

[Snowblack]

Random thought:  Now that we know there are mammoths north of the Wall, and we already knew there were Zombponies, when can we expect to see Zomammoths?  *shudder*  That's a scary game-changer.

[WhiteStumbler]

Or undead giants? Thenn? Yikes!

Thanks for the nightmare! ;-)

[abelard]

Or undead giants? Thenn? Yikes!

 

This brings up a question: Do the zombonis eat people, like zombies in The Walking Dead (and every other zombie narrative)?  Or are they just violent killing machines?  

 

And zomammoths seem like a given, since we have zomponis!!! 

 

I wonder if a sudden WW attack will help Jon Snow's case with Mance.  I mean, I think Jon is going there to kill Mance, but maybe if the WW start to attack right then, Jon will be able to convince Mance to join forces?  It would behoove Mance, anyway, to take refuge with all his folk and not-yet-zomammoths, at Castle Black, if the other choice is to be out in the open when the WW are marching on them.

[AlphaLine]

I think a lot of the reason why the last episode was disappointing is that, other than the mindless action, it's a scum vs scum situation. Just like Boltons vs Greyjoys in episode 8. They tried very hard to be Blackwater 2.0 but because we have no emotional connection to any of these characters ( except Jon Snow if you like him, which I don't ), so it just fell flat.

 

I have a feeling that the North is just infested with too much scum these days. If Stannis shows up ( and he might ), and then the white walkers show up, and the Boltons and Greyjoys are already in the North. Then it would become a giant clusterf*ck of scum vs scum vs scum vs scum vs scum vs scum. Why am I interested in this again?

 

Story wise it only makes sense to me if Jon Snow somehow manages to play one side against the other and emerges as the victor of the 6 way bad guy FFA. But the problem here is that Jon Snow is weak in the upper storey ( none of the starks are very bright ). He'd probably end up getting himself killed by one side or another.

 

Imo they really need to tone down the bad guy screentimes. More King's Landing and Dany please. Less Wall, less Stannis, less Bolton/Greyjoy and so on.

[Pallas]

Now that we know there are mammoths north of the Wall, and we already knew there were Zomponies, when can we expect to see...

 

Jumbonies.  

 

Or undead giants? Thenn? Yikes!

 

Bunyonies, and, Thenn Ice.  

[arry the orphan]

 

I have a feeling that the North is just infested with too much scum these days. If Stannis shows up ( and he might ), and then the white walkers show up, and the Boltons and Greyjoys are already in the North. Then it would become a giant clusterf*ck of scum vs scum vs scum vs scum vs scum vs scum. Why am I interested in this again?

 

Imo they really need to tone down the bad guy screentimes. More King's Landing and Dany please. Less Wall, less Stannis, less Bolton/Greyjoy and so on.

 

I actually like that this show is not good guys vs. bad guys. That would be boring, imo. I also don't think that there are more good guys in Kings Landing than in the North. For me neither "Blackwater" nor "The Watchers on the Wall" was a battle good vs. evil. All sides had good reasons to fight those battles. And I certainly prefer Jon and Sam on the winning side to Joffrey and Cersei.

 

In the first few episodes it looked like the child killers Jaime Lannister and the Hound were among the worst villains of the show. They certainly aren't now. Even Arya, whose friend was killed by the Hound, now cares about him enough to treat his wounds.

[DirewolfPup]

We know that Lysa and LF were intimate (shudder) long before Jon Arryn's death. Is it possible that Robyn is LF's son? I suppose it is always "possible."

[RadiantAerynSun]

I was one of the fans of the "Dread Mance Rayder" theory (that Benjen took over his role, and that it was passed on as a mere title etc) but yes it seems to have been laid to rest! LOL But, doesn't mean Jon Snow couldn't essentially take over his role as leader of the Wildlings somehow. Maybe not right away, but perhaps that's where the story is headed. I will gladly endorse the proposal that Jon will rally the Wildlings to join up with the NW and for the first time in centuries actually MAN THE CASTLES lining hte wall. WHat does the NW always say it needs? MEN! Who has lots of men? (and women, and mammoths, and giants) - THE WILDLINGS!!! If they would just agree to man the wall and defend it, we might actually have some prayer of lasting until the Dragon's can arrive to make some wight Flambee's :)

 

JON SNOW FOR KING BEYOND THE WALL!!!!

[arry the orphan]

 

Ros and the Teleporting Turnip Truck, for instance. 

 

Did we miss something?

 

Actually, Ros didn't go to KL in a Turnip Cart. She and Theon even talked about it, that she is just hitching a ride to the harbor. This is really bad continuity, because later Yara tells Theon that Winterfell is hundreds of miles (leagues?) from the sea. Definitely to great a distance for a farmer to bring his turnips to the market. Unless of course the harbor was at a river that leads to the sea...............

Edited June 10, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Llywela]

I was one of the fans of the "Dread Mance Rayder" theory (that Benjen took over his role, and that it was passed on as a mere title etc) but yes it seems to have been laid to rest! LOL But, doesn't mean Jon Snow couldn't essentially take over his role as leader of the Wildlings somehow. Maybe not right away, but perhaps that's where the story is headed. I will gladly endorse the proposal that Jon will rally the Wildlings to join up with the NW and for the first time in centuries actually MAN THE CASTLES lining hte wall. WHat does the NW always say it needs? MEN! Who has lots of men? (and women, and mammoths, and giants) - THE WILDLINGS!!! If they would just agree to man the wall and defend it, we might actually have some prayer of lasting until the Dragon's can arrive to make some wight Flambee's :)

 

JON SNOW FOR KING BEYOND THE WALL!!!!

The big problem with this theory is that it would require the Wildlings to agree to man the Wall to protect the south, which they have hated for generations. Jon would have to spin it as being the Wildlings' own best chance of survival, rather than the usual NW line about protecting the realm.

[Pallas]

We know that Lysa and LF were intimate (shudder) long before Jon Arryn's death. Is it possible that Robyn is LF's son? I suppose it is always "possible."

 

Shiver me timbers indeed, Direwolf Pup.  What I Choose To Believe, For Now: Lysa was in love with Littlefinger from the get-go, but he was only in full-frontal-cahoots with her when it came time to pull the trigger on the Arryn-go-gah! plan. That seems long enough for her "wedding night years ago" remark to still hold true.  Twelve years or more wouldn't correspond with Tyrion's assessment of her change, though that's not really decisive.  I think Littlefinger's treatment of Robin will tell us a lot, at least about what Littlefinger believes to be true.  

 

In truth, I just don't want shimpy to have to set about adding, "Got cuckolded and raised a false-fathered egg in his own Eyrie," to Jon Arryn's long list of fecklessness. She's got better things to do. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

The big problem with this theory is that it would require the Wildlings to agree to man the Wall to protect the south, which they have hated for generations. Jon would have to spin it as being the Wildlings' own best chance of survival, rather than the usual NW line about protecting the realm.

 

Well if their plan is to flee south, away from the WWs, it doesn't really do them much good if the threat can pass over the wall and come for them. So it would behoove them really to defend the Wall, at least the men, and send the women non-warriors/children further on south. Convincing them of that is maybe not so easy - but that's where maybe the right sort of "negotiation" with Mance might prove successful, if Jon could convince him that is the right path, then he supposedly can convince his followers.

 

 

In truth, I just don't want shimpy to have to set about adding, "Got cuckolded and raised a false-fathered egg in his own Eyrie," to Jon Arryn's long list of fecklessness. She's got better things to do.

 

Well it would be pretty symbolically interesting, since the Cuckoo bird does just that, and the Eyrie is a bird's nest after all.

[gingerella]

Robyn Arryn as LF's son and heir? Whoa Nelly! That's cray cray, but wouldn't it be delicious if LF's heir was insane, that would explain a lot. That said, I think he's the product of Lyssa and Jon A. because let's be real folks, Lyssa was batshit crazy. Period, end of story.

 

I do like the mention about old feudal families sending their sons for tutelage under other Houses...that appears to be what LF is doing with Robyn, even though we know it's likely more so he can ply his sleazy ways with Sansa alone, without any pesky 'not quite right in the head' kids around to get under foot. I cannot imagine LF being "romantic" or "loving" with any woman...it's frightening to even think about. He always seemed so detached when "auditioning" new girls at his brothel in KL.

[DirewolfPup]

I cannot imagine LF being "romantic" or "loving" with any woman...it's frightening to even think about. He always seemed so detached when "auditioning" new girls at his brothel in KL.  - gingerella

 

"Play with her arse!"

[stillshimpy]

Ah yes, the sexposition, who could forget?  

 

 

 

Now that we know there are mammoths north of the Wall, and we already knew there were Zomponies, when can we expect to see...

Jumbonies. 

Or undead giants? Thenn? Yikes!

Bunyonies, and, Thenn Ice.

Snerk.  And *groan* and still? Bwhwhahahahaa.  

 

Pallas, you must never leave us.  If you try to, we're likely to send an army of things you named to fetch you. 

 

In truth, I just don't want shimpy to have to set about adding, "Got cuckolded and raised a false-fathered egg in his own Eyrie," to Jon Arryn's long list of fecklessness. She's got better things to do.

 

Indeed, I do! At least in theory! Not that I'm likely to do any of them in favor of taking a pass on roasting Jon Arryn beyond the grave.  In this case though, I think that Jon Arryn married Lyssa right after the rebellion and that she had one night with Littlefinger, she talked about having had their wedding night long ago, so I'm assuming it was one night and long ago.  Petyr seemed really unenthusiastic about doing his marital duty (despite Lyssa's wild cries) and I kind of got the feeling he hadn't been delivering the goods while in the Eyrie prior to that.  

 

So I doubt that Robyn is Littlefinger's son, because gods old and new know that she'd have brought it up, seeing as she seemed incapable of not cooing or hissing things about their great love. If she'd had his son, I'm sure we'd have heard a lot about it.  Probably in excruciating "great, I'll need memory replacement therapy to get that bastard thought out of my brain" detail.  

[ChocButterfly]

Ok, people, let's see what we have for the last episode! One thing is for sure, if they don't resolve the Tyrion inminent death or escape on the next episode and dare to leave it for next season, that's it! I'm gonna, I'm gonna....Damn, I don't know what I'm going to do, I can't just stop watching. But I will be very pissed!!!! Seriously, they have to solve that on Sunday, right? They can't just ignore it and expect us to wait for a freaking year to know!!

 

What about Stannis? Some people have speculated that he's actually going to attack King's Landing. For a second, last Sunday, I thought he would appear in the middle of the battle and save the day. But I'm glad that dind't happen, because that'd be ridiculous if he had been able to get and movilize an army in that short time. Not even Littlefinger with his teletransportation device! And that's how I feel about Stannis suddenly appearing in King's Landing. Not enough time, hell not enough time to even return from Bravos!

 

I have never understood what the hell is the show doing with Stannis. None of his plots, excepting the battle at Blackwater, goes anywhere! What happened to the Gendry plot?? Melissandre was obsessed with sacrificing him and we never even knew what for? So Davos just sets him free and all of a sudden it's ok, seemed like she didn't need him anymore?? On the last season, the last thing I remember about Stannis is that they were going to the Wall. But they never went anywhere! They jsut stayed there burning people. And now we're suposed to believe anything is happening from this Bravo plot??

[Pallas]

So I doubt that Robyn is Littlefinger's son, because gods old and new know that she'd have brought it up, seeing as she seemed incapable of not cooing or hissing things about their great love. If she'd had his son, I'm sure we'd have heard a lot about it.  Probably in excruciating "great, I'll need memory replacement therapy to get that bastard thought out of my brain" detail. -- stillshimpy

 

It is known!  Truly, case closed.

 

And I'm reminded of your earlier speculation, shimpy, about how nearly all the Great (or Little) Houses seem to be abruptly dwindling out in this generation. The Stark heirs show signs of vigorous physical and inner life, but are perpetually endangered, while Houses Arryn, Baelish, Baratheon, Bolton, Clegane, Greyjoy, Lannister, Mormont and Tully are pretty much denuded or demented of heir.  House Tyrell has yet to find a way to cash the checks that are Margaery and Loras; House Targaryn is breeding dragons; most all the Houses in the North lost their leaders at a wedding, and it's likely that the war took a similar toll on other Houses throughout the realm.  

 

The Red squares in gingerella's Cube are bled dry.  Who's left?  The peoples on the perimeter, maybe.  "Perimeter," that is, from the skewed vantage point of the Mercator Map set out by the narrative so far.   Dorne seems to have felt secure enough to dispatch its fabled Second Son to a Westerosi wedding, and we know that Oberyn successfully performed his own version of Doing the Eight.  Braavos (is it actually ruled by a warrior-actuary? -- no wonder they approved Stannis's loan!); other lands in Essos; the Free Cities (it is unknown what the hell they are); or even the Free Peoples.  

 

When the Wildlings advanced on Castle Black, I wondered if Sam's "Open the fucking door!" could become the Watch's new battle cry.  Maybe the global eruption of magic is signaling another, more momentous shift of power -- and more than power -- from the "perimeters" across the world.   

 

ETA because: Thanks, Radiant (see below)!

Edited June 11, 2014 by Pallas

[DirewolfPup]

Yes, fine. My LF and Robyn spit ball is a swing and a miss. This is why I love you all. You talk me off the ledge of insanity!

 

Season 3 & 4 for Stannis has been, uh, let's say circular. Now, he has a giant bank loan. One would think that means battle right? Based on our experience with Stannis, this plot point will only lead to bookkeeping at Dragonstone. Oooh refinance. Loan guarantees. Income-based payments! Since Dragonstone produces no food or goods, he'll be paying 2 pigeons against his loan for 20-years before all is forgiven. The Red Witch burns the bankers for the bank is dark and full of terrors. Boom.  You're welcome Season 5 show writers!

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I have never understood what the hell is the show doing with Stannis. None of his plots, excepting the battle at Blackwater, goes anywhere! What happened to the Gendry plot?? Melissandre was obsessed with sacrificing him and we never even knew what for? So Davos just sets him free and all of a sudden it's ok, seemed like she didn't need him anymore??

 

I worry there is some connection to the ominous conversations surrounding Shireen this season...

 

 

while Houses Arryn, Baelish, Baratheon, Bolton, Clegane, Lannister, Mormont and Tully are pretty much denuded or demented of heir.

 

To say nothing of the Greyjoys! ;)

[stillshimpy]

 

 

 

ChocI have never understood what the hell is the show doing with Stannis. None of his plots, excepting the battle at Blackwater, goes anywhere! What happened to the Gendry plot?? Melissandre was obsessed with sacrificing him and we never even knew what for? So Davos just sets him free and all of a sudden it's ok, seemed like she didn't need him anymore??

Radiant:I worry there is some connection to the ominous conversations surrounding Shireen this season...

 

Yup, I'm afraid I'm in on this one too, as little as I'd like to be.  Not only will poor Daavos -- who seems fonder of Shireen than her own mother does -- likely be made to pay dearly for the compassionate and humane response that had him set Gendry free, it would also tie into why it was important that we saw Wife of Stannis (Whose name never sticks in my brain) looking just ecstatic when her brother was burned alive for the cause.  

 

It didn't click for me at the time, because whereas I knew that she'd wanted to have Shireen beaten -- and Stannis forbade it -- it didn't occur to me that she might be okay with Shireen being killed until after the bath-time conversation with Melisandre, in which Shireen's Mom basically copped to actively disliking her daughter and wanting to leave her behind.  Then Melisandre said that Shireen had to be with them. 

 

Melisandre is totally going to try and sacrifice Shireen for the blood of King's and Stannis, who killed Renly for this , who would have killed Robert's only living child (that any knows about) and who about the time seems bewtiched to me anyway will either a) finally snap and turn on Melisandre thereby bringing about who the hell knows what kind of destruction b) will allow it and we're going to find out that the scaly part of Shireen's face means the little girl is part of the Unburnt Club.  

 

The thing is, I don't know why I always thought that Melisandre meant to bleed Gendry dry.  It occurs to me The Leech Bar and Grille was just a demonstration and she may have meant to burn him alive all along.  After all "Death by Fire is the Purest Death".   This year's People Roast on the Shore reminded me that Melisandre's sacrifices are usually extra crispy.  

 

It would be sort of fun if Shireen was set afire...only to not burn and to somehow kill the bejesus out of Melisandre, but that seems like it is unlikely.  Plus Mom-of-Shireen with her annoyingly forgettable name, would likely freak right on out about that and kill her daughter.  

 

I really, really want to believe that Stannis would finally reach the end of his "Yes, I'm okay with that being done" tether and stop. that. witch.  

 

However, it is seldom that kind of story. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

Season 3 & 4 for Stannis has been, uh, let's say circular. Now, he has a giant bank loan. One would think that means battle right? Based on our experience with Stannis, this plot point will only lead to bookkeeping at Dragonstone. Oooh refinance. Loan guarantees. Income-based payments! Since Dragonstone produces no food or goods, he'll be paying 2 pigeons against his loan for 20-years before all is forgiven. The Red Witch burns the bankers for the bank is dark and full of terrors. Boom.  You're welcome Season 5 show writers!

There is one up-side.  We might get  some scenes of Shareen teaching Davos the 'rithmatic part of Readin', Writin' and...

 

I'd pay-per-view for that! (what? it'd only BE about 30 seconds, so... $0.43? Right?  Well worth the fee.)

 

b) will allow it and we're going to find out that the scaly part of Shireen's face means the little girl is part of the Unburnt Club. - shimpy

Well, that would brighten up the Stannis plot.  Make it so.  But, to balance things out - Stannis would have to agree to have his wife burnt in Shareen's stead.  Really. There is no body else and somebody has to die horribly and senselessly.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Anothermi

[abelard]

And I'm reminded of your earlier speculation, shimpy, about how nearly all the Great (or Little) Houses seem to be abruptly dwindling out in this generation. The Stark heirs show signs of vigorous physical and inner life, but are perpetually endangered, while Houses Arryn, Baelish, Baratheon, Bolton, Clegane, Greyjoy, Lannister, Mormont and Tully are pretty much denuded or demented of heir.  House Tyrell has yet to find a way to cash the checks that are Margaery and Loras; House Targaryn is breeding dragons; most all the Houses in the North lost their leaders at a wedding, and it's likely that the war took a similar toll on other Houses throughout the realm.

 

Wel, we'll never ever ever ever run out of Freys!!!  In fact, I'm pretty sure that the only reason that Cat's brother is still alive (somewhere in the dungeons of The Twins, I guess) - wait, I've got it, Edmure Tully, right? - is that Walder Frey needs him to procreate with the sole good-looking Frey daughter, so that that son (or daughter if they have no sons) can "legitimately" inherit Riverrun.  I know that Frey is running Riverrun (ha!) or rather the Riverlands right now, but I think he thinks it best if there is an actual Tully heir.  Tully/Frey heir.

 

But as for the dying-out of Houses in general, one thing I have thought about for a while now is that some of the most likely people to win this whole Game have said they will never have children.  Dany has said her dragons will be her only children.  Jon took the NW vow, which as Sam said, doesn't actually forbid intercourse, just fatherhood (a part of me wonders if Sam wasn't giving Jon a bit of forgiveness there for the Ygrit incident).  If either Jon and Dany takes the Throne, or if they take it together, then there is no second generation of that line, potentially.  In Dany's family, procreation has always been incestuous - and while I think there is a chance that Jon Snow is related to Dany by blood (if he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son), are Dany or Jon really the kind of people that would condone incest, for anyone, let alone themselves?

 

So this means, after Dany, no more people-dragons, whether she takes the Throne or not.

 

Methinks this is a story about the "end" of a lot of things.  A lot lot lot of things.  The end of whole lineages, the end of certain strains of magic, even.  The end of an era, the end of a way of life, the end of a world.  I don't mean that I think the WW will win and just overrun everything, but something more like the shift between monarchy and democracy.  I know others have posited before that maybe the end of this show will be the destruction of the Iron Throne itself.  But what will the new age bring?  (I guess I just don't see democracy in the cards for this world.)

[gingerella]

Hmmm...So many good points that they are too numerous to mention. So many great hypotheses...

 

Regarding Tyrion, I think the best we can expect this week for the finale, is that either he gets killed and we know it, or we see him escape, but we don't know where he is headed when the credits roll. A Show likes to keep a lady guessing and on her toes. It is known.

 

Regarding Stannis et al, I don't think we will see them back at Dragonstone because why would they go back there after taking the pains to sail to Braavos for a loan? I think they most likely will head to Slaver's Bay to buy soldiers and arms, yes? Isn't that the entire purpose of the loan in the first place? To buy an army that can vanquish the Lannisters? I thought that was what Davos was telling the loan crew at the bank though I could be misremembering that. Plus, if they were only going to get the loan and then come back and re-group at Dragonstone, why would they have brought Shireen and No Name Wife along with them? Bringing those two and the Red Witch tells me that they plan on heading somewhere else, closer to their master plan of taking on/taking over KL by force. That said, I cannot imagine we'd see another huge battle in KL back to back with the Wall battle, that isn't like A Show to blow it's wad two three weeks in a row (ie: Oberyn, The Wall battle, and then the Battle for KL).

 

Regarding Bran and Rickon, I don't imagine we will see Rickon until next season. In fact, I call that we will see him in SO6:EO1, I don't know why, but I'm calling it now!  As for Bran and crew, I hope we at least get a glimpse of where they are right now, and if they are any closer to their final destination, as well as clarification on whether or not they are currently North or South of the Wall. Oh, and I hope we see a direwolf sighting if we do see them this week.

 

Dany...we've seen enough of her this season and I'm fine with not seeing her again until next year. I'm over the dragon stuff for now. Let her settle herself and not be such a hot head before she takes her next move. Plus, she has a lot of governing to do in order to bring order to the cities she has already freed so that they don't revert back to slavery. That should take her full attention for a while. So yeah, I'm full on Dany this season.

 

Regarding the Wall and the NW, I suspect we will not see Jon Snow again in the finale and will be left wondering where he is and if he's reached Mance yet. If we do see him, I'll be really surprised since we got an entire hour of The Jon Snow Show last week. As for the rest of the NW at Castle Black, I'd like to know what's going on there with the hazmat clean up of the dead, but I have a feeling we wont see them tomorrow. But I actually am more invested in that part of A Story right now, so I'd like to know what happens with Slynt and see who is in charge, and see how the Lord Commander is doing, hopefully he survived. He won me over in the end with his 'can do' leadership in the face of awful odds, and that counts for a lot.

 

I'm pretty much over Cersei's snarky and snarling, so I really would be fine with offing her at the finale though like Joffs, she's a bad penny that keeps showing up so I sadly think we've not seen the last of her, though A Viewer can only hope. Ditto Tywin. Although having said that, the worst punishment for Cersei would be to be ursurped somehow, and have her power and safety completely torn from her - as in seeing her father killed, son killed, and left alone and petrified.  Karma, baby, karma!

 

I don't think we will see Briene and Pod, though I'd like to see them reach the Eyrie so that someone beyond The Vale will know that Sansa is alive and - I was going to say 'well' but how 'well' can a young, pretty maiden be if they are being obsessed and drooled over by LF? Yeah, right. I do think we will see LF and Sansa in the finale, and I suspect we will be continue to be confused as to what Sansa's game is and whether she's playing her role to save her ass, or if she is actually falling for LF. The latter would be ironic given her mother rebuffed him all those years ago.

 

We've seen entirely too little of Varys this season and I do hope we get some sort of update on him this week, and I really want him to show a little humanity for Tyrion by participating in Tyrion's escape, exoneration, or whatever it takes to free Tyrion from his IMPending (hee, sorry!) death sentence. To those who said maybe Varys will use his sorcerer to help Tyrion, I don't think so, because his sorcerer could easily dupe him and put a spell on Varys instead, so I don't think that will happen...Oh yeah, and I would like to see what becomes of Elaria in the immediate aftermath. I imagine she would be under some sort of house arrest because of her closeness to Oberyn, no? I just don't see the Lannisters allowing her and her traveling party to hightail it back to Dorne to let them know that Oberyn, their Prince, has been slain, and in a most awful way despite exacting revenge on his sister's killer. Or maybe they allow her to work a deal to take Tyrion with her in exchange for not causing a war between Dorne and KL, and for ensuring protection of Myrcella?  I'm just guessing here, but she has to do something right? She has to either leave for Dorne, or be killed to keep her quiet or something...right?

 

...But that last sentence brings me to A Cube...which I will go over to that thread to write about...

 

ETA:

Methinks this is a story about the "end" of a lot of things.  A lot lot lot of things.  The end of whole lineages, the end of certain strains of magic, even.  The end of an era, the end of a way of life, the end of a world.  I don't mean that I think the WW will win and just overrun everything, but something more like the shift between monarchy and democracy.  I know others have posited before that maybe the end of this show will be the destruction of the Iron Throne itself.  But what will the new age bring?  (I guess I just don't see democracy in the cards for this world.)

Ha! It's like a medieval, Dark Ages version of Downton's Abbey...which could be a whole other thread of who in GoT is which Downton character...heh...

Edited June 11, 2014 by gingerella

[AlphaLine]

 

Regarding Stannis et al, I don't think we will see them back at Dragonstone because why would they go back there after taking the pains to sail to Braavos for a loan? I think they most likely will head to Slaver's Bay to buy soldiers and arms, yes? Isn't that the entire purpose of the loan in the first place? To buy an army that can vanquish the Lannisters?

 

Well, I gathered that Stannis wants to hire the 'Golden Company', who are sellswords. Mercenaries basically. You can buy them, but they're not slaves. Anyway if he's heading to Slavers bay to buy a slave army he's in for a big shock, cause Dany screwed that whole trade over.

[Llywela]

I'm actually kind of nervous about the finale on Sunday, because it's easy to say 'oh, Tyrion has plot armour', but we'd just about convinced ourselves that Oberyn might defeat the Mountain, and look how that turned out.

 

Tyrion is the biggest unresolved plotline that will presumably find resolution in the finale. What are the other loose ends currently dangling? Stannis & co, we haven't checked in with them for a while, so there's got to be movement on that front or what few scenes they've had this season will have been an epic waste of time. Brienne and Pod are out in the wind somewhere - will their road trip take them to an actual destination before season's end? Arya and the Hound were last seen standing at the door of the Eyrie being told about Lysa's death - were they allowed to enter or did they turn away without asking who's in charge now and are they interested in Arya anyway? Sansa doesn't feel so unresolved - if we didn't see her in the finale, I'd be content with where we last saw her as resolution enough to take into hiatus: she's with Littlefinger, putting her King's Landing training into practice as a novice player of The Game. Who else is out there? I suspect there's more to come up at the Wall that can't be left dangling for however many weeks or months pass between seasons, since a second Wildling assault is expected by nightfall and they barely survived the first and no longer have any leaders to rally the troops. And there's Dany - but like Sansa, I kind of feel we've left her in a reasonable place so it wouldn't seem strange if she weren't in the finale, except that she always is - Dany tends to get the epic final scene always.

 

Well, we'll find out soon enough.

[arry the orphan]

Great summary Llywela,

 

I seemed to me that Sansa joined Robin on his tour of the Vale (Shall we go?). So, I think we gonna check in with them next season again.

Theon and the Boltons moving into Winterfell also serves as a good season end point for them.

But we should really check in with Yara! She only got one really bad scene this season. Daddy Greyjoy got none!

I think Brienne and Pod are going to meet Arya and the Hound. They will either fight each other or get attacked by Tyrions hill tribesmen from S1. Podrick should know the hill tribesmen from his time as Tyrions squire, right?

We need to check in with Bran and co.

I am not really worried about Tyrion. He really has a solid plot armor.

Margary is the only one who knows that Tyrion is innocent, perhaps she convinces Tommen to pardon Tyrion and send him to the Wall?

Varys owes him a debt, and does not forget!

And there are Jamie and Bronn as well. One of them will help him.