Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Men having extra marital sex is problematic anyway, but when you have women doing that too, then how do you know who is a bastard and who isn't. There are no paternity/DNA tests in Westeros. This creates any number of inheritance problems. Can a society be that way?

 

There were lots of references to Dornish girls being especially wild peppered throughout the previous 3 seasons, though I couldn't cite exact quotes... so I actually think the society IS supposed to be pretty open like that. See also their tolerance of bastards. It could be that any children born to a married woman are considered legally the offspring of her husband, regardless of what DNA might show for paternity. And offspring of unmarried women are all Sands, but are not looked down upon the way they are in the rest of Westeros because of their different societal attitudes.

[janjan]

Season 5 - Hooray!  Is it April 12 yet?

Edited January 15, 2015 by SilverStormm
Removed article link.

[stillshimpy]

Dude?  No press.  Doesn't matter if it is with or without spoilers.

 

We're all rusty on our Wall and Habitat Duties :-)  I am not even sure I remember how to make grob, but this is the "only if aired in an episode" area.   

 

ETA:  See, I even spelled "grob" instead of "grog"  ...yup, rusty :-) 

Edited January 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Llywela]

I've been wondering when speculation for the new season might start up (is April 12 the airdate, then?) - I'd have a go at kicking it off myself, but I'm not sure I actually remember where we left everyone.

 

Lemme think. Stannis and co were at the Wall with Jon and whoever's left from his bunch. Sansa was at dearly departed Aunt Lysa's place (the Eyrie?) with creepy Littlefinger. Arya was in the wind, en route to Braaaaaavos (I'm never sure when to stop spelling that one). Um. Tommen was King. Was Jaime still at King's Landing with Cersei and whoever else is there? I remember Tyrion escaping - did we see where he went, or did we end on his escape? I'm completely blank on that one, so probably we just saw him escape and that's why I can't remember anything after that. Um. Brienne was on the road with Pod. Dany was being Queen over on the other continent, minus what's-his'face, Jorah. Who've I forgotten?

 

Edit - I remembered another one: Bran, north of the Wall - somewhere under a tree?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Llywela

[stillshimpy]

Let's see, Jaime was back in King's Landing and Cersie had renewed their relationship (thank the gods for mind numbing booze there, as far as I'm concerned, blech) .  

 

We did actually see Varys (Jeez, is that his name?  The guy who had the wizard-in-a-box) on a boat with Tyrion (I think) because as he was helping Tyrion escape (I think Jaime had orchestrated that) the alarm for the goldcloaks (city guard?) were peeling out, since Tyrion had paused for a bit of Patricide (not that you could blame him) on his way out of town.  

 

Bran had some crazy ass battle with some fire-flinging ....maybe Children of the Forest ....defeating what looked like escapees from that Cave in the Halfblood Prince (Zombie creatures beneath the ice...who might have been part of the White Walkers army...the Zombonis) ...I think Jojen died during that, being pulled under by an Amphibian Zomboni and his sister....whose name is entirely freaking escaping me (I need to go stare at the character list for a while, clearly)  ....was with him when they met the Root Dude (man seemingly attached to the roots of a tree in a cave).  

 

Bran thought that King Root Dude might make him walk again, but that turned out to not be the case. 

 

Let's see Jon Snow was....at the Wall forming an alliance with Mance Rayder, I think, after the Wildlings laid siege to Castle Black and lots of fun characters died...and also Ygrit (Jon's girlfriend) died partially because at the last possible second, she seemed unable to kill Jon despite have a clear shot....and that kid who was orphaned because the People Eaters from the North (called....something from the character list) had gone way the hell out of their way to tell him "I will eat your ma and pa, now run to the Crows" ....and since he was the only character not named Stark who loved his parents, he killed the hell out of Ygritte, who had purposefully spared Sam's girlfriend and baby when Sam had idiotically left her in the safety of a neighborhood whorehouse ...and she lived through the Siege in a pantry or something.  

 

Might be time to rewatch that episode.  Gilly, by the way, Sam's girlfriend is named Gilly. 

 

Arya was seemingly sailing off to train to be an assassin in Braavos.  Stannis had arrived at Castle Black and turned the tide of that battle (in one of the few "Stannis, you rockin' lobster!" moments) and she had left The Hound to die rather than mercifully dispatching him, which I rather supported, because no matter what, The Hound had killed her friend Micah.   

 

The Hound was last seen possibly dying from a gut wound....but it seemed very likely that Brienne and Pod were about to stumble across him.  Brienne was on her way to find Sansa -- who is going by Alayne (and everyone in the Unsullied knows I freaked the fuck out over that...because that's essentially my first name Alane ...and every bookwalker I know was honorable enough to never tell me 'yo....so a version of your actual name is totally in this story'...proving that not all Bookwalkers are cut from the same pages....some are good)  and if you all think I did giant double-take over the famed "pigshit" moment, imagine how much I wigged when the show basically said my name.  

 

Sansa seems to be catching up with the necessity to be a game-player in all of this and might be sort of encouraging Littlefinger (so she's way the hell outmatched ) and has dyed her hair.  Brienne does know what Sansa looks like though, so if she ever makes it to the Eeyrie, who knows what will happen.  

 

Oh...and Jaime gave Brienne the sword now-dead-Tywin Lannister had made from Ned's family sword, and Brienne named it Oathkeeper.  

 

Oh...and the bastard The Mountain was being turned into some version of Frankenstein's Monster by the guy who treated Jaime's stump and is a Maester who apparently is gifted, but low on ethics (which considering this land, I'm assuming he does hideous thing to fairy godmothers and unicorns, because if someone is noted for their lack of scruples in this story....holy Jebus, they must be bad).  

 

Theon continues to be Ramsey's creature and Ramsay never seems to get any more interesting, but his equally repellent father had shown up with one of the Frey girls...and Ramsay was made Bolton's heir despite being a bastard.  

 

So the Mountain is Frankenstein's Monster and Theon is Igor and that's all I've got so far.  

Edited January 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Absolutely brilliant, shimpy.  Thank you!  If I may limit my huzzahs to only three quotes:

 

Bran thought that King Root Dude might make him walk again, but that turned out to not be the case.

and that kid who was orphaned because the People Eaters from the North (called....something from the character list) had gone way the hell out of their way to tell him "I will eat your ma and pa, now run to the Crows" ....and since he was the only character not named Stark who loved his parents, he killed the hell out of Ygritte,

Brienne was on her way to find Sansa -- who is going by Alayne (and everyone in the Unsullied knows I freaked the fuck out over that...because that's essentially my first name Alane ...and every bookwalker I know was honorable enough to never tell me 'yo....so a version of your actual name is totally in this story'...proving that not all Bookwalkers are cut from the same pages....some are good)

 

The fairy-tale-moral earnestness of the last phrase made me salute you with my raised coffee cup.  About how the younger Stark daughter and Sandor Clegane parted ways, I offer this summation --

 

Arya:  Leave the Hound; take the pony.

[Meredith Quill]

This Forum is for Unsullied Members to post in: those who have vowed to not only not read the books, but also to not watch previews, read information on the Viewer's Guide, or seek any information outside of what has been IN THE EPISODES ONLY.
For the purposes of The Habitat there are 4 categories of visitor:
 
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Unless you fall into the Unsullied category above, you should not post for ANY REASON and be in READ-ONLY mode in this thread (and sub-forum).
 
Thank you for your cooperation.

[WhiteStumbler]

Waves to all, raises grog, drinks deep...

Re-watching in anticipation of S5 and stumbled (HA!) across this from S3E04 -- Craster says to the NW (just before getting daggered by the Fookin' Legend of Gin Alley) "You have one son, don't you, Mormont? I had my 99th. You ever meet a man with 99 sons?"

So does that make Gilly's baby Sam the 99th? Or #100, since Gilly seemed to be hiding the sex of her child? And would the 100th sacrifice of a Son of Craster have somehow tipped something and allow the White Walkers to become some sort of even scarier force than they are now? Or (FINALLY!) would it allow Winter to come?

[Anothermi]

*Pokes head up from the earth under WS feet and shakes the dirt out of hair*

**Feels refreshed and (dare I say) re-animated**  ;-D

 

Great find WS! I'm missing the post-season gabfests we had previously. S3 you say... I don't know if I have the fortitude to re-watch the previous seasons on my own.  :-(

 

Interesting that Craster cared enough about sons that he kept track of the number. Given the reveal (I'm assuming it was quite a while after that comment by Craster) of where the WW took the last Craster boy, it does seem there may have been some Faustian pact made between them and Craster that that bastard knew a lot more about than we were led to believe.  Why take pride in the number of sons you don't have any contact with or control of? Perhaps he believes he will leave some kind of legacy because of his action? Or... perhaps he just thinks it's an indication of how 'manly' he is compared to someone with only one son? 

 

Upon reflection, I just don't see Craster as capable of any thoughts deeper than 'me Tarzan, you NOT'. 

 

 

 

 

[stillshimpy]

So does that make Gilly's baby Sam the 99th? Or #100, since Gilly seemed to be hiding the sex of her child? And would the 100th sacrifice of a Son of Craster have somehow tipped something and allow the White Walkers to become some sort of even scarier force than they are now? Or (FINALLY!) would it allow Winter to come?

 

At a guess, Robert Baretheon almost certainly had that many before Joffrey got his Infanticide on and blamed Cersei for it.  

 

You know, I have to wonder if the number is significant, because it's actually rather weird that Craster would crow about that (to a Crow no less), seeing as he's been giving them to White Walkers for who knows how long.  Does the fact that he knows how many and keeps track mean that he knew they weren't being eaten or dismembered in one of those freaky body part circles we'd seen from the White Walkers before?  Just keeping track of the number would suggest that Craster knows they aren't (completely) dead. 

 

It didn't catch my attention before and it was a really good catch, White Stumbler .  Does Craster know that he was handing his sons over to their own brothers?  

 

If the 100 thing makes little Sam significant, does being a sole surviving son then render Gendry important?  I'm really hoping that Gendry took the hell off for points unknown, because they only safe character in this story is a character who leaves for Dorn or exits stage right, not in a body bag (or in pieces).   I guess I've been sort of assuming he's going to bump into Arya in Braavos.  

 

Now that we're finally shut of Joffrey (Huzzah! And godspeed to the actor who was brilliant as that toad) will there end up being some kind of price paid in blood already for the slaughter of all those children?  I mean, it turns out even the White Walkers aren't technically killing actual babies....they are just turning them into infantcicles or something.  Just saying, about the only moral code that seems to give anyone pause in this story is "But you can't kill the little children!"  When Cersie was drunkenly saying that maybe it was all a price for the things that they had done, all I could think was "Yay! That would be splendid, bring that the hell on."  

 

Also, just in passing, still pissed about The Mountain being revived.  I'm about ready to mount a mission to take the bastard out at the knees myself.  Then I remember that I'm relatively wee and he's totally fictional and I reach for the mug of grog*, muttering darkly.   

 

*Grog in this case being a smoothie with hemp seeds and matcha and other insanely healthy stuff, including enough spinach to make it "that's probably a potion, right?" Green.  

Edited March 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

Also, just in passing, still pissed about The Mountain being revived.  I'm about ready to mount a mission to take the bastard out at the knees myself.  Then I remember that I'm relatively wee and he's totally fictional and I reach for the mug of grog*, muttering darkly.   

 

Hee! I agree with your sentiments about the Mountain being revived. He is the only character who seems to have gotten weaker (OK, not talking physically here) since S1 - and less interesting. No character development for someone who has hung around in this story for so long. Unfortunately, it looked like we could  be treated to some kind of "Mountain-stein" story line for him - which means he won't be any different than he was before. Hope I'm wrong.

[WhiteStumbler]

26 days and counting...

 

Oh, and Shimpy? I have to comment on

 

infantcicles

 

So full of chilly darkness, I was cracking up. Very nice.

[gingerella]

Does anyone else think it miiiiight be possible that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person? I mean, since A Man can change His Face and all...could it be?

[WhiteStumbler]

gingerella:

Does anyone else think it miiiiight be possible that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person?

Possible, but how would it work on A Show? Would Syrio get dark, wavy hair with a white streak thru it? Or would A Man be shorter and stouter? Also, it just doesn't seem like a twist that would move the plot forward in any interesting ways. With Arya heading to Braavos, it does seem likely that she will run into one or the other of them again. I would vote for A Man. To me, he is the more interesting character/actor combo.

 

Either one would probably have a short life expectancy, given how Arya's other father-figures have fared (Ned, Syrio, Yoren, The Hound...).

[Anothermi]

Possible, but how would it work on A Show? Would Syrio get dark, wavy hair with a white streak thru it? Or would A Man be shorter and stouter? Also, it just doesn't seem like a twist that would move the plot forward in any interesting ways. With Arya heading to Braavos, it does seem likely that she will run into one or the other of them again. I would vote for A Man. To me, he is the more interesting character/actor combo.

 

Either one would probably have a short life expectancy, given how Arya's other father-figures have fared (Ned, Syrio, Yoren, The Hound...).

Sigh.  So true. Much as I love Arya and her serial-Father-Figure adventures, none of them have fared well. 

 

Regarding Jaqen (and you might remember this better than I do WhiteStumbler), I thought when he left Ayra, not only did he face-change, but he said - or perhaps implied - that Jaqen H'ghar was "no more". Because of that memory I don't think we'll see our beloved Jaqen again.  

 

So, I'm hoping that Arya will re-encounter Gendry who was last seen 2 seasons ago embarking on a sea voyage with no food, no ability to swim and no seafaring experience.  The lack of human interaction gives me hope that he'll be fine, and as long as he doesn't try to be a Father to her.... or a Brother to her.... or piss her off in some way... he just might fare a bit better than the others. 

[ChocButterfly]

Arghhhh!! I'm getting desperate waiting for the 12th! Someone please remind me, what happened to the Dragons the last time we saw them? Danarys locked them up because they did something? Was Blacky there? I don't remember well :/

[Llywela]

Arghhhh!! I'm getting desperate waiting for the 12th! Someone please remind me, what happened to the Dragons the last time we saw them? Danarys locked them up because they did something? Was Blacky there? I don't remember well :/

As I recall, the dragons killed a child. Daenerys locked two of them in chains in a dungeon, but the third - the largest - escaped.

[WhiteStumbler]

Correct -- Red and Green are getting an undeserved time out in a dungeon of some sort, and Drogon (the black one) is MIA. Dany has exiled Jorah (which was a bummer and seems like a mistake), but she still has a pretty bad-ass group around her: Barristan, Grey Worm (Torco Nudo!), Missandei, some number of Dothraki, the Unsullied, and Nu! Daario, the greatest whistler in the land. Dany seems little closer to heading to Westeros than she did at the end of Season Three, when she left Qarth. She now has a huge army and the dragons are much larger, but I have a feeling that she is going to get bogged down in the politics around the Gulf of Grief this season.

 

Danerys Targaryen, like Winter, is taking its sweet time getting anywhere.

[Anothermi]

As I recall, the dragons killed a child. Daenerys locked two of them in chains in a dungeon, but the third - the largest - escaped.

Scrapped my response because WhiteStumbler posted while I was in the middle of posting - and explained it much better. Dany loves her Drogon but clearly couldn't control him, so the poor little ones got punished instead.  I suppose that is because they, too, could possiblely do the same as Drogon. 

[stillshimpy]

Okay, soooooo when I wasn't nearly de-facing myself trying to escape HBO previews like a flying Wallenda , I rewatched the episode in which Stannis makes a timely appearance (and I nearly died afresh that he'd gone and done something interesting) Mance Rayder revealed his "Why I need your tunnel, like ...whoa" reasons for laying siege to Castle Black: 

 

Essentially because it was the only way for his people not to die.  Now, I grant you that it seems somewhat unlikely that King Joffrey the Grinning Sadist would have said, "Oh sure, I understand.  Wouldn't want any innocents imperiled or hurt, by all means, play through.  Plenty of room in the North for everyone" because Joffrey was far more likely to say, "Will they be eating babies alive and will I get to watch? Because I'm all about taking pleasure in the pain and suffering of others!" 

 

However, the whole "We march South, because Winter is coming....at a fittingly glacial pace, when you think about it....and when it (eventually, at some point in the future, no-really-don't-give-up-on-it, be there any year) gets here, we're all going to die, because of the rise of the White Walkers and the march of the Army of the Dead and the pain, suffering and incidental necromancy that accompanies that will certainly bring woe unto us all..." thing started when Robert Baratheon was on the throne.  

 

Now I grant you, he bloody well sucked.  Plus, it turned out he wasn't stopping Bolton from flaying people (although, wasn't that in Ned's territory?)  Anyway, taken as a given that Robert left a lot to be desired as a monarch, I wonder why they simply didn't...I don't know...send a Raven to ask? "Hi, red rover, red rover, can the people of the far North come over? Guess what, really Cold Death is marching, that's what.   Mind if we nip through a gate and occupy a bit of the vast, vast north until Spring? We'll help you fight them and we know how to kill them."  

 

Why in the world was Mance Raydar's "We must all go south or we will all die!" plan never include any attempt to work it out?  

 

So that's something of a rhetorical question, because I have been watching this show for four years now and apparently compassion is rarer than unicorns in that place, but aren't there supposed to be other outposts along the wall? Like the place where the cook got turned into a rat?  Don't they have a tunnel as well?  I know they do because we freaking saw Bran and the Reeds go through one.  

 

So....why not just go through one of them? Mance apparently knew how understaffed the Night's Watch was. 

 

Sometimes the scope of the geography of Westeros and beyond just seems screwy to me.  Pick. Another. Gate.  

Edited April 1, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

"Hi, red rover, red rover, can the people of the far North come over? Guess what, really Cold Death is marching, that's what.   Mind if we nip through a gate and occupy a bit of the vast, vast north until Spring? We'll help you fight them and we know how to kill them."

Is it wrong that I imagine Eddy Izzard delivering the above and it cracks my shit right up?! Thank you.

[ChocButterfly]

Hey, guys, thank you for the refresher! So, Blacky is still out there and I bet he's breaking havoc! Well, a dragon's gotta eat! Me thinks Danarys has to start looking for some old magic or something to control him. If her ancestors controlled them, there must be a way.

 

Is it the 12 already?

[gingerella]

Salutations ChocoButt (do you mind if I call you that? It just floats off the tongue so easily. No, wait. That didn't sound right at all, nevermind...)!

 

So yeah, I too remember that Drogon did the Very Bad Thing, IIRC, and then he promptly went AWOL, probably to go sit out some dragon gas until he digested that little sucker he ate, and in the meantime, the only bad kids around the neighborhood to punish were Greeny and Red, so into the dungeon they went, following Dany because they lerve and trust her. What I am now wondering is if they turn against her because she tricked them into the dungeon, then chained them and walked away while they were shrieking. God that was an awful shriek too, wasn't it? I couldn't listen to that all day long. Anyway, someone must be feeding them right? So maybe Dany visits them in their time out. I have a feeling we will see Drogon, but I wonder how far he can go away from Dany right now. It seems like the other two are always fairly nearby her, but Drogon is the bad seed who goes off...I wonder if he will fly across the sea and buzz KL one day, freaking the crap out of everyone there. That might be fun to see.  Well, I mean, it would have been fun to see if he flew over and BBQ'd ol Joffster on his balcony, but since he's gone now, maybe I'd settle for a BBQ fly by of Cersei, put her out of her misery once and for all.

 

As for A Man being both Syrio and Jaqen Hagar, well, if he can face change into anything, maybe he can body change too? I guess that's where that idea came from. A Man seemed very capable so I have no doubt that if Arya makes it to Braavos then so too shall A Man. Wouldn't it be funny if the ship captain is A Man? Hehe...Hey, it could happen!

 

Gendry, where art thou?

 

And what's our direwolf count right now? Who's still alive as far as we know, and where did we last see em? I think Shaggy Dog and whatshisface are still together with whatsherface, right? Hiding out somewhere, right? God, I cannot remember shit about past seasons...my brain is so challenged by A Show, which is compounded by the fact that I simply cannot re watch episodes let alone full seasons because I cannot bear to watch the hideous shit more than once. Some of it still haunts me...oy.

 

[Pallas]

From the Small Talk thread...

 

Father's Day...And as for that: which pater will it be this year?

Papa Frey? (pleasepleaseplease)

 

We do have one Tully extant at the Twins, and another on the loose somewhere...near?...far? 

 

I was kind of hoping that the Tully father-and-son team could still, somehow, counter the Bolton father-and-son team...Even though neither surviving Tully was a witness to the Red in the Red Wedding, at least Blackfish probably has the wits to surmise that Frey was not its mastermind.  But I'd absolutely settle for the settling-of-the-hash of Walder Frey: the other World's-Worst-Yet-Most-Prolific-Pater, now that Craster is no more.

[Anothermi]

IIRC the Tullys would be more a Uncle/nephew team, and from the lack of archery prowess of the nephew, I think the Uncle might be better as a one man "Team". 

 

Would really like the Blackfish to re-appear this season, though - along with some fitting denouement for Benjen, I need some closure on him. :-(

 

I also wonder if the nickname Blackfish is evocative of the concept of being a black sheep of the family? Just more water-ish. 

[gingerella]

Pallas, ahoy!

I was kind of hoping that the Tully father-and-son team could still, somehow, counter the Bolton father-and-son team...Even though neither surviving Tully was a witness to the Red in the Red Wedding, at least Blackfish probably has the wits to surmise that Frey was not its mastermind.  But I'd absolutely settle for the settling-of-the-hash of Walder Frey: the other World's-Worst-Yet-Most-Prolific-Pater, now that Craster is no more.

Ha, another reminder of how difficult it is for me to remember what happened in seasons past on A Show...I was just about to write that I hope Papa Lannister is our fallen Pater of the Month, then I remembered that Tyrion offed him whilst he sat upon his royal "throne", yes? But was that in the last epi?  I don't think we've seen the fallout yet from anyone finding ol Tywin sitting dead on the shitter. That? Ought to be delicious to watch, particularly Cersei's freakout. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy if you ask me.

 

Speaking of things I'd like to see/spec on...Since Arya is on a boat to Braavos, she cannot reconnect right now with Nymeria - assuming Nymeria is still alive and will reappear at some point - so wouldn't it be nice for the remaining direwolves to meet up together North of the Wall, and hang with/protect Rickon and Osha? That would make me happy.  Those pups are so badass and they're really my fav characters of A Show and they've been nothing but sidelined and forgotten for many a season now. Bah! BRING BACK DA WOLVES!

[Pallas]

IIRC the Tullys would be more a Uncle/nephew team, and from the lack of archery prowess of the nephew, I think the Uncle might be better as a one man "Team".

 

Thank you for the gentle correction, Anothermi!  Of course: Edmure and not Blackfish succeeded Hoster Tully -- which is why Frey pretended to grudgingly accept Edmure as the replacement bridegroom.  Meaning that Edmure was Hoster's son, and Blackfish, Hoster's brother.  

 

Rusty. Very rusty.  Consider that my Edmure's arrow, launched in the general vicinity of his father's funeral barge...  

 

I also wonder if the nickname Blackfish is evocative of the concept of being a black sheep of the family?  Just more water-ish...

 

I like the idea that Blackfish is the fish-family's renegade.  And that the color of night is a marker not so much of evil but of singularity or alienation. Like Drogon among his breathren.  Like the NIght's Watch within their families of origin, or their world.  

 

Come to think of it, does any Great Family we've met so far lack a prominent black sheep character?  Add to these individuals, whole communities of people -- the Night's Watch, the Wildlings, the slaves of Essos, the Unsullied, even the revived, magical beings -- A Show really is a Song of Cripples and Broken Things.  Ascendant.

 

I was just about to write that I hope Papa Lannister is our fallen Pater of the Month, then I remembered that Tyrion offed him whilst he sat upon his royal "throne", yes?

 

A Lannister always pays his debts: Tyrion requests the honor of fashioning you a saddle, gingerella.  Tywin Lannister, murdered in the shitter by his despised son the dwarf, and within a year, the deed...forgotten.  How goes your legacy now, my lord?

[stillshimpy]

Come to think of it, does any Great Family we've met so far lack a prominent black sheep character?

 

 

I was about to say that the Starks don't have one, but then I suppose Arya and lately Sansa are not exactly toeing the Stark honor line.  Neither did Rob fully (and good for him, I say, at least on some levels, because that poor guy was so going to die anyway and at least he was fairly happy, before Frey's dessert course, that is).  

 

I remember the various (and elderly) sons of Frey when Lady Catelyn went to ask for his help and they seemed a) sort of appalled by their dad's  lecherous ways b) like they were mainly nice humans.  I mean they weren't smirking it up like the crowd at Sansa's wedding, so I'm giving them some credit for at least being better than that.  

 

That's not much evidence of decency, I grant you.  Still, my point was going to be that maybe Frey was actually a departure from regular Frey stock.  

 

Then there are families like the Boltons where a good soul would stand out forty seven thousand miles....for the four or five hours they actually lived before Ramsay turned them into a lampshade, or wineskin, or whatever as Bolton stood by looking ...well, he basically only has one expression  sort of like a glacier somewhere between dead-serious and pissed-the-hell-off at all times.  

 

So what are the chances that Brienne and Pod are about to stumble across the Hound and save him, because they just are those people in this tale.  

 

I know we last saw The Hound dying slowly, but implied deaths don't always count for much and hell, when we last saw The Mountain, that three-times-cast bastard was so dead that the creepy Potions Maester had to invent the IV and presumably steal the soul of an innocent as sacrifice to bring him back.  Assuming he comes back.  Likely as another actor ,because The Mountain is like the Westeros version of the drummer in Spinal Tap in terms of a different face every season. 

[WhiteStumbler]

I am pretty sure that some of the Frey sons who were at Riverrun (negotiating the marriage of Edmure) were at the RW - in fact, I think that the one who sliced Cat's throat was at Riverrun. So my belief is that they are all equally despicable. If we see a nice Frey it will be a "white sheep" I suppose, but I doubt I will ever trust any of them.

[Pallas]

The Mountain is like the Westeros version of the drummer in Spinal Tap in terms of a different face every season.

 

Hee!  The fearsome Gregor Clegane is just the Seven Kingdoms' Bobby Draper... 

 

I too was thinking of Arya as the Stark black sheep, shimpy, and lifelong.  The way that little girl told Ned, "That won't do for me."  Her family may not have ostracized or even chided her much, but she was still young and her family was only just beginning to grasp that Arya was sincere and completely committed to having a different destiny than any girl not found in myth. (Brienne seems still to be have been an unknown.)  Jon Snow was treated as family by all but Catelyn -- who certainly gave him full recognition as Ned's bastard son -- but he too knew that he was set apart.  

 

Robb, Sansa and Rickon were different in not seeming to have been so different, once.  We don't really know what Rickon was like before winter came early to Winterfell.  Yet as soon as things went south (along with his parents and sisters), he expressed and embraced his peculiarities and visions with such a quickness...and still, even so, everyone around him from then on took up the task of keeping him from turning altogether feral.  And it seems they were succeeding too, last we saw him.

 

On her worst days -- which are most days -- Sansa fears she may have become her family's shame, yet we know that would never have been true.  And Robb, as you said, only committed one decisive and fatal act outside the Stark Way.  

 

So what are the chances that Brienne and Pod are about to stumble across the Hound and save him, because they just are those people in this tale.

 

I think the odds are spectacularly good, and that Sansa would appreciate the irony.  "They searched for me. They found The Hound.  And if I'd only left with him in Season Two..."

[stillshimpy]

Because I can never say it quite often enough: Poor freaking Sansa.  The young actor is so tall, it's easy to forget how young she is and she's going to try to match wits with Littlefinger?  Oh sure.  Nothing can go wrong there.  

 

Poor freaking Sansa. 

 

but she was still young and her family was only just beginning to grasp that Arya was sincere and completely committed to having a different destiny than any girl not found in myth

 

Aw crap, this just made me remember my favorite Ned moment.  I am and always will be a sucker for the good guy in a story, so Ned's idea of grasping that was to get her a fencing teacher.   No wonder Arya dedicates her blade to trying to kill the people on her list as an act of justice (or revenge and Arya is young enough to not perceive a difference) for her fallen family.  

 

Oh hey, fun moments brought to you by, Post Traumatic Show Disorder:  For one, single second I thought, "Hey does Arya know what happened to Robb and ...."  then my repressed memories rose up and recalled that, yeah, she does.  She nearly had a front row seat to the carnage.  

 

So someone upthread was wondering -- for the eleventy billionth time, which is cool, because that's what we do here -- if Syrio could have survived that showdown in the Dead Meat Corral and could he be Jaqen .  Forever and ever (or you know, since it went down) I've maintained the position that ...no.  Dude is dead.  We saw other soldiers from that scene alive and being thoroughly repugnant after that point in the story.   That they didn't, at any point, talk about how the guy fighting them off with the wooden equivalent of a spork managed to get away.  To me that has always meant, "It would be nice, because he was so fun, but nice and this show seldom meet.  Dude is dead.  In eleventy billion ribbons and likely fed to whatever the hell Joffrey kept as a pet.  A cross between a tarantula and  cobra (nothing warm blooded for Joffs). "  

However, they left The Hound in such an obvious: Okay, you don't have to be a long time scifi fan to know:  Offscreen deaths don't count.  Hell, half the time onscreen deaths don't count:  

 

But that wasn't what swayed me, at long last into "It shouldn't be possible, because his assailants survived, but it is possible"  ....It was Mountainstein that did it for me.  

If they are just bringing people back from the damned dead in this story, then yup, I will concede:  Sure.  Syrio could be alive and kicking, having gone through Jaqen's face and the other dude, who was nameless.   

[gingerella]

If they are just bringing people back from the damned dead in this story, then yup, I will concede:  Sure.  Syrio could be alive and kicking, having gone through Jaqen's face and the other dude, who was nameless.

Ahhhh, welcome to the dark side shimp!

 

ETA: I'm not writing off 'lil Sansa just yet...Methinks she is about to get the schooling of her life with Littlefinger (I wonder if that moniker is what's fueling his anger march?!) and that we just may see Sansa rise above her naiveté and become the most shrewd shrew that ever shrewed, I mean, just out of circumstances, not because she's a bitch naturally. Out of her entire family, she's probably been the most terrorized and seen the most awful shit and most importantly lived through it, and that level of constant tormenting and terrorizing, combined with her then thinking she had escaped only to experience her batshit cray cray Aunt Lysa?  Yeah, I'm in a 'wait n see' with Sansa this season because I think she has the potential to be a professional mind fucker given the tutelage of her soon to be hubby (they are sort of heading that way, right? I cant remember, but I remember Robin got the heave-ho so they could "be alone"...right?)

 

An aside...technically speaking, Sansa and Tyrion are still married, aren't they? I really hope they will find each other again and realign both powerwise and romantically, because I'm a suckah and I liked those two kids together.

Edited April 4, 2015 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

An aside...technically speaking, Sansa and Tyrion are still married, aren't they? I really hope they will find each other again and realign both powerwise and romantically, because I'm a suckah and I liked those two kids together.

I wouldn't have pegged you as an eternal optimist, but perhaps I got that wrong, given the above. 

 

I used to think I was an optimist, but this show has squished every last drop of optimism, regarding relationships, I had in me.  OTOH, I'm still optimistic that I will be surprised and entertained by the twists and turns of this story. At least that's something. 

[janjan]

Hail, Comrades! I raise a flagon to you at our joyous reunion! And may the Old Gods and the New rain blessings down upon HBO for rerunning all eps in the run-up to the new, that we may binge till our eyeballs o'erflow. Oh Gawd, did I just say eyeballs? I still haven't forgiven A Show for the dispatching of Prince Oberyn. Ick. But here we be, ready to commence on new adventures. Now if we can just find Nymeria and Benjen. . .

[ChocButterfly]

Hey Ginger! I think just "Choc" would be better :p

 

You know, I had forgotten about Twyin's death, too. You'd think you wouldn't forget something like that, but there you go! I had also forgotten about Blackfish, I don't remember how he escaped the carnage, but I know he's alive. So, the guy from Rome, he's Frey's prisoner now, no?

 

I'm a bit confused, apart from Mountainstein (heh!), who else hasn't really died that we thought had died? They're all dead, even Ned! Now, I wouldn't mind them bringing back Oberyn. I'm still furious about that. Ned's death, I could understand, and Rob's, Catherine's, all of them. But why did they have to kill Iñigo Martell??

 

I don't know why people keep bringing Syrio up, dude's dead, dead, dead. He wasn't that important. Jaquen couldn't be Syrio, he would have let Arya know somehow.

I'm also sure the Hound is dead as well, didn't we see him dying? I don't remember how, did Arya kill him?

[WhiteStumbler]

I'm also sure the Hound is dead as well, didn't we see him dying? I don't remember how, did Arya kill him?

 

The Hound got his butt kicked by Brienne and fell down a cliff. There was a bone sticking out of his leg, Arya asked if he was dying and he said 'Aye, I'm done' and asked if she remembered where the heart is, and then Arya stole his gold and left him yelling "kill me!".

 

Arya has had horrible luck with father-figures: Edd is a decapitated box of (now missing) bones (I hope Cat got them to Winterfell before the Ironborn scum took the castle), Syrio, with only a wooden sword, stood up to 3 Lannister soldiers + 1 Kingsguard (before dying offscreen imo), Yoren took a crossbow bolt and was run thru by three spears before a sword stabbed him thru the shoulder and into his heart, and The Hound was left begging for death (also before dying offscreen imo).

[gingerella]

I don't know why people keep bringing Syrio up, dude's dead, dead, dead. He wasn't that important. Jaquen couldn't be Syrio, he would have let Arya know somehow.

I'm also sure the Hound is dead as well, didn't we see him dying? I don't remember how, did Arya kill him?

Choc, no, no, no!  IMO Syrio was the whole reason that Arya became such a badass assassin-in-training! If it weren't for Syrio, her "dance master", Arya wouldn't have learned how to use needle in such a precise and deadly manner. I think he was an incredibly important person in her life at that moment and I don't know if she'd be where she was now if she hadn't had those "dance lessons" when she got to KL. 

 

But if we're talking Oberyn, yeah, I'm totally holding hands with you on that shameful event. A Story really let us down with that one.

[Anothermi]

Re: Ned Starks bones. My speculation is that they are kicking around in Olenna Tyrell's storage rooms back in Highgarden. I think this because Catelyn saw the box of bones when Littlefinger brought them to her when she came to make an alliance for Robb with the then living King Renly Baratheon. She wouldn't have been able able to bring them with her when she left because she was kinda in a hurry - what with Smoke Baby Baratheon having killed Renly and Brienne being blamed for his death. She vamoosed outta there, with a reluctant Brienne, leaving no time to pick up Ned-in-a-box.  (heavy use of the Unsullied Character index for this short bit.)

 

Another real possibility is that Littlefinger still has them and they are now with HIM at the Aeryie. I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, but Poor Sansa!

Edited April 6, 2015 by Anothermi

[janjan]

Choc: I had also forgotten about Blackfish, I don't remember how he escaped the carnage, but I know he's alive.

Having just watched the Red Wedding twice -- twice! -- (because HBO is rerunning on two different channels, one ep out of sync), I can quote the Blackfish:  "I have to go find a tree to piss on."

 

That makes me wonder what facilities Walder Frey, or anyone, provided, if any, for guests' comfort, especially after much Imbibing. And what did women do? A tree would not be my first choice at such a time. But the location of Lord Tywin's final moments reassures us that A Show's creators are aware of that human need, even if they mostly choose to ignore it. (Shades of Jack Bauer.)

 

I worried briefly about whether GoT can continue being compelling when everybody interesting is either dead or on the run, and all separated from each other. Luckily, Tyrion and Varys have each other, although Varys doesn't have LF to spar with. Oh yeah, and Stannis and Jon Snow have each other [yawn]. But A Show survived and thrived even after the deaths of totally central figures like Ned, Robb, and Joffrey, so I guess it's their way of not getting stale. But they didn't have to kill off Oberyn. {sniff]

[ChocButterfly]

The Hound got his butt kicked by Brienne and fell down a cliff. There was a bone sticking out of his leg, Arya asked if he was dying and he said 'Aye, I'm done' and asked if she remembered where the heart is, and then Arya stole his gold and left him yelling "kill me!".

OMG, yes!! Now I remember! That was awsome, and also... incredibly cold. That convinced me that Arya, indeed, has become a sociopath. Not only does she steal his gold, she leaves him in agonizing pain to suffer, ignoring his cries. Ha! I mean, I know the Hound was also a real bastard, but you'd think she at least cared a bit for him.

 

That makes me wonder what facilities Walder Frey, or anyone, provided, if any, for guests' comfort, especially after much Imbibing. And what did women do? A tree would not be my first choice at such a time.

Well, considering how hospitable Frey is, I'm nost surprised his guests are forced to pee behind a tree.

 

Ok, Ginger, you're right, Syrio was fine. I'm just too angry about Oberyn to care.

 

Speaking of Ned's bones, I hadn't thought about it, but Littlefinger must have them. I doubt the Tyrells kept them.

 

Edited to add: Post Traumatic Show Disorder, ha!!

Edited April 6, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[WhiteStumbler]

Ha! I mean, I know the Hound was also a real bastard, but you'd think she at least cared a bit for him.

The Hound was on Arya's list. I guess she could have "crossed him off" with a sword to the heart, but letting him suffer seemed like vengeance.

If Arya manages to remain even remotely human and decent after what she has seen and gone thru, it will be amazing. Same with Sansa.

[janjan]

 

That makes me wonder what facilities Walder Frey, or anyone, provided, if any, for guests' comfort, especially after much Imbibing. And what did women do? A tree would not be my first choice at such a time.

Well, considering how hospitable Frey is, I'm nost surprised his guests are forced to pee behind a tree.

 

To be precise, Blackfish didn't say "behind"; he said "on." Maybe he likes the spatter pattern.

 

So Blackfish lives and will no doubt plot his revenge, perhaps with the assistance of his useless nephew, who survives in Frey's dungeon. Whether at the hand of Tully or some other, betcha Frey will get his. I say this not because A Show is big on justice but because of the quick cut from Frey cackling to Bolton about his triumph to Bran telling the cook->rat story, and saying the one thing the Gods won't forgive is killing a guest under your roof.

 

I want to be there when it happens.

Edited April 6, 2015 by janjan

[WhiteStumbler]

Re-Watch continues. Just finished S4E04: Oathkeeper last night. Caught this...

Janos Slynt: But you can't be acting Commander forever. There will be a Choosing. The old Maester will insist on it. You might reconsider his (Jon Snuh's) request to march on Craster's. Let the mutineers take care of Snow. Or you might be taking orders from him the rest of your life.

 

So there will be some sort of election of a new Lord Commander? And Slynt is worried that Jon will be elected. I wonder how the arrival of Stannis changes that calculus (if at all).

 

Pure Speculation: Since Littlefinger has effective control over The Vale (as the regent of Robin), and with the Key to The North (Sansa) by his side, could The Vale (with the backing of LF's "new friends" the Tyrells) move against Bolton (and any remaining Iron Islanders still lurking about) and retake The North? And maybe Brienne is at Sansa's side?

 

So Robin marries Sansa, making him lord of The Vale and The North. Then he dies in a "mysterious accident", and Sansa inherits both titles. LF marries Sansa, then HE is Lord of Harrenhal, The Vale, and The North.

 

Another wrinkle is that Stannis is now at the Wall, and Bolton could be between two powerful enemies. As much as I would love to have more Bolton and Greyjoy blood spilled, it is a tough proposition to root for when it would empower LF.

[Anothermi]

Hmmm. Interesting bit from Janos Slynt. Toadying up to someone (anyone, I guess. It's in his nature) in order to secure a comfy place for himself in the pecking order. I vaguely remember that bit. Guess I didn't pay much attention because I wasn't sure who would end up still alive. 

 

I think your speculation about Littlefinger has a lot of merit, but I found my mind wandering - as it is wont to do to avoid nastiness. And Littlefinger is the embodiment of slimy (yet compelling) nastiness. I don't want to look, but I can't stop myself. I can, however, avoid thinking about him... until the new season starts. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

As much as I would love to have more Bolton and Greyjoy blood spilled, it is a tough proposition to root for when it would empower LF.

Yes White Stumbler, in as much as I agree with the above in theory, in reality - well, A Show's reality that is - at least Littlefinger is a repulsive, creepy yet quite intriguing character to watch on A Show because one never really knows what is behind each move in his life's chess game or what his end game actually is. The Bolton's OTOH, are just nasty, debased pieces of fetid shite, so I'm quite happy to see LF get more power if it means finally getting the fucking Bolton's off A Show and out of A Viewer's mind once and for all, thankyouverymuch!

[ChocButterfly]

I thought that was exactly Littlefinger's end game plan. He already controls the Vale,  wants to control The North (with Sansa) and from there on the other kingdoms, making them fight between each other, so at the end he'd be sitting on the Iron Throne when they all kill each other. Or maybe he prefers to rule behind the power. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[janjan]

I like this LF spitball. It fits with Varys's statement that LF would gladly destroy the realm if he could be king of the ashes.

[Pallas]

There does remain the problem of Sansa's husband-in-a-box.  Of course her marriage to Tyrion could be dealt with by a wave of A Creator's hand, authorizing any one of a number of possible grounds for annulment.  Or Littlefinger could himself declare the annulment a done deal, with neither Sansa nor anyone in the Vale or the North of any mind to contradict him.  

 

It's hard to say if this would set him against the remaining Lannisters in power, or near it.  Cersei has her own reasons for wanting control over Sansa, beginning with what may be her sincere belief that Sansa was somehow involved in Joffrey's murder.  At a minimum, she will probably not want to cede that decision to Littlefinger or anyone else.  

 

How, I wonder, will Littlefinger respond to the news that Tyrion killed Tywin?  How public will that be?  Will Jaime try to persuade Cersei that it does them no good to declare that their brother escaped and then killed their father?  Especially as Jaime was involved in that brother's escape? 

 

If Cersei does announce that Tywin was murdered, and Tyrion the killer, someone still at hand in King's Landing is going to have take the fall.  

[WhiteStumbler]

janjan: Reminds me of this from S1:

 

Varys: When you imagine yourself up there, how do you look? Does the crown fit? Do all the lords and ladies simper and bow, the ones who sneered at you for years?

LF: It's hard for them to simper and bow without heads.
V: A man with great ambition and no morals-- I wouldn't bet against you.

You know, I completely overlooked Husband-In-A-Box in my spitball. It is a pretty tenuous marriage alliance at this point -- a marriage that was never consummated, between the daughter of a man executed for treason (who was also sister to a rebel) and an Imp convicted (via trial by head squish) of killing his king, said Imp being likely to be accused and convicted in absentia of killing the Hand his father, and now off to parts unknown. Interesting...

 

I agree with Pallas that A Show could hand-wave it (ETA "the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion") away, or make it important.

 

My re-watch proceeds and I was amazed I didn't remember this: When Jojen Reed and the Bran Muffins were being held by the mutineers at Craster's Keep, Jojen had a vision of the huge weirwood tree above the Three Eyed Root Dude, and he also has a vision of his own hand engulfed in flame. Because that was how he died after the Manic Pixie Child of the Forest lobbed an exploding fire grenade at him. Root Dude later says "He (Jojen) knew what would happen. From the moment he left, he knew and he went anyway." Good stuff.

 

Another Spitball: Since Tyrion has lost his drinking companion / sellsword, and Jorah is looking for work after being dismissed from Dany's service, and they will both be on the same continent soon, could Jorah and Tyrion + Varys meet up? As much as I like Jerome Flynn (who plays Bronn), it seems likely we have seen the last of him now that he is married and no longer employed by Tyrion. And I really like Jorah (I noticed his armor has a cool bear across his abdomen) and don't want him to vanish from the show, so that is what I want to have happen.

Edited April 10, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Pallas]

Ah, Tyrion and Jorah, the replacement Bronn: what a great idea!  My only misgiving is that, at least right now, it would rule out the notion that Tyrion attaches himself to Dany's court (as the replacement Jorah).  Finally bringing the two hemispheres of A Story together, and giving Tyrion a new lease on power-at-one-remove.  And, setting up the ultimate Meet Cute of Tyrion and the dragons.   

 

But of course, Jorah could be exactly the means by which Tyrion finds his way to Dany.  And perhaps -- even more eventually -- the means by which Dany is persuaded to forgive Jorah.  

 

Or...very much alternately...Jorah brings Tyrion Lannister -- lately Hand to the (False) King -- to Dany as a war prize, seeking her forgiveness that way.  With or without Varys: he who either did or really didn't try to have Dany assassinated.

 

Oh!  That reminds me: a meeting between Jorah and Varys should yield some interesting backstory.