Book 4: A Feast For Crows

[Avaleigh]

Damn it this book has a boring start. It's easily the most boring opening set of chapters in comparison to the other four books. The Cersei chapter is the only interesting chapter out of the bunch. I used to think it was an exaggeration when people said that Brienne's chapters are coma inducing but that's basically what this last chapter was. 

I guess I'm happy that Brienne found that there are still a few decent people in Westeros. It was nice of her to treat the guys to sleeping in an actual bed for a change. 

[Avaleigh]

Samwell I

Sam is reading about the Others. He reads until his eyes feel raw and he can't remember the last time he slept. When he realizes that he hasn't eaten since yesterday, he decides to take a break. 

It looks like it's going to snow and this makes Sam think about what happened on the Fist of the First Men. He worries that the wights might come with the snow but tries to take comfort in the fact that he's surrounded by his Sworn Brothers as well as the army of Stannis Baratheon.

Sam thinks about how there were dragons at the Wall two hundred years ago and wonders if one of the dragons might have left an egg behind. He wonders where Stannis might have found a dragon egg and how he expects to make it hatch when multiple Targaryens failed in their attempts. 

Edd tells Sam that Jon wants to speak with him as soon as he's done speaking with Craster's wife Gilly. 

Sam talks for a bit with Pyp and Grenn and Pyp jokingly complains that Jon no longer has time for his friends. Sam defends Jon and says that Jon has duties now that he's Lord Commander. Grenn points out that Jon's duties don't keep him from training in the yard and Sam thinks about how Jon told him that "a swordsman should be as good as his sword".

Sam runs into Gilly as she's leaving Jon's quarters and they have a short conversation. Sam asks her how the babies are and makes some general small talk. Sam thinks that Gilly looks frightened and she soon excuses herself by saying that she needs to feed the babies. Her eyes are full of tears as she leaves and Sam is left feeling confused. 

Jon shows Sam a letter that he's going to send to King's Landing explaining that even though he's currently helping Stannis, he and the rest of the Night's Watch are not Stannis's men.

The conversation turns to Mance Rayder and Ssm says that he's heard gossip that Melisandre wants to burn Mance alive in order to wake a sleeping dragon. Jon admits that he's heard the same thing but thinks that it's all nonsense. Jon says that Mance's blood is no more royal than his own. 

Jon tells Sam that he'll be sending Gilly and the babe away.

Jon asks Sam to tell him what he's been reading about the Others. Sam says that the Others seem to hide from the light of the sun. They come when it's cold (or they bring the cold) and they're said to ride the corpses of animals. He's read accounts of giant ice spiders and says that men who die in battle against the Others will turn into wights if their bodies are not burned. Sam says that dragonsteel is supposed to work against the Others but he and Jon are unsure if dragonsteel is the same thing as Valyrian steel. 

Jon tells Sam that he's going to travel south with Gilly and Maester Aemon. They're going to go to Oldtown. Sam thinks that Aemon will be too weak for the journey, but Jon thinks it's better for Aemon to leave rather than risk being burned alive by Melisandre. Dareon will also be traveling with them once they get to Eastwatch. Jon hopes that Dareon's songs will inspire some men to join the Night's Watch. 

Jon tells Sam that he has a choice of either sending Gilly to Horn Hill or having Aemon find a servant's place for her in the Citadel. 

Jon lets Sam know that he wants him to become a maester and Sam has a freak out session as he remembers the trauma he suffered after his father chained him to a wall for three days and nights after Sam told him that he wanted to become a maester. Sam tells Jon that he can't disobey his father.

Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice. "You have no father," said Lord Snow. "Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night's Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack, along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown. You leave an hour before sunrise. And here's another order. From this day forth, you will not call yourself a craven. You've faced more things this past year than most men face in a lifetime. You can face the Citadel, but you'll face it as a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. I can't command you to be brave, but I can command you to hide your fears. You said the words, Sam. Remember?"

Sam agrees to do as Jon commands and Jon tells him not to have any farewells. He says the fewer people who know the plan, the better off they'll be.

Sam confides his fears to Maester Aemon and Aemon tells Sam a little about how he ended up being sent to the Citadel by his grandfather. Aemon tells Sam that Jon is right to send him to become a maester.

When Sam, Aemon, Gilly and the baby go to leave for Eastwatch, Sam can tell that Gilly has been crying. Aemon tells Jon that he left a book for him to read and reminds Jon that knowledge is also a powerful weapon. 

Before they leave, Gilly asks Jon to take good care of Dalla's baby. She asks him to find the baby another wet nurse and asks that he not be named until he's more than two years old. 

As they begin to leave, Sam wonders if this will be the last time he ever sees Castle Black. Clydas, Edd, and Jon all say goodbye to Sam and Jon tells Sam that he has more courage than he realizes.

[Avaleigh]

Another boring chapter. Sam reads all of these books and we still don't get any new info on the Others. 

Randyll Tarly is such a dick. Chaining his son up to a wall for three days because Sam wanted to be a maester? How is it better to have a son go to the Wall instead of the Citadel? Dickon could still be the heir. 

I did kind of laugh at Pyp or Grenn giving Sam the name Sam the Seducer. They don't even know how close Sam is to finally getting a girlfriend. 

You can definitely tell that Jon is thinking "kill the boy" in this chapter. I like that Maester Aemon is looking forward to his final journey even though it makes me sad that he won't live long enough to meet Dany. 

Jon's idea of sending Dareon south wouldn't be so bad if joining the Night's Watch didn't have to be a lifetime vow. As it is, how is a song going to get a bunch of young guys to voluntarily go to the coldest place in Westeros where they'll be expected to give up the right to have a love life and family? It's a totally unrealistic expectation. 

Jon's idea of making the garrison have daily archery practice is a good one. I also like that he's training with his sword now more than ever and feels like he has a duty to the Old Bear for honoring him with Longclaw. I wonder if book Jorah and Jon will ever meet.

I like the line where Jon says that Mance's blood is no more royal than his. 

Sam shows remarkable strength and loyalty by refraining from mentioning that Bran is still alive. I wonder how many other characters would be able to keep that secret?

[Avaleigh]

Arya I

As she sails into Braavos, Arya thinks about everything she's been through since leaving King's Landing. She's learned a few Braavosi words during the journey and is currently going by the name Salty. She learns that all of the gods are honored in Braavos and wonders if they have a godswood. She only has six names on her list now and continues to say them to herself every night.

When they arrive in Braavos, Arya is surprised to see that the city has no walls. The captain tells her that it's time to go ashore and Arya wishes that the captain would give her permission to stay. She can see though that the captain is anxious to be rid of her, so she gets her belongings so that she can go ashore.

Braavos is a bunch of little islands that are connected with bridges. Arya notices that there are no trees to be seen. Arya passes a bunch of temples including the red temple of the Lord of Light. She thinks about how Thoros of Myr was able to give Beric the kiss of life and wonders if the red priests of Braavos are capable of doing the same thing. 

Arya is dropped off at the House of Black and White. The doors open for her when she says valar morghulis and as she walks through the temple she sees people in alcoves who are either dead or dying. When she reaches the center of the temple, she talks with a man who starts telling her about the Many-Faced God. Arya explains that she's come to find Jaqen H'ghar but the man says that he doesn't know anyone by that name. 

The man asks Arya to tell him her name. At first she tells him that her name is Salty and claims that she is from the Saltpans by the Trident. The man doesn't believe her and asks for her true name. She tells him her name is Squab, then says Nan but claims her nickname is Weasel. When asked again, she says that her name is Arry. After being prodded yet again for the truth, she finally tells him that she is Arya of House Stark. 

The man tells her that the House of Black and White is no place for Arya of House Stark, but Arya pleads and says that she has no place to go. The man asks her if she fears death and she bites her lip before saying no. The man says they'll see and lowers his hood so that she can see his yellow skull of a face. A white worm is wriggling from one of his eye sockets as he asks Arya to kiss him. Arya kisses the man where his nose should be and tries to eat the worm that's dangling from his eye. The worm melts "like a shadow" in her hand.

The yellow skull was melting too, and the kindliest old man that she had ever seen was smiling down at her. "No one has ever tried to eat my worm before," he said. "Are you hungry, child?"

Yes, she thought, but not for food.

[Lady S.]

On 3/21/2018 at 7:53 PM, Avaleigh said:

Randyll Tarly is such a dick. Chaining his son up to a wall for three days because Sam wanted to be a maester? How is it better to have a son go to the Wall instead of the Citadel? 

Probably because the NW is more manly and they at least keep their family name so they're not just chained servants. Plus, Randyll doesn't just prefer Dickon to be his heir, he really, really hates Sam, saying that if Sam refused to take the black and he had to kill him, nothing would make him happier. At the Wall, Sam could still be killed, while as a maester he'd be safe and happy. I think the chained to the wall revelation is overkill by GRRM, though. We already got that this guy was up there with Tywin in Bad Dads of Westeros Hall of Fame with the wanting to murder his own son bit.

Also a bit much was Sam thinking killing a mouse would give him nightmares, but I'm not surprised he shares my opinion about that terrifying winch cage.

On 3/21/2018 at 7:53 PM, Avaleigh said:

I like the line where Jon says that Mance's blood is no more royal than his. 

I wonder if that's where the crazy Mance = Rhaegar theory started.

Jon/Sam's goodbye gets to me a little, partly because the snow melting in Sam's hair is a reference to the snowflakes melting in Robb's the last day Jon (and the girls) saw him, which Jon must be remembering.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

Having just borrowed this from the library, I can (for once!) speak with actual knowledge as opposed to vague recollections of how it went. But my recollections of "not a lot happening" were pretty accurate...

Prologue: Zzzzz. Maybe this might become important somewhere in Winds of Winter (whenever that appears!) but otherwise, we really don't need another conspiracy introduced at this point, GRRM!

Damphair: Balon's dead & Aeron's crazy (but at least he' actually good at mouth to mouth)!

Dorne: Oberyn is still dead and the Sand Snakes want to start a war. Doran thinks that would be bad for the children.

Cersei: OK, this was somewhat interesting. OK, most people probably reckoned Cersei was a little crazy, but we actually get into just how crazy. Yes, Tywin must have been interrogating the naked girl in his bed, because he had no truck with prostitutes. Kevan's always been Tywin's Yes Man, so he'll do what I say now. And maybe if I call everyone incompetent I'll... get some more competent underlings? OK, she does end up with Qyburn but you wouldn't (unless you're Cersei!) call him trustworthy.

Brienne: Commenting on your quest being a shaggy dog story doesn't make it interesting to read. And did Brienne just ask everyone except Arya herself about the missing Stark children?

Sam: So you did a lot of research and... didn't learn anything. But Road (well, boat) Trip!

Arya: Maybe some forward progress here, but we're crawling forward!

[benteen]

Great recaps, Avaleigh.

I'll have more to say on these posts soon but there is one thing I'll touch on now...

Quote

I like the line where Jon says that Mance's blood is no more royal than his. 

THIS.  Mance is a self-proclaimed King.  I suppose just about everyone's line starts out as a self-proclaimed King at some point.  But Mance is a guy who declared himself the King Beyond the Wall and by doing so, this automatically makes his blood special?  So by Melisandre's logic, if Hobbs the Night's Watch cook declares himself to be a King, he now will have magic blood too.  Every time King Hobbs the cook has a nose bleed will apparently be one step closer to defeating the White Walkers...

[nodorothyparker]

I'll be honest that while I separately find Cersei's and Jaime's chapters in this book fascinating (and Cersei's often batshit entertaining), most of the rest of this is a real slog.  I know we're supposed to love Arya in Braavos but I just don't.  I like her travels in the previous books because of the way she occasionally crosses paths with other characters, hears bits and pieces of other intersecting stories, or even deals with their aftermath.  Shipping her off by herself puts an end to all that.   The whole murky concept of the Faceless Men feels like an elaborate cheat code I don't care enough about to try to figure out.

[benteen]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:58 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I'll be honest that while I separately find Cersei's and Jaime's chapters in this book fascinating (and Cersei's often batshit entertaining), most of the rest of this is a real slog.  I know we're supposed to love Arya in Braavos but I just don't.  I like her travels in the previous books because of the way she occasionally crosses paths with other characters, hears bits and pieces of other intersecting stories, or even deals with their aftermath.  Shipping her off by herself puts an end to all that.   The whole murky concept of the Faceless Men feels like an elaborate cheat code I don't care enough about to try to figure out.

THIS.  GRRM has commented that he loves Arya's adventures and that he could write a bunch of them but I don't share that opinion.  Even a character like Tyrion suffers from being in the void that is Essos.  Arya belongs in Westeros as Tyrion belongs in King's Landing.  What happens in Essos isn't important.

[Lady S.]

On 3/23/2018 at 3:39 PM, benteen said:

THIS.  Mance is a self-proclaimed King.  I suppose just about everyone's line starts out as a self-proclaimed King at some point.  But Mance is a guy who declared himself the King Beyond the Wall and by doing so, this automatically makes his blood special?  So by Melisandre's logic, if Hobbs the Night's Watch cook declares himself to be a King, he now will have magic blood too.  Every time King Hobbs the cook has a nose bleed will apparently be one step closer to defeating the White Walkers...

Getting a bit ahead of ourselves here, but there's no evidence Mel actually believes this. Jon and Aemon are basing their fears on rumors from the soldiers. Mel ends up saving Mance's life behind Jon's back by switching him with Rattleshirt, which is very odd if she truly believed his blood would magically wake dragons, given how eager she was to try the same kingsblood trick with Edric and how Davos had to go behind her back to save him. Aemon might be in some genuine danger with his blood of the dragon, but IMO Mance and his son were not, which makes Gilly's needless loss of her son all the sadder.

As for Arya, I never much cared for her Braavos time either, but the show version managed to make it even worse for me, which puts the book chapters in a new perspective as not so bad.

I don't mind the early worldbuilding about religion in Braavos. I like Arya remembering Old Nan's stories about the Titan to her and Sansa. Amusing that she reassures herself that her new alter-ego "Salty" is not highborn, as if a hypothetical child-eating giant would actually distinguish between classes and only eat highborn girls.  That childish fear kind of disproves her other thought that she's "almost a woman grown" (and therefore too old to be eaten). 

Important to note that she only ends up at the HoBaW because she has nowhere else to go, thinking the Captain's refusal to take her to Jon at the Wall was like the earlier obstacles keeping her from Winterfell and Riverrun. Also that she already regrets not giving the Hound the gift of mercy.

The skull face and the dusty worm is certainly a memorable ending image. I do prefer that to the show version where they made her wait outside a night and then let her in the next day for no apparent reason, though the initial door slam was pretty funny.

[John Potts]

I've always assumed that King's Blood is only important because people think it's important (it would fit with GRRM's political leanings for him to have Kings being no more important than any other folk). It would give rise to such posers as, "Is Arya's blood special because she's sister of one King, half sister (well, cousin) of another and (very distantly!) descendant of the Kings of Winter?" Just how royal does blood have to be special? It would make more sense if it's a case of "Your mind makes it real". Maybe Mel was testing out whether using Rattleshirt's blood would work if people believed it was Mance's?

19 hours ago, Lady S. said:

The skull face and the dusty worm is certainly a memorable ending image.

It always makes me think of the worm at the bottom of a bottle of Tequila! But I do like the idea that Arya really commits to doing things when she sets her mind to it.

Edited March 27, 2018 by John Potts

[Avaleigh]

Cersei II

Cersei and Tommen are in a litter heading toward the Great Sept. Tommen wanted to ride his horse to the Sept so that he could throw pennies to the smallfolk, but Cersei won't allow it because she's worried that riding in the rain will make him ill. 

Tommen says that Lady Jocelyn told him that the gods are weeping for Tywin and that's why it's raining. Cersei says that Jocelyn Swyft is a fool who doesn't know what she's talking about and says that if the gods could cry they would have cried for Joffrey. 

Tommen notices that there aren't as many people in the streets as there were when Robert died. Cersei claims that the rain is what's keeping people inside but admits to herself that Tywin was never loved by the people of King's Landing. When Cersei sees that the number of mourners are outnumbered by the gold cloaks, she tells herself that more people will show up later.

When Cersei sees the new High Septon she remembers that he became High Septon because of Tyrion. She worries about what Tyrion might have told him about her.

Jaime is standing vigil over Tywin's body and Cersei thinks about how Tywin would have been unhappy to see Jaime dressed in white as opposed to the colors of House Lannister.

As Cersei looks at Tywin's body and face she notices that his lips are curved in a half smile. Seeing the smile on Tywin's face makes Cersei angry at Pycelle all over again and reminds her of how useless he's been lately. 

Cersei thinks that the half smile on his face makes her father look less fearful. She remembers how unsettling his eyes were and how it was almost as though he could use them to see inside of a person and pick up on their internal flaws. 

Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, "If we need gold, His Grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot." Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst Father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father's eyes, then ignored him, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red-faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.

Tommen asks Cersei what smells so bad and she realizes that the bad smell is coming from Tywin's body. 

Everyone kneels as the seven septons pray to the Father Above and the seventy seven septas sing before the altar of the Mother. Cersei looks around and notices that Jaime refuses to make eye contact with her. When Cersei sees how old and frail seventeen year old Lancel looks, she thinks about how absurd it is that the gods would allow Lancel to live and not Tywin. 

Cersei watches the Tyrells and starts wondering about which of Margaery's ladies is the hungriest for favor. 

Cersei interacts with the mourners. Lord Gyles tells her that he's having a statue made of Tywin to stand vigil beside the Lion Gate. The Redwynes and Stokeworths pay their respects and Falyse Stokeworth asks if her sister Lollys may have permission to name her baby Tywin if it turns out to be a boy. Cersei says there's no way that she's giving Lollys permission to name her bastard after Tywin.

Cersei speaks with Kevan and reminds him that they'll be meeting with each other later. After Kevan leaves, Cersei speaks with Lancel and talks to him about his upcoming wedding to a widowed daughter of House Frey. Lancel is unhappy about his upcoming marriage and Cersei   grows concerned when Lancel hints that he's still in love with her. When Lancel says that his life was spared so that he might atone for his sins, Cersei starts worrying about how Lancel plans to atone. She also wonders if Lancel has confessed anything to the new High Septon. Cersei finishes the conversation by telling Lancel that atonement is best achieved through "silent prayer".

Cersei talks with Margaery and Margaery's ladies, and Cersei is annoyed when she has to give her consent to the pregnant Lady Graceford to name her child either Tywin or Lanna. 

Lady Merryweather also speaks with Cersei and Cersei is immediately intrigued by the Myrish woman. Lady Merryweather says that she has many friends across the narrow sea who are ready to seize Tyrion should he happen to show his face in Myr, Lys or Tyrosh. Cersei is impressed with Taena Merryweather's beauty and ambition and tells Taena that they must speak again. 

Mace Tyrell speaks with Cersei and hints that he'd like to be made Hand of the King. Mace also mentions that Tywin asked his uncle Garth to be the new master of coin, but Cersei says that she's already asked Lord Gyles to to serve in the position instead. Mace is flustered by this news and insists that Tywin already asked Garth to be master of coin. Not only did Garth accept the offer but he's already on his way to Oldtown so that he can sail for King's Landing. 

Olennna Tyrell joins the conversation and tells Mace to send word to Garth not to come to King's Landing. Cersei wonders when Olenna plans on heading back to Highgarden and Olenna replies that she doesn't plan to leave until Tommen and Margaery are married. Mace says that he and Tywin had been close to setting a date for Tommen and Margaery's wedding and suggests that he and Cersei continue the discussion. Cersei tells Mace that they'll speak about it soon. As Mace and Olenna turn to leave Cersei, Cersei promises herself that she'll see Olenna dead.

Cersei gives Tommen permission to ride back to the Red Keep so that she can share her litter with Lord Gyles. As she and Gyles head back to the castle Cersei asks him to be her master of coin and when he accepts, she tells him to tell anyone who asks that she appointed him to the post the day before. As Gyles has a coughing fit, Cersei thinks about how she'll have to replace him once he dies. She suspects that Littlefinger won't be allowed to be Lord Protector of the Vale for much longer and guesses that he'll eventually come crawling back to King's Landing. 

Qyburn speaks with Cersei when she returns to the Red Keep. He informs her that the gaoler who disappeared the night Tyrion escaped had a pre-Conquest coin hidden in his cell that depicts a king of House Gardener. Cersei puts the coin away and says she'll think about it later.

Qyburn also updates her on the health of Gregor Clegane. Qyburn says that Gregor was poisoned with maticore venom but says that the poison has been thickened somehow so as not to kill Gregor instantly. There's nothing Qyburn can do to ease Gregor's pain and says that it's a miracle that Clegane is still managing to cling to life given the state of his body. Cersei says that it's past time they sent for Ser Ilyn to deal with Clegane but Qyburn asks for permission to move Gregor into the dungeons so that he can experiment on him and learn more about the poison that was used. Cersei gives her permission as long as Qyburn agrees to keep his experiments confined to the black cells. She also asks that Qyburn give her Gregor's head when he's finished so that she can have it sent to Dorne.

Cersei and Kevan have dinner together and Cersei tells him that she wants to be able to rely on him the way her father did. Kevan brings up the fact that Jaime rejected Cersei's offer to be Hand and Cersei replies that Jaime is too foolish to be Hand anyway.

Kevan says that he really wants to focus on helping Lancel but Cersei responds by saying that both Tommen and the realm need Kevan more. Kevan finally agrees to serve as Hand provided that he also be made Regent over Tommen. In addition to being made Regent, he says that he won't serve as Hand unless Cersei agrees to return to Casterly Rock. 

Kevan says that it was Tywin's plan to have Cersei sent back to the Rock and for her to eventually take a new husband. Cersei says that she isn't interested in marrying again and Kevan says that he won't force her to marry if she's against the idea. He reminds Cersei that she's the Lady of Casterly Rock and tells her that her place is there. 

Cersei points out that she's Queen Regent and insists that her place is with her son. Kevan tells Cersei to open her eyes and says that the kingdom is currently in ruins. As Kevan starts to talk about how Tywin might have been able to fix things, Cersei interrupts him and declares that she'll fix everything. Kevan tells her that she isn't her father. 

Kevan tells Cersei that she should go to Casterly Rock and leave the ruling of the realm to people who are less inclined to make foolish decisions. When Cersei shrieks that Tommen is her son, Kevan says that Cersei is as unfit of a mother as she is a ruler. After Kevan says this, Cersei throws her cup of wine into her uncle's face and angrily tells him that he has no right to give her terms. 

Kevan tells Cersei that he's rich, he has hundreds of knights under his command and the gold to buy more if necessary. He counsels Cersei against making him her enemy and advises her to make either Mathis Rowan or Randyll Tarly Hand of the King. Kevan explains that she can avoid offending Mace if she chooses one of his bannermen

"Mathis Rowan is sensible, prudent, well liked," her uncle went on, oblivious. "Randyll Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm. A poor Hand for peacetime, but with Tywin dead there's no better man to finish this war. Lord Tyrell cannot take offense if you choose one of his own bannermen as Hand. Both Tarly and Rowan are able men. . . and loyal. Name either one, and you make him yours. You strengthen yourself and weaken Highgarden, yet Mace will thank you for it." He gave a shrug. "That is my counsel, take it or no. You may make Moon Boy your Hand for all I care. My brother is dead, woman. I am going to take him home."

Cersei is incensed that Kevan would recommend two Tyrell bannermen for the job and wonders if her uncle has taken gold from the Tyrells. She calls him a traitor and tells him that he's abandoning Tommen.

"Tommen has his mother." Ser Kevan's green eyes met her own, unblinking. A last drop of wine trembled wet and red beneath his chin, and finally fell. "Aye," he added softly, after a pause, "and his father too, I think."

[benteen]

Cersei's chapters are a lot of fun and you have some great interaction here.

LISTEN to Kevan, Cersei!

If it wasn't for the fact that Cersei is so unlikeable, I would easily say that Mace asking about jobs at her father's funeral is in really bad taste.

[John Potts]

Ah, more crazy Cersei. All through the chapter, I'm reminded of Tywin's line, "I don't distrust you because you're a woman, I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are." Throughout she assumes everyone will bend to her will and nothing she does will go wrong - and when it does, she blames everyone else. It never seems to occur to her that while indulging Joffrey caused him to turn into a sociopathic monster, coddling Tommen is unlikely to turn him into the next "Lion of Lannister". Nor does it occur to her that while she might be able to use Taena to spy on Margery, her daughter in law might be using her to spy on Cersei. Sure, there IS a lot of latent sexism in people dismissing her, but berating everybody for not bending to her will is not going to change that - Tyrion managed to be a competent Hand despite being despised as a dwarf, after all.

Kevan shows, despite Cersei's opinion, that while he might not be the political genius that Tywin was, has a much better grasp on political realities than his niece. You NEED the Tyrells, Your Grace, perhaps don't go out of your way to slight them at every opportunity!

[nodorothyparker]

I love Cersei's chapters so much just for the sheer entertainment value of seeing that yes, she really is every bit as egocentric and self-involved as she had appeared in other POVs.  What makes her POV so interesting is that she's never entirely wrong in that she often has the basic bones of matters correct, i.e., Jaime is pulling away from her, the Tyrells are looking for openings to muscle the Lannisters out, she is being taken less seriously because she's a woman, but she consistently draws the wrong conclusions from them and makes things worse by either Scarlett O'Haraing them off as I'll think about it tomorrow or behaving like the petty, irrational idiot so many of these people already believe her to be.

We get more glimpses of what a nightmare of a parent Tywin must have been growing up in the memory that he'd declared love worthless to gold, which again tells you something about why Jaime and Tyrion are the way they are.  It's entertaining watching Cersei use him as an aspirational model as well as tell herself herself over and over how she'll be remembered as greater than him still, just as it is watching such a serious self-important character be the subject of snickering about privies as he stinks up the place and rots away on the bier.

I've commented before on how Kevan manages to be shocked just shocked about how members of the main branch of the family treat each other, yet now that he's no longer playing yes man to Tywin, we see that he's actually fairly clear-eyed on a number of fronts.  Tywin seemed to get in SOS just how bad Cersei's influence was on the children when he was seeing it day in and day out, but he'd apparently been content to leave it alone for years and years before the series started.  Kevan correctly identifies it too as well as what the solution should be and he's politically savvy enough to counsel her against her utter determination to alienate her largest and most important ally, but I'm left wondering how much he realistically expected Cersei to meekly cede power to him and do as she was told here.  He's not exactly chomping at the bit to take the job even if she does.  Love his parting shot on the way out the door that however blind Tywin either was or chose to be about the kids' paternity that not everyone else is.

Qyburn is so smooth both in the first chapter in handling Tywin's corpse and now here in not reacting to her mocking and making himself indispensible to her when she's already convinced she's seeing idiots and useless people everywhere. On the show it's fairly easy to think he ends up as hand simply by virtue of being playing by a reasonably well known British character actor and his character being one of the few court cast not to have been blown up, but you can see him astutely worming his way in here.

[Avaleigh]

10 hours ago, benteen said:

Cersei's chapters are a lot of fun and you have some great interaction here.

LISTEN to Kevan, Cersei!

If it wasn't for the fact that Cersei is so unlikeable, I would easily say that Mace asking about jobs at her father's funeral is in really bad taste.

He really did give her good advice by suggesting she appoint either Mathis or Randyll. It seems like Randyll might have been the best choice since the war isn't going to be over any time soon. 

Kevan is being pretty reasonable here but I think if he'd really wanted to have a realistic chance at being made Regent, he would have tried a little bit of false flattery. Tell Cersei that Casterly Rock needs a queen and someone like her to fill the void left by Tywin. Imply that her leaving King's Landing is only a temporary arrangement. Suggest that Jaime be the one to escort her back to the Rock. Talk about how it will be nice for her to have a break away from the shitpile that is King's Landing. (I'm thinking of her later thoughts about how she wishes that court could be moved to Casterly Rock and how she knows that would be unrealistic, so the next best thing would be to have a palace built in KL once the war is over. Clearly she'd like to get away from KL.) Once she's gone, Kevan can do what he can to put Tommen and the realm on the right path. It might not have worked but I think false flattery might have at least given him a chance at persuading her to leave.

I liked that Cersei basically asked Olenna how much longer she'd have to put up with her presence in King's Landing. Seeing Olenna reel Mace in so that he doesn't embarrass himself any further regarding the rejection of Garth was fun to watch. I have to agree that it was a little tasteless of Mace to not wait until they could be in private to have that discussion. Lol at the Tyrells referring to Gyles as the Cougher. 

I agree that it's stupid of Cersei to not suspect that Taena might be looking to spy on her for the Tyrells. Cersei is so paranoid about everybody else that it's curious to see her not be suspicious of Taena for even a moment. It's like she has a girl crush on Taena from day one. I wonder how she would have reacted to her if Taena hadn't mentioned anything about having friends across the narrow sea who would be happy to deliver Tyrion back to King's Landing. Her main focus seems to be on Taena's beauty.

Nodorothyparker, I agree with you about how smooth Qyburn is in general. He's come along way from being the healer who tagged along with the Bloody Mummers, and in such a short time too. He's on his way to becoming the favorite of the Queen Regent, he gets to do the research and experiments that he's long dreamed of, he has money to do what he likes, he's getting new clothes, he's presumably living in the castle when he used to camp out like a hedge knight, he's on his way to replacing the Grand Maester, etc. Not bad for a guy who was expelled from the Citadel. 

I laughed out loud when Cersei sees that Pycelle's eyes are closed during the service and thinks to herself that she'll have him killed if it turns out that he's sleeping. 

Cersei has this strange way of lying to herself and accepting the truth at the same time. Here she acknowledges to herself that there aren't any crowds because Tywin was never loved by the people of KL. Moments later when she sees that the gold cloaks outnumber the mourners she tells herself that more people will show up later.

It reminds me of how she can tell herself that Tywin never had sex with a woman after her mother died but is continually bothered by the fact that Shae was found in Tywin's bed. She thinks about Shae in this chapter immediately after Kevan brings Joanna up. 

The worst moment in this chapter was definitely when Cersei basically told Falyse that Lollys was somehow responsible for her gang rape. She really is the worst. I'm shocked that Falyse asked. You'd think that she'd never met Cersei before.

[John Potts]

9 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Kevan is being pretty reasonable here but I think if he'd really wanted to have a realistic chance at being made Regent, he would have tried a little bit of false flattery.

I think he's just tired. He was Tywin's right hand man and it's fair to say Kevan loved and admired him - unlike Tywin's children, Tywin's death is a straight up tragedy (he also knew him before Joanna's death, so he has more memories of a more "fun loving" Tywin (relatively speaking!). He would (and will) be prepared to serve the Realm, but maybe wants a little time to grieve in private.

And he's in one respect, actually more astute (or at least, not deluded): he sees Cersei & Jamie's relationship.

10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

He's on his way to becoming the favorite of the Queen Regent, he gets to do the research and experiments that he's long dreamed of, he has money to do what he likes, he's getting new clothes, he's presumably living in the castle when he used to camp out like a hedge knight, he's on his way to replacing the Grand Maester, etc. Not bad for a guy who was expelled from the Citadel.

Yet it never occurs to Queen Cersei that a man who's changed his allegiances three times (I think?) might not be the most loyal....

[Avaleigh]

Jaime I

Jaime is still standing vigil over Tywin's body. Balon and Loras both offer to take Jaime's place so that he can get some rest, but Jaime refuses to leave his father's side. Jaime feels guilty about Tywin's death and blames himself for releasing Tyrion from his cell. He thinks about how he got Varys to help him free Tyrion and remembers his brother's parting words to him.

"Cersei is a lying whore, she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son."

Jaime wonders where Varys is hiding and thinks that he might be on the same ship as Tyrion. He also considers that Tyrion might have killed Varys before leaving the castle and realizes that it might be years before they ever find his body.

Jaime's thoughts turn to the last time he saw Rhaegar and how he pleaded with him to be allowed to go with him to fight against Robert. Rhaegar admits to Jaime in this conversation that Aerys fears Tywin more than Robert and that having Jaime by his side makes him feel safe. He thinks about what Rhaegar said to him before he left for the Battle of the Trident. 

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Jaime talks to his father's corpse and tells him how amusing it is to remember how Aerys thought that no harm would come to him as long as he kept Jaime nearby. Jaime notices that his father's death smile has become more pronounced as if he enjoys being dead. 

Thousands of mourners have come to see Tywin's body but Jaime suspects that most of them are secretly delighted to see that Tywin is dead. When Jaime thinks about all of the mourners who have come to pay their respects, he thinks that Pycelle seems the most upset over the loss.

"I have served six kings," he told Jaime after the second service, whilst sniffing doubtfully about the corpse, "but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be."

Cersei comes to see Jaime and is disguised as a tavern wench. Jaime immediately suspects that Cersei wants something from him and asks her what it is she wants. Cersei sounds frightened and tells Jaime that Kevan has refused her offer to be Hand of the King. She also tells Jaime that Kevan knows the truth about their relationship. Jaime is surprised by this and wonders how Kevan could know. Cersei points out that Tyrion knew and suggests that Tyrion might have told multiple people including the new High Septon. 

Cersei tells Jaime that he has to be Tommen's Hand and says that she doesn't trust Mace Tyrell. She wonders if Mace could have had a hand in Tywin's death and suggests that he may have conspired with Tyrion. She says that Tyrion could be on his way to Highgarden this very moment for all they know. 

Cersei pleads with Jaime to be Hand and says that they can rule the Seven Kingdoms together like a king and queen. Jaime again refuses to be Hand and Cersei says that it isn't loving of Jaime to make her beg. She tells her brother that she needs her other half. Jaime checks to make sure that Tywin isn't rising from his bier in anger and tells Cersei that he was made for the battlefield not a council chamber. Cersei leaves angrily and tells Jaime that she was a fool to ever love him.

Tywin's body smells super awful at this point and it's making Jaime want to gag. During the wake, Margaery and her ladies are all holding roses under their noses to deal with the stench. When Cersei and Tommen kneel before Tywin so that they can pray, Tommen recoils from the state of Tywin's body. Cersei jerks his arm to keep him still but the smell is too overwhelming for Tommen so he starts to cry. When Cersei tells him to stop, Tommen turns his head and pukes. His crown falls off and rolls across the floor. Tommen then takes off running as fast as he can and Jaime asks Osmund to relieve him so that he can chase after the king. 

Jaime catches Tommen in the Hall of Lamps and Tommen apologizes for running away. He explains that the smell made him sick. Jaime leads Tommen outside so that they can talk and Tommen wants Jaime to know that it wasn't fear that made him run. He asks his uncle how he could bear the smell and Jaime says that a man can bear almost anything if he has to. He thinks about how he was forced to bear the smell when his severed hand was hanging around his neck. He also thinks of the smell he had to bear when Aerys decided to roast a man alive in his armor. Jaime tells Tommen that the world is full of horrors and that the trick to dealing with this is to "go away inside" if things get too horrifying. 

Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ."

Cersei interrupts the conversation and tells Tommen that Joffrey would never have shamed her the way that he did just now. Tommen swears that he wasn't afraid and explains that he left because of how bad Tywin's body smelled. Cersei tells Tommen that the smell was awful for her and everybody else in the room, but nobody else reacted by sobbing or vomiting. 

Jaime tells Cersei to stop and she tells him that he's supposed to be standing vigil over their father. She reminds him that he said he'd stay for seven days and seven nights.

Mace Tyrell approaches and checks to make sure that Tommen is okay. Cersei claims that Tommen was overwhelmed with grief and Mace asks if there is anything he can do. Jaime asks Mace to do Cersei the honor of having supper with her. Cersei is furious with Jaime for saying this but knows that she has to refrain from saying what she's really thinking. 

Once Jaime and Cersei are alone, she asks him why he wants her to have supper with Mace. Jaime advises Cersei to ask Mace to capture Storm's End for Tommen. Cersei thinks this is a good idea but points out that Mace won't leave until Tommen and Margaery are married. Jaime tells Cersei to let Tommen and Margaery wed and says that it'll be years before the marriage is consummated. Until it is consummated, the marriage can always be put aside if they need it to be. 

Cersei smiles and acknowledges that even sieges have their dangers. Jaime concedes that Mace could end up losing his life particularly if he becomes impatient and chooses to storm the gate. 

Cersei gave him a lingering look. "You know," she said, "for a moment you sounded quite like Father."

[John Potts]

"Lancel, Osmund Kettleback and Moon Boy too, for all I know..." a phrase that readers will become depressingly familiar with over the course of this book.

But much (and more!) repetition aside, I do like this chapter. Interesting insight into Aerys & Rhaegar Targaryen, with Rhaegar possibly plotting to depose his father and Aerys (rightly!) worrying about Tywin's loyalty. And we have the parallel between Cersei's and Aerys' paranoia, that in seeing enemies everywhere, managing to feed the flames of rebellion that drives allies into rebellion.

Jamie shows that, freed of his father's presence, he IS more that just a sword hand, seeing that maybe Tommen could do with a little support and not just criticism (and just what DID Joffrey do to him? I'm sure I don't want to know) while his handling of the Tyrells is much more deft than Cersei's flat out opposition to them. Tyrion may be the brainy one among Tywin's children, but Jamie's no slouch either (and Cersei is cunning, at least when she doesn't allow her paranoia to completely override her reason).

[benteen]

I enjoyed this chapter a great deal too.  It's got some great interaction here and while it's a job that Jaime doesn't want, he proves he can be a very effective Hand of the King here.  His suggestion to send Mace back to Storm's End is a perfect one to get him out of King's Landing.

Poor Tommen having to deal with Cersei as a mother.  Cersei thinks Joffrey was a great king so you know this is NOT the person you can mothering or counseling you.

The stink from Tywin's body strengthens the theory that Oberyn poisoned him before his death.  If that was the case, it also shows that despite his overconfidence he showed in the duel, Oberyn did at least seriously consider the fact that he wasn't going to live through his encounter with the Mountain.

Edited April 17, 2018 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

So how hysterically funny is it that this deep in the series after Stannis sent his infamous letter 'round the Seven Kingdoms and they've each been confronted by at least one person who already knew that Jaime and Cersei are just stunned, stunned I tell you that Kevan knows about the twincest and resulting paternity issue?  We know that all the members of this family suffer from varying degrees of delusions about how much outsiders know about them or outright hate them, but how is that even possible?  It also makes me wonder again just how deep it really ran with Tywin that he apparently couldn't see it right under his nose.

I like this chapter a lot too with all the backstory Jaime's giving us.  We learn that Rhaegar was possibly on the verge of doing something about his mad father, who for all of his insanity was at least lucid enough to know that trusting in Tywin was every bit as dangerous as the ongoing rebellion.  The line that "Jaime Lannister had never lacked for rage" is incredibly telling in his musings about what kind of mark growing up with Tywin must have left and about the utter mess his sudden death had left behind, as well as his feelings of his own culpability in it.  For all of this first round of fixating on "Lancel, Osmund Kettleback and Moon Boy too, for all I know..." he's clear-eyed enough to notice how paranoid and spectacularly unhelpful Cersei's being on every front, and at least this time he has enough presence of mind to realize that sept sex part II in front of a different family corpse is really really not a good idea.  There's such a melancholy note throughout that has less to do with any real or feigned grief over the body rotting on the bier and more about how he's essentially pissed away his own life and the son he completely disassociated himself from as a result of the choices he made in pissing that life away.

He may claim he can't do anything but be a warrior, but his preventing Cersei from doing her damnedest to blow up the Tyrell alliance shows he does have the ability to be something else if he'll just make the effort.

[John Potts]

33 minutes ago, benteen said:

The stink from Tywin's body strengthens the theory that Oberyn poisoned him before his death

I still don't buy it. If he had poisoned Tywin anyway, why risk fighting the Mountain? I mean, he wants the Mountain dead,  but if he could poison Tywin, why not poison the (presumably easier) target of the Mountain, too? For my money, the fact that Tywin had a perforated gut and was rotting for hours before his body was found (inspired by Stalin's death, perhaps?) is adequate to explain the smell.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems to me looking for conspiracies when the simpler explanation is perfectly adequate.

[nodorothyparker]

I've never been terribly convinced of the Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory either.  Not saying it's impossible, but unless it was an extra super duper slow acting poison it would seem to cancel out Oberyn's mad need to have Twyin publicly named as Ellaria's killer and see any kind of officially acknowledged justice for it.  I don't know what preservation method the Silent Sisters are using and I'm perfectly fine with not knowing, but having a body lie in faux medieval state for a solid week in very damp rainy weather probably didn't do it any good.  The descriptions make me think of the horrible stories about Henry VIII's corpse leaking and rotting all over the place as we know George loves to borrow from those kinds of stories. 

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I've never been terribly convinced of the Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory either.  Not saying it's impossible, but unless it was an extra super duper slow acting poison it would seem to cancel out Oberyn's mad need to have Twyin publicly named as Ellaria's killer and see any kind of officially acknowledged justice for it.  I don't know what preservation method the Silent Sisters are using and I'm perfectly fine with not knowing, but having a body lie in faux medieval state for a solid week in very damp rainy weather probably didn't do it any good.  The descriptions make me think of the horrible stories about Henry VIII's corpse leaking and rotting all over the place as we know George loves to borrow from those kinds of stories. 

Yeah, I think the main problem with this theory is it goes against Doran's and Oberyn's stated scheme. Isn't one of the points of Doran's reveal that he and Obie were on the same page all along? Oberyn didn't just want Tywin dead (I'm sure a secret poisoning could have been attempted years ago if that's all they wanted), he wanted him publicly exposed. Then the next phase was meant to get rid of the Lannister-Baratheon regime entirely. The best revenge would call for Tywin to survive to the Targ/Martell restoration attempt, watch his life's work get undone, lose power, then get killed. If the plan was for Gregor and Tywin to die around the same time, (meaning the Martells actually accomplished something) then I'd think Doran would have mentioned that when he explained his grand plans to Arianne and the Sand Snakes. And shouldn't Qyburn have noticed poison in Tywin's blood like he did in Gregor's?

It's not clear to me if the seven day wake is a routine deal or Lannister excessiveness. It certainly feels a bit much, especially Jaime's standing vigil. Bodies rot, and a fatal bowel wound couldn't help. Whatever the cause of the stink or historical inspiration, I think the narrative importance is symbolic. The great Tywin is being mourned and his grandson, whose crown Tywin murdered and warred to support, and who happens to be the most innocent Lannister there, is physically repulsed by the rotting corpse of this evil old man, losing his crown in his haste to get away. No thanks, grandpa. crown isn't worth the smell straight from hell. That is Tywin's true legacy, a golden facade concealing a rotting House, with everyone else trying to shield their noses in disgust. Tywin doesn't shit gold, but entire life philosophy is full of shit.

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

So how hysterically funny is it that this deep in the series after Stannis sent his infamous letter 'round the Seven Kingdoms and they've each been confronted by at least one person who already knew that Jaime and Cersei are just stunned, stunned I tell you that Kevan knows about the twincest and resulting paternity issue?  We know that all the members of this family suffer from varying degrees of delusions about how much outsiders know about them or outright hate them, but how is that even possible?  It also makes me wonder again just how deep it really ran with Tywin that he apparently couldn't see it right under his nose.

.... For all of this first round of fixating on "Lancel, Osmund Kettleback and Moon Boy too, for all I know..." he's clear-eyed enough to notice how paranoid and spectacularly unhelpful Cersei's being on every front, and at least this time he has enough presence of mind to realize that sept sex part II in front of a different family corpse is really really not a good idea. 

Yeah, these two were far from stealthy, yet other people must have needed Tyrion to clue them in, even after Stan's letter. Sure, guys.

No septsex rd. 2 is a step forward, yet also funny that Jaime is worried about dead Tywin's judgment but not long ago wanted Cersei to tell the living Tywin they should be together. He's still mad at her about not marrying him. Buddy, she could never be "your queen" even if you weren't siblings, because you're not royalty. As much as I think Cersei's treatment of him as a sperm-donor/father-when-she-says-so is selfish, I also think his attitude toward revealing the paternity is kinda selfish. He interrupts her actually valid point about danger to their kids to say she made them Robert's, not his. Again, she was selfish and unfair to Jaime, but I'd say it's more Tywin/Robert/Jon Arryn that made them Baratheons by arranging her marriage. It's not like she was already pregnant by Jaime and then got married, and even if she didn't want to be queen she wasn't really free to marry anyone else, much less her own brother.

I was amused by Jaime calling Pycelle's former beard magnificent and comparing its loss to his behanding. Made me think of Cersei's upcoming traumatic haircut/shaving.

13 hours ago, John Potts said:

maybe Tommen could do with a little support and not just criticism (and just what DID Joffrey do to him? I'm sure I don't want to know) 

I've seen that line questioned a lot and I just wanna say there was nothing living Joff did that suggest he sexually abusing his brother like Euron. Jaime's advice which Tommen is relating to doesn't come from Jaime being sexually abused. Jaime learned to cope this way watching the Mad King burn men alive and Joff was also compared to Aerys. He never got to roast anyone with wildfire as execution but we're told he was fond of making men fight to the death on whims or ripping out tongues, which could be traumatic for a little kid if Tommen was in court. Or he could be referring to physical abuse, if Joff had ways of hurting him such that he went away inside to escape the pain.

On 4/6/2018 at 8:49 PM, Avaleigh said:

The worst moment in this chapter was definitely when Cersei basically told Falyse that Lollys was somehow responsible for her gang rape. She really is the worst. I'm shocked that Falyse asked. You'd think that she'd never met Cersei before.

I've talked before about how gross I find the entire handling of Lollys, but it's at least better her rape-baby wasn't named for a man responsible for so many rapes, from Tysha's own gang rape to everything Gregor and his goons did on Tywin's orders. The man was a mass-rapist-by-proxy, which isn't mentioned enough along all his other crimes.

On 4/6/2018 at 12:20 PM, nodorothyparker said:

We get more glimpses of what a nightmare of a parent Tywin must have been growing up in the memory that he'd declared love worthless to gold, which again tells you something about why Jaime and Tyrion are the way they are.  It's entertaining watching Cersei use him as an aspirational model as well as tell herself herself over and over how she'll be remembered as greater than him still, just as it is watching such a serious self-important character be the subject of snickering about privies as he stinks up the place and rots away on the bier.

One of my favorite lines I forgot to mention in Cersei I was her thought that there should be other deaths in the castle because Tywin needed servants to attend him in hell. A great and powerful man, now burning in hell. (Or ruling over hell?) He deserves rainbows at his funeral, but his eternal legacy is to be known only as Cersei's father. Cersei both worshiped and resented her father. What stood out to me was "His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. When he looked at you, you knew.", the use of you would seem to include the thinker herself, a rare sign of insecurity and vulnerability from Cersei. Out of context, I'd expect that quote to come from a Tyrion chapter. No wonder none of his kids love him (or are surprised that Genna and Kevan do). His lesson about love, when Jaime was no older than Tommen, would have been not long after Joanna died. Grief is worthless, kids, but we can buy valuable stuff instead!

[Avaleigh]

Regarding Tommen going away inside because of Joffrey, my guess is that this was maybe about animal torture. We know Tommen loves his kittens and we know the story about the pregnant cat. Maybe there were other incidents that Robert and Cersei didn't know about.

I'm actually fond of the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin with widow's blood (the poison that shuts down the bowels) but assumed it wasn't a thing because the show didn't include it.

It isn't hard for me to imagine that Oberyn would go against Doran here. He seemed pretty ready to head back to Sunspear during his conversation with Tyrion. Becoming Tyrion's champion wasn't apart of the plan so once he decided to defend Tyrion, I think it's possible that his plans changed and he no longer wanted to do it Doran's way. I think if he'd won against Gregor that the plot to crown Myrcella would have become more of a thing and that he wouldn't have stayed on the small council.

I too fail to understand how Jaime can be so shocked that Kevan knows about them. The cat has been out of the bag since the second book and people like Jon Arryn were suspicious before that.

It's unclear what Jaime thinks would be realistic for Cersei to do regarding their relationship. On the one hand he seems newly devoted to being a member of the Kingsguard so obviously he can't marry anyone let alone his twin. Even if he does quit the Kingsguard where does he imagine they'll have this fantasy marriage? Who would marry them? Where would they live? What danger does this put Tommen and Myrcella in? He isn't thinking about this from a practical standpoint at all. He's just hurt that she isn't willing to lose everything in order to make their relationship official. He'd rather be honest about it and get married even though that likely means losing everything as opposed to being king and queen in all but name by accepting the offer of being made Hand. 

Obviously I can understand why everyone else who knows Cersei would prefer to not serve as her son's Hand but for the guy who wants to be closer to her, states in this chapter that he still loves and wants to protect her (and their son), it seems like he'd seize the opportunity to take control of the situation and the most practical way to do that would be to assert his power as the King's Hand. It's possible that he could have been more helpful to Tommen and House Lannister if he had. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Brienne II

Brienne is in Duskendale looking for Sansa. She goes to an inn to have her shield repainted and decides to stay the night. She bathes in her room and remembers the time she and Jaime were in the bathhouse at Harrenhal together. She blushes as she remembers seeing Jaime naked and thinks he looked "like half a corpse and half a god" that day. She tries to force herself to picture Renly's face. 

Brienne tries to see the Lord of Duskendale but is told that Lord Rykker has gone to Maidenpool with Randyll Tarly. Brienne is escorted to see Ser Rufus Leek who has been left behind to serve as castellan. Leek tells her that the goldcloaks and others have already come seeking Dontos and have gone away empty handed. 

Leek tells Brienne about the Defiance of Duskendale where King Aerys was captured and held at Duskendale for half a year. Tywin was the Hand of the King when this happened and while he had the men to storm the castle, Lord Denys sent word that Aerys would be killed at the first sign of assault. Aerys was ultimately rescued by Ser Barristan.

After Aerys was rescued, Lord Denys immmediately surrendered and begged his king for mercy. Aerys decided to have Lord Denys beheaded as well as Denys's siblings, uncles, cousins, and other Darklyns. The Myrish wife of Denys was burned alive for her part in persuading her husband to take Aerys hostage. 

House Darklyn was extinguished along with House Hollard. The only exception was Ser Dontos who was a young boy at the time. Aerys wanted to have the boy killed even though he had no part in what took place at Duskendale, but Barristan persuaded Aerys to let Dontos live. Aerys felt that he could not refuse Barristan's request because Barristan had just saved his life. Dontos was taken to King's Landing to become a squire and never returned to Duskendale again. 

Leek says there's no reason that Sansa and Dontos would have gone to Duskendale and advises Brienne to look elsewhere. Brienne understands that she isn't going to find Sansa in Duskendale. 

Brienne thinks about which relative Sansa would be most likely to seek out and thinks that it might have been easiest for Sansa to seek out her aunt in The Eyrie. 

As Brienne goes to return to the inn she runs into a boy who looks vaguely familiar. She asks him if she knows him but he claims they don't know each other. The boy runs away before Brienne can question him further. 

Back at the inn Brienne has dinner and talks with a dwarf who tells her that he saw a fool back in Maidenpool who was seeking passage for three. Brienne wonders if it was Dontos seeking passage for himself, Tyrion and Sansa.

The common room is buzzing with talk of the death of Tywin Lannister. People have heard that Tywin was murdered by Tyrion and the discussion soon turns to who will rule the kingdoms until Tommen comes of age. 

Brienne dreams that she's back in Renly's tent the night he died.

That night she dreamed herself in Renly's tent again. All the candles were guttering out, and the cold was thick around her. Something was moving through green darkness, something foul and horrible was hurtling toward her king. She wanted to protect him, but her limbs felt stiff and frozen, and it took more strength than she had just to lift her hand. And when the shadow sword sliced through the green steel gorget and the blood began to flow, she saw that the dying king was not Renly after all but Jaime Lannister, and she had failed him.

Brienne leaves Duskendale the next morning. She passes tombs and graves and thinks about the day Catelyn learned of the deaths of her two youngest sons. Brienne swears to herself that she'll find Sansa and will never stop looking no matter how long it takes. 

Brienne is on the road where she and Jaime were captured by the Bloody Mummers. She hears someone following her and wonders if it's Ser Shadrich. She hides and waits for the rider to pass only to realize that the person following her is the same boy she ran into at Duskendale. She runs after him and makes his horse rear so that he falls to the ground. She demands to know who he is and he studders for awhile before managing to tell her that his name is Podrick Payne.

Brienne wants to know why Podrick is following her and asks him if he's working for Varys or Cersei. Pod explains that he's the squire of the former Hand of the King, Tyrion Lannister. When Brienne asks him what he wants, Pod says that he wants to find Sansa because she's Tyrion's wife. 

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm actually fond of the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin with widow's blood (the poison that shuts down the bowels) but assumed it wasn't a thing because the show didn't include it.

It isn't hard for me to imagine that Oberyn would go against Doran here. He seemed pretty ready to head back to Sunspear during his conversation with Tyrion. Becoming Tyrion's champion wasn't apart of the plan so once he decided to defend Tyrion, I think it's possible that his plans changed and he no longer wanted to do it Doran's way. I think if he'd won against Gregor that the plot to crown Myrcella would have become more of a thing and that he wouldn't have stayed on the small council.

 

I can see that when you put it that way, but secret poisoning still feels like the opposite approach of his public killing of Gregor/call-out of Tywin. If Oberyn avenged his dead kin by killing Tywin, I think he'd want everyone to know it. I think he'd want Tywin to suffer through a Myrcella v. Tommen civil war, and assumed he'd be alive for it too. Why take your sweet-ass time waiting for revenge if it could be done that simply?

Quote

 

It's unclear what Jaime thinks would be realistic for Cersei to do regarding their relationship. On the one hand he seems newly devoted to being a member of the Kingsguard so obviously he can't marry anyone let alone his twin. Even if he does quit the Kingsguard where does he imagine they'll have this fantasy marriage? Who would marry them? Where would they live? What danger does this put Tommen and Myrcella in? He isn't thinking about this from a practical standpoint at all. He's just hurt that she isn't willing to lose everything in order to make their relationship official. He'd rather be honest about it and get married even though that likely means losing everything as opposed to being king and queen in all but name by accepting the offer of being made Hand. 

Obviously I can understand why everyone else who knows Cersei would prefer to not serve as her son's Hand but for the guy who wants to be closer to her, states in this chapter that he still loves and wants to protect her (and their son), it seems like he'd seize the opportunity to take control of the situation and the most practical way to do that would be to assert his power as the King's Hand. It's possible that he could have been more helpful to Tommen and House Lannister if he had. 

 

Yeah, he's not thinking it through at all, it's an irrational emotional reaction to the dissatisfying position he put himself in in this relationship.

Jaime is still attracted to and cares about Cersei, but I don't think he really wants to be close to her all the time anymore. (By this point, I think he wants to be acknowledged as father of Cersei's kids more than wanting Cersei as his wife.) I take his unprompted advice at the end as not just a sign that he's capable of being Tywin's heir when he wants to be, but that he's no longer running from responsibility as he was when we met him. The problem is he understands Cersei has no intention of them ruling together any more than she would with Kevan. She told him when she asked the first time that she would do the ruling. For Cersei, he'd just be LC of the Kingsguard with an extra title. Jaime has had enough trouble with Cersei since his return without adding a Hand/Queen power struggle like Tyrion went through. Couples have to be at least somewhat stable to work together.

ETA: Onto Brienne II, which really should have been Brienne I. We didn't need a whole chapter of her on the way to Duskendale followed by a whole chapter in Duskendale. The only half-way plot-relevant part was Ser Shadrich's intro, which could easily have fit into this chapter.

At least all the background on the Defiance of Duskendale is pretty interesting. Aerys and Tywin shared a taste for extinguishing Houses, but the punishment of the Myrish Lady Darklyn is particularly hideous. The book-long theme of grief and the aftermath of war is all over this chapter from the equipment of dead soldiers being re-sold, to the inn chattering about Tywin's murder and filling with Sparrow refugees, to the mass grave of northerners outside town, to Brienne finding the ruins of House Hollard's former castle at the end.

Quote

Brienne thinks about which relative Sansa would be most likely to seek out and thinks that it might have been easiest for Sansa to seek out her aunt in The Eyrie. 

This reminds me of Cersei thinking the Tyrells may have been involved in Joffrey's murder. So close, yet no follow through.

This chapter is the first we hear of Septa Roelle who makes Mordane look good in comparison, and Ser Goodwin, Bri's Westerosi counterpart to Syrio Forel.

Poor dwarf monk, homeless after two attacks, only to end up a victim of Cersei's dwarf slaughter. Poor Brienne, on a mission she's as unsuited for as Ned was for solving Jon Arryn's murder, and beating herself up about perceived failures of people she could never have saved, so determined to find Sansa she's willing to "give up my life if need be, give up my honor, give up all my dreams". And poor stuttering Pod, trying to find his lord and lady, because Tyrion, who wasn't even that nice to him in the books, was all he had.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

Reading this again, I actually found I liked it better this time (OTOH, I remember thinking the upcoming Kingsmoot was more interesting the first time, so it goes both ways). Brienne is really amazingly dedicated to her task given the almost complete lack of information she has, and yet she somehow manages to actually pick up useful information, where she lands on Sansa's trail. I suppose it's understandable that she doesn't blab about who she's tracking (Brienne would assume - correctly, as it turns out - that she would be under a false name), but it does make her look a bit foolish when asked for her "sister's" name that she goes "Errr... I don't know?"

Still, not a great deal happening - I'd say you could combine the first two Brienne Chapters with the next one (where we meet Westeros Dad of the Year contender and all round great guy, Randyll Tarly) with little loss.

At least she's picked up her travel buddy, Podrick (another loyal guy - they're well matched)!

[nodorothyparker]

On 4/18/2018 at 2:07 AM, Lady S. said:

also funny that Jaime is worried about dead Tywin's judgment but not long ago wanted Cersei to tell the living Tywin they should be together. He's still mad at her about not marrying him. Buddy, she could never be "your queen" even if you weren't siblings, because you're not royalty. As much as I think Cersei's treatment of him as a sperm-donor/father-when-she-says-so is selfish, I also think his attitude toward revealing the paternity is kinda selfish. He interrupts her actually valid point about danger to their kids to say she made them Robert's, not his. Again, she was selfish and unfair to Jaime, but I'd say it's more Tywin/Robert/Jon Arryn that made them Baratheons by arranging her marriage. It's not like she was already pregnant by Jaime and then got married, and even if she didn't want to be queen she wasn't really free to marry anyone else, much less her own brother.

Yep.  There's plenty of carryover here from the last two books where Jaime was declaring that he was done with all the lying about the whole mess and so his mind impulsively races ahead to thinking that the obvious answer is to openly marry Cersei, name the kids for what they are, and maybe even marry them to each other like the Targaryens used to if they're going to style themselves after the Targs anyway.  I want to say there's a line in SOS where he even comments that whatever claim they've been pretending to have doesn't matter because it's armies or swords that win and hold thrones and that's what will hold it for them now.   There is a fair argument to be made that Cersei's treated him pretty badly jerking his chain from the time she convinced him to throw away his birthright for the Kingsguard and then serve as stud all those years, and you can extend that argument to include his own culpability in never thinking the longterm of any of that through to a time when he would have nothing to show for it.  When he starts down this road he's still not thinking through any of the consequences of trying to undo all that by coming clean about it.  It's as if he truly believes the rest of country is just going to shrug at the news that they got caught up in a ruinous war and thousands died over a fictitious claim "but you feel better about being all honest about it now so we're all good." 

 

On 4/18/2018 at 9:21 PM, Lady S. said:

it's an irrational emotional reaction to the dissatisfying position he put himself in in this relationship.

Jaime is still attracted to and cares about Cersei, but I don't think he really wants to be close to her all the time anymore. (By this point, I think he wants to be acknowledged as father of Cersei's kids more than wanting Cersei as his wife.) I take his unprompted advice at the end as not just a sign that he's capable of being Tywin's heir when he wants to be, but that he's no longer running from responsibility as he was when we met him. The problem is he understands Cersei has no intention of them ruling together any more than she would with Kevan. She told him when she asked the first time that she would do the ruling. For Cersei, he'd just be LC of the Kingsguard with an extra title. Jaime has had enough trouble with Cersei since his return without adding a Hand/Queen power struggle like Tyrion went through. Couples have to be at least somewhat stable to work together.

This is mostly my read too.  By the time we're on this round of the argument he's already chewing on "and Moonboy too, for all I know."  He's realized how completely dissatisfied with the relationship he is and his role in it.  There's an element of bitterness and humiliation creeping through this and all subsequent chapters that this is what he got for so many years of faithfulness to her.  And what she's offering now is still not a equal relationship but yet something else he can do for her so she can continue playing queen.  It's a pretty well done portrait of them being completely at cross purposes and of course the minute he doesn't do what she wants, she's quick to belittle him.

As far as Brienne's chapter goes, I feel for her a lot taking the weight of all of this on her shoulders and feeling so deeply about everyone else when they're not the ones traipsing alone through a wrecked countryside on an ultimately futile quest.  It's almost a palate cleanser at this point in the series to read the POV of someone who doesn't have any ulterior motives and isn't frantically rearranging the deck chairs as the water rises, but she's still so painfully out of her depth.

[Avaleigh]

Sansa I

Sansa remembers a singer who stayed with her family at Winterfell when she was a little girl. The singer left after staying for half a year and Sansa thinks about how she cried and begged her father not to allow the old man to leave. She remembers how she prayed to the old gods and the new for another singer to come (preferably one who was young and handsome) but no singers came to Winterfell for over a year.

At the Eyrie, Marillion is in one of the sky cells and his songs can be heard throughout the castle. Sansa prays for silence but finds that she hears Marillion's voice no matter where she goes. Whether she's sleeping, bathing, or eating she hears his music. She notes that his voice sounds better than it ever did before his imprisonment and wonders why the gods would would give a beautiful voice to such a wicked man. 

She remembers how Marillion tried to rape her at the Fingers and was only stopped by Ser Lothor. She also thinks about how Marillion played at Lysa's command in order to drown out Sansa's cries the day Lysa tried to kill her. 

Sansa asks Littlefinger to make Marillion stop singing, but Littlefinger says that it's better to have Marillion singing than crying. When Sansa points out that Marillion's singing keeps Robert awake at night, Littlefinger says that it can't be helped because Robert is upset over his mother's death. 

Lord Nestor Royce is making the ascent to the Eyrie and Littlefinger confirms that Nestor will be speaking with Marillion about what happened with Lysa. Sansa is horrified but Littlefinger seems confident in the agreement he's made with Marillion. He says that if Marillion ends up backing out on their deal and tells Nestor what really happened that he and Sansa can simply say that Marillion is lying. 

Sansa is uncomfortable when Littlefinger refers to her as being his daughter but then feels grateful to him for saving her from Lysa's wrath. She tries to get him to allow her to skip out on meeting with Nestor but Littlefinger insists that Royce will want to hear her account of Lysa's death. Littlefinger tells her that lying to Nestor won't be any different than the lies she told Robert. He reminds her that if she doesn't lie that they'll both end up leaving the Eyrie through the Moon Door. 

Sansa is still troubled by the things Lysa said before Littlefinger pushed her out of the Moon Door. She sometimes thinks that Littlefinger is two people. Sometimes he's Petyr, a man who is warm and funny and serves as her protector. Other times he's Littlefinger, the guy from King's Landing who would whisper in Cersei's ear and watch when Joffrey ordered her to be beaten. 

When Sansa thinks about fleeing from Littlefinger she doesn't think there's anywhere for her to go. She thinks that all of her family members are either dead, captive, or besieged. She thinks that Petyr is her only true friend. 

Lord Nestor has arrived at the Eyrie and Sansa gets Robert cleaned up so that he meet with him. Robert complains that someone locked his door last night and Sansa thinks about how she was the one who ordered Ser Lothor to lock Robert's door. Robert has taken to sleeping in Sansa's bed lately and Sansa doesn't like this because he wets the bed and is always trying to suck on her breasts. 

Robert doesn't want to see Lord Nestor and remembers his mother saying that he was a dreadful man. Sansa comforts Robert about missing Lysa.

They head to the High Hall and once they're inside, Robert greets Nestor and tells him all about how Marillion murdered his mother. When asked if he witnessed Marillion pushing Lysa out of the Moon Door, Robert says that Alayne and Littlefinger were witnesses to Lysa's death. Sansa is too nervous at first to speak until Littlefinger prods her. She tears up and tells Nestor and his men about how she was with Lysa when Marillion pushed her. Robert starts to cry as he listens to Sansa talk about Lysa's death. He shrieks about how he wants Marillion to fly and ends up having a shaking fit. Robert shakes and kicks and eventually wets himself as everyone watches. When the shaking spell is over, Littlefinger gives orders for Robert to be taken back to his room so that he can be bled. 

The Royces and their men talk about how they always knew Marillion was no good, and Littlefinger claims that Marillion killed Lysa because she'd finally agreed to send him away. Littlefinger tells the group that he blames himself for Lysa's death and says that he should have been with her instead of leaving her alone with the singer. 

Marillion is brought to the High Hall and confesses that he murdered Lysa in a jealous rage. He's sent back to his sky cell after his confession and once Marillion is gone, Littlefinger asks to speak with Nestor in private in the solar. Littlefinger asks Alayne to come to the solar so that she can pour for them.

Lord Nestor tell Littlefinger that his cousin Bronze Yohn wants to come to the Eyrie to question Marillion himself. Bronze Yohn will be bringing others with him including Lyn Corbray, Lady Waynwood, Lord Belmore, and Lord Hunter. Nestor says that Bronze Yohn wants to have Littlefinger removed as Lord Protector of the Vale. 

Littlefinger tells Nestor that Lysa thought of him as her rock and wanted Nestor and his descendants to have the Gates of the Moon. Littlefinger signs a document as Lord Protector that gives House Royce the Gates of the Moon and Nestor decides that he's earned this honor for all the work he did ruling the Vale while Jon Arryn served in King's Landing as Hand of the King. 

Littlefinger and Nestor toast to House Royce being the Keepers of the Gates of the Moon. Once Nestor leaves and Sansa and Littlefinger are alone together, Littlefinger brags about how much he accomplished with a few lies and a little Arbor gold. 

Sansa understands that Littlefinger gave Lord Nestor the Gates of the Moon to ensure his support. Littlefinger explains how it helps that Nestor is from the lesser branch of House Royce and has always wanted to find a way to get more for his son. 

Sansa also understands that Littlefinger signed the document instead of making Robert sign it because Nestor's claim will be called into question if Littlefinger is removed or killed. 

When Littlefinger refers to Sansa being his daughter, Sansa reminds him that she isn't really his daughter. Littlefinger tells her to get into the habit of thinking of herself as his daughter even when they are alone so that it'll be less likely for her to slip up or for them to be overheard in the wrong moment. He asks her if she wants to have any more blood on her hands. 

"I am tempted to say this is no game we play, daughter, but of course it is. The game of thrones."

Sansa thinks about how she never asked to play the game of thrones and thinks about how dangerous the game is. She thinks about how she'll be dead if she makes a single slip. 

Sansa points out that Oswell Kettleblack knows who she really is and Littlefinger confirms that Lothor Brune knows her identity as well. Littlefinger explains why he believes that both men will likely keep quiet but stresses the importance to not trust anyone.

Littlefinger tells Sansa that she must be Alayne all the time. He asks her if she can be Alayne in her heart. Sansa responds that she is Alayne and asks Littlefinger who else she would be. 

Lord Littlefinger kissed her cheek. "With my wits and Cat's beauty, the world will be yours, sweetling. Now off to bed."

When Sansa goes to bed, she thinks that Marillion will refrain from singing now that Lord Nestor and his men are in the castle. Later that night, Robert crawls into her bed. Sansa puts her arm around him and tells him to go to sleep.

Robert asks Alayne if she's his mother now and she replies that she is. She tells herself that if a lie is kindly meant that there isn't any harm in it. 

[John Potts]

Ah, once again we get "Be careful what you wish for" as Sansa yeaned for another singer - and now wishes he would just shut up (not sure how the castle acoustics work if he can be heard throughout - how small is the Eyrie?). Though we do get to see that Sansa is at last learning, seeing through Littlefinger's lies. But it also shows how LF works - sure, she knows (some of) his secrets, but she's tied to him, because her life would be on the line if it came out.

Slick bit of bribery on Lord Nestor - the equivalent of signing a post dated cheque. And of course, because he wants to believe Lysa thought of him as "her rock", he believes it when LF says so. OK, she did, but most people want to think the flattering version of events rather than the truth.

Anyone get the impression that GRRM doesn't like the Arryns? Robin is truly pathetic, like his mother. Could he have not given them at even one positive trait?

7 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Robert asks Alayne if she's his mother now and she replies that she is. She tells herself that if a lie is kindly meant that there isn't any harm in it.

...and just when you think Sansa is getting wiser, she says something stupid like that. OK, she may feel she has no choice but to keep Robert pliable, but you told Cersei what she wanted to hear and see how that worked out!

[YaddaYadda]

I have to defend the Prologue of this book. It is choke full of information and important connections, especially when we know that AFFC and ADWD had to be split and so the Prologue of this book and the epilogue of ADWD work really well together and I really recommend reading the two together.

Pate is boring AF, but the information he gives is really interesting.

Quote

Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. Perhaps that was why Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade, preferring to rule his city from the clouds. 

Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top of the High Tower --> If the Leyton Hightower has a glass candle, then he would be able to do exactly that. First reference to glass candles that we get is in CoK 63, Dany V. They are rich, they are into sorcery, so them having a glass candle is not a stretch.

Leyton Hightower has been up in his tower more than a decade --> Jorah says that Leyton Hightower was at the Tourney at Lannisport to celebrate the victory against Balon Greyjoy. That's when Jorah won his tourney and married Lynesse Hightower. The Greyjoy Rebellion happened 10 years before. 

The long summer lasted 10 years, 2 months and 16 days. Leyton Hightower has basically been up in his tower for the entire summer.

Sam is connected to Leyton Hightower by marriage and Leyton is the Tyrell children's grandfather (bookish Willas, Garlan, Margaery and Loras who is going to end up at the Targaryens ancient seat later in the story)

.

. 

Leo Tyrell is a jerk. He's rich and good looking and very well connected and it's his connections that tell the story because Lazy Leo is sharing a boatload of correct information with the people he is chatting with. He is doing it in a very condescending way, but the information he is in possession of is sound. Who gave him the information? Did he get it from Marwyn? Did he get it from the docks because ships bring back a lot of information from Essos, or did he get it from his father?

Leo's father is the commander of Oldtown's City Watch, and Moryn Tyrell is Mace's cousin. So if Leo has all this juicy information, it means that Mace Tyrell is in possession of the same information, and sooner than they do at King's Landing in the later chapter. Cersei doesn't even want to listen to the information actually. And this makes Mace's behavior extra in the Epilogue of ADWD. The information Kevan Lannister shares with his small council about Dany and the dragons would be nothing new to Mace. 

Sarella/Alleras, her connections are going to be important as well. But we can't really go into those just yet.

 

I wish the AFFC and ADWD had not been broken up like that. I have to say that AFFC was a slog when I read it the first time. I only really enjoyed the Jaime and Cersei chapters, but upon rereads (several of them) I really learned to appreciate this vast network of connections that exist between all these characters and how the information is disseminated and how big a role sailors play in that.

[Lady S.]

On 5/3/2018 at 4:59 AM, John Potts said:

(not sure how the castle acoustics work if he can be heard throughout - how small is the Eyrie?).

I wondered that too, but I think we are told somewhere, in the main series or the World Book, that the Eyrie is the smallest of the major castles. Building a full-size castle would probably be difficult at such a great height and the Arryns only live there part-time anyway. It sounds like they focused on the beauty of the castle more than its size and they didn't really need a fortress when the mountain is what makes it so hard to assault.

Lies are a big theme in Sansa's arc, especially in these chapters with Baelish. She had to rely on lies in King's Landing and the stakes in lying to Joff were pretty high, but it's lying at Littlefinger's behest to cover up his crime that has her so uncomfortable. She doesn't want to play the game of thrones his way, senses on some level that what he's doing is wrong and his murder/frame-job is not about selflessly protecting her, and hasn't forgotten what Lysa revealed in her last moments. But because she feels trapped with him she uses some sweet lies kindly meant for herself that his bad side is just a mask he has to wear sometimes, not really him, and that she should be thankful to him as the only protector she has left. This is different from her earlier lies to herself in book 1 to support her naive worldview though, because coping mechanisms like that are unavoidable for a child stuck in a traumatic situation. At the same time we see her not just lying to Robert about locking her door and Petyr loving Lysa, but to Baelish as well when he asks her to be his daughter at the end, reminding herself of his lies and arbor gold lesson to tell him what she knows he wants to hear.

I'd like to note that not only does Sansa remember Tyrion being the only one to stop Joffrey hurting her, she thinks of him as someone she can't get help from now because he was condemned. Everyone else in that paragraph is a blood relative but her unwanted husband is included too as an alternative to Littlefinger. She always knew he was better than the other Lannister in power, but he was still a Lannister and she justifiably really didn't want to marry him, yet even so there's the implication that she'd find him more trustworthy than Littlefinger. That says a lot about her true feelings about both men imo.

Littlefinger is such a shit for the blood on your hands line when he's the one who keeps choosing to spill the blood.

The attempted breastfeeding with Sansa is gross, but I just feel bad for Sweetrobin. With a mom like Lysa he never had a chance. He's a sickly kid who just lost his only parent and whose stepfather will soon be plotting his death too. And he's not a sadist like Joffers. Both times he screamed for the moon door involved men he'd been told had murdered one of his parents. Then again I also feel bad for Marillion in this chapter. Not for being condemned for a crime he didn't commit, because he is an attempted rapist who tried to help Lysa murder Sansa, but I don't think he deserved to be tortured before death with finger amputations and eye-gouging.

[Eyes High]

22 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'd like to note that not only does Sansa remember Tyrion being the only one to stop Joffrey hurting her, she thinks of him as someone she can't get help from now because he was condemned. Everyone else in that paragraph is a blood relative but her unwanted husband is included too as an alternative to Littlefinger. She always knew he was better than the other Lannister in power, but he was still a Lannister and she justifiably really didn't want to marry him, yet even so there's the implication that she'd find him more trustworthy than Littlefinger. That says a lot about her true feelings about both men imo.

The crazy part is twofold: not only is Tyrion on that list, even though she believes him to be dead, but also that Jon isn't, even though he's her only living brother as far as she knows. When Sansa later thinks in AFFC that she hasn't thought of Jon in ages, it's true.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[Lady S.]

On 5/5/2018 at 1:02 PM, Eyes High said:

The crazy part is twofold: not only is Tyrion on that list, even though she believes him to be dead, but also that Jon isn't, even though he's her only living brother as far as she knows. When Sansa later thinks in AFFC that she hasn't thought of Jon in ages, it's true.

 

That may have as much to do with him being in the Night's Watch as anything else. As far as I can tell, she never learned Benjen was MIA, yet she doesn't include him either, while thinking of Tyrion and two uncles she either never met or barely knows. But yeah, she remembers Jon favorably even at her worst in book 1 and prays for him with the rest of the fam during Blackwater, so it does feel like an oversight that that prayer is the last time she thinks of him until her final chapter in this book. (Jon has a similar gap of not mentioning her between Clash and Dance, btw.) I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that she likes/cares about Tyrion or any presumed dead non-relative more than Jon. That doesn't really fit what mentions there were in the first two books. The best I can fanwank is that since the Red Wedding she's had such a feeling of gloom that it feels like everyone is either dead, missing or a prisoner, and that's all she can focus on, forgetting the only relative who is not yet any of those things.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

The Kraken's Daughter

Asha is at her uncle's castle the Ten Towers waiting for her supporters to arrive. She's surprised by how few friends she has and realizes that she won't have enough support to take the Seastone Chair. 

Asha is still shocked from the news of her father's death and isn't entirely convinced that his death was an accident. She thinks about how frail her mother is and how her mother still thinks of Theon as a ten year old boy. Asha worries about how she'll have to break the news to her mother that Theon is dead and decides to put off telling her for a day. 

Asha makes sure that her men are well fed and then goes to see her uncle Lord Rodrik. Asha feels more at home at the Ten Towers than at Pyke and thinks back on childhood memories of playing in the castle and reading from her uncle's extensive collection of books. The Book Tower is the largest of the towers and this is where Asha knows she'll find her uncle since he spends most of his time reading. 

Rodrik is reading Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books. He tells Asha that he's reading a section about the visions had by the daughter of Aenar Targaryen prior to the Doom coming to Valyria. 

Asha explains that she's brought the wife and children of Robett Glover with her and wants them to be looked after because Deepwood Motte is important to the plans she's made. Rodrik tells her that she'll have to change her plans and says she's come too late.

The conversation turns to Balon's death and Asha asks Rodrik if he thinks that Balon was murdered. Balon's answer is noncommittal but he acknowledges that Euron's arrival a day after Balon's death is convenient timing. 

Asha learns that Aeron has called to have a kingsmoot on Old Wyk. Asha thinks it's a joke at first and asks if any of her other uncles plan on attending. Rodrik isn't sure but knows that Victarion is at least aware that a kingsmoot will take place. 

Rodrik says that he's been reading about the last kingsmoot that the ironborn held and says that it was a bloody affair. After that kingsmoot, House Greyiron ruled for a thousand years until the arrival of the Andals. Rodrik talks about how history is a wheel and suggests that what happened before may happen again. He says the Urron Greyiron who let his axemen loose on the people who attended the last kingsmoot sounds a like Euron. Rodrik thinks that he and Asha should both stay away from Old Wyk. 

Rodrik thinks the wise course of action is to side with either Stannis Baratheon or Tywin Lannister. He says that if they take a side and help them win them they'll have the opportunity to "claim the lands [they] need from a grateful king." Asha says that she'll consider siding with Tywin or Stannis after she's taken the Seastone Chair. Rodrik tells Asha that she won't be chosen to rule the ironborn. He reminds her that no woman has ever ruled the ironborn and says it's especially unlikely for her to be the first since she has three uncles in the picture. 

Rodrik asks Asha if she's certain that Theon is dead. Asha isn't sure and says there were dead bodies everywhere. She says it looks as though the northmen fought amongst themselves. 

"Crows will fight over a dead man's flesh and kill each other for his eyes." Lord Rodrik stared across the sea, watching the play of moonlight on the waves. "We had one king, then five. Now all I see are crows, squabbling over the corpse of Westeros." He fastened the shutters. "Do not go to Old Wyk, Asha. Stay with your mother. We shall not have her long, I fear."

Asha says that if she doesn't go to the kingsmoot she'll spend the rest of her life wondering what might have been. Rodrik offers to name Asha heir to the Ten Towers. He asks her to be happy with that, but Asha says that Rodrik has multiple cousins who will object to her being named his heir. 

Asha talks about how she's a kraken and says that she can defend herself. She insists that she'll sit on the Seastone Chair. Rodrik tells her she's just another crow that wants carrion. 

Asha thinks to herself that Rodrik will ultimately go to Old Wyk no matter how much he's trying to discourage her from going. 

Asha runs into Tristifer Botley who gives her news about Euron. He says that the Silence returned with all kinds of treasure and that Euron has been buying friends with gold and jewels. He's added new supporters and has a bunch of guys swearing fealty to him. 

Asha remembers how Tristifer was the first guy she ever thought she was in love with and how he was eventually sent away after they were found playing together. Tristifer says that he wrote Asha letters after they were separated but says his master refused to send them. Asha thinks to herself how she never sent a single letter and was actually relieved when Tris was sent away.

Tristifer agrees with Rodrik that it's too dangerous for Asha to go to the kingsmoot and is worried that Euron will try to kill anyone who might stand in his way, just as Urron Greyiron did. Asha thinks Euron lacks the strength to pull a move like that but Tristifer says that Euron's strength has grown. He also mentions that Euron has brought back monsters and wizards from the east.

Tristifer tells Asha that he'll be her man forever and says he wants to marry her. He says that he's already been given permission from her mother and Asha is annoyed that he went to her mother before asking her first. When Tris tells her that he hasn't touched a woman other than her, she tells him to go be with other women. She tells him that she's touched more men than she can count and thinks about the first time she had sex. The guy was from Lys and he only knew six words of the Common Tongue. After the encounter, Asha found a woman who taught how to brew moon tea.  

Tristifer is surprised by this news and wonders if Asha was forced. He says he thought that she'd wait for him. Asha tells Tris that he's a sweet boy and that if they did end up getting married, he'd grow to hate her. Tris thinks that he could never hate Asha and she responds by telling him to go find a brothel. He tells her that they were meant to be, says that he's always knows that she'd be the mother of his children, and proceeds to grab her by the arm. 

In a blink her dirk was at his throat. "Take your hand away or you won't live long enough to breed a son. Now." When he did, she lowered the blade. "You want a woman, well and good. I'll put one in your bed tonight. Pretend she's me if that will give you pleasure, but do not presume to grab at me again. I am your queen, not your wife. Remember that." Asha sheathed her dirk and left him standing there, with a fat drop of blood slowly creeping down his neck, black in the pale light of the moon.

[benteen]

I like The Reader a lot and Rodrik seems like one of the few non-douchebags on the Iron Island.  The Ten Towers sounds like a pretty good location too.  Being offered it by Rodrik is definitely something worth considering but it's understandable for a lot of reasons why Asha's eyes are on the Seastone Chair.

[John Potts]

I love the fact that it's the uber-macho Iron Islanders that are most open to having a Queen. Sure, everyone goes, "A woman as King?" (unlike our modern sensibilities where nobody would ever dispute the right of women to run countries...) but they are at least prepared to hear her pitch. And we learn how Euron might be prepared to murder his way to the throne (that's certainly true). Given how long it is since the last Kingsmoot, it's surprising all the major players are so good at the politicking!

[YaddaYadda]

Rodrik the Reader is a character I hope makes it to the end. 

That said, I like how we are sort of told what Marwyn has been up to and that he is searching for Daenys the Dreamer's visions/prophecies. 

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, John Potts said:

I love the fact that it's the uber-macho Iron Islanders that are most open to having a Queen. Sure, everyone goes, "A woman as King?" (unlike our modern sensibilities where nobody would ever dispute the right of women to run countries...) but they are at least prepared to hear her pitch. And we learn how Euron might be prepared to murder his way to the throne (that's certainly true). Given how long it is since the last Kingsmoot, it's surprising all the major players are so good at the politicking!

Well, Asha's also the first Westerosi woman in-story we've seen trying for a throne, so it's not like there's much basis for comparison. The Dornish have had plenty of female rulers, except using the title of princess instead of queen. I'd say those who do support Asha, with a few obvious exceptions, do so because of how "macho" they perceive her to be. They respect her enough as a captain and a warrior that they don't have to acknowledge her sex except to think she was one of them cursed with a woman's body.  In particular I don't think Balon, who raised her as his heir and is therefore responsible for what viability her claim has, cared about gender equality or really thought a daughter was just as well as a son. She was all he had left so he made her his replacement son. In Clash I remember him once referring to Theon and Asha as his "sons", and Theon is clearly deemed the inferior, girly son, made unmanly by his time on the mainland. Basically Balon treated Asha as Cersei wished Tywin would have regarded her, as his only true son. I'll give him minimal credit for that much, and he did have a daughter more capable and worthy than Cersei.

Speaking of the Lannisters, I notice that like Jaime and Cersei, Asha isn't truly grieving her father's loss. She's shocked by his sudden death and worried by the instability that means, especially with Euron's return, but she's not missing him as a loved one. Those emotions are all tied with her mother. (Whose influence I'd love to know more about, since this broken, grieving woman apparently raised Asha to be bold.) I can only assume that Balon didn't pay too much attention to Asha when her elder brothers were still alive, and that she felt a need to continually prove herself as his heir with some insecurity about Theon's return, because that's the only explanation for why she would unquestioningly go along with his idiotic northern invasion in the first place. Now that we have her PoV we can see she was far from blind to his faults and doesn't venerate him as two of her dumbass uncles do, so the doomed and stupid nature of his northern conquest plan should have been readily apparent long before it completely went to shit. Now they're just fucked with no real chance for mainland allies. Rodrik is right that they need to give up trying to bring back the Old Way, but it's a little late. Stannis would be pretty against ironborn friendship to begin with and the time for Lannister alliance was before they attacked the Lannisters' enemy for free, not after. There's little they can offer the Lannisters now to make them grateful. Asha is also severely kidding herself with her plan to use Lady Glover to make a northern alliance but I guess she's gotta try something.

We all love Rodrik the Reader but Tris Botley stands out another very atypical ironborn man, and unlike Rodrik, I genuinely don't understand how he could be this way. It's not just having mainland ideals, the guy is book-1-Sansa-level naively romantic in his love life. Apparently he's a grown man who has just always been like that, even living in the Iron Islands. Not just still wanting Asha but saving himself for her and being shocked that she wouldn't do the same or want that from him. The whole encounter/relationship feels engineered to give Asha her "I don't want a dozen babies..I want adventures" and "I'm your Queen, not your wife" moments. The first time I read this I did not expect this character to stick around supporting her. To his credit, he doesn't hold this harsh rejection against her, nor judge her for sleeping with other men despite his shock here and his pride in his own virginity. He still hopelessly pines for her without Jorah Mormont brand skeeviness.

I believe this chapter is the first appearance of the dreaded term "nuncle". When I first read Feast I assumed it was just a very persistent typo, and it was only in the nest book that I had to accept it was intentional. That was a sad realization.

[John Potts]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, Asha's also the first Westerosi woman in-story we've seen trying for a throne, so it's not like there's much basis for comparison. The Dornish have had plenty of female rulers, except using the title of princess instead of queen

Sure, and of course we have Danny over in Essos (although she's not asking anyone else if they want her as queen - she's just conquering them). But unlike, say, Sansa in the Vale or poor Jeyne Poole in the North, she's claiming the throne in her own right, even when there are men available to fill the role. And sure, Balon only groomed her as his heir because he'd lost his other sons last time he rebelled (some guys just don't learn!) but it's still surprising that he was prepared to break with tradition even that far. Little steps!

 

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Stannis would be pretty against ironborn friendship to begin with and the time for Lannister alliance was before they attacked the Lannisters' enemy for free, not after.

I loved Tywin (RIP - probably not) observing, "Why would we ally with them - they're doing what we want for nothing!" Balon just couldn't help rejecting the gift horse when it was offered.

[YaddaYadda]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

We all love Rodrik the Reader but Tris Botley stands out another very atypical ironborn man, and unlike Rodrik, I genuinely don't understand how he could be this way. It's not just having mainland ideals, the guy is book-1-Sansa-level naively romantic in his love life. Apparently he's a grown man who has just always been like that, even living in the Iron Islands. Not just still wanting Asha but saving himself for her and being shocked that she wouldn't do the same or want that from him. The whole encounter/relationship feels engineered to give Asha her "I don't want a dozen babies..I want adventures" and "I'm your Queen, not your wife" moments. The first time I read this I did not expect this character to stick around supporting her. To his credit, he doesn't hold this harsh rejection against her, nor judge her for sleeping with other men despite his shock here and his pride in his own virginity. He still hopelessly pines for her without Jorah Mormont brand skeeviness.

One of the things that sort of bothered me with Asha/Tris is that she doesn't have much respect for him as a man because he's a virgin, because he waited around for her. She even questions his fighting skills at one point. He does come on a bit strong in his introduction I will give her that, but she thinks he's a bit of coward for turning his ship around and not going with Euron. It's only when she sees him fighting in ADWD that she seems to gain some respect for him. 

Tris Botley is another good character. There was Baelor Blacktyde too, but Euron hacked him to pieces, so there goes that.

[Lady S.]

17 hours ago, John Potts said:

And sure, Balon only groomed her as his heir because he'd lost his other sons last time he rebelled (some guys just don't learn!) but it's still surprising that he was prepared to break with tradition even that far. Little steps!

I wonder how he would have felt if Euron weren't his next eldest brother. Vic hates Euron but he still doesn't feel right going against his elder until Aeron calls the kingsmoot to make it ok, which hadn't happened in thousands of years and no one could have anticipated. Of course it's also just as likely Balon would have wanted a worthy heir descended from him rather being a childless king replaced by his brothers, but whoo, nobody in that family wants Euron next in line. Except for Euron, obviously, which is why he has to murder them. Theon was really doomed anyway for that reason. Even if he'd returned to the islands under different circumstances and didn't make all the wrong life choices, Euron would just end up murdering him whenever he returned, seeing as he murdered Lord Botley just for saying that Theon would be the rightful heir, even when Theon himself is in no position to assert his claim. 

[Avaleigh]

Cersei III

Cersei dresses for Tommen and Margaery's wedding and then sits down to have breakfast. When she cracks open one of the eggs she sees a bloody, half formed chick inside. Her stomach lurches at the gruesome sight, so she changes her mind about eating and asks her maid to bring her hot wine to drink instead. She thinks about the long day she has ahead of her. 

Jaime is still getting on her nerves and she thinks he doesn't get it when he assures her that he's taken measures to ensure that Tommen will be safe from any poisoning attempts. Cersei has the prophecy on her mind and tells Jaime that Tyrion could be making plans to open Tommen's throat even as they speak. Jaime says that even if Tyrion is planning to attack Tommen, the Kingsguard will be around to protect him. Cersei says that she remembers how well the Kingsguard protected Joffrey and orders Jaime to remain with Tommen all night. 

Cersei doesn't want Tommen left alone with Margaery at all but has agreed for the couple to spend their wedding night together. After that, Margaery will go back to sleeping with her cousins in the Maidenvault. 

Jaime asks Cersei if she still plans on burning the Tower of the Hand and Cersei confirms that the tower will be burned after the wedding feast. It's the only part of the day she's looking forward to and she's hopeful that she might be able to smoke Varys or Tyrion out of wherever it is they're hiding. Jaime says that if Tyrion or Varys were hiding in the Tower of the Hand that he and his men would have found one or both of them by now. 

Cersei says that once the war is over she intends to build a new palace beyond the river. 

She had dreamed of it the night before last, a magnificent white castle surrounded by woods and gardens, long leagues from the stinks and noise of King's Landing. "This city is a cesspit. For half a groat I would move the court to Lannisport and rule the realm from Casterly Rock."

Jaime tells her what a dumb idea that is and says that as long as Tommen sits on the Iron Throne, the realm will see him as the true king. Cersei says she knows this and was only saying that she wanted to move the court to Lannisport, not that she actually would. She asks Jaime if losing his hand has made him stupid. 

Jaime tells Cersei that they might not be able to control the wildfire and says that she could end up burning down the Red Keep whether she means to or not. Cersei is confident that Lord Hallyne and his pyromancers will be able to control the flames. She wants all of King's Landing to see the wildfire and says that it will be a lesson to their enemies. Jaime tells her that she sounds like Aerys. 

Cersei wonders how she could ever have loved Jaime.

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me.

Tommen's wedding is small in comparison to Joffrey's. No one wants to pay for another lavish ceremony so there are fewer than a hundred guests and Margaery is wearing the same gown that she wore when she married Joffrey. Cersei is dressed in mourning and feels that the wedding is happening too soon after Joffrey's death. She thinks again about how the Tyrells should have been content with a betrothal. 

The wedding feast is held in the Small Hall and as Jaime escorts her there, she tells him that she blames him for the wedding taking place at all. She says that Margaery should be mourning Joffrey instead of marrying his brother. 

When Margaery and Tommen go to sit at the high table, Margaery stops by Cersei so that she can kiss her and greet her. She tells Cersei that she feels she has another mother now and prays that their love for Tommen will unite them. When Margaery claims that she loved Joffrey dearly and that he's in her prayers, Cersei wishes that she could slap Margaery in front of everyone. 

Only seven courses are served during the feast and there's only one singer. He goes through a few songs and when he leaves, Olenna complains that she was hoping he'd play 'The Rains of Castamere".

Whenever Cersei looks at Olenna she's reminded of Maggy the Frog. Cersei thinks about the prophecy again and fixates on the part where Maggy tells her that "another, younger and more beautiful" will come to take all that she holds dear. 

Cersei looks at Margaery and decides that Magaery isn't as good looking as she is. 

Various guests make toasts to the king and his new queen and Cersei wishes that she could throw wine in everyone's face and remind them that she's their true queen. Cersei drinks multiple cups of wine and barely eats anything. Jaime isn't really eating either and Cersei realizes that he's feeling as anxious as she is that something might go wrong. 

Everytime Cersei looks at Tommen, she thinks about Joffrey clawing at his throat before he died. When Tommen suddenly starts to cough, Cersei rushes over to him to make sure he's okay. After Cersei realizes that Tommen is fine, she quickly leaves the room so that the guests won't see her cry. 

Lady Taena Merryweather follows Cersei and offers her a handkerchief. After Cersei wipes away her tears, Taena tells Cersei that her maid Senelle is paid to tell Margaery everything she does. Cersei asks Taena if she's sure and Taena encourages her to have Senelle followed. She says that Margaery's cousins are the ones who meet with Senelle to receive information. She says they meet up at the sept and says that Senelle will be meeting with Megga tomorrow beneath the altar of the Maiden.

Cersei want to know why Taena would betray Margaery and Taena says she's from Myr, not the Reach, and at the end of the day, she wants what's best for her husband and son. Cersei says that Taena will be rewarded if what she says is true. 

When Cersei returns to the Small Hall, Jaime tells her that he too was startled by Tommen's little coughing fit. Jaime again tries to reassure Cersei that Tommen is safe, but Cersei replied that anyone who wears a crown can never be safe. 

The dancing portion of the evening has started and Margaery and all of her cousins make sure to dance with Tommen. When Margaery dances with her brother Loras, Cersei is annoyed when she realizes that Margaery and Loras look more alike than she and Jaime do. When Jaime asks Cersei to dance, she tells him that she doesn't want him fumbling at her with his stump. Cersei tries to get him to give her refill on her wine but he declines, so she has to get the wine herself. 

Cersei turns down the other people who ask her to dance and everyone else takes the hint that she isn't in a dancing mood. She watches the other guests and takes note of the handsome Bastard of the Driftmark, Aurane Waters. She's noticed him at court before and thinks he looks like a less attractive version of Rhaegar Targaryen. 

As Senelle goes to fill Cersei's wine cup, Jaime comments that Cersei has had enough to drink for the night. Cersei thinks to herself that all the wine in the world won't be enough to see her through this wedding. When Cersei rises to her feet, Jaime has to catch her before she falls. She announces to the room that she wants everyone to join her outside so that they can light a candle and celebrate the union of Highgarden and Casterly Rock. 

The crowd watched as the Tower of the Hand goes up in flames. People gasp and cheer and make toasts. Cersei can feel the heat from the burning tower and thinks about how beautiful it is. She starts remembering all of the men who served as the Hand of the King over the years. 

Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

The Tower of the Hand starts to break apart and fall to the ground. Olenna says that it's time the king and queen were put to bed, so Cersei asks Jaime to escort Tommen and Margaery to Tommen's rooms. When Jaime asks Cersei if he should escort her to her room as well, Cersei declines and says that she wants to stay and watch the fire.

Jaime tells her that she shouldn't stay alone and Cersei says that Ser Osmund will stay to protect her. She links arms with Osmund and they continue to watch the fire together. 

[benteen]

Ah good old Cersei, she's always good for an entertaining point of view.

Now that I think of it, maybe burning the Tower of the Hand isn't a bad idea considering all the hidden passages in there, especially ones that could be utilized by Varys's little birds.

[nodorothyparker]

The difference between Joffrey's and Tommen's weddings really highlights what a diminished place of power the Lannisters are coming from in the wake of Tywin's death and Tyrion's trial laying all of the family dirty laundry out there.  Even beyond the obvious smaller attendance and number of courses at the feast afterward.  No one dared to quibble over Joffrey cloaking his bride in Lannister colors even though he was at least on paper a Baratheon.  But here we've got Olenna insisting on a Baratheon cloak in pretty brazenly pointing out that a groom was supposed to be using his father's colors while remarking that Cersei is Tommen's mother "after all, of that we can be sure."  Cersei is bitching throughout about the Tyrells strongarming the wedding into happening so soon when a betrothal for the time being should have been enough, failing to see that the Lannisters aren't in a position to dictate terms anymore to the ally they desperately need to keep.

Love Cersei getting progressively drunker and more paranoid by the page.  Of course everyone, including her own brother and longterm bannermen, are idiots not to be trusted and she'll have to go out and find replacements for them.  Of course Cersei being Cersei those replacements all seem to be people who either flatter her or those who are physically attractive to her.

[YaddaYadda]

23 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The difference between Joffrey's and Tommen's weddings really highlights what a diminished place of power the Lannisters are coming from in the wake of Tywin's death and Tyrion's trial laying all of the family dirty laundry out there.  Even beyond the obvious smaller attendance and number of courses at the feast afterward.  No one dared to quibble over Joffrey cloaking his bride in Lannister colors even though he was at least on paper a Baratheon.  But here we've got Olenna insisting on a Baratheon cloak in pretty brazenly pointing out that a groom was supposed to be using his father's colors while remarking that Cersei is Tommen's mother "after all, of that we can be sure."  Cersei is bitching throughout about the Tyrells strongarming the wedding into happening so soon when a betrothal for the time being should have been enough, failing to see that the Lannisters aren't in a position to dictate terms anymore to the ally they desperately need to keep.

This is such a good point about the cloak and the whole symbolism around it. 

I think that it also highlights Tywin's hubris in ASOS that it was a Lannister cloak and not a Baratheon cloak that Margaery wore at her wedding to Joffrey. All of his talk to Tyrion of this being a Lannister era before Joffrey's wedding, the marriage taking place on the first day of the new century . . . dying in the privy and stinking the way he did could not have happened to a nicer better person.

14 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

Cersei is the absolute worst. I like how two of the people named are well and alive. 

[John Potts]

On ‎24‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 3:26 AM, Avaleigh said:

Jaime tells her what a dumb idea that is and says that as long as Tommen sits on the Iron Throne, the realm will see him as the true king. Cersei says she knows this and was only saying that she wanted to move the court to Lannisport, not that she actually would. She asks Jaime if losing his hand has made him stupid.

It's nice to see that Jaime isn't an idiot: he consistently gives sensible advice. Of course, Cersei is convinced she's the clever one and doesn't need to listen to anyone and immediately bristles at any ideas other than her own. Knocking down the Tower of the Hand might have been a good idea, given the level of insecurity it represents (especially now that Varys has gone missing), but I'm not sure what sort of a signal it sends to everyone else.

Love drunken Cersei!

[Lady S.]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:15 AM, nodorothyparker said:

No one dared to quibble over Joffrey cloaking his bride in Lannister colors even though he was at least on paper a Baratheon.  But here we've got Olenna insisting on a Baratheon cloak in pretty brazenly pointing out that a groom was supposed to be using his father's colors while remarking that Cersei is Tommen's mother "after all, of that we can be sure." 

And after freaking out about Kevan knowing about the twincest, neither of Olenna's very pointed comments there registers with Cersei. Idt there's an adult there fooled about Tommen's parentage but Cersei believes Kevan and Tyrion were the only ones to know her big secret, and that's the one thing she doesn't really worry about.

I hope Jaime had a good time chaperoning Tommen/Marg's slumber party with her cousins. It took me a while to get that the Targ princess married to a Plumm claimed a pregnancy was the product of her dead husband, so she's saying Marg could get pregnant and claim it was Tommen's even if he's physically incapable and the only way to prevent that is to have a witness to the non-consummation. Which is all just an impressive amount of projection on her part.

On 5/23/2018 at 9:26 PM, Avaleigh said:

Various guests make toasts to the king and his new queen and Cersei wishes that she could throw wine in everyone's face and remind them that she's their true queen.

I love that this is becoming her go-to move after doing it to Kevan. Also I always loved that she was jealous of Marg/Loras looking more alike than her and Jaime.,

It stands out to me that Jaime was just as worried about Tommen getting killed as Cersei and that she noticed it. She's otherwise pretty awful to him throughout but seems to be recognizing him as a co-parent for the first time, and we see Jaime take responsibility for his son and have concern/fear for his safety which he never really did wrt the twincest secret. Speaking of parenting this chapter has the line "No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he [Joffrey] took her nipple in his mouth to nurse." which reads as if she's comparing breastfeeding to sexual pleasure, and even if she just means the contentment of hanging out with Jaime, it still feels like a very, very weird way to express her love for her dead firstborn. If she'd thought of him being placed on her chest for the first time, sure, but actually sucking on the nipple? I have no personal experience to go on but I've never heard that part of motherhood described as a fun sensation. GRRM just seems to have a weird thing for breastfeeding imo.

Lastly, it says a lot about Cersei's conflicted feelings for her father that she savors the thought of him burning "most of all", more than Ned or even Tyrion. It could be she just associates the title most with him but most of her experience of Handsing would have been with Jon Arryn, having only spent a few years with Tywin at Aerys's court.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Lady S.

[YaddaYadda]

It could be that Cersei hated Tywin for marrying her off to Robert and then wanted her to marry again and "breed" to put an end to the rumors of incest. In one of her upcoming chapters, when she reveals that the betrothal between her and Rhaegar fell through because of Aerys, her aunt tells her that Tywin will find her someone better than the prince. Robert hardly qualifies as that, especially when we know he slapped her around a couple of times and essentially raped her when he was drunk.