The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[nodorothyparker]

No, there really wouldn't have been a good choice for her that would have allowed her to keep all the parts of her vow but it's still interesting to think about.

I was mildly amused at Arya not recognizing "some old king kneeling" on the tavern sign after Jaime told us in his chapter that it's the last Stark king.  Arya mentions in one of her Harrenhal chapters that she never paid enough attention during lessons to even know all the Northern sigils, so at least she's consistent.

[benteen]

Wow, great scenario you came up with, Avaleigh.  I agree protecting Arya is the first duty but it's, to use something in Star Trek, a no-win scenario.  She might have had a chance to go back if she didn't drop that boulder on the Tully men.  But they would likely be out for blood themselves.  Jaime is too valuable as a hostage to let go and at this point, Jaime isn't the guy who would have honored his vow to Catelyn.  Plus, letting him go to an possibly unknown fate would put Robb in the position that the Lannisters were in of ignoring Arya's existence because they didn't know where she was.

If Brienne could somehow return safely with both Arya and Jaime, Robb would have an heir, maybe you keep Karstark from completely going nuts (probably not) and you can still hold Jaime for a prisoner exchange.  Maybe Robb makes that Sansa for Jaime exchange now.

[Lady S.]

On 6/18/2016 at 11:40 AM, Avaleigh said:

It's sad that these "good" guys are stealing from young kids like Arya and her friends or from people like Brienne who actually pay them generously. That I-owe-you slip is completely meaningless and Tom has to know how ridiculously unlikely it is that he'll ever pay these people back.

I guess we'll never know if there was more to their offer before Harwin identified Arya, but it's especially bad that they're not even offering to trade for Brienne's boat or to escort Arya's pack to a safer hide-out. IIRC, Hot Pie is only given a home at the inn because he'd proved his baking skills. Arya and Gendry would have probably just been sent on their way, even though a young girl and a teenage boy afoot on their own would be pretty unlikely to escape the Bloody Mummers or other human monsters. Not exactly the same as selling Gendry to Mel after he'd agreed to join them, but still sounds pretty shitty.

I suppose it's for the best that Arya never reached Riverrun since the Red Wedding is already in motion. She could have ended up on the inside of the Twins instead of the outer grounds, either getting herself killed with her mother or being taken hostage with Roose and Walder squabbling over who got to make her their daughter-in-law.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn II

Catelyn is still confined to her father's rooms, so the news she receives is minimal. She knows that Ser Robin Ryger and his men were unsuccessful in their attempt to recapture Jaime, but doesn't know any details apart from hearing that Jaime somehow managed to sink Ryger's galley. She also knows that about forty men from House Frey left Riverrun on the day of Edmure's return and made sure to trample on Robb's banner on their way out. She knows that angry words were exchanged before they left, but doesn't know what caused the men to become upset. 

Robb has returned to the castle and asks to see Catelyn in the Great Hall. She thinks that Robb will forgive her and feels that he'll be able to understand why she did what she did. When she walks into the Great Hall she thinks that at least half of the men there will probably want to see her hang. As she heads towards the dais and Robb, she feels comforted by the presence of the Blackfish and wonders who all the unfamiliar people are surrounding her son. 

The Blackfish greets Catelyn warmly and clearly doesn't care what the other men think. Robb greets his Mother and after she tells him that she's glad to see him looking healthy, she cuts to the chase and brings up her decision to free Jaime. Robb understands that she did it for the love she has for Sansa and Arya, but Rickard Karstark is furious and tells Catelyn that she's robbed him of his vengeance. The Greatjon tries to get Rickard to back down, but Rickard insists that Catelyn's actions qualify as treason. Robb tells Rickard that no man will get away with calling Catelyn a traitor in his presence except for this one time . Catelyn basically tells Rickard that she'll do what she can to make it up to him, but he rejects her attempt and leaves the hall in a huff. 

Robb tells Catelyn that he understands what it means to love and says that she and his uncles should speak privately. Lady Mormont takes the time to tell Catelyn that she would have done the same thing for her own daughters had she been in Catelyn's position. The Greatjon gives Catelyn a huge bear hug and Edmure tells Catelyn that he's been praying for Sansa and Arya. 

Once the Great Hall clears out, Robb introduces his mother to the strangers on the dais. They are all members of House Westerling and the Westerlings are/were sworn to House Lannister. As Catelyn is wondering how Robb managed secure the allegiance of a house sworn to the Lannisters, her son introduces Lady Jeyne Westerling and says that she's his wife.

Catelyn realizes that she can't come down on Robb for following his heart because he's just forgiven her for following her own. She can't help but admire how well her son has played her into accepting Jeyne as her daughter in law without a fight. Catelyn is stiff about it, but she embraces Jeyne and tells the room that she has a new daughter.

Jeyne's mother asks if they can retire to their rooms and the Westerlings leave so that Robb and Catelyn can have some time to talk. Catelyn says that Jeyne is very pretty and asks how many swords she's brought with her. Robb admits that Jeyne has only brought fifty men with her and Catelyn tells her son that he's lost the support of the Freys. She thinks about the four thousand men that the Freys sent off with Robb upon his marriage contract and wonders how Robb could be so stupid. 

Robb explains that he was wounded when he took Jeyne's father's castle and it was Jeyne who nursed him back to health. When he received the news about Bran and Rickon, Jeyne was with him and comforted him with sex. Robb says that he married her the next day because he felt that it was the only honorable thing to do. Catelyn says that this excuse isn't going to appease Walder Frey.

Robb knows that he fucked up and tells his mother that he's messed up everything other than the battles. He admits that he was wrong for not listening to her about Theon and thinks that Bran and Rickon would still be alive if he had.

When Catelyn asks for details about how the Freys took the news, Robb mentions that Black Walder flat out said that his sisters wouldn't mind marrying Robb if he were a widower. Robb only refrained from retaliating because Jeyne asked him to be merciful. Olyvar Frey actually wanted to stay with Robb, but he was forced to leave with the other Freys. The Greatjon advised Robb to attack the Freys then and there and Catelyn thinks that it would have been bad for her son to start fighting among his own. 

Robb wonders if there's any possibility that Lord Frey will be reasonable and says that the Manderlys and Umbers are both open to marital unions with House Frey. Catelyn reminds Robb that he knows perfectly well that Walder Frey is a hard hearted prick who is anything but reasonable. She says that not only did Robb break his vow, but he insulted the honor of House Frey by marrying a girl from an enemy house and a minor house at that. When Robb points out that the Westerlings are in fact an ancient house who married into both the Targaryen and Lannister families, Catelyn says the Westerlings being an old house only makes things worse since a lot of people see the Freys as upstarts in comparison to the more established houses. She says that Walder Frey has also been slighted in this fashion before and mentions how her father once refused a marriage offer of one of Frey's daughters to Edmure. 

Catelyn asks Robb why Grey Wind isn't with him and Robb says that a hall is no place for a wolf. He also admits that Jeyne and her mother are frightened of Grey Wind. Catelyn says that Grey Wind is apart of Robb and says that if they're afraid of Grey Wind it's like being afraid of Robb too. Robb mentions that Jeyne witnessed Grey Wind kill a knight that Jeyne had known all of her life and has been scared of the direwolf ever since. Robb also says that Grey Wind doesn't like Jeyne's uncle Rolph and growls at the man every time he comes near. Catelyn immediately advises Robb to send Ser Rolph away at once. Robb argues that he needs more men like Ser Rolph and says that he can't send away Rolph just because Grey Wind doesn't like the way he smells. 

Catelyn asks Robb not to ignore her advice about Grey Wind the way he ignored her about Theon. She believes that the direwolves were sent to her children from the gods and says there were five direwolves for the five Stark children. Robb points out that there were six direwolves and says that he also used to believe that the direwolves were their protectors until he heard about what Theon did to Bran and Rickon. He doesn't think their direwolves were much help to them. Still, Robb agrees to find some pretext for sending Rolph away. He says he's doing it to ease his mother's mind and says that she's suffered enough.

In the audience chamber above the Great Hall, Edmure is talking about the fight at the Stone Mill. The Blackfish waits until the servants leave and then tells Edmure that they've heard enough of him boasting. Edmure is taken aback and the Blackfish tells his nephew that he should be thanking Robb for allowing to save face in front of his people. The Blackfish says that if it had been up to him, he would have had Edmure flayed for his stupidity. Edmure asks if Robb is the only one who is allowed to win any victories and addresses Robb by his name. Robb tells Edmure to remember that he's his king and asks him if he's forgotten.

Edmure still doesn't understand what the problem is and Robb explains that he wanted Tywin to come west where they would have had the advantage since the Lannister soldiers are mostly on foot. If Tywin had been occupied fighting Robb, he wouldn't have been able to rescue the Lannisters in King's Landing. Edmure screwed up the entire plan by not doing as he was told by only holding Riverrun. 

As Catelyn hears about how Tywin made an alliance with House Tyrell, she thinks about how much it would have helped their side if Robb had fallen for Margaery rather then Jeyne.

Catelyn bluntly tells Robb that people will think he's no king at all if he doesn't deal with Theon and take back Winterfell. Robb admits that he didn't think Theon would actually hurt Bran and Rickon otherwise he would have gone to take back Winterfell sooner. The last they've heard from Winterfell was that Ser Rodrik was trying to take back the castle and was assembling a host at Castle Cerwyn.

Edmure asks how they'll manage to get to Winterfell with the Ironborn holding Moat Cailin. Robb says that they have to win back the alliance with the Freys somehow. He doesn't think there's any hope without them and wonders what they can be given to persuade them. Catelyn thinks it's not a matter of what they should give, it's who.

[benteen]

I always liked the fact that the Blackfish hugged Catelyn and didn't care what the other men in the room thought.  This is one of the reasons I liked the character so much and it's stuff like this that is missing from his show counterpart.

Also liked the Olyver wanted to stay with Robb even after he broke his marriage vow.  I hope Olyvar can survive the inevitable Frey takedown.

It seems to me that Robb (and the Blackfish) didn't tell Edmure what their plan was and left him with the vague "hold the castle" orders.  This is a legitimate failing on Robb's part.  I get that Edmure might not be as strong a Lord as you would hope to have and perhaps a little foolish but like it or not, Edmure is Robb's most important bannerman.  Robb needed to be honest to him and tell him what he was planning to do.  I think if he had explained it, Edmure would have carried out the plan.  But Robb chose to conceal this information from him (heh, sounds like a certain character on Game of Thrones this season) and it blew up in his face.  I won't let Edmure totally off the hook for not following the "hold the castle" order.  He was embarrassed with getting captured during his first battle and was itching for this fight with Tywin.

I can't believe Robb thought it was a good idea to offer the Greatjohn's uncles for marriage to the Freys.

[Avaleigh]

I have a lot for this chapter. 

I appreciated the Blackfish's treatment of Catelyn but felt that he was a little OTT with Edmure. He wants to have Edmure flayed because Edmure isn't a mind reader? I realize that Brynden wasn't entirely serious and I understand that Edmure fucked up, but I have a harder time understanding why they didn't trust him enough to tell him to hold Riverrun because they want to trap Tywin. Why wouldn't they want him to know that? Has he shown himself to not be trustworthy? When Robb asks if Edmure didn't wonder why he lingered after Oxcross, it sounds as though he felt that Edmure should have known instinctively what Robb's plans were. Isn't that a little unfair? 

That being said, Edmure does seem jealous of his young nephew. Not only is he jealous of Robb's success on the battlefield but he seems slightly resentful that Robb is a king and officially outranks him. They were basically on the same level prior to Ned's death and then Edmure was suddenly in the position where he was expected to bow and obey his teenaged nephew. I wonder how the average person would feel about taking orders from the underaged child of a sibling?

Rickard Karstark is a foolish ass. I understand why he's pissed but he was in the catbird seat could have asked for something to make up for him not getting the vengeance that he wants. Why wouldn't he hold out for lands/honors and/or a marriage, possibly even more than one? Catelyn made it clear that she was willing to work with him. 

I'm going to look up what ends up happening with Rolph because I didn't remember Grey Wind having that reaction with him. 

Regarding the Westerlings and Spicers being in cahoots with Tywin--I'm on the fence but definitely think that Sybell is suspect. She would have had to have been very ballsy indeed to arrange something like that if that is in fact what happened. 

Regarding Olyvar, it's characters like Olyvar in addition to Pod and Brienne who make me despise Lady Stoneheart. The Freys aren't all horrible and I refuse to root for a character who wants to kill people based on their last name. Robb acknowledges that if he'd been speaking with Ser Stevron that the conversation likely would have gone differently. There are certain Freys I don't mind ending up in a pie, but I just cant root for their house or the Lannisters to be extinguished because of the bad apples who are in charge.

Black Walder is disgusting in addition to being stupid. He seriously thought it was a good idea to bring up murdering Jeyne in front of Robb? If he was seriously considering that it would have made more sense to poison Jeyne without acting like he was upset about anything. The idea that Black Walder thinks that Robb would be okay with having Jeyne killed after he agreed to marry her to protect her honor makes it sounds as though Black Walder never even met Robb. 

I have to say that reading about Jeyne and her family makes me despise the Talisa character even more than I already do. They throw in this ridiculous character and they already had a fascinating story to play with that could have taken the same amount of time. Not only that but the role of Sybell could have been beefed up if she was indeed working with Tywin. That would have been a lot more exciting than the stupid Talisa crap that we got.

I agree that Robb was stupid for thinking that Walder Frey would be satisfied with Umber or Manderly as a substitute. Manderly wouldn't have been too bad if it had been the eldest son, but I guess the best offer would have been keeping Arya in the equation, promising that the first child of the Robb/Jeyne union would marry a Frey, and possibly Catelyn for one of Walder's older unmarried sons.

I keep forgetting that Robb isn't just the King in the North but he's the King of the Trident as well. Given Littlefinger's current title, I can't help but wonder if this title isn't the next rung on the ladder for him.

The Greatjon would be pissed if he knew what his son was up to on the show. It's nice that he was kind to Catelyn here. Lady Mormont was nice too. I appreciated that moment and wish that Catelyn had thought about it more.

Glover's reaction was interesting considering the most recent Glover scene we had on the show. Mallister was pissed too. 

Regarding the direwolves, I did like Robb reminding Catelyn that Jon exists and that there were six direwolves as much as she'd like to pretend that there aren't. I also think that Grey Wind not being fond of the Westerlings seems to support that they weren't necessarily pro-Robb. 

Robb admitted to making a huge mistake regarding Theon and I loved that because it seems like it's rare when the people in charge in this story can admit to hugely screwing up. As painful as it is, he doesn't try to fool himself. Joffrey wouldn't have cared. Cersei and Balon would have blamed someone else. Stannis would have said that his duty prevented him from acting. Dany is maybe the only other monarch who seems like she would be able to own screwing up in that way, but she certainly wouldn't admit it to anyone. 

I do wonder how Margaery and Robb would have gotten along. Would she have been okay with living in the bleak North? I think Robb would have fallen for her like a ton of bricks but I'm less certain of Margaery. Actually, I can easily see her falling for Robb it's her family that I'm unsure about. Would Olenna think it was a good idea? 

I wonder what Cersei and Tyrion would think if they knew that Edmure Tully had a hand in saving their asses. 

[benteen]

If I recall with the Blackfish, doesn't he try to reassure Edmure a little when he realizes how bad Edmure feels about "screwing up" the entire battle?

I recently said I don't know what the show writers were thinking with one character's motivations but I can't understand what GRRM was thinking with the whole Robb/Edmure thing.  Robb apparently didn't tell Edmure his plan but Edmure was just supposed to figure it out on his own?  Bizarre.

The one problem I see with trying to establish a Robb/Margaery marriage is it's a logistical nightmare.  You would have to go through the Westerlands in order to contact and coordinate one another.  The only way a Stark/Tyrell marriage alliance works would be to conquer the Westerlands and make it part of a giant Kingdom of the North that includes Winterfell, Riverrun, Casterly Rock and Highgarden.  You might as well conquer the rest the Westeros at that point! ;)

As small as The Crag is, the Kingdom of the North would be expanding by including a House from the Westerlands.

Agreed about Robb falling like a ton of bricks and Margaery being uncertain.  Olenna would know that Robb would never harm her granddaughter and that he would be honorable but I think she'd have a similar view of Stark honor that she has with her son's intelligence.

I had forgotten that Catelyn said she would work to make it up to Karstark.  I'm not unsympathetic to Karstark in wanting revenge.  It's understandable.  But his sons were killed on the battlefield which is different from the show.  He was a fool.

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I have to say that reading about Jeyne and her family makes me despise the Talisa character even more than I already do. They throw in this ridiculous character and they already had a fascinating story to play with that could have taken the same amount of time. Not only that but the role of Sybell could have been beefed up if she was indeed working with Tywin. That would have been a lot more exciting than the stupid Talisa crap that we got.

I agree that Robb was stupid for thinking that Walder Frey would be satisfied with Umber or Manderly as a substitute. Manderly wouldn't have been too bad if it had been the eldest son, but I guess the best offer would have been keeping Arya in the equation, promising that the first child of the Robb/Jeyne union would marry a Frey, and possibly Catelyn for one of Walder's older unmarried sons.

Totally agree about the Talisa character.  You had a chance to introduce an interesting new dynamic with the Westerlings.  Sybell Spicer could have been a good role for a veteran actress.  Instead, we got the most boring love story imaginable which made Robb look like a selfish ass who got exactly what he deserved at the Red Wedding.  Unrealistic modern woman Talisa didn't add anything to the show (though I do like the actress who played her, Oona Chaplin).

Not to mention you had that trolling of the book fans where Talisa has a worried look on her face when she hears Robb's going to the Crag and nothing comes out of it.

Manderly wouldn't be too bad if hey were marrying the heir of White Harbor.  Promising Robb and Jeyne's first child probably would have been the strongest choice but I suspect Walder still wouldn't have been happy with that.

Edited June 23, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

Oh, Robb.  Here's where the wheels really start to come off.

I hate Talisa too.  She was totally anachronistic and out of place for the story as presented and her placement in it only makes Robb look like an ass who deliberately chose to disregard his commitments and obligations as king for his own wants.  My hunch has long been that once they aged up all the Stark kids, the showrunners concluded that while a 16-year-old boy king and son of Ned Stark might be boneheaded enough to throw everything away for his sense of honor in trying to immediately do what he considered the right thing it would be a harder sell for an adult-aged Robb who should have been at least aware enough to consider the political implications.  This chapter is very well written in that you can feel both Catelyn's and Robb's frustration here in knowing that they did what they did for what they believed were good reasons and also knowing that they've completely fucked themselves over as a result.  Fifty men for 4,000 is definitely a poor tradeoff.

I've also never had much of an opinion one way or the other on theories that the Westerlings were somehow working with Tywin.  It may be every bit as simple as a very minor house with upward pretensions seeing a chance to marry a daughter off to the heir of a great house who would be king if his rebellion was successful and then having second thoughts as his chances faltered and the reality of what Tywin might do to them set in.

The Tyrells never would have gone for a Robb-Margaery match.  It's clear from their first appearance that they want a grandchild on the Iron Throne by whichever king will make that happen and Robb is most definitely not fighting for it.

I like the visual of the Freys trampling and riding over Robb's banner as the first clue Catelyn has that something's gone terribly wrong.  There's a horrible sort of Frey practicality in Black Walder suggesting that Robb become an insta-widower to keep his commitment.  Rickard Karstark sort of made sense on the show wanting revenge for his son being killed on guard duty but he comes off as completely unrealistic here.  His sons were killed in battle, I'm assuming by battlefield rules.  Did he honestly think they were going to keep Jaime imprisoned for a year or longer and then trot him out to be executed for that?  His value to them was as a living hostage or eventual trade.

It does feel like Edmure was left out of a fairly important strategy meeting.  As it is, he's basically getting his ass chewed for not being a mind reader.

[vibeology]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Manderly wouldn't be too bad if hey were marrying the heir of White Harbor.  Promising Robb and Jeyne's first child probably would have been the strongest choice but I suspect Walder still wouldn't have been happy with that.

Way too long of a wait for the payoff. Walder Frey seems like he's going to live forever fueled by being horrible, but in truth he's only got a few years left and then how does he hold Robb to that promise? Walder wants the gratification of seeing his family rise up now. That's why he wanted Robb.

And yes, for me the show suffered greatly in swapping out Jeyne Westerling for Talisa of Volantis. Jeyne was a mystery in the best sort of way whereas Talisa tried really hard to be mysterious because it made for good TV but nothing ever came of it. I think they wanted a love story and they wanted to add a female character without adding her whole family so they came up with Talisa or Volantis but I think it was lacking.

Did Jeyne seduce Robb? (Because why would a noble daughter be sent to play nursemaid in a castle that certainly has a Maester?) Is her family working with Tywin now? At some point in the future? Ever? Does she love Robb? Is Sybil working with Tywin alone? What is up with Ser Rolph? The Westerlings are a favourite minor plot of mine because it's a reminder that this is a very big world and everyone has their own motivations and we as readers, coming into the stories through points of view, are really not getting the whole picture.

[Lady S.]

11 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I appreciated the Blackfish's treatment of Catelyn but felt that he was a little OTT with Edmure. He wants to have Edmure flayed because Edmure isn't a mind reader? I realize that Brynden wasn't entirely serious and I understand that Edmure fucked up, but I have a harder time understanding why they didn't trust him enough to tell him to hold Riverrun because they want to trap Tywin. Why wouldn't they want him to know that? Has he shown himself to not be trustworthy? When Robb asks if Edmure didn't wonder why he lingered after Oxcross, it sounds as though he felt that Edmure should have known instinctively what Robb's plans were. Isn't that a little unfair? 

Yes! This is what I've been saying all along. Why is Robb the least bit surprised that his fuck-up overgallant uncle didn't figure out the plan on his own? Before we even meet Edmure, it's clear that Ned and Cat, two certified non-geniuses, don't think too highly of his intellect. I don't think the Blackfish had much trust in him in book 1 either, even though they hadn't seen each other for years. Nobody is under any illusions about this guy's grasp of strategy, yet when Brynden and Robb made this plan it never occurred to them that Edmure might need some explanation. They wouldn't even have had to go into detail, if Edmure just knew his part could come later, I don't think there's much chance he'd disobey. For all his faults, Edmure has never shown himself to be a security risk or unable to keep anything secret. I can't see how giving him clear orders and more info could ever be a risk equal to or greater than what happened when he wasn't told.

It's apt to compare this miscommunication to the Sansa/Jon lack of communication because both feel pretty contrived to me. It had to happen this way just so the Lannisters could win at Blackwater, Robb would lose the chance to ever face Tywin in the field, and the Starks would be well and truly fucked. All of these things happen just so to doom Robb. Lysa's refusal to help her own family, Robb sending Theon away, Balon attacking someone who wanted to ally with him, Theon going off Balon's script to capture Winterfell, Theon murdering two boys and passing them off as Bran and Rickon, Edmure's folly at the fords, Roose being Roose, Catelyn releasing Jaime, Robb trading 4,000 knights for 50, and Karstark's upcoming betrayal, not one of these screw-ups or tragedies were impossible to recover from on their own, and if only two or three of them had gone differently, Robb might have still had a chance. Events had to happen all together just so to make the Red Wedding inevitable. I feel like this piling on is kind of the opposite of Ned's downfall, where his fate wasn't really sealed until his arrest, and it was as much by his own choices as by outside forces and betrayals. Even after he showed his hand to Cersei, he still had plenty of chances to save himself and/or his daughters which he just didn't take.

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

I've also never had much of an opinion one way or the other on theories that the Westerlings were somehow working with Tywin.  It may be every bit as simple as a very minor house with upward pretensions seeing a chance to marry a daughter off to the heir of a great house who would be king if his rebellion was successful and then having second thoughts as his chances faltered and the reality of what Tywin might do to them set in.

Yeah, I think this is the most likely scenario. Sybell sent Tywin a message after the fact, promising to keep Robb heirless, to cover her ass. Her reward was having Rolph named as the new Lord of Castamere, which is kind of a message in itself, isn't it? Her elder son died at the Red Wedding and I'm sure the Freys would have loved to kill Jeyne too if she were there, so it really doesn't look like Tywin considered the Spicers to be loyal and dutiful servants.

Of course, the smartest thing for Robb to do would have been to offer his bannermen as husbands for Jeyne instead of offering a different marriage for the Freys. But as Ned's son he was big on personal responsibility and wouldn't have passed off a girl he'd soiled to one of his men or not personally provide for any child she might be carrying. I also think he wanted to never sire a bastard, though maybe not to the extent Jon felt about it. I imagine he'd be worried how Catelyn wouldn't love a bastard grandson as much as an heir.

I'm always been fascinated that Catelyn came to the same conclusion Jon did about the direwolves being sent by the old gods, despite being a Sothron Seven follower and initially being anti-direwolf. The misinformation about Bran/Rickon is even more tragic by shaking Robb's faith in the wolves. I'm not a wolf is something Jon says in Dance, so Robb could have also been uncomfortable with wolf d

I really have very little sympathy for Rickard Karstark here. He's not just mad that Jaime is loose, he's mad because he wanted to murder Jaime. What's to say he wouldn't have snapped if Jaime was still a prisoner or if he was re-captured and returned to his cell? From the beginning, Robb had Jaime well guarded to prevent Karstark getting to him, so how can he be robbed of a vengeance Robb was never going to give him? That's my biggest gripe about how the show handled this, they had Robb basically side with Karstark, saying Catelyn did rob the north of vengeance. It's like they got that releasing Jaime was obviously wrong but completely missed just how it was a mistake. Killing Jaime would been even worse than freeing him. An actual prisoner exchange or peace could have helped Robb, the problem was that was never going to work the way Catelyn went about it.

Btw, what do we make of Catelyn saying Robb reminded her of Brandon more than Ned for the first time in that scene? Just that he was at his most hot-blooded then?

[nodorothyparker]

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Sybell sent Tywin a message after the fact, promising to keep Robb heirless, to cover her ass. Her reward was having Rolph named as the new Lord of Castamere, which is kind of a message in itself, isn't it? Her elder son died at the Red Wedding and I'm sure the Freys would have loved to kill Jeyne too if she were there, so it really doesn't look like Tywin considered the Spicers to be loyal and dutiful servants.

This does seem more likely than some of the Jeyne was a Tywin-laid honeypot from the get go theories I've seen.  I can absolutely buy that the Westerlings deliberately set unmarried maiden daughter Jeyne in front of a wounded vulnerable Robb, lord of Winterfell and declared king of the North, instead of sending in the maester in hopes that nature would take its course and the famous Stark honor would kick in and prompt him to do exactly what he did.  I mean, they had Robb convalescing in Jeyne's room in Jeyne's bed.  While the Crag doesn't appear to be one of the great castles of the Seven Kingdoms, I don't think we're supposed to think it's little better than a one-room cottar's cottage where it was that or the floor either.   

Catelyn's line about Robb reminding her of Brandon caught my attention too.  Various characters tell us that Brandon was more of a willful hothead while Ned tended more toward the serious and solemn and duty above all, but Robb's not acting like a hothead here.  Just forceful.  Which in turn makes me wonder how Ned so successfully ruled the North over some big and some fairly barbaric personalities if we're to believe he never so much as raised his voice or showed any real fire.  Roose is one we're told speaks so softly he forces people to strain to hear him, but the Boltons have that whole flaying people thing down as precedent. 

[Lady S.]

I think we did see Ned act forcefully though, almost finishing the job Brandon started on Littlefinger and standing up to Robert about Dany. Robb had to prove himself with the Greatjon and these other barbaric personalities as soon as he called the banners and he was supposed to be trying to be like his father as acting lord all through the first book. Was it just a particular tone of voice which sounded more like Brandon? I really wish we had more to go on about Brandon to know how Robb was like him. All we really know of him from Catelyn's PoV is about the duel and his death. And what we learn about him from Lady Dustin doesn't sound much like Robb.

[nodorothyparker]

I think that's what I mean.  We know that obviously Ned was able to do those things and he was well regarded by the vast majority under his rule.  He obviously wasn't a shrinking violet of a lord who sat in his castle all day and never had to take any forceful action.  Yet we're told here that when Robb raises his voice forcefully as a king would do he sounds like Brandon.  

In Jaime and Catelyn's prison cell conversation, he characterizes Brandon as having blood in his veins like him instead of ice water like Ned.  That of course gets Catelyn's back up and she insists that no he wasn't anything like Jaime, but again no real elaboration beyond that.  There's also the story of how Brandon pushed Ashara Dayne and Ned together at the tourney at Harrenhal, which seems to have been the starting point for the events that would eventually lead to her death and the rumors that she was Jon Snow's mother.  Still, when Barristan later reminisces about Ashara, the writing feels purposely vague about which Stark son he thought she was actually in love with.

[benteen]

In her re-read of A Game of Thrones, Avaleigh writes about a scene where Robb waves his sword around when Catelyn raises her suspicions about the Lannisters and Ser Rodrik tells him to not act like a child and not to wave a sword around unless he means to use it.  I also recall an early scene where the Starks and Baratheon kids are in the training yard.  Robb wants to fight Joffrey with a real sword and isn't there a reference that they have to hold him back from going after Joffrey?

[Lady S.]

13 hours ago, benteen said:

In her re-read of A Game of Thrones, Avaleigh writes about a scene where Robb waves his sword around when Catelyn raises her suspicions about the Lannisters and Ser Rodrik tells him to not act like a child and not to wave a sword around unless he means to use it.  I also recall an early scene where the Starks and Baratheon kids are in the training yard.  Robb wants to fight Joffrey with a real sword and isn't there a reference that they have to hold him back from going after Joffrey?

Joff wanted to fight with steel, even though it sounds like Robb was beating him with practice swords. Ser Rodrik wouldn't allow it so Joff made fun of the Starks, and Theon was holding Robb back. 

I do agree that there were times where I think displayed more "wolf blood" than I imagine Ned had as a teenager, but he isn't really doing that here. So I'm curious why this particular moment was the first time Robb reminded Catelyn of Brandon, but I guess we don't really have enough to go on.

[Avaleigh]

Jon II

Jon is watching the mammoths and giants that are apart of Mance's army, and is impressed by their size and number. Tormund speaks to an older giant called Mag the Mighty and makes him laugh. Jon asks if they're speaking in the Old Tongue and Tormund confirms that they are. Jon asks what they were talking about and Tormund says that Mag was asking him if Jon is one of his daughters. Tormund thinks it's possible that Mag has never seen a man without a beard before. 

Tormund entertains Jon with stories about his supposed encounters with a female giant and a female bear. He asks Jon if men on the Wall are castrated and wonders why Jon and Ygritte haven't had sex yet. Tormund says that it's obvious that Ygritte wants to and Jon looks away as his face goes red. Jon wonders what he can say to Tormund and eventually says that he's too young to marry. He explains that he doesn't want to dishonor Ygritte since she helped save his life and doesn't want her to give birth to a bastard. Tormund doesn't see what the big deal is and says that Jon and Ygritte are free people who can do as they like. He also points out that a child who is born a bastard isn't any different than a child who is born to a married couple. Jon insists that he won't father a bastard and Tormund asks why Jon bothered to steal Ygritte if he doesn't want her. Tormund warns Jon that if he doesn't start using his member it will grow smaller and smaller until he can no longer find it.

Jon had no answer for that. Small wonder that the Seven Kingdoms thought the free folk scarcely human. They have no laws, no honor, not even simple decency. They steal endlessly from each other, breed like beasts, prefer rape to marriage, and fill the world with baseborn children. Yet he was growing fond of Tormund Giantsbane, great bag of wind and lies though he was. Longspear as well. And Ygritte... no, I will not think about Ygritte. 

It's taken Mance years to assemble this wildling host and Jon is thinking about how he'll kill Mance if he has to, but knows that he won't take any joy it. He also knows that he'll be killed if he manages it but thinks it will be worth it if it means protecting everyone he's ever known. He prays that the old gods will somehow spare him from having to do this.

Mance's army is undisciplined and only one wildling in a hundred is mounted. Jon thinks that the Old Bear should be able to cut through them and thinks that once Mance is brought down that the wildling army will fall apart. He thinks if Mance falls that the Wall should be safe for another hundred years.

Jon thinks about how much Ygritte reminds him of Arya and Ygritte begins singing a song called "The Last of the Giants." Tormund and Longspear join her in singing and Tormund's children soon join in as well. Others join in until everyone is singing. By the time the song is over, Ygritte has tears on her cheeks.

Jon asks Ygritte why she's crying but before she can fully reply, Jon is attacked by an eagle and is knocked off of his horse. For a moment Jon thinks that he might have lost his eye, but it's only a bad cut. Tormund tells Rattleshirt to call off the eagle and Rattleshirt says that he's there to bring Jon to see Mance. 

Jon wonders if it's possible for a bird to hate and thinks that some part of Orell has remained inside of the eagle after Jon killed him.

They ride a couple of miles to see Mance and Jon sees that the Fist of the First Men is in view. He wonders if the Old Bear has begun to attack. When they reach the outside of the ringwall they start seeing dead horses and dogs. They find Mance in one of the tents that still remain and Mance tells Jon that if he wants to keep his eye, he'll tell them how many men of the Night's Watch were camped at the Fist. Jon admits that there were three hundred men and Mance tells him that he shouldn't have lied to him.

Mance continues to question Jon, and Jon answers truthfully but struggles with feeling like a turncloak. He admits that the Old Bear led the command and says that Bowen Marsh is holding Castle Black. Mance thinks this is good news for his side says that Bowen knows more about counting swords than actually using them.

Mance tells Varamyr to have his wolves go after the wights so that they aren't surprised by an attack. He wants the patrols doubled and wants to make sure that those on patrol are carrying torches and flint.

Rattleshirt is itching to kill Jon for lying, but Ygritte comes to Jon's defense and says that he can't be blamed for trying to protect the men who were once his brothers. Jon says that he wears Mance's cloak now and Ygritte claims that she and Jon have a sexual relationship and uses this as further proof that Jon is no longer a man of the Night's Watch. 

Mance orders Jon and Ygritte to go with Styr and Jarl over the Wall. He says it's time for Jon to prove that he's really with them. Styr isn't happy about this and warns Mance that Jon's heart could 'still be black'. Mance tells Styr that he can cut Jon's heart out if that ends up being the case. 

Rattleshirt is pissed and tells Ygritte that she'd better not be lying. Jon tells Rattleshirt to back off and draws his sword. Rattleshirt tells Jon that he isn't so tough without his wolf around to back him up, and Ygritte points out that Ghost is back. Rattleshirt immediately backs off and curses as he leaves.

Once Jon and Ygritte are alone, he tells her that she didn't have to lie for him. Ygritte says that she just stretched the truth a little and tells him to find another place for Ghost to sleep that night so that they can finally have sex. 

[Lady S.]

Lol at Jon faking being called away to get away from Ygritte.

I wonder what the free folk's position on man/man love is. Seems like the easiest answer to Tormund's hectoring would be that Jon thought Ygritte was a man when he "stole" her and lost interest when he realized she wasn't.

[nodorothyparker]

I realize the show had financial constraints to consider when they introduced the wilding camp in the third season, but I'll admit to being a little sorry we didn't get to see just how fantastical the wilding gathering really was with dozens of giants on mammoths, Varamyr on his giant snow bear, and the clans who pulled walrus bone chariots with wild dogs.  Jon is like a wide-eyed kid reacting to all of the things he thought only existed in Old Nan's stories and seeing a bunch on people on foot in mostly matching pelts and parkas just wasn't quite the same. I really like the little snippets we get of the wilding culture and how they have their own take on the Wall and where the rest of the continent has relegated them.

There's something a little heartwrenching about how hard Jon is clinging to his Nights Watch vows and all the standards of the Seven Kingdoms he's judging the wildings by when those same standards have branded him a bastard and cut him off from a lot of the niceties of that society as a result.  His struggle with his growing attraction to Ygritte really gets me and reminds for the 417th time in this series how it's not a good idea to be letting someone swear away their entire life before they're old enough to really fully appreciate what it is they're giving up.  Because here for probably the first time in his entire life, Jon isn't the poor sad lord's bastard avoiding or likely being simultaneously ignored by all the serving girls of Winterfell or the girls of the winter town because he has no claim to anything and can only father another bastard.  He's attracted to a girl who clearly wants him and he has no way to frame it except through vows that we know that half the men of the Nights Watch give little thought to every time they visit Mole Town.

The wildings seem pretty blase about the thought of their dead comrade Orell being permanently warged into a bird.  Other than Jon wondering briefly if Sam is still alive now or what he might be, no one in the entire discussion at the carnage left at the Fist about Watch numbers is open in acknowledging that a fair number of those men are likely now wights wandering nearby.  Except for the command to double the patrols.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

There's something a little heartwrenching about how hard Jon is clinging to his Nights Watch vows and all the standards of the Seven Kingdoms he's judging the wildings by when those same standards have branded him a bastard and cut him off from a lot of the niceties of that society as a result.  His struggle with his growing attraction to Ygritte really gets me and reminds for the 417th time in this series how it's not a good idea to be letting someone swear away their entire life before they're old enough to really fully appreciate what it is they're giving up.  Because here for probably the first time in his entire life, Jon isn't the poor sad lord's bastard avoiding or likely being simultaneously ignored by all the serving girls of Winterfell or the girls of the winter town because he has no claim to anything and can only father another bastard.  He's attracted to a girl who clearly wants him and he has no way to frame it except through vows that we know that half the men of the Nights Watch give little thought to every time they visit Mole Town.

Well, his shame about his dishonorable birth is a big part of the reason he was attracted to the Night's Watch. The poor kid has a lot of sexual baggage related to his bastardy. Which again, I don't think Ned really helped by refusing to deal with Jon's questions about his mother or the tension with Catelyn, and then agreeing to send Jon off to Castle Black without explaining the true situation there or offering any alternatives. I don't doubt Ned loved him as much as he loved Robb, but Jon had plenty of reason to feel his birth was his most noble and honorable father's greatest shame, the only time he dishonored himself which he couldn't even bear to acknowledge by speaking about it. Even without going into the whole Lyanna story, why couldn't Jon know that his mother loved him? Why couldn't Ned reassure him that he had a right to be proud of his Stark blood even without the name? I think there were any number of things that could have made Jon feel better regardless of R+L=J.

I think Jon could have enjoyed female attention before this. A commoner would never stand a chance with Robb and would be lucky to land the Bastard of Winterfell. But he would have never acted on any chances because he could only get married unless Ned arranged it. Even in this world, I wouldn't think a 14-going-on-15 year-old virgin would be that unheard of. 

I feel pretty conflicted about the issues with Jon/Ygritte. He is clearly already developing an attraction to and feelings for her, so it's not like he doesn't want to be with her, but he has a right to abstain for whatever reason, a right he can't freely exercise with the undercover mission Qhorin gave him. Jon even has one perfectly good reason for not wanting to father a child or let Ygritte fall for him since he knows this can only only end in heartbreak when he has to leave her and risking a baby coming into that would make the mess even worse. He doesn't really choose to finally act on his desires, the matter is effectively taken out of his hands at the end of the chapter. Ygritte's complete lack of boundaries would probably squick us out if the genders were reversed, but she genuinely believes he's already claimed her. He's not terrified at the thought of being with her the way Dany was scared of Drogo or Sansa was scared when she married Tyrion. He wasn't totally free to refuse her, but I don't think it was fear of Ygritte killing him or having Mance kill him if he rejected her advances outright that made him go along with her plan after she vouched for him with Mance when he was caught in a lie. There may even have been a measure of relief about letting her take the lead feeling he had no real choice, therefore it wasn't his fault when he gave into urges he'd been repressing all throughout puberty. It was just a messed up situation all around with Jon's sexual hang-ups and his undercover mission.

[nodorothyparker]

Yeah, I'll agree that Ned's refusal to even try to come up with a plausible story he could tell Jon and then Catelyn didn't help matters any, both in Jon's own issues with being a bastard and in Catelyn's open loathing and resentment of him.  On some level, I get it.  The whole you're really my dead sister's son by the dead crown prince of an overthrown regime and my bestie, the new king, will almost certainly murder you if he ever finds out* does make it tough, but good gods, Ned, tell the kid something.  Tell him she loved him and died knowing Ned would do his very best to protect him and keep him safe.  Tell him he's every bit as much of a Stark as the trueborn kids.  Tell him anything at all rather than years and years of refusing to speak of it as if his existence was proof of your life's greatest shame, which you have to know can't be doing the poor kid's head any good.  

We don't get the show scene in the first book of Ned promising that "next time we see each other I'll tell you about your mother" so I end up wondering what if anything Ned ever planned to tell Jon about it all.

The thing about Jon and Ygritte and all the chapters about the wildings is that they have their own ideas about male-female relations and consent that they all understand.  "Stealing" a woman is claiming her with all that it implies. They believe Jon was stealing Ygritte, so what's the problem?  Even Tormund's absurd story about being husband to a bear contains elements of this, where he's telling it for laughs how hard the woman/bear put up a fight and it was just the greatest thing ever.  Jon initially finds this fairly offputting as he's still looking at them through the lens of what he knows is considered acceptable behavior south of the Wall, but at the same time he's clearly attracted to Ygritte and wanting to act on it while still not completely abandoning his vows.  And now she's told everyone they are anyway, so ...  Yeah, I can see where he's getting stuck.

*Yes, I'm aware that R+L=J still isn't officially canon in the books, but at this point I'm accepting that it is and if it isn't George needs to get busy and finish a book to tell me so himself.

[John Potts]

It does seem odd that Ned didn't tell Jon that his mother had died (which would be actually true) - it would also have the advantage of not requiring him to besmirch the honour of any living woman by having him say, "Yeah, totally tapped that!" Wasn't there a point in the war where he was defeated and had to run? He could probably imply that Jon's mum was "taken by the Targaryens" at that point (also sorta true, though he'd be lying about the timeline) and when he next saw her, she was dead (again, true-ish - he did see Lyanna alive, briefly).

[Lady S.]

20 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

We don't get the show scene in the first book of Ned promising that "next time we see each other I'll tell you about your mother" so I end up wondering what if anything Ned ever planned to tell Jon about it all.

Honestly, I think Ned just wanted to ignore the secret for as long as possible, and avoided even considering telling anyone. We keep looking for ironclad reasons why he had to make the choices he did wrt Jon and Catelyn, but people don't always have correct and rational reasons for making big choices. And unloading something huge gets harder and harder emotionally the longer you're holding it in. Ned's PoV shows him as pretty traumatized by everything that happened to his family in the Robert's Rebellion era, and those memories of Lyanna's last words were something he was trying to suppress though Robert's behavior just wouldn't let him. I think Ned wished he could just forget Jon's origins and keep loving Robert as his best friend, and facing up to the reality of the situation was too painful for him. 

I can sort of understood why he never shared the secret with Cat even after he grew to know and love her (though I don't buy the idea that she'd sell Jon out at the first opportunity rather than let treason endanger her own children, nor that her not being a bitch to Jon would set suspicious tongues wagging and no one would buy that he was really Ned's bastard), but I do think Jon deserved to know the truth before swearing his whole life away. If he wasn't old enough to know the truth at almost 15, how was he old enough to join a celibate military order at 15? Ned could have either told him the truth or found a temporary home for him with a trusted bannerman. None of which is to say that Ned was a bad father, just that while his decisions in this matter all stemmed from R+L=J, it doesn't mean they were all the right choices, and I think Ned's trauma and his psychological issues were more at play than just his his honor and his duty to keep a promise to Lyanna.

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

It does seem odd that Ned didn't tell Jon that his mother had died (which would be actually true) - it would also have the advantage of not requiring him to besmirch the honour of any living woman by having him say, "Yeah, totally tapped that!" Wasn't there a point in the war where he was defeated and had to run? He could probably imply that Jon's mum was "taken by the Targaryens" at that point (also sorta true, though he'd be lying about the timeline) and when he next saw her, she was dead (again, true-ish - he did see Lyanna alive, briefly).

I think you're thinking of Robert's defeat by Randyll Tarly. Or else when Ned had to smuggle himself from the Eyrie to Winterfell while Jon Arryn and Robert were subduing the royalists in the Vale. But, yeah, there is no good reason not to even tell the kid whether his mother was alive or dead. 

Anyways...the wildling rape fantasy courtship ritual doesn't sound to me like a huge improvement over the lack of clear consent south of the Wall. What happens with girls who can't fight the guy off or don't have brothers or friends around to help them? The free folk actually seem more civilized than the Dothraki, but I wouldn't want to live in any society which functions as survival of the physically strongest. The other wildlings may disdain Craster but his incestuous rape factory and Varamyr using his beasts to exact female tribute show the dark side of an absence of any law and order, just as Ramsay's "marriage" to Lady Hornwood and no one giving a shit about Lollys's gang-rape epitomize the problems with the feudal culture below the Wall.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Lady S.

[benteen]

Not to mention the Wildlings would kidnap women south of the Wall as well.  Mors Umber's only daughter was abducted by a Wildling. 

I agree, Ned could have just told Jon that his mother was dead and he would have been telling the truth.

[Lady S.]

26 minutes ago, benteen said:

Not to mention the Wildlings would kidnap women south of the Wall as well.  Mors Umber's only daughter was abducted by a Wildling. 

That's something I've always wondered as I'd think a person would much harder to carry away than an inanimate valuable. What is the return journey like? Do they tie the women up and put them in a boat? Or drag them on a rope through the mountains west of the wall?

[Avaleigh]

Sansa II

A seamstress is taking Sansa's measurements for a new gown, courtesy of Cersei. Sansa is skeptical that Cersei would be so generous and wonders if Margaery or the Queen of Thorns are somehow responsible. The seamstress tells Sansa that the dress will be completed before Joffrey's wedding.

Margaery has taken Sansa into her circle of ladies and Sansa is grateful for how fun and friendly they've all been. They've been welcoming and she feels like they treat her as though they've known her for all of her life. One of the ladies gives her lessons on the high harp, and there's even a young girl who reminds her of a less fierce version of Arya. They eat lemon cakes and drink honeyed wine, they play music and games, and sing songs. Megga mentions to Sansa that she likes to play a kissing game with her cousin Alla. Sansa wonders what Megga would think of kissing the Hound and remembers how the Hound kissed her, demanded a song from her, and threatened to kill her.

When Megga gushes about how sexy she thinks Joffrey's lips are and the girls start giggling about Elinor's betrothed, Sansa decides that Margaery's cousins are silly children.

They are children, Sansa thought. They are silly little girls, even Elinor. They’ve never seen a battle, they've never seen a man die, they know nothing. Their dreams were full of songs and stories, the way hers had been before Joffrey cut her father’s head off. Sansa pitied them. Sansa envied them.

Sansa thinks that Margaery is different from her cousins and thinks she sees some of the Queen of Thorns in her. Margaery takes Sansa hawking, calls her 'Sister', and continues to find ways to bring Willas into the conversation. Sansa has always wanted a sister like Margaery and decides that she can't let her new sister marry Joffrey without knowing what kind of person he is. She tells Margaery that she can't marry Joffrey and says that Joffrey will hurt her.

Margaery is confident that Joffrey won't hurt her but tells Sansa that it was brave of her to give her the warning. Margaery explains to Sansa that she'll have the constant protection of her brother Loras now that Loras has been named to the Kingsguard. Sansa thinks that Joffrey might restrain himself for a time but feels certain that he'll show his claws towards Margaery sooner or later. 

Sansa tells Dontos about the plan for her to marry Willas, and Dontos is horrified and tells her that she can't. He says that the Tyrells are only 'Lannisters with flowers.' Dontos tries to kiss Sansa and reminds her that she only needs to wait until the wedding and then he'll take her away from King's Landing just as he promised. Sansa pulls away from Dontos and tells him that he didn't take her away when she asked him to and now she doesn't need him. She says that she'll be safe with Willas in Highgarden. Dontos tells her that the Tyrells are only interested in her claim to Winterfell and again asks her not to abandon their plan. Sansa leaves Dontos in the godswood and hasn't gone back since.

Sansa thinks about her claim to Winterfell and feels that it shouldn't matter since Robb is alive and will eventually have children of his own. She also doubts that Willas would be interested in Winterfell since he has Highgarden. She pictures herself with Willas and imagines that if she has sons that she'll name them Eddard, Brandon, and Rickon. In her dreams she imagines her children to look like her dead brothers, and sometimes there's even a daughter who looks like Arya.

Sansa has a dream that she's still being forced to marry Joffrey and that he turns into Ilyn Payne on their wedding night. She wakes up and thinks about how she doesn't want Margaery to suffer under Joffrey, but also fears what will happen if the Tyrells decide not to go through with the marriage. She wonders if Margaery even believes her about Joffrey since Joffrey makes an effort to play the role of the courteous knight for her as he once did for Sansa. 

Sansa decides that she's going light a candle to the Mother for Margaery and possibly one to the Warrior for Loras.

She thinks about how she'll wear her new dress to the wedding and hopes that she won't spill anything on it at the feast since this is likely the dress that Willas will see her in when she goes to Highgarden. Sansa thinks that even if Willas is interested in her claim to Winterfell that he might come to love her for herself eventually. She wonders how long it will take for her gown to be ready and thinks that she can hardly wait to wear it.

[Avaleigh]

I fear for the Tyrell cousins when I consider that finale. 

At least Sansa is having an okay time right now where she isn't being terrorized, save the way gross Dontos is always trying to kiss her. 

I want to shake her for mentioning Willas to Dontos though. 

I like how she wants to name her children after her father and brothers. 

The Tyrells are putting a lot of faith in Loras regarding Margaery's safety. 

[WearyTraveler]

48 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

1) I fear for the Tyrell cousins when I consider that finale. 

2) At least Sansa is having an okay time right now where she isn't being terrorized, save the way gross Dontos is always trying to kiss her. 

3) I want to shake her for mentioning Willas to Dontos though. 

4) I like how she wants to name her children after her father and brothers. 

5) The Tyrells are putting a lot of faith in Loras regarding Margaery's safety. 

1) Yeah, they might be toast when all is said and done.

2) True, I remember thinking that it was nice that she wasn't afraid all the time.

3) Soooooooooooooooooooooooo much!!!!

4) That was very sweet.  I also liked that there was a girl named Arya, sometimes.  In Arya chapters we also see her thinking of Sansa with none of the animosity that existed between them before Ned died.  This is why I never bought into the theories that Sansa and Arya are heading for some kind of confrontation where Arya will kills her.

5) I think that was the answer they gave Sansa, not their real plan.  I think that ever since Olenna found out that Joffrey was a monster, she decided he had to die and that she had been looking into how to accomplish that.  It had to be after the wedding, though, so Marge could still be Queen.
_______________________

This chapter reminded me of one of the reasons I got frustrated with the character at times.  On the one hand she thinks that Margaery's cousins are children because they don't know as much as she does.  Her thoughts in that passage reflect her learning, her becoming wiser from all she has experienced.  She seems to be more mature and getting smarter. On the other hand, the chapter ends with her frivolous thoughts about how she can't wait to try on a new dress that Cersei (CERSEI!!!!) is giving her.  GAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!

Haven't you learned that nothing good ever comes from Cersei, Sansa?  I mean, I can see her getting fond of he Tyrells and trusting them because they have given her no reason whatsoever to think they have any intention to cause her harm.  She told them what a psycho Joffrey is and they have kept her secret.  But Cersei?! The woman who ordered Lady killed? The woman who abandoned her and everyone else when she thought the city was lost? Why does Sansa trusts her again and again? It's baffling!

Edited June 30, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

5) I think that was the answer they gave Sansa, not their real plan.  I think that ever since Olenna found out that Joffrey was a monster, she decided he had to die and that she had been looking into how to accomplish that.  It had to be after the wedding, though, so Marge could still be Queen.

That was my reading too. Sansa thinks Marg is older and smarter so maybe there's something she's missing. There is, because Joffrey will never survive the wedding night. If Sansa could see the problem of Loras vs. Joffrey, I'm sure the Tyrells could. Littlefinger even says that they had to kill him before Loras became the new Kingslayer and got himself killed. I doubt Marg actually believes in the fairy tale of Naerys guarded by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight either, not if she actually has some of Olenna in her. The World Book makes it clear he couldn't really do much to keep Aegon the Unworthy from hurting their sister, with Aegon refusing to stop having sex with her after she and the maesters believed her life would be endangered by another pregnancy/childbirth.

I don't think Sansa is actually trusting Cersei again, though. The idea that Cersei would want her to look nice for Joffrey's wedding sounds perfectly reasonable. It's a royal Lannister extravaganza, Sansa doesn't believe Cersei is being generous out of the goodness of her heart.  Her opinion really hasn't wavered since Ned's death.

Sansa's also growing up by thinking Willas's bum leg doesn't matter, trying not to think of him as Loras because she knows that's unfair, and just hoping that he can grow to love her as they have children together even if the marriage is just for her claim. The Tyrells do have a lot in common with the Lannisters, but assuming Willas is actually as swell as his family claims, being his wife still sounds a hell of a lot better than being Littlefinger's Cat-substitute. The problem is this would pretty much mean never seeing her own family again, which is something Sansa's understandably not thinking about. Her chances of reuniting with Robb and Cat must have felt slim anyway, but what she doesn't realize is the Tyrells wanting her claim must mean they take it as a foregone conclusion that Robb would die soon. Even without knowledge of the Red Wedding, an impartial observer would see Robb's cause as doomed now. Even if he fathered an heir, an orphaned baby of a defeated rebel would be in a pretty precarious position.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter's innocent enough, but it's a tough one when you know what's coming.  Next time we see Sansa, she's going to be dragged off to be married against her will and those friendly Tyrells she likes so much are going to drop her like a rock the moment she and her claim to the North are off the table.

I have to assume too that if Sansa and later Littlefinger can already see coming conflict when Joffrey inevitably mistreats Margaery that the Tyrells are already weighing their options, but of course they're not going to tell Sansa that.  Part of me is always a little surprised in this story that they didn't wait until Margaery was at least pregnant with an heir before bumping Joffrey off, but maybe they felt like he was too volatile to risk waiting that long and being a queen to a living king would have probably been preferable to a very long regency where they would have been continually fighting the Lannisters over control of the child.  Still, that left them open to the different risk that they wouldn't be able to strongarm the Lannisters into a replacement marriage with the much more pliable but also much younger Tommen.  They're pretty cocky here thinking they can manage all that and snag the North through Sansa too.

Sansa in this chapter is such a heartbreakingly frustrating mix of knowing and naivety.   She recognizes that the Tyrell girls haven't really seen anything bad yet to disabuse them of their fairy tales but she's spinning plenty of her own with a man she hasn't even met to the point of naming their hypothetical children.  I think she's fully aware that she shouldn't trust Cersei, but there is the distraction of new clothes she badly needs and she probably isn't having much trouble convincing herself to take it at face value that letting her wander around in ill-fitting ragged clothing as a royal hostage likely isn't going to reflect well on the Lannisters at the upcoming festivities either.

In Cousin Elinor we get another example of a noble-born girl getting to marry where she chooses.  Apparently the trick is to be low enough on the family tree not to matter where succession or claims are involved.

Edited July 1, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Part of me is always a little surprised in this story that they didn't wait until Margaery was at least pregnant with an heir before bumping Joffrey off, but maybe they felt like he was too volatile to risk waiting that long and being a queen to a living king would have probably been preferable to a very long regency where they would have been continually fighting the Lannisters over control of the child.  Still, that left them open to the different risk that they wouldn't be able to strongarm the Lannisters into a replacement marriage with the much more pliable but also much younger Tommen. 

I don't think that was ever much of a risk, the Tyrells wanted the throne but the Lannisters were the party who actually needed this alliance. Tywin was in no position to refuse the people providing the troops, food, and gold to keep the capital running and keep a Lannister on the throne. It's the same reason they're confident about whisking Sansa off to Highgarden for a secret wedding. Waiting for Marg to get pregnant would have the far bigger risk imo, since not every woman gets pregnant right away, even young women. She could be married for years to Joffrey just waiting and the Lannisters would indeed fight her tooth and nail for the regency.

[nodorothyparker]

True enough, and it's not like there were a plethora of other good queen candidates available among any of the other great houses that also could have supplied the resources the Tyrells did.  I just always find myself wondering about the conversations that are going on behind the scenes, about whether it was even up for debate.  

The risk in their plan is that book Tommen is only 8.  They're going to have to wait years before the marriage can even be consummated and is considered legally binding.  Anything could happen in that time to potentially invalidate it.  Before all the stuff with the High Sparrow and Cersei's trying to frame Margaery as a whore in FFC, Cersei and Jaime do have that argument where he points this out, I think to throw her off track of trying to derail the Tyrell alliance right there and then.  They're not expecting any of this, of course, but I doubt they were expecting that murdering Joffrey would destabilize the Lannister family to the point that the most irrational member of the family would be left running the show either.

[Lady S.]

Yes, I think all of their plans were based around Tywin still being in charge. The Marg/Tommen union would have had a pretty good chance of going smoothly if Tywin was around imo, especially since he was planning to take the regency from Cersei and send her away anyway.

The other issue with Marg/Joff, which just occurred to me is that she wouldn't just be waiting for a baby, the baby would need to be a son to properly secure the throne. Otherwise, there's a good chance Tommen inherits anyway. It's unclear (in the books at least) if the new dynasty followed the Targs' brothers before daughters order, but there's nothing saying they didn't either. The show actually had Septa Mordane tell Sansa that Tommen would inherit in the event she only gave Joffrey girl children.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Arya III

Arya tells Gendry that they're traveling the wrong way if they're trying to make it to Riverrun, but Gendry thinks the outlaws just know a shorter way to get there. Arya thinks he's wrong but decides not to argue since she feels that Gendry is the only true friend she has left.

Hot Pie decided to stay back at the inn and become the baker there, and Arya admits to herself that she misses him even though he used to get on her nerves. Hot Pie seems like he's going to miss Arya too and makes it clear that he wants her to come back to visit the inn once the war is over. Arya apologizes to Hot Pie for breaking is nose that time and she punches him on the shoulder after he addresses her as 'my lady' and asks to kiss her hand. 

Arya misses Hot Pie, but chatting with Harwin makes up for it a bit. She tells him about how she saw his father Hullen die in the stables at the Red Keep. Harwin comments on how his father always said he'd die in a stable only he imagined it would be a death by horse rather than death by lions. Arya tells Harwin about her escape from King's Landing but she leaves out the part about how she killed the stable boy. She thinks telling Harwin about that would be almost like telling her own father.

Arya is still saying the names on her list every night and sometimes she takes out the coin that Jaqen gave her and remembers the way he was able to change his face with a wave of his hand.

Harwin tells Arya that of the twenty men who rode with Beric Dondarrion on her father's orders, only six men remain. Beric and his men road into a trap set for them by Tywin who initially thought or hoped that Ned would be accompanying them to deal with Gregor Clegane. Harwin says that Jaime didn't know about his father's plan to trap Ned when he attacked Ned in the streets of King's Landing over the matter of Tyrion's abduction. According to Harwin, Tywin was hoping to capture Ned and trade him for Tyrion. Arya remembers that Jaime killed Jory.

During the attack on Beric and his men, Beric is gravely injured by a lance and they all think he's going to die, but Thoros prays by his side all night and the next morning, not only is Beric alive, but he's stronger.

Harwin talks about how they went from pursuing outlaws to becoming outlaws after Robert's death. This caused some division among the men and some wanted to yield, but Beric insisted that they were still the King's men.

There was some wanted to yield then, but Lord Beric wouldn’t hear of it. We were still king’s 

men, he said, and these were the king’s people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for 
Robert, we would fight for them, until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we 
fought something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A 
few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men fieldhands and fiddlers 
and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons. Men of all sorts, and women too, 
children, dogs...

During dinner at an abandoned village, Arya learns that Jaime has escaped from Riverrun. Some of the men find it impossible to believe that Jaime somehow managed to escape the dungeons and one of the men thinks that Thoros needs to be told about this news immediately. The talk turns to how Beric would love to capture and presumably hang Jaime.

Arya falls asleep and dreams of Winterfell. She's knee deep in mud trying to get to the castle gates but can never seem to reach them. Wolves surround her in the dream and when she looks at them she remembers the taste of blood.

When they're traveling the next day, Arya tells everyone that they're going the wrong way and Lem bluntly tells her that they aren't taking her to Riverrun. Arya thinks about how close she was to getting there and thinks about how she should have just let the outlaws take their horses. Tom tells Arya not to look so hurt and swears that they aren't going to harm her, but she calls him a liar and makes it clear that she doesn't trust him. She tells the Greenbeard in charge that he'll be rewarded if he takes her to Riverrun, but Greenbeard explains that she's too valuable for him to not hand her over to Beric so that he can decide what should be done with her. Greenbeard guesses that Beric will likely have Arya returned to her mother in Riverrun. Greenbeard says that they take all of their highborn captives to Beric.

Arya freaks out at hearing the word captive and instantly decides to ride off. Three of the men go after her and she leads leads them on a good chase, but Harwin eventually catches her. He compliments her skill at riding and says that she rides a horse as well her aunt Lyanna once did. 

Arya is hurt that Harwin is the one taking her back and tells him that she thought he was her father's man. Harwin says that her father is dead and he's Lord Beric's man now. He feels the other men have become his brothers and says that he and his brothers the only ones who are fighting for the smallfolk. He mentions that he doesn't mean Robb any harm but argues that Robb has an entire army while the smallfolk only have Lord Beric and his men.

Arya thinks about how she should never have let these people know her real identity. They would never have been interested in her if she'd continued going by Squab or Arry or Nan and curses the fact that she's back to being a helpless little lady. 

Harwin asks Arya if she'll return peacefully or if it'll be necessary to tie her up. Arya agrees to return peacefully and thinks to herself that she'll be peaceful...for now.

[Avaleigh]

At the risk of being controversial, I have to say that I definitely have mixed feelings on the BWB. I respect their goal and I like the idea of somebody looking out for the common people, but to me they seem like they're only willing to help a common person if it happens to suit their purpose. I guess it's better than not having anyone to look out for them at all, but overall I feel like these guys are pretty shady.

They were totally going to steal from three nearly defenseless kids and that isn't a sign to me that these are exactly great guys. They didn't initially care why the kids might need the horses or that they were running from someone or consider that they might be further endangering them. They decided that they needed the horses more than these common looking people and were going to steal them because they believe their needs are more important. I don't see how that's all that different from a nobleman taking property from someone on their land because they need it for their own purposes, they feel they have the right, and there isn't anyone to stop them. The BWB is supposedly defending the common people but it feels like common people don't have anyone to protect them from the BWB.

They were going to rob Brienne too and set her up even after she overpaid for the horses, so even if a person does pay them, supports them in that way, and leaves them in peace to do their thing, that still isn't enough for the BWB. And we know the innkeeper told them about the money and skiff he got for the horses, so I didn't get the impression that he kept all Brienne paid him for himself. Maybe the couple in the inn doesn't count as being a part of the BWB but based on what Harwin is saying about all of these people joining them, it seems like the inn keeping couple qualify. 

Another thing that irritates me is how they're still acting under the name of Robert even though Robert is dead and *Ned* is the one who put them on that path in the first place. So Harwin is okay with the BWB acting in dead Robert's name but he can't just let Arya go and square it with himself emotionally by using similar logic? 

It seems to me that since Harwin isn't currently with Robb that he could make it up by either allowing Arya to escape or by at least attempting to reassure her by telling her that he's going to try to encourage Beric to allow him and a few others to escort her to Riverrun. The way he just washes his hands of her by saying that Ned is dead didn't sit well with me and further speaks against this (IMO) ludicrous idea that show Sansa put forth when she said that northerners are more loyal men than their southron counterparts. Not from what I've seen. The south and the north both have their super loyal people and peole who are anything but. There's no proof that I've seen that northerners are more loyal than the average person.

Another thing that is frustrating is that they're behaving as though the Lannisters are the only ones hurting the common people. We saw what Brienne and Jaime have seen regarding northerners openly punishing common people from the Riverlands for servicing Lannister soldiers, but to hear these guys talk the Lannisters are the only ones who are treating the smallfolk with brutal savageness and that clearly isn't the case. Common people fear both sides and multiple characters have made comments to indicate this. It would be better to me if the BWB came across as more impartial and just wanted to help all common people. 

Then there's the fact that Lady Stoneheart is coming and is only going to make things worse, so I probably have that in the back of my head too.

Again I have the thought that if the Wall were a more flexible place that the BWB could do a lot of good there. All of these displaced and burned out people and all of those castles that have fallen into disrepair. I feel like the sparrows and various members of the BWB would have been great to send up there and bring the Wall back to something closer to the way it used to be when it was at its height.

[benteen]

I like your idea for the Wall a lot with the sparrows and the BWB.  The rigidity of the Wall really does hurt matters.  Not to mention people probably don't want to freeze their ass off at the Wall. ;)  Still, there's a lot of land up North and a lot of castles that could be put to go use.

I had forgotten some of these negative traits about the Brotherhood in the book.  I've been annoyed at how the show has portrayed them as religious fanatics first, protectors of the smallfolk second.  But maybe the show's portrayal wasn't that off after all.

It ultimately saved her life but I never liked how the Brotherhood kept Arya against her will.

Excellent point about some of the crimes that Northern soldiers are committing in the Riverlands.  Damn, the Riverlands can't catch a break from anyone!

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It seems to me that since Harwin isn't currently with Robb that he could make it up by either allowing Arya to escape or by at least attempting to reassure her by telling her that he's going to try to encourage Beric to allow him and a few others to escort her to Riverrun. The way he just washes his hands of her by saying that Ned is dead didn't sit well with me and further speaks against this (IMO) ludicrous idea that show Sansa put forth when she said that northerners are more loyal men than their southron counterparts. Not from what I've seen. The south and the north both have their super loyal people and peole who are anything but. There's no proof that I've seen that northerners are more loyal than the average person.

Not that I think this was a good decision, but in either the epilogue or Feast, it's revealed that Harwin is responsible for the birth of Lady Stoneheart because he begged Thoros to resurrect Catelyn until Beric gave his life to her when Thoros refused. So he must have still had a lot of feelings for House Stark to be that affected by the Red Wedding and finding his lady dead. There are southerners like Davos and Brienne who have great loyalty for those they're sworn to, but I do think we've seen more people loyal to the Starks than anyone else. Part of that is that they're the heroes we're following in this story, but we also are shown that Ned cared about his people more than any other lord, as you noted in the book one re-read in the chapter with Jory's death. Sansa's line was laughable bullshit on the show, but the North Remembers actually did mean something in the books.

[nodorothyparker]

Harwin talking about the trap Tywin and the Mountain laid for them in the Riverlands that got most of the Winterfell men killed is interesting, just as it is to contemplate that Jaime being out of the loop on that one to instead attack Ned in the street probably saved Ned's life for the time being.  Knowing how Ned's story turned out though, it's hard to know whether that was a good or a bad thing.

One of the things I think this chapter does well is illustrate what Septon Meribald will talk about in the next book in his "the man breaks" speech.  Dondarrion and Harwin and the Winterfell men set out for the Riverlands with the clear idea that they were bringing the king's justice to the Mountain and then Tywin.  But then that king died. Ned, the man who sent them, died.  And now Tywin and another king are running things and they've become outlaws by default.  So they keep fighting and telling themselves there's a higher purpose to it.  Yet they're stealing from kids and people who dealt fairly with them to the point that a former man of Ned's like Harwin can capture and hold Arya and think he's doing the right thing.

I can't really blame Hot Pie for deciding even a bad roof and likely unpaid labor is better than continuing to traipse around the Riverlands.

[Avaleigh]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Not that I think this was a good decision, but in either the epilogue or Feast, it's revealed that Harwin is responsible for the birth of Lady Stoneheart because he begged Thoros to resurrect Catelyn until Beric gave his life to her when Thoros refused. So he must have still had a lot of feelings for House Stark to be that affected by the Red Wedding and finding his lady dead. There are southerners like Davos and Brienne who have great loyalty for those they're sworn to, but I do think we've seen more people loyal to the Starks than anyone else. Part of that is that they're the heroes we're following in this story, but we also are shown that Ned cared about his people more than any other lord, as you noted in the book one re-read in the chapter with Jory's death. Sansa's line was laughable bullshit on the show, but the North Remembers actually did mean something in the books.

My thought on this is that he might have felt guilty that he didn't support Robb and was responding to that by begging Thoros.

I agree that Ned cared about his men and I agree that the North Remembers has meaning, but there really are loads of non northern characters to point to who are extremely loyal so it comes across as arrogant to me and a little prejudiced that northerners are supposed to be better than other men in this regard. 

It's not just characters like Davos and Brienne. I think of people like Raymun Darry, Jacelyn Bywater, the Blackfish, Cortnay Penrose, Loras, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Arys Oakheart, etc. I think of things like Addam Marbrand not giving up on the search for Tyrek out of pure loyalty rather than taking Bronn's attitude or how Quentyn's companions were steadfastly loyal to him even when they disagreed with him or were in mortal danger. Dany's bloodriders are exceptionally loyal even though she's a woman. Once she earned their loyalty they've been as loyal and dedicated as they can be. 

As far as love and loyalty from the people, the Tyrells seem very loved to the point where they didn't take any heat or flack for siding with an usurper like Renly. The Tyrells have the loyalty of the people and not just from the Reach. The people from the Reach and KL both acted when they heard their lady and queen was in danger. The crowds would chant to have her freed. I think of how conscious Sansa and Tyrion are of how loved the Tyrells are by the people and how Sansa and Tyrion both reflected on how they weren't by them at all. 

[Avaleigh]

Samwell I

Sam can't stop crying and feels that he isn't able to keep trudging through the snow much longer. He struggles to keep going and knows that he'll die if he stops walking.

About fifty men managed to flee the Fist and they keep losing more as they race for the Wall. Some have wandered into the snow, some of the wounded have bled to death, and others have been killed by their pursuers. At one point Sam hears a terrible scream behind him and this gives him the energy to run for about thirty yards in fear. He thinks to himself that he'd still be running if he only had the strength. 

The Old Bear has ordered some of the men to hold torches, so that they can have a ring of fire surrounding them as they flee. Sam thinks about how he wanted to be one of the torch bearers, and one of his brothers reminds him that he was given a torch but ended up dropping it, so he isn't going to be trusted with another. 

Sam repeatedly prays to the Mother for mercy and thinks about how his mother and family are warm and safe at Horn Hill. He thinks the gods of the Seven won't be able able to hear his prayers north of the Wall. Sam remembers seeing one man pray for mercy just before a wight kills him and finds his thoughts drifting towards the Others. He tries not to think about them and goes back to focusing on how he'll manage to keep walking. 

When Sam falls after stumblimg over a root, he feels like he's reached the end and can't manage to get back to his feet again. He takes some comfort in the idea that people will be able to say that he died a man of the Night's Watch and did his duty.

Sam thinks about how the Old Bear instructed him to send ravens in the event they're attacked. He swears to Sam that he'll hunt him down in the Seven Hells if he doesn't do his duty. Sam manages to send some of the ravens off. 

As he's down on the ground, Sam wishes that he could have been a stronger son for his parents and a better brother to his siblings. He thinks about more details on the attack at the Fist and thinks about how quickly hundreds of wights appeared. He wonders if Dickon will mourn him and decides it's unlikely that anyone would shed a tear over a coward.

Grenn tries hard to get Sam back on his feet and tells him that he's going to die if he doesn't get up. One man tells Grenn to leave Sam and to save his energy for himself, but Grenn insists that Sam just needs a hand. Grenn pulls Sam to his feet but Sam just falls down again and tells Grenn that he's hurting him. Grenn tries kicking Sam but Sam more or less seems resigned to his fate. 

Small Paul comes onto the scene and tells Grenn to take his torch while he carries Sam. Sam tells Paul to put him down and tells them to just let him die. Grenn tells Sam to think about things that make him happy and suggests he sing a song. Sam feels like he can't remember any songs and Grenn says that everyone knows 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair'. Grenn sings for a bit but Sam isn't in the mood for songs and asks him to stop.

Small Paul mentions that Chett told him that he could have the Old Bear's raven and asks Sam if he could have one of the other ravens instead. Sam remembers how he let the rest of the ravens go once the battle was lost but forgot to send the additional messages that he'd written. He thinks back to how they had to cut through a wall of wights in order to flee and remembers how he pissed himself more than once in fear. 

Grenn, Paul, and Sam begin to lag behind and another man tells Paul to leave Sam to die. Paul explains that Sam promised him a raven and tries to keep going, but it's clear that he's losing energy. Grenn comments that they can no longer see the torches, and Paul soon sets Sam down and tells him that he doesn't have the strength to carry him anymore but would if he could.

They hear a noise and soon see one of the Others riding towards them on a dead horse. Paul asks the Other why he hurt the horse and Grenn shouts at the Other to get away and tries to threaten it with his torch. Paul tries to attack the Other with an axe but is quickly killed, and Sam starts praying again to the gods for mercy. The Other loses his sword as Paul falls and Sam forces himself to stab the Other with his dagger. He hits it in the throat and the Other begins to shriek and melt as Grenn and Sam watch. 

The Other completely dissolves, and Grenn goes to pick up the dagger but instantly drops it because it's so cold. Sam explains that the dagger is made of dragonglass and starts laughing and crying all at once. Grenn pulls Sam to his feet, checks to make sure that Paul is dead, and picks up the dagger again. Sam tells Grenn that he should have the dagger and says that Grenn isn't a craven the way that he is. Grenn reminds Sam that he just killed an Other and tells Sam that if they head east they should be able to catch up with Mormont. Sam starts putting on foot in front of the other and promises to try.

[Lady S.]

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Harwin talking about the trap Tywin and the Mountain laid for them in the Riverlands that got most of the Winterfell men killed is interesting, just as it is to contemplate that Jaime being out of the loop on that one to instead attack Ned in the street probably saved Ned's life for the time being.  Knowing how Ned's story turned out though, it's hard to know whether that was a good or a bad thing.

One of the things I think this chapter does well is illustrate what Septon Meribald will talk about in the next book in his "the man breaks" speech.  Dondarrion and Harwin and the Winterfell men set out for the Riverlands with the clear idea that they were bringing the king's justice to the Mountain and then Tywin.  But then that king died. Ned, the man who sent them, died.  And now Tywin and another king are running things and they've become outlaws by default.  So they keep fighting and telling themselves there's a higher purpose to it.  Yet they're stealing from kids and people who dealt fairly with them to the point that a former man of Ned's like Harwin can capture and hold Arya and think he's doing the right thing.

I can't really blame Hot Pie for deciding even a bad roof and likely unpaid labor is better than continuing to traipse around the Riverlands.

I also thought that while Ned sending away his best men was one of his less than bright choices, Harwin and the other few survivors probably wouldn't have survived at all if they'd stayed in KL. The goldcloaks had Ned's men outnumbered to the point that 20 more northmen wouldn't have made a difference and they would have all been killed trapped in the throne room with Ned.

Good call on the broken man angle. How many weeks was it between Beric's first death and Robb's army actually going to battle in the riverlands? Seems natural enough that in that time of uncertainty Harwin would feel Beric was his new lord and convince himself that he'd found a higher purpose.

I can understand why Arya felt abandoned by Hot Pie, but I don't get the feeling he really had much choice in the matter seeing as how the outlaw innkeeps just take whatever they want. The woman won't even let him keep his own nickname! Poor little cutie pie trying to kiss Arya's hand once he knew she was a lady was almost as good as him giving her wolf bread on the show.

[Avaleigh]

Hot Pie has made the list of minor characters I'd very much like to hear has survived even if it's in a brief quick way. Like some character stops by the inn and mentions how great the food and bread are. I too thought it was cute that he wanted to kiss Arya's hand. 

Regarding the Sam chapter, this one really got to me. I know some people think that Small Paul is cheesy but I thought he was sweet and totally felt a pang when he was killed. The way he talks about how he saved food for the raven, the story about carrying the calf so that he could drink milk from its mother, the way he demands of the Other why he had to hurt a horse that belonged to one of their brothers, etc. All of that stuff moved me. The guy just wants to have a pet and he's indirectly killed for it. Also, I again had the thought of wishing that Paul had fallen in with Jon and his friends rather than Chett and those other murderous assholes. He had potential. Too bad. 

The other thing that really struck me is how awesome Grenn is. He truly treats Sam like a brother and it was really meaningful to me to the point where there was something in my eye when he told the man who encouraged him to leave Sam to die that Sam just needs a helping hand. The world needs more men like Grenn and not just the world of asoiaf.

When I consider that Chett had just nearly killed Sam, one man of the Night's Watch steals Sam's horse for himself, and multiple people urge Grenn and Paul both to dump the fat boy, I think it's great to see that some people in the NW aren't only willing to help themselves. 

I also like how Sam forced himself to overcome his fear and heard the voices of various people urging him on. Interesting too that he hears Thorne's voice along with his father's and Jon's. 

I didn't recall that giant that got turned into a wight. Yikes. I did recall the bear and would like to see the show acknowledge that animals other than horses are effected by the White Walkers because it emphasizes that the Others are against all life. I'll never understand people who are on Team White Walker just because they saw Craster's baby stop crying when the Night's King picked him up. 

Tyrion is up next and it looks like a good one. Lots of marriage talk IIRC.

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter makes me wish an aggressive editor had been able to convince George to tone it down a bit on how fat and weak and craven Sam is.  I like Sam.  I actually like him quite a lot as he's one of the purer souls of this entire series without being a complete bloody fool about it and I think there's definitely a place in a story like this for a hero who isn't particularly strong or skilled with a sword, etc., who has other talents.  But good gods, does every other paragraph have to be about how fat he is or how craven or how he just pissed himself yet again or how he can't stop crying or he can't walk more than two feet without falling down? 

Other than that?  White walkers.  Wights.  A wight bear.  A wight giant.  Yeah.  At this point in the story, I'm thinking that if all our various little kingdoms don't stop squabbling with each other and get their shit together enough to figure what to do about this coming problem, they're all fucked.

[Avaleigh]

My biggest issue with Sam being fat and it being mentioned what feels like multiple times per page is that there's no reason he shouldn't have lost a significant amount of weight at this point. I'm not saying he should be thin just not as ridiculously fat as he's described. These are active guys who have to hike here and there just for things like water. They have minimal food so there's no extravagance in that department. I feel like it would have made more sense for his clothes to be ill fitting because of losing weight. The whole thing with him having to hitch up his sword belt every few steps just seemed like a weird detail that felt unnecessary. 

Sam focusing on being a craven I can understand a bit more because his father drilled it into his head for years and years, so I can imagine that would be tough to shake particularly in such intense and dangerous circumstances. I was reminded of Bran asking Ned about whether or not men can be afraid and still be brave and Ned's response really lines up with Sam's act of bravery here. 

I love that Grenn was around to witness it because otherwise nobody other than maybe Jon would have believed it. 

I can't decide if I like the show's take on this more as far as Sam killing the WW to defend Gilly. I like both.

It made me wonder too if Randyll would have believed that Sam had killed the WW if somebody like Grenn or Jon had told him rather than Gilly or if would still have thought it was bullshit since Grenn isn't highborn and Jon is a bastard. 

If we have wight giants, shadowcats, and bears, I'm thinking an ice dragon could be around the corner after all. 

[Lady S.]

3 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

It made me wonder too if Randyll would have believed that Sam had killed the WW if somebody like Grenn or Jon had told him rather than Gilly or if would still have thought it was bullshit since Grenn isn't highborn and Jon is a bastard. 

If we have wight giants, shadowcats, and bears, I'm thinking an ice dragon could be around the corner after all. 

I think he would have disbelieved anyone just because white walkers aren't supposed to exist.

I'm still holding out for those ice spiders big as hounds.

Yeah, I thought the hitching up of his swordbelt was a weird and annoying detail.

Man, how many chapters in this book include people singing The Bear and the Maiden Fair?

Interesting that Sam, like Catelyn, still believes in the Seven but also believes in the protection of the old gods. Never see it the other way around with old gods believers not discounting the Seven. I mean, we know that the old gods are the force which has actually shown some power, but only Bran and the Reeds are really shown to know about that. Can others in the north feel the magical power even if they have no deeper understanding of the old gods?

[Avaleigh]

Interesting too that Sam doesn't think the Seven have power north of the Wall. What sort of almighty powerful gods does he think they are if they're limited to a certain space? 

Good point about people like Sam and Catelyn being followers of the Faith but also believing in the old gods. I would argue that the Lord of Light or whoever/whatever it is has demonstrated some kind of force of power that's on the level of the old gods. I was on the fence about that until Moqorro was introduced and once we met him I feel like there's proof that the faith of R'hllor is just as or even more powerful than whatever is going on with the old gods. It's not just the ability to read the flames. Those priests have some mad survival and healing skills. 

[nodorothyparker]

Considering that Ned doesn't believe the deserter's babble about the white walkers in the very beginning of this series because at this point it's mostly a story from thousands of years ago, I wouldn't expect Randall Tarly to believe any story about anyone killing one, let alone his least favorite and most cowardly son.

Given the rise of the Sparrows and the Faith Militant by the next book, it's always been interesting to me what toothless figureheads the Seven seem to be throughout so much of the series compared to the old gods or R'hllor.  And I do realize that's at least as much about social need and political opportunism set off by unending war and a short-sighted idiot as much as any genuine religious fervor.  Worship of the Seven by so many of our characters up to that point seems to be a rote experience at best.

Edited July 8, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

Definitely a great chapter and I think the only chapter other than the AGOT prologue that features an actual White Walker, isn't it?

I love the characterization of the Night's Watch members.

I suspect Randyll wouldn't believe the story either.  He's a massive jackass but Westeros needs him for the war ahead.  If he can finally see that the White Walkers exist, the Realm would have the best soldier in the Seven Kingdoms to help them fight.  One who has a Valyrian sword.

Totally agree with Aveleigh about how ridiculous it is that Sam is still extremely fat at this point.  He's spent the past couple of weeks (months) hiking at this point for his life.  Even before that, I seriously doubt there's enough food for anyone to be eating heavily and as noted, the Night's Watch lifestyle is a very active one to begin with.  I think George gets a little OTT when he describes fat characters in Westeros (if you're evil, you're likely fat in this series with a few exceptions like Sam).  It isn't until Sam gets off the boat at Oldtown where it's finally noted that he's started to really drop some weight.

[Lady S.]

On 7/7/2016 at 6:25 PM, Avaleigh said:

Good point about people like Sam and Catelyn being followers of the Faith but also believing in the old gods. I would argue that the Lord of Light or whoever/whatever it is has demonstrated some kind of force of power that's on the level of the old gods. I was on the fence about that until Moqorro was introduced and once we met him I feel like there's proof that the faith of R'hllor is just as or even more powerful than whatever is going on with the old gods. It's not just the ability to read the flames. Those priests have some mad survival and healing skills. 

Agreed, but most people who believe in Red Rahloo are full converts as that religion doesn't allow for belief in other gods. The only exception is Vic because he's too dumb to realize the Drowned God and Red Rahloo are both closed off monotheistic systems. I think the real question there is if the power is really a god named R'hllor who wants what his priest/priestesses believe He wants or if the force behind their magic just happens to answer to that name. I think Ned and most old gods followers would be pretty surprised if they actually met Bloodraven or any other greenseer, and might find themselves to not actually be on the same page after all. (For instance, as I've noted before, the gods old and new supposedly loath kinslayers, yet Bloodraven was a quadruple kinslayer.) I suspect this same dissonance between believers and the higher powers they're actually praying to would be true across all religions. 

Sam's line about the Seven having no power beyond the Wall reminded me of Osha's line about the old gods having no power below the Neck. I guess Sam thinks the Seven are powerless without septs just as Osha thought the old gods were powerless without eyes. But we know that Osha was wrong about there being no godswoods in the South. Even if she's not counting the non-weirwood heart trees, we know there's an old weirwood at Harrenhal, a dead weirwood at Raventree Hall, and one at Storm's End before Stannis burned it. I think the non-weirwood heart trees King's Landing and the rest should count too, though, considering that the wildlings Mel and Stan release to Mole's Town just carve faces on 3 different kinds of trees. Really, I think the South is more friendly to both sets of main Westerosi gods than the North, seeing as how most castles have both a godswood and a sept. Meanwhile, in the North, White Harbor and Winterfell are the only strongholds we know of with both a godswood and a sept. And the Winterfell sept was only built recently for Catelyn, despite the fact that the Stark family tree reveals they've intermarried with the Manderlys multiple times. I mean, Sansa has her family connections suppressed in every other way but no one objects to her visiting the godswood to pray to her treasonous father's gods, with Cersei only terming the visits treasonous because she rightly assumed Sansa was praying for the Lannisters' defeat.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Lady S.

[Jazzy24]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Agreed, but most people who believe in Red Rahloo are full converts as that religion doesn't allow for belief in other gods. The only exception is Vic because he's too dumb to realize the Drowned God and Red Rahloo are both closed off monotheistic systems. I think the real question there is if the power is really a god named R'hllor who wants what his priest/priestesses believe He wants or if the force behind their magic just happens to answer to that name. I think Ned and most old gods followers would be pretty surprised if they actually met Bloodraven or any other greenseer, and might find themselves to not actually be on the same page after all. (For instance, as I've noted before, the gods old and new supposedly loath kinslayers, yet Bloodraven was a quadruple kinslayer.) I suspect this same dissonance between believers and the higher powers they're actually praying to would be true across all religions. 

Sam's line about the Seven having no power beyond the Wall echoes Osha's line about the old gods having no power below the Neck. I guess Sam thinks the Seven are powerless without septs just as Osha thought the old gods were powerless without eyes. But we know that Osha was wrong about there being no godswoods in the South. Even if she's not counting the non-weirwood heart trees, we know there's an old weirwood at Harrenhal, a dead weirwood at Raventree Hall, and one at Storm's End before Stannis burned it. I think the non-weirwood heart trees at Riverrun, King's Landing and the rest should count too, though, considering that the wildlings Mel and Stan release to Mole's Town just carve faces on 3 different kinds of trees. Really, I think the South is more friendly to both sets of main Westerosi gods than the North, seeing as how most castles have both a godswood and a sept. Meanwhile, in the North, White Harbor and Winterfell are the only strongholds we know of with both a godswood and a sept. And the Winterfell sept was only built recently for Catelyn, despite the fact that the Stark family tree reveals they've intermarried with the Manderlys multiple times. I mean, Sansa has her family connections suppressed in every other way but no one objects to her visiting the godswood to pray to her treasonous father's gods, with Cersei only terming the visits treasonous because she rightly assumed Sansa was praying for the Lannisters' defeat.

To the bolded that's not true. The South is defiantly less tolerable of other religions than the North. 

The only reason there isn't more worshippers of the Seven in the North is because the Starks and their bannermen repelled every Andal invasion. The Starks even let the Manderlys keep their gods when they gave them land. While there have been instances of a king like Baelor the blessed who probably would have started a religious war with the North and Iron Islands because they didn't worship the faith. 

The majority of the North worship the old gods that's why there are no septs but in White Harbor and Winterfell. 

[Hecate7]

On 7/7/2016 at 6:12 PM, Lady S. said:

I think he would have disbelieved anyone just because white walkers aren't supposed to exist.

I'm still holding out for those ice spiders big as hounds.

Yeah, I thought the hitching up of his swordbelt was a weird and annoying detail.

 

One of the first things to happen when you lose weight, is that your pants are too loose. Sam probably IS losing weight and simply doesn't realize it, because his self-image is that he's really, really fat, and because even as he loses weight he probably still looks softer and fatter than the other NW men. The belt constantly slipping is a hint.