The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[benteen]

Tywin's continued use of The Mountain and things like what he did to Alayaya is something I'd like to remind D&D when they give interviews saying that they don't view Tywin as a bad guy.  Tywin is a sadist who almost always chooses to go overboard when making a point.

Excellent point, Lady S, about how Tywin mocks Tyrion for wanting recognition while he was the same guy riding his horse into the Red Keep to be proclaimed savior of the city.

[nodorothyparker]

I had forgotten that Bywater was killed by his own men for trying to bully them into staying to fight when they were trying to flee.

There's lots and lots of information being relayed here, like who ended up where after the battle.  That the city and the Red Keep are overflowing with people as wedding plans steam on ahead.  That Twyin considers both Stannis and Robb mostly finished all but for the cleanup.  That the Kettleblacks have all been promoted even though Bronn acknowledges that no one has any idea what they did to deserve it.  That while Tywin may have been the one to actually give the order to have Alayaya whipped and thrown out into the city naked, Cersei is the one who set that in motion too in a nice parallel bit of foreshadowing.

Tyrion does have a right to feel more than a little bitter as he sees everyone being rewarded and acknowledged but him.  Twyin says the common belief is that his last minute arrival turned the battle and saved the city.  But there wouldn't have been anything to save if Tyrion hadn't managed to put up enough of a fight to delay Stannis' forces getting into the Red Keep until Tywin got there.  Tywin really is an ass here and he's going out of his way to be cruel to him.  Still, Tywin has a point that Tyrion was apparently willing to hurt young Tommen and apparently would have followed through to get back at Cersei over a whore they all would have viewed as inconsequential.  Tyrion also went into the job knowing he was the acting hand only as long as Tywin was in the field, so it's a little hard to understand his full outrage there.  You can see him hoping that Tywin's presence is only a temporary thing and he'll soon be back where he thinks he belongs when he's asking if he won't be heading back out deal with Stannis or Robb himself. 

I'm struck by Tywin's line that "Ser Gregor has his uses, as did his brother.  Every lord has need of a beast from time to time."  I admit the Clegane brothers fascinate me probably more than they should for their relative importance in the story, but it almost raises the question of the whole nature vs. nurture thing.  We know from the Hound's telling that Gregor was a horrible monster from the time he was a child and it seems like Tywin went out of his way to encourage and use both brothers to behave like beasts to do a lot of his dirty work so he'd have at least a veneer of plausible deniability, like with the killing of the Targaryen children.

Edited May 15, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

I liked hearing that they're still looking for Tyrek Lannister. I wonder if he'll ever pop up again. 

Addam Marbrand seems like an okay guy. I did like him being annoyed at Bronn's callousness even if Bronn is more than likely right about Tyrek. I also liked hearing that the Kettleblacks haven't done anything to earn their knighthoods. (I wonder why the third brother wasn't knighted? Or maybe he was and his name wasn't mentioned for whatever reason.)

I'm still unclear as to the timeline regarding Tywin and Shae. Presumably though they haven't met yet, right?

I enjoyed all of the set up in this chapter. I have to agree with those who feel that there's a night and day difference in terms of pacing with the first three books. Everything that Tyrion is going to be dealing with in this book is set up in this chapter. His desire for respect and a suitable reward, the threats he's made to his nephews, the alliance with the Martells that he engineered, his complicated relationship with his father--no travelogue, minimal drinking, interaction with characters we care about, understandable self pity instead of insufferable self pity, etc. The chapters in these first three books remind me of how much I used to enjoy Tyrion's POV. I certainly hope that Winds will get me back to feeling that way about his chapters. I don't even think Tyrion cracks the top eight in terms of POVs I'd like to get another sample chapter of. 

Since everyone knows I'm in favor of the theory that Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological child, this chapter was particularly interesting for me because it's the closest Tywin ever gets to addressing the issue apart from his last words. His choice of words when he refers to Tyrion's "station" in life is curious. 

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

Addam Marbrand seems like an okay guy. I did like him being annoyed at Bronn's callousness even if Bronn is more than likely right about Tyrek.

Going by the World Book, Addam Marbrand should be a 2nd cousin of Tyrion, Tyrek, Jaime and the others because Tywin's mom was daughter to a previous Lord Marbrand which probably means Addam's father is her brother.

[Avaleigh]

Davos I

Davos is stranded on a rock in Blackwater Bay and is deciding whether or he wants to live or die. It's been three or four days, he's hardly had any food or water, and he's feeling feverish. He thinks that he was meant to die at sea and considers attempting to swim for shore so that he can meet the gods beneath the waves. 

He debates whether or not he should attempt to flag down a ship that's going to pass by but isn't sure that he wants to live now that he knows at least four of his sons are dead. He cries as he thinks of five of his sons and wonders why he's been permitted to outlive the ones who've died. He blames himself for leading his sons into the battle and thinks about all the dashed hopes and dreams his sons had. 

Davos thinks back to how he managed to save himself by swimming beneath the chain and realizes that the fingerbones that he used to wear around his neck are gone. 

He thinks he hears the Mother accusing him of having the statues of the Seven burned and cries that the burning was Melisandre's work. He also acknowledges that he did nothing when Melisandre burned the Seven or when she killed Maester Cressen. He thinks about how he rowed her into Storm's End and understands that he's not blameless.

Just as the ship is about to pass his rock, he decides to yell for help. A small boat is launched from the ship to get closer to Davos and once they're a few feet away, one of the men asks him who he is. Davos says that he was a captain and a knight and admits that he was in the battle. The man asks Davos which king he served in the battle and Davos briefly worries that the galley may belong to Joffrey. He's relieved to see that the galley is one of Salladhor Saan's and thinks this means that the Mother must have some other task for him. He realizes that Stannis must still be alive and reminds himself that he stll has his wife and other sons. He thinks about how merciful the Mother can be and shouts to the man that he serves King Stannis. One of the men in the boat confirms that they serve Stannis as well.

[SeanC]

Not that I don't like the character quite a lot, but Davos' surviving the wildfire explosion when he was at ground zero and somehow ending up on an island far enough away from King's Landing that Stannis' patrols are able to find him is quite a stretch.

[Lady S.]

I don't have much to say for this chapter, other it's very interesting that Davos thinks the Mother is speaking to him, and I think the book character's piety makes more sense than tv Davos being given book Stan's atheism to contrast against Stan/Mel's reliance on the LoL. And Davos provides an example of a sympathetic character following the Seven, which is sorely lacking on the show where the Faith Militant are the only Sevenites on display.

[WearyTraveler]

What I most remember about reading this chapter the first time is how relieved I was that Davos had survived, much as I felt when I found out Manderly didn't execute him.  Now I'm worried that third time is the charm and the next time we read Davos dies, he will  :'(

[nodorothyparker]

I don't have much on this chapter either except remembering how relieved I was to see it on first read through.  The last book closes up with the newly minted Lannister/Tyrell alliance barring Tyrion all celebrating their triumph over Stannis so I honestly wasn't sure if anyone on the other side had survived.

Davos has one of those moments that I sometimes find lacking in the books where he's feeling the weight of his culpability in leading his sons to follow Stannis and then to their deaths on that river.  I love his internal answer to the question of who he is, "a smuggler who rose above himself, a fool who loved his king too much."  It's unflinchingly honest and one reason why I tend to trust his POVs to be fairly accurate reads over a lot of other characters'.

[Avaleigh]

The main thing that stood out to me here was Davos thinking about meeting the gods beneath the water. I know he believes in the Seven but it reminded me of the Drowned God. 

Davos really is heartbreaking here. At least in the books he has surviving sons. I'd love for him to be able to go home to his wife in one piece after all is said and done. The bittersweet part can come when he tells her that they're moving to King's Landing because he's been appointed Master of Ships in Jon Targaryen's new small council. ;)

The other thought I had is how Salladhor Saan lucked out that Imry Florent was a snob who made the call to keep Saan's ships in the rear. I sincerely hope that Stannis rewards Salladhor for rescuing his MVP.

[benteen]

Heheh.  We know how Stannis "rewards" people so maybe it's good that Saan doesn't receive his. ;)

[Avaleigh]

Sansa I 

Margaery Tyrell has sent Sansa an invitation to dinner and Sansa is wondering why Margaery would want to hang out with a traitor's daughter. She worries that Joffrey could be behind the invite and is concerned that this is all some elaborate prank designed to humiliate her. She knows she can't refuse Margaery's invitation and she wishes that the Hound were still in the city. She wonders if she was wise to refuse his offer of keeping her safe.

Loras Tyrell escorts Sansa to dinner and Sansa can't help but comment on how lovely she thinks he looks. Their conversation eventually turns to the time Sansa saw him ride in the tourney honoring her father. Sansa is bummed when she realizes that Loras doesn't remember that he singled her out that day by giving her a red rose when all the others he'd given out had been white. In an effort to get Loras to remember, she mentions that he gave her the rose right after he unseated Robar Royce. Loras pulls his arm away from Sansa and tells her that he killed Robar back at Storm's End. Sansa notices how sad he sounds.

Sansa comments on how sad Renly's death must have been for Margaery and Loras says that there's no point in speaking about Robar and Renly now that they're dead. Sansa tells Loras that she didn't mean to upset him but all of the warmth is gone from his voice, and he chooses not to take her arm again. Sansa feels like she's ruined everything and can't think of anything to say to fill the awkward silence. 

Margaery greets Sansa warmly and introduces her to a bunch of ladies associated with House Tyrell. The Queen of Thorns is the last to be introduced and Sansa is struck by how tiny she is. Olenna tells Sansa that they're sorry for her recent losses and spends some time talking about how she wasn't exactly on board with her family's support of Renly.

As dinner is served, Olenna chats about various subjects including her family, the claims other families of the Reach may or may not have on Highgarden, how her family wanted her to marry a Targaryen at one point, and how she wishes that she'd been permitted to beat her son with a wooden spoon.

Olenna eventually turns the conversation to Joffrey and asks Sansa what kind of boy he is. Sansa nervously replies that Joffrey is handsome and claims that he's brave. Olenna asks Sansa to tell them truth and says there's no reason for her to be frightened. Sansa points out that her father always used to tell the truth and it didn't work out so well for him. Olenna acknowledges that Ned Stark had a reputation for honesty and Sansa admits that it was Joffrey who ordered her father's head to be cut off.

Once Sansa gives more details on what happened with Joffrey and her father, she starts panicking that she's said too much and starts saying that traitor's blood runs in her family. She begs them not to make her say anymore. Olenna tells Sansa to calm down and Margaery comments on how obviously terrified Sansa is. Olenna orders their fool to sing as loudly as possible and encourages Sansa to go on.

Sansa admits that Joffrey is a monster and tells them how the Kingsguard are ordered to beat her if she displeases him in any way. She says that he's evil and says that Cersei is as well.

Margaery asks Sansa if she'd like to visit Highgarden and Olenna tells Sansa about the plan to have her marry one of Margaery's brothers. Sansa says she'd like to marry Loras more than anything and Olenna is annoyed at this and tells Sansa that they had Margaery's brother Willas in mind for her. Sansa learns that Willas was crippled in a riding accident that involved Oberyn Martell.

Margaery says that Willas has a good heart and says that Sansa will love him as much as they all do. Sansa asks when she'll be able to meet him and Margaery says that Olenna will bring Sansa to Highgarden after Joffrey and Margaery's wedding.

[benteen]

This was a good debut for Olenna.  Does she say in this chapter that Loras is good at hitting men with a stick (or knocking them off a horse) or was that a book line?

This chapter also had the Loras line "when the sun sets, no candle can match it" or something to the effect.  You would never know on the show sometimes just how much he was in love with Renly.

You know, I actually do believe that Margaery liked Sansa but like the rest of the Tyrells, it's the family plan that matters the most.

Edited May 24, 2016 by benteen

[Neko]

This is one of my favorite chapters of the whole series.  Not only do we get the Queen of Thorns, but Sansa finally gets to release some of her pain and misery.  It's heartbreaking.

[Avaleigh]

I loved this chapter. It's one of my favorites for Sansa. The most heartbreaking thing is probably when she starts panicking that she's said too much and starts saying that she has traitor's blood. Her understandable paranoia that she's going to be beaten or worse for telling the truth about her situation is very sad to read.

It's interesting too that Lannisters aren't the only ones reflecting on how the smallfolk already love Margaery. Sansa is thinking about how the smallfolk would have attacked her had it not been for the Hound and these same people all think that Margaery is the greatest even though Sansa didn't do anythingto earn the wrath of the people in King's Landing. 

Yes Benteen, I agree with you that the show doesn't do justice to the Renly/Loras relationship. Poor Sansa has no idea that she's basically poking at an open wound. 

I wonder how she would have liked Willas. She certainly would have adored Highgarden if she'd been able to go. Too bad. 

We get some interesting information in this chapter too like the mention of Oberyn being involved in Willas's accident and how there are other families in the Reach who might have a better claim on Highgarden. I forgot how early Taena Merryweather is introduced. Sad that the young cousins are being brought down with Margaery.

[benteen]

That Willas doesn't blame Oberyn for his injury speaks highly of him, growing up in a world where blood feuds can occur over relatively stupid matters.

[Avaleigh]

Btw Olenna does have the line about how Loras is good at knocking men off of their horses with a stick. She seems to have had a pretty low opinion of Renly understandably. I wonder what she would have thought about a Robb/Margaery union.

I did like the moment where Sansa passes Garlan training and we learn that he likes to train fightingmore than one man. He seems like a pretty capable fighter but his name isn't typically mentioned when the great fighters of Westeros come up. Loras admits that Garlan is better than he is with a sword. It seems to me that it's a lot more useful to be more skilled with a blade at the end of the day.

[nodorothyparker]

Olenna's line about how good Loras is knocking men off horses with a stick is in this chapter, but Loras' line about no candle replacing the sun comes later, I think, in a chapter after Jaime returns to Kings Landing.  Sansa, of course, completely misses it but Loras' reaction to her talking about Margaery being Renly's poor grieving widow and how terrible his loss must be for her is incredibly telling to what his relationship with Renly really was.  I do wish the show hadn't mangled that so badly.

I love this introduction to Olenna so much.  She clearly didn't think much of Renly or his dubious claim to the throne, and you can't really even say she's wrong, but she doesn't think much of the men of her family either.  It's interesting how freely she's talking about the Tyrells' relatively low origins and questionable claim to the Reach.  She's so pithy and dismissive that it initially gets by you that she's just as ambitious as the rest of her family, she just plays the sharp-tongued old lady instead of being as openly grasping.  The entire conversation occurring between the shouted lyrics of The Bear and The Maiden Fair is hysterical.

You can really see the number the Lannisters have done on Sansa in this chapter.  She has a relatively positive thought about Tyrion before realizing he's not in a position to help her anymore, wishes the Hound was still there to help her, and then Dontos.  So she is still looking to be rescued, but it's hard to really blame her as terrified as she is to even speak of anything Joffrey has done to her so far.  It's also sad how quickly she latches on the idea of marrying a Tyrell, any Tyrell, to get her out of there.  After everything that's happened and everything she's been through, she still wants to buy into the idea of marrying the handsome knight with the fairy tale castle and she's so eager to cast a Tyrell son and Highgarden in that role.  Even after acknowledging that that's what she once thought Kings Landing would be and look how that turned out.

Edited May 24, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Btw Olenna does have the line about how Loras is good at knocking men off of their horses with a stick. She seems to have had a pretty low opinion of Renly understandably. I wonder what she would have thought about a Robb/Margaery union.

I did like the moment where Sansa passes Garlan training and we learn that he likes to train fightingmore than one man. He seems like a pretty capable fighter but his name isn't typically mentioned when the great fighters of Westeros come up. Loras admits that Garlan is better than he is with a sword. It seems to me that it's a lot more useful to be more skilled with a blade at the end of the day.

I suspect Olenna would have thought Robb would treat her daughter well but Stark honor would have driven her crazy.

Sansa's hostage behavior is disturbing and understandable.

Yeah, Garlan seems to be one of the underrated likeable characters in the books.  He's got it made.  Married, great fighter, a knight and has just been given his own lordship.

I don't remember what chapter it is but Tyrion wondering whether Olenna's husband deliberately rode off the mountain or not always makes me laugh.

[Lady S.]

On 5/24/2016 at 6:21 PM, nodorothyparker said:

You can really see the number the Lannisters have done on Sansa in this chapter.  She has a relatively positive thought about Tyrion before realizing he's not in a position to help her anymore, wishes the Hound was still there to help her, and then Dontos.  So she is still looking to be rescued, but it's hard to really blame her as terrified as she is to even speak of anything Joffrey has done to her so far.  

Well, it's not she could have ever escaped King's Landing without a protector. Arya needed Syrio's and Yoren's help, as well as Jon's gift and Ned allowing her to train with Syrio. She would have maybe tried to run away on her own, but I doubt she would have succeeded. It took a while to decide to rescue herself and her pack in Harrenhal.

Sansa's already re-writing her memory of her last encounter with the Hound by wondering if she was right to refuse, when she really have a chance to refuse anything with his knife at her throat.

I think this is the first time The Bear and the Maiden Fair shows up in the books, right? The next chapter has another new song when Jon meets Mance.

[Avaleigh]

Jon I

Jon is riding with the wildlings to where Mance Rayder is camped and Rattleshirt tells Jon that he's sure Mance will be able to see him for the crow that he is. Rattleshirt promises that he'll gut Jon and make a cloak out of Ghost's skin. Ygritte reassures Jon and tells him that Mance will accept him after he hears about how Jon killed Qhorin. Jon thinks about how he's still a man of the Night's Watch as far as his heart is concerned. 

Jon is brought to Mance's tent and Jon commands Ghost to wait for him outside. Inside of the tent are several people including a grey haired man who is playing a lute as he sings "The Dornishman's Wife". Once the song is over, one of the men questions Rattleshirt about Jon. Rattleshirt says that Jon is a crow and a warg and Ygritte explains that Jon wasn't killed because he chose to come over to their side. She tells them about Jon killing Qhorin. 

Jon mistakenly thinks that the earless man is Mance and this makes Mance laugh and joke about how no one has ever heard of an earless king before because his crown would only fall down around neck. Jon is surprised when he sees that the singer is Mance and is even more stunned when Mance tells him that he knows Jon is Ned Stark's bastard. When Jon asks him how he knows this, Mance says it's a story for later.

Mance asks Jon if he really killed Qhorin Halfhand and seems sad at the thought of Qhorin being gone from the world. He acknowledges that Qhorin was his brother at one point and comments that the Shadow Tower will never again seem quite so fearsome. Jon says that Mance should thank him for killing one of his enemies as well as curse him for killing one of his friends. This makes Mance laugh and he eventually introduces Jon to the others in the tent including Styr, the earless Magnar of Thenn, Tormund Giantsbane, a woman named Dalla who is pregnant with Mance's child, and Dalla's pretty sister Val.

Mance begins questioning Jon and asks who told him where he was located. Tormund jumps in and says that it's obvious it was Craster. Mance is irritated with Tormund here and explains that he was asking Jon to test him to see if he would tell the truth.Tormund realizes that he screwed up and grins as he tells Jon that it's reasons like this that Mance is their king and Tormund isn't. Mance tells everyone to leave and says that he wants to speak to Jon alone. Tormund is a little miffed but leaves and takes an extra chicken with him. Dalla is the only one who is allowed to stay in the tent with Mance and Jon.

Mance and Jon eat together and Mance asks Jon if he's figured out yet how he already knew Jon's identity. Jon wonders if Rattleshirt sent word ahead but Mance tells Jon that he's twice seen him in person. The first time was when Mance was still a brother of the Night's Watch and the second time was during King Robert's visit to Winterfell. Mance says that he posed as a singer and Jon remembers the story that Ygritte told him about Bael the Bard. Mance admits that the story of Bael the Bard inspired him but notes that he didn't steal either of Jon's sisters. Jon wonders about what would have happened if Mance had been discovered. 

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and as sacred as a heart tree.

Mance asks Jon to tell him the truth about why he's decided to come over. Jon takes a moment to answer and finally says that he'll tell him why he turned his cloak if Mance reveals why he turned his.

After Jon tells Mance the common reasons that are supposed for Mance abandoning the Night's Watch, Mance says that the reason he ended up leaving was because of an incident where the Night's Watch wanted to take away a cloak he had that a wildling woman had repaired for him using scarlet silk. The woman took care of Mance after he was injured during a ranging and after caring for his wounds, she ended up fixing his cloak as a kind of parting gift. The fabric she used came from Asshai and was the greatest treasure the woman had, so the gesture meant a lot to Mance and he was upset when Ser Denys Mallister told him that the repaired cloak was good for nothing but burning. Mance says that he left the next morning so that he could live in a world where a kiss isn't treated like it's a crime and a man is allowed to wear any sort of cloak that he likes.

Mance asks Jon again about why he decided to leave and Jon decides that there's only one story from him that Mance might believe. He reminds Mance of where he was seated in comparison to his half siblings at the great feast at Winterfell during King Robert's visit. He asks Mance if he saw where they seated the bastard. 

Mance stares at Jon for a long time and finally tells him that they're going to need to find him a new cloak.

[benteen]

Good introduction for Mance.  It always annoyed me that they cut out him playing the lute.  It's like they didn't want to give Mance an off-beat introduction and instead decided to do a generic one on the show.

Though I liked Jon kneeling before Tormund on the show even more.

Mance at the Winterfell feast for Robert is always interesting to learn about.

[nodorothyparker]

I like this introduction to the wildling leaders. Mance comes off as extremely thoughful and personable, and thankfully show Tormund cleans up a little better than book Tormund.  I'm struck by the parallel of Jon identifying the wrong man as king here just as he did when Robert and his entourage first came to Winterfell, when he was disappointed in finding Robert fat and gone to seed and thinking Jaime looked everything a king should be.  There's a nice unspoken bit of commentary in there about things not always being what they first appear, I think.

There's a lot of talk of freedom here and what it is exactly that makes a man free.  While I know show Jon went for the more serious highminded answer about wanting to fight white walkers and being on the right side of the fight as his reason for desertion, there's something kind of painful and honest feeling about his answer here that he had always been less because of his bastard status.  I just really love the story of Mance having snuck into the Winterfell feast and that he remembers seeing Jon there.   And we get what I believe is this book's first mention of the seriousness of guest right in a bit of foreshadowing.

[Avaleigh]

I'm surprised that a wildling would somehow end up with goods from Asshai. That was a random bit of info. I wonder where the shipment was originally headed? Funny too that it sounds like material Melisandre would wear.

I liked Mance's story about wanting to live in a world where people wouldn't give him shit for wanting to wear what he wants and have relationships if he wants to like a normal human being. It's perfectly understandable and I can also see him being annoyed at Denys Mallister for failing to understand why the cloak meant something to him. Instead of letting Mance keep the cloak and the cloak maybe earning him a nickname, they lost a valuable member of the Night's Watch. 

I was discussing this with a friend and I think the Night's Watch would do a lot better in terms of numbers if people could sign up for a certain amount of years depending on their circumstances. I think highborn people would be a lot more willing to have their sons sign up for for anywhere from five to ten years of service and would likely even send supplies and whatnot to the Wall in exchange for their sons getting training and military experience. Have the criminals be the lifers in addition to whoever is interested. 

I totally heard Jerome Flynn in my head singing The Dornishman's Wife. 

I liked the memory of Robb and Jon pranking Fat Tom. Sad. 

I'm slightly confused about the rules when it comes to guest rights. Mance says that Ned would have taken his head if he'd been discovered but then says that he'd be protected by the guest right. Which is it? Also, didn't Bael the Bard break the guest right by stealing the Stark daughter? Isn't guest right supposed to be a two way street? Like, wouldn't the gods have been upset with Robb if he'd killed Walder Frey during his visit to the Twins? 

Ygritte is already looking after Jon and seems protective over him.

Show Tormund seems smarter than book Tormund. Mance seems to take to Jon very quickly. He also clearly trust Dalla. Interesting that he doesn't call her his wife. He just tells Jon to treat her like a queen. 

I like the small mentions we got of kids playing and women dancing and the wildlings just having fun. I can't help but think there's precious little of lighthearted stuff like that for them in general considering how hard the life is. 

It's crazy to me that Mance has climbed the Wall more than once and lived to tell the tale.

[benteen]

Quote

I was discussing this with a friend and I think the Night's Watch would do a lot better in terms of numbers if people could sign up for a certain amount of years depending on their circumstances. I think highborn people would be a lot more willing to have their sons sign up for for anywhere from five to ten years of service and would likely even send supplies and whatnot to the Wall in exchange for their sons getting training and military experience. Have the criminals be the lifers in addition to whoever is interested. 

I completely agree.  I think you'd get a lot of highborn knights willing to do a tour of duty on the Wall if they knew they didn't have to spend the rest of their lives there.  You could even have younger sons serve as knights and stewards there.  And as you pointed out, it might be a great way to get highborn lords to send more supplies and money to the Wall.  You could still hold non-life term members of their vows in case they have just half-assing it or desert as well.

I kind of felt Mance didn't have much of a choice when it came to joining the Watch because as I recall, he was a Wilding baby they had found.  He knew no other world other than the Night's Watch and beyond the Wall.  I think it's insane to let children take the black.  That should be something they can only do when they come of age.

[nodorothyparker]

I've always thought the same thing about the Wall.  It's great as a penal colony/dumping ground for all the various criminals the kingdoms don't want, but what real inducement is there to get anyone to basically sign their life away to serve there?  Unless you're a kid like Jon who's been fed stories about glory and doesn't really know what he's signing up for or like show Ollie with no place else to go and no other options.  I know we're talking about a universe where young teenagers are considered old enough to marry or lead armies, but it's always bothered me a little that you could give up your whole life at 14 or 15 for the Nights Watch or the Kingsguard without being old enough to really comprehend what it is you're vowing to never have.

They'd probably have much better luck getting at least sellswords or farmboys with few prospects to fill all those empty castles if it was paying gig, or if younger sons of noble houses could go and serve say 4 or 5 years and then use it as a stepping stone to either an officer's position or something else elsewhere.

My understanding of guest right probably isn't the clearest either but I read it as Ned would have been within his rights to behead Mance as a trespasser had he discovered him when he first showed up but after breaking bread and salt with him there's a heavily implied protection agreement that you won't kill each other while under the same roof.  I have no idea how that would apply to kidnapping a bride.

[vibeology]

They've been clear-ish about guest rights, but I'm guessing if you steal something or someone from your host, you invalidate your rights for protection. I think its like a temporary truce from the time you feed someone until they leave unless they break their side of it by committing a crime. So Mance being a Wildling doesn't matter as long as he doesn't break any rules from the time he has a snack to the time he leaves but if he committed a crime after he broke bread and salt, Ned could have punished him for the crime and for being a wildling.

10 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

They'd probably have much better luck getting at least sellswords or farmboys with few prospects to fill all those empty castles if it was paying gig, or if younger sons of noble houses could go and serve say 4 or 5 years and then use it as a stepping stone to either an officer's position or something else elsewhere.

They certainly would get more applicants but then the question becomes how well to they form a brotherhood? Everyone starts equally on the Wall and everyone has to work their way up. If you've got prisoners who are there for life and rich kids doing four or five years while their families send financial support you'd end up with two classes of Brothers and some very serious social problems. If a rich dad can buy their son a sweet spot in the Watch does that person deserve more chances to go beyond the wall as a ranger than some prisoner? Is the farmboy who is there for the food less important than a second son? It's one thing when the White Walkers are knocking on the door; battle can bring people together, but for the 1000 years between the first long night and now all you have are disorganized bands of Wildlings. That's not enough to overcome entrenched class issues (that still somewhat exist and cause problems even in the lifetime service version) and I think you'd see more mutinies, more people leaving Mance-style to live on the other side of the wall, more desertions and more chaos in general.

And obviously these are issues that exist and have existed in other armies now and in the past both in the world of the books and in real life but I think the fact that these men are living in harsh conditions at what many consider the end of the world would amplify these problems. For the sort of buy-in the Night's Watch seems to want, I don't see how you could make short-term service work. Now I do think everyone who says the words should be old enough to know what they're doing but I think once you're in, you need to be in for life.

[nodorothyparker]

Everything you say is true, but with the system they have now they only have a skeleton crew to sort of man three castles.  Which we're told over and over is a very real problem for them.  Clearly their recruitment campaign of "come freeze your ass off at the end of world for a voluntary life sentence among murderers and rapists, but at least you're all equal" isn't panning out so well either.  And as was remarked in the prologue, for all their talk about being a classless equal brand of brothers, the overwhelming bulk of their officers are still nobility or the bastards of nobility.

[vibeology]

I agree that there are still problems. I think there is no perfect solution. Maybe if the Wall wasn't such a shit place shorter terms could work. You'd have to teach literacy to the poorer men who come up there to start to help level out the playing field. More Maesters in general and there should be someone going to the Citadel every 5-10 years to start training. You never know when a Maester could die plus there is a huge library below Castle Black that Maesters should be working at preserving all the time. Think about what knowledge about the White Walkers has already been lost because some of those scrolls have turned to dust. You'd also need to spend serious time and money on fixing up the falling down castles and forts so that everyone had the same chance to live in comfort. It doesn't need to be a palace or anything, but everyone deserves to sleep somewhere solid and warm. The food supply would have to get better too; maybe make a law that a certain amount of every harvest or the equivalent value for crops that don't transport well all over the seven kingdoms would have to be sent to the wall. Basically, what you need is someone on the Iron Throne who knows the value of the Night's Watch and makes it a priority for the Kingdom.

And still, I think not a single one of those types of changes would change Mance's opinion about the Wall. he's just not the sort for being told what to do, where to go and what to wear. He never should have been allowed (or made more likely) to join the Watch because he doesn't have the temperament for it and as a Wildling himself, probably would never be keen on killing Wildlings.

[benteen]

The Wall needs a serious investment of money and I can see the Iron Throne not wanting to make the investment, even if the Throne itself wasn't so badly in debt. 

Change doesn't come easy at Westeros or often at all but when you've been reduced to a skeleton crew of mostly thieves, murderers and rapists, you need to start doing something different to attract new members.

[SeanC]

Narratively speaking, there's tons of things that any intelligent person could have done to fix the Night's Watch, but since the narrative requires the NW to be in decline, that can't happen.  Even when, e.g., the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne took an active interest and went so far as to reallocate a huge piece of the North to NW jurisdiction.

The most obvious thing would be that the NW's recruitment apparatus is a complete joke.  Unless you run into one of the three guys trundling around the Seven Kingdoms in their little carts, the only way to join the NW is to make your own way to Castle Black, which is rather like if you went to medieval Wessex and told the peasants there about wonderful job opportunities in the Urals.

[benteen]

Very true.

I will say though, Wandering Crow is still the best job you can get in the Night's Watch because it gets you the hell away from the Wall!

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys I

Dany and her khalasar are sailing for Pentos and the Dothraki are pretty terrified of traveling on the sea for the first time ever. Dany's bloodriders are trying to act like they aren't scared and her handmaids are soon suffering from seasickness. Dany is the only one who isn't frightened when a squall envelops them for six straight days, and this makes her think about how she was born during Westeros's greatest storm in living memory. 

Dany has a lot of experience traveling on the sea and thinks about how much she likes the water. She recalls how she once made the mistake of telling Viserys that it would be nice to be a sailor and how his response was to twist her hair until she cried while reminding her that she's the blood of the dragon.

Dany thinks about how stupid Viserys was and how he could have been the one sailing west to take back the Iron Throne. Even though Viserys treated her poorly, Dany admits to herself that she misses him at times and remembers how he'd let her climb into his bed and would tell her stories about the Seven Kingdoms.

The dragons are initially caged because of orders from the captain but Dany soon lets them out because she can tell how miserable they are being locked up. Now the Balerion has fewer rats and the captain and crew seem to take pride in having the dragons on board. 

Jorah, Arstan, and Dany discuss dragons and Jorah says that the songs suggest that dragons live a lot longer than humans. Aegon the Conqueror's Balerion the Black Dread lived until he was about two hundred years old. Balerion was so large that he could swallow an aurochs in a single gulp. Arstan says that dragons never stop growing provided they have food and freedom. Arstan says that the Targaryens built a dragonpit in King's Landing to house the dragons, and notes that the pit dragons never grew to the size of their ancestors. 

Arstan tells Dany that he served in King's Landing and saw the dragon skulls for himself. He also admits to having met Dany's father when she questions him about it. Dany asks if Arstan found her father to be "good and gentle" and Arstan hesitates but eventually says that Aerys could often be pleasant. When Dany prods him for more, Arstan admits that Aerys could be very harsh to anyone he perceived to be an enemy.

Arstan also admits to having seen Rhaegar, and Jorah seems annoyed with Arstan and indicates that he thinks Arstan is exaggerating the brushes that he's had with Dany's family. Jorah says that Arstan will next be trying to convince them that he was Rhaegar's squire. Arstan says that he's made no such claim and gives the names of the men who were Rhaegar's squires in addition to listing some of the prince's other friends and companions.

The discussion turns to Rhaegar's abilities as a warrior and Arstan delicately tells Dany that Rhaegar was good but it would probably be an exaggeration to say that he was the best. Arstan says that many things factor into how a man might best others in a tourney and indirectly makes a dig at Jorah managing to win that tourney in Lannisport years ago. Jorah tells Arstan to be careful about what he says, and Dany tells Jorah that she's sure Arstan wasn't trying offend him.

Arstan says there's a tale told about Rhaegar that will give Dany some idea of what her eldest brother was like.

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

Dany is delighted with this story but once Arstan leaves to attend Strong Belwas, Jorah cautions her to not put too much faith in the stories Arstan has been telling her. Dany thinks she should listen to all types of people, but Jorah insists that Arstan is playing her and says his story of being a squire isn't adding up. He's too old and he's too well spoken to have ended up being a squire to somebody like Strong Belwas.

Dany has to admit to herself that something about Arstan's story is off. She thinks about the list of people who want to kill her and wonders if Quaithe should be counted as an enemy or a dangerous friend. She thinks about how Jorah saved her from the poisoner and how Arstan saved her from the manticore. She wonders if Strong Belwas will save her from the next attempt on her life. She also reflects on how the dragons are bringing her more danger than protection at present.

Later that night, Jorah surprises Dany by visiting her in her cabin. He watches her feeding the dragons and using the command dracarys to get them to cook the small pieces of meat. When Jorah says dracarys, the dragons look at him and Viserion ends up sending a blast of fire in Jorah's direction. Dany tells Jorah to be careful using that word since it means dragonfire in High Valyrian. 

Jorah asks to speak with Dany alone and tells her again about his concerns regarding Arstan and Belwas. He reminds Dany that the warlocks told her she'd be betrayed and brings up the fact that a lordship is still being offered to the man who successfully kills Dany. Dany points out that the Usurper is dead but Jorah says he's only been replaced by his son Joffrey. Dany still feels inclined to trust Arstan and Belwas.

Jorah says that Arstan and Belwas are Illyrio's men and are likely loyal to him. Jorah mentions that Illyrio wasn't born wealthy and says that no men grow as rich as Illyrio through acts of kindness. He says that Illyrio is a devious and clever man, and if Dany goes to him she'll be under his power. Jorah says that clever men hatch ambitious schemes and tells her to take a lesson from Pyat Pree and Xaro Xoan Daxos.

Dany knows that Jorah means well but starts to grow angry because she feels that he's treating her like a child. She argues that it's just as foolish to not trust anyone as it is to trust too many.

Jorah says that he has a plan and thinks that they should make for Slaver's Bay where they can pick up an Unsullied army. Dany wonders why she should want an Unsullied army and Jorah tells her the story of how three thousand Unsullied were able to hold their own against a khalasar of twenty thousand Dothraki screamers.

Jorah thinks they should head for Astapor, purchase an army of Unsullied, and then head for Illyrio's. He thinks it's possible that she might be showered with gifts in Astapor as she was in Qarth and that this might be enough to pay for the army. He claims that slaves are cheap and says that she can also sell the goods that are on Illyrio's three ships. Dany seems uncomfortable with selling Illyrio's property without his consent but Jorah shrugs that away and says that Illyrio is a friend to House Targaryen. He says what use is it to Dany to have wealthy friends if they aren't willing to put their wealth at her disposal. He argues that if Illyrio were to deny her then he wouldn't be all that different from Xaro Xoan Daxos. 

Dany is starting to get excited and wonders if the captain will be willing to change course. She also wonders how Arstan and Belwas will react to the change in plans and Jorah says that it's time she finds out. As Dany starts dressing in front of Jorah, he puts his arms around her and pulls her in for a kiss. She thinks his mouth is sweet but feels he shouldn't be doing this because she's his queen. She steps back from him and tells him that she shouldn't have done that.

Jorah tells he shouldn't have waited so long and says he should have kissed her when they were in Qarth or back in the red waste. Dany tells him that it's inappropriate because she's his queen and Jorah responds by complimenting her and addressing her as Daenerys.

Jorah brings up how the warlocks told Dany that the dragon has three heads and thinks this means that there must be three dragon riders, just as it was when Aegon conquered Westeros with his sisters Rhaenys and Visenya. Dany comments that her brothers are dead. 

"Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon's wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly, Daenerys, there is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me."

[Avaleigh]

I guess the big what if for this chapter is what would have happened if Dany had gone straight to Pentos and Illyrio. Would she have marriage Faegon? Would they have tried to pick up an army together? Would the alliance with Dorne have come into play sooner? Maybe Aegon gets Arianne and they look to use Dany to make another alliance down the road? I wonder what how Houses Velaryon and Celtigar would have responded if Dany had reached out to them post Stannis's defeat in King's Landing?

Jorah makes a good point about how Illyrio is a schemer and probably didn't get rich being a nice guy.

Interesting that Dany wonders if Belwas will be the next one to save her from anassassination attempt because he does end up saving her from the poisoned locusts he just does it unwittingly. 

I get that Jorah thinks he's changed but for him to have the balls to say there's no other man in the world that will be half so true to her was ridiculously rich.

Regarding the dragon having three heads, Jorah is basically suggesting himself as a husband, but does some part of him wonder if he could be a dragonrider or does he think other husbands will end up making that happen? (I can't help but wonder how Jorah would have responded if Dany had suggested she take one husband and one wife so that it's two females and one male as it was with Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys.)

I liked Barristan trying to find a nice way to say that Aerys was anything but good and gentle. 

As far as the subject of polygamy towards the end of the chapter, I do wonder if it will come up again with regard to Rhaegar and Lyanna. I wonder what the point was in establishing that Targaryens and certain Valyrians would practice polygamy. Why not have Aegon only married to one of his sisters? Why have Maegor try to do the same thing? Why put the idea out there of Dany having more than one consort? It makes me wonder if GRRM is trying to prepare us for something. 

All in all I've enjoyed every chapter so far. This book really gets the ball rolling right away. I'm really looking forward to the next Bran chapter considering everything we've learned from the show.

[nodorothyparker]

The thing I'm really struck by on reread is how much I dislike the Arstan/Barristan thing.  This is one thing I think the show did better with him being open from the beginning about his identity even if it was mostly out of necessity since the viewing audience already knew who Barristan was.  We're told over and over how Barristan is the most honorable, the bestest fighter ever, the greatest thing since sliced bread, blah blah blah, yet when facing a what? 14-year-old girl with no army and only a couple of tiny dragons and violently seasick Dothraki for protection he won't give her any straight answers.  He can't even be honest about how the mad king got his name.  Especially since we know he's going to be trash talking nearly every single other person he served with in Westeros to ingratiate himself.

I think this has a lot to do with why I don't like Jorah later being excoriated and exiled largely on his word either.  Both of them have lied to her before serving her loyally, yet only Barristan gets to come out of it looking like a good guy.  But I think somebody touched on this phenomenon in an earlier chapter of how Barristan always seems to be out of the room when there are no choices but bad choices to be made and always conveniently gets to emerge with his honor intact.

So Barristan rant aside, I do think it's highly likely had Dany gone straight back to Illyrio, there's a fair chance that she either would have been married off again fairly quickly to Aegon or they would have had to kickstart the alliance with Dorne into high gear.   Because of the dragons, the world's much more aware of her now as she notes.  I have a hard time believing that Tywin or even Cersei would have been content to let her live as a possible rival claimant to Joffrey if they knew she was within relatively easy reach.  Sure, throughout the series they know she's in Slaver's Bay, but it's on the far side of the world and she doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon so she becomes one of those things they'll address one of these days after they've dealt with all the more immediate threats.

I did like Jorah rather brazenly suggesting himself as one of Dany's husbands.  It is fun to imagine how he really thought that would have played out given how he's been portrayed reacting to Daario on the show.

[benteen]

I guess you could say this was the beginning of the Mereenese knot since as Dany now becomes more entrenched in Essos than ever.

We also start to see the less-than-noble side of Jorah, between his skeeziness with Dany, his inability to admit what he did wrong and his refusal to accept punishment for what he's done.  His character is portrayed a lot more nobly on the show, which makes me wonder if that was the reason why they never had him kissing Dany there.

Edited June 1, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I remembered Jorah kissing her but I didn't recall just how forward he was. She's nearly naked, she tells him not to, she's clearly uncomfortable, he starts calling her by her first name even when she asks him not to (he's the one who says she's his queen), he deludes himself into thinking that he's the guy in her life who is true to her, he still seems like he doesn't get that slavery is wrong, etc. 

All in all this wasn't Jorah's finest moment. I like his character but I wasn't impressed with him here at all. On the show though, it's a little harder to see why Dany isn't into him at least in the first couple of seasons or so.

[nodorothyparker]

I didn't remember the scene being quite that squicky either.  But I've noticed that throughout the series characters are naked in front of other random characters for various reasons and no one seems to think much of it unless you're Ned waaaaay back in the very beginning being shocked at Catelyn walking around starkers in front of Maester Luwin.  So part of me thinks it's maybe not even as sexualized as it might read to a modern audience until I remember that she did make a point of covering up and hitching her blanket back up during the conversation.

[Constantinople]

On 5/31/2016 at 4:47 PM, Avaleigh said:

Jorah says that he has a plan and thinks that they should make for Slaver's Bay

Thanks a lot Jorah.

Thanks a $%@#^&* lot!

[Lady S.]

On 6/1/2016 at 8:03 AM, benteen said:

I guess you could say this was the beginning of the Mereenese knot since as Dany now becomes more entrenched in Essos than ever.

We also start to see the less-than-noble side of Jorah, between his skeeziness with Dany, his inability to admit what he did wrong and his refusal to accept punishment for what he's done.  His character is portrayed a lot more nobly on the show, which makes me wonder if that was the reason why they never had him kissing Dany there.

I think the less than noble side of Jorah when he went on about Drogo making a nice profit selling children as sex slaves, or the first time he blamed Ned for his exile and refused to accept responsibility for his mistakes. I can't see his loyalty to Dany as redeeming all that when loyalty is supposed to be based on more than lust/stalking. I wonder if he would have ever changed his mind about endangering an innocent girl and her unborn child if the teenager in question wasn't a hottie. It's hard for me to believe he would have had a change of heart based on purely moral qualms when he's never shown any shred of remorse for his other crimes.

 

On 5/31/2016 at 10:34 AM, vibeology said:

If a rich dad can buy their son a sweet spot in the Watch does that person deserve more chances to go beyond the wall as a ranger than some prisoner?

Aside from the shorter commitments, that is actually what happens. Jeor admitted that he only gave Waymar Royce the command on his first ranging because of who his father was. I also always assumed there was a bit of Stark favoritism in Jon being made Mormont's squire and given Longclaw.

 

On 5/30/2016 at 7:46 PM, Avaleigh said:

I'm surprised that a wildling would somehow end up with goods from Asshai. That was a random bit of info. I wonder where the shipment was originally headed? Funny too that it sounds like material Melisandre would wear.

At one point Davos remember trading with the wildlings in his smuggling days, so they do have contact with the wider world. Or I guess the ship could have just been blown way off course when it was wrecked.

[vibeology]

41 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Aside from the shorter commitments, that is actually what happens. Jeor admitted that he only gave Waymar Royce the command on his first ranging because of who his father was. I also always assumed there was a bit of Stark favoritism in Jon being made Mormont's squire and given Longclaw.

And I recognize that it's an existing issue, but I think with short term commitments that sort of thing would only get worse. Royce should never have been in command of that mission in the first prologue and while I don't know if anything could have saved them from White Walkers, he certainly made every wrong decision. If a rich second son is at the wall and the Lord Commander knows he's only got a year left before he goes home, why not try to appeal to that guy? Once he leaves the Wall, he might send money or supplies. Or he might decide to stick around and that's an extra body. I think short-term commitments are more likely to grow that existing problem rather than help it.

Jon, I think, ended up being Mormont's squire because of who he is, but also because of what who he is means. He's literate so he can take notes, write letters, read correspondence. He knows all the House sigils so he can look at a wax seal and tell Mormont who a raven is from before its open. He has been around good weapons and horses all his life so he knows what it takes to take care of them. Jon came into the job with the education you need because he's castle raised and yes, Mormont would trust the Starks to teach him well. Jon has those advantages; that's one of the reasons I think more training like that is important for every man who joins the watch. I doubt, for example, Edd can read so even if he ends up being Lord Commander he's not going to be very effective at important parts of the job.

[Lady S.]

3 minutes ago, vibeology said:

And I recognize that it's an existing issue, but I think with short term commitments that sort of thing would only get worse. Royce should never have been in command of that mission in the first prologue and while I don't know if anything could have saved them from White Walkers, he certainly made every wrong decision. If a rich second son is at the wall and the Lord Commander knows he's only got a year left before he goes home, why not try to appeal to that guy? Once he leaves the Wall, he might send money or supplies. Or he might decide to stick around and that's an extra body. I think short-term commitments are more likely to grow that existing problem rather than help it.

They wouldn't need different commitments if not for the celibacy and giving up family ties bullshit. There's no good reason they shouldn't be allowed to get married and have kids. Being detached from regular 7K business has only encouraged the 7K to ignore them. I really doubt the NW or its vows will remain in its present form when they have to re-build after the second Long Night. There's a reason Aemon's love is the death of duty line didn't sound right to Jon. It's shouldn't be an either/or concept when protecting humanity (from either the true enemies or thieving, raping murdering wildlings) is in everyone's self-interest.

[SeanC]

The other thing is that if the NW could have kids they could perhaps make some headway toward perpetuating themselves.

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

They wouldn't need different commitments if not for the celibacy and giving up family ties bullshit. There's no good reason they shouldn't be allowed to get married and have kids.

A, if not the, primary reason the Church in the West started imposing priestly celibacy is that priests were treating Church property, including churches themselves, as their own.

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

The other thing is that if the NW could have kids they could perhaps make some headway toward perpetuating themselves.

And it would offset the terrible living conditions. Noblemen's superfluous sons would have reason to choose the NW over the Citadel or the Faith if they wanted to be able to get married. As it is, there's the lure of glory and adventure killing wildlings vs. the downsides of freezing your ass at the end of the world in a glorified penal colony. 

[benteen]

Quote

I think the less than noble side of Jorah when he went on about Drogo making a nice profit selling children as sex slaves, or the first time he blamed Ned for his exile and refused to accept responsibility for his mistakes. I can't see his loyalty to Dany as redeeming all that when loyalty is supposed to be based on more than lust/stalking. I wonder if he would have ever changed his mind about endangering an innocent girl and her unborn child if the teenager in question wasn't a hottie. It's hard for me to believe he would have had a change of heart based on purely moral qualms when he's never shown any shred of remorse for his other crimes.

You're right, Lady S.  The less than noble side of Jorah has popped up quite a bit in the first two books.  But I think this was the book where he was truly "unmasked" and he went full unrepentant sleaze.  When we see him next in A Dance with Dragons, isn't he with a young prostitute who looks a lot like Dany?

[Lady S.]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

You're right, Lady S.  The less than noble side of Jorah has popped up quite a bit in the first two books.  But I think this was the book where he was truly "unmasked" and he went full unrepentant sleaze.  When we see him next in A Dance with Dragons, isn't he with a young prostitute who looks a lot like Dany?

Yep, and Dany herself is supposed to remind him of Lynesse. 

[Avaleigh]

Bran I

Bran is in the woods hunting in Summer's skin. He thinks about how he once used to be apart of a pack. He thinks of the pack as having originally been five plus one and gets sad when he thinks about how Lady is gone. He can still sense his brothers and sister even though they've been separated. He also thinks about Ghost having no voice and how he would always stand apart from the others.

He sees a pack of wolves eating a deer and thinks of the smaller wolves as his cousins. He attacks the pack so that he can eat the deer that they've killed. He wins the fight and sinks his teeth into the dead animal in victory. He hears Hodor's voice calling to him but isn't ready to leave Summer's skin. Hodor finally shakes Bran awake and Bran shouts angrily at Hodor for waking him. Hodor seems like he isn't sure what he did wrong.

Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds are camping out in the vault of an abandoned watch tower and Meera is out hunting for food. Jojen warns Bran that he's been staying too long in Summer's skin. He asks Bran if he remembered to mark the trees while he was warged into Summer and Bran has to admit that he forgot, as usual. Jojen is always asking Bran to remember to do small tasks while he's in Summer's skin but once Bran opens his third eye, the things that Jojen asks him to do suddenly seem unimportant.

Jojen seems concerned that Bran is going to lose his identity if he stays in Summer's skin too long. He asks Bran to identify himself, so Bran tells Jojen who he is and adds that he's a Prince of Winterfell. Bran wonders how he can be a prince of someplace that he might not ever see again. Jojen tells Bran that he needs to remember himself or his wolf will end up consuming him. 

Bran is eager to warg back into Summer but Jojen tells him not to. He reminds Bran that he needs to eat and can't live on what his wolf consumes. Bran feels resentful towards Jojen for always pulling him back and thinks that Jojen doesn't understand what it's like for him since he isn't a warg.

Meera returns with dinner and Bran isn't enthused about having to eat more frogs. He remembers what the two Walders used to say about people who eat frogs and wonders if the boys are dead. Bran's sulky mood goes away when Meera returns and he thinks about how she always knows how to make him smile. He thinks about how how high spirited Meera is and how Jojen is seemingly the only person who is capable of making her feel angry or scared. Bran thinks that Jojen can scare practically anyone and thinks about how Jojen's dreams come true. He then considers how Jojen had a dream about him, Bran, dying and notes that it didn't come true.

Jojen announces that they should leave the watchtower tomorrow and Meera isn't happy to hear this. She asks why they should leave and argues that they're safe where they are. Jojen says that this isn't where they're supposed to be but admits that he hasn't had a recent green dream to influence his decision. 

Meera knows that Jojen wants to head for the Wall and the three-eyed crow and suggests that they should get horses if they really want to travel that far. Jojen doesn't think it's safe to risk trying to obtain horses and feels it's better for them to continue traveling on foot while they avoid being seen. Meera thinks it doesn't make sense for them to travel when they have no idea where they're even going. Jojen suggests it's possible that the three-eyed crow will find them. 

They hear a wolf howl in the distance and Jojen asks Bran if it's Summer. Bran recognizes that it isn't Summer's howl and is privately contemptuous that Jojen isn't able to tell the difference between the howl of a wolf and a direwolf. He wonders why they always listen to Jojen and suggests they get horses as Meera suggests and either make for White Harbor or the Last Hearth. 

Hodor starts repeating the only word he ever says, so Bran tells him to go outside and train with his sword. 

Bran asks why he needs a teacher other than Jojen and Jojen explains that now that Bran's third eye is open, he's at risk for having his wolf consume him. He says that Bran bends to Summer's will rather than it being the other way around. Bran basically tells Jojen to give him a break and reminds him that he's only nine. Jojen says that's fair enough but reminds Bran that winter is coming. 

Jojen says that he isn't a true greenseer and says he's 'only a boy who dreams'. According to Jojen, greenseers are wargs too and he says that the strongest greenseers could wear the skin of any beast in addition to being able to see through the eyes of weirwoods. Jojen says that everyone has their gifts and tells Bran that he has the potential to be more than him with the right training. He says that there's no telling how high Bran might fly with the right teacher.

Meera tells Bran that they can wait out the war in the abandoned watchtower but says that he'll only be able to learn what Jojen can teach him, and Jojen has already explained that he can only teach Bran so much. If they try to go to the Umbers or the Manderlys then they risk being taken. Meera tells Bran that he's their prince and they swore a vow to him, so Bran gets to make the call on where they go next.

Bran is surprised that the Reeds are willing to go where he wants and thinks the situation through the way he imagines his father might have. He thinks that they would be safe with the Karstarks , Umbers, or Manderlys but realizes that these people might be dead for all he knows. He also thinks about how they'll die if they're caught by the ironmen or Ramsay Snow.

Bran starts crying when he thinks about how he'll still be a cripple no matter where they end up heading. He tells the Reeds that the wants to fly and asks them to take him to the three eyed crow.

[Avaleigh]

More Stark tears. I do have to sometimes remind myself of the ages of the characters, so I liked Bran telling Jojen, dude, I'm nine, cut me some freaking slack. It feels very realistic to me too that he's still devastated and emotional about his legs. 

Bran is clearly already taken with Meera. It's nice how unflappable she is for the most part. How nice too for Bran that she can always make him feel better. I think the show has made me forget how big the age gap is between them.

I feel sorry for Jojen. I can't help but think that he's never had any friends other than Bran before and Bran seems to get annoyed with him on a regular basis. Jojen is dedicating his life at this point to helping Bran so I wish that Bran seemed a bit more appreciative the way thay he is with Meera.

I felt a little sorry for Hodor too. It's probably because I have 'Hold the door!' in my head but I winced when Bran yelled at Hodor, felt bad when he was made to go outside for basically being annoying, and then again when Jojen called hom simple minded. I know that he is but it still seemed sort of rude.

The big what if out of this chapter is what if Bran had made a different choice? What would have happened if he'd chosen White Harbor? Would Bloodraven have intervened? Would Jojen have had a green dream? 

I wonder what would have happened if Bran had made for Karhold not knowing about the dust up that's about to happen with Rickard? How would they have responded? 

Bran's thoughts about the direwolves when he's in Summer's skin were interesting. He thinks of Ghost as not being one of them but Ghost is from the same litter. It's strange that he isn't technically considered to be a part of the pack since their parents are the same which isn't the case with Jon's parents. The sentiment is repeated too. He says first the pack was five and then it went down to four. Ghost is mentioned as a plus one both times.

Going back to Jojen, I wonder if he's seen his death before and that's one of the reasons he comes across as rather melancholy. It's true that he doesn't seem like a thirteen year old, not even in that world. Robb at fourteen struck me as more immature. I think of Rodrik chastising him for childishly waving that sword around for no reason. Jojen seems like he was born serious. 

Why can't Bloodraven come to Jojen and Bran both with the same idea to get them on the path to finding the cave instead of having them wandering around not knowing for sure where they should go besides north?

[nodorothyparker]

Man, the whole "Hold the door" thing really impacts how you read any scene Hodor's in.  I'll be honest in the past I never gave him a ton of thought beyond being vaguely bothered that Bran tended to sometimes treat him like a pack mule and idly wondering about the consent and violation issues of warging into someone and using their body to do things you know they wouldn't want to do. 

I do like Bran wondering why any of them listen to Jojen because I wonder too.  He's just such an odd, creepy sort of kid and half the time he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about or at least can't explain it.  But he showed up out seemingly of the blue, claimed to have these greendreams telling him Very Important Things, and now here they are trekking through the North on foot toward what?  An unknown point north of the Wall toward ... something?  Meera is at least practical and useful and you sometimes get the idea she's just about had it up to here with her brother and all his weird pronouncements too.

This is one of those chapters that cements for me that I'm reading mostly for the story and the characters and not because I really care all that much about the fantastical elements of it.