Poldark: Now, Then, and Before (the Books, the Original Series, and the Remake)

[Milz]

 The 1970s Poldark was, like much British drama of that day, stagey. It really was a lot like watching a play that had been videotaped, with occasional outdoor interludes.

 

 

I agree and considering that most of the actors/actresses were stage actors/actresses (most of the cast of I Claudius were current or former members of the RSC), it makes sense.

 The 1970s Poldark was, like much British drama of that day, stagey. It really was a lot like watching a play that had been videotaped, with occasional outdoor interludes.

 

 

I agree and considering that most of the actors/actresses were stage actors/actresses (most of the cast of I Claudius were current or former members of the RSC), it makes sense.

 

Regarding Caroline....I have to wonder why Warleggan never made a play for her hand in marriage.

[Llywela]

I agree and considering that most of the actors/actresses were stage actors/actresses (most of the cast of I Claudius were current or former members of the RSC), it makes sense.

 

Regarding Caroline....I have to wonder why Warleggan never made a play for her hand in marriage.

George always had eyes only for Elizabeth, even when she was still married to Francis.

 

In the 1970s, most shows were very set-based and a lot of television actors still had theatrical backgrounds, because that was how the profession developed - I know from Doctor Who of the era that TV acting was more lucrative but still seen as kind of a step down, the theatre was still the place to be. The TV industry was still very young, and the stagey acting is just what the fashion was at the time - partly because of the theatrical backgrounds of the actors, but also because the limitations of staging and technology required it. The industry has matured and developed since then, technology has advanced in leaps and bounds, and acting styles have changed accordingly. It doesn't mean the way they did it back then was wrong, just different - 20 years from now the industry and acting styles will have moved forward again and we'll look back on today's shows and think how old-fashioned they look, as well.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

George always had eyes only for Elizabeth, even when she was still married to Francis.

 

In the 1970s, most shows were very set-based and a lot of television actors still had theatrical backgrounds, because that was how the profession developed - I know from Doctor Who of the era that TV acting was more lucrative but still seen as kind of a step down, the theatre was still the place to be. The TV industry was still very young, and the stagey acting is just what the fashion was at the time - partly because of the theatrical backgrounds of the actors, but also because the limitations of staging and technology required it. The industry has matured and developed since then, technology has advanced in leaps and bounds, and acting styles have changed accordingly. It doesn't mean the way they did it back then was wrong, just different - 20 years from now the industry and acting styles will have moved forward again and we'll look back on today's shows and think how old-fashioned they look, as well.

 

The book made it very clear George fancied Elizabeth, especially when Elizabeth played the harp. Warleggan's eyes were glued to her.

 

I actually like the "stagey" productions and that the majority of the actors/actresses had stage backgrounds because they were able to get their point across with less dramatically pained looks and wretched vocal tricks, imo. Even in the late 70s with Brideshead and into the 80s with Jewel in the Crown, the productions were less stagey, but the acting still was. So for me, the acting was tighter with a great emphasis on dialogue and the delivery of that dialogue rather than far away gazes and knitted eyebrows.

[skyways]

Not really! Hearing Ellis shout ' WHAT NEWS OF MY FATHER'?  as I tuned in chased the sleep from my eyes!! So loud his voice was in speaking that simple sentence.

[Llywela]

Not really! Hearing Ellis shout ' WHAT NEWS OF MY FATHER'?  as I tuned in chased the sleep from my eyes!! So loud his voice was in speaking that simple sentence.

Isn't that the scene with the old notary, Nat Pearce, who was deaf? Or in the coach, where he'd be shouting to be heard above the clatter of the carriage? Any shouting is usually for a good reason. But the emphasis would always be on clear diction to make sure the dialogue could be heard - had to be, they didn't have the refined mic system we have now, or the dynamic cameras.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Not really! Hearing Ellis shout ' WHAT NEWS OF MY FATHER'?  as I tuned in chased the sleep from my eyes!! So loud his voice was in speaking that simple sentence.

 

As opposed to now, when you need to increase the volume or turn on the closed captioning to hear/see what was said. ;-)

 

As a child I used to read a newspaper comic strip called "Broom Hilda" (she was a witch and had friends: Gaylord an eye-glasses wearing vulture and Erwin a fuzzy monster.) In one strip, Broom Hilda, Erwin and Gaylord are watching tv. The dialogue balloon from the tv is written in dots. The next frame the dialogue balloon has large letters that fill up the entire balloon. The following frame the dialogue balloon is back to the dots. In the final frame, Broom says something like I can't stand it when the commercials are louder than the show.

[skyways]

Ellis himself later said he used to cringe watching himself and he felt his acting was too theatrical. He said he felt like saying to his younger self to 'tone it down a bit'.

[Llywela]

Ellis himself later said he used to cringe watching himself and he felt his acting was too theatrical. He said he felt like saying to his younger self to 'tone it down a bit'.

I'm sure a lot of actors feel much the same way, looking back over their past jobs - especially as time goes by and acting styles and standards change. Today's actors will feel much the same way in 20 years time, looking back at today's shows with eyes that have become accustomed to the way things are done in the future. Acting styles and fashions change all the time, as does the technology used to capture them.

[Milz]

I'm sure a lot of actors feel much the same way, looking back over their past jobs - especially as time goes by and acting styles and standards change. Today's actors will feel much the same way in 20 years time, looking back at today's shows with eyes that have become accustomed to the way things are done in the future. Acting styles and fashions change all the time, as does the technology used to capture them.

 

Derek Jacobi said that if he could talk to his younger self, he would tell him to play Hamlet differently. So I think there is that kind of regret, to the point that some actors say they don't watch themselves.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Milz

[magdalene]

I am quite taken with the new series but I can't get used to this George. He looks like little Lord Fauntleroys older, sneering brother and is being played like a nasty aristocrat. Everything about him feels wrong to me.

[Nampara]

I am quite taken with the new series but I can't get used to this George. He looks like little Lord Fauntleroys older, sneering brother and is being played like a nasty aristocrat. Everything about him feels wrong to me.

 

You mean you don't care for the portrayal of Iago Warleggan?

[magdalene]

You mean you don't care for the portrayal of Iago Warleggan?

Can't say that I do.  The way that I always understood the character is that he is rich but not truly in Poldarks class and that he feels festering resentment towards the gentry. It must especially rankle when the impoverished gentry associates with families like the Warleggans who have made their fortunes instead of inheriting land like true gentlemen without considering them truly to "belong".  The old series was very good at making you dislike George as Ross' antagonist while making you understand that the British class system breeds discontent and resentment in a man like George.  The new George is just totally miscast.

[Greta]

I agree that the lack of fleshing-out of the supporting characters is a flaw of the new series, especially regarding the non-upper-class ones. The original had much, much more about people like Jud and Prudie, Mark Daniel, the Martins, and as a result it was much more 'gritty' and less 'pretty romance novel'.

 

 

In the book we are told Margaret married a rich man who died at the age of 40 not long after. At the time of the card party she is therefore a wealthy widow who is permitted to move in upper-class circles.

This sounds like a much more interesting story than the Ross N' Demelza 4-eva one I see each week (yet keep watching for some reason). I would rather see a series focused on Francis, Elizabeth, George, Margaret, Ruth, Ruth's milquetoast husband, that awful golddigging actress, her idiot new husband, and the doctor who is going to be banging her soon, with only snippets of Ross and Demelza.

If killing his last wife wasn't enough to dampen Verity's interest in Blamey, I would have thought his dubious prioritization of spewing out his feelings over getting the heck of Rioting Dodge would have indicated their future children would not be bright.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Greta

[Llywela]

Episode five just aired in America, so Julia has now been born. Scanning the episode thread this morning reminded me how different the circumstances of Julia's birth are in every version of the story - with both adaptations pretty much skimming over it, rather than delving into the story as told in the book.

 

In P75 we catch a glimpse of a sweaty labouring Demelza and then skip straight to Dr Choake telling Ross he has a daughter - all very amicable, the doctor appears to have attended the birth quite satisfactorily. At Julia's christening we then see Ross meet Dwight Enys for the first time, hitting it off immediately, and then the play follows, bringing Keren into the mix. It's a bit perfunctory, moving the plot forward without much depth (the early stages of Ross and Demelza's marriage aren't really covered by P75). Events follow the same order and pattern as the book, with the exception of Choake's successful attendance at the birth.

 

In P15 we've already seen Dwight introduced as an old friend of Ross. The play comes first, with Demelza feeling a twinge and deciding to walk home. Ross sits through the rest of the play before Dwight thinks to mention that he might want to get home - implying that he noticed Demelza's condition, but there is no suggestion that Dwight or any other doctor should be attending the birth. Ross then rushes home to find that in the time it took for him to watch the rest of the play and then gallop home on horseback, Demelza has had time to walk home on foot while heavily pregnant and in labour, and has gone through her entire labour, giving birth just as he enters the house, apparently attended only by Prudie and Jinny. Again, it's perfunctory, moving the plot forward without much depth. Here, the sequence of events is jumbled up enormously, for no real purpose, with the entire timeline altered.

 

There's a lot more character and social content to the story in the book, where Julia's birth takes up an entire chapter. Demelza goes into labour in the night and wakes Ross, who flies into instant first time father panic - it's a side of him we haven't really seen before, so it helps inform his character beyond what we already know. He sends Jud for Dr Choake, who is reluctant to come out in the middle of the night, but this refusal awakens some tiny, rarely seen spark of loyalty in Jud, who insists - again, good character material for Jud, a new side of him too. Choake comes, examines Demelza, decides nothing is going to happen till after lunch, goes home for breakfast without telling anyone he's going, reminding us how useless he is. Ross is furious, and still panicking. He asks Jinny who attended her births - her mother, and Jinny reels off a string of other births Mrs Zacky's attended. This is social content, reminding us that the poor can't afford actual doctors, so must make do among themselves. Jinny goes to get Mrs Zacky, leaving her baby daughter to be watched by Ross, who panics all the more. He leaves the baby with Jud and goes up to see Demelza, but she won't have him in the room. Jinny and Mrs Zacky arrive with about half a dozen more children - there was no one to leave them with. Again, social content. They go to Demelza. Ross now has a kitchen full of children, and no idea what to do with them, and his reaction to all these small people is extremely funny. Panic, panic - he can't take any more, needs something to do to keep himself busy - his very real panic over Demelza's safety during her delivery demonstrates his feelings for her loud and clear. He decides to go bring Dr Choake back, furious at the man for leaving when he'd been engaged to attend the entire birth. By now a massive storm is blowing up - it isn't safe to ride. He walks, and finds the Choakes having breakfast. Dr Choake is a traditional physician - if he's said nothing will happen till after lunch, that's that and how dare anyone suggest otherwise. Ross is having none of it and drags him out into the storm - Choake's hat and wig promptly blow away, adding a dash of humour to proceedings. Halfway back they find Verity also struggling to Nampara on foot, and she gives a hilarious rendition of the local grapevine that brought the news to her ears - character insight to Verity, that she'd make the effort to get there on foot in such a storm, for Demelza's sake. Ross has to take her arm to keep her upright in the storm. They arrive just as the baby is born, the poor little thing all bruised from a difficult delivery. Then come the christenings. At the first, as portrayed in P75, Ross meets Dwight Enys for the first time, attending as a guest of the Pascoes with whom he is staying for the interim having only just returned to Cornwall - they don't interact much here, but meet again by chance in Truro the following day, which is the true birth of their lifelong friendship. At the second, Ross hires the theatre company to put on a show and here we first meet Keren, seeing her through the eyes of various characters, who all read her differently, and launching Mark Daniel's big storyline.

 

It's a lengthy event, and easy to see why it was cut down to bare bones for both TV adaptations, but there's a lot of strong content in there as well as an entertaining story, so it's a shame to see it so reduced. It's also important to the plot - the circumstances of Julia's birth drive a massive wedge between Ross and Dr Choake, leading Choake to sell his shares in Wheal Leisure and also paving the way for Ross's close friendship with Dwight, who he welcomes with open arms as a refreshing alternative to Choake, being recently qualified, full of new ideas, and, importantly, like-minded - Ross meets precious few like-minded folk and is fiercely loyal to those he does find.

 

So anyway, that was just a little direct comparison that I thought was interesting.

 

(edited much later to add a bit of clarification I wasn't capable of at 7am!)

Edited July 20, 2015 by Llywela

[Nidratime]

Elizabeth is still coming across as too sympathetic a character IMO....

 

 

Yeah, this whole "let's show sisterly bonding" is getting out of hand because I think it's leading to the conclusion that everything is all right between Elizabeth and Demelza, which isn't the truth. Demelza and Verity? Yes, they do legitimately bond. But, there's always some tension between the former two.

[Milz]

For a production which is purportedly more faithful to the book, they certainly veered from the book with Julia's birth and Enys' arrival.

 

It also looks like they've changed the book sequence by introducing plots from Warleggan (book 4) into this.

 

 

Demelza has had time to walk home on foot while heavily pregnant and in labour, and has gone through her entire labour, giving birth just as he enters the house, apparently attended only by Prudie and Jinny. Again, it's perfunctory, moving the plot forward without much depth.

 

Yes, for someone who's given birth for the first time, Demelza's labor is extraordinarily quick----or that was one looooooooong play.

[Llywela]

As I wrote above, if something isn't productive, it's losing money (or breaking even) and that isn't good business sense, short term or long term). According to page 11 on this site (http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1981/5/cj1n1-7.pdf) , land was taxed and by 1801 there was a property and income tax. So sure the Warleggans can close Grambler, but they will still lose money because they will have to pay taxes on it. In other words, the longer Grambler sits redundant the more money they lose. And the fact that they accepted Grambler shows me that they aren't as clever as they are made out to be. OR the writers messed up by making these plot changes.

Ah, here's the misunderstanding. What the Warleggans have gained ownership of is the mine only, the company, not the land on which it stands (which still belongs to the Trenwith Poldarks). They pay no tax on it and are losing no money on it whatsoever (and we are nowhere near 1801 at present in the story, btw, it is still the 1780s). It is simply out of business, a rival shut down. Despite the alteration to the original story, what happened here with Grambler is exactly how the Warleggans operate - Milz, I know you've read the books, so you should have seen there many such examples of this kind of business finangling. It's the reason Ross doesn't want them getting their hooks into Wheal Leisure.

 

Also, it isn't as if they set out to acquire Grambler as a business venture. This wasn't a deliberate investment in a failing venture, just an opportunity that arose and was taken advantage of. Francis choosing to gamble the mine couldn't have been predicted. They simply took the opportunity when it was presented. Grambler would have closed eventually anyway, this merely hastened the demise and took another rival out of the market that much sooner (yes, Wheal Leisure is a different mine, but the principle of striking another load is what any business rival such as the Warleggans would not want to see at Grambler, however unlikely the prospect). Sheer opportunism.

I agree it is getting circular.  One point of clarification - did Francis not lose Grambler in the book?  I don't mean the mechanism by which Francis lost it, I mean did he not lose Grambler to the Warleggans?  Because, if so, I am not sure how the writers of this production can be blamed for what would seem to be a major plot point. But if not, then, yes, it seems reasonable to wonder why they would change that.

I did put something about this behind a spoiler tag earlier, but I'm going to say it openly now because I think this discussion requires it. In the book Grambler closes due to sheer economic pressure - the mine reaches the point where it isn't just unprofitable, but is actively haemorrhaging money, and so has to close because Francis can no longer afford to keep it open. Francis does not lose it in a card game. However, the basic business tactic of acquiring a rival venture and then closing it is very much the business practice of the Warleggans, and so the way the writers have applied that here is in character for the family. The change is hugely damaging to Francis's character but is very believable for the Warleggans and a perfectly credible business tactic, so I'm not sure what the argument really is.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Llywela

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I did put something about this behind a spoiler tag earlier, but I'm going to say it openly now because I think this discussion requires it. In the book Grambler closes due to sheer economic pressure - the mine reaches the point where it isn't just unprofitable, but is actively haemorrhaging money, and so has to close. Francis does not lose it in a card game. However, the basic business tactic of acquiring a rival venture and then closing it is very much the business practice of the Warleggans, and so the way the writers have applied that here is in character for the family.

 

Thanks, Llywela. I had read the spoiler tag and so was aware of the closure, I just wasn't sure if it was also lost to the Warleggans. Thanks for the clarification and also for the explanation that this was in character for the Warleggans business model. Likely the writers of this production wanted to provide an example of the Warleggans amoral business practices but wanted to do so in a way that would resonate with the viewers. While previous individuals that they have ruined have been mentioned, they were just names about which the viewers don't really care.

[Llywela]

Likely the writers of this production wanted to provide an example of the Warleggans amoral business practices but wanted to do so in a way that would resonate with the viewers. While previous individuals that they have ruined have been mentioned, they were just names about which the viewers don't really care.

Uh huh. And then they tied it to Francis's gambling habit for plot expediency, without regard for the damage it does to his character, which has been well and truly assassinated by this production - all his flaws exaggerated, with none of his finer qualities drawn out to offer any balance.

 

Talking of milquetoasts, I was primed for Dr Dwight to be some kind of hottie. What a let down!

1975 Dwight was such a cutie! Good looking and bursting with screen-presence and personality. This Dwight is nice enough to look at, but disappointingly bland - he's been written with pretty much no personality or presence at all. A let down indeed - and worrying, as he's a more important character than you'd realise on this showing. Edited July 21, 2015 by photo fox

[Milz]

I'm playing by the rules in the episode threads and only raising questions about the episodes.  I know what's supposed to happen and why. That's why it makes no sense to me why the Warleggans would allow Francis to put up a mine that's been worked out like Grambler. If Grambler was still producing, it would make complete sense. But it's not.

 

It's like Mark and the cottage. WTF? Why is the cottage built so far away from Mellin? Why is it built near Mingoose? WTF is a Mingoose? If I'm watching P15 without having read the books or watched P75 I would be asking those questions. If it was mentioned that there was an obscure law that allowed a man to own a home provided he built it in a day, I certainly didn't hear it.

[Llywela]

I'm playing by the rules in the episode threads and only raising questions about the episodes.  I know what's supposed to happen and why. That's why it makes no sense to me why the Warleggans would allow Francis to put up a mine that's been worked out like Grambler. If Grambler was still producing, it would make complete sense. But it's not.

 

It's like Mark and the cottage. WTF? Why is the cottage built so far away from Mellin? Why is it built near Mingoose? WTF is a Mingoose? If I'm watching P15 without having read the books or watched P75 I would be asking those questions. If it was mentioned that there was an obscure law that allowed a man to own a home provided he built it in a day, I certainly didn't hear it.

Well. I'm kind of played out and burned on this subject (a bit like Grambler) and evidently don't explain myself very well, so I apologise for that. This is my understanding of it as it played out on-screen and in relation to the business tactics employed by the Warleggans in the books. The whole thing happened in the heat of a very intense game of cards, rather than in the cool rational light of day. Sanson was in for the kill at that point. I honestly think it was just sheer opportunism. The mine wasn't worth anything as a business, but it was of value to the Warleggans to see it close earlier than it might otherwise have done, and so worth it just for that. Plus, importantly, there's just the sheer enjoyment value of being able to ruin a landed gentleman of ancient stock. That's why Sanson took the bet, not because he had any interest in owning and attempting to run the mine or expected to get anything out of it - he was just in for the kill, taking Francis for everything he had. And at that point all he had was a dying old mine. So Sanson took that, too. Because he could. And because he knew it would please his uncle to see Francis lose it, to be able to shut it down immediately and put yet another competitor out of business. Grambler was failing, but still producing, not completely worked out yet - unlike in the book where it simply dies on its own. Maybe it wouldn't have lasted much longer, but as long as it continued production it was still sending ore to the markets, competition for Warleggan mines, so they took the opportunity to shut it down when it came along (profit margins not big enough for the Warleggans to want to run it, but Francis would have kept it going as long as possible, so it would have lasted a while longer). Taking the bet was never intended as an investment in the mine. It was just taking an opportunity that arose to see off a competitor. And that does make sense to me, because gaining control of and then shutting down the competition is standard Warleggan practice all through the books - and a tactic still employed by many big businesses to this day. Someone who understands business could no doubt explain it better than me!

 

ETA - probably worth adding that book!George and P75!George would never have sanctioned taking the mine from Francis, because of the knock-on effect on Elizabeth. It's why he never called in Francis's loans, long after he'd have stripped the assets from anyone else. It can be tough in the episode threads to remember that unspoiled viewers there are reacting in numerous cases to very different characters than the ones I know. P15!George and P15!Francis are different personalities than in other versions of the story, Francis especially.

 

Mingoose is one of the big houses of the district - I forget who lives there. The Trenegloses, perhaps? Or Sir John Trevaunance? Dr Choake? I'm not sure. In P15 I thought Mark took one of the derelict Mellin cottages, rather than building a house from scratch - that was what it looked like to me, anyway: he was just repairing it in time for the wedding. But it wasn't made particularly clear, as I recall. P75 does make it clearer that he is building the house from the ground up, and wants to do it inside 24 hours because the law then gives him ownership of the freehold (cheeky, since it's on Ross's land!) but has him make the request of Ross - it doesn't explain why the house is in the middle of nowhere, though. In the book, it is very significant that Ross is away from home when he comes with the request, meaning that Demelza has to make the decision on her own - it's the first really big decision she's had to make as mistress of Nampara, worried whether or not it's the right thing to do, wondering what Ross would do. Part of her learning curve. And there we are told why Mark chooses an isolated spot, because after living cheek-by-jowl with not only a large family but all their neighbours all his life, he wants some privacy for him and Keren. Another of those scenarios where every version of the story is slightly different!

Edited July 21, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

I wrote in the thread that for the Warleggans accepting Grambler was bad if it was done for business purposes, but if it was done to be asses, then sure why not. I also thought that when Ross stood up he did so because he saw Sansone cheating. but he didn't.

 

Book George and P75 George is in love with Elizabeth. But I don't detect that in P15. This indifference (if it can be called that) might mean the Elizabeth-George marriage and the Elizabeth rape will be much different than the books or P75 (Ross will come out looking better than he should)

 

Mark's cottage in P15 was in a lonely stretch of land far from Mellin but close to Mingoose (I think the Treneglos' own that). And he and some of the other miners had been working on it for a week. IIRC, in the book, the fact that Mark had to built it quickly was the reason why the cottage was angled in a way that no sunlight entered it, which contributed to Keren's unhappiness.

[Llywela]

I wrote in the thread that for the Warleggans accepting Grambler was bad if it was done for business purposes, but if it was done to be asses, then sure why not.

I really think it was both. For Sanson, it represented total victory in the game, and the chance to please his uncle. For the Warleggans, it meant a) one in the eye to the Poldarks, gentry they used to have to look up to, and b) the opportunity to take a competitor out of play sooner rather than later. At no cost, because whatever cash Sanson put into that game, he'd more than made back. Shutting the mine down cost them nothing, but gained them victory. It was never about Grambler as a going concern - but I think it matters that in this version, Grambler was still a going concern at the time Francis lost it. It wasn't profitable, and was on its last legs, but was still producing ore and that's what interested the Warleggans when he put it up as a stake: stopping that ore from reaching the market. Grambler wasn't producing enough for them to want to take it on and run it, but it was still producing, which made it a competitor of the more profitable mines that they already own. The outcome of the card game gave them the chance to remove that minor but irritating competitor, so they did. Because they could.

 

It really is a very different story than in the books or P75, so that's how I make sense of it. And the change to the storyline also changes the characters, so it's all weird and difficult to get your head around.

 

I really thought Mark was repairing a cottage at the end of the Mellin row, but clearly I wasn't looking very hard! It was dark and I was distracted by it being a repair job rather than the hurried building frenzy it should have been

 

It's funny. P75 has the reputation of changing the story from the books, but it mostly just makes one very big change and thereafter increasingly tries to keep everything else as close as possible, especially the characters. P15 markets itself as being more faithful to the books, but that is only true in broad brushstrokes whereas in the fine detail it makes a lot of changes that look small because they don't impact on the overall plot but actually have a really big impact in terms of characters and motivations, which matters. And that makes it hard to judge, because I get the versions jumbled up - it's hard to respond to it as a standalone story, because it isn't, and yet it is, so to speak. It is the same story, but these are not the characters I know in quite a number of cases. It's like if someone made a version of Pride and Prejudice where the overall plot was the same, but Jane was portrayed as a bossy cow and Elizabeth a painfully shy drip, Bingley a short-tempered bore, etc, and the sequence of events was jumbled up. You could tell the story that way, and could twist it to make sense, but it would feel really weird for anyone watching who knows who those characters are from the source material and other adaptations. It sets up this weird cognitive dissonance.

[Nidratime]

It's funny. P75 has the reputation of changing the story from the books, but it mostly just makes one very big change and thereafter increasingly tries to keep everything else as close as possible, especially the characters. P15 markets itself as being more faithful to the books, but that is only true in broad brushstrokes whereas in the fine detail it makes a lot of changes that look small because they don't impact on the overall plot but actually have a really big impact in terms of characters and motivations, which matters.

 

 

I don't know why the 1975 series made the one big change they did, although I actually enjoyed it. However, since Winston Graham was alive to protest and request that they keep everything else as close to the books as possible, they clearly did so after that. Maybe if Graham were alive today, he'd be equally upset and protest again. Having your children around, saying "dad would like this," is not the same thing as the author himself. 

[Milz]

I don't know why the 1975 series made the one big change they did, although I actually enjoyed it. However, since Winston Graham was alive to protest and request that they keep everything else as close to the books as possible, they clearly did so after that. Maybe if Graham were alive today, he'd be equally upset and protest again. Having your children around, saying "dad would like this," is not the same thing as the author himself. 

 

other than Ross and Demelza's shot gun wedding P75 did a good job sticking to the books. But P15.......too much is changed around for it to claim it is more faithful to the books. It's as though Horsefield skimmed over all the non-Ross & Demelza parts during the first reading. Then realized she had to read the non-Ross Demelza parts because those secondary plots and characters are intertwined with Ross and Demelza. Then wrote the dramatization to focus around Ross and Demelza bringing in the other characters only to bolster the Ross Demelza story.

 

She got rid of the Polly Choake character and gave Ruth Treneglos a larger part by making her Polly.  Julia's birth lost all its symbolism.

[Nidratime]

I wonder if we're still going to get Hugh Bodrugan and his "mother?" Wasn't that the guy who had a thing for Demelza and a mother who was either his age or older than him? I almost don't know if I should even look forward to these characters since most of them are being given such short shrift anyway. So many good moments are being glossed over.

[Llywela]

I don't know why the 1975 series made the one big change they did, although I actually enjoyed it.

My understanding of it - and it is only that, from chatting with other fans, so don't quote me on it, but my understanding is that the show-makers back in 1975 had seen Angharad Rees in something else and really liked the character she played in that, so tweaked Demelza to be more like that character, a bit saucier - and threw in the pregnancy and shotgun marriage to make things more dramatic. Basically, whether we agree with their choices or not, the changes they made were intended to strengthen the story by increasing the drama. They also upped the intensity of Ross's early scenes with Elizabeth, and tweaked the story to have her on the point of leaving Francis only for Ross to dump her for pregnant Demelza. So there were a few changes, all wound around the same basic principle of increasing drama and strengthening the character dynamics. And it does succeed in that, even if it does warp the characters a bit in those early episodes, before pulling them back in line with the books later.

 

A lot of the changes P15 has made so far have the opposite effect: they weaken the story by weakening the characters. The overarching plot is the same, but the plot is not the story, it is the framework on which the story hangs. The story is the characters: their experiences and relationships, the bond we forge with them. And that's where the weakness lies. I can watch P15 and really enjoy Ross and Demelza's story, and I'm very attached to this Verity, but most of the rest of it is too superficial to bond with anyone, and I really miss the richness and broader viewing experience that comes of having a full roster of fully realised characters. When I heard this adaptation was coming, I was really excited thinking it was going to be even better than P75 - I had high hopes of it being another Cranford, rich and nuanced and beautiful. But although it is beautiful, the richness and nuance simply isn't there. And that's frustrating, because I know it could have been, the material is there, it just hasn't been exploited to its full potential.

 

I wonder if we're still going to get Hugh Bodrugan and his "mother?" Wasn't that the guy who had a thing for Demelza and a mother who was either his age or older than him?

His stepmother! And she is younger than him, by quite some margin. He's around somewhere, I believe, but not making much impression.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Llywela

[Nidratime]

Oops! I meant younger than him. Ergh! I'm too addled today.

 

I can still hear and picture in my mind Demelza (Angharad Rees) saying, "mother?!"

[Nampara]

His stepmother! And she is younger than him, by quite some margin. He's around somewhere, I believe, but not making much impression.

 

Hugh Bodrugan appears in episodes 3 (Ross visits him briefly at his estate to appeal for Jim Carter's release) and 6 (he dances with Demelza at the ball and seems to be developing a thing for her).

[skyways]

Yes wasn't he the one Ross went to when he wanted him to free Jim? and he said he didn't want to miss the hunt? Yes no impact whatsoever compared to the actual book character.

[Nidratime]

Yes wasn't he the one Ross went to when he wanted him to free Jim? and he said he didn't want to miss the hunt? Yes no impact whatsoever compared to the actual book character.

 

 

Sad. This just doesn't feel like "Poldark" to me, sorry to say.

[purist]

It's like Mark and the cottage. ... If it was mentioned that there was an obscure law that allowed a man to own a home provided he built it in a day, I certainly didn't hear it.

 

P75 does make it clearer that he is building the house from the ground up, and wants to do it inside 24 hours because the law then gives him ownership of the freehold

 

In the book Mark builds the house in a rush because it's the condition Keren sets him when she says she'll marry him: 'She had promised faithfully to marry him, promised faithfully on one condition. He must find somewhere for them to live; she would not share his father's house, crowded already, for a single day. Let him only find somewhere just for her alone before Sunday and she would run away with him.'

 

The deadline is Sunday because that is when the travelling players are leaving the district and moving on to the next town. Mark and his friends work day and night, in shifts (as well as going to their mining work), for four days to build the house in time.

Edited July 22, 2015 by purist

[Llywela]

Thanks, purist! It is definitely one of those sub-plots that is distinctly different in every version of the story!

[Milz]

I wonder if we're still going to get Hugh Bodrugan and his "mother?" Wasn't that the guy who had a thing for Demelza and a mother who was either his age or older than him? I almost don't know if I should even look forward to these characters since most of them are being given such short shrift anyway. So many good moments are being glossed over.

 

Hugh is in his 50s, but his stepmother is 29 or 30 years old. Both are vulgar and comical, imo. They take a liking to Demelza and Ross and invite them over for parties and such. IIRC it's in Book 3 where Demelza goes to a Bodrugan house party sans Ross.

[Llywela]

Jim and Ellen's blog, which I've linked before, now has an entry for episode six. I've read all their entries on Poldark - over the years they've reviewed all 12 books and the entirety of the 1975 adaptation, and are now onto the 2015 adaptation. I don't agree with all their interpretations (they don't like or understand Caroline at all and misinterpret her humour every time), and the writing is unpolished, but what they do really well is a point by point comparison between the books and the two adaptations, drawing out all the alterations and contractions and similarities.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Well, I'm posting this here because I can. After seeing the height disparity between Elizabeth and George in P15, I can only hope that if the series continues to when they get married they give George some shoe lifts to make him at least as tall as Elizabeth. When I watched the program and saw she's a full 2 inches taller than he, I got Sonny and Cher singing I Got You Babe stuck in my head and couldn't really get it out.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BERd61bDY7k

[limecoke]

Is Captain MacNeil around in this new version?  Perhaps in the last couple of episodes as the whole wrecking thing unfolds. 

 

P15 irritates me greatly in their portrayal of the more gentle and likable Elizabeth.  She was a cold piece of work in the books and P75 and this one just isn't working in the context of the story.  It was unfathomable that Ross would continue to hold a torch for such a ice queen of a woman - perhaps this version is trying to make it more understandable.  I don't like it.  

 

I don't recall Dwight being an old army buddy of Ross so is that an invention of the new writer or my faulty memory?

Edited July 28, 2015 by limecoke

[Llywela]

I don't recall Dwight being an old army buddy of Ross so is that an invention of the new writer or my faulty memory?

That backstory is a complete invention of this adaptation, introducing Dwight as an old friend of Ross so as to avoid having to do any hard lifting by building a friendship from scratch. Book!Dwight meets Ross and Demelza for the first time at Julia's christening - he attends as a guest of the Pascoe's, as he's staying with them for a while having just returned to Cornwall after studying medicine in London. He arrives at a propitious time, as Ross has just fallen out with Dr Choake, so Ross gives him a job as mine surgeon to get him started and offers him the Gatehouse to live in, and the friendship grows from there as they quickly discover a kindred spirit in one another, shared values and ethos. It's kind of important to Dwight's characterisation in the books that he arrives in Cornwall so young and inexperienced - making him a war veteran loses that, creates a subtly different perception of the character.

 

Of the characters whose interpretation disappoints me most in P15, Dwight is second only to Francis - he's such a nonentity in this version, whereas I really love book!Dwight and P75!Dwight. It's a shame, because in the hands of a writer committed to telling the story of Poldark as a whole, rather than only the romantic elements, the bromance of Ross and Dwight could be epic! I mean, seriously, each of these men risks life, limb and liberty to save the life of the other, and by the time you get to the later books, Graham is telling us that they have no secrets from one another (save one, which is that Dwight won't tell Ross his suspicions about Elizabeth's death). Their friendship is one of my favourite threads running through the novels.

 

Edited to add: yes, MacNeil is around in this version. You'll meet him soon.

 

(edited much later because I spotted a really stupid typo)

Edited July 28, 2015 by Llywela

[limecoke]

Thanks, Llywela.  It's been a few years since I read the books so some small details are a bit muddled.  

 

The writer of the 2015 version couldn't be bothered to build a friendship between Ross and Dwight from scratch but they wrote the Capt. Blamey/Verity romance as if it all happened in about five minutes.  It's such a complex story in the books.  On the major positive side, I love Ruby Bentall's portrayal of Verity.  I wasn't sure anyone could top Norma Streader but Ruby has done that and more.  I wasn't sure how Candleford's Minnie would do as Verity but she simply shines in the role!

 

I don't like this Frances either.  He's a good actor but he's written all wrong, as is Elizabeth.  Here's an unpopular opinion - I like Phil Davis very much as an actor but I do not like his version of Jud.  He's just plain unpleasant and mean-spirited.  I miss Paul Curran's Jud who was a mixture of crankiness and hilarity with a side of booze.  He was perfect and my exact picture of the Jud of the books. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by limecoke

[Llywela]

I don't like this Frances either.  He's a good actor but he's written all wrong, as is Elizabeth.  Here's an unpopular opinion - I like Phil Davis very much as an actor but I do not like his version of Jud.  He's just plain unpleasant and mean-spirited.  I miss Paul Curran's Jud who was a mixture of crankiness and hilarity with a side of booze.  He was perfect and my exact picture of the Jud of the books. 

I don't think there's anything unpopular about that opinion! Book!Jud is really funny. P15 Jud is just mean. And I really miss seeing Dwight's passion for his work.

 

I'm re-reading book one at the moment and it is striking to realise afresh that although P15 keeps all the plot beats the same, it changes in fact most of the personalities involved - as if the screenwriter read the book for plot only, focusing on the central romance, and made no attempt to get to know or understand the actual characters at all. Francis, Elizabeth, Jud - the list is endless, characters who fill the same plot role while being completely different personalities. This isn't a well known story so they can get away with it, but I don't like it - if someone staged an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice where the plot beats were the same but all the personalities were different, there'd be an outcry! It takes so much away from the story, especially since most of the altered characters aren't really explored beyond the surface, used mostly as plot devices. Even Demelza - I'd previously praised this version of Demelza, as her story is closer to the books, but on re-reading book one I've been reminded that the young Demelza is a really boisterous child, full of energy and curiosity and questions, filling Nampara with life and vitality. P15 Demelza had none of that, because they went straight for the romance and skipped the adolescence. Plus, in the book Prudie really does take Demelza under her wing like a stray duckling, in her own slapdash and lazy way - if we'd seen that relationship properly, all the unspoiled viewers wouldn't have been so confused by Demelza later thanking Prudie and Jud for raising her (even if that statement was tongue-in-cheek)!

 

The US airing is getting to the point where I was still trying to be positive in my posts but found I had very little positive to say, as my disappointment was growing. It makes me sad to go into the episode thread this week and see all the reactions to Keren - this adaptation portrays her so badly, with no nuance or subtlety whatsoever. Her story could be really powerful and tragic if properly told. I have to keep reminding myself that unspoiled viewers are responding to different characters than the ones I know!

Edited July 29, 2015 by Llywela

[Nidratime]

I don't like this Frances either.  He's a good actor but he's written all wrong, as is Elizabeth.  Here's an unpopular opinion - I like Phil Davis very much as an actor but I do not like his version of Jud.  He's just plain unpleasant and mean-spirited.  I miss Paul Curran's Jud who was a mixture of crankiness and hilarity with a side of booze.  He was perfect and my exact picture of the Jud of the books.

 

 

I agree. This is not an unpopular opinion to me. Leaving aside Frances and Elizabeth, Jud is not the character I remember at all. As you say, he was cranky and surly, but he was also very funny and you ended up having a soft spot for him which this current actor is not bringing forth at all. Prudie's the same. Even Ginny had much more personality than the cardboard character in this version.

[Milz]

I second all of that about the supporting characters. What irks me too is Jinny and Jim look like two 14 year olds going to the movies on a first date. Book Jim was a couple years younger than Ross and Jinny was a couple of years younger than Jim (making her older than Demelza).

[BBDi]

2015 Elizabeth has no discernible personality. There is no tension between her and Ross and no sense of history. It is just a void.

I agree with others that I hope George grows a couple of inches or gets some lifts before those two get together.

[Nidratime]

I agree with others that I hope George grows a couple of inches or gets some lifts before those two get together.

 

 

I'm surprised about the concern over George's height. Sometimes men are shorter than the women they are with, and I don't see how it's a big deal.

[Llywela]

I'm surprised about the concern over George's height. Sometimes men are shorter than the women they are with, and I don't see how it's a big deal.

For me it isn't about the height disparity between George and Elizabeth. It's that book!George is so specifically and repeatedly described as a very big, heavy-set, thick-necked man who never looks quite right in his elegant attire and always tries that bit too hard to fit in to polite society without it ever coming naturally to him, the way it does someone like Elizabeth who was born to it. And he is always very aware of those facts. This George is physically all wrong for the part, and looks far too at home in society, too elegant and too refined - he comes across as if he was born to it, and shouldn't. It sets-up a quite different perception of the character - who is yet another on the list of characters whose personalities have been altered for this adaptation. Some of those alterations are subtle, others significant, but they are all jarring if you know the original personalities. Like I've said before, no one aiming to put on a 'faithful' adaptation of Pride and Prejudice would alter the personalities in this way - there would be an outcry, and rightly so.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Llywela

[Nidratime]

Oh, I agree. This George is all wrong for the part, but his height is just one of many characteristics that you listed. If they put lifts on him, he'll just look taller but no less refined as you describe. In fact, in my mind, I'm now making him out to be a little Napoleon. Someone who came from lower ranks, who has gained power and now will try to amass more and lord it over everyone. ;-) That's clearly not how George was described in the books, but it fits this particular portrayal.

[Milz]

I'm surprised about the concern over George's height. Sometimes men are shorter than the women they are with, and I don't see how it's a big deal.

 

I've resolved myself that P15 isn't like the books, so i've lowered my expectations considerably. My issue with George's height now I see him as a sleazy little runt.

[duVerre]

I am very disappointed in the casting of Capt. MacNeil. In the 70s version, he (actor Donald Douglas) had strength, smarts and charm. He could immediately upset the balance in the room, and he knew it. In that way, he seemed dangerous to Ross and Demelza, and there was a lot of tension and intrigue because of it. But in general, it feels as though the casting directors for the '15 version were afraid to cast MacNeil (and Dwight and Francis, for that matter) who might steal some thunder from Aidan Turner. But Turner can stand on his own two feet just fine, and a strong supporting cast just makes the hero even stronger. 

 

The current Capt. MacNeil, Henry Garrett, seems to have thought his role through, and I hope he plays a long game and makes it work in the end. But right now there's no feeling of a major character having brought a bit of threat into Ross's world. Ross says he's less harmless than he seems, but I find it hard to imagine him going toe to toe with either Ross or Demelza. To me he reads too much like an obliging sap.

Edited August 3, 2015 by duVerre

[Llywela]

a strong supporting cast just makes the hero even stronger.

If only the writer of this adaptation actually understood this. I'm baffled by the way she has weakened the majority of the supporting characters.

 

Episode 7 was the one that broke me, when I watched back in the spring. The presentation of Keren's story. It made me so angry I couldn't post about it. I'm still angry when I think about it now. In the book there is this powerful, nuanced story in which all three individuals involved are fully formed, each with a distinct perspective and relatable motivations, we are allowed to understand why each of them makes the choices they do, and can sympathise with them throughout - it is a chemical cocktail of personalities and circumstances leading inevitably to tragedy, really gripping stuff. But P15 takes that powerful, nuanced story and presents it as a one-dimensional plot device in which no one has a developed perspective, the men are completely passive and the woman the aggressor throughout, to the point where even her murder is downgraded to an accident that she brought on herself - a portrayal that can only have been designed to ensure that no one would sympathise with Keren, in order to make the men look better. As a viewer, I'm hugely disappointed that the story was so badly presented, and as a feminist my blood absolutely boils over what was done to Keren here.

 

It also makes the episode threads really hard reading, because the unspoiled viewers there are responding to completely different characters and situations than the ones I know and understand, and in a literary adaptation that claims to be 'faithful' I find that unacceptable. If it advertised itself as 'based on' the books rather than as a faithful adaptation, it would be different. But since it purports to be faithful, I'm going to continue to be annoyed that it isn't! More and more I am convinced that Debbie Horsfield read the books for plot only and made no attempt whatsoever to understand the characters and their personalities, because so few of them match.

[Milz]

.

 

 

 More and more I am convinced that Debbie Horsfield read the books for plot only and made no attempt whatsoever to understand the characters and their personalities, because so few of them match.

 

I wonder if she actually read the books! After watching P15, it seems like it was an adaptation of P75 with the Demelza-Ross meet and marry being more true to the books. But the other changes are definitely not book-like: milksop Francis, homely Verity, kind and warm Elizabeth, the unfunny Paynters, etc.