S02.E14: T. Earl King VI

[Wynterwolf]

Anyway, I really enjoy Tom Keen. A perfect "dark horse" character.

 

I do too!  With Tom's arrival, I feel like things have suddenly started clicking again.  But then Tom does remind me a lot of S1/S2 Sark, so as long as they don't make Tom too cartoony evil (the way they eventually did with Sark), I will be excited to see where this goes.  Similar to Red, I find charcoal gray characters fascinating.  

 

LOL yeah Danielg342, that would definitely be a bad squick for me!  /o\

[alias1]

 

 

I thought Boone was good, particularly in the car with Red when he told her "don't ever do that again." 

I thought that was the best scene they've had together since the show started.  It definitely had a father/daughter vibe, whether or not Red is really her father.  And I don't think she can keep saying she is done with him now.  I see this scene as a turning point of sorts.  I think they're now going to downplay the question of whether he is her biological because no matter how they explain it this late in the show, most people will be disappointed in the answer.

 

I especially liked his "what are the odds" moment because he normally does a little soliloquy before shooting someone and this was just so Indiana Jones.  Red is priceless.  

[paigow]

Well...um...if Tom and Liz were both Red's kids...that means...they committed incest...I mean, we did see them kiss quite a bit...looking back and thinking they're actually siblings while they were doing that...talk about your squick.

I'll have to think about that if it's good squick or not.

Luke was ready to nail Leia....until they magically knew all along that they were related. Ugly squick factor = Red knew all along and forced Tom to unknowingly marry his own sister. 

[Danielg342]

Luke was ready to nail Leia....until they magically knew all along that they were related. Ugly squick factor = Red knew all along and forced Tom to unknowingly marry his own sister.

Ooh boy. If Red were to have done that, that's a whole new level of depravity...not sure anyone can top that.

[calipiano81]

Just perused the fanfiction for this show. Am I missing something? Why do so many ficcers ship Red and Lizzy? Is it an incest thing?

It's only incest if they really are related. But there has been a lot of evidence collected that make a strong case for Red NOT being Lizzie's father (including him flat out telling her "NO" and the fact that Red does not lie to Lizzie) so a lot of fans feel safe to ship them.

Many of the scenes/moments that some consider father-daughter, the shippers find incredibly romantic. This episode is especially being viewed as pro-Lizzington, including the car scene (with Lizzie admitting she cares for Red and Red valuing her life over his own), Red saying Lizzie's name as what he thought would be his final word, and Red trying to save Lizzie the whole time she was there to save him.

Of course, there is still wiggle room for the writers to go either way. If it turns out Red is her father, then incest it may well be.

Edited March 11, 2015 by calipiano81

[shura]

there has been a lot of evidence collected that make a strong case for Red NOT being Lizzie's father (including him flat out telling her "NO" and the fact that Red does not lie to Lizzie)

 

I'm pretty sure Red has lied to Lizzie, at least by omission. He never said anything about his own interests in Uzbekistan, for example, just made it sound like there is a valid case for the FBI to go in (I think, I don't remember anymore). The most we can possibly say is that we haven't seen him lie to her - that's hardly evidence that he doesn't. The very example of him telling her he is not her father may very well be a lie we don't know about.

[IWantCandy71]

Well...um...if Tom and Liz were both Red's kids...that means...they committed incest...I mean, we did see them kiss quite a bit...looking back and thinking they're actually siblings while they were doing that...talk about your squick.

I'll have to think about that if it's good squick or not.

 

I know it's incest, but either way, I don't think Liz in the end will really be his child.  I think that's the worst possible way they could go, and if they do it, it will be a jump the shark moment for me.

Edited March 11, 2015 by IWantCandy71

[Julia]

I'm pretty sure Red has lied to Lizzie, at least by omission. He never said anything about his own interests in Uzbekistan, for example, just made it sound like there is a valid case for the FBI to go in (I think, I don't remember anymore). The most we can possibly say is that we haven't seen him lie to her - that's hardly evidence that he doesn't. The very example of him telling her he is not her father may very well be a lie we don't know about.

 

Unless I missed the part where he told Lizzie that both Tom and the guy who was stalking her worked for him, Red has lied quite a bit to Lizzie by omission.

[IWantCandy71]

Luke was ready to nail Leia....until they magically knew all along that they were related. Ugly squick factor = Red knew all along and forced Tom to unknowingly marry his own sister. 

Have we ever had confirmation that Red was his boss at the time he married Liz? I think they've purposely made the Red/Tom connection ambiguous. Even the confrontation at the winter break is muddy. He's ordering Tom to stay away from Liz, Tom says "I didn't tell her about us" and there's obviously emotion there on both their parts. But what does that mean? Could mean lots of things, which is why the speculation is fun.

Unless I missed it though, they've never clarified Tom "worked" for Red when he married Liz. In fact, I always assumed Tom was ordered NOT to have anything to do with it (if indeed Tom worked for Red at the time). I always figured Tom went "rogue" and married Liz on his own, which is when he and Red went on the outs. Hence, why Red sent the hitman to their house, etc.

[alias1]

 

I'm not really keen on them trying so hard to SURPISE!!! us with the reveal of the Red/Lizzy relationship that they end up contradicting and retconning everything that came before. There are times when showrunners are so determined to come up with a twist, that when the audience predicts the ending prematurely, the showrunners change it. It's always ended up hurting the story, in my opinion. 

I think they always were going to reveal that she is Red's daughter, but fans kept insisting that would be too obvious, so they made it ambiguous until they could decide how to retcon it.  And I don't think they can.  I don't buy any other relationship, even that she might be his niece.  I think what they might do is come up with some long lost love of Red's and Lizzie is her daughter (and her dying wish is that Red watch over her daughter).  Well, that's as lame as anything they will come up with.  At this point they might as well leave it ambiguous for as long as possible because they are boxed into a corner.

[betsyboo]

Ah IWantCandy71,  you're taking me back to when I would have given anything for Sark to have been Sydney's brother. 

 

 

Oh, Alias. I think it's the ALIAS-diehard in me that keeps on at this show, because it's the closest thing to Spyfamily's dysfunctional drama on air right now. All it needs is for the Fulcrum to be one of the so-scientific-it's-magical inventions of a 16th century fictional da Vinci-like scientist... And I'm in.

God bless Sark.

[Texasmom1970]

 

I hope Dembe was alright after being tasered.

I was like that bitch she can't do that to Dembe, she needs to die now!

[morgankobi]

All the previews for this one I saw were hyping TOM'S RETURN [dramatic music, clip of him shaving his head looking serious]!

And then the episode starts... and he gets on the phone with Lizzie like a pimply-faced boy in middle school, too scared to ask her out.

At least Red shot someone out of the blue without monologuing. I love when he does that.

[IWantCandy71]

I think they always were going to reveal that she is Red's daughter, but fans kept insisting that would be too obvious, so they made it ambiguous until they could decide how to retcon it.  And I don't think they can.  I don't buy any other relationship, even that she might be his niece.  I think what they might do is come up with some long lost love of Red's and Lizzie is her daughter (and her dying wish is that Red watch over her daughter).  Well, that's as lame as anything they will come up with.  At this point they might as well leave it ambiguous for as long as possible because they are boxed into a corner.

There's always the possibility, however remote, that the show is pulling one big con on us. We are all up in Tom's business, wondering who he really is, and what is Red's true agenda, and his relationship with LIzzie.

What if. What IF, the biggest revelation of all is that Liz herself is NOT who Red or anyone else thinks she is.

I believe it's what filmakers refer to as "diversion", and magicians even have a name for it.

You know, when you're watching one person or one event, when really the action is happening elsewhere.

But that would have to mean Liz would get interesting really quick, and that ain't gonna happen.