Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Proteus]

9 hours ago, squidprincess said:

It would be interesting if Snart actually was the Snart from Legends of Tomorrow.  Not amnesiac, or time altered, or an earlier version.  He did have a lot of character development in the first season, but he's still a Rogue.  He may have decided that with the Time Masters out of the way, time travel offers a lot of brand new opportunities.

It wouldn't negate his development, necessarily.  (At least no more than Mick returning to crime in the finale negates his own development.)  He could still be relatively gray, compared to the other villains.  (Less inclined to murder, friendlier to the Legends when they're not at cross purposes.)

And it would give Sara, Mick, and Rip some interesting elements to chew over.  Especially Mick, who'd undoubtedly be faced with a join-Snart or stay-with-the-group type of dilemma.

I would hate that. IMO it'd erase all his character development.

[kismet]

I just want the LoT Crew to put Barry in some jail for a long time to think about what he did. Boy deserves some time in the stocks, for messing up my shows for multiple times now because of his selfishness.

[FurryFury]

12 hours ago, squidprincess said:

It would be interesting if Snart actually was the Snart from Legends of Tomorrow.  Not amnesiac, or time altered, or an earlier version.  He did have a lot of character development in the first season, but he's still a Rogue.  He may have decided that with the Time Masters out of the way, time travel offers a lot of brand new opportunities.

It wouldn't negate his development, necessarily.  (At least no more than Mick returning to crime in the finale negates his own development.)  He could still be relatively gray, compared to the other villains.  (Less inclined to murder, friendlier to the Legends when they're not at cross purposes.)

And it would give Sara, Mick, and Rip some interesting elements to chew over.  Especially Mick, who'd undoubtedly be faced with a join-Snart or stay-with-the-group type of dilemma.

I'll never buy "real" Snart fighting Mick and Sara. He basically died to save them, it would make zero sense. I think him being an AU/earlier timeline Snart would be OK, and he probably shouldn't know any of the crew for added angst. It would be a neat spin on the classic "hero(es) fighting a brainwashed friend" trope: here, the friend wouldn't be brainwashed, rather than an alternate version they may not be sure would ever grow into the person they knew. 

[squidprincess]

8 hours ago, Proteus said:

I would hate that. IMO it'd erase all his character development.

I think it would depend on his motivation and methods.

I mean obviously, if he's out for world domination, or killing people left and right, that'd be pretty out of character.  Likewise, I can't really imagine him fighting Mick or Sara either.  But there are six or seven other team members that he could fight with.

But he and Mick are still thieves.  We see that even in the finale, when Mick's back to his old hobbies (but is NOT happy when his temporary partner hurts someone).  I could find it plausible that Snart would find time travel interesting in its own right, and stealing things across the timeline would make for a fun challenge.  Kind of like being a temporal Carmen Sandiego.  

The problem with an alternate or earlier Snart, IMO, is that there'd need to be a reason for earlier/alternate Snart to learn about time travel and be in a position to exploit it.  And that can happen, obviously.  I just think it might not be all that bad if it IS our Snart.  (I would expect him to eventually turn on the other Legion of Doom members if this is the case, of course.)

 

7 hours ago, kismet said:

I just want the LoT Crew to put Barry in some jail for a long time to think about what he did. Boy deserves some time in the stocks, for messing up my shows for multiple times now because of his selfishness.

That's not really fair though.  Barry isn't actually messing up the timeline when you think about it, so much as he's repairing the mess Eobard created when he went back in time and killed Barry's mom.  Barry isn't really the causal event here.  It just happens that the timeline we like is the one that came about because of Eobard's interference.  It's not the original one.

And really, it's not any different from what Rip was trying to do in killing Savage before 2166, or Jax was trying to do when he warned his dad, or what Len was trying to do when he stole that emerald for his dad, or what Mick tried to do when he talked to his younger self, or what Sara asked Rip to do when she wanted him to help her save Laurel.  Barry's just more successful at it.  Assuming the timeline that results is relatively stable, they don't really have grounds to complain, and will likely sympathize with his reasons.

Edited July 25, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

Some moments are fixed points in time. I think Barry's mom's death is one of the. So that is the original timeline. When the LoT team tried to change the timeline they failed. Rip still lost his family, Snart's father was still an abusive asshole. Sara decided not to change the world to save her sister. We haven't seen any changes to what Mick and Jax did, but I'm assuming like younger Quentin they were given amnesia pills and remember nothing that was said to them or the same thing happened just in a different way. Barry has the power to change the timeline for good affecting everyone not just him. He basically changed the entire world to one he wanted. That's exactly what Savage, the villain was trying to do. 

My issue with Barry is he needs to own up to what he's done and face consequences for it. Not everyone patting him on the head and calling him a good boy while giving him a reward. To quote Foggy Nelson from Daredevil "You don’t get to create danger and then protect us from that danger. That’s not heroic. That’s insane.”

[squidprincess]

35 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Some moments are fixed points in time. I think Barry's mom's death is one of the. So that is the original timeline. When the LoT team tried to change the timeline they failed. Rip still lost his family, Snart's father was still an abusive asshole. Sara decided not to change the world to save her sister. We haven't seen any changes to what Mick and Jax did, but I'm assuming like younger Quentin they were given amnesia pills and remember nothing that was said to them or the same thing happened just in a different way. Barry has the power to change the timeline for good affecting everyone not just him. He basically changed the entire world to one he wanted. That's exactly what Savage, the villain was trying to do. 

I'm not sure there are "fixed points in time" in this series.  Certainly the characters have been unsuccessful in their attempts to change history in some respects (but not others, if we take Rip at his word that Sara was going to die with Laurel), but that seems to be more of a "time corrects itself as it goes" situation.

And Season 1 Flash does make it clear that the changes caused by Eobard Thawne (Nora's death, the Particle Accelerator explosion happening ten years early) were not part of Eobard's original timeline.  So Barry, arguably, is just reverting the timeline to the one where Eobard came from.

ETA: And there's a considerable moral difference between a grieving man trying to save his mother, who isn't hurting anyone else in the process, and what Savage was doing, which involved sexual assault, assassination, mass murder, and enslaving the world.  You could probably make a valid comparison between Barry and Rip, but not Barry and Savage.

Edited July 25, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

I was comparing the Barry wanting to change the world to one he wanted just like Savage wanted too. I'm not comparing their character personalities. However this isn't the Flash board and they've said that Flashpoint won't be affecting the LoT team. I gave up on the Flash in the middle of last season so I'm done talking about my dislike of Barry. 

On to LoT, I'm still not sure on erasing Snart's character development. He died a hero only to become part of Team of Big Bad? His interactions with the team could be interesting. I wonder if this version would flirt with Sara again which would then be depressing for her. I also wonder if we're getting the happier Sara of last season or the darker low self esteem Sara from Arrow. 

I would like to see Sara and Vixen become friends as two strong women on a team full of men and not talk about their love lives. I also hope Mick and Sara become better friends because of Snart. I would actually like to see a team of Mick, Sara and Ray because poor Ray would be in over his head when those two want to cause trouble. 

From the interviews I hope Rip's twist is, he and Jonah Hex were lovers. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

I really doubt we'd get a happier Sara after Laurel's death. Not to mention that personally for me, it felt somewhat OOC and more like "early installment weirdness", before the writers got a handle on her character. I'm still not sure they did, actually, at least not completely (her going back to LoA was also a bit jarring), but it's a work in progress. 

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From the interviews I hope Rip's twist is, he and Jonah Hex were lovers. 

Somehow I doubt that. My hope is it's not his son being alive and being Hourman or another hero.

[Sakura12]

I completely forgot that MG named Rip's son after his comic creation Jonas Quantum. That's probably Rip's son.

I know Sara shouldn't be happy just because I'm happy Laurel's gone. But I don't want dark low self esteem Arrow Sara back. I'll take her killing Malcolm though. I thought the first 2 eps she was way OOC, then they calmed her down a bit. I didn't mind her new happier personality because she started reminding me of cartoon Black Canary. 

[kismet]

To me Barry's intentions were selfish to get the end result he wanted. His actions were not nefarious. But he manipulated time & space which is a higher penalty/crime in my mind than what VS was trying to do from a Time/Space perspective. And LoT are the guardians of Time, so I think they should go after him. It's why the time masters were going after Rip. Changing time and space is a big thing, however BA just does it on a routine basis when he gets cocky or sad. He needs to be taught some type of lesson - otherwise the universe is unsafe. He needs to learn how to control his powers and his emotions. He is an unwitting villain in his own story and now in the whole Flarrowverses.

VS was a despicable human being and chose to do bad things to people so yes he is a more traditional villain. And yes those things should not occur and he should be rightly punished immensely for his crimes. But in my interpretation, he just manipulated people which is par for the course in villainy and sociopaths. He didn't actively try to change the time/space until the Timemasters got involved. So while similar to Rip & BA, his crimes are more against humanity than time. So humanity should go after him.

[Sakura12]

I'd feel more sympathy for Sara going back in time since her sister just died and the grief is still raw. Barry's mom died when he was like 10 and now he's 26. If he hasn't learned to process that yet then he needs to go to therapy and not be a super hero. I guess it's too hard to stop talking about Barry since he's affecting all the shows with his stupidity. It also makes me mad that he finally gets the girl he's been pining after and what does he do right after that? Erases her from knowing him. Why would I want Barry and Iris to be couple after that?  I really hope he faces some consequences for his actions this time. People should be angry at him for screwing with their lives like they don't matter. 

However everyone will probably thank Barry for saving the day from the problems he caused, again! He already has Flash Day, I guess the Flash museum is next. A museum that should really be stocked with all his fuck ups. 

[Trini]

I was about to say Sara can't actually kill Darkh (in the past?), because then Darkh wouldn't be there to kill Black Canary in the 'future' -- but then they would probably explain that she still died another way.

But besides that, if they do defeat Darkh, doesn't that rewrite Season 3 of Arrow? I know Flash doesn't care about erasing stuff, but the Arrow does, I'm sure.

Nothing wrong with talking about Barry, there's an entire forum for his show,  :)

[Sakura12]

I'm sure they'll find a stupid reason that Sara can't kill Darkh or Malcolm. 

[squidprincess]

43 minutes ago, kismet said:

To me Barry's intentions were selfish to get the end result he wanted. His actions were not nefarious. But he manipulated time & space which is a higher penalty/crime in my mind than what VS was trying to do from a Time/Space perspective. And LoT are the guardians of Time, so I think they should go after him. It's why the time masters were going after Rip. Changing time and space is a big thing, however BA just does it on a routine basis when he gets cocky or sad. He needs to be taught some type of lesson - otherwise the universe is unsafe. He needs to learn how to control his powers and his emotions. He is an unwitting villain in his own story and now in the whole Flarrowverses.

I'm not sure we can take the Time Masters' behavior in Rip's case to be standard policy, considering that the entire scenario was manipulated from the beginning by them, in order to put Savage in power sooner.  The Time Masters have been manipulating the timelines longer than Rip or Barry could ever dream of.

And if the LoT did have any justification for going after Barry, which I still doubt because Nora's murder was the actual timeline alteration,  (She wasn't murdered by a contemporary.  She was murdered by a time traveler.  That's like the definition of manipulating time.  And that's Eobard's crime, not Barry's.)...what are they supposed to do with him?  They're not police.  At most, they could what?  Lock him in a Vanishing Point cell?  Which would lead to a far bigger alteration of the time stream.

Besides, Rip's a lot of things.  But he's not generally a hypocrite.  He's shrugged off the crew's attempts to do the same thing that Barry did.  I can't see him leading any effort against Barry, even if somehow it was warranted.

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

I was about to say Sara can't actually kill Darkh (in the past?), because then Darkh wouldn't be there to kill Black Canary in the 'future' -- but then they would probably explain that she still died another way.

But besides that, if they do defeat Darkh, doesn't that rewrite Season 3 of Arrow? I know Flash doesn't care about erasing stuff, but the Arrow does, I'm sure.

Nothing wrong with talking about Barry, there's an entire forum for his show,  :)

Given the comic-con spoilers, I think the Dahrk we see in the past is probably a time traveler himself.  So even if Sara did kill him, it wouldn't bring Laurel back.

[kismet]

Laurel could come back. Flashpoint can reset anything. Nothing is off the table really. Because truly what is "present day" when everyone can just reset the timeline.

Although I fully expect LoT mission at some point will be to fix the anomalies caused by Barry's actions. That I think is the long-term intentions MG was talking about. In the short-term they are too preoccupied to deal wit BA's foolish actions.

Lastly, if the LoT crew does not put BA in a time-out, I will lose faith in the Flarrowverse that anyone will be allowed to. Flash & Arrow are certainly not going to punish him. The LoT Gang is my last hope in setting BA right again.

[Sakura12]

At least they can let him know he's being watched by other time travelers. 

I know short term they are not affected because they are in a different time (one that Barry hasn't fucked up yet). LoT is the last part of the Crossover so I kind of do expect them to show up to help fix it.

[squidprincess]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

From the interviews I hope Rip's twist is, he and Jonah Hex were lovers. 

Is that a twist though?  I thought a good portion of the fanbase believed that already.  :-)  (Including me!)

But from what Darvill was saying, I'd expect it to be something a bit more substantial than that.

I just hope it's not something like "And Snart is a villain now!" since we already know that.  I'm hoping this twist, whatever it is, is something significant to Rip.

[Sakura12]

AD said it was a twist for Rip. Not a twist for the team. Although it's probably right to guess his son is still alive. 

[tarotx]

Yeah I think Rip's son will be alive. They will probably go with Rip meets his adult son in a reverse of Rip meeting Booster Gold in the comics. Though it also might be something to do with his birth family. 

[squidprincess]

It's as good a theory as any.  Though from the way Darvill talked about Rip's emotional state, I wasn't getting the impression that they'd be reversing their fates any time soon.  Still, this show has done sillier plotlines.  :-)

[kismet]

I fully expect Rip's son to be alive. I'm not sure if that is the twist for this season. But it will probably happen before the end of the series.

[tarotx]

The legends are filming in 1940's NY today

Edited July 25, 2016 by tarotx

[Starfish35]

Wow.  She looks great. :)

[Sakura12]

Here's some more pics

[squidprincess]

Interesting.  I especially like the uniform, and Mick in a tie.

Edited July 25, 2016 by squidprincess

[Starfish35]

No pics of the new recruits yet - I wonder if they've started filming yet?

[Sakura12]

I think they said Nick Zano filmed. Maise hasn't yet. However I think the JSA is in 1942. 

ETA: I'm interested in why Vixen decides to go with them. She's the only member of the JSA that does. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Sakura12

[squidprincess]

Did we ever find out for sure whether this Vixen is the African American military lady that was teased a while back?  The one who lost a love interest?  Because that might be a reason for wanting a fresh outlook for a while.

[Starfish35]

I don't know that they ever spelled it out specifically, but it seems likely, because we never got another new regular cast.  So either that was it, or they scrapped that idea and went with Vixen instead.  

[CabotCove]

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Lastly, if the LoT crew does not put BA in a time-out, I will lose faith in the Flarrowverse that anyone will be allowed to.

Why would they? the LoT crew do the same thing in every episode, mess with time/universes. And it has changed canon somewhat. 

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Besides, Rip's a lot of things.  But he's not generally a hypocrite.  He's shrugged off the crew's attempts to do the same thing that Barry did.  I can't see him leading any effort against Barry, even if somehow it was warranted.

Agree it would be hypocritical of them, they have no leg to stand on this. The Arrow crew don't mess with time, let them tell off Barry, if someone has to. Just my 2 cents

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I know short term they are not affected because they are in a different time 

Realistically speaking, it should affect some members of the team (except for maybe Rip) they all have families, friends, spouses and a history/past in the timeline  Barry changed. I think.... 

Edited July 26, 2016 by WildcardC

[FurryFury]

11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I completely forgot that MG named Rip's son after his comic creation Jonas Quantum. That's probably Rip's son.

I know Sara shouldn't be happy just because I'm happy Laurel's gone. But I don't want dark low self esteem Arrow Sara back. I'll take her killing Malcolm though. I thought the first 2 eps she was way OOC, then they calmed her down a bit. I didn't mind her new happier personality because she started reminding me of cartoon Black Canary. 

I think if anyone's going to kill Malcolm for good, it will be Oliver. Unfortunately. Because it really should be Thea and/or Sara, in that order.

But maybe she'll get to off Damien Dahrk the second time. Which I personally don't care about, because the dude freed us from Laurel (or at least her original incarnation, sigh). He should be celebrated.

The photos are great. They all look so snazzy. Even if I prefer Sara in black generally, she rocks the white dress.

[squidprincess]

4 hours ago, WildcardC said:

Realistically speaking, it should affect some members of the team (except for maybe Rip) they all have families, friends, spouses and a history/past in the timeline  Barry changed. I think.... 

 Do we know for sure that they are in a different time?    I'm not sure when the Flash finale takes place relative to the Legends finale, but the Legends finale's cliffhanger was in 2016.  Everyone had gone back home to think about Rip's offer, and had just decided to accept when Hourman showed up.  Arguably, the Legends could still be in the thick of it.

 

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I completely forgot that MG named Rip's son after his comic creation Jonas Quantum. That's probably Rip's son.

I hadn't heard this.  Interesting.  I'd figured Jonas was named as an homage to Booster Gold's father, Jonas Carter.

[kismet]

The photos are great, I love dress-up on this show.

6 hours ago, WildcardC said:

Why would they? the LoT crew do the same thing in every episode, mess with time/universes. And it has changed canon somewhat. 

Nope, the LoT crew go back in time to save the world or change an event that will have catastrophic impact at the risk of their own lives. Barry went back because he missed his Mommy at the expense of everyone else's lives. One is selfless, the other is selfish.

[FurryFury]

Well, many of them did try to change the past for their selfish reasons. Snart with his father, Sara with Laurel, hell, Rip's quest to save his family was pretty much the foundation for the whole show. So I kinda think they would sympathize with Barry. (even if he really should be called out on his shit by heroic characters)

Edited July 26, 2016 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

Sara hasn't tried to change the past, she asked if they could. Then Rip told her what would happen and she didn't. Snart and Rip both were unable to change the past and Snart still had an abusive father and Rip still lost his family. Barry actually changed the past and got to see what it's like to have family back and will probably get rewarded for it somehow. He never faces any consequences for screwing with the timeline. Then this is the second time he did it knowing full well that he could destroy the world doing it. 

I just need Barry to face what he's done and admit he needs to stop thinking about himself. Rip realized that he couldn't save his family but he could save his team. And his team didn't just let him get away with treating them like they don't matter. I think the LoT team became stronger once they realized that they all matter and agreed to work together. Barry's team seems to be all about Barry Allen. All of them would erase themselves from existing if it got Barry what he wants. 

[squidprincess]

If we take Rip at his word about the new purpose of the Legends of Tomorrow, then he might actually be agreeing with Barry's actions here.

Regardless of whether or not Barry was "selfish", there's a big difference between Barry's attempts to change the timeline and the other Legends.  Barry isn't changing the timeline, he's undoing a change.

Eobard Thawne went back in time.  In doing so, he altered his own timeline.  He murdered Nora Allen, he murdered Harrison Wells, he caused the Particle Acceleration explosion ten years early, is at least indirectly responsible for all the mayhem and murder that followed, and inadvertently caused his ancestor to commit suicide.  All of these things did not happen in the timeline that Eobard, or the Barry that we glimpse fighting him in the original flashbacks, came from.

If the Legends are intended to protect/preserve the time stream, then Eobard Thawne is the one that should have been stopped.  Not Barry.  (Though, between Eobard's general incompetence, and the fact that Barry doesn't know what he's doing, it wouldn't surprise me if the Legends got roped into a clean-up anyway.  I just doubt that they'll be all that interested in taking Barry to task.)

It is interesting to think of what might or might not be changed with the change/reversion to the original timeline.  The timeline change/reversion happened in 1990.  Assuming the Legends characters are of similar ages to their actors, then most of their early timelines should be intact.  Martin and Mick would be adults even, Snart close enough to it.  Ray, Carter, and Sara would be children.  Kendra and Jax wouldn't be born yet, but their births should be soon enough after that it's unlikely that Nora Allen being alive/Eobard Thawne being defeated would change those.  Rip may or may not have a problem, depending on whether or not "Michael" was born in the past or the future.

The Arrow characters really ought not be altered that much if Barry wasn't the Flash.  They'd need another solution for the times that Barry saved the day in team ups, but that's about it.  Mick and Leonard would need another reason to get their cold/fire weaponry, but that shouldn't be that hard.  Firestorm is the only big problem, but then, if the teaser images of the new timeline's Flash are true, then it's possible that the Firestorm merging could have happened due to the same events that caused that Flash to get his powers.  I am curious to see what they do with that.

Edited July 26, 2016 by squidprincess

[CabotCove]

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Do we know for sure that they are in a different time?    I'm not sure when the Flash finale takes place relative to the Legends finale, but the Legends finale's cliffhanger was in 2016.  Everyone had gone back home to think about Rip's offer, and had just decided to accept when Hourman showed up.  Arguably, the Legends could still be in the thick of it.

Well the Legends themselves jump from one time to another, I dont think they will be able to see the effects of Flashpoint until they go home again . I think the LoT finale happened before the Flash's (guess). The Legends are in a different time/s  every week(1960s, 2080 etc) but they are not usually in a different timeLINE  to Barry. Its usually the same timeline except for Star City 2046 episode. Thats why I think FP should affects Legends, especially the characters that were closer to Barry (Firestorm, Captain Cold, Heatwave). If they never knew Barry/Flash, then their lives cannot remain the same. 

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Nope, the LoT crew go back in time to save the world or change an event that will have catastrophic impact at the risk of their own lives. Barry went back because he missed his Mommy at the expense of everyone else's lives. One is selfless, the other is selfish.

They still alter history and future of a lot of people without their consent. Sometimes they make things far worse than they original were, like Pedagog rising to power early because of the Legends interfering. They wont always clean up their mess.

 Even when they succeed, sometimes bad things happen for a reason, its a general time travel rule that if you change one bad thing something else will take its place. If bad events dont happen, most characters wouldnt become heroes, the world wouldnt be such a safe place. Nope, sorry I dont think Barry is the worst, when there is a whole show set up for people to tinker with time every other week. JMO

Edited July 26, 2016 by WildcardC

[Sakura12]

It's not really about who is right or wrong messing with time travel. My main issue with Barry is he never faces any consequences for his actions, the Legends have. Barry gets a pat on the back and reward for causing the trouble in the first place. Like the Daredevil quote, Barry's not a hero for making the trouble then saving people from that trouble. Even cheesy Supergirl had Kara face the consequences of her actions and had people turn on her. Barry's never had that no matter what he does. Everyone enables him so he keeps doing the same thing over and over again. 

Do we know for a fact that Barry mom didn't die in the so called "Original" Time line? Or just that Reverse Flash didn't kill her? That's the thing about time travel we don't know if what happened was always meant to happen. We saw that one of the time traveling Barry's told him not save his mom. Which might mean that her death is needed for other things to happen. The main timeline wants to correct itself and from the Flash trailer that what looks like is happening. No matter what Reverse Flash does or doesn't do. Barry's mom is supposed to die, that's the correct timeline. Not the one he created by saving her. 

[squidprincess]

26 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Do we know for a fact that Barry mom didn't die in the so called "Original" Time line? Or just that Reverse Flash didn't kill her? That's the thing about time travel we don't know if what happened was always meant to happen. We saw that one of the time traveling Barry's told him not save his mom. Which might mean that her death is needed for other things to happen. The main timeline wants to correct itself and from the Flash trailer that what looks like is happening. No matter what Reverse Flash does or doesn't do. Barry's mom is supposed to die, that's the correct timeline. Not the one he created by saving her. 

Eobard says it in "Fast Enough", he killed Nora in hopes that the grief would prevent Barry from becoming the Flash.  That's explicit acknowledgment that the Barry of Eobard's timeline did not lose Nora at that point in time.  Furthermore, if Nora is supposed to die at some other point in time, then Barry's choice here would not affect that.  Barry travels back in time to stop Eobard, not any random accident or mishap that could possibly occur at any point in Nora's life.

Just because you don't like Barry doesn't mean that the Legends would take the same position.  I'm sure Barry will face his own consequences on the Flash, given that they've introduced ample means to enforce them within that show itself (Time Wraiths, the Speed Force, the Black Flash).  

Edited July 26, 2016 by squidprincess

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure how much this is relevant to this thread, since MG already said Flashpoint isn't going to affect LoT much, at least at first.  

But as far as Barry's mom, in the movie Flashpoint, she was killed by a random intruder, not by Reverse Flash, and so by saving her Barry messed everything up.  In the TV show, she was killed by RF who time travelled back, and so yeah, I can see the argument that Barry is just putting the timeline back to what it was supposed to be.  I'm not sure that's how the show is going to interpret it though.  I think also that it would be less of an issue if it had happened at the end of last season.  But after what did happen at the end/beginning of last season and losing Eddie and Robbie, and also the episode where Barry was in the speed force, it just makes Barry look like he never learns from his mistakes.  He's acting selfishly without considering how his actions will affect others, which one would think he'd have learned after what happened last season.  It's not fun to watch our heroes make the same mistakes over and over again and never learn.

But that's all I'll say on it since this discussion is probably better suited for the Flash forum or the Mind Your Surroundings thread.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

So nothing would need to be "fixed" if that timeline is the correct one. Flash should from now on be an entirely different show. It worked for Fringe. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Sakura12

[squidprincess]

Honestly, I'm not a huge Barry fan.  The Flash is a fun show, but I'd prefer that it not have a strong impact on Legends of Tomorrow.

That said, the Barry/Flashpoint situation is still very different and it's worth noting that.  (I have no idea what relevance the actor opinions actually have to the conversation.  They can think whatever they want.  They're not writing the script.)

If you think about it, we have a comparable example.  When Sara wants to save Laurel, Rip tells her no.  He doesn't say anything about the timeline when he says no.  What he says is that it's impossible, and essentially says that in the timeline that he doesn't recruit Sara, she dies with Laurel.  And even if the entire team went with her, the same result would happen.  (Which does seem to be true, going by the way Dahrk had the room frozen, using that idol.)

Rip didn't let Sara die there.  And it's very possible that the same is true for the other Legends.  (Why else would Ray, a billionaire genius inventor, who is only in his thirties, never make any more of a mark on history?)   And Rip returned Sara, and the others, months after her likely death.

We're not seeing the results of this decision, because Rip made this decision in the present, relative to the audience.  But if we looked at it from the perspective of John Diggle, Jr/Connor Hawke, or Oliver Queen in the future Star City?  We might see an effect very similar to the Flashpoint timeline changes.

I'm not saying that Rip shouldn't have a fairly stern sit down conversation with Barry where they talk about why he should not be altering the timeline any time he darn well feels like it.  But I think he'll be fairly understanding about Barry's reasons. 

[Starfish35]

20 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

So nothing would need to be "fixed" if that timeline is the correct one. Flash should from now on be an entirely different show. It worked for Fringe. 

That's why I said I don't think the show will treat it that way.  There will be some reason that Barry will have to fix his "fix".

[tarotx]

Barry isn't fixing the timeline since Barry has no real knowledge about what happened originally. All he really knows is what happened within the timeline he lived. He also isn't trying to change the timeline to an overall betterness. He's changing the timeline because he wants his mom alive. Which is understandable but Barry isn't thinking of the greater good nor about what will happen to his friends and family. That latter part is why I think Barry needs slapping. Rip isn't a hero either but he isn't just trying to save his family but work on saving the world as well. He's trying to find a balance. And the big thing is Rip has people question him at all turns.

I personally don't want to deal with Barry affecting Arrow. I find it very unpleasant to know a guy on another show can mess with what I watched. It was already annoying dealing with time travel in an episode that it all happened in the episode. 

Legends only deals with the effects of changing their timeline when they return to Star city or when it's just a very small change like with Snart's father. But they are questioned, judged and reprimanded. The whole purpose of the JSA is to show our legends they aren't heroes yet. Barry needs that knocked into him. Imo. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by tarotx

[squidprincess]

Eobard told Barry what he'd done and gave him the opportunity to fix it.  It's right there in the episode.

And to say that Barry has no real knowledge of the original timeline is incorrect.  He's seen Eobard's newspaper (so he knows that he's the Flash and Iris marries him).  He knows what Eobard's told him.  He knows that Eobard murdered Nora and Harrison.  He also knows that the particle accelerator went off early, and therefore any of the deaths that came afterward are also caused by Eobard.  

It is true that Barry doesn't know what happened to all of his friends individually.  But his friends also agreed, both times, to support his attempt to change his past.  

Regardless of whether or not Barry made the right decision, from a Legends perspective, what he's done is not terribly different than what they've done.  He may or may not have specifically influenced some of their pasts, and certainly if they're aware of it, they have the right to be upset at that.  And certainly, I'd expect Rip to have some opinions about the seemingly-cavalier way that Barry has interacted with the timeline so far (not so much this time, but the Weather Wizard episode in season one, and learning superspeed from Eobard in season two).  But that doesn't mean that there's going to be this big Legends vs. the Flash thing.  Or that there should be.

[kismet]

3 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

Regardless of whether or not Barry made the right decision, from a Legends perspective, what he's done is not terribly different than what they've done.  He may or may not have specifically influenced some of their pasts, and certainly if they're aware of it, they have the right to be upset at that.  And certainly, I'd expect Rip to have some opinions about the seemingly-cavalier way that Barry has interacted with the timeline so far (not so much this time, but the Weather Wizard episode in season one, and learning superspeed from Eobard in season two).  But that doesn't mean that there's going to be this big Legends vs. the Flash thing.  Or that there should be.

And in LoT, the characters are always forced to live with or acknowledge there are consequences to their actions. Flash has barely made BA aware of the consequences of his actions. And when they are bold enough to try for a few minutes, they completely undo it by the end of the episode and coddle him until he feels better.

As for the bolded, I don't want that. But being that LoT is a time travel show and has some experience altering the timeline or witnessing alterations to the timeline - they are in a unique position to offer BA some legitimate, honest and realistic perspective on his decision-making abilities & choices. BA needs an intervention from people that aren't just going to coddle him and tell him that everything he did was okay just because.

[tarotx]

Villains are never to be fully believed but it doesn't much matter within my point. And the newspapers didn't tell much. Barry didn't explore the past nor the future in a scientific or historical way. He lives moments. He talks to scientists but there are worlds out there where he can gain information  He messes with what he is uneducated about and doesn't even try to get educated. He relies on his speedster weapons instead of his brain. Even when he went to Earth 2 he messed around with his personal interest. He's a very selfish man especially within his circle and is rarely called upon. Barry does things and then reacts. Or he picks a selfish way and the show has the other characters giving him pep talks.

Rip is actually someone he should talk to because Rip has suffered the lessons of time travel. At the end of the day Barry doesn't try to improve himself only to run faster and his go to of trying to save his mom. He doesn't try to save the world or his city to save the world and city. It's usually to fix his own mistakes. He does care about people but that was more early season one. 

Though I guess this isn't really for the legends spoiler thread. LOT is barely going to address Flashpoint and probably will only do so in relationship to the crossover and Eobard.

Edited July 26, 2016 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

So back to spoilers. 

I wonder how big a part the rest of the JSA will play. I would've kind liked Star Girl to have a role on the team because they need more female characters. But I guess that keeps with the there can only be two women on any of the teams deal they have going on. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Sakura12

[Trini]

Grant Gustin has said that he will be in at least one episode of all the other shows; so hopefully he will talk with Rip, and all this discussion about Barry will be relevant then. (I still find it disappointing that Barry/Flash didn't even have a cameo last season.)

[CabotCove]

Quote

My main issue with Barry is he never faces any consequences for his actions, the Legends have.

He has faced consequences (Time Wraiths, wormhole, Zoom,Ronnie's death), yet yes he chose to be selfish and do it again anyway, creating FP. But the Legends have done selfish actions & repetitive mistakes ,with time too all season, IMO. Its just that the way Barry does time travel may have far reaching consequences that using a time machine, so he needs to be extra careful.  I do hope Barry will learn his lesson this time around and grow. 

Quote

Rip is actually someone he should talk to because Rip has suffered the lessons of time travel.

But has he learned his lesson and wont pull the same tricks in season 2?  I wait to see...

Edited July 26, 2016 by WildcardC