All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Yes, Clemente was an accomplished physician who had a proven track record and just happened to develop a medical condition while working at County.  Firing Kerry because he had a mental health problem would be like firing Kerry because he developed lung cancer.

Ya watching the Clemente story from today's point of view was pretty surprising, especially how much talk there is about people recognizing mental health as a health issue and talking about it (in Canada we have Bell let's talk day every year). He had some sort of mental health breakdown/crisis and even though he worked with medical people not only did he get fired (and I think mocked) but so did the person who hired him. 

[Notabug]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Ya watching the Clemente story from today's point of view was pretty surprising, especially how much talk there is about people recognizing mental health as a health issue and talking about it (in Canada we have Bell let's talk day every year). He had some sort of mental health breakdown/crisis and even though he worked with medical people not only did he get fired (and I think mocked) but so did the person who hired him. 

It's been a while since I watched those episodes, but, if I'm not mistaken, Clemente was self-medicating with illicit drugs at one point.  That could be a fireable offense, even if he did have a mental health problem, especially if he worked while under the influence.  However, we had Abby coming to work stinkin' drunk and people waving it away, so ER was pretty inconsistent on substance abuse at work.

[txhorns79]

 

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

However, we had Abby coming to work stinkin' drunk and people waving it away, so ER was pretty inconsistent on substance abuse at work.

I kind of recall Sam point blank asking Abby if she was working while drunk, and I don't think Abby answered her.  That's an interesting juxtaposition to Abby being the one to report Carter when she caught him shooting up(?) in one of the trauma rooms.  

On 6/7/2023 at 4:54 AM, Cliffw said:

Amanda Lee being head of the ER was Anspaugh's call and he didn't suffer any consequences when everything hit the fan but years later when it was discovered that John Leguizamo's character was unfit for the job he was hired for,

In fairness, Amanda Lee stole real credentials and apparently faked her way through a residency and head of some kind of trauma department(?) in Atlanta.  So unless Anspaugh did a deep dive into her, she apparently said all the right things and appeared to be a real doctor.  Of course, it never made sense that someone who was grifting at such a high level for so long would fall apart after a few weeks, like Amanda did, but there you go. 

[Notabug]

Just now, txhorns79 said:

 

I kind of recall Sam point blank asking Abby if she was working while drunk, and I don't think Abby answered her.  That's an interesting juxtaposition to Abby being the one to report Carter when she caught him shooting up(?) in one of the trauma rooms.  

In fairness, Amanda Lee stole real credentials and apparently faked her way through a residency and head of some kind of trauma department(?) in Atlanta.  So unless Anspaugh did a deep dive into her, she apparently said all the right things and appeared to be a real doctor.  Of course, it never made sense that someone who was grifting at such a high level for so long would fall apart after a few weeks, like Amanda did, but there you go. 

Sam did ask in a staff meeting after Abby returned from rehab, at least in part because Abby was obviously intoxicated one day when Sam was working with her and Sam prevented her from making a huge mistake.  So, for Abby to just stand there and stare at Sam as though the question was out of order and for everyone else in the meeting to act like Sam farted was just a bit much.  Part of the ongoing deification of St. Abby, she who never does wrong.

I thought Amanda didn't do the residency or headed a trauma dept. but actually stole that part of the other doc's CV, too.  I seem to recall someone asking whether anyone had called to check references and it seemed like no one had.  Anspaugh knew some doc or other who worked with 'her' as part of his old boys' network and, when he asked about 'Dr Lee', got a rave review without realizing that the real Dr Lee was both Asian and male.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Sam did ask in a staff meeting after Abby returned from rehab, at least in part because Abby was obviously intoxicated one day when Sam was working with her and Sam prevented her from making a huge mistake.  So, for Abby to just stand there and stare at Sam as though the question was out of order and for everyone else in the meeting to act like Sam farted was just a bit much.  Part of the ongoing deification of St. Abby, she who never does wrong.

The prevailing attitude in the fandom is the same: that Sam was totally rude to Abby when Abby was trying to be “brave” and “honest” about her drinking and Sam should have just fallen at her feet in adoring worship. (Never mind that Abby didn’t actually focus on being a better person or apologizing to people and instead whined and sulked to Coburn for most of their conversations about how she can’t cope with life and how unfair it was that Luka moved out.) Mostly because “but Sam made Abby go into pre-term labor and have a hysterectomy!” It reads as if people totally misunderstood the S12 finale and believed Sam had a plan to stage her own kidnapping and wanted to murder Abby and her baby in the process. I don’t love Sam but let’s face it she was just as much a victim in those two episodes… 

It always made me mad that Abby got the happy life and prestigious job in the end while Carter got treated like he was some sort of parasite. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Cliffw]

15 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

It always made me mad that Abby got the happy life and prestigious job in the end while Carter got treated like he was some sort of parasite. 

It was probably 15 years ago but I still remember the post on the TWOP forums where the person applauded Abby for recognizing that she had a problem instead of being like Carter who had to go to rehab kicking and screaming.

It sucked how Carter was treated when he came back to County after going to rehab. I understand them putting restrictions on him but they really treated him like some junkie instead of someone who began using after suffering from trauma. Abby got her Attending position the season after going through her issues before she finally left County while Weaver made it seem like Carter was ridiculous for asking her about the Chief Resident position. Abby also never had to deal with a Romano type (asking Weaver who's going to watch the drugstore when cowboy came back to work) or his parents (his father asking him if he's back on drugs after he came back from Africa with Kem and I think his mother asked him if he's going to blame her for using). 

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Cliffw said:

It was probably 15 years ago but I still remember the post on the TWOP forums where the person applauded Abby for recognizing that she had a problem instead of being like Carter who had to go to rehab kicking and screaming.

It sucked how Carter was treated when he came back to County after going to rehab. I understand them putting restrictions on him but they really treated him like some junkie instead of someone who began using after suffering from trauma. Abby got her Attending position the season after going through her issues before she finally left County while Weaver made it seem like Carter was ridiculous for asking her about the Chief Resident position. Abby also never had to deal with a Romano type (asking Weaver who's going to watch the drugstore when cowboy came back to work) or his parents (his father asking him if he's back on drugs after he came back from Africa with Kem and I think his mother asked him if he's going to blame her for using). 

Abby also had a lot of enablers around her. Her coworkers and friends all looked the other way, as was already mentioned, and were gushing over her to tell her don’t worry she was still an amazing wife and mother and doctor even though she neglected Joe and worked while drunk. (And did she ever really love him to begin with even when she was sober? Even Sam had more love for Alex than Abby ever showed Joe.) Luka stayed married to her even though she drove drunk with Joe and didn’t take care of him after his head injury. (He wasn’t at all worried that she would do this again? Especially when she behaved badly and everyone praised her for it?) I might be wrong but I don’t recall anyone telling Carter that he was still a good doctor and everyone running to hug him after rehab to support him. 

I can see Abby falling back off the wagon in Boston because she knows the first time she fell so hard everyone applauded her and told her she was still the best and she suffered virtually no work or personal consequences. I feel like if the writers of S14 were trying to show how recovered she was, they could have written more convincing scenes (her attending a meeting and sharing, actually admitting to Sam she was drunk and apologizing for the harm she caused, trying to be a better mom to Joe, maybe showing that she lost Neela as a friend or Coburn dropped her /stopped sponsoring her to indicate that she burned bridges, knew this, and was trying to do better). I wasn’t convinced by the whole “Abby is now a saint because she’s been sober for two weeks” plot. 

[txhorns79]

23 hours ago, Notabug said:

I thought Amanda didn't do the residency or headed a trauma dept. but actually stole that part of the other doc's CV, too.  I seem to recall someone asking whether anyone had called to check references and it seemed like no one had.  Anspaugh knew some doc or other who worked with 'her' as part of his old boys' network and, when he asked about 'Dr Lee', got a rave review without realizing that the real Dr Lee was both Asian and male.

Okay.  I had thought she used the real Dr. Lee's credentials to get into the residency program and went from there.   

[Cloud9Shopper]

29 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Okay.  I had thought she used the real Dr. Lee's credentials to get into the residency program and went from there.   

I just watched Nobody Doesn’t Like Amanda Lee last night and I believe that Mark mentioned this. 

Also, love that Jerry was the first one who picked up on how weird she was.

Only a few episodes left for me now until Doug leaves. The Joi and Ricky Abbott plot just started. 

[Dr.OO7]

On 6/7/2023 at 9:39 AM, Notabug said:

He/she criticized me for taking Adderall for my medical condition, ADHD.

That storyline INFURIATED me.

People prying into others private medical business is a HUGE Berserk Button for me. Carter, you are A doctor, not HER doctor. Her medical conditions and the medication (s) she takes for them are none of your business.

Then a year later, he gets pissy when Mark asks him what his pain medication regimen is and snaps "That's between me and my doctor". Yes, and I'm pretty sure it was between Lucy and her doctor too.

[Dr.OO7]

4 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Only a few episodes left for me now until Doug leaves. The Joi and Ricky Abbott plot just started. 

24 years later and I still hate that storyline so much that I won't watch it. Doug blowing up his personal and professional life in the space of 4 episodes that took place over as many days, if not less, was utterly nonsensical, even with his history of rebellious behavior. Couldn't they have just sent him off to do humanitarian work in some poor country and have him come back in time for the birth of his kids? There's a wonderful fanfic called "One Candle Burns" with that precise scenario and it always makes me regret the writers didn't do something like that.

[Bastet]

53 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Doug blowing up his personal and professional life

I don't remember details, just that it infuriated me, but didn't his actions also put the clinic Carol had worked so hard to get going at risk, which of course would screw over all the patients it served?

[Cloud9Shopper]

The Adderall plot was one of the only times I was on Lucy’s side in her spat with Carter. (Although I wondered why she stopped taking it just based off something he said if she knew it was working for her.) It was invasive and gross and I’m glad she went back to it in the end.

The Ricky Abbott incident that led to Doug’s departure ended up causing Anspaugh to decide to close Carol’s clinic. I remember the first time I was watching on Hulu a few years back I wondered why Carol would stay with Doug and feel so loyal to him after he blew up everything she worked for. I’ve seen the whole series so I know he matures and it works out in the end, but at the time I wanted to scream at Carol to do better. 

Good to see a nod to ER fanfic! I’m still writing after two years and have a work in progress right now…almost to 70,000 words. I’m aware I have no life. 😂

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I don't remember details, just that it infuriated me, but didn't his actions also put the clinic Carol had worked so hard to get going at risk, which of course would screw over all the patients it served?

Yes, and Carol had to give up her position managing the clinic which was something she was passionate about and allowed her to grow in her job.

The whole storyline was nonsensical, TPTB had known for several seasons that GC was leaving at the end of season 5, he never pretended otherwise. Why not have Doug continue his personal growth and maybe decide to do a pediatric psych fellowship?  Or get a great job offer to set up a peds ER elsewhere in Chicago?   He could've lived off camera for the next season until Carol left

Also, making Carol pregnant with Doug's children and having him be thousands of miles away and not even aware she was in labor, let alone present for their birth was just more character assassination.

I wish JM hadn't signed on for that extra season, that's what caused the mess we got.

[outsmartabullet]

On 6/8/2023 at 5:54 PM, Notabug said:

Sam did ask in a staff meeting after Abby returned from rehab, at least in part because Abby was obviously intoxicated one day when Sam was working with her and Sam prevented her from making a huge mistake.  So, for Abby to just stand there and stare at Sam as though the question was out of order and for everyone else in the meeting to act like Sam farted was just a bit much.  Part of the ongoing deification of St. Abby, she who never does wrong.

I thought Amanda didn't do the residency or headed a trauma dept. but actually stole that part of the other doc's CV, too.  I seem to recall someone asking whether anyone had called to check references and it seemed like no one had.  Anspaugh knew some doc or other who worked with 'her' as part of his old boys' network and, when he asked about 'Dr Lee', got a rave review without realizing that the real Dr Lee was both Asian and male.

Abby coming to work drunk: did we see this happening in an episode or is it only something that was referred to retrospectively within the show?

If the former, what was the episode?

On 6/9/2023 at 10:25 AM, Cliffw said:

I understand them putting restrictions on him but they really treated him like some junkie instead of someone who began using after suffering from trauma.

I disagree, Carter's attitude when he left rehab stunk. He didn't regard himself as an addict, which meant he was a relapse waiting to happen. They were right to be strict.

[Cloud9Shopper]

2 hours ago, outsmartabullet said:

Abby coming to work drunk: did we see this happening in an episode or is it only something that was referred to retrospectively within the show?

If the former, what was the episode?

I disagree, Carter's attitude when he left rehab stunk. He didn't regard himself as an addict, which meant he was a relapse waiting to happen. They were right to be strict.

In S14’s Owner of a Broken Heart, Abby tells Coburn that she drank at work and there is then a flashback to an earlier episode (can’t remember which one) where Abby is a hot mess in a trauma as Sam watches. Abby admits she lied about not drinking at work although I think her lie happened offscreen. But she never admitted that to Sam or apologized for it; she was hand-wringing that she was such a good person now and trying to demand Sam speak to her until Sam too caved and praised Abby for saving the day in a trauma after she got back from rehab. It was also said at one point in S14 that she was six months behind on charts and we saw her appearing to be sleeping off a hangover in an exam room. 

IMO, Abby’s attitude is no better than whatever people think of Carter. She is a liar and didn’t even bother going to AA in S14 until it was mandated (and who knows how often she was going before then; we hadn’t seen her at a meeting since S7). She was also drinking in S8 and 9 but claiming it was fine because she was “happy.” Worst of all she had a baby and got married even though she is severely mentally fragile and has no coping skills. (Even before she relapsed in S14 her tantrums with her labor, Joe’s prematurity and shrieking at Luka after he planned a wedding to try and make her happy say a lot about how horrible her mental health is.) Abby also was out getting plastered at all hours and drinking at home because she was “overwhelmed” when Joe got hurt. She would have been wiser to get a second abortion, give Joe to Luka and sign away her parental rights, or just have her tubes tied before getting pregnant to begin with. (And she also whined and moaned about the positive test in S12.) Her actions while drunk and sober hurt others and she never apologizes for it; just sulks until people take her back or baby her for being “so brave.” 

At least Carter didn’t get a woman pregnant in S6 or S7 when he was deep into his issues and then go off the deep end by being a neglectful parent. It’s part why I can’t stand Abby…not only is she a mess and her family is a mess, she *had a baby* and dragged Joe into it too. Ruin your own life all you want but then don’t have a kid. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Notabug]

5 hours ago, outsmartabullet said:

Abby coming to work drunk: did we see this happening in an episode or is it only something that was referred to retrospectively within the show?

If the former, what was the episode?

I disagree, Carter's attitude when he left rehab stunk. He didn't regard himself as an addict, which meant he was a relapse waiting to happen. They were right to be strict.

At the time Abby was in relapse, we saw plenty of episodes where she was, at the very least, hung over at work.

Abby's attitude stunk, drinking or sober.

You're right, like a lot of addicts, Carter wasn't being honest with himself initially, but he came around pretty quickly and seemingly remained sober for the rest of the series, around 9 years in real life.  Not bad.

Meanwhile, Abby was on and off the wagon multiple times; she was always a relapse waiting to happen but no one called her out on it unlike Carter.  The one time Sam asked for confirmation of her suspicions about an issue that not only jeopardized a patient, but also Sam's career; Abby acted like it was inappropriate.  

[Cloud9Shopper]

38 minutes ago, Notabug said:

At the time Abby was in relapse, we saw plenty of episodes where she was, at the very least, hung over at work.

Abby's attitude stunk, drinking or sober.

You're right, like a lot of addicts, Carter wasn't being honest with himself initially, but he came around pretty quickly and seemingly remained sober for the rest of the series, around 9 years in real life.  Not bad.

Meanwhile, Abby was on and off the wagon multiple times; she was always a relapse waiting to happen but no one called her out on it unlike Carter.  The one time Sam asked for confirmation of her suspicions about an issue that not only jeopardized a patient, but also Sam's career; Abby acted like it was inappropriate.  

Carter did have a slip where he took pills after helping Chen get through her labor and delivery and then he threw them up. Abby basically demanded he tell Kerry but didn’t have the same accountability to own up to her erratic behavior and sloppy drinking when the time came. 

I feel like that Carter’s breakdown when Benton told him that he was going to rehab no matter what was a sign that he did know he had a problem; he just more silently admitted it. Plus he did go visit Chase and discuss it. Was he too supposed to stand up in front of everyone at a staff meeting to talk about how wonderful he was and how people should just take his word for it no matter what? Just because he didn’t do what Abby did and give off “…and then everyone clapped” vibes doesn’t mean he didn’t know he had a problem. Abby just got off easy because she/Maura Tierney is the darling of the fans and was put on a pedestal by the powers that be at the time. Even today people talk about how “inspiring” Abby is and how much “growth” she had, and what an amazing actress Maura is. (I saw one comment saying Abby was the heart of the show and almost died…ER was popular before she was ever on the scene. Sure, never mind Mark or Carol or Carter…we all know it was Abby who really made the show what it was. The over the top worship of her never stops.) 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[outsmartabullet]

41 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Carter did have a slip where he took pills after helping Chen get through her labor and delivery and then he threw them up. Abby basically demanded he tell Kerry but didn’t have the same accountability to own up to her erratic behavior and sloppy drinking when the time came. 

I feel like that Carter’s breakdown when Benton told him that he was going to rehab no matter what was a sign that he did know he had a problem; he just more silently admitted it. Plus he did go visit Chase and discuss it. Was he too supposed to stand up in front of everyone at a staff meeting to talk about how wonderful he was and how people should just take his word for it no matter what? Just because he didn’t do what Abby did and give off “…and then everyone clapped” vibes doesn’t mean he didn’t know he had a problem. Abby just got off easy because she/Maura Tierney is the darling of the fans and was put on a pedestal by the powers that be at the time. Even today people talk about how “inspiring” Abby is and how much “growth” she had, and what an amazing actress Maura is. (I saw one comment saying Abby was the heart of the show and almost died…ER was popular before she was ever on the scene. Sure, never mind Mark or Carol or Carter…we all know it was Abby who really made the show what it was. The over the top worship of her never stops.) 

I personally wasn't really comparing the two, just because one character was worse doesn't take away from the flaws of the other. 

Carter's attitude when he left rehab, being rude to the guy leaving, whining to Greene about having to do standard procedure drug tests, semi-relapsing and then not telling Weaver, etc etc It wasn't someone who left rehab with a sense of humility or gratitude or anything like that, he still had a massive chip on his shoulder and felt he was above being an 'addict'. 

Granted, that scene with Chase seems to be the end of the arc to all intents and purposes? But that seemed a bit unrealistic to me, taking into account his behaviour and attitude throughout the first half of Season 7, that his addiction would never really come up again in a big way story-wise. Just one passive-aggressive interaction with Benton and he sees the light? Hmm. Obviously the writers felt they'd done enough with it.

Edited June 11, 2023 by outsmartabullet

[Cloud9Shopper]

I just sympathize more with Carter than Abby I suppose. He became an addict in the first place because he almost died at work (and Lucy was killed in the same violent manner, and he felt guilty for it), not because he decided to just shoot up when he got bored or had one bad day. He comes back to work and everyone treats him like he has the black plague rather than serious trauma and survivor’s guilt. Abby falls into a drunken relapse because she had a baby she should have never had and couldn’t cope when he got a head injury. Instead of being there for him when she was his only caregiver, she got shitfaced, blew off AA and neglected him, worked drunk and suffered almost no consequences. She kept her son, her marriage, and all her friends and had top hospitals falling at her feet to hire her. I think that’s also pretty unrealistic for someone who was only a few months sober to have the world handed to her and her shitty behavior waved away. Abby didn’t suffer the kind of trauma Carter did when she relapsed; it came out of her inability to be a mother when she needed to be. Whereas before the stabbing Carter didn’t have a pattern of reckless behavior and being totally shitty to others outside of a few one-off incidents. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Notabug]

4 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Carter did have a slip where he took pills after helping Chen get through her labor and delivery and then he threw them up. Abby basically demanded he tell Kerry but didn’t have the same accountability to own up to her erratic behavior and sloppy drinking when the time came. 

I feel like that Carter’s breakdown when Benton told him that he was going to rehab no matter what was a sign that he did know he had a problem; he just more silently admitted it. Plus he did go visit Chase and discuss it. Was he too supposed to stand up in front of everyone at a staff meeting to talk about how wonderful he was and how people should just take his word for it no matter what? Just because he didn’t do what Abby did and give off “…and then everyone clapped” vibes doesn’t mean he didn’t know he had a problem. Abby just got off easy because she/Maura Tierney is the darling of the fans and was put on a pedestal by the powers that be at the time. Even today people talk about how “inspiring” Abby is and how much “growth” she had, and what an amazing actress Maura is. (I saw one comment saying Abby was the heart of the show and almost died…ER was popular before she was ever on the scene. Sure, never mind Mark or Carol or Carter…we all know it was Abby who really made the show what it was. The over the top worship of her never stops.) 

It's particularly amazing when Abby stans talk about her being the heart of the show when MT didn't even show up until Season 6 and the show had been a massive hit for years prior to that. Her entrance actually coincides with the show's slow slide in quality and the perpetual worship of St. Abby was a big part of the decline.  Her character got way too much focus and attention and it hurt the ensemble.

[Cloud9Shopper]

7 minutes ago, Notabug said:

It's particularly amazing when Abby stans talk about her being the heart of the show when MT didn't even show up until Season 6 and the show had been a massive hit for years prior to that. Her entrance actually coincides with the show's slow slide in quality and the perpetual worship of St. Abby was a big part of the decline.  Her character got way too much focus and attention and it hurt the ensemble.

I knew I had to stop listening to the Setting the Tone podcast when during Carol’s birth episode the hosts got a hard-on for Abby showing up and basically stopped caring about Carol having her babies. Like FFS Abby is going to be the center of attention for the next 7-8 seasons; can we get back to letting Carol have the spotlight? 

Abby should have been a recurring character who became an OB and showed up every so often similar to Coburn. She would’ve been a lot easier to take as a recurring character or lesser member of the main cast like Chen or Cleo. 

[Heathen]

On 6/9/2023 at 8:30 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

The Adderall plot was one of the only times I was on Lucy’s side in her spat with Carter. (Although I wondered why she stopped taking it just based off something he said if she knew it was working for her.) It was invasive and gross and I’m glad she went back to it in the end.

The Ricky Abbott incident that led to Doug’s departure ended up causing Anspaugh to decide to close Carol’s clinic. I remember the first time I was watching on Hulu a few years back I wondered why Carol would stay with Doug and feel so loyal to him after he blew up everything she worked for. I’ve seen the whole series so I know he matures and it works out in the end, but at the time I wanted to scream at Carol to do better. 

Good to see a nod to ER fanfic! I’m still writing after two years and have a work in progress right now…almost to 70,000 words. I’m aware I have no life. 😂

She was on Ritalin, not Adderall. 

Even at the time, I thought the Joi Abbott storyline was BS. For one, the child's father knows his son is dying, but he's off on a business trip when the end comes? And Joi never mentioned him to Doug or Carol? 

I fully (all too fully) understand people's ability to self-destruct, but I still have a hard time believing that Doug finally got it together -- he was an attending, he wanted to marry Carol, they were trying to conceive -- and then blew up his world just like that. Complete with Sad Doug, Moody Doctor shots on the El. 

[Heathen]

9 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Abby should have been a recurring character who became an OB and showed up every so often similar to Coburn. She would’ve been a lot easier to take as a recurring character or lesser member of the main cast like Chen or Cleo. 

Or just stayed a nurse. She was a better nurse than an insufferably know-it-all doctor who barely managed to graduate from medical school, but less than six months later was apparently god's gift to medicine and everybody who ever met her. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

Or just stayed a nurse. She was a better nurse than an insufferably know-it-all doctor who barely managed to graduate from medical school, but less than six months later was apparently god's gift to medicine and everybody who ever met her. 

Wrong. Abby “oVeRcAMe adVerSity!” to graduate due to her impossibly hard life. No one else in any medical school in real life or on ER overcame hardship and went on to do good things. Just Abby. 

/sarcasm based off a conversation I had with a slobbering Abby fangirl elsewhere. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Dr.OO7]

9 hours ago, Heathen said:

fully (all too fully) understand people's ability to self-destruct, but I still have a hard time believing that Doug finally got it together -- he was an attending, he wanted to marry Carol, they were trying to conceive -- and then blew up his world just like that. Complete with Sad Doug, Moody Doctor shots on the El. 

Precisely why that storyline made no sense. 

19 hours ago, Notabug said:

Her entrance actually coincides with the show's slow slide in quality and the perpetual worship of St. Abby was a big part of the decline.  Her character got way too much focus and attention and it hurt the ensemble

To this day, I wonder how different the show might have been had the writers focused on all of the new characters come Season 7, in a "Next Generation" kind of way, instead of focusing solely on Abby, and in a manner that backfired--as I've repeatedly said, by the time the 6th episode in a row was all about her and her miserable life, I couldn't stand her.

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

To this day, I wonder how different the show might have been had the writers focused on all of the new characters come Season 7, in a "Next Generation" kind of way, instead of focusing solely on Abby, and in a manner that backfired--as I've repeatedly said, by the time the 6th episode in a row was all about her and her miserable life, I couldn't stand her.

And why on earth did they choose Abby, of all people? As Luka said (rather meanly, but that's a different story), she's not that pretty and not that special. 

 

[Cloud9Shopper]

18 minutes ago, Heathen said:

And why on earth did they choose Abby, of all people? As Luka said (rather meanly, but that's a different story), she's not that pretty and not that special. 

 

I agree. There are other characters who I think could have had interesting storylines too. Like Morris mentions (to Abby, because of course) in S14 that his dad died and hints they didn’t have the best relationship. Why not flesh out more of his family life and why they were estranged? I’m sure this could be done even without casting his father and having scenes between the two of them. Instead they gave him that stupid sperm donor kids storyline and showed that he had an extra nipple. (Shows how bad the writing was by S12 LOL.) 

Or better yet what about giving more airtime to Coburn‘s past with addiction? I realize you can’t get in a time machine and go back to S2 or 3 but it would have been interesting to hear what she went through after returning to work and what her life was currently like, how she achieved 12 years of sobriety. Instead they had Luka mock her for not being married (because God forbid a woman not be married in the 21st century) and acting like he and Abby were the example of a happy marriage with their unplanned baby out of wedlock and dragging her to the altar. That could have been done so much better. 

In reality ER should have ended when Mark died or when Carter departed the main cast in S11. Abby hogging the show was a huge part of the problem but the other plots and characters outside of her were poorly written or developed almost to the point of satire. This time around, I’m only watching a few episodes from S12-14 after Carter leaves and then skipping to the last season. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Heathen]

5 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I agree. There are other characters who I think could have had interesting storylines too. Like Morris mentions (to Abby, because of course) in S14 that his dad died and hints they didn’t have the best relationship. Why not flesh out more of his family life and why they were estranged? I’m sure this could be done even without casting his father and having scenes between the two of them. Instead they gave him that stupid sperm donor kids storyline and showed that he had an extra nipple. (Shows how bad the writing was by S12 LOL.) 

Or better yet what about giving more airtime to Coburn‘s past with addiction? I realize you can’t get in a time machine and go back to S2 or 3 but it would have been interesting to hear what she went through after returning to work and what her life was currently like, how she achieved 12 years of sobriety. Instead they had Luka mock her for not being married (because God forbid a woman not be married in the 21st century) and acting like he and Abby were the example of a happy marriage with their unplanned baby out of wedlock and dragging her to the altar. That could have been done so much better. 

In reality ER should have ended when Mark died or when Carter departed the main cast in S11. Abby hogging the show was a huge part of the problem but the other plots and characters outside of her were poorly written or developed almost to the point of satire. This time around, I’m only watching a few episodes from S12-14 after Carter leaves and then skipping to the last season. 

I never liked Coburn, but I would have liked a fleshed-out Dr. Dave storyline (minus the character assassination in his last episode). Or Del Amico. But definitely not St. Abby. 

I agree it should have ended when Mark died or when Carter left. And if it lasted until season 11, the writers should have given us better storylines than helicopters chasing after Romano and the mysterious case of flight nurse Chuck, who survived the helicopter crash because the other nurse wouldn't let him fly, but somehow he wasn't on the roof or in the elevator when the chopper crashed. 

[Dr.OO7]

58 minutes ago, Heathen said:

but I would have liked a fleshed-out Dr. Dave storyline (minus the character assassination in his last episode).

Him too. It would have been nice to see him get the Character Development Morris did--from annoying, incompetent fool to excellent, respected physician, instead of him never changing and being reduced to barely appearing. I remember one episode where his sole appearance was for him to be seen leaving for the day.

[ch1]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

And why on earth did they choose Abby, of all people? As Luka said (rather meanly, but that's a different story), she's not that pretty and not that special. 

 

Is it because her character was the most popular among the flood of new characters at the time? I mean if you go by season 6 Abby I can see why.  It’s season 7 and beyond that she became really unlikeable but of course in Hollywood if the public connects with something let’s shove it down their throats.
 

 

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, ch1 said:

Is it because her character was the most popular among the flood of new characters at the time? I mean if you go by season 6 Abby I can see why.  It’s season 7 and beyond that she became really unlikeable but of course in Hollywood if the public connects with something let’s shove it down their throats.
 

 

I think that is kind of a chicken or the egg situation, though.  Season 6 Abby still got way more attention when she became a regular in the last half of the season than any other non-original character.  I realize Lucy was on her way out as was Carol in the latter half of Season 6; but Abby seemingly ate up screentime from both of them, especially Lucy.  Then, Season 7 came, Carol and Lucy were both gone and Abby's character got more screentime than both of them put together.  Part of the problem was the casting of Sally Field which was a real coup for the show and definitely served as Emmy bait; but also lead to Abby overkill and, in particular, nasty, mean, awful Abby.

At least part of the reason the public 'connected' with Abby is because she was the only one of the newbies to get regular storylines.  She had at least a secondary storyline in virtually every episode, even if it meant dragging her into other characters' stories.

Poor Kerry couldn't escape her.  First Abby turns up in the delivery room when Henry is born, then she's in the NICU saving his life.  The birth of Kerry's son became All About Abby as Kerry's story was shoved aside. Finally, Kerry decides to get a hip replacement and who does she ask to be Henry's guardian?  Why, Abby, of course, even though, as far as the audience knows, hasn't even laid eyes on him since he was a newborn.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

As much as I am one of Abby’s biggest detractors I actually did like her at first when she showed up as Carol’s OB nurse and then as a med student when she was reasonably pleasant and even when she threw her ex-husband’s golf clubs and chewed him out over her med school tuition. Once Maggie showed up and then as the years went on, I couldn’t stand the way she treated family, romantic partners and coworkers/friends. It’s not the fault of Carter, Luka or anyone she works with that she had a hard childhood yet she uses her issues as an extended get out of jail free card. Not to mention her constant destructive decision-making. I’m more willing to overlook it when a character does something stupid once in a while, because they pretty much all do at points, but when it’s constant it wears thin. I also can’t stand how she throws toddler-like tantrums whenever the slightest obstacle comes her way. Just look at the way she treated Coburn and Luka in Bloodline. They’re trying to help Joe live and she shrieks in their faces and rips away her IV, carries on and shrieks more in the OR (how did Coburn not tell her to shove it during the surgery?), and is generally showing why she’s an unfit mother. But oh she’s stressed? Please. Carol, Elizabeth and Chen all had stresses during pregnancy and/or delivery and I don’t recall Carol screaming at Mark to shut up or trying to refuse treatment that would help Kate. Elizabeth accepted whatever they gave her to stop labor without acting like a toddler. Even Carla was more mature in delivery and during Reece’s time in the NICU. 

Even today I don’t understand the OTT worship Abby gets and why so many fans practically have a parasocial relationship with her or see her as some kind of role model. It’s almost weird. I mean what about someone like Jeanie, who dealt with an HIV diagnosis with minimal whining and quietly fought back to be treated as an equal? What about Carol coming back to work after a suicide attempt and sticking up for the nurses? 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[outsmartabullet]

4 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I remember one episode where his sole appearance was for him to be seen leaving for the day.

Haha yeah he had a couple of these. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

I wondered what the point was of giving Malucci a kid at the 11th hour. Did he really have one, or was he just saying it as a sympathy ploy? Was it supposed to turn into something similar to Doug in S1, about how he has a kid but knows nothing about him and never sees him? 

We’ll never know for sure but I was always like …what? 

I liked Malucci for comic relief when I was younger. We’ll see how I feel this time around when he shows up in S6. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I wondered what the point was of giving Malucci a kid at the 11th hour. Did he really have one, or was he just saying it as a sympathy ploy? Was it supposed to turn into something similar to Doug in S1, about how he has a kid but knows nothing about him and never sees him? 

We’ll never know for sure but I was always like …what? 

I liked Malucci for comic relief when I was younger. We’ll see how I feel this time around when he shows up in S6. 

Considering how compassionate he was with the child incest victim, I'm inclined to think Malucci does have a kid, and spends time with him or her. I don't think that was the only child Malucci had rapport with, either. 

[outsmartabullet]

7 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I wondered what the point was of giving Malucci a kid at the 11th hour. Did he really have one, or was he just saying it as a sympathy ploy? Was it supposed to turn into something similar to Doug in S1, about how he has a kid but knows nothing about him and never sees him? 

We’ll never know for sure but I was always like …what? 

I liked Malucci for comic relief when I was younger. We’ll see how I feel this time around when he shows up in S6. 

Probably has a kid but I doubt he's a single father or anything, just sends him money and shares parenting responsibilties. That's my take. 

Also think the main reason the writers threw it in there was to make Kerry look extra cold. It's one thing firing the guy who doesn't seem to take his job seriously but you need to make it have more stakes. 

I also think it's all bullshit by this point, because 'The Longer You Stay' was the point where the writers embarked on assassinating every character you thought you knew. 

[Notabug]

4 hours ago, outsmartabullet said:

Probably has a kid but I doubt he's a single father or anything, just sends him money and shares parenting responsibilties. That's my take. 

Also think the main reason the writers threw it in there was to make Kerry look extra cold. It's one thing firing the guy who doesn't seem to take his job seriously but you need to make it have more stakes. 

I also think it's all bullshit by this point, because 'The Longer You Stay' was the point where the writers embarked on assassinating every character you thought you knew. 

Malucci was mishandled from the start.  There was no point in giving him storylines where he was showing compassion for kids or families (the guy who was brain dead whose wife dictated a message for Malucci to read to him prior to his death.).  It seems like he had a backstory that TPTB wanted to slowly develop, but, instead, it got chucked out so they could show endless scenes of Abby and her mother screaming at each other.  

[Kel Varnsen]

22 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Precisely why that storyline made no sense. 

To this day, I wonder how different the show might have been had the writers focused on all of the new characters come Season 7, in a "Next Generation" kind of way, instead of focusing solely on Abby, and in a manner that backfired--as I've repeatedly said, by the time the 6th episode in a row was all about her and her miserable life, I couldn't stand her.

I can't remember which characters joined in season 7 and which joined after, but that is a huge "it depends" for me. Because while giving Abby most of the storylines was annoying, a lot of the stories they did for other characters was crap too. Like I am not sure there is any part of Abby's story that I hate more than than Neela's stupid I don't want to be a doctor anymore so I must work minimum wage arc. That said I would have been interested in seeing Busy Phillips have more to do, or Leslie Bibb or Glen Howerton. Instead we got a bunch of time spent on Sam, Brenner  and freakin John Stamos.

[Cloud9Shopper]

32 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I can't remember which characters joined in season 7 and which joined after, but that is a huge "it depends" for me. Because while giving Abby most of the storylines was annoying, a lot of the stories they did for other characters was crap too. Like I am not sure there is any part of Abby's story that I hate more than than Neela's stupid I don't want to be a doctor anymore so I must work minimum wage arc. That said I would have been interested in seeing Busy Phillips have more to do, or Leslie Bibb or Glen Howerton. Instead we got a bunch of time spent on Sam, Brenner  and freakin John Stamos.

That plot of Neela’s also made no sense. I totally get not knowing what you want to do with your life but I never understood how she got through undergrad, med school classes and rotations before finally saying “never mind I don’t want to be a doctor and I’m running away from my internship after five minutes!” Shouldn’t she have figured it out a lot sooner? And the fact that she got a residency at County after flaking on one internship already without any concern from County that she would do the same thing again also doesn’t line up. 

[Kel Varnsen]

9 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

That plot of Neela’s also made no sense. I totally get not knowing what you want to do with your life but I never understood how she got through undergrad, med school classes and rotations before finally saying “never mind I don’t want to be a doctor and I’m running away from my internship after five minutes!” Shouldn’t she have figured it out a lot sooner? And the fact that she got a residency at County after flaking on one internship already without any concern from County that she would do the same thing again also doesn’t line up. 

The funny thing is, out of that whole story, I don't even mind how she discovers she doesn't want to be a doctor after finishing med school. I can see that maybe this happens. What bugs me is that she decides her only other option is working at the mall. And then she doesn't even have a moment where she realizes that no she actually does love medicine. Instead it is more like she realizes that of her only two options she would prefer medicine to working at a convenience store. Which makes no sense and is super dumb.

[thefulltimedad]

17 hours ago, Notabug said:

I think that is kind of a chicken or the egg situation, though.  Season 6 Abby still got way more attention when she became a regular in the last half of the season than any other non-original character.  I realize Lucy was on her way out as was Carol in the latter half of Season 6; but Abby seemingly ate up screentime from both of them, especially Lucy.  Then, Season 7 came, Carol and Lucy were both gone and Abby's character got more screentime than both of them put together.  Part of the problem was the casting of Sally Field which was a real coup for the show and definitely served as Emmy bait; but also lead to Abby overkill and, in particular, nasty, mean, awful Abby.

At least part of the reason the public 'connected' with Abby is because she was the only one of the newbies to get regular storylines.  She had at least a secondary storyline in virtually every episode, even if it meant dragging her into other characters' stories.

Poor Kerry couldn't escape her.  First Abby turns up in the delivery room when Henry is born, then she's in the NICU saving his life.  The birth of Kerry's son became All About Abby as Kerry's story was shoved aside. Finally, Kerry decides to get a hip replacement and who does she ask to be Henry's guardian?  Why, Abby, of course, even though, as far as the audience knows, hasn't even laid eyes on him since he was a newborn.

Just chiming in here to say that sometimes we conflate Abby’s entrance to somehow a decline in Lucy’s presence on the show. They only overlapped three episodes. “Abby Road,” Tierney’s debut as a cast regular, and “BSMH and AITF,” Lucy’s exit. 

 

[thefulltimedad]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I knew I had to stop listening to the Setting the Tone podcast when during Carol’s birth episode the hosts got a hard-on for Abby showing up and basically stopped caring about Carol having her babies. Like FFS Abby is going to be the center of attention for the next 7-8 seasons; can we get back to letting Carol have the spotlight? 

Abby should have been a recurring character who became an OB and showed up every so often similar to Coburn. She would’ve been a lot easier to take as a recurring character or lesser member of the main cast like Chen or Cleo. 

Aw, I’m bummed you left! I think the STT crew always makes a big deal when a new major character is introduced. For me, those moments feel like when a comic book character makes their debut. Like when Luka strides into the ambulance bay, or Lucy walks down the El steps. It’s just something about those moments that sticks. I don’t think they were overly effusive. In fact, they acknowledge that Abby’s quite a polarizing character to the fandom. 

I think the rest of the episode was definitely dedicated to Carol’s performance. 

[Notabug]

9 minutes ago, thefulltimedad said:

Just chiming in here to say that sometimes we conflate Abby’s entrance to somehow a decline in Lucy’s presence on the show. They only overlapped three episodes. “Abby Road,” Tierney’s debut as a cast regular, and “BSMH and AITF,” Lucy’s exit. 

 

Yes, I realize that Lucy only stayed around for a couple of episodes after Abby arrived.  However, 'Abby Road' was a completely Abby-centric eppy and she also had a huge plotline in BSMH taking care of the lady whose husband had died earlier in the season.  I haven't used a stopwatch on the episodes, but, from what I recall; Abby got at least as much, probably more, camera time than Lucy; even in BSMH which was the introduction of Sobriki and set up for the stabbing.

[thefulltimedad]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Yes, I realize that Lucy only stayed around for a couple of episodes after Abby arrived.  However, 'Abby Road' was a completely Abby-centric eppy and she also had a huge plotline in BSMH taking care of the lady whose husband had died earlier in the season.  I haven't used a stopwatch on the episodes, but, from what I recall; Abby got at least as much, probably more, camera time than Lucy; even in BSMH which was the introduction of Sobriki and set up for the stabbing.

Well, yeah. It makes sense they would do a character-centric intro with Abby the same way they did with Lucy. Part of it was that Maura Tierney was a big get for the show. She had big cachet after Newsradio and Liar Liar, plus it would help soften the blow of Kellie Martin’s imminent departure to get to know Abby’s character more. 

 

As for BSMH. I don’t necessarily think the Abby plot line was huge for the sake of Abby more so than to amplify Carter’s inattentiveness to Lucy, which was a contributing factor in the stabbing. And I think both plot points were on screen for an equal amount of time. 

[ShortyMac]

3 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

That plot of Neela’s also made no sense. I totally get not knowing what you want to do with your life but I never understood how she got through undergrad, med school classes and rotations before finally saying “never mind I don’t want to be a doctor and I’m running away from my internship after five minutes!” Shouldn’t she have figured it out a lot sooner? And the fact that she got a residency at County after flaking on one internship already without any concern from County that she would do the same thing again also doesn’t line up. 

Remember, the only reason Neela got an internship spot at County was because Howard (had severe OCD) quit.

[Cloud9Shopper]

3 hours ago, thefulltimedad said:

Well, yeah. It makes sense they would do a character-centric intro with Abby the same way they did with Lucy. Part of it was that Maura Tierney was a big get for the show. She had big cachet after Newsradio and Liar Liar, plus it would help soften the blow of Kellie Martin’s imminent departure to get to know Abby’s character more. 

Part of the reason why I despise Abby is because of the amount of screen time and praise both the character and Maura Tierney get. I hate how MT is held up as this acting legend who is the only decent cast member on the show when other cast were just as talented if not moreso. I just get so sick of hearing about how amazing Maura is when other cast also give good performances and the show was popular before Abby arrived. And it seems like most of what she does as her “talent” is stick out a pouty face and shriek about the set. And she’s not even that beautiful to look at. I remember how strung out and sloppy Abby looked even pre-relapse and I was starting to wonder if the girl ever heard of a hairbrush. 

[Notabug]

29 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Part of the reason why I despise Abby is because of the amount of screen time and praise both the character and Maura Tierney get. I hate how MT is held up as this acting legend who is the only decent cast member on the show when other cast were just as talented if not moreso. I just get so sick of hearing about how amazing Maura is when other cast also give good performances and the show was popular before Abby arrived. And it seems like most of what she does as her “talent” is stick out a pouty face and shriek about the set. And she’s not even that beautiful to look at. I remember how strung out and sloppy Abby looked even pre-relapse and I was starting to wonder if the girl ever heard of a hairbrush. 

I think MT is a good actress, but she is very one note.  She plays the same mopey, unhappy, killjoy in everything she does.  Also, as you said, she did have more acting credits than the other new cast members that came aboard when she did; but the main cast who'd already been there for 5 years winning awards and producing some of the best TV of all time were not exactly in need of her help to rescue the show.  As it turns out, the focus on Abby killed the show as it was never the tight ensemble that it had been in the early years.  Instead, every plot had to have scenes for Abby.  No character could do or say anything unless we got to see what Abby thought about it.  Except for Mark and Elizabeth; Abby was intertwined in everyone else' story.

Recall when Gallant was killed and Abby was the one who got the news from the chaplain, the one who decided what to do, who told the others.  Meanwhile, Neela was hiding out behind the scenes so the demise of her husband could be Abby's story instead of hers.  

[outsmartabullet]

2 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I think MT is a good actress, but she is very one note.

She's definitely not a 'character actor'. She tends to play variations on a similar character. But she has a real presence and an ability to sell very small moments.

One of my favourite moments of hers on ER was in Greene's last 'hospital' episode where she just gave him a smile as he was leaving. That's all there was to it! but it was very affecting.

I recommend checking out her arc in Rescue Me. 

[littlebennysmom]

I can't find the comment now but someone mentioned Sally Field winning an Emmy for her performance on ER.  Ugh.  I never bought the storyline in the beginning which soured me on the character.  If anyone shrieked like that in a hospital (Aaaaaaabbbbbbyyyyyy!), especially a visitor as Abby's mother was, there is no way they'd let that continue.  All I could think was, "shut up, shut up, SHUT UP, there are people trying to recuperate and they don't need your crap!  GO OUTSIDE!"